Couple questions about demons and magic paths

[Baneslave]

Okay, my latest mod project (curse you, my easily distracted mind!) has led me to ponder these questions:

1. How bad weakness being demon is? This is assuming that pretty much every unit and commander has mr over 12. Also, all commanders can lead same number of demons as normal units.

2. How strong is combo of blood and death as national magic paths. With recruitables death goes up to 2 and blood up to 3, and summons can bring blood to 5. Blood can be used to summon efficient blood searcher.

[Gregstrom]

The big weaknesses of demons:
1: Banish. MR 12 takes some of the sting off this, but by no means all.
2: Various weapons have x3 damage against undead/demons. Say 'ouch'.
3: Cleansing Water and a couple of other spells specifically damage demons (and maybe undead) without MR checks.

Blood/Death = access to lots of vampires. Having both paths is pretty strong, as you can slip sideways to Astral and Earth easily from Death and you have a shot at the Blood uniques etc. Of course, it helps to know what minor paths you get with them.

[LumenPlacidum]

Wait, what lets you go from death to earth? Spectral mages? Edit: ah yes, 1/16 of them will have enough earth to site search and forge the first booster...

[Redeyes]

Wait, what lets you go from death to earth? Spectral mages? Edit: ah yes, 1/16 of them will have enough earth to site search and forge the first booster...

That and the ubiquitous Cyclops Tartarians if you want to count those as "easy" - they'll certainly be common in the endgame.

The big problems demons face is indeed banishment, especially when facing opponents who have the ability to form priest led communions - banishment under a communion has an exponential growth in strength what with the the penetration boost and a large linear increase in both damage and area.

[Gregstrom]

@Lumenplacidum: The first couple of E1s you get can go and start site searching manually. That way you have the option of empowering if you don't get any E2s in an acceptable timeframe.

[Baneslave]

So, making all national troops demons is good reason to increase their stats. Also, holy and blood spells that increase mr or give other demon specific bonuses seems nice. That is thematic too.

Of course, it helps to know what minor paths you get with them.

At this moment none, but that may change.

BTW, what would happen if unit has both demon and undead attributes?

[Ragnarok-X]

Just look at Yomi if you want to compare demon stats.

[Baneslave]

Ragnarok-X: Good point. I never noticed that Oni have so high MR. And heavy armour my demons carry doesn't help either.

[Baalz]

Yeah, banishment is surprisingly painful against heavy troops even with a decent MR. The reason is because its got a large AOE, does AN damage, and is very, very easy to spam. Plenty of nations have at least H1 on their research mages, and indie priests are really easy to mass...so if each casting affects a few of your guys with AN damage it starts stacking up really fast if you don't have just swarms of guys (skellispam).

[Baneslave]

Heavy armour actually makes the situation worse as:
1. Troops cost more
2. It takes longer to get to close combat

I need to test how well +4 mr demon only holy spell works.

On the other hand, sacred unit with no less than 9 stages (forms) is hilariously overpowered ATM.

[Gregstrom]

Hydras aren't that bad, surely?

:D

[Baneslave]

No, but size 2 infantry with claymores, gilded plates and masks, good stats and these (cumulative) bonuses is over powered:
- Nothing yet
- Fire resistance
- Ice resistance
- Shock resistance
- Poison resistance
- Regeneration
- Fear
- Berserk
- Etherealness (hp 1, though)

And thematically these should be recruitable everywhere.

[thejeff]

I'm not sure what use regeneration is with only 1 hp?

But yeah, those could be a bit much.

[Sombre]

Cleansing Bell in CBM is a lvl 6 item that is forgeable by a lot of nations with relative ease.

It absolutely RINSES demons. High AN dmg that ignores mr and has aoe. It also fires automatically no matter what the holder is doing and causes no fatigue. So against that, being a demon sucks.

[Baneslave]

I'm not sure what use regeneration is with only 1 hp?

But yeah, those could be a bit much.

Only the last form has 1 hp. Others have 17.

Edit. I could also turn them into normal immortals, which would be thematic as well.

Cleansing Bell in CBM is a lvl 6 item that is forgeable by a lot of nations with relative ease.

It absolutely RINSES demons. High AN dmg that ignores mr and has aoe. It also fires automatically no matter what the holder is doing and causes no fatigue. So against that, being a demon sucks.

Ouch.

[Redeyes]

And thematically these should be recruitable everywhere.
Doesn't seem any worse than they hydra, depending on their other stats. It could be pretty cool to GoR though, a thug with 9 lives would be pretty extreme.

[Baneslave]

And thematically these should be recruitable everywhere.
Doesn't seem any worse than they hydra, could be pretty cool to GoR though if they have decent stats.

Stats:
#hp 18
#mor 18
#mr 15
#str 18
#att 13
#def 12
#mapmove 3
#ap 12

Eh, I found them bit too powerful, so I cut nine forms to just two (normal and ethereal, both with full health). Claymore will be changed to Phoenix Axe, but I am not yet sure what that does.

Ninja-edit. Also, demon priests can reanimate and that annoys me! :mad: I guess their priestly status is more powerful than demon status. :(

Almost-real-edit. I found the "I can take four lances to face and then behead you" bit overpowered.

[Baneslave]

Sorry for double post.

My first AI-test crashed because of summoning spell's "fatieguecost". AI summoned blood mages, used those to summon some more and in the end (when I scryed the province) there were 2900 Mountains of Living Sacrifices in the capital.

:doh:

[Illuminated One]

Well, apart from being quite powerful several forms just feels a bit mechanical and unbelievable to me.

I mean "Puny mortal do you think that beheading me serves any purpose? I'll grow two heads instead!" is perfectly ok.
But "Puny mortal do you think that dispersing me into atoms/petrifying me/slaying my soul serves any purpose? I'll just grow a new standard werewolf form instead with all the items I had before!" ... like atoms would talk.

edit: something like the oni have with a ghost form is pretty cool imo though.

[Baneslave]

Illuminated One: I made some changes and now Phoenix Guard (hurrah for imaginative names!) have second ethereal form. And immortality.

Multiple forms is bit problematic as:
1. Soul Slay doesn't kill completely. (Makes sense if second form is mount or smaller formation)
2. But if multiple forms are used to represent formations, how come AOE spells can only kill one of them at time?

So yeah.