Lunar Sea - a second bout of modness. Closed - map selection underway.

[Gregstrom]

This is a sequel to a game called Unsanity I ran some time ago, and follows the same general theme - lashings of mods.

Hosting: Llamaserver
Map: TBD, depending on interest levels
Settings: HOF 15, renaming on, graphs on, others default except maybe a couple of ticks on site frequency.
Age: EA
Mods:
Endgame diversity mod
Holy War, both parts
CPCS
Endo's site mod
CBM 1.6
Victory: Default (i.e. acclamation), unless we get enough people for something else to be viable.
Hosting will be on llamaserver (http://www.llamaserver.net)

Nation selection will as per the Unsanity game: random, with a twist. Nations will be randomly selected from a pool - each player gets to put one nation into the pool, but won't play that nation themselves.

Players (and their nation nominations)
Gregstrom (Abysia)
Strabo (Arcoscephale)
Militarist (Ermor)
Zeldor (T'ien Ch'i)
Alpine Joe (Marverni)
Burnsaber (Kailasa)
Euarchus (Pangaea)
Apsophos (Tir na n'Og)
Balaskar (Lanka)
Graeme Dice (Yomi)
GameExtremist (Ulm)
Dimaz (C'tis)
Ossa (Sauro?)

Nation Assignments:

Gregstrom.......Ulm
Strabo..........Marverni
Militarist......C'tis
Zeldor..........Abysia
Alpine Joe......Pangaea
Burnsaber.......Sauromatia
Euarchos........Kailasa
Apsophos........T'ien Ch'i
Sensori.........Vanheim
Graeme Dice.....Arcoscephale
GameExtremist...Ermor
Dimaz...........Lanka
Ossa............Yomi
Herr Heimlich...Tir na n'Og


Hosting: I intend this to be a pretty inclusive game. While I'll default to a 24h schedule, if anyone who wants to join doesn't think they can do that with regularity I'll settle for a longer hosting interval.

[Strabo]

I'll take part and throw Arco in the pool

[Gregstrom]

Done. Good to see you back in, Strabo.

[Strabo]

Good to see heavy modded games back in :)

[militarist]

Ermor to the pool

[Zeldor]

Hmm... I think I have time. I will throw in hmm... T'ien Ch'i.

[Alpine Joe]

I'll join and throw in Marverni.

[Burnsaber]

I'm in.

I'll throw Kailaisa to the pool. (We are going to run out of weak/mid level nations soon :D)


One thing about CPCS though. The "Celestial Ice" spell should be removed from the compilation mod of this game, I've meant to do a update replacing that spell for a long time, but I'm getting interrupted by new projects all the time. The Celestail Ice can be really annoying from time to time because the chill clouds kill your own troops and the AI really likes to spam it if you give it the chance to do so.

If someone is really bothered by a lack of W/S spell, I could whip something up quickly.

[Euarchus]

Hi, this would be my first multiplayer, but I'd love to give it a go. I'd like to add Pangea to the mix. Thanks.

[Zeldor]

And someone should check for conflicts and spell limit. I could never get CPCS + CBM to work together. And now it's llamas new mod.

[Gregstrom]

Spell limit should be fine - Unsanity had a bunch more spells in mods than Lunar Sea does. Other conflicts will exist, but I expect I'll be using a mod combiner script to help resolve that.

[Gregstrom]

PS: Euarchus - your account is pretty new and doesn't appear to have PMs enabled. Could you make sure they are turned on? PMs are one of the main avenues of diplomacy in MP games, and you'll probably benefit from being able to receive them.

[Apsophos]

I'd like to join this game, adding Tir na n'Og to the nations list.

[Gregstrom]

Ooh, a hint of sadism :)

[Apsophos]

I actually thought about adding some giant nation. I chose TNN because I played them recently. Oh wait, I'm still playing them, I'm not dead yet.

Hmm, I thought about adding R'lyeh too :p

[Euarchus]

Okay, I think I've enabled them. Once you've run the mod-combining script, could you post the mod(s) locations? I've got the Endgame and CBM but am having a little trouble finding the others. Cheers.

[pyg]

Okay, I think I've enabled them. Once you've run the mod-combining script, could you post the mod(s) locations? I've got the Endgame and CBM but am having a little trouble finding the others. Cheers.

Gregstrom asked me to roll the mod. Here it is and since it's so simple I don't expect there to be any problems but I have not tested it much. You do not need to download any of the mods as they are all included in this one. You do have to disable ALL other mods when using this one.

Contains:

Nations: 0
Monsters: 166
Magic Sites: 172
Weapons: 64
Armor: 30
Spells: 97
TGAs: 172

[Balaskar]

I'll sign up if you don't mind having a noob playing with you (this will be my second mp game). I'll add Lanka to the nation list

[Gregstrom]

Lanka? A powerhouse enters the nation mix... That'll make things interesting.

[Graeme Dice]

Hmmm. I'm in. Let's throw Yomi into the pot.

[GameExtremist]

Ulm!

[Gregstrom]

11 players is looking pretty good. I won't close the game just yet, but I think it's time to look at maps. Any suggestions?

[Dimaz]

I tried to resist for 2 days but I failed.
Ctis to the pot.

[Ossa]

Might I still join as Sauromatae?

[Gregstrom]

Might I still join as Sauromatae?

You can still join, certainly. And you could even give someone else the chance of playing Sauro, should you so wish.

Map-wise, Shahrivar seems about right for size. I think the one without pre-set sites would be a good plan, though.

[Herr Heimlich]

I suppose, this might not be a game suitable for Beginners in Dom3 Multiplayer? Even so, if there is still room, I´d like to join with Hinnom, have got to learn the ropes sometimes after all :D

[Gregstrom]

Greetings Herr Heimlich. As with Ossa, you might wish to read the first post carefully. There are beginners in the game already, so I'm not about to prevent you from joining.

[militarist]

Ossa, Herr Heimlich.. re-read first post, and resend your idea of the race you want to add to the pool of races. The only reason the game can be hard for newbie is that you will play for some of weakest nations you maybe never tried to play at all.

[Zeldor]

I vote against Shahrivar. I played on it, it's not balanced. Looks nice, but not so great for MP. Wraparound would be best. How many players do we have?

[Gregstrom]

Okay, Shahrivar's out. We have 12-14 players, depending on whether Herr Heimlich/Ossa get back to us. So we're looking at 180-210 land provs I think. I think I'll ban water nations at this point.


On another note:


There are enough players that it could be worth trying a Pantheon victory condition.

This is an untried idea, so I'm not inclined to put too many hard and fast rules into it - if you aren't sure why, see Overlords. The skeleton of the idea is this:

Victory doesn't have to be awarded to a single player - it can be given to a pantheon of Pretenders. A pantheon is basically a team, but it isn't pre-set at the start of the game and it can change freely during the course of the game.

In other words, everyone starts the game as an individual player and people can then group up during the game and win as a team if they wish.

In each pantheon there is a pecking order - pantheon members are ranked. The player in the number 1 slot is the Ruler of the Gods (or whatever title he wants) and gets to set the ranks of the other pantheon members and/or expel them from the pantheon.

You can leave a pantheon at any time, and you can be a member of as many pantheons as you like. Pantheon membership isn't a NAP.

A pantheon can win by acclamation, or by being the only pantheon remaining. One pantheon can't be a subset of another pantheon - you can plot to overthrow the ruler of the gods all you like, but if you're going to act on it you'll have to officially rise up against him.

Diplomacy would be extremely Machiavellian if we did this.

Thoughts, everybody?

[Herr Heimlich]

Ossa, Herr Heimlich.. re-read first post, and resend your idea of the race you want to add to the pool of races. The only reason the game can be hard for newbie is that you will play for some of weakest nations you maybe never tried to play at all.

Re-read it. Always up for a challenge, even if Ulm or some of the others may come my way :D

@Gregstrom
The idea of "Pantheon Victory" sounds fascinating. But wouldn´t Pantheon Membership needed to be announced in some way for everyone?

Edit: Oh, and after some consideration, I´d like to change the nation I submit to the pool to Vanheim.

[Gregstrom]

Pantheon membership should probably be recorded somewhere, to keep things honest. Maybe sent to a neutral third party, if one is available of course. Or possibly to a specially created email account somewhere.

On the other hand... what benefit does anybody get from being dishonest about pantheon membership?

[Euarchus]

Pantheon stuff sound good. How about Cradle of Dominion for the map? It has lots of choke points which should make things interesting.

[Herr Heimlich]

Edit2: Okay, all resolved.
On a sidenote. Does the Community Sprite Update Mod and the Streamers & Standards Mod work online regardless?

[Zeldor]

I am not sure if we want to make it even more complicated. So many new mods to learn and adding advanced victory conditions on top of that? But I have nothing against newer players allying against stronger :)

[Dimaz]

I think I'm somewhat against Pantheons, but I'll stay in both cases.

[Alpine Joe]

With so many new mods flying around, I am against the idea of pantheons. Hell, I played in Unsanity 1 and I still feel like I need time to practice with CPCS and Holy war, let alone endgame diversity mod.

[Gregstrom]

Right. Standard victory conditions then. Any other map ideas?

[Zeldor]

Glory of the Gods? but I always have bad MP luck on it :P How many players do we have finally?

[Dimaz]

When our nations are going to be assigned? I'll need some testing after that and the weekend is the best time for it.

[Gregstrom]

Nation assignments are now up.

Obvious map choices are Glory or Cradle.

Llamaserver has something called Eight Gates which might work, too.

[Burnsaber]

Is trading nations allowed?

[Gregstrom]

I hadn't thought much about it, but it feels like it'd dilute the effects of random assignment rather.

[Burnsaber]

I hadn't thought much about it, but it feels like it'd dilute the effects of random assignment rather.

Okay, no biggie. I'll just deal with Sauromatia.

:P

[Herr Heimlich]

Yeah, Tir´Na´Nog, Treehuggers, woohooo :D

Anyway, I´d vote for Glory of Dominions (Multiplayer). Looks better than 8Gates and has not gotten so much provinces that the Game might never come to a close.

[Zeldor]

Who put Sauro into the pool? And how can someone complain about getting one of the best nations in the game? :P Too bad I can't trade it from you :P

Hmm... Abysia, that's new. I wanted to play them for a while though, should be fun.

[Zeldor]

BTW, is Endo's site mod fixed? I've heard bad stories about that, like recruitable mages with autocast Darkness etc. Also people reported that it lowers the amount of magic sites appearing, even by 20-30% from what you should get [that it felt like 35%, not 55%] - if it's true, we should increase magic sites settings.

[Dimaz]

Tried some tests and there are some issues with the mods. I used the one from page 2 (combined lunarsea mod) and found holy site named "Holy Site" allowing to recruit monsters 2950-2956 (4 types, 2 units and 2 commanders) with base stats and no name.
Also, holy healing Lanka demons by blessers is fun.

[pyg]

Thanks for testing, good catch! Here is a fixed version.

Tried some tests and there are some issues with the mods. I used the one from page 2 (combined lunarsea mod) and found holy site named "Holy Site" allowing to recruit monsters 2950-2956 (4 types, 2 units and 2 commanders) with base stats and no name.
Also, holy healing Lanka demons by blessers is fun.

[Zeldor]

Hmm... I think there are some problems still. I summoned Guardian of the First Flame and he has no description at all. And no abilities [maybe he shouldn't have?] and just Fist attack.

[Herr Heimlich]

Would it eliminate some of those problems, if we´d use a mod less?

[Gregstrom]

I doubt it.

[pyg]

Hmm... I think there are some problems still. I summoned Guardian of the First Flame and he has no description at all. And no abilities [maybe he shouldn't have?] and just Fist attack.

OK, this one isn't really my fault because Guardian of the First Flame/Stone aren't defined in Priests and Sacreds, but in Holy War Divine. This means the Priests and Sacreds will have this problem if you use it on its own. IMO, the proper fix is up to Burnsaber, but I've created a new fixed version of the mod here. Thanks for all the thorough testing!

[Zeldor]

It looks like using those mods really messes with magic sites, so many turn to be holy sites [and mostly useless ones], 55% settings feels like about 30%, so we'd need to probably use 75% to even get near original magic sites amount.

[Burnsaber]

And how can someone complain about getting one of the best nations in the game?


I'm not complaining, I was just asking if I could trade. I just dislike playing with over-the-top power nations, especially with the current nation pool we have over here. It just so close to cheating you know? Like if your friend came over to play some wicked fast paced Street Fighter and you would give your quest the old stiff controller with the broken block button while keeping the new one for yourself (and abusing his inability to block with attacking relentlessly).

But anyways, most of my beef with Sauromatia directly relates to Androphag Archers. I won't get into a rant about them here, but I just realized that there is no force on earth preventing me from just refraining myself form recruiting them. So no need to switch nations anymore.


OK, this one isn't really my fault because Guardian of the First Flame/Stone aren't defined in Priests and Sacreds, but in Holy War Divine. This means the Priests and Sacreds will have this problem if you use it on its own. IMO, the proper fix is up to Burnsaber, but I've created a new fixed version of the mod here. Thanks for all the thorough testing!


Yeah, the thing is intentional. I admit that it's really clunky, but when I was making that mod, some people expressed very heavy opinions about not wanting the mod make any changes to vanilla nation, so I added the option of disabling the more "extreme" changes by splitting the mod in two. Once I get around to updating the mod (in a month? or two?), I'll combine the mods into one to avoid stuff like this.

It looks like using those mods really messes with magic sites, so many turn to be holy sites [and mostly useless ones], 55% settings feels like about 30%, so we'd need to probably use 75% to even get near original magic sites amount.

I have tested the distribution of holy sites granted by the Holy War mod twice, with values 10% and 9% of sites being holy (after the tests, I more sites uncommon/ rare, so I think it should be on about 8% now). I have no clue what the amount is with the magic sites mod. I think it adds some more holy sites too. However, I don't think that ranking up the magic site setting will help, the problem is most likely in the amount of common sites. If you rank up the magic site setting, it would just end giving more of those useless sites.

I can go through the sites on the mod on sunday evening and pump like 50% of Holy Wars and Magic Site Mods common sites into uncommon/ rare* (while I'm at it, I could disable that ridicilous autocast darkness mage site). That would correlate directly on giving 50% less "useless" sites.

*note that common sites are ridiciliously more common than the others. Pumping a site from common to uncommon is almost like disabling it for the purposes of a single game.

P.S if you found some HW sites being useless, please give feedback on the HW mod thread [link in signaure], so that I can do something about it in the next version.

[Gregstrom]

IIRC, aren't some of the sites in Holy War duplicates of ones in the Site Mod? If so, removing the duplicates would help.

I'm quite happy to bump up site % anyway.

[Zeldor]

Burnsaber:

I know you were joking :) I am rather surprised that someone put Sauro into the pool.

My complaint is not the % of holy sites, but that they are doing almost the same. It feels much harder to find magic sites now and when you try to be happy about it, you can't. You get that "Cool! Magic site!" and after that "Oh, it lets me recruit what? H1 guys? and some medium infantry troops? Where are my gems?". So my problem is that they are way too similar to each other [lame troops + some holy or H1 weak guys] and take away from your income.

Also, all that sites add troops, mages etc, but it's hard to get gold for them at default settings.

[pyg]

IIRC, aren't some of the sites in Holy War duplicates of ones in the Site Mod? If so, removing the duplicates would help.


It looks like only 6 are duplicated and they are all underwater sites. I can remove them if you like but I doubt they will make a big impact on the game.

[Burnsaber]

IIRC, aren't some of the sites in Holy War duplicates of ones in the Site Mod? If so, removing the duplicates would help.


It looks like only 6 are duplicated and they are all underwater sites. I can remove them if you like but I doubt they will make a big impact on the game.

Okay, I went through the mod. I disabled the "autocast darkness" mage site and disabled some of the most boring HW holy sites to prevent everyone from drowning in templars. I also went through the magic site mod and moved up all common sites that gave just recruits and no gems in rarity.

With the changes I made, I think we should roll with like 55% magic site setting to get the gem income of a normal game. The attached file contains just the .dm file.

[Zeldor]

I will test it tomorrow and try to check most of summons etc and how it looks at 55% site settings.

[Zeldor]

Ok, few things:

1. Is Call Zealous Blood supposed to summon just 1 guy? Probably yes.

2. That mod seems to mess with graphics at least. Wendigo comes with graphics for Guardian of the smth. Some of them regain proper graphics when improving to better forms. But get back to it on anotehr upgrade... Or maybe those are not guardians graphics? Anyway, something different.

3. Same happens with Treants.

4. There is magic site Temple of the First Tear uw that lets you recruit Sea Father only, not the 2nd guy it is supposed to. Maybe other sites have same problems?

5. Other summons seem to be working fine. Those guardians too.

[Gregstrom]

1. Yes.
2. Okay, as long as this doesn't affect the functionality of the unit this isn't too bad.
3. Ditto.
4. This is more annoying.
5. Cool.

[Burnsaber]

Ok, few things:


Okay, I'll take a look. When I did my version, I just disabled sites from pyg's latest version, and did nothing else.

If those bugs are singular cases, I'll fix them. But if they effect a wider range of stuff, I'll leave it to pyg. I just don't have time at the moment to deal with a mod of this size.


1. Is Call Zealous Blood supposed to summon just 1 guy? Probably yes.


Yes. I admits it's not that hot (just situationaaly useful), but nations that have B/H priests really don't need the help :D.

[Gregstrom]

Oh, how come EA Ulm doesn't get a H2 priest under Holy War?

[Burnsaber]

Oh, how come EA Ulm doesn't get a H2 priest under Holy War?

Likely because I don't want to boost mage-priests in HW, because it just feels too easy. Like getting your cake and eating it too. What incentive do you have to recruit H2 priests if you just get them as a bonus when you recruit your mages? Some mage-priests actually lose some holy magic in HW because of this.

I could boost the older shaman to H2 if people want me to, but IMHO I'd rather avoid any last-minute changes. You are the admin (and thus the boss), though, so if you just say so, I'll beef them up.

[Gregstrom]

Oh, that explains it. Ulm not having any H2s is annoying, but I understand your reasoning now.

[pyg]

Ok, few things:

1. Is Call Zealous Blood supposed to summon just 1 guy? Probably yes.

2. That mod seems to mess with graphics at least. Wendigo comes with graphics for Guardian of the smth. Some of them regain proper graphics when improving to better forms. But get back to it on anotehr upgrade... Or maybe those are not guardians graphics? Anyway, something different.

3. Same happens with Treants.

4. There is magic site Temple of the First Tear uw that lets you recruit Sea Father only, not the 2nd guy it is supposed to. Maybe other sites have same problems?

5. Other summons seem to be working fine. Those guardians too.

OK, I fixed the sprite problem (#newmonster now has 14 regex targets!), but I can see no reason why Temple of the First *** wouldn't let you recruit the unit as I can find nothing wrong. Does it list that unit in the site description? I also backported Burnsaber's changes. So much for simple...

[Burnsaber]

I did a quick test with the pyg's new version. Seems to be working like a charm. I couldn't either find any plausible source for the Guardian of the First Tear bug. I think that we can deal with one unique uncommon holy site just giving Sea Fathers and 2 water gems :P.

I also did a small test with the appearance of the holy sites. I conquered 46 provinces and searched them all for holy. I found 10 holy sites (9 common and 1 uncommon). I had two common holy sites as duplicates, but they produced gems, so it wasn't so bad.

[Zeldor]

That site is fine, it was simply invisible - unit looks exactly like background, so I missed it, sorry for the problem :)

Holy sites seem to be fine now, not too common. So let's create the game on llamaserver, we can choose map while people are uploading pretenders.

[Gregstrom]

The game's up, everybody!

[Herr Heimlich]

So, what map to take?

[Gregstrom]

Unless there's some sudden objection, Galadia (as per the game page on llamaserver) will be the map for the game.

[Zeldor]

A bit tight...

[Burnsaber]

A bit tight...

Which is always better than too sparse. We are not here to play solitaire, right?

[Zeldor]

It's surely not bad for me :)

[Herr Heimlich]

So, 7 of 14 in. Will the first few turns be played in one sitting? Ore will we start turn/day from the first onward?

[Gregstrom]

Given we're working across time zones, I don't want to try fast-tracking the first few turns. Standard quickhosting will apply, so as long as people get early turns in quickly things will move at a decent pace.

[Burnsaber]

I'm terribly sorry for the bother, but I got a sudden chance to join in on a road trip for a grand boardgaming event. Seeing the glamour of a weekend of pizza, lack of sleep and Twilight Imperium, I had no chance but to agree.

If the game starts on the weekend, could the fisrt turn be extended to Monday evening?

[Gregstrom]

Sure thing. Enjoy yourself :D

[Gregstrom]

13 of 14 players now uploaded... Only Ossa to go.

[Herr Heimlich]

He still hasn´t.

[Gregstrom]

I pmed him a reminder a little while ago, so I suppose I can give him a day or two before just kicking the game off anyway.

[Ossa]

Ups - sorry;)

[Zeldor]

My comment on starting location is 'lol, wtf?'. Did anyone check the map and at least make some no-starts? Can I request restarting the game and doing so?

[Herr Heimlich]

My comment on starting location is 'lol, wtf?'. Did anyone check the map and at least make some no-starts? Can I request restarting the game and doing so?

Could you elaborate?

[Dimaz]

Well, 2 neighbors for a starting prov is a bit extreme. I can live with it, however *evil demon smile*.

[Alpine Joe]

yeah this is pretty ridiculous. I recommend a restart.

[Zeldor]

Yeah, swamp with 2 neighbours. And I need resources.

[Gregstrom]

That's not good. I'll get it sorted.

[Gregstrom]

Okay, try this...

[Zeldor]

Looks good.

[Dimaz]

Warning to everyone: you should delete your sent 2h file from game folder before doing new one or select "redo from start", or we will face horrible bugs next turn due to messed unit ids.

[Ossa]

Why has my email address been changed? I did submit my turn:(

[Gregstrom]

I changed Yomi's email address at Graeme Dice's request - and I've just realised I should have changed Arco's. Sincere apologies :( I'll put your email back as soon as you PM it to me.

[Burnsaber]

I'm sorry for begging for extension again, but I'm at my folks right now and their stupid IE is not letting me to download the turns. I really have to go to work soon and I really don't have the time to deal with #¤%/"%&(! stupid browser.

24h plz?

[Zeldor]

Don't use IE.

[Gregstrom]

I'll slap on 24h.

[Balaskar]

I'll be out of town until monday. I know it's a long time. Any chance of getting an extension?

[Gregstrom]

It's Easter, so sure.

[Dimaz]

Vanheim has 2 stales already.

[Gregstrom]

Dammit. I'll see what can be done.

[Gregstrom]

Steps have been taken - we'll see what occurs.

[Balaskar]

Hey all,

I apologize for staling so much. RL has gotten unexpectedly busy the last week, and does not look like it is going to let up any time soon (my son has been very ill).

I'll post and see if anyone is interested in taking over for me. Sorry for making the game unbalanced.

[Burnsaber]

Turn 6 and three stales? Ouch. I'm not sure if anyone is going to pick that one up for subbing.

For the best of the game, I could perhaps take over the nation. Not an ideal solution because I'm a player in the game*, but finding a sub for Sauromatia would probably prove a lot more succesful. People love their power nations. This suggestion is of course made with assumption that no one has show intrested in subbing Vanheim. Ideal solution would of course be finding a sub outside the game.

*the issue would be of course my inside knowledge of the Sauromatia, but I would be playing Vanheim with three stales, so I'm not really sure if it would matter. I'd be dead anyway if we happen to meet each other.

[Sensori]

Turn 6 and three stales?

Bah, I took an Ulm with 15 stales under its belt around turn 50ish elsewhere.

HOOK ME UP!

[Zeldor]

I don't think Van position is salvagable, I know his location.

[Sensori]

I don't care, HOOK ME UP! :mad:

[Gregstrom]

Okay, I'll hook you up. PM me your email address and it's all yours.

A 24 hour extension is in place for Sensori's sake.

[Gregstrom]

Okay, the extension has been retracted as being unnecessary. Please get your turns in as per the normal schedule.

[Herr Heimlich]

Anyone mind me asking a few questions?

As far as I remember, we just go by Acclamation victory, do we? I´m just asking, because I wondered why there are Victory Points on the map?

Another thing. The expansion of some players territory according to the score tables is simply awesome and frightening at the same time. Is this normal? Or are some of us (me included) just slow? And this is without speaking of the research according to the score table. I mean, Tien, Arco and Yomi all have research over 150?! At turn 8?! Did I miss something here?!

[militarist]

Herr Heimlich,I'll give you a hint. Read Baal'z Hellheim guide. You will know how you can have fast and early research.

[Graeme Dice]

Well, for Arcoscephale, the research comes from philosophers. They are research 8 in a sloth 3 dominion, and cost 50 gold each. The expansion rate comes from mercenaries and a dragon.

[rdonj]

Anyone who started with an awake research pretender could easily have 150 research by turn 8.

And yeah some of you are going a bit slow. You should really have a minimum of one province a turn expansion by the end of the first year.

[Apsophos]

And this is without speaking of the research according to the score table. I mean, Tien, Arco and Yomi all have research over 150?! At turn 8?! Did I miss something here?!

Research pretender, yes. I often do that. It's no big deal, the advantage tends to fade out in favor of those players who have more provinces/castles/gold.

As for expansion, it took me quite some games to learn to have the acceptable rate I have here. Did you read the guide about Tir na n'Og and do some quick tests in SP?

[Sensori]

If you're looking at Vanheim's expansion speed, stop looking at it right now. It's in no way comparable to everyone else due to the 3 stales by the original player and the fact that I had to build an expansion army myself from scratch since the other one was wiped out due to an unfortunate accident with freaky indie mobs and lavamen! :p

[Herr Heimlich]

[...]
Did you read the guide about Tir na n'Og and do some quick tests in SP?

I did the latter but could only find a guide about Eriu. So, not much to be found there...

[militarist]

It looks like wars have started. Bloody Lanka is eating demons of Yomi, but who has attacked Arco, with it's awake Dragon and perfect lands?

[Zeldor]

I know everything, I can sell info for cheap :)

[Apsophos]

I did the latter but could only find a guide about Eriu. So, not much to be found there...

That must be the one I used for my TNN game, maybe that's why I did so bad. It covers the use of sidhe lords though.

[Zeldor]

Anything interesting happening? IT looks like Pan killed Marv, Lanka killed Yomi. Who is killing TC?

[Gregstrom]

Lanka killed Yomi? There must have been some hot demon-on-demon action going on there.

[Dimaz]

Not much.

[Gregstrom]

Another dream crushed...

[Herr Heimlich]

2 out already? Is this a fast pace? Or is such a thing common?

[Zeldor]

Normal

[Euarchus]

I've been trying to get in contact with Palaskar of Vanheim - can't find his account. Does he have one?

[Zeldor]

Vanheim is played by Sensori now. Gregstrom should update first post :)

[Euarchus]

Thanks

[Herr Heimlich]

Is it just me or will Pangea and Maeverni get a stale turn this round?

[Gregstrom]

We'll see in 15 minutes' time...

[militarist]

Yeah, some moment it had to happen.. Being between Sauro and Lanka is not the best kind of fate. Lanka has declared war to our nation. And though we believe our sauromancers and alive phoenix in defencive war will keep Lanka busy for some turns, some help from other Lanka neighbors would be appreciated.

[GameExtremist]

I'm having trouble viewing two of my battles this turn (same thing happened last turn with one, let it slide though)

The error message is - " nagot gick fel!"
"myloadmalloc: can't open./mods/./lunarsea/dmgtga102.tga"

Can somebody help me with this?

Would love to see the battles.

[Zeldor]

Check if you have those files where it says, maybe you just downloaded fixed mod with .dm file but without graphics?

[GameExtremist]

Problem solved you were right Zeldor : )

[Herr Heimlich]

Maeverni and Pangea only ones missing. Another stale coming up for them?

[Zeldor]

Marverni is pretty much dead, someone could set them AI.

[Gregstrom]

Yeah - 0 provs and 1 fort is basically dead. They should be gone soon though.

[Zeldor]

It looks like Pan wants to own us all. He killed Marv, has best research, income and army size... interesting.

[Zeldor]

Abysia will buy water gems. 1:1 for fire. Or we can sell blood slaves at good ratio.

[Apsophos]

Damn. Staled again. All these summoners sitting idle instead of going back to research...

[Dimaz]

I think Holy3 zero-research Charm for sacreds is a bit too much, probably as an anti-unit spell it's OK, but it really hurts when equipped thugs are converted by 0-res spell. Enslave mind effect seems more appropriate.

[Burnsaber]

I think Holy3 zero-research Charm for sacreds is a bit too much, probably as an anti-unit spell it's OK, but it really hurts when equipped thugs are converted by 0-res spell. Enslave mind effect seems more appropriate.

Well, you got unlucky with your mr 16 thug. Remember that it is mr-negates easily. A good comparison on rarity is getting a no-penetration "mr-negates" spell affect a mr 20 unit. Holy is also a very difficult path to boost and thus get penetration for. Once you have access to Rune Smashers and Void Eyes, it's just more effective to put them on "real" mages. H3 mage with Smasher and Void Eye is just "charmer" with no boosts. Also, IMHO, you over-equip your rakshasha thugs. There is a point where additional items just make the unit more expensive without adding much of a function. Hence the "hurt" when you lost them.

And if your opponent is spamming (usually very expensive) H3 mages, well.. He is not recruiting mages. And I think we all know what happens when you do that.

[Dimaz]

Well, it's true that I talk from the events in this game, but IMHO currently the spell is not balanced in general. Of course when you reach charm and all boosters you will probably have better success using real mages. But in my tests 1 H3 + skellyspam for example was guaranteed to convert 1 MR18 commander within 50 turn limit, so it's not that rare (of course, in the particular situation in current game it's completely my fault as I knew test results before losing my thugs and still lost them). Also, as noted by Kuritza in private communication, with H3 0-res the AI really don't have much choice of what to cast, so it just keeps spamming this until MR fails.

[Burnsaber]

Well, it's true that I talk from the events in this game, but IMHO currently the spell is not balanced in general. Of course when you reach charm and all boosters you will probably have better success using real mages. But in my tests 1 H3 + skellyspam for example was guaranteed to convert 1 MR18 commander within 50 turn limit, so it's not that rare


"+ skellyspam" -> entails how many D mages? 4? 6? 8? You really need a lot of them to keep a thug busy for 50 turns. So if a horde of mages can kill a thug, I don't see balance issue. It's just how dom3 works. Mages kill thugs. I'd also think that the specific situation of having a squad of D mages and H3 facing off against a thug is not "common". I also think that having a good counter for thugs in a mod that encourages people to take blesses is a good countermeasure. But I admit that the spell might be a bit too much as a 0-research spell. I'll probably make it researchable and move/create some another spell to take its place. I need to tweak with the spells anyway to reduce spell slot use.

[Dimaz]

It depends on constr level but actually 4 should be enough early on. My tests were with H4 prophet, H3 LK and 4 D3-D4 mages and the usual scenario was paralyzing and then charming 2 thugs. I can suggest changing zero-research effect to enslave mind (and probably upping to H4) and creating another spell around level 6 with current effect, that will more or less balance it as an interesting anti-sacred-SC tactic.

[militarist]

Ok, my opinion, is that if it's OP, it is not much OP in the context it can be used in reality.
H3 is not a kind of a path that many races have access to. Usually those nations which have H3 are not bless-rush nations. So early in a game it's just helps them resist thug - spamming nations. And ability of the nation to spam thugs in early game makes it much more imbalanced.

But I don't see a crime in increasing value of H path. It's done exactly because H3 costs a lot, but has very strong limitation in usage during each game stage. And if it helps human-sized nation to resist early rush of giants or demons (and, I agree with Burnsaber, shield + band would be already quite enough, just make more thugs).

And who complains? Classy case with Lanka, with S9 bless against which Ctis just can't have ANY chance in early game. Bad bless units, tramplers just don't work against S9. How Ctis could fight against these thugs at all? So in this situation this , quite unreliable in most of situations, spell just made death of Ctis slower.

How the nation with no thugs can fight early game with thugs at all? It can't counter attack effectively PD defended provinces, it can't send thug against thug, mages have no access to real spells yet. I think it's just a ballanicing answer.

And moving the spell higher in research will not help a lot. When you use such unit for expansion, it's not an effective investment. And you justdon't meet equipped thugs. And you rarely will choose hiring H3 priest instead of mage, unless you have Ermor or Lanka neigbour. Or, with this spell, maybe also giant nations. And how can you use these hired H3s other then fighting 1 nation? No flexebility at all in comparison to mages - no sitesearching, no research, no summoning.

So this spell defenitely doesn't make H3 human-sized nation an overkill. The nation which is not humansised and has H3 will always have a better choice what to hire (it will just hiring thugs or mages to research alteration/cons and do forging/sitesearching).

P.S. Just an idea came to mind...How would this spell work in communion, if cast by master? Will it be several charms for one turn, with increased penetration because of communion's level? If it will, than it can be a danger. But when you have a communion army, you usually have quite nice research anyway.

[Zeldor]

Yeah, C'tis H3 guys are so overpriced even in CBM. And just smite for that price never justified the price. Even with Chastisse they are not something you'd pick over a mage that can research and cast spells.

[GameExtremist]

Well that was annoying being told of losing an important battle yet watching the replay and winning decisively on the actual replay...gotta take the good with the bad I guess.

[Zeldor]

Maybe you have wrong mod or smth.

[Zeldor]

I will need extension for next turn [after this one hosts]. I am getting out for weekend and I will be back on Tuesday. Whole Finland will be drunk too, so no way to get a temp sub :)

[Dimaz]

While we're at it, can you please delay current turn by 1 hour?

[Gregstrom]

Delay i nplace.

[Zeldor]

Hey, my turn is in, I should be the last one, but I'm not...

[Zeldor]

There were some stales recently, I won't object to for example 36h hosting if needed. And at least change notifications to 10 or 12h, so people don't go to bed thinking there is lots of time to play the turn.

[Burnsaber]

Yeah, sorry about my stale. I lost the key to my apartment and thus was not able to reach my computer in time.

[Dimaz]

48h would be even nicer, the start was lightning fast compared to other games I usually play in (I prefer slower ones), but now I already have some trouble making the turns in time. And 36h isn't going to change much as I usually have some 1-1.5 h a day to make the turns, at the same time (evening).
Burnasaber, I'm really sorry you staled, as I know how painful it can be in your position. Fortunately your forces were quite capable of defending themselves even without your attention this turn :)

[Gregstrom]

I'm happy enough to go to 36 or 48 hours, but I'd like to hear more opinions before making the change, just in case there's a tidal wave of vocal opposition.

[Apsophos]

I'm ok with either 36 or 48 hours.

[Alpine Joe]

I favor 36 hours but with a 9 or 12 hour warning so I don't miss the turn during the sleep period.

[Gregstrom]

Interval is now at 36h. Shout enough for 48h, and it shall be applied.

[Dimaz]

Please add some extension to the current turn too (15h if possible).

[Gregstrom]

Done.

[Dimaz]

It seems we're still at 24h schedule.

[Gregstrom]

True - odd... I'll put it in again.

[Dimaz]

Guys, I'm having some sickness (38.5C) and cannot do the turn due to it, please add 24h, cause staling in current position will be very very bad. I'll do the turn as soon as possible in this situation.

[Gregstrom]

Done. Best of luck both with getting well and with your in-game situation.

[Dimaz]

Gregstrom, I'm still unable to do the turn as I just can't look at the display for more than 10 minutes without my eyes exploding. Can you just add 48h now and I'll finish when I can? And thanks for your concern.

[Gregstrom]

48h added on. Alternatively, try playing the turn with your eyes closed :p

[Sensori]

Eyesplosion for the win! :D

But meh, get well soon etc, the sooner the better so we can continue. :p

[Zeldor]

Sure, your health is more important. So get better and lose your war after that :P

[Dimaz]

I'm not going to lose the war ) Thanks everyone...

[Dimaz]

I'm a bit better and hope to finish the turn tonight.

[Dimaz]

Well, after all it seems I'n going to lose the war :) If anyone else is interested, you can join fighting the Aby - cause now I'm fighting with 2 major nations without any support and going to lose eventually.

[Apsophos]

Well, after all it seems I'n going to lose the war :) If anyone else is interested, you can join fighting the Aby - cause now I'm fighting with 2 major nations without any support and going to lose eventually.

I'd join you as soon as I get rid of Ulm and TNN.
Oh, message to all players considering launching an early war: be sure to finish it quick or it's a lose-lose situation. (well, a lose-lose-lose situation in this case)

[Dimaz]

I have to ask again about moving to 48h. During the week I won't be able to follow 36h schedule anymore.

[Gregstrom]

Well, it's ok by me. If anyone has strident objections, make them heard now.

[Dimaz]

Please also add 12h to current turn (so it will be 48h).

[Zeldor]

I don't object, killing Lanka will require some good planning :) I hope he uses his time on something else than trying to kill me though.

[Gregstrom]

12 hours, no objections, interval changed to 48h.

[Alpine Joe]

A tragic computer death has left me without access to dominions, and while a new one is on the way, I may be unable to do turns for another two weeks or so. Unless everyone is okay with delaying the game, which I doubt, and don't want to force on people, I will post a thread looking for a temporary sub. In the meantime, would it be possible to get a temporary delay on this turn while I try to locate a sub?

[Gregstrom]

I've put in 48 hours, and I'll add more if needed.

[Dimaz]

Maybe we should just pause the game as Pan player is going to replace his computer by the weekend? Personally I hate stales and prefer to wait for a couple of days, but of course it depends on his position - he's not very active lately...

[Gregstrom]

I'd be happy to wait for a couple of days also. There's the added twist that I'm going to be without net access from Thursday until Monday, so I'll probably want to get a sub or pause the game until then.

[Zeldor]

Yeah, I have no problem with the pause, I hope I won't forget what I have to do :P

[Gregstrom]

Argh, dammit! Apologies, Alpine Joe. I updated llamaserver and it promptly hosted anyway.

[Dimaz]

Hehe, surprise surprise :)
Battleships loaded with demon hordes arrived just in time ;)

[Zeldor]

Well done. I was wondering if I should move my army from there. I needed meatshields, which are hard to put there with no direct border :P Anyway, good think that I attacked you - you are way too strong :)

[Alpine Joe]

Hey All.
Sorry for holding up the game, but I have good news. My new computer arrived a day ahead of schedule, so we can resume normal hosting. thanks everyone for your patience.

[Zeldor]

Oh, end of weekend break, I will do my turn soon :)


BTW, anyone interested in joining Preponderance 2? Maybe Dimaz and Alpine Joe? You could make a team :)

[Gregstrom]

Win this and Utopia quickly, and I'll join Prepo 2.

[Zeldor]

Oh, Lunar Sea may last a while. How about just Utopia, next turn? :)

[Gregstrom]

It's a start ;)

[Dimaz]

Don't worry too much, I'll win soon :)
About more games, sorry, but I don't join during spring/summer as I'll likely be without Internet access for a few weeks in July/August and I don't like staling and subs, except for Kuritza but now he's not here also.

[Alpine Joe]

I would actually be up for playing in Prepo 2

I will post in that thread.

[Zeldor]

Greg:

Fix hosting time :P Anyway, I can do the turn tomorrow, not today, so don't fix it too much.

[Gregstrom]

Hosting time is fixed (but because I did it this turn, he deadline hasn't changed). Could people get their turns in ASAP, please?

[Dimaz]

Guys, please, tell me, how is it possible to miss with magic duel???
battle log:

...
(placing Zeldor's Golem)
auto placement player 8
deploycom Frateborn at 6 15
...
(casting md)
com Dimaz cast spell (favspell Magic Duel) (mayusegems 1)
...
(Golem targeted)
castspell: cnr504 spl271 (Magic Duel) vis3 x6 y15 spldmg999
vis 3 xvis 2
...
(md lands 1 square above Golem)
blastsqr: unr8294 x6 y14 aoe1 dmg999 eff27 spc1082130560 as10225 al9
...

[Zeldor]

I thought it was a draw, but it was also a bit "wtf" situation, huh... you can't draw with 7 levels more.

[Dimaz]

It wasn't a draw since both die in that case. It was MISS. So, wtf.

[Dimaz]

If you look more close, you'll see the difference in the spell effect position for 1st and second cast.
Losing Dakini and 12 storm demons due to bug seems rather annoying.

[ano]

Looks like a very weird bug\wtf and should be perhaps posted in the bug thread.

[Zeldor]

I see it targeted x6 y15 and it hit x6y14, pretty weird. Oh right, I forgot I cut off retreat routs there, so Dakini died. But don't you have like tens of them? :) At least you killed my Arch Devil in another battle somehow... I hope that at leasat your blood economy is going down recently.


castspell: cnr504 spl271 (Magic Duel) vis3 x6 y15 spldmg999
vis 3 xvis 2

blastsqr: unr8294 x6 y14 aoe1 dmg999 eff27 spc1082130560 as10225 al9

[Dimaz]

He was killed perfectly legitimate by several imps since he had 200 fatigue after FS casting.
Also it doesn't actually matter how many Dakinis I have as losing one to bug is annoying in any case.

[Zeldor]

Yeah, I did not expect so many B guys there.

I think that missed MD may be similar to some reports about missed self-blessings. You should search the forums [and report the bug].

[Dimaz]

Is there any chance of rehosting the turn? Because not only I lost Dakini and demons, but also the whole purpose of the trap (and it was a trap, obviously) was broken by the bug. Hunting Golems is a tricky task, and I'm sure Zeldor won't make the same mistake again, so in fact I lost about 100 blood and also all the efforts on preparation and executing the trap, and it really hurts. And, after rehost, poor Arch can suddenly get better fate :)

[Zeldor]

Rehosts tend to do bad things though. Create lots of mess. But it's easy to talk when I'm not the one that suffered :) But I call it revenge - for all golems that died to turn50 limit :D

[Dimaz]

Rehosts surely tend to produce mess. However, if you stick to simple rules: 1) host immediately after rollback so no-one can send corrected turns and 2) delete 2h after you receive rehosted turn, the mess is minimal or absent. Unfortunately, rule 2 requires cooperation from all players while rule 1 can be applied by admin alone.

[Gregstrom]

I'm not inclined to run a rehost over this.

[Dimaz]

Great, thanks.
AFAIK Zeldor actually got2-turn rollback once. Well, nevermind.

[Sensori]

Yeah, you lost a few blood slaves, big deal. Seriously. No one else's gonna want a rehost just because of that. Hardly game breaking. :mad:

And to Ermor, in Ganon's undying words: IT BURNS!!!!!

[Dimaz]

I lost not only slaves, but important strategic point as well, as I said. It's easy to judge when you're not the one who suffered as mentioned earlier. Anyway, I just don't want to turn this into another drama thread, so I'm stopping here.

[Burnsaber]

Just to clear some possibly bad air here, I'd like to state why people are generally against rollbacks due to "minor"* bugs like this. It's not due to your current position in the game, but rollbacking is widely known to cause more bugs and odd behaviour to appear. It can easily lead to a vicious circle.

And it should be noted that this game is buggy and there really is nothing for us to do except to accept it. If games were rolled back everytime someone unjustly lost something to a bug, it would really lenghten games.


* minor = not gamebreaking in these kinds of cases

[Dimaz]

There are known bugs and unknown bugs. For known bugs, usually there are some workarounds. For example, from now on I'll script 1 more prec-100 spell then needed to do the task, if possible. But when unknown bug destroys some good plan (and I consider laying a trap for fully equipped golem a good plan), it's annoying as hell. On the other hand, rollback bugs are ALWAYS connected to someone using 2h files from another version of the same turn, as it's the only possible reason for them (there is no other information that other version of the turn existed at all). So if the players cooperate, there are no problems with rollbacks at all. I know what I'm talking about as I hosted dom games manually before Llamaserver appeared.

[Zeldor]

99% of bugs are because of wrong .2h file, but then it's not a bug anymore, it's closer to cheating [well, people can get sloppy too]

How about I retire this Golem? Send him home and not use against you any more. He should have died after all [but I'm sure everyone has many "should have" moments in dom history]. I know I'd be unhappy in your position too.

[Gregstrom]

It's probably no comfort, but the bug with prec-100 spells is a known issue I think. I remember seeing it mentioned previously in the forums, and saw it myself in an MP battle a couple of days back. The miss chance is vanishingly small, too.

I'm against rollbacks in all but the most extreme circumstances - there have been enough games in these forums where rollbacks have caused more grief than they've cured, and I've no wish to inadvertently add to that total.

[Dimaz]

Zeldor, nevermind. You'll probably crush me soon, golem or not; most of my feelings are already expressed in private IM talk with Kuritza ;) so I'll become calmer soon. I still have couple of surprises for you, so don't worry too much - your golem won't be able to cheat "death" forever :)

[Zeldor]

Oh well, yeah, I wish all that Setsumi never happened, so many wrong things from all sides there... not a best example of MP game :P

My Golems usually have bad luck, I remember losing 3 Golems one turn to turn50 limit. All against routing enemies. So I have some trauma here and I was hesitant to summon any here :D But after you got one, I decided to give it a try too :)

And you did not storm my fort, I am disappointed :(

Too bad we don't have proper border, so I can't bring my mages in. But maybe it's more interesting this way...

[Dimaz]

Please add 24h for this turn.

[Gregstrom]

Done :)

[Dimaz]

I'll be away for 3 days and finding a sub makes little sense now, please add 48h for this turn.

[Zeldor]

My weekend is really busy, so I'm happy with more time too :)

[Gregstrom]

48 hours added to the timer.

[GameExtremist]

Well I'm almost done (Ermor) I went for a pure scales strategy rather then a decent pretender, very early on I encountered Kailasa who tried to rush me with his WNSA blessed Sacreds, he was damn near successful till I had enough fire mages simply to hurl fire at his lines and try to kill enough before they shredded me...in essence we had a stalemate and so destroyed either of our nations chances at making it to the late game.

Kudos to Vanheim for taking advantage of the situation...who now has most of mine and Kailasa old territories.

Good Game!

[Zeldor]

Someone should turn KAilasa AI, really...

[Gregstrom]

Yep.

[Sensori]

Kudos to Vanheim for taking advantage of the situation...who now has most of mine and Kailasa old territories.

My intention was only to aid Kailasa, with whom I had sort of good relations, until I realized just how badly the war had been going for him after quite a few turns of reassuring me that he's going to win it any day now... And then he started staling. Not much point to let him go on at that point.

Of course, from your point of view, the reasoning behind what has transpired doesn't matter, it's the outcome. :p You did well in your war with Kailasa, too bad it had to end this way.

[Dimaz]

Most probably I'll need another 24h to finish this turn. If possible, please delay the hosting :)

[Gregstrom]

Done.

[Dimaz]

Pangaea has 2 stales in a row. I think we should do something.

[Zeldor]

Yes, I PMed Gregstrom before last hosting, but he did not postpone, he must have missed it.

Alpine Joe must have some technical difficulties, I think we should put a game on hold till he gets back. Or find a temp sub.

[Gregstrom]

It was my birthday yesterday, so online time was pretty limited. I'll put in delays at some point.

Also, TC staled. While they're pretty much out of it, it'd be nice to know if this was unintentional or if they're wanting to go AI.

[Dimaz]

It seems Pangea already sent this turn.

[Zeldor]

Dimaz:

How is our war going? Any thoughts? I see you have Mandehas now :) And your cap seems to be a bit depopulated...

[Dimaz]

Gregstrom, happy birthday, BTW :)

[Dimaz]

True and true. So what? Do you want to finish the game? I'm not ready yet..

[Zeldor]

Finish? Nah, not at all. I am just curious how it looks from your side. I expected heavy raiding of my water provs earlier, it's hard to keep them really. And storm demons proved to be really effective. And spamming horrors less effective than expected.

[llamabeast]

Any Endgame Diversity stuff happened in this game? I'm itching to hear any reports.

[Zeldor]

My Zmeys got totally owned by Lanka. Asynjas did not fair well. I am using Ember Lords now, Dimaz will be able to tell smth about them soon :D

P.S. Fix Prepo!

[Dimaz]

It's hard to raid water due to 1) horrors keep turning them to indy 2) demonic raiders are too vulnerable and so not cost-effective. I hoped for better performance of servants, seems I underestimated your horror&MH-spamming capability. I don't think I'll be able to keep the water without raiding capability of your level and without SB mages it seems hard to achieve.
Storm demons are good but it's not possible to use them alone as any L immune thing kills them, so they can't be used as raider or even anti-raiders, too. They are great as army support, however. The best archers in the game, probably.
Spamming horrors and manifestations may seem not so effective because I already had this scenario in other games and know how to counter it. However, this increses MM to hell levels, as I have to review every order for every commander several times a turn and invent strange order sequences to be able to deal with manifestations and army buffs/thugging at the same time. Most annoying.
Overall, unless Pan has some really good ideas, I think the game is decided already. Still, it's fun for me so I continue.

[Dimaz]

Ember Lords look scary. BTW, do you intentionally ignore Tarts or am I missing something?

[Zeldor]

Yes, I intentionally ignore tarts. I could easily get to them, but I am bored. I had over 100 of them in Utopia. I want to see EDM in action.

I wanted to hurt your blood eco with horror raiding as much as possible. But it looks like you adapted to it and my results are not so great. Any army with at least some storm demons owns horrors fast. So I can't use horrors to your your armies with fear.

Manifestations - yeah, I even killed some of my own scouts with them :D But I think I managed to kill 2 or 3 dakinis this way.

I am probably losing more resources than you, but I can afford it, with much bigger gem income. I think that it was a strategical mistake for you to attack Sauro, instead of waiting and accumulating power to deal massive blow at once. I would have been at war with Pan then probably.

[Dimaz]

I still think that was the only reasonable action for me. You were already stronger and I had to fight so I can reach your power level. Without gemgens, turtling is a bad option generally.

[Dimaz]

If possible, please add 24h to this turn.

[Dimaz]

Well, nevermind )

[Gregstrom]

Done :D

[Dimaz]

Well, this time I definitely need another 24h.
Those manifestations are not fun, btw.

[Zeldor]

I find them very fun :P Especially when they kill Dakinis :D

[Apsophos]

Just to make you know I turned AI.

[Gregstrom]

Thanks for a good game, Apsophos.

[Dimaz]

And what about delay? Please..