YARG2 , 24 players EA RAND game [7/24 players left]

[WraithLord]

Yet Another RAND Game (YARG) II

To first YARG players: hope you had fun and are ready for more.
To newcomers: This is a RAND game. So no diplomacy whatsoever. No posting here your identity, your nation or giving clues as to what your ID is. Nations are assigned randomly.

I'm maintaining the game thread, I'll be creating the game on the server and starting it but all the admin. work during the game will be carried out by the esteemed and selfless rdonj.
I repeat, during the game I'm stepping back and will be just another player. Don't PM me re. admin. stuff. Only PM rdonj!

At this point the game is open for both sign-up and discussion.
Some of the settings are open for discussion, the rest are fixed and will have bold font.

Map: Glory of the gods (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?p=738553&highlight=#post738553) (multilayer version)
Calahan has graciously agreed to apply some fixes based on first YARG lessons.
Hosting Pace: First 15 turns every 24h, turns 15-30 48h, turn 30-45 72h, turn 45-60 96h, turn > 61 120h.
Considerate extension giving policy.
Hosting is planned for busy ppl.
Mods: CBM1.6
Renaming: off
Research: difficult
Graphs: on
HoF: 15
Indies: 9
Disallowed exploits: copying Bogus' orders and overfilling enemy lab to prevent his own forge.
Killing own mages under Ankh or LaD to gain freebe mages and troops. It's ok in a battle but it's not ok to set it up on purpose (whoever likes to do it knows what I'm talking about)
Probing armies with scouts/commanders must be done in such a way so as not to block movement (Added after game start so does not strictly apply to this game - will apply to next YARG)

Era: EA
Nations: all, 24.
Victory condition: 10 VPs. Each capital has 1 VP.
Pretenders should be given nations name!
This is to prevent unintentional disclosure of player ID.
i.e. If you play Agartha you call your pretender Agartha. That's it, no games please.

re. nation assignment. I can ask Zeldor again (if he'll agree and if he ain't interested in participating)
repeat, rdonj will admin.


-> For those who are not familiar with the term RAND.
RAND - Random Anonymous No Diplomacy.
Nations are assigned randomly.
Player's Identity is kept hidden.
Diplomacy or any form of communication is not allowed and is considered cheating.
-> After all players sign-up we shall wait a week for pretender creation. Then we start the game.
-> Please refrain from sending any in-game messages. Also, don't post here anything that can reveal information regarding you or other nations. No diplomacy or communications of any kind is allowed between players.
If you lose your identity is revealed. This is part of the fun in the game, guessing and 2nd guessing who is who until ppl start falling. If you do lose, please also refrain from posting anything with information on the game.
-> Please honor the warrior spirit of this game. No turning AI after a few defeats please. Try to fight as best you can for as long as you can. If RL prevents you from playing please contact the admin to find a sub
-> As Calahan said: "note in the OP regarding what happens if you break the rules of a RAND game. ie. Zero tolerance. Since I remember we had one early incident in YARG1 of someone communicating, so probably a good idea to clarify what happens if anyone attempts that again here." I can't put it any better than that. You send a message, item or whatever to another player and you're out. That's a big red NO NO, please make sure to keep shut any communication channels to other players re. the game.


Players:
1. Dimaz, Leader of Yomi, defeated on turn 38
2. Clahan, Leader of Ctis, defeated on turn 73
3. WraithLord
4. WingedDog
5. Isokron, Leader of Atlantis, defeated on turn 90
6. Slobby
7. Alpine Joe, subbed by ???
8. TwoBits, Leader of Kailasa, defeated on turn 79
9. Squirrelloid, Leader of Agartha, defeated on turn 55
10. Frozen Lama/PriestyMan, Leader of Mictlan, defeated on turn 87
11. Agusti
12. Don Pablo
13. Danbo, Leader of Hinnom, defeated on turn 54
14. LumenPlacidum, with a temporary subbing by ferrosol, Leader of Pangaea, defeated on turn 58
15. Psycho
16. yandav, Leader of Lanka, defeated on turn 46
17. Graeme Dice, Leader of Oceania, defeated on turn 39
18. ghoul31, Leader of helheim, defeated on turn 66
19. Rytek, Leader of Sauromatia, defeated on turn 68
20. Lingchih, Leader of Caelumm, defeated on turn 51
21. GameExtremist, Leader of Vanheim, defeated on turn 50
22. Aethyr, Leader of Abysia, defeated on turn 84
23. Stagger Lee, Leader of Niefelheim, defeated on turn 39
24. Kheldron, Leader of Marverni, defeated on turn 35

Gentleman, once all players know their assignments the clock starts to tick. We'll give one week to play and experiment with builds. After that we're a go. The game will start on Sunday 4th of April. I'll create it on the server once Calahan is happy with his fixes to the map.
The game map, Alexander, was fixed by Calahan. If you wish you can d/l his map from the thread and test it for possible errors as well.

[Penguin Zero]

Sounds interesting. Sign me up!

[Agusti]

Me too, please.:)

[don_Pablo]

Interested!
Sign me up please:)

[WraithLord]

I'm sorry If I wasn't clear about this: the game is mainly meant for veteran players. Please understand that the major difference in competence due to lack of experience unbalances the game.

So if you have solid MP playing experience, I don't know, like played at least 15 MP games, are not in 5 other games ATM and planing to stick it out with us then that's ok. Otherwise please start by playing a few newb MP games to get some experience.

In that light, Penguin Zero, Agusti & don_Pablo, where do you stand?

[Micah]

I don't think you're gonna get 24 experienced players for a game ever, Wraith. We all know that that's way too many people for one game by this point, especially on that gigantoid map. =)

[WraithLord]

Micah, what do you suggest?

[Agusti]

Well, I've played around 10-12 MP games and right now I'm playing and hosting some games, so I think I could say that I'm an intermediate player. It's difficult to be a veteran in this game.

Don Pablo and me are having a good fight in one of them (hi Don Pablo), btw.

If you don't have 24 veteran players, then please sign me up, ok?:)

[WraithLord]

Micah is right. There are two directions from here, either a- go for less players, smaller map. or b- relax the requirement

There are enough small scale vet only games so I'm leaning towards option b. I still think totally green newbs shouldn't join the game but if you consider yourself an intermediate player, have a few MP games under your belt and are willing to play with us and not bail out on the first sign of trouble then that's ok, you can join.


Penguin Zero, what would you say is your experience level?

[don_Pablo]

There was smth strange with my first account so I had to create new.
I've played ~30mp games. One of the first was Qwerty where you kicked me out quickly. I hope I learnt a lot since then )

[WraithLord]

Qwerty?- Wow, were you by chance Machaka?

Anyway, glad to have you both aboard.

[Agusti]

Good. Thank you ;)

[yandav]

I'd be happy to join though I'm not a seasoned veteran.

[LumenPlacidum]

Ah, not a seasoned veteran yet; still sort of flounder around when it comes to the actual process of strategically eviscerating someone. Good luck, all. Was a great pleasure to be casually swept aside in YARG the first :P

[Psycho]

I'll play

[WraithLord]

I'd be happy to join though I'm not a seasoned veteran.

What is your experience level?- You don't have to be a seasoned vet. as I said: "if you consider yourself an intermediate player, have a few MP games under your belt and are willing to play with us and not bail out on the first sign of trouble then that's ok, you can join."

[WraithLord]

Good news. Zeldor has agreed to roll the nations for us so we have that corner covered.

LumenPlacidum, I don't think anyone will dispute that you did a fine job in YARG. Welcome to the 2nd round :)

Psycho glad to have you aboard.

IMO we have a nice mix of players so far.

[Penguin Zero]

I definitely qualify as a noob at this point -- I'll withdraw my application. Best of luck to the rest of you!

[yandav]

I'd be happy to join though I'm not a seasoned veteran.

What is your experience level?- You don't have to be a seasoned vet. as I said: "if you consider yourself an intermediate player, have a few MP games under your belt and are willing to play with us and not bail out on the first sign of trouble then that's ok, you can join."

Well, your description above fits me well: I have a few MP games under my belt and I'm not a quitter.

[Graeme Dice]

I'll join.

[ghoul31]

I'll join

[Rytek]

sign me up please.

[Lingchih]

Yeah, I need a new game. I'll sign up.

[WraithLord]

Welcome :)

Wow the vacant spots are filling real fast. Last four remain.

Calahan: Do you have any update or ETA re. your fixes?- No hurry, just asking...

[Calahan]

Calahan: Do you have any update or ETA re. your fixes?- No hurry, just asking...
@ WraithL - Hope to have the map done by the weekend. With luck towards the start of it, without luck it'll be more towards Sunday evening (GMT).

Also, how set in stone are you regarding the map, and the use of capital VP's? (since notice they are both in bold text in the OP)

Map wise - Glory of the Gods always seems a tricky one to balance due to the large number of wastes and swamps. Plus fitting 21 land nations into 227 provinces will be a bit of a squeeze (especially if I'm trying to avoid nations starting on or near swamps and wastes). So some areas, such as the South East, might see nations start closer together and with less provinces on offer, since they have the water provinces on offer for extra expansion provinces (since all water nations will be in the West sea). If I learn how to, maybe I can look into boosting a few swamp and waste starters by adding the odd gold and/or resource mine. Since I think it will be difficult to avoid all the bad start locations with so many nations.

Had a quick look around for other maps yesterday, and 'Asia Twist' and 'Alexander' both seem so offer a bit more scope with regards balanced terrain, a few more provinces per nation (although that is of course both good and bad), and the added bonus of both maps being wraparounds. Asia Twist also looks like it weighs in at an attractive looking 12-13 provinces per Land + Water nation. With the Alexander province split being 11-12 Land, 14-15 Water. Alexander (no sites) has always seemed a reasonably good map to me from the games I've played on it. Have no experience at all with the Asia Twist map though.


Capital VP wise - Mentioned in the YARG1 thread that for my other previous map editing effort, I tried to avoid having fixed start locations in favour of starting zones. Designed entirely to hide the exact location of each nations capital, so that rushing is a bit more difficult, and also harder to spell spam capitals (since you have to at least find them first!!). But obviously, there's absolutely no point me doing that if the capitals are being marked with VP's.


All the above is entirely your call though WraithL. Just point me in the direction of the map you want, and I'll do what I can to balance it for a full complement of EA nations.

[WraithLord]

Well, Both AT and Alexander are good maps. The thing is they're even bigger than GotG. The end game can be nightmarish. Perhaps this can be offset by lowering VPs required for victory to 9 (like in YARG).

Now if we opt for AT or Alexander then there's no need for you to do balance fixes, right?- If so, then I'm in favor of your idea. No need to spend time on further fixes to GotG.

As for which to choose, both are good and I've only a slight preference to Alexander. Maybe we can vote for the map, so each player name which of the both he prefers.

[Calahan]

@ WraithL - I think Alexander will still need work as I'm not sure how many nations the default map is balanced for, but pretty certain it isn't a full 24 (although more than happy to be wrong on this one :)). But any map will have this problem since don't think I've ever seen a 250-300 province map designed for 24 nations. (someone please shout out now if one does exist somewhere).

Totally with you on more provinces equalling more nightmarish lategame. But all three map are in the same 270-300 ballpark. Personally I'm easy between Alexander and Asia Twist, but I hate fence sitting, so if there's a vote I'll go for Alexander(no sites) just because it's a slightly smaller map, and I know from experience it plays reasonably well in MP. (but then all of Pasha's maps tend to do that. Thanks again Pasha btw for all your great maps).

I'll see how the votes are looking early tomorrow evening (GMT), and then hopefully start work on the map at the same time based on the votes. (subtle hint to WraithL to have the deadline for voting at 19:00GMT tomorrow :))

[WraithLord]

The deadline for map voting stands at 19:00GMT.
Make your choice, AsiaTwist or Alexander.

So far:
Alexander: 2
AsiaTwist: 0

[Curious Yellow]

I'd be interested in joining. Not a quitter, but I am fairly new to MP dominions.

[WraithLord]

Sorry, I must ask- how many Dom-3 MP games did you play?- more than five?

[Curious Yellow]

WraithLord: I've only played three so far, plus one that is ongoing. Have not played one with CBM yet. If that excludes me that's fine, I just thought I'd give it a shot - games on this forum fill up so quickly, I usually miss my chance.

[Psycho]

Vote for Alexander. Asia twist has too many ports, it's hard to keep track what connects where.

[WraithLord]

Curious Yellow, hope to see you in a future game, perhaps YARG3 ;)

reminder, GotG requires far too much work to balance for 24 nations. we're currently voting for the game map:
The deadline for map voting stands at Friday, 19:00GMT.
Make your choice, AsiaTwist or Alexander.

So far:
Alexander: 3
AsiaTwist: 0

[Graeme Dice]

I'll abstain from map voting.

[Alpine Joe]

I'll throw in a vote for Alexander

[Slobby]

Asia Twist

[Lingchih]

I like Alexander. I'll vote for it.

[Frozen Lama]

alexander

[don_Pablo]

Asia Twist.

I'm tired from Alexander.
I played a lot of game on it and the only one on AT.

[LumenPlacidum]

Asia Twist

[WingedDog]

I haven't played a single game on this maps, so I refrain from voting. They both are wraparound and that's what most important for me.

[TwoBits]

Me neither, so I'll pass on voting too. I'm sure I can make do with either :)

[Dimaz]

Alexander.

[WraithLord]

AsiaTwist vs. Alexander votes:
Alexander: 7
AsiaTwist: 3

abstain: 3

[GameExtremist]

Could you add me to the starting lineup please?

First yarg....should be interesting :)

[Squirrelloid]

Oh heck, RAND games don't take much time, and if you're begging in Pasha's thread you clearly need the player. Sign me up.

My vote on map seems to be irrelevant.

[WraithLord]

What?- begging?- Yeah right.

The game's filling up real fast. So there's no need for you to do us this grand favor of joining ;)

[Calahan]

My balancing aims for the map starts will be....

- Land capitals to all have 4-5 adjoining provinces. If I can ensure a fair spread of terrain types then all the better. Where possible, if a capital only has 4 neighbours, I will try to ensure at least two of them are mountains or forests so that the capital has adequate resources.

- Water capitals to have 3 adjoining provinces. Very difficult to ensure more than 3, so seems fairest to me if all three water nations have 3 adjoining provinces.

- All Land capitals to be at least 3 provinces apart. ie. Cap-Indy-Indy-Indy-Cap. If I can get the capitals further apart then I certainly will, but 21 Land nations doesn't leave that much room with only a 12-13 ppn (province per nation) average, so need to be realistic. A wraparound map also constricts space available to work with, as it removes the option of putting nations in the corner.

I can't guarantee any of the above though, since I have no idea yet how my above aims will clash with the reality of the map that is eventually decided upon. But like I said, I will try my best to fulfil the aims mentioned.


Still a few hours left for voting, but so far Alexander looks to have a healthy lead. And with regards the Alexander map, and specifically the water nations ....

As it stands on the base map, the water provinces do not form a complete wraparound. So in effect the water is just a long elongated section, which means one water nation starting at each end, with the third having to be piggy-in-the-middle. Which probably means a short and tough life for said piggy. There is another area of water available, but on the base map it only covers 6 provinces, which just isn't enough.

Solutions and Options.....

There are a number of isolated water provinces on the map that are connected by rivers. These rivers do not allow movement though. So I could connect up these isolated water provinces to the main areas of water, and that would result in the 6 province water section becoming 9 provinces. Which when added to the "totally safe until midgame" factor for starting there, could just about make it borderline acceptable as a start location.

Another option is to do some map editing and along with opening up the rivers for movement, place an additional river on the map (if my artistic skills are up to it that is) to connect up provinces (266) - (5). This would result in all the main water provinces being connected, and provide a lot more scope for placement.

Another idea is to make the existing water provinces wraparound by, for example, connecting (265) with (68), which then means each water nation will be playing piggy to the other two. So nice and fair.

Or there's always "Who cares about all this rubbish, do what you like because water nation suck anyway no matter where they start" :)

I can and will use my own judgement of course, but thought I'd throw a few ideas out for feedback. Since balancing the water nations on Alexander does require some specific thought to ensure all three have a fairly equal fighting chance. (of getting their arse kicked once they step on land ;))

[WraithLord]

Calahan, in your opinion, how bad is it, balance wise, if we go with vanilla Alexander?
Would be great if you find it possible to apply the pareto principal here, do 20% modifications to fix 80% of the perceived issues :)


IMO, the starting locs. don't have to be 100% identical as I find a small measure of variance in start. locs to add flavor to the game.

[WingedDog]

Perhaps decrease VP's number required for victory to 9 to avoid lategame micromanagement hell?

[WraithLord]

Yes. I already posted I'll reduce VP. Perhaps 10 though. We are 24 players after all, 9 is barely more than a third.

[WingedDog]

I think - less the VP's - more dynamic the game. Reducing VP's would force people to fight each other rather then turtling.
Besides - if nobody is really going to stop the leader, what's the difference 9 VP's or 11? Eleven would just make the game longer.
I think 9 is just the right number, but it's just my opinion. I wander what others think.

[Dimaz]

10 is good.

[Calahan]

Calahan, in your opinion, how bad is it, balance wise, if we go with vanilla Alexander?
Would be great if you find it possible to apply the pareto principal here, do 20% modifications to fix 80% of the perceived issues :)

IMO, the starting locs. don't have to be 100% identical as I find a small measure of variance in start. locs to add flavor to the game.
I've just started looking at the Alexander map in the editor, and it appears there are no pre-set start locations as I thought, other than the odd few isolated provinces that are marked as 'no start". For some reason I remember the map being pre-set for something like 15+2, but obviously I must have just imagined that :confused:

If we go for vanilla Alexander(no sites), then it will literally mean totally random starting locations (unless my understanding is wrong regarding map editing and the "no_start" tag), as about 80%+ of the provinces seem to be marked as starting locations. Some people are fine with random starts, other people obviously have issues with it.

So if balancing the start locations needs to be done anyway (which it will unless you go for random starts), then I don't foresee it being that much extra work to sort out the issue regarding water nations that I talked about.

I hope to have an hour or two free this evening, so I should be able to make a start on it. As the sooner I can get a Beta version out, the sooner people can start testing it for unwanted errors etc.

[Aethyr]

Either is fine

[Zeldor]

You'd probably have to do it by hand for 24 players. I had to do same thing for Utopia, but it was 18 players iirc.

10/24 VPs sounds like small thing, but people are probably right that even that is too much, especially for RAND game. LR is what? 9/18? And there are some voices that it will never end, or at least drag over turn 100. I'm not in it, but I suggest you go with 9 VPs. People should be smart enough to stop nations with big teleport + crumble capabilities :) And it's about winning and stopping others from winning, so faster game is better.

BTW, let me know when I can roll nations, some people are pesterin me on IRC already, dunno if I can roll them nations earlier.

[Psycho]

Alexander is preset for 16+3 nations (I pity the poor water sucker in the middle). You can see it in the map file at the start - #start locations. Maybe just drop one player and start with them? ;)

My preference is higher VP condition if it makes any difference. No clams should reduce MM enough.

[WraithLord]

Calahan and all who care to opine, would it be that terrible if we go for random start locations?- If it's perceived to be problematic then we'll go with your, non-existent-yet-and-pending-your-work, fixed map

Re. VPs. 10 sounds like a good compromise between late game MM and the fact that we have 24 players on board. Why don't we stick with that?

Zeldor, Let's wait for last 2 slots to fill. I don't think this will take more than a day or two at most. If we don't get them full by that time we'll just drop out the 2 worst EA nations and get started with 22. Once the list is full I'll send you the names for you to roll.

All: Please take the time to start sending your emails to me. I'll need them for setting up the server. I'll probably also send them to rdonj - our game admin.

[Calahan]

Ok, I've just spent the last hour or so playing around with the Alexander map (map voting is now closed btw). I should be able to deliver on all the aims I stated before, as the map is a bit more generous than I first thought with regards available space. I also don't mind spending time to get the map right before the game starts. If the game is going to last several months, a few hours extra at the start means very little time wise, but could mean a great deal enjoyment wise.

Only question that remains about the map is the water nations. At the moment I've joined up the main bodies of water using the rivers by connecting 192-227, 227-266 and 265 - 7.

I've also added two rivers (or will add once I get my easel out) to connect 265 - 251 and 266 - 5. This has the effect of turning the water into a wraparound. I am then looking to start the water nations at 29, 265, and 121. This gives each water nation 3 adjoining provinces, and each water capital is 6 provinces away from both of the other two water nations capitals. So nobody has to be in the middle.

This is the only way I can see to balance 3 water nations. The other alternatives are to either accept one water nation getting a doomed start, or as Psycho says, drop one water nation, and let the two remaining fight it out on the usual water provinces (ie. Without the river connections I've added).

I might be able to release a Beta map within the next hour or two. Failing that I hope to get it out by tomorrow afternoon (GMT)

And if anyone has any views with regards the map, balancing, what to do with the water nations etc. then please shout your thoughts out sooner rather than later :)


Alexander is preset for 16+3 nations .
Thanks for this. Knew I'd seen it somewhere and wasn't just going crazy.

[Lingchih]

Those sound like good modifications, Calahan. Thanks for all the work. I would prefer nice, fixed starting locations for a game of this size.

[TwoBits]

I think making it wraparound for the water nations is best and simplest solution. It might not look so tidy on the map, but as long as it plays OK, who cares?

And I would rather have more than fewer VPs necessary. As Psycho said, there'll be no gem generators. And if one nation is truly on a roll, one or two extra caps will not be hard to attain (note how Midgard rolled up Man and Utgard's capitals in quick succession). But in a no-diplomacy game, I think it takes players extra time to disengage from whatever local action they are involved in, in order to deal with the leader (at the end of YARG 1, I was fighting Midgard alone until the very last turn). That's my opinion, at least.

BTW, I'm going out of town Mon-Wed. What's the time frame on starting this game likely to be? I'd hate to delay things right at the start, but I might need an extra day or two to design a pretender. But I promise, after this trip, I'll have no more fun of any kind until summer at least :)

[Stagger Lee]

I waited for your map selection deadline to pass, to give available vets a chance to sign up first. I am interested, and would like to be considered for one of the open spots. I am new, but not completely inexperienced, and if I have earned a reputation yet, it will have been for playing out my games no matter how badly I screwed up the start. This would be my 8th MP game on this forum, I think.

I will not be offended if you think I'm too green for what you're trying to put together here. ;)

[WingedDog]

Calahan
Thank you very much for your efforts. :up:

WraithLord
If we fail to fill last slots, I would prefer to remove Niefel and Hinnom from the game rather then so called 'weakest' nations.

[WraithLord]

ok. This is the current list. Player, has email?:
1. Dimaz, yes
2. Clahan, yes
3. WraithLord, yes
4. WingedDog, no
5. Isokron, no
6. Slobby, no
7. Alpine Joe, no
8. TwoBits, no
10. Frozen Lama, no
11. Agusti, no
12. Don Pablo, no
13. Danbo, no
14. LumenPlacidum, no
15. Psycho, no
16. yandav, no
17. Graeme Dice, no
18. ghoul31, no
19. Rytek, no
20. Lingchih, yes
21. GameExtremist, no
22. Aethyr, yes
23. Stagger Lee, no
24. chrispedersen? , no

chrispedersen has expressed interest to join but has some RL limitations that may prevent that. I'm waiting to hear back from him today.

Zeldor, Please roll nations :)
Results should go to the games admin - rdonj

All players listed as email sent?- no, please start sending your emails.
Please also note that once we confirm that last spot I want to give everyone a week to play with nation builds. Then we start the game.

[Maerlande]

I prefer 11.

Nigel Tufnel: The numbers all go to eleven. Look, right across the board, eleven, eleven, eleven and...
Marty DiBergi: Oh, I see. And most amps go up to ten?
Nigel Tufnel: Exactly.
Marty DiBergi: Does that mean it's louder? Is it any louder?
Nigel Tufnel: Well, it's one louder, isn't it? It's not ten. You see, most blokes, you know, will be playing at ten. You're on ten here, all the way up, all the way up, all the way up, you're on ten on your guitar. Where can you go from there? Where?
Marty DiBergi: I don't know.
Nigel Tufnel: Nowhere. Exactly. What we do is, if we need that extra push over the cliff, you know what we do?
Marty DiBergi: Put it up to eleven.
Nigel Tufnel: Eleven. Exactly. One louder.
Marty DiBergi: Why don't you just make ten louder and make ten be the top number and make that a little louder?
Nigel Tufnel: [pause] These go to eleven.

[WraithLord]

Very well. Let's do a vote on VPs. Options are 9,10 or 11. Deadline tomorrow evening 21:00 GMT.

So far:
9: 1
10: 2
11: 2

[Maerlande]

Don't count my comment Wraithlord. I was just making a joke :)

[WraithLord]

One more thing. Your emails are not needed for creating the game. They can be used by rdonj to prevent spoofing. I recall this happening in the past so better be safe then lose a spot to someone who interjects a .2h file and overrides yours.

EDIT: I'm not sure about the mechanics of ULing pretenders to server but I do recall some issues in this area with players not even from this forum sending pretenders. Maybe I'm just being paranoiac :)

Vote on VPs. Options are 9,10 or 11. Deadline tomorrow evening 21:00 GMT.

So far:
9: 1
10: 2
11: 1

[rdonj]

Hey guys, it's me. Just letting you know, even if I'm not talking I'm watching this thread pretty close. And yes, sending me all your emails will be very helpful for speeding things up down the line if subs become necessary. But it won't really do much to help with people who sneak their nations in before you. Just be careful and if you think that your pretender may not have gotten through and your slot appears taken, notify me and I will delete the nation's pretender so you can try again.

Not being too paranoid WL, I've seen that happen in a number of games now. Might be happening less now though.

[Zeldor]

Ok, nations are rolled and sent to rdonj.

[WraithLord]

rdonj, I've some of the player's emails already. I'll send you what I have.

[rdonj]

Okay, so currently there are 23 players signed up and rolled for. If the game gets another player I know which nation they are getting. I will start letting people know their nations a few hours from now.

[Squirrelloid]

Seriously WL, if you want to take me up on my offer to play it was genuine.

[Psycho]

Vote for 11 VPs.

[Calahan]

Ok, version 0.7 of the map is attached. The change-log and start locations are as follows.

Start Locations

Twenty one Land....

#1 --- 30
#2 --- 22 *** Too good?
#3 --- 65 *** Six adjoining, but two are wastes, and in fairly exposed spot.
#4 --- 66
#5 --- 67
#6 --- 76 *** Too good?
#7 --- 89 *** Connected 89 - 85 to ensure four adjoining.
#8 --- 140
#9 --- 152
#10 -- 153 *** Too safe?
#11 -- 157 *** Removed connection 157 - 161 to stop overlap with water capital at 139.
#12 -- 164 *** Only three adjoining. Will balance either by finding another adjoining, or give adjoining gold/resources mines, large province tags, add farmland etc.
#13 -- 167 *** Swamp start, can easily remove the swamp though.
#14 -- 202
#15 -- 206
#16 -- 207 *** Removed all the 'many sites' tags that were near here.
#17 -- 232 *** Connected 232-222 to ensure four adjoining.
#18 -- 247 *** Removed connection 247 - 245 to ensure three provinces between capital at 272
#19 -- 267
#20 -- 272
#21 -- 287

Three Water....

#1 --- 139 *** Removed connection with 168 to ensure only three adjoining, and to maintain distance from other water capitals.
#2 --- 265 *** Connected 265 - 7 and 265 - 251 (I advise enabling the neighbour connections UI option.)
#3 --- 33

All Land capitals should be between 3-4 provinces away (ie.Cap-Indy-Indy-Indy-Cap) from their nearest neighbour.
All Water capitals should be 6 provinces away from both other Water capitals. With approach access available from both sides, so all three can have 2-on-1 wars.

As you can see, I've made comments regarding several of the starting locations. These are not based on any testing, but more a gut feeling of unease I have about some starts being a bit better than others. This is just part of the game though, as no way for this to ever be solved unless you play on totally symmetrical / mirror imaged maps. I've made note of them though in case some are just too outside the norm. Will await feedback on these before I attempt to do anything about them.

Also commented on where I've had to change the default province connections and why. Here is the full change list regarding province connections, and the reasoning behind them.

New Water Connections

192 - 227 *** So that Water is wraparound.
227 - 266 *** So that Water is wraparound
265 - 251 *** So that Water is wraparound. Need to add a new river to the map for clarity.
5 - 266 *** So that Water is wraparound. Need to add a new river to the map for clarity.

265 - 7 *** So that the Water capital at 265 has three adjoining

176 - 171 *** To remove isolated water province, be consistent with river connections, and enable more tactical options. Easy enough to remove this connection though if people think it's unneeded or just simply a bad idea.
183 - 68 *** To remove isolated water province, be consistent with river connections, and enable more tactical options. Easy enough to remove this connection though if people think it's unneeded or just simply a bad idea.


Removed Water Connections

168 - 139 *** To ensure fairness with only three adjoining for Water capital at 139, and to maintain equal distance between all Water capitals.


Removed Water - Land Connections

161 - 157 *** To ensure that the Land capital at 157 does not share an adjoining capital province with the Water capital at 139.


New Land Connections

85 - 89 *** To ensure capital at 89 has four adjoining.
232 - 222 *** To ensure capital at 232 has four adjoining.


Removed Land Connections

245 - 247 *** To maintain minimum three province gap between capital at 272.


Almost all the changes to connections are for balance purposes. I've also tried to give the Water nations a fighting chance to get on land by giving their capitals Land adjoining provinces that are not part of a Land nations adjoining capital province. If that makes sense?!? I'm also hoping this will help slightly with the Dominion spread problem that Water nations often have when the water is elongated. (like it is on this map)


Install Instructions --- Unzip the attached file, called "Alexander_no_sites_for_YARG2.map", and put it into your "dominions3\maps" folder. Then when starting a new game, you should see the map selectable as "Alexander_No_Sites_for_YARG2".

The Alexander map itself can be found here....
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=37295
If you are visitng this thread, please thank Pashadawg for creating the map.


I think that's about it. Made a reasonable stab at balancing the starts. One or two I'm a little unhappy with, but 24 is a lot of nations as I've already noted. Also a little worried about the number of start locations that are in forests. Mainly because there are not that many forests on this map anyway, and a lot of nations like building forts on forests. So may add a few forests here or there. Most likely where there are forests already.


I hope I've listed all the changes I've made. Apologies if I've missed any though. (and let me know if I have)

Also, please please please provide feedback if you encounter any problems with the map, or indeed if I've made changes that you just don't like or agree with. For example connecting the isolated water provinces which weren't needed to make the water wraparound. I am more than happy to receive any sort of negative feedback, indeed it would be most welcome if it helps improve the map. One thing that won't help at all though is if you spot a problem, but then don't report it for some reason. If you see something, then post it or PM it to me, and I'll try and fix it. Once the game is up and running though, it will be a lot more hassle to fix things (if indeed they can be fixed at all by that stage).

Finally, and most importantly of all. If you are testing this map, and you see a starting location that isn't listed above under the list of "Twenty one Land" "Three Water", then contact me asap, since nations not starting where they should will really mess up the game. I've started about a dozen all EA nations games to test the starts, and so far they've always started exactly where they should. But like I said, if you experience differently, it's very important that you mention it before the game starts.

I hope to get the visual editing of the map done by the end of the weekend. It should play fine as it is, but want to have the map borders visually matching the changes I've made before we get underway. (you will all then have to download a ~35mb file to see the visual changes)

That's all for now folks :)

[Calahan]

Rounding up a few things....
Calahan
Thank you very much for your efforts. :up:.
Those sound like good modifications, Calahan. Thanks for all the work. I would prefer nice, fixed starting locations for a game of this size.
No problems guys, I'm only too happy to help where I can :) Just hope I've done a good enough job of it.

Ok, nations are rolled and sent to rdonj.
Best thing about Early Era for me is that Zeldor can't give me bloody Man again like he did when rolling nations for YARG1 and Forge of Godhood :D

(***Smile immediately wiped as I don't even need rdonj to contact me to already know Zeldor has given me someone like Agartha :()


@ WraithL - I vote for 10 VP's.

@ rdonj - Many thanks once again for offering to admin the game. Wouldn't be possible without your kind help and assistance. And I look forward to bombarding you endlessly with PM's whenever I spot a staler :)

@ Zeldor - Thanks for rolling the nations once again.


From the YARG1 thread
......P.S. Glad to see you back, Cal. :)
Glad to be back WingedDog :) and certainly happy to see you still around my friend. Along with all the other usual forum suspects. Now if my real life could just stop interfering with my real life, everything would be absolutely fantastic!


Edit: Damn, I passed the 1,000 posts mark without even noticing. I had a big party planned for it and everything :( Wonder if I get a telegram off shrapnel or something for achieving this milestone?

[Zeldor]

Huh, I didn't save the copy of rolled nations, so only rdonj now knows who is who, unless he sends me a copy of the PM I sent him :P I remember some of nations rolled, but not yours, Calahan :)

[WraithLord]

Seriously WL, if you want to take me up on my offer to play it was genuine.

Oh man, given your post's tone I was under the impression you were just being cynical. Good thing that you cleared that one, albeit somewhat at the last moment. To tell the truth now there's kinda of a conflict situation re. the last spot :(

How about if I do the following:
Today I'll wait for chrispedersen to confirm whether or not he'll join. He said he wants to yet has RL limitations that may prohibit that. In case he's not interested/can't join/doesn't respond today then you'll get the last spot. In case he does want to join then I think the fairest resolution to the conflict is to flip the coin. I'll ask Zeldor to kindly roll (so that he'll be the bad guy ;) )

sounds ok?

In any case were now fully booked. I'll update first post to reflect that.

[WraithLord]

Squirrelloid, forget all that that. You're in for sure :)
You see I made a silly mistake and left out the 9th spot, so it was actually vacant the whole time.

The last player may either be chrispedersen or, he he can't join, the next player who expresses interest to join.

[rdonj]

@ rdonj - Many thanks once again for offering to admin the game. Wouldn't be possible without your kind help and assistance. And I look forward to bombarding you endlessly with PM's whenever I spot a staler :)

Edit: Damn, I passed the 1,000 posts mark without even noticing. I had a big party planned for it and everything :( Wonder if I get a telegram off shrapnel or something for achieving this milestone?

You're welcome :) I... uh, am looking forward to it! Yes. By the way some people were missing you on IRC :P

Nah, unfortunately you do not. Unless perhaps you are johan's cousin or something. I missed my 2,000th post too, I was kind of looking forward to that. Now I'm a few hundred beyond that. Whoops.


Also, the first round of nation picks is out, going to people who sent me their emails first. I'll finish this up over as soon as the pm limit lets me.

[Kheldron]

Well if Chrispedersen can't join this game I'd be glad to enlist.

[rdonj]

All players should have their nations now. If you got any particularly weird messages from me, I apologize, I had to do something to keep myself entertained while I waited out the pm sending limit :P

[WraithLord]

Kheldron, welcome aboard :)

Alas, chrispedersen will not be able to join this game :(


All, I got one PM from a player who thought he was out although he was actually listed as a player in the game. So please, always refer to the first post. I keep it updated.

[rdonj]

Okay, pming kheldron his nation now.

[militarist]

If someone else will want to leave, I'm in a waiting list :) I'm trying to avoid new games, but rules sounds nice

[Lingchih]

10 VPs please.

[WingedDog]

Calahan
I browsed the map a little, and noticed: 272 connects 16, 252 connects 205 they are not supposed to be connected in original map. You never mentioned you made this changes, and I see no logical explanation why they are there, so I decided it's a mistake.
If I spot anything else I'll let you know.

[WraithLord]

Vote on VPs. Options are 9,10 or 11. Deadline tomorrow evening 21:00 GMT.

So far:
9: 1
10: 3
11: 1

Psycho, I think so far you're the only one who voted 11.

[TwoBits]

I thought I was down for 11, although I see from my previous post that I merely stated I would rather have more VP than fewer, rather than any specific amount. So you can now officially put me down for 11 :D

[Squirrelloid]

Voting for 9.

[Calahan]

Calahan
I browsed the map a little, and noticed: 272 connects 16, 252 connects 205 they are not supposed to be connected in original map. You never mentioned you made this changes, and I see no logical explanation why they are there, so I decided it's a mistake.
If I spot anything else I'll let you know.
Good eyes WingedDog :eek: and many thanks for spotting this error. And since those two connections are indeed a mistake. And since they are not vanilla connections, they must be a mistake I added?!? Wonder if I can get away with blaming Ballbarian's Map Forge program ;)

Attached is version 0.8 of the map corrected for the above errors. Now named "Alexander_No_Sites_for_YARG2_v08"

I'm out most of the day today, but hope to find an hour or two near the end to sort out the map visuals. Keep you all posted. And please everyone, follow WingedDog's lead and report any errors you find :)


@ WraithL - Might be worth you giving a rough ETA on when the game is starting (and hence Pretender deadline). Two Bits has said he's away from Monday-Wednesday, so be a bit tough on him design wise if we start too soon. Plus I still need to sort a few of the map issues out before I'm happy with it (and sort my own Pretender design out). Maybe an idea to look to start sometime next weekend. A start next Saturday or Sunday would give a week for design, and that's usually a good amount of time for designing (as some are probably only just finding out today what nation they have).

Also, maybe a note in the OP regarding what happens if you break the rules of a RAND game. ie. Zero tolerance. Since I remember we had one early incident in YARG1 of someone communicating, so probably a good idea to clarify what happens if anyone attempts that again here.

[WraithLord]

Vote on VPs. Options are 9,10 or 11. Deadline this evening 21:00 GMT.

So far:
9: 2
10: 3
11: 2

Calahan: Good suggestions. Let's aim to start Sunday 4/4. I'll also update OP.

[Kheldron]

10 VPs for me

[Stagger Lee]

10 sounds right to me.

[Agusti]

10 too

[Aethyr]

11 VPs

[WraithLord]

Vote on VPs. Options are 9,10 or 11. Results:
9: 2
10: 6
11: 3

10 VPs it is.

[Calahan]

Quick map update - My available free time hasn't exactly gone to plan over the last two days, but hope to get the map finished before the weekend so that the game can be created for Pretender uploads well before the scheduled start on Sunday 4th April. (Since I think it's only the map that is being waited on for game creation now that the number of VP's has been decided upon)

[WraithLord]

Thank you Calahan. Indeed, once the map is ready I'll setup the game on the server.

[Calahan]

@ All

Attached is version 0.9 of the map. I have now done all the essential visual changes like adding rivers and re-arranging the province borders to match the changes to the connections I've made. I may yet make some more visual alterations to the map for the final version. This will happen if I get time to play test the map a lot more than I have done, and maybe balance the starts a bit more for income, resources etc. by adding grasslands or forests. Plus I may add a forest or two as I mentioned before to make up for all the forests being lost with forest starts.


The additions to the change-log are.......

New Land Connections

164 - 187 --- To ensure four adjoining for capital at 164.

Removed Land Connections

75 - 97 --- Removed connection to match the new visuals in that area.
182 - 170 -- Removed connection to match the new visuals in that area.


As usual, please let me know asap if you spot any errors. Be they visual or map this time

There are two files attached. The small download is the .map file that you need for the connection changes, and the large file is the .tga file which you need to see the visual changes to the map. If you are not that interested in play testing the map, then you can wait to download the .tga file until nearer the start time (save having to download a large file twice). I'll also get WraithLord to attach everything to the OP once I finish the final version.

TTFN


@ WraithLord - Give me another 48 hours to finish up the map completely. But if I don't get it done by say 18:00 Friday GMT, then go ahead and create the game using the map I've attached to this post if you like. I've mostly finished it, but as I said above, maybe one or two of the starts can be tweaked a bit for income/resource balance. Doubt it'll make a huge difference, but will look at it if I get time over the next two days.

Also, I'm not sure exactly what parts of the map need to be uploaded to the llamaserver. I'd guess the .map file for definite, but not sure about the .tga file though. Although I'm sure someone with far more map knowledge than me will be able to provide the answers to this

[rdonj]

Okay, it is poll time. One of the players, considering using a phoenix as a pretender, found out that they still have the bug where they can die permanently from being trampled to death. They were wondering if an altered version of CBM could be used in which the phoenix was size 6, to avoid the possibility of getting killed off stupidly that way. Wraithlord is a bit against the idea, but is willing to open it up for discussion. So please vote, for size 6 phoenixes, or against?

Also, I'm not sure exactly what parts of the map need to be uploaded to the llamaserver. I'd guess the .map file for definite, but not sure about the .tga file though. Although I'm sure someone with far more map knowledge than me will be able to provide the answers to this

Both will be need to be uploaded to the server, since you have created a new image file. When you try to upload one, it will ask for the other. At least if the name is different from the version currently on the llamaserver.

[Graeme Dice]

I say yes. I'm not worried about Phoenixes with boots of the behemoth.

[WraithLord]

If the name is not different then I'll change it manually (and in the .map) before ULing it.

As for poll, I'm against this b/c I can't foresee how it will effect balance. It seems trivial but go figure, it's not like the change was tested or was part of CBM so that ppl would have time to consider the ripple effect it may have. We are that close to starting the game and I personally would like to keep changes to a minimum. I am all for Calahan's fixes to the map but would like to keep the changes at that and nothing more.
In short. I vote no.

[Calahan]

I'd generally be pretty easy either way on the Phoenix vote thing. Although I do think it would be a bit harsh if someone lost their Phoenix Pretender permanently (ie. Immortal tag being ignored) due to a game bug, as that is something out of a players control. So seems unfair to punsh them because of that.

But I never fence sit, so I will vote yes for allowing a size 6 Phoenix (based on it fixing a game bug that in a perfect world wouldn't exist). I can't see what imbalance is caused by the Phoenix being size 6, apart from making them trample proof. And........

..... I'm not worried about Phoenixes with boots of the behemoth.
The Phoenix doesn't have any feet :shock: So they won't be wearing any fancy footwear from this years summer collection :(

[Dimaz]

I think immortals can still be killed by other funny things like Votd, so adding one more makes little difference, and I'm with WL here on less changes - less trouble point. So, no to modded Phoenix.

[Stagger Lee]

I'm confused. Are we talking about the phoenix' immortality being ignored, or the prospect of a dead god who can't be called back?

[rdonj]

Ignored immortality.

[Frozen Lama]

I'd vote against. everyone knows the bugs with immortality. they die on retreat, VotD, and i guess trample too.

[Lingchih]

I vote no to the Phoenix size 6.

[LumenPlacidum]

No to size 6 phoenix, even if it would be fun to hit it with a hero's blade that way.

[Aethyr]

I vote no.

[WingedDog]

Size 6 Phoenix automatically gains immunity to Wind Ride, which is a perfect way to get rid of immortal being.
I ran several test with trampling Phoenix and can say - not a single bird was hurt in the process, they all were carefully (not without a couple of affictions though) placed into capital after death. But I had few incidents with multyplying Phoenixes as a result of trample instead, and I thought recent patch was fixing this.
My vote is no to size 6 Phoenix.

[WraithLord]

Also, wouldn't size 6 Pheonix gain sort of immunity to trampling?
It seems like this bug needs to be fixed by IW. Give it size 6 is kinda like fixing a wrong with another wrong.

vote, for size 6 phoenixes, or against?
Yes: 2
No: 7

I think the current votes are sufficient to give rdonj the player's answer - no.

[Calahan]

Also, wouldn't size 6 Phoenix gain sort of immunity to trampling?
I think that's the whole point of making the Phoenix size 6 isn't it? Since it is the trampling that is causing the bug to trigger.

It's certainly a bug for illWinter to look at, but if bugs can be worked around via a mod, it's sometimes worth doing IMO (until IW get around to it). Of course it all depends on what the bug is, how much it affects games etc.


WingedDog does make a very good point though (as is his usual habit) about size 6 making an immortal commander immune to Wind Ride. I certainly failed to consider this before when I said that I couldn't see what imbalance it causes.

Guess it's just another occasional bug that creeps in now and again with Phoenix Pyre and/or immortal units. But at least those who are thinking of taking the Phoenix for this game should now be aware of the problem (and so have less course for complaining about it if this bug hits them during the game).

[Dimaz]

It's sort of hard to complain about something after the game starts, given RAND post rules.

[WraithLord]

Calahan, the suggestion is to "fix" a bug in which the phoenix may die to trampling by giving it trample immunity. Trample immunity is not that trivial. It is valuable to have an immortal trample immune pretender when you get rushed by elephants. Such a trait should come with increased cost.

This is out of scope of this game. I (or rather - vote) say, let IW and/or CBM handle this.

[rdonj]

Anyway, yes, it does seem like there is insufficient support for the idea to put it through. So there will be no size 6 phoenixes this game. Carry on, then.

[Zeldor]

There are many bugs with phoenix [that trampling thing, mirror image/glamour giving immunity to pyre explosion, sudden explosions without reason etc]. So it's generally not a good idea to pick phoenix if you want to win the game. It's great on defense of course, but not for winning wars and games. It goes rather well with C'tis though.

[Calahan]

Attached is the final version of the map. I sadly didn't find the time in the end to do the visual alterations I would have liked to do if I had unlimited time (adding a new forest for every forest start mainly).

I did manage to balance a few of the starts out a bit though by adding and/or removing a few 'large' or 'small' province tags. In particular there were 3-4 starts that were adjacent to a large farmland province, which usually meant on average a +20k population province next to home. Thought that was a bit much, so I removed all the large province tags for these farmlands, which seems to have reduced them to a more acceptable average population of around 13k. (all the farmlands not adjacent to a capital are as they were)

Also added a few 'large province' tags to the start locations that seemed to be struggling for gold a bit. Mainly some of the mountain starts with mostly mountains as adjoining provinces.

Finally, I added the 'fresh water' tag to the provinces that border the two new rivers I put in. This is so the map is consistent with all the other provinces that are tagged as 'fresh water' (ie. All the provinces that border a river).


Think that is all from me on the map front folks. There is no way the starts are completely balanced, as some are certainly better than others. But like I said previously on this, that's generally just part of the game. Hope I've gone some way to having the starts in vaguely the same street as each other though. Even if some of the starts are at the posh end of the street :) and some are in the slums :(

Attached are two files. The smaller download is the final version of the .map file, which you will all need to download. The larger download is the .map and .tga file combined (which I hope WraithL will also attach or link to the OP for convenience).

***NOTE - If you downloaded the previous .tga file I posted two days ago, you only need to download the .map file attached to this post, as the .tga file is exactly the same as the previous one.***


@ WraithL - I've uploaded the map to the llamaserver (I think. I hope), so you can create the game now for Pretender uploads. The map should now be selectable from the "User-added maps" section, which starts about half way down the list of maps when the llamaserver asks you to select a map. This map is listed as "Alexander No Sites - For the YARG 2 game". (Edit: Having just checked, the map is currently at the very bottom of the list).

Also, can you attach the complete map file (ie. larger file) I've attached to this post to your original post for easy access and retrieval. As it'll save players having to trawl through the thread to find the map later on if they have to do reinstalls etc. Or just provide a direct link from the OP to this post (since uploading large files can take bloody ages :()

[Psycho]

I cannot extract the tga file neither with windows integrated zip archiver, nor with winrar. They give me an "unknown compression method" message. What did you use to zip it?

[Calahan]

Apologies to those who can't extract the large .zip file I've attached above. I forgot to mention that I used the "7-zip" program to compress the files, as it was the only compression program I could find that would pack the .tga file down from 37Mb to below the 23Mb forum limit for .zip attachments. And I'm not sure how compatable the high compression options on "7-Zip" are with other compression programs (but I'm guessing perhaps not very compatable)

You can get the "7-Zip" program here --- http://www.7-zip.org/

Please post if anyone still has problems unpacking the files, and I'll find another solution. (or a more widely recognised compression program/option)

[WraithLord]

Calahan, many thanks for the impressive work with the map.

Do you know how I could add a link to your post in the OP. I seem to vaguely recall something to do with adding the post # to the URL but don't recall the details.

I'm heading off to start the game on the server. I'll update once it's alive and then pass the car keys to rdonj and try to enjoy the ride with the rest of you :)

[Calahan]

Do you know how I could add a link to your post in the OP.
@ WraithL - This should be the link to my post with the map. Just copy it all into the OP, and remove the spaces between the u r l at the start and end of it (so it becomes url).

[u r l]http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?p=738553&highlight=#post738553[/u r l]

Maybe make a mention about needing the 7-Zip program to unpack it as well.

[WraithLord]

Game (http://www.llamaserver.net/gameinfo.cgi?game=YARG2)created. Start sending your pretenders. Those who aren't familiar with the procedure please read the guide (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showpost.php?p=529316&postcount=2).

Hurry now, so we can get the game started soon :)

[Calahan]

@ WraithL - Have you turned renaming off? Just checked the game settings page on the llamaserver, and can't see any reference to renaming apart from where it says "All other settings on default", and when starting a new game on the llamaserver, renaming appears to be on by default.

[WraithLord]

You're very observant. I did turn off renaming. I also double checked in the game settings and it says it's turned off.
It would seem like a glitch in the game settings page that neglects to mention renaming settings changes.

[WingedDog]

WraithLord
Thank you for creating a game. I have a suggestion. Unsigned players join created llamaserver games from time to time, not of ill-will, but because they are newbies and unaware they need to sign the game before joining it. Placing a message like: "Please don't join this game unless you signed for it on shrapnel forum. If you want to play - visit http://forum.shrapnelgames.com , games are created regularly. Good luck. :)" on the game page could add an extra level of protection.

to @ll
Please make sure you created your pretender under CBM 1.6 and double check pretender file you are going to send. I haven't played a single game which wasn't restarted because someone messed up with his pretender, and I would really like to have an exception. :)

[WraithLord]

How do I add this message?

[Calahan]

You're very observant.
:) A few games from last year taught me the lesson of triple checking the settings and map of every game I play to avoid hassle and surprises down the road.

Wonder if llama knows that specific info about the renaming settings doesn't appear during the "waiting for Pretenders stage"?

How do I add this message?
- Game settings and admin options.
--- Change message on game page.

[WraithLord]

Maybe I can send an email to llamabeast re. this. Perhaps later when I have some spare time.

Oh and thanks for the instructions and tip. I posted your message WingedDog.

[WraithLord]

10/24 pretenders sent. Common guys, let's get the game started :)

[Lingchih]

It's a big game. 24 players. It will take a while for everyone to get their pretenders in. But, indeed, I would hope for an early week start of the game.

[WraithLord]

18/24.
last six players, please send your pretenders.
Take your time, there's just 18 players waiting for you ;)

reminder (thanks WingedDog):
Please make sure you created your pretender under CBM 1.6 and double check pretender file you are going to send.
Also make sure you got a confirmation email from the server that it got your pretender.

[rdonj]

Later today I'll send out reminder PMs to anyone who has not already sent in their pretender.

[TwoBits]

Where do we find the correct/final version of the map?

[WingedDog]

TwoBits
In this post, I believe :
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showpost.php?p=738553&postcount=119

[ghoul31]

I can't get the alexanderyarg2.tga file to extract from the zip file

[WingedDog]

ghoul31
Here's the explanation:
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showpost.php?p=738624&postcount=121

[WraithLord]

21/24.

1, 2, 3 and the game can start :D

[WraithLord]

two last players are missing pretenders.
Send them today and let the party begin.

[WraithLord]

One player is holding up the game.
:tough: Yeah, you :pointright:, that's right, I'm talking to you - send your pretender plz ;)

[rdonj]

I have sent this player a message. One player has commented to me though that really none of you guys should be talking publicly about the holdout, and he's right unless you have a particularly funny sense of humor :)

[WraithLord]

Hey, you're right. My bad. Thanks for pointing this out.

[LumenPlacidum]

Hahaha, I've so done that before... just made misleading statements in a rand game to make people crazy.

[Rytek]

Im having problems unzipping the map. Not sure how to make the program provided by Calahan's link to make it unzip it.

[WingedDog]

Rytek
Right click on archive -> 7-Zip -> Unpack

[rdonj]

Okay, so the person whose pretender is missing hasn't logged onto the forums in a few days, and is therefore very unlikely to have seen my PM. If you are reading this, and you haven't logged in and checked your messages lately, please do so or it is very likely you will be kicked from the game tomorrow.

This leaves us with a few likely options, since at this point I doubt we're going to hear back from the missing player. Either calahan redoes the map, you play with one missing player, or I look for someone willing to play TNN in the game. I expect the third option is the most preferable so unless told otherwise I will make a thread looking for another player tomorrow morning.

[LumenPlacidum]

So you're saying that we all need to gang up on TNN?

[Lingchih]

Let's just go. He's had enough time. A game of this size always has a holdout. 23 is enough. One hold out is no big deal. Just set TNN to AI from the beginning, or go with 23 players.

[WingedDog]

Quote from OP:

-> Please honor the warrior spirit of this game. No turning AI after a few defeats please. Try to fight as best you can for as long as you can. If RL prevents you from playing please contact the admin to find a sub


Having no AI at all is the whole point of this game. In original YARG only 2 players out of 19 ever switched to AI (and their actions weren't approved by other players). Having so little AI opponents made the game superb comparing to other games I participated, and I beleive all players from YARG have the same feeling and expect the same no AI policy here. So placing AI on the map from the start is not even an option to me. Calahan made a hard work balancing the map, and I don't think it would be fair to make him to do the rebalancing.
So, I would prefer to find a sub.

[Lingchih]

Really? OK. I'm going camping then. I'll see you all in a few days.

[WraithLord]

23 is enough. If we wait more players will start drifting away. rdonj, I suggest you just start the game.

[WingedDog]

I just posted a sub thread. Sorry if I did anything wrong.

[Agusti]

Hi, I'm Tir. I thought the game was not still created. Today I will send my pretender, don't worry.

I will do it when I get home, ASAP.

The funny thing is that I created my Pretender this weekend but I don't visit Llamaserver to see if the game was already created. Sorry.


See you.

[Dimaz]

I think contacting rdonj so he posts your explanation here would have been a better idea. However, since only 1 player removed the mask, I don't think we should reroll nations now. Let's just start the game already.

[WraithLord]

Agusti, this game’s most important house rules are no diplomacy and anonymity. This was stated in the OP and mentioned more than once throughout this thread. By posting your nation’s ID you broke the game rules. I’m certain this was by mistake and that’s why I tend to agree with Dimaz and allow you to play nonetheless.
Please make sure not to post anything re. your identity here anymore. Further breaches of the house rules are not acceptable.

EDIT: oh and plz make sure to send your pretender ASAP. Tomorrow the game would be started either way since it's not fair to keep everyone waiting.

[Agusti]

Ok. Sorry :doh:

[WraithLord]

NP. I would have preferred a perfect, by the rules, start but as they say: war plans are only good before the war starts, after which you do with what you got :)

let's just get the game rolling.

[rdonj]

I see a lot has happened since I went to sleep :) Yes, in the future, if you (anyone) want to say something in this thread that could expose your identity, please say it through me. I'll do it as quickly as possible and the other players will understand any delay or censoring involved.

[rdonj]

All pretenders are in and the game is on. If you did not get a turn, request a resend from the llamaserver. Here is the game page to do that: http://www.llamaserver.net/gameinfo.cgi?game=YARG2

If you STILL do not get a turn, let me know and we'll try to sort things out.

[Calahan]

@ Rytek - Did you manage to unpack the map file ok?


@ All - For all those who haven't yet done so, can you please make sure you have downloaded the map AND successfully unzipped it asap. Since the last thing rdonj needs as admin is someone PM-ing him (or worse, posting in this thread) an hour before hosting asking how to unzip the map file.

This thread should go very quiet from now on apart from posts by the admin (as is the usual for RAND games). So I'll take this last opportunity to wish everyone the best of luck. Hope you all enjoy the game. And a final reminder to everyone to only PM rdonj regarding anything to do with admin jobs for this game (delay requests etc), and please DO NOT post admin requests in this thread (don't PM WraithLord either for that matter, as he is a player and not the admin).

And of course if you do need to drop out of the game for any reason, please don't just set your nation AI, as that affects the game negatively for everyone who is still playing. Instead, please PM rdonj so that a sub can (hopefully) be found to take over your nation. Even if you think your position is hopeless, some players actually enjoy taking on these hopeless positions to perfect their fort defending skills :) YARG1 had a good record for keeping nations out of the hands of the AI, and I'm pretty sure a lot of the players who have signed up for this sequel will be hoping for a continuation of that trend.


Right, talking over, the battlefield awaits us all :fight:

[rdonj]

So we have already found a pre-game issue :) I'm going to unstart the game and get that fixed... then wait for the next one :)

[Rytek]

@ Calahan--> Yes, figured it out. I err, clicked on one of the google ads below the link and dl the wrong program while waiting on the D7 link to start uploading. File Helper. I am a bit embarrased, but the stupid ad was misleading and it was late and I wasnt paying attention.

[rdonj]

Guys, we have had a disturbing number of stales for just the first 4 turns. 3 stales on turn 4 is 3 too many! If you need extensions, ASK FOR THEM. I will not be watching the game status page very closely, and especially at this stage of the game I have no intention of granting delays for people whose turns are looking like they won't get in on time who do not ask me for an extension. I also highly advise you to check the game status page shortly after sending in your turn! The llamaserver sometimes has issues and needs a little extra prodding to make sure things move smoothly. One or more of the current stales is/are confirmed to be due to turn files that were thought to have been turned in. Probably not a llamaserver issue at this point, but please, practice safe playing.

This has been a message from your friendly neighborhood admin. Thank you and have a nice day.

[Squirrelloid]

For future reference, difficult research is probably a mistake, especially for the EA.

[Psycho]

For future reference, difficult research is probably a mistake, especially for the EA.

Why?

[ghoul31]

For future reference, difficult research is probably a mistake, especially for the EA.

Why?

Because it gives a big advantage to the giant races that don't rely on research. I think that's what he is saying.

[13lackGu4rd]

For future reference, difficult research is probably a mistake, especially for the EA.

Why?

Because it gives a big advantage to the giant races that don't rely on research. I think that's what he is saying.

not just giants but pretty much all heavy bless/thug nations, including Mictlan, Lanka, Yomi, etc... also EA doesn't have as good national armies as later eras, so getting stuck with them for too long, especially if not a bless nation, you're at a severe disadvantage. thinking mainly about Ermor, Ulm, C'tis, Marverni, etc...

[Psycho]

Why?

Because it gives a big advantage to the giant races that don't rely on research. I think that's what he is saying.

not just giants but pretty much all heavy bless/thug nations, including Mictlan, Lanka, Yomi, etc... also EA doesn't have as good national armies as later eras, so getting stuck with them for too long, especially if not a bless nation, you're at a severe disadvantage. thinking mainly about Ermor, Ulm, C'tis, Marverni, etc...

I was hoping for something more insightful than this conventional wisdom.

[Squirrelloid]

Its conventional wisdom because its true. People complain about bless rush nations even at normal research settings. Arguably an EA RAND game should be set to easy research, since there are no diplomatic solutions available.

[Dimaz]

But in YARG1 with hard research settings, early bless rush nations weren't particularly effective.

[Squirrelloid]

But in YARG1 with hard research settings, early bless rush nations weren't particularly effective.

*YARG1 was LA. LA has less exceedingly good early bless rush nations, so the problem is smaller. And many of the potential bless rush nations also have other interesting things they can choose to do.
*I am forced to conclude nations like Mictlan were played by total n00bs if that is the case. (I did not play in YARG1, I do not know how it turned out, but if Mictlan failed to kill someone fast under difficult research, then they sucked.)

[13lackGu4rd]

But in YARG1 with hard research settings, early bless rush nations weren't particularly effective.

conventional wisdom, perhaps, but you failed to understand it :rolleyes: there's a huge difference between EA and LA... not only does EA have a lot more bless rush nations, it also has much weaker national armies which means that all nations are more reliant on magic than in LA. so with hard research in EA, nations without good sacreds are at an even larger disadvantage because they can't rush research fast enough to compete with a nation with bless rush potential.

yes, I know that the difference between the eras is conventional wisdom, it even says so in the guide itself... so it either slipped your mind or for some reason you failed to grasp it :doh:

[WingedDog]

There are indies 9 out there, aren't they slowing rushes a bit?

[Dimaz]

I'm aware about LA and EA differences, and if we are talking about ideal game with equally skilled players you're right, bless nations will have some advantage under these settings. However we are talking about real game and real players here, and my point (sorry for not making it clear in the first post) is that player skill (with particular nation, since nations are assigned and not chosen) plays greater role than the bless rush ability.

[WraithLord]

Ahmm, we shall see as the game progresses how effective indeed are the bless nations under these research settings.

This discussion is being conducted on too many general lines. Like bless nations like this and EA nations are that, etc. Not all bless nations are same, not all EA nations armies are same. There's a lot of room for nuances.

Hvy bless is very good early in the game and later gives diminishing returns. This is always true, no argument here.
With hard research it would seem as though the "early" game takes longer thus favoring bless nations.
However, to counter that are: a- bless nations struggle even more with research and b- If you don't have a bless nation and prepare for hard research you can get to the key spells your nation needs real fast. Like take awake research pretender +M2/3 scales.

Let's see what conclusions we'll be able to draw from this game. If we find that bless nations ruled the day I will certainly consider hard research a mistake. Meantime I ask for your patience. Let the game develop a bit before reaching conclusions.

[Squirrelloid]

There are indies 9 out there, aren't they slowing rushes a bit?

Indies 9 hurts nations who have a rougher time of early expansion under normal conditions far more than it hurts nations who have an easy time expanding. Bless rush nations should hardly be slowed.

[WingedDog]

Indies 9 hurts nations who have a rougher time of early expansion under normal conditions far more than it hurts nations who have an easy time expanding. Bless rush nations should hardly be slowed.

According to scoregraphs of this game Mictlan, Lanka and Hinnom do not expand as fast as C'tis and Arco do so far.

[Squirrelloid]

Indies 9 hurts nations who have a rougher time of early expansion under normal conditions far more than it hurts nations who have an easy time expanding. Bless rush nations should hardly be slowed.

According to scoregraphs of this game Mictlan, Lanka and Hinnom do not expand as fast as C'tis and Arco do so far.

Of course, I see you were careful to omit Niefl.

I can't really say anything without drawing conclusions from the scoregraphs, which is saying too much, at this point.

[WingedDog]

Of course, I see you were careful to omit Niefl.


And other 18 nations as well.

[Calahan]

Wow people, lots of chat that IMO is bordering on getting too relevant for this current game, and therefore running the risk, even if unintentional, of revealing those secret superhero identities we are all carrying around with us.

Research settings v Bless nations v Era, etc. etc. is a fascinating subject for sure, but can I warmly recommend that a separate thread on the main forum be created for those who wish to bash-out the arguments relating to this issue.

On this topic though, Burnsaber created a mod for the very purpose of helping nations fight bless rushes in games that have higher research requirements.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=43893

Maybe this thread is a good one to move the current conversation to.


And some of you........it's turn 5/6 FFS! How anyone can draw any conclusions on this issue based on just this game, and from just the first 5 turns, truly amazes me. I'd be very frightened if anyone drawing conclusions at this stage had any real life jobs that involved doing rigorous and intensive research in any way.

"Hurray, I've found a cure for the common cold!!! I gave one person some medicine, and his cold went away. I conclude from this that this medicine will forever save the world from runny noses and sore throats!".

[Squirrelloid]

I haven't concluded anything based on this game. I'm drawing conclusions based on year 1 tests with various nations and other games I've played in. What I've said only relates to this game insofar as the era and research difficulty are as specified.

I could draw conclusions about what people are doing based on this game, but that would be inappropriate, and would not necessarily be a conclusion about the nation but about the activities of the person playing it.

[rdonj]

Hey guys! I hear some of you didn't quite follow pretender naming instructions. No one seems to have given anything away, but you were supposed to give your pretender the same name as your nation. Watch out for this kind of thing, okay?

[rdonj]

A number of people are asking me for weekend extensions, so this is just heads up to everyone that when the current turn hosts, I'm adding a 48 hour delay to the timer. I believe this will be sufficient to allow everyone to complete their turns.

[Lingchih]

What's up with the delay? I see no requests for one.

This game is going to take like 19 years to finish. I would hope that we could at least get the initial turns done in a timely matter.

[Dimaz]

Hosting Pace: First 15 turns every 24h, turns 15-30 48h, turn 30-45 72h, turn 45-60 96h, turn > 61 120h.
Considerate extension giving policy.
Hosting is planned for busy ppl.

Also, don't post here anything that can reveal information regarding you or other nations.
So it was stated from the beginning that 1) this is NOT going to be fast-paced game 2) all delay requests (as they can potentially reveal the identity by looking at the list of received turns) should be sent to rdonj only, and he decides if he make the public delay announcement or not.

[rdonj]

Yeah, I've not been posting to tell about all delays I've been asked to grant. I think I've had about a half dozen delay requests at this point. I only mentioned the one because I felt that, being so early, a 48 hour delay might prove a bit controversial ;). So I just wanted you lot to know about it, just in case.

[Lingchih]

Castigation noted. I'll shut up now, and I apologize. I actually had not noticed the slow pace of the game until I went back and re-read the OP. My bad.

[rdonj]

It's alright ling, I was not offended.

Also, as per the OP the hosting interval for the game has been increased to 48 hours (just in case no one noticed yet). Thanks wraithlord for pointing that out to me. I always forget about those....

[rdonj]

Guys - it has come to my attention that a few of you have been talking a little too much in one or more current forum threads that can be traced back to this game, and may be giving your identities away. I guess we have already made an exception for a player this game, but much of the point of a rand game is that no one knows who you are. It would really be best not to engage in such discussions, even if there has already been more than one breach of secrecy.

[Agusti]

¿Why so many days to finish a turn? ¿Four, five days to send a turn? :sick:

I know that is not a fast paced game but 4 o 5 days/turns is too many and we're in the early stage of the game.:shock:

[Psycho]

That was a one-time delay of 48h. We are on 48h schedule now.

[Stagger Lee]

¿Why so many days to finish a turn? ¿Four, five days to send a turn? :sick:

I know that is not a fast paced game but 4 o 5 days/turns is too many and we're in the early stage of the game.:shock:

Due to the structure of this game, not everything is posted in the thread. Any questions about timing will best be answered by the non-player admin rdonj, who is trusted with all knowledge, and has always been extremely helpful. :)

[WingedDog]

There was a national celebration in some countries last weekend, so posibly 48 hours delay was connected with this fact.

[Gregstrom]

Or you have a British politician in the game :D

[rdonj]

Yeah, a few people had requested a 48 hour delay over the weekend.

[rdonj]

Someone is in need of a sub, so I'm opening a sub thread. Delays to the current turn are likely to apply, and there will be a minimum of a 24 hour delay for the sub to get acquainted with their nation.

[rdonj]

Alright, with memorial day weekend coming up, it looks as though some players are looking for delays on tturns running during that time period. If you plan on being gone during that period of time, pm me to let me know so I can work out a reasonable delay schedule. One person I've heard from was willing to take a stale since they plan on being gone for much of a week, but I would rather avoid that.

[Calahan]

Thanks again rdonj for all the selfless work you are doing for us in this game.

As no rdonj = no YARG games. So much appreciation is due :up:

Or you have a British politician in the game :D
I must say that since I recently lost my day job of going around calling people bigots, I've had a lot more time to play Dominions :)

My job also involved making a few trivial social and economic type decisions now and again, but I could just wing them all the time as they weren't that important to me. Other people thought they were important, which I found a bit weird to be honest. But then again the same people also tended to just blow everything out of all proportion, so I was just ignoring them by the end. All bloody bigots anyway.

[rdonj]

Postponement added while looking for sub. I have someone talking to me but they have yet to make a commitment.

[rdonj]

Sub is found. Everyone please give a hand to (this space intentionally left blank) for taking up the reigns of (undisclosed nation). An additional 24 hours have been added for a total delay of 48 hours on the current turn, please try to get your turns in within this time frame.

[rdonj]

The sub was having some difficulty extracting the map... calahan, did you make that with 7zip? I had to go really out of my way to open it myself! Anyway, attached is a .rar version to allow him to extract it. Hopefully this works.

[rdonj]

Memorial Day delay has been added to the timer. This is a pretty long delay, so please try to get your turns in before the next hosting.

[WraithLord]

Turn 30 and not even one player is out!

I take it as a measure of the tenacity and skill level of the players. Kudos all :)

[Squirrelloid]

Turn 30 and not even one player is out!

I take it as a measure of the tenacity and skill level of the players. Kudos all :)

Or some players are just lame. =P

[WraithLord]

:lol

Could it be that we're all lame players?- That could also explain this remarkable land mark. ;)

[WingedDog]

I'd say it's because of wraparound map.
You wouldn't throw all your forces at your neighbour knowing there are lots of potential enemies surrounding you from all sides.

Also I haven't seen any lame players around me, but again I might be lame myself. :)

[Calahan]

Also I haven't seen any lame players around me....
I see nothing but a lame player everywhere I look!!!!

But then I do live in a house full of mirrors :)

[Stagger Lee]

But then I do live in a house full of mirrors :)

Vanity, thy name is ... Calahan?

[Calahan]

But then I do live in a house full of mirrors :)
Vanity, thy name is ... Calahan?
I lined up that comeback beautifully for myself I must say :lol:

[Lingchih]

Ahh, I see we've gone to a once a week game. Nice. That will keep players interested.

[Squirrelloid]

I thought the point of RAND games was to play faster because no one had to conduct diplomacy...

[TwoBits]

Unfortunately, as we get into summer, it's likely to get worse.

[Squirrelloid]

Yes, but its not even turn 40 yet. Whose turn can possibly be taking more than an hour or so at this point? If you can't spend an hour every 2 days, there's something wrong with your time budgeting.

[WraithLord]

Maybe someone has no internet access or expects a baby this week or some such...

I trust in rdonj's judgment not to hold us all waiting in vain.

[rdonj]

As it turns out someone died. 48 hours isn't so much to ask in this case, is it?

I realize this game has a lot of extensions. So did the last YARG. The policy for this game is liberal hosting delays, which definitely any previous YARG player is aware of, and is stated in the opening post. So far about half of the hosting delays have been for very good reasons beyond a person just being busy. YARG games are RAND games for busy people... don't be too surprised at the laid back pace. This will continue. There may not be delays every turn, but it was not at all uncommon in the last one to have a delay every other turn after a certain point, though that did calm down a bit. Just chill out and wait for the turns. They will come.

[Aethyr]

Thanks rdonj for the work you are doing.

[Calahan]

As shocking as I'm sure this will sound to some of those who read this, but there are actually players in the Dominions community who like slow paced MP games :shock:

Sometimes it's because they like the extra time it allows them to put deeper thought into their turns. Sometimes it's because they have another game or two going, and like doing just one turn in one game each day. Sometimes it's just because they are slow players. And sometimes it's because their brains just work very slowly, and no amount of forcing it to work quicker will help. (I've included this latter point just for me :))

Often though it's a case of they just don't have the time, or sometimes more to the point is that they don't want to have the time. It sounds easy to say something like "you only need to find one hour to complete a turn over the space of 48 hours". But some people genuinely find that time hard to find on a monotonously regular basis over a several month period. Then there are others who actually don't want to devote time every single day for six months to playing Dominions.


For me, slower paced games play a definite and distinct role in the Dominions MP scene. Since it allows players who, for any number of reasons, can only play in a slow pace, to be able to play MP games of Dominions. And for those players who actually want to play a slower paced game. As these players are basically excluded from every regular MP game simply because they struggle, and they know they will struggle, to keep up with the 'normal' pace of those games. I'd take a good bet that many of the players from the first YARG game have only signed up for this sequel because they liked the pace of the first game. And some who haven't returned, haven't returned because after experiencing it, they found they didn't like the pace.


The argument surrounding slow paced games has come up several times before. Slower paced games do in fact work perfectly. They work just as perfectly as normal paced games, and just as perfectly as faster paced games. The only thing that tends to mar any of these game types is when players have signed up to a pace they personally don't like. And the fault lies there in those players, not in the actual pacing of the game.

The most sure-fire way to spoil any fast paced game is if players need regular delays. As that results in complaints from the annoyed players who signed up specifically because it was advertised as a fast paced game. And that's a 100% valid argument and complaint. Well the same works in reverse too you know, and the only thing that mars slow paced games is people complaining about the slow pace of the game.

Plus in this actual game, the schedule was advertised the moment the game was created, and it has never been altered. As it is the exact same schedule as the first YARG game. With the exact same 'generous delay' policy as well. So I don't see how there can be any complaints about the slow pace unless players omitted to fully read the rules and settings written in the original post when they signed up. Which is again the fault of the player and not the pace of the game.


What I find interesting is that during my time in the Dominions MP community, the same type of players who complain about delays in slow paced games, are often the same type of players who complain about delays in fast paced games. Ok, we get it, you like a really fast pace to your games, but please don't expect all other players to share you pacing views, and please don't complain about the slow pace of a slow paced game. Since the fault lies entirely with the individual doing the complaining, as he or she has signed up for a pace of game they themselves don't like.

I don't particularly like Thai food, so just about the last thing I'd do is specifically go into a Thai restaurant for a meal, and then all my time there do nothing but complain about the Thai food! How stupid and moronic would that be like?!?! As I'm pretty sure all the other customers in the restaurant are only there simply because they actually like Thai food :) and I'd just look like a complete retard for complaining about it. Well........snap.

[Squirrelloid]

Liberal delays are one thing, but you hardly expect there to be a multi-day delay *every turn*.

Of course, my situation in the game is probably contributing to my desire for a little faster pace at the moment, but I really can't say more than that.

I don't mind a slow pace to a game. But I generally prefer there to be diplomacy if its going to be this slow.

[Calahan]

Liberal delays are one thing, but you hardly expect there to be a multi-day delay *every turn*.
There are 24 players still in the game you know. That's a lot of players, and if just half of them have requested a delay to date, then that easily accounts for the number of delays seen in this game.

Plus the actual Real Life time period covered with this game so far has seen it clash with national holidays in several different countries. So extensions that were granted for these occasions should not be considered unreasonable in any way. In fact in games with 20+ players in I think delays for national holidays should be mandatory without anyone even having to ask for one.

[Lingchih]

It's no biggee now. I was annoyed at first, even though I knew it would be slow-paced, but I never expected 1 turn a week pace. I've gotten over it. I just check once a week to see if it's hosted now.

[WraithLord]

Strange. Game should have hosted yesterday. Quick host is on but it hasn't hosted yet :confused:

[rdonj]

Yeah, the llamaserver is acting up a bit right now and isn't hosting any games, apparently. I may have inadvertently been responsible for this. Moving on, there are a few players with outstanding turns whom I've notified of their impending stales. If all turns getin I can try to force host and see what happens... I'm not 100% convinced this is a good idea.

[WraithLord]

I have a bad feeling re. force host. Like the server hosting twice and force a rollback -> ugly.

I suggest to wait until llama does his magic and get's the server fixed.

[rdonj]

Yes, that is my feeling as well. I can imagine that is the exact sort of idea that would make all sorts of unexpected bugs crop up. That's settled then, definitely no forced hosting.

[Squirrelloid]

Ok, why are we rolled back to turn 33? I definitely got sent a turn 34 this morning, and haven't heard anything since, either from llamaserver or in this thread - wth? If you couldn't get your turn in by the deadline, and you didn't ask for an extension (and llamaserver was still processing extensions till host time), too bad.

(Now i'm going to have to do all that rescripting again. F'ing rollbacks.)

[rdonj]

I've done nothing to the current turn. Apparently the llamaserver errors are just blowing everything up right now. I most certainly did NOT do a rollback, and I don't think wraithlord would have done one without telling me.

[Calahan]

@ rdonj - You might want to consider force hosting turn 33 before anyone sends a turn file in.

Since as it stands now, we could have the bigger problem of players submitting altered turns for turn 33, and thereby either intentionally, or unintentionally, gaining an advantage from the knowledge they gained from the turn 34 file the llamaserver sent out before it decided to instigate a random rollback.

If you force host now, then the worst scenario you will have is that everyone staled (as maybe the llamasever wiped out the .2h files it stored for turn 33, instead of storing them as it usually does) and you will have to rollback again to turn 33 and let everyone re-submit their turns. But if that happens, then you will be in the same position as now, so will have lost nothing.

If it does successfully rehost though, the game will just continue as normal, and as long as everyone is told to delete all instances of the original turn 34 they received, then everything should be ok.


If new turn 33 files start getting sent in though, this could all get a bit messy IMO :(

[rdonj]

mmm... is the llamaserver fixed yet? I don't know that we should do anything until that is the case. Force hosting seems like a reasonable plan, but I don't want to do that if it is going to mess things up any further.

Edit: Upon further review I think it is safe currently to try to do a forced hosting. If everyone does stale I am not convinced that a rollback is a good idea though. So, I am going to do it. As long as no bugs crop up we will continue forward regardless of mass staling or not.

[Psycho]

I only got a normal turn 34 and then a force-hosted turn 35. I have no idea what all the talk about rollbacks and changed turns is about. Please roll-back to 34, it makes a difference.

[Squirrelloid]

Wait, you got a turn 35? Not only did I not get that, Llamaserver said the game was on turn 33! (Its now back on 34, and I am still confused!)

[Squirrelloid]

oh wow, this is made of fail.

The server is sending a different turn number than it thinks its on. Llamaserver thinks its on turn 34, it just sent me an email saying it was turn 34, but when i dled the turn it thinks its turn 35. Of course, this means any attempt to submit a turn will fail, because it'll read the incoming turn as 35, which is not 34, and tell you that you submitted the wrong turn!

Strangely enough, my turn e-mail this morning claimed it was for turn 34 (while the server displayed 33 and the game displayed 34), but the new email also claimed 34 (server displays 34, game displays 35).

Horribly horribly broken!

[rdonj]

I guess the only sensible answer is to send out the llamasignal. Let's do that and see what happens!

[Calahan]

:) So the llamaserver tricked us into thinking it did a rollback, when it actually just changed the turn number on it's emails and status page to make it appear the game had rolled-back. That's certainly a good one :lol: and confirms the llamaserver is definitly developing a personality all to itself.


Options now are either to wait until llamabeast wades in to bust some heads open. Or roll the game back, make sure everyone knows to use the most recent turn file, and then wait to see (and hear) if it will accept turn files. Or not, because the servers current turn number for the game is out-of-synch with the game's actual current turn number. (as it might be the game that checks if the turn files are correct rather than the llamaserver. If it's the game that checks them, things should be ok. Apart from the out-of-synch status page and emails that is)

[Psycho]

The turn number in the email is different from the actual turn number, that is the only problem. Wait for llamabeast to do his magic and then roll back to turn 34, nobody submit anything in the meantime. Then use the received turn 34 to continue.

[rdonj]

:) So the llamaserver tricked us into thinking it did a rollback, when it actually just changed the turn number on it's emails and status page to make it appear the game had rolled-back. That's certainly a good one :lol: and confirms the llamaserver is definitly developing a personality all to itself.


Options now are either to wait until llamabeast wades in to bust some heads open. Or roll the game back, make sure everyone knows to use the most recent turn file, and then wait to see (and hear) if it will accept turn files. Or not, because the servers current turn number for the game is out-of-synch with the game's actual current turn number. (as it might be the game that checks if the turn files are correct rather than the llamaserver. If it's the game that checks them, things should be ok. Apart from the out-of-synch status page and emails that is)

Yeah, the llamaserver has learned how to play pranks on us :)

[llamabeast]

Ok, I haven't looked into the details here, but the server's turn number is now correct. If you guys did a force host, maybe you'll want to do a rollback. Or perhaps you should just continue from where you are.

Sorry about the problems. Turns out it all arises from a typo on Tuesday. Butterflies and all that.

[rdonj]

Thank you llamabeast. I'm rolling back the turn now... pray all goes well, everyone.

[Stagger Lee]

I'm sure you know this rdonj, but the game's gone. Llamasignal? :help:

[Squirrelloid]

This game comes with a terrible curse!

...but it also comes with a free frogurt!

[WraithLord]

Guys, ATM YARG2 game is not listed as an active game on the server. I've no idea what's going on or how long it would take to fix but I strongly urge everyone not to submit any turns now. We will sort this all out eventually and I'm sure rdonj will give enough time for ppl to submit their turns.

Poor poor llama server - It's not feeling well now :sick:
Get some rest you sturdy beast and don't forget your medicine ;)

[llamabeast]

Okay, hopefully I've restored it, but I think it can't be rolled back. It got itself in a tangle when backing up the turn files on account of being wrong about the turn number.

[Squirrelloid]

Err... my new turn e-mail just claimed to be turn 36, and the server is showing turn 35. I'm hesitant to try to actually do anything with it...

Edit: Game thinks its turn 36 too. Um... Where's our time machine?

[WraithLord]

Thank you llamabeast.

Now we have incoming turn 36 and rolled back turn 35. Which should we play?

Also, Sharivar1 game was on 120h schedule and is now on 24 - meaning all the players would stale. For some reason the admin pwd has been changed (probably due to glitch). Can you please restore my admin powers for Sharivar1?

[llamabeast]

Yep, sorry about that! For some reason when I restored it it instantly hosted. So:

IGNORE the turn 36.

PLAY the rolled back turn 35.

Hopefully you can move on smoothly from here. Apologies again for the lost turn 34.

[Stagger Lee]

Just a suggestion - I will be deleting .2h and .trn files from Yarg2 folder before ending this turn and submitting. I believe this reduces the chance of conflicts going forward.

[Psycho]

Is there no way to roll-back to turn 34? Or to 33 and redo that one? The stale is seriously hurting me.

[llamabeast]

Psycho - I'm very sorry but I don't think so, no.

If it helps, I guess you could consider it a rather major random event ("magic storms prevent the pretender communicating with his kingdom for a month").

[Psycho]

That is most unfortunate. I am not happy, but I guess I'll have to live with it.

[WraithLord]

If it helps I'm also not happy, but I'll see it as llamabeast describes it - another major bad event :)