Countdown

[chrispedersen]

Hosting: Llamaserver
Map: Crown (modified Riverlands) attached.

Turns: 24 hours for first 10. +8 hours every 10 thereafter. Or as proposed and accepted by a majority.
CBM: 1.6.

Liberal delays, no rollbacks. This will be a Baalz good player pledge game: you will be asked and expected to play till the end, to the best of your ability. If you drop out, you will be shamed in thread !

Should a player stale one turn in three, we will endeavor to postpone the game should a second stale seem likely. During this time we will look for a replacement player. The first player will be eligible to continue so long as he responds prior to a replacement player submitting a turn.

Please remember that there are liberal delays. Please, be courteous to your competitors, and ask in thread.


Victory Points: The victory points mechanism in game is not useable. Still I've grown rather attached to the concept of victory points. IF the game is won by accumulated victory points, it means players may be less likely to knock out players.
So, even players that are not in the running to win, may be in a position to influence the game, and will have the ability to experiment with mid/endgame spells, tactics et.


We merely institute a system where all players must self report. Failure to report means no VP earned. Either way, VP's will be reported here in the opening post. Balbarians map has 12 vp total. I therefor propose to make the VP condition 100 vps.

Using the Riverlands module I would propose to make the center island and all five water provinces victory provinces. Each province would additionally be guaranteed a site for one gem type.


Special Game Rule: No fortifying these victory points.

............126, 101, 81.
Turn 31.....Ver.....
Turn 32.....Ver..Ver
Turn 33.....Ver..Ver..Ver
Turn 34.....Ver..Ver..Ver
.
.
.

Turn 44.....81 101 105
Turn 45 81 101 105
Turn 46 81 101 105
Turn 47 81 105
Turn 48 81 105
Turn 49 ????
Turn 50 81 101: Ermor; 105 Ver
Turn 51 101, 124, 83 Ermor 105 Ver
Turn 52 105 Ver
Turn 53 105 Ver
Total Vp: Ver:53 Grounds 5



Current bids:

TC: 12 (Wilbur).........email address received.....................Dead!
Pangea: 8 (Legolas).....email address received.....................Dead!
TNN: 0 (Pablomatic)..........FakeyMcFake
Ermor: 0 (Grounds)......... Now played by StaggerLee
Marverni: 10 (Two Bits).....email address received
Yomi 3 (debaser)........email address received
Hinnom: 45 (pyg).......email address received
Niefle: 25 (Cammorak)...........email address received.....................Dead!
Kailasa: 15 PeaceKeeper;iamofage.......Now played by Maerlande.
Lanka: 25 (Alpine Joe) replaced by rmcolosimo.....................Dead!
Helheim :15 (Hoplosternum)
Abysia : 0 DrP .......email address received
Arcos : 5 Verjigorm...............email address received


Good luck..

[GrudgeBringer]

Chris, you want to play...I will inspect the Pretenders, and do whatever you need me to do...I would love to play but am in too amny now .

[militarist]

What a perfect approach. Unfortunately struck in too many games now already, but I believe such nation auction is a must for all games.

[Willburn]

If I can play: T'ien Ch'i: 388.

[Quitti]

By looking at the nation list, I presume this is an EA game. What are the rules on diplomacy? What about other settings such as site frequency? Victory conditions?

[legolasjrt]

Is EA Game?
I used Pangea.

[Grounds]

I would love to sign-up for a game.

I'll take Ermor at the starting bid of 400.

Let me know if that's right or if I need to do anything else to play the game.

[pyg]

I'll bid 355 on Hinnom.

I'm a bit surprised (based on posts elsewhere) that you rate Hinnom and Sauromatia the same.

[Belac]

The HoF is not a good measure of nations' strength. While nations with many wins are generally stronger than nations with fewer, nation popularity does play a significant role.

Also, how would this work with the game engine? You can only get 400 design points by going dormant, so an Ermor(400 points) who wants an awake god would be restricted to Sauromatia(355)-level god power.

[Baalz]

Yomi: 400

[TwoBits]

Crap Baalz, Yomi was looking good to me at 400. It's always surprised me how much folks hate on Yomi, while I've liked them since even before CBM made the cheaper. I suspect your looking to make a worthy guide for these guys? I'd be all for that.

Well, since Yomi is off the table, I'll pretend I have a chance, and go for Marverni at the suggested 390.

(or, could I bid 399 for Yomi, and steal them from Baalz? is that how this is working?)

[LoloMo]

Should probably set some minimum step bid, for example, a lower bid should be at least 20 lower than the lowest bid, to be able to settle the auction in a reasonable time.

[chrispedersen]

By looking at the nation list, I presume this is an EA game. What are the rules on diplomacy? What about other settings such as site frequency? Victory conditions?

I'm neutral on most other things. The usual victory conditions are capitols, with half +1 required.

I personally prefer accumulated vp on non fortified victory provinces (this tends to keep more players in the game). But I am willing to go with majority desires.

[chrispedersen]

Baalz: Excellent choice
TwoBits: Yes, you may bid lower than baalz.

Belac: Good point. I will change the auction process somewhat, so that the points bid will be the points that must remain, and I will lift the original idea of a dormant or imprisoned pretender. First post is updated with the current rules.

Pyg: I do view hinnom, and ashdod especially as stronger than any other nations. I also view the handicaps for sauromatia, and hinnom as under representative of their true strength.

However, this is a game, and I believe that *more* choices are a good thing. Starting bids are just that - starting. In this case all players are free to bid down on hinnom, figure out how to deal with hinnom in game, or gank him with diplomacy.

Grudgebringer: Thank you! I accept!

[Pablomatic]

I would be new to multi-player, but I feel I qualify as fairly experienced in SP (3 yrs) and have read all the strategy guides on the forums for advice, etc.

If you'll have me, I am anxious to try Tir na n'og for 400 pts. I think I can put up a fight.

I understand if you don't want someone you don't know in your experienced players game, but let me know one way or the other please.

[GrudgeBringer]

Just let me know what/when/how you want it done...and I'll take care of it.

[chrispedersen]

Lolo: I would like to get vigorous bidding on nations. If it looks as if the auction is going to go too long, I will institute a minumum step. But for now... its 1.

[chrispedersen]

Certainly .. you are welcome to play Pablomatic. As a new player, I'd like to give you extra points .. but that hasn't gone over well historically. Maybe if the auction concept catches on, next time.

[pyg]

Pyg: I do view hinnom, and ashdod especially as stronger than any other nations. I also view the handicaps for sauromatia, and hinnom as under representative of their true strength.


Hmmm, I thought the point was to handicap them relative to their true strength. Also I should be listed as having bid 45 on Hinnom.

I agree with LoloMo that there should be a bid increment. 10-20 sounds about right to me.

[Pablomatic]

Thank you chrispederson. Very welcoming of you.

I would feel funny taking extra points. Let me take my chances with all the rest. I might get outbid anyway.

I assume I keep checking back here about the bidding, and then you send server info once we're ready to start.

[Grounds]

I'm sorry, but I only seem to be able to get 350 points to spend on my god when I go to test. How do I give myself more points to work with.

[chrispedersen]

Oh. Grounds, you will definitely want to look under the strategy index for hints on how to play ermor.

That being said, you get additional points by under awakening choosing to make your pretender either asleep or imprisoned.

I've changed the bidding somewhat, however right now your bid is 0 and ermor - meaning that you do not have to leave any points left over.

However, if someone out bids you, you will = )

[Squirrelloid]

lol@Agartha not starting at 0.

Hell, Agartha should be given a handicap. Not that I know how you'd actually implement such a thing, but starting at -50 seems fair.

[Verjigorm]

I'll bid 395 for Arcoscephale.

[chrispedersen]

The premise of the game is that some nations are way strong; playing with these nations is an advantage.

To level the playing field players will have reduced points to build their pretenders, depending on their hall of fame strength with certain exceptions.

Signups will not be first come first serve, they will be lowest bidder wins.

Points bid are the points that must remain unspent on your pretender design screen and will be verified by the game administrator (at this point, grudge).

Sauromatia: 45
Caelum: 30
Niefelheim: 25
Fomoria: 25
Lanka: 20
Mictlan: 20
C'tis: 18
Helheim: 15
Hinnom: 45
Kailasa: 15
T'ien Ch'i: 12
Vanheim: 12
Ulm: 10
Marverni: 10
Pangaea: 8
R'lyeh: 7
Argatha: 5
Arcoscephale: 5
Yomi: 0
Oceania: 0
Ermor: 0
Abysia: 0
Tir na n'Og: 0
Atlantis: 0

Hosting: Llamaserver
Turns: 24 hours for first 10. +8 hours every 10 thereafter. Or as proposed and accepted by a majority.
CBM: 1.6.

Liberal delays, no rollbacks. Map will be as desired by participants. This will be a Baalz good player pledge game: you will be asked and expected to play till the end, to the best of your ability. If you drop out, you will be shamed in thread !

In an effort to keep the game interesting for those on the losing end, I propose that there will be approximately 4 victory points. Victory will be earned by he that accumulates 150 victory points.

Special Game Rule: No fortifying these 4 victory points.

Current bids:

TC: 12 (Wilbur)
Pangea: 8 (Legolas)
TNN: 0 (Pablomatic)
Ermor: 0 (Grounds)
Marverni: 10 (Two Bits)
Yomi: 3 ChrisPedersen Previous Yomi: 0 (Baalz)
Hinnom: 45 (pyg)
Arco: 5 Verjigorm

If you outbid someone, please let them know in the interests of fairplay and keeping the bidding moving quickly!

[Cammorak]

Sounds like a great premise. I'm in the same boat as Pablomatic as far as experience goes. Regardless, let's see how the big blue morons fare with a bit of the wind out of their sails.

Niefelheim at 25

[chrispedersen]

Bump..

To get a good competitive game we need bids, players.. pass the news to your friends, neighbors... If we don't get any bids for 36 more hours we'll go as is.. but I really would like to get a few bids and players in!

[Peacekeeper]

id like to buy Kailasa for 15.

[Alpine Joe]

I will buy Lanka for 25

[Hoplosternum]

I can take another game. And this one looks interesting. Having blown my earlier attempt at playing helheim I would like another try :) So I'll bid 15 for them.

[DrPraetorious]

Ermor 0.

OOPS! Um, okay... I'll take Abysia for the base bid of 0.

[chrispedersen]

Excellent DrP!

I'm really pleased (and surprised) about the number of 'weaker' nations being played. Interesting!

Guys please check back to check your bids...

[Willburn]

My bid is ok. 12 point deduction from my starting points. Good luck to all and I pledge to be a good multiplayer and not quit when im opposed. I will make sure to fight to the last province.

[Verjigorm]

My bid (Arco: 5) hasn't been appended to the original post.

[legolasjrt]

My bid is ok. 8 points.

[Peacekeeper]

good to go on kailasa.

[thejeff]

I can't join in, but either I don't understand cumulative victory points or your condition doesn't work.
IIRC, cumulative victory points are awarded once a year at midsummer, with only 4 pts, even if someone had them all by the first midsummer and kept them it would take 150/4*12 = 450 turns to win.

[legolasjrt]

Pangea is Send

[chrispedersen]

I can't join in, but either I don't understand cumulative victory points or your condition doesn't work.
IIRC, cumulative victory points are awarded once a year at midsummer, with only 4 pts, even if someone had them all by the first midsummer and kept them it would take 150/4*12 = 450 turns to win.

Thanks for the heads up, thejeff. I will investigate and adjust the vp parameters as/if appropriate. Thanks.

[Cammorak]

Sent Niefel at -25

[TwoBits]

Are will still in the bidding process (I see chrispedersen has outbid Baalz for Yomi, and Baalz had yet to come back with a counter offer)?

Or do we need to start emailing in our pretenders soon (and it seems some have already started?)?

[pyg]

Are will still in the bidding process (I see chrispedersen has outbid Baalz for Yomi, and Baalz had yet to come back with a counter offer)?

Or do we need to start emailing in our pretenders soon (and it seems some have already started?)?

I'm waiting to hear that bidding is closed before working on a pretender.

[Verjigorm]

I had assumed bidding was closed when uploading began.

I have sent Arco @ -5.

[Willburn]

I am waiting for the bid to be officialy ended before I upload a pretender.

[Cammorak]

I guess I jumped the gun a little bit with the pretender. Still good practice to design under constraint though, I suppose.

[chrispedersen]

Hey guys..

I was really trying to wait to give Baalz a chance to bid some more. Now I feel kind of bad, as I wanted him in the game. However, I PM'd him and delayed the bidding with no response, so further delays are unwarranted.

So, yes, bidding is closed. According to Grudge we have 6 players submitting their pretenders already (and no one failed from their bid!).

Please read the opening post; map information and victory points information has been updated. Information as posted is a draft, awaiting comment.

I'd like to get pretenders in by Fri, EST.

[pyg]

While presumably having great balance, I find the map to be aesthetically challenging.

[Verjigorm]

While presumably having great balance, I find the map to be aesthetically challenging.

I wholeheartedly agree, with no offense to the author of the map whose intention was to create an obviously fair map. However, since a map is simply a collection of nodes in a tree, it would be possible to perturb said nodes in order to attain a happy medium whereby fairness could be assured while at the same time acquiring a greater semblance of natural beauty. I have been thinking of attempting such a thing, but have not yet had the time, patience, or inclination to do so.

On examining the map file itself, it's natural symmetry does not afford equality of start conditions as one might imagine. Starting points can still vary by great degree and certain points are better suited to production than others. Therefore, it is still quite reasonable to state that, upon starting, some nations will, by virtue of their position, be given an advantage thereby.

[chrispedersen]

Any position, by virtue of luck will be inherently unequal.
That said, if someone has a suggestion for maps, I'm all ears.

We're looking for 12 player map, relatively balanced. Suggestions?

[pyg]

Any position, by virtue of luck will be inherently unequal.
That said, if someone has a suggestion for maps, I'm all ears.

We're looking for 12 player map, relatively balanced. Suggestions?

Yeah, I hate to be negative without offering an alternative, but I did look a bit and couldn't find anything appropriate. Pasha's maps are usually well balanced but they are all too big (Greecestain is close). CoD is the right size m/l but not balanced at all. I'd be OK playing on a random map, and I'd be OK playing on Arena but it will take more intoxicants.

[Peacekeeper]

could try Riverlands (http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Riverlands), 9 more land provinces, less water and a little easier on the eyes.

[Willburn]

Why not the arena. Its ok for me.

[Willburn]

Or when I look the riverlands its also nice to look at. So its also ok for me :)

[Verjigorm]

I'll cast my vote for Riverlands. Quite a bit nicer to look at and I like the isolation afforded by the bridge network as opposed to what I envision happening by having 12 rival nations paired up and then funnelled, full-force into a small central area...

[chrispedersen]

I'll cast my vote for Riverlands. Quite a bit nicer to look at and I like the isolation afforded by the bridge network as opposed to what I envision happening by having 12 rival nations paired up and then funnelled, full-force into a small central area...

Ok. If there is no objections to riverlands, we'll go with that.
Two things to note: Map is supposedly wrap around; Starts will be inherently less equal. Still I'll try to take a look at the map file to adjust vp provinces and starts.

First Post updated

[Verjigorm]

I'll cast my vote for Riverlands. Quite a bit nicer to look at and I like the isolation afforded by the bridge network as opposed to what I envision happening by having 12 rival nations paired up and then funnelled, full-force into a small central area...

Ok. If there is no objections to riverlands, we'll go with that.
Two things to note: Map is supposedly wrap around; Starts will be inherently less equal. Still I'll try to take a look at the map file to adjust vp provinces and starts.

First Post updated

Well, the wrap-aroundness prevents people from having the advantage of receiving a lovely corner which I always prefer to being exposed on all sides. This way, everyone gets wide exposure. Differentials, of course, based on the positions of the bridges.

[Verjigorm]

In testing Riverlands, I also find a phantom province (#214), which is positioned precisely on top of #215 and has no neighbors.

and a phantom province, #230 which is positioned on top of #229 having only one neighbor, #232.

In the interests of speed, I will quickly catalog all provinces with fewer than 2 neighbors and then look at them later....

#neighbour 15 25
#neighbour 18 21
#neighbour 23 30
#neighbour 25 28
#neighbour 28 36
#neighbour 43 58
#neighbour 56 57
#neighbour 57 72
#neighbour 65 81
#neighbour 68 72
#76 has 0 neighbors
#neighbour 79 97
#neighbour 85 90
#neighbour 87 101
#neighbour 88 94
#neighbour 89 91
#neighbour 94 105
#neighbour 109 119
#neighbour 117 133
#neighbour 138 150
#neighbour 142 144
#neighbour 144 150
#neighbour 150 152
#neighbour 151 163
#neighbour 163 178
#neighbour 173 188
#181 has 0 neighbors
#neighbour 183 191
#neighbour 184 192
#neighbour 194 208
#neighbour 200 205
#neighbour 201 217
#neighbour 202 206
#neighbour 207 210
#neighbour 209 212
#neighbour 212 220
#neighbour 214 228
#223 has 0 neighbors
#neighbour 230 232
#neighbour 232 237
#237 has 0 neighbors
#neighbour 238 246
#neighbour 239 242
#240 has 0 neighbors
#neighbour 242 243
#243 has 0 neighbors
#neighbour 244 245
#neighbour 245 247
#neighbour 246 247

This map, on examining it in more detail, has some significant errors in at least the number of provinces having no neighbors and possibilities of provinces which sit on top of other provinces visually. On the surface, it looks nice, but it appears to need a little more playtesting... Perhaps a different map unless someone is planning to repair this one?

[Calahan]

@ Verjigorm - That's some great map trouble-shooting you've done. Riverlands creator, elmokki, always welcomes any feedback on his maps, and I'm sure he'd love to know about those errors you've found on the forum thread for this particular map.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=43606

[legolasjrt]

I re-send my pretenders

[chrispedersen]

Phantom provinces have occasional uses for AIs.
As I have to update for starting locations (hmm I know there is a script that does that...).. I don't mind fixing the map errors if people prefer the riverlands map.


And thanks for that awesome bit of work Ver. Obviously you will be a prepared opponent!

[legolasjrt]

you check me pretenders?

[Cammorak]

Wow, great detective work, ver. I'll vote Riverlands too. Tried to check out Arena but it was really kind of distracting. Part of me says, "Graphics don't matter, you fool," but another part of me says the opposite.

So long as Riverlands isn't bugged in some way, I think it'd be good.

[Grounds]

I was very poor at reading instructions. Pretender submitted.

[Willburn]

Pretender submitted.

[chrispedersen]

grudge: Can you post a list of all the people you've received pretenders from?

I know you haven't checked em yet....

[Peacekeeper]

did you get my PM with my email address chris? sent it a couple days ago and the first post hasnt been updated with it.

[legolasjrt]

you have received my mp?

[chrispedersen]

Your email has been received legolas. I've just fixed the map errors, and I'm waiting on word from grudge on the pretenders.
(First post updated)

[chrispedersen]

Absent a catastrophe, I'm done creating the map. What a pain!
Due to lack of time to spend more time on this, the center crown was created (7 vps). No special sites were assigned.

The potention starting sites are:
14
31
38
54
68
94
95
151

122
149
97
176

188
206
190
214
207

236
237

Let me know if you see a problem. The general criteria were: Could not be closer than 3 to anyone else. Only had 4-5 neighbors. Could not be closer than 3 to the starting vp provinces.

I did *not* adjust to make sure everyone was the same distance from the starting locations, I did not adjust for starting terrains.

The coastal requirements for some nations were a pain with these requirements. 3 Provinces were put in to allow coastal starts.

[pyg]

Hmmm, all the VP are in the water or across the water. Additionally it seems that having them all together will make them closer to a few nations and far away from most. I'm still fine playing on the map as it is currently because I'm playing a fun nation to have fun, but this seems less fair to me than victory by concession or evenly distributed VPs with the majority on land.

[Verjigorm]

Nagot gick fel!

Cannot find a valid starting province.

All of the provinces (including the ones indicated in your post) on the map file that has been uploaded in the OP are marked No Start.

[chrispedersen]

!!!!??? I started 5-6 games with full users.
Did you look at crown?

Now, there is one potential issue: Vanheim (iirc) needs a coastal location. As I recall I put in three of them. However, if all the coastal locations are taken (by other races) you will get a Nagock error.

I wonder if putting Vanheim in as the first nation helps...

[chrispedersen]

Hmmm, all the VP are in the water or across the water. Additionally it seems that having them all together will make them closer to a few nations and far away from most. I'm still fine playing on the map as it is currently because I'm playing a fun nation to have fun, but this seems less fair to me than victory by concession or evenly distributed VPs with the majority on land.

You are exactly correct pyg. I'd have the same problem. I spent more than 8 hours correcting neighbor provinces, and figuring out potential starting points.

So I think its OK for a starting game - but I really would like the feedback if other people can improve the starting locations.

Finding 13 start locations all with fair neighbor count and all equidistant from the center is, on this map, impossible I think. It might be better to let further nations have more neighbors, or a pop bonus etc.

[Peacekeeper]

why not move the 5 victory points out of the water provinces to land ones that surround the middle lake? like 127, 74, 60, 88 and 132.

[Verjigorm]

NVM my above post, I think it was a water start.

[chrispedersen]

why not move the 5 victory points out of the water provinces to land ones that surround the middle lake? like 127, 74, 60, 88 and 132.

First, because it makes the nostart area even bigger.

Second, as we are all land nations, and water is widely held to be weak, this will boost the utilty of the water school (and be a challenge).

[Cammorak]

I may be doing something wrong, but I've tried loading 5 games with 13 players and 2 games with 12 players, all of which Nagocked.

[Pablomatic]

Pretender submitted.

[pyg]

I may be doing something wrong, but I've tried loading 5 games with 13 players and 2 games with 12 players, all of which Nagocked.

Don't use random AIs. You have to individually select land nations because there aren't enough/any water starts. Best for testing to select the nations that are playing. If it crashes in tests then, that's interesting.

[GrudgeBringer]

We have as of Friday night 4/9/10 10 Pretenders submitted

[Cammorak]

Of course, that was silly of me. Works fine now.

[chrispedersen]

Hop, alpine joe, grounds.. can I get email addresses for you?

[Hoplosternum]

I sent my Pretender and email address to the Noobheim address a few hours ago. Was that wrong?

Let me know where it has to go to and I'll resend if needed.

[Peacekeeper]

I sent my Pretender and email address to the Noobheim address a few hours ago. Was that wrong?

Let me know where it has to go to and I'll resend if needed.

i think you send your pretender to Noobheim and PM Chris your email.

[chrispedersen]

thats right.
as of last night.. we have pretneders from
Paul Edwards

2.Alexander Pens (3 of them) Pangea

3.Samual Hannelman

4.Elijah John Martins (lanka)

5. Chris File

6. Andrew Teller

7. Chad Knapp

8.Zack Bohanian

9. David Little

10.Mike Lowery

That means were' missing two...
I'm going to give it a 24 more hours.. and then tell grudge not to wait any longer..

[Willburn]

Strange I sent my pretender a long time ago. Sent again now to noobheim.

[GrudgeBringer]

Gentlemen,

I have these Nations in and checked so PLEASE do NOT redesign a pretender unless you check with me first.

Abysia...you will need to re-submit your pretender in EA, you currently have it submitted in MA.

Pangea, I am going to go by your last submission, agian please do not submit another one.

Here is who I have checked and Congratulations, not one of you has to redo it.

Arco
Ermor
Gath/Hinnom
Helheim
Kalisia
Lanka
Marverni
Niefl
TC
Tir

I had Trouble loading Pangea to check, will get that done tonight.

chrispederson will have his submitted to me as soon as the map is finished. I will also check it and add it to the list.

GrudgeBringer:up:

[legolasjrt]

Well. you call me for any problem.

[GrudgeBringer]

Checked Pangea file and it is Good to GO.

chrispederson will be sending me his pretender tonight as he is about to finish up the map.

After that is checked I will upload all the pretenders and you will be off and running.

Abysia, please PM me so we can get you squared away or talk to chris if you prefer.

[chrispedersen]

Ok..

I found two more dead provinces, and one more missing neighbor.
Regardless, this is the version of the map we are going with.

I've modified the first post, make sure you get the new map.

Game is created. We are waiting on grudge upload.

[chrispedersen]

Crap.

When I deleted the 3 phantom provinces, it renumbered all the provinces. Which means my carefully checked starting locations no longer work.

ARGH.

[DrPraetorious]

Oops! Resent pretender.

[Verjigorm]

The map is no longer attached to the OP. Is it still a work in progress?

[GrudgeBringer]

Providing Chris and I can get together by this afternoon, game should be a go by this evening.:)

[Pablomatic]

1. Should we go get some new "crown" map? I downloaded the one that was posted in this thread before, but seems like there have been some changes since then and no new map has been attached to this thread that I can see.

2. I just want to play, so no biggie, but having all the VP sites right there in the center will make for a very imbalanced situation (or not, maybe I'm showing my inexperience in MP here).

3. I assume open diplomacy, indys set to "5," standard research, etc.

[pyg]

Don't worry too much about the .map. All you really have to have is the .tga and so long as llamaserver has the official/final/correct .map everything is good. If you downloaded it once you are fine.

[Pablomatic]

Don't worry too much about the .map. All you really have to have is the .tga and so long as llamaserver has the official/final/correct .map everything is good. If you downloaded it once you are fine.

Map link to new version of Crown (crown2) is broken on llamaserver fyi.

Thanks PYG, I won't worry about it then.

[chrispedersen]

A couple of our members made a couple of mistakes on the pretenders, which grudge has worked with them and gotten them straightened out. Map issues haven't helped either.

All we are waiting for is for me to fix the map link (huh) and update the email addresses, on llamaserver, and we should be good to go for starting tonight.

[legolasjrt]

Send my turn to legolas_jrt@hotmail.com plz

[DrPraetorious]

I just got an e-mail saying that I'm Abysia (yeah!), and a second saying that I'm Niefelheim (boo!)...?

[chrispedersen]

Right, I goofed on yours, and fixed it.
I'm crossing fingers we got them all right.. a lot of y'all didn't send tell me your nation when you sent me your email address.

All the email addies should be changed to your email address.
If you get a turn that isn't yours ( you know, yomi if you are pangea) don't open it, and let me know. I'll stick around for a bit now in case anyone is up, else I'll check in the morning.

Also, let me know if you didn't get a turn - means I entered your email addy wrong.

Sorry, thanks for you patience, and good luck!

[Cammorak]

llamaserver says it's still using crown2 as a map. Not sure if this is a naming issue or not, but there's a crown4 on the llama list.

[Peacekeeper]

got my address right. Good luck guys.

[chrispedersen]

llamaserver says it's still using crown2 as a map. Not sure if this is a naming issue or not, but there's a crown4 on the llama list.

Hmm.. you might need to refresh your cache. It says its using crown 4 on mine.....

[Cammorak]

Yeah, I just tried that and it worked.

Good luck all!

[pyg]

If it crashes out with a Ngot gick fel! Can't find map image: crown4.tga, you need to rename/link your maps/crown.tga maps/crown4.tga.

[Peacekeeper]

If it crashes out with a Ngot gick fel! Can't find map image: crown4.tga, you need to rename/link your maps/crown.tga maps/crown4.tga.

i downloaded the latest map update on the first post and everything worked fine.

[chrispedersen]

If it crashes out with a Ngot gick fel! Can't find map image: crown4.tga, you need to rename/link your maps/crown.tga maps/crown4.tga.

Right, renaming will not work pyg. Ya have to download from the first post. Also the link on the llamaserver has been corrected to point to that post as well.

[pyg]

Yes, I was mistaken, the .tga is different. I did however complete my first turn fine using the old .tga.

[chrispedersen]

Well except for 3 pixels, the two tga's are exactly the same.

Still, can you resubmit using only the right components? I'd hate to have a corrupted move due to changed neighbors, or altered resources for same reason.

[Pablomatic]

FYI I originally loaded riverlands, then crown 1, then crown 2 without deleting crown 1. When I tried to load this Countdown game the game crashed every time I tried to start turn 1.

I then deleted the old crown maps and loaded the latest (crown 4). Game works fine.

I'm on a Mac, but at least on my rig I needed the latest map.

[Pablomatic]

I do have an emergency question though. How do I communicate with other players when I run into them? Is each message sent with my turn orders?

[Peacekeeper]

I do have an emergency question though. How do I communicate with other players when I run into them? Is each message sent with my turn orders?

that is quite an emergency for a turn 1....

[chrispedersen]

This was not specified as a no diplomacy game.

So you can either send messages here, via pm, or you can use the in game messaging.

[chrispedersen]

Arco, and pan... is everything ok?

[Verjigorm]

What do you mean is everything ok? Did I do something incorrectly?

I submitted my .2h file over 8 hours ago to the Noobheim address....

I have now replied to the "turns@llamaserver.net" e-mail with the same turn file, though I doubt that it is possible for an automated process to know which game said turn file would go with........

If there is another less obvious procedure, you must carefully provide instructions for doing it it the OP. You can't just assume everyone has knowledge of arcane processes. ;)

Apparently it does respond to replies...

There are no instructions that I could find either in the emails or on the llamaserver site for doing this, and this, being my first MP game, I wouldn't really know that by default especially since it had been declared that a particular e-mail address was to be used in the OP.

[Peacekeeper]

I have now replied to the "turns@llamaserver.net" e-mail with the same turn file, though I doubt that it is possible for an automated process to know which game said turn file would go with........

If there is another less obvious procedure, you must carefully provide instructions for doing it it the OP. You can't just assume everyone has knowledge of arcane processes. ;)

it is the @llamaserver email you need to send it to, the 2h file that is.

(llama faq (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=35160))

[chrispedersen]

thanks peacekeeper. And no problems ver, I was just asking to make sure you did understand how to submit turns, etc. Seems like all is OK.

[Grounds]

Since the game server we are using doesn't seem to need any information in the e-mail in order to parse out which file goes to which game, I assume the relevant information can be found within the 2h file itself.

[elmokki]

Oh, you guys fixed Riverlands for this game? I would've probably actually bothered to do it myself if I had known there was this good use for it. Kudos to you, since I wasn't very motivated to do anything for it myself since I absolutely detest the borders around the wrap as they were made by the quickest and fastest ghetto style and look rather ugly in most cases, and fixing phantom provinces is a huge job especially in a huge map like this.

[chrispedersen]

Oh, you guys fixed Riverlands for this game? I would've probably actually bothered to do it myself if I had known there was this good use for it. Kudos to you, since I wasn't very motivated to do anything for it myself since I absolutely detest the borders around the wrap as they were made by the quickest and fastest ghetto style and look rather ugly in most cases, and fixing phantom provinces is a huge job especially in a huge map like this.

You're very welcome elmokki. I was going to wait and see if there were any further reports of problems, fix them, and then append it to your riverlands map thread.

It took me over 15 hours to fix everything.......Nothing compared to creating a map, I know ... I wish I had artistic skills...

[Verjigorm]

...I absolutely detest the borders around the wrap as they were made by the quickest and fastest ghetto style and look rather ugly in most cases,...

lol. That's something only the maker would notice. I certainly didn't notice. It's a very nice map and I think, the way it has been reconfigured, it will make for a very interesting MP map. The interconnected lakes makes for very interesting play by bringing essentially everyone "closer" to the central VP core. I think it's very nice work. Thank you for the map. ^_^

...and of course, thanks to chris for fixing it up.

[TwoBits]

Hey, chrispedersen, I tried to send you a PM, but got this message:

"chrispedersen has exceeded their stored private messages quota and cannot accept further messages until they clear some space."

Oh, and Lanka has staled already. That cant be a good thing...

[Verjigorm]

I just noticed that one of the VP provinces (the SW part of the central island) doesn't have a crown on it.

[Willburn]

So strange my profet attack a province alone even tough i order him to attack together with another army. I cant belive i misclicked that. Really strange... :(

[elmokki]

Oh, you guys fixed Riverlands for this game? I would've probably actually bothered to do it myself if I had known there was this good use for it. Kudos to you, since I wasn't very motivated to do anything for it myself since I absolutely detest the borders around the wrap as they were made by the quickest and fastest ghetto style and look rather ugly in most cases, and fixing phantom provinces is a huge job especially in a huge map like this.

You're very welcome elmokki. I was going to wait and see if there were any further reports of problems, fix them, and then append it to your riverlands map thread.

It took me over 15 hours to fix everything.......Nothing compared to creating a map, I know ... I wish I had artistic skills...

Huh, 15 hours? I don't think I spent more than 5 making the map, but that definately shows with the phantom provinces and lacking connections etc. Those are the most boring part and I've generally just tried to get them finished as quickly as possible. I've tried to be more careful with them lately, but then again a 200+ province wraparound isn't something I'm planning to do again anytime soon.

And no, it doesn't really require any artistic skill to draw some continents and borders and slap in graphics someone else has drawn.

[Peacekeeper]

hosting get delayed?

[chrispedersen]

Yes; I said I was going to do so around tax day as I knew I was going to be out of town.

[TwoBits]

Uh oh, that was 4 days ago! I hope the tax man won't come after you for being late ;)

[chrispedersen]

Back in town, mailbox cleared out thanks for the patience.

[chrispedersen]

someone plese nudge alpine joe? if he hasn't taken a turn near hosting I am going to delay it.

[rmcolosimo]

I can take over Lanka if you need a sub. :)

[Peacekeeper]

Hello everyone. I was wondering what everyones prefered method of contact was. For example, I often check these forums so I'll get a PM in a timely manner or you can contact me by email or gtalk as bishoplittle (__at__) gmail (__dot__) com as i tend to leave it on.

[Cammorak]

Why? Why must the turn file always appear during my commute!? Oh what cruel fate, taunted by it, always glaring, whispering in my ears. "Don't work. Plan. Strategize. You must. Work later. Leave early. Leeeaaaave..."

Just kidding. It doesn't actually whisper. Except on Wednesdays. ;)

[chrispedersen]

Lanka player has been replaced. Please get your turns in on time. Understand that if he needs extra time it will be delayed.

[Alpine Joe]

I apologize profusely for my Stales this game. If it is any excuse, I have been extremely ill for the past week, and while a friend agreed to cover a couple of my games while I was in hospital, I felt it was too much to ask him to cover them all with no Stales, and this game he must have felt was less important.

I will slowly be resuming my normal schedule for the next few days, but I understand the reasons for my being replaced, and I wish the sub best of luck with the position.

Good luck to all of you in this game, once again, I apologize.

[chrispedersen]

Hey Alpine

I'm sorry to hear that .. I wondered what happened as you were very good in Balance.

I hope you get better and wish you good fortune.

[Grounds]

Apparently I had private messaging turned off. People can now contact me via this means of communication. This way I'll have a reference as to why I'll be invaded from multiple sides in the future.

[Hoplosternum]

Logolasjrt (Pan) also has private messages turned off. Makes diplomacy more difficult :p

[legolasjrt]

i can resiving mp.

[legolasjrt]

legolasjrta(arroba)gmail.com send me message here

[Hoplosternum]

Hi Legolas

I have sent you an email.

On this forum you have private messages turned off. I do most of my diplomacy via this message board's private messages and I think a lot of other people do as well. But it is up to you :)

[Peacekeeper]

Anyone being attacked by Hinnom, please PM me.

[pyg]

Anyone being attacked by Hinnom, please PM me.

That crazy dude playing Hinnom has attacked at least three different nations so far. I'm getting the sense that he doesn't plan on being in the game long.

[Peacekeeper]

Anyone being attacked by Hinnom, please PM me.

That crazy dude playing Hinnom has attacked at least three different nations so far. I'm getting the sense that he doesn't plan on being in the game long.

ya, im guessing those nations are ermor and pangaea but im not sure about the second one.

[chrispedersen]

Anyone being attacked by Hinnom, please PM me.

That crazy dude playing Hinnom has attacked at least three different nations so far. I'm getting the sense that he doesn't plan on being in the game long.

LOL.. I noticed one of them *wasn't* mictlan = )

[Pablomatic]

I want to thank everyone involved in this game for allowing me to play. I am finding MP to be vastly more interesting than SP (no surprise there), and doubt I'll ever be interested in SP (except to experiment) again.

Everyone has been appropriately welcoming to me.

I have tried some other strategy games online, and sometimes other players cheat, make alliances with their buddies before the game starts, and otherwise ruin the experience for everyone. The joy of strategy games is to participate in a struggle, followed by victory or defeat, not to cheat so you can be a "winner."

Anyway, I haven't seen any of that bad behavior here, and I thank all of you for that.

[rmcolosimo]

Heya Pablomatic.. You gots the mail. :)

[Cammorak]

Looking upon Lord Galderan with dismay, Magnus said, "Sir, perhaps you should reconsider. This new heraldry of yours is hopelessly suggestive."

"Nonsense! These concentric rings represent our spheres of power. The white and red color is the blood of our enemies on our snowy fortress walls!"

"What's the dot in the center, sir?"

"That's me, of course! The ruler of mighty Niefelheim."

"That's what I was afraid of."

-Council minutes of Galderan, Oblivious Master, The Hopelessly Screwed, Lord of Not Much

[chrispedersen]

Hmmm.. You can put lipstick on a pig - that doesn't make it a date.

Or a socially acceptable date, anyway.

The giants are coming.. the giants are coming. No actually, they are already here. And no attempts to paint them as innocuous will actually render them so.

I've got 24 popsicles camped in my lands. I seem to have killed the shapeshifters.

So, the demons of yomi are looking to buy or trade for earth gems.

And we'd like the location of niefles capitol, please

[TwoBits]

Do we need to slow the game pace down? I don't want to (I'm enjoying the pace thus far), but I see from the first page that we were supposed to at 8 hours after turn 10 (and +8 at each 10 turns thereafter).

Right now, I'm concerned about Helheim (Hoplosternum) - they got in their last turn, but staled the turn before, and they're the last to get in their turn now. Maybe they need some more time?

[chrispedersen]

Scratches head. Good catch Two. Believe it or not I forgot I was the administrator of this game.

I will add 8 hours to the hosting interval. If any player asks for the 8 hour extension we will go to the 32 hour hosting.


I will additionally pm hop.

[pyg]

Hmmm.. You can put lipstick on a pig - that doesn't make it a date.

Or a socially acceptable date, anyway.


Come on chrispedersen, pucker up. I know you want it!

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/2619/lipspyg.jpg

[Peacekeeper]

Hmmm.. You can put lipstick on a pig - that doesn't make it a date.

Or a socially acceptable date, anyway.


Come on chrispedersen, pucker up. I know you want it!

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/2619/lipspyg.jpg

why arnt you dead yet!?!?!

[Cammorak]

The giants are coming.. the giants are coming. No actually, they are already here. And no attempts to paint them as innocuous will actually render them so.

I've got 24 popsicles camped in my lands. I seem to have killed the shapeshifters.


I see you subscribe to a rather loose definition of "mine."

Although, I will admit, fortune seems to favor the luck scales in these last two turns.

[chrispedersen]

Hey guys... Hellheim is in danger of staling for the second turn in three turns.

I'd like to either:

a). page hoplo and find out if he wants to continue.
b). Find someone to take the Hellheim. The position looks viable: Top quartile in virtually all measures.

Game is in the early phase.
c). If the game isn't viable find somoene to set AI.


So persuant to this I'm adding an additional 24 hours to the clock. I believe that a delay is preferable to a staled player.
As this wasn't covered in the original game setup, I'm updating the first post, and would like comments and feedback asto what you think should happen.

[Peacekeeper]

my vote goes to taking as long as we need to find a player

[pyg]

why arnt you dead yet!?!?!

Lipstick.

[Cammorak]

I agree on the extension and looking for someone to take over while we investigate hoplo's status. It's still early enough that going AI would suck.

[TwoBits]

Yeah, going AI should be the worst case option. Besides, I'm going out of town for two days tonight, and could probably use the extra time :)

[TwoBits]

Well, somebody did Helheim's turn. But I'm about to leave town for a day and a half. Could I get an extra 12 hours added?

Hm, I see we're still on the 24 hour hosting schedule. In that case, I'll likely need an extra 24 hours just to be safe. Sorry for the delay, everyone!

[chrispedersen]

24 h added to timer, per request.

[Cammorak]

I think next time someone's staling with an army at my doorstep, I should keep my mouth shut. :doh:

[chrispedersen]

Lolololol

[TwoBits]

OK, I'm back - thanks for the delay!

[chrispedersen]

I am suddenly without access to a computer. I've delayed the game 24 hours. I thank you for your patience.

I'm also asking debaser to cover my position in the short term.

[pyg]

I am suddenly without access to a computer. I've delayed the game 24 hours. I thank you for your patience.

I'm also asking debaser to cover my position in the short term.

That's what you get for ****ing me off! Next time I throw you out the window, not just your computer.

[chrispedersen]

lol

[Cammorak]

I'm amazed no one has used the excellent opportunity to use the word "defenestrate" literally yet.

[TwoBits]

I am suddenly without access to a computer. I've delayed the game 24 hours. I thank you for your patience.

I'm also asking debaser to cover my position in the short term.

First off, sorry to hear about your rig :(

Second, what will happen if our admin is down and out for a while? Can anyone, for instance, delay the timer on Llamaserver? Just wondering, in case there's a problem while Chris is down (hopefully, that situation wont last long!).

[chrispedersen]

during work hours, I'll continue to monitor the thread and requests for postponement.

I just don't have dominions at work..

[Cammorak]

That sounds like a terrible job. Then again, I don't either. Perhaps that explains the quitting.

[Hoplosternum]

Phew - got my turn in with 5 minutes to go :)

Anyone have any Earth gems? I have Death and Astral in exchange. Or Skull Mentors if you like that kind of thing :p

[Willburn]

I am not sure yet but I might need a delay during next turn. Appologize in advance if thats the case.

[chrispedersen]

sure, let me know during business hours EST.

[Debaser8]

I came in for Yomi as a temporary sub (10 turns), and now it looks like Yomi will need a longer term caretaker. I enjoy playing the demon ogres of love, but I can't keep up with the pace. I think I might have to start looking for a replacement soon.

[TwoBits]

Hm, sounds as if chrispedersen might be out for longer than though :(

On an administrative note, can anyone clarify the VP situation? How is that going to work?

[chrispedersen]

When you take a VP, it only counts if you report it.
Each turn that you report it - you earn 1 vp.

Game ends when someone has acquired the requisite number of victory points.

When you report it say something like:

Marverni - Turn 45, Province 431.

I will update the First post to keep a running vp total for every nation.

[TwoBits]

Intriguing! So you need 100 points total? For example, holding 2 locations for 50 turns (but only if you report)?

And there are six locations, correct? The north half of the central island, and the 5 surrounding sea provinces - are there any others?

And you say no fortifying the victory locations - OK, but what if you get a castle via a spell or luck event?

Yeah, I guess I wasn't paying attention (or have forgotten :D ) to earlier discussions of VP conditions, but it's getting to the point where it might start to matter, I think.

[Verjigorm]

Casting a spell to fortify a province would count as fortifying it. Having a random event castle form, I would say, would require that you demolish said fortification the turn it appears or as soon as humanly possible.

[pyg]

Casting a spell to fortify a province would count as fortifying it. Having a random event castle form, I would say, would require that you demolish said fortification the turn it appears or as soon as humanly possible.

Speciest!

[TwoBits]

I guess I should have been more clear, what I wanted to say was a fortress from a site searching spell (especially, the common undersea fortress you can get casting Hauruspex).

Is the consensus that they be demolished then?

[Debaser8]

Trading for boots of youth Items/Gems.

Yomi

[chrispedersen]

VP totals from a site will not count if a castle has been found on the site.

After 6 turns, a castle on a VP site will *cost* you 1 vp.

[Verjigorm]

I claimed a VP at the beginning of this turn (31).

I would also like to point out that the current game settings indicate that a win (as far as the software is concerned) occurs when 7 VPs are accumulated. The score graph supports this as the ceiling is not far off, so... if we're supposed to be accumulating 100, but the game is going to go "Game Over!" when we hit 7... is there a way to fix this or am I incorrect wrt how the VPs work?

[DrPraetorious]

That looks like total VP rather than accumulation to me; otherwise you and Arco would've gained at the same time.

If it's set for total VP, why don't we just integrate under the score graphs (assuming no forts), rather than having people self-report which is weird?

[Peacekeeper]

7 vps that are all adjacent to each other is going to make a poor winning condition. Might as well just say that 1 of those VP provinces has to remain independant and play it as a normal game.

[DrPraetorious]

Especially since we're not allowed to fortify any of them - it's rather easy for a well positioned-player to just grab all seven and force the builtin win. Is this not allowed?

Personally, I would've spread the VP out somewhat more and used the built-in VP accumulation system; I don't know why people don't like it.

[Verjigorm]

While, all of those are interesting points, we're on turn 31. Since it's set to only go to "Win" condition when someone acquires all 7 provinces means that if we want to maintain the 100 accumulated VP idea, we do, in fact, need to ensure that no one can control all 7 provinces as doing so would break the game.

This is what I would recommend.

No one can control all 7 VP provinces since doing so will ruin our fun.

An "acquire all 7" victory condition would be better, I agree, were they spread out.

[chrispedersen]

I claimed a VP at the beginning of this turn (31).



You have to also provide the province number:

Turn 31: Abysia, province ???

[Verjigorm]

I claimed a VP at the beginning of this turn (31).



You have to also provide the province number:

Turn 31: Abysia, province ???

I'm Arcoscephale and in general I prefer not to reveal the province number since it is useless for scoring purposes but useful as spying data. You can see on the score graphs that I have 1. ;) If someone who can see me wants to reveal the province number that's up to them, but if it were me, I would charge for the intel. :P

[TwoBits]

I'm only seeing six victory locations on the map - 5 in the water, and one, on the north half of the central island.

[Cammorak]

Well, looks like I sent my .2h file while the new turn was en route. Stale for me.:doh:

Regardless, it looks like all I have left is to wait and die at my capitol. Good game, Yomi. Come kill me. Or Helheim, since your army's been camped outside my capitol for at least 10 turns. My only hope is that you two fight over my corpse.

[Verjigorm]

Claiming 2 VPs for turn 32.

Current total: 3.

And yes, there are only 6 crowns. The southwestern portion of the island does not appear to be a VP province.

[chrispedersen]

Veri: the administrator (thats me) will provide a bonafide VP count. And will update it the opening thread.

But the requirement to post the province # was not optional - its specifically to allow people to gate to a place they may not have a scout in.

So, I'll give you your VP - (this once) but you really do need to report the province numbers. No tickee, no washee.

Also note as listed in post 78 or so, their are only 6 VP locations... one on the isle and 5 in water. And as stated in post 78 or so this is to provide a challenge and make water more required.

[chrispedersen]

Cammorak

Thanks for playing. You were a great sport and a worthy opponent.

What did you think of the bid mechanism.. did the 25 points make a difference to you?

You going d3 really hurt yomi...

[Verjigorm]

Also note as listed in post 78 or so, their are only 6 VP locations... one on the isle and 5 in water. And as stated in post 78 or so this is to provide a challenge and make water more required.

Very well, the provinces are:

105 & 101

The former (105), held last turn and this turn (2 points), the latter (101) held this turn (1 point).

Also, I missed a turn of phrase, perhaps it's regional thing, but what does "no tickee, no washee" mean?

Oh, and for the record, I wasn't trying to be deliberately contrary. Spy information is one of the most valuable commodities in games like this, so I prefer to keep secret those things which I consider valuable information. As I had saw no reason to reveal the province numbers (as the current number of vps can be identified on the score graphs) other than to provide people without said information with a means by which to locate and attack/observe and since said requirement was not stated anywhere in the original contract and only in your more recent post, I decided that discretion would be more appropriate. However, since you have stated that the deliberate intention of the province number revelation is to encourage attacks and not for any other reason, I shall have to accept that since I apparently have no ability to control it.

I will, however, state that I politely disagree with this necessity as I always prefer conditions which favor secrecy. I feel it adds a lovely note of risk to the whole thing when you randomly pop in to a province, not knowing what is there or have to send a spy to observe goings on in a far-away land... Revelation is less interesting.

[Hoplosternum]

I will, however, state that I politely disagree with this necessity as I always prefer conditions which favor secrecy. I feel it adds a lovely note of risk to the whole thing when you randomly pop in to a province, not knowing what is there or have to send a spy to observe goings on in a far-away land... Revelation is less interesting.

I think in this game though it is fair that who owns the vp sites need to be declared openly.

The vp locations are all in one area and we do not all have equal access to them early. It is possible on this map to have become large and powerful but still have no direct access to the vp sites nor the power that is taking them.

No one seems to have gone for the vp sites early on, though that seemed a viable option. By now it would have been possible for a power to have built up a big VP score and we have not yet entered the late game (I hope :)) so many powers don't have easy access to cloud trapeze/teleporting Thugs and SCs at this point.

In short the victory conditions highly favour those who started close by them. Keeping who holds them secret just increases that advantage in this case.

[chrispedersen]

yeah, in retrospect, I really do wish that I had stuck with arena. The object really was everyone fighting over equidistant and centrally located vp.

When I acceded to the change in maps, the implications for game play didn't hit me.

I was also surprised that *noone* made an early play for vp.
Would have been perfect for caelum.

As for 'no tickee no washee' I'm told that it comes from early on when you sent your wash to a washer - you were issued a ticket. To get your clothes back - you had to present your ticket. No tickee.. no washee.

And usually I agree with you Ver, about the importance of secret information. Its just not the format of this game. Sorry!

[TwoBits]

Well, as a power right by the water, I thought about making an early play for the VPs, but Marverni isn't exactly an early game powerhouse - I figured launching a land grab that early would just get me clobbered.

I figure anyone who wants to collect 100 VPs will eventually have to lick everyone anyone anyway (almost like a 'normal' game), the only difference being that he'll have the option of forcing everyone else' hand, instead of just waiting for it.

Oh, and I see someone has added extra time for me - thanks! - but I should have my turn in shortly anyway.

BTW, how long are we going to stick to a 24 hour schedule?

[Cammorak]

I considered going for early VPs with my natural water access, but I figured I would already be an early-game target and didn't need to draw any more attention to myself.

Honestly, I was trying out a Baalz-style strategy, which I think makes the loss of 25 points a bit of a nonissue. The downside was my forces weren't consolidated when you came knocking so they pretty much got steamrolled piecemeal.

As I was considering it though, I think the handicaps actually might need to be a bit harder. I was testing out bless builds and a loss of 25 points is rather small change. Sure, you may have slightly worse scales or lose a bit of your bless, but it doesn't strike me as really even by any means.

I think it's a great idea, but maybe if the handicaps are somehow normalized to, say, the cost of increasing dom scales a point, rather than arbitrary values. I think one of the issues was the relative lack of bidding wars. The community seems small enough to where this may never happen extensively, so it may be better to high-ball the opening bids.

[Verjigorm]

The only reason I didn't take VPs early was for diplomacy reasons (same as Marverni). It's sort of like painting a giant target over your ball sack (you know, where you keep your soccer balls), but when Marverni took one, I decided I might as well start grabbing them or risk falling behind.

I'm taking 3 this turn, btw: 126, 101, 81.

That should be 6 VP total (1 + 2 + 3).

[chrispedersen]

debaser was having problems with the 24 hour timer, so I added 8 hours. Theoretically we should be at 40.

[chrispedersen]

Interesting that Marverni hasn't claimed any vps...

Cammorak.. I really wish we got more bids. But as we haven't I will definitely keep your feedback in mind on the next one.

Still, I do think the bids definitely changed the game: We have no mictlan, or sauromatia in the game, for example. Conversely, we do have yomi, arco, abysia, marverni - which I think is proof of concept.

Personally I think thats a huge plus.

[Cammorak]

I definitely agree that the bidding is a huge plus and an important component of the concept. What I was trying to say is that the bidding should be kept, but the starting bids should perhaps be spread out a little more. I love that it encourages all the lesser-played races as I'm always a fan of the underdog (despite playing Niefel this time).

I also think this could branch into two different concepts:
1) A bidding mechanic that keeps the games organic and relatively fresh
and
2) A set handicap mechanic that can be kind of an extension of the Endgame Diversity & CBM concept to further encourage lesser-used race play.

This is also inspiration for a Gimp game I may want to start once I'm done moving this month. All the races on the bottom of the HoF duking it out. Probably already been done, but still seems fun.

[Verjigorm]

I have another interesting question.....

Since we are manually tracking VPs rather than allowing the game to track them...

Could VPs be used as a commodity for trade? The mechanism, of course, would require said transactions to occur within the Forum chat so that they could be properly administered.

[chrispedersen]

Nope, no trading vp's.
However you can feel free to make any deals you want regarding possession of vp provinces.

Ver, I hate to sound like I'm raining on your parade - you've been a great player.
Please only report provinces when you've actually taken them.. I don't want any surprises complicating my posting. That said did you take your 3 vp this turn?

[Verjigorm]

Yes, still at 3 vps. Total should be 9 cumulative victory points as of the start of turn 34.

Turn 34 = + 3 vps (9)
Turn 33 = + 3 vps (6)
Turn 32 = + 2 vps (3)
Turn 31 = + 1 vp (1)

[Debaser8]

I definitely want a longer clock, but I came in as a temporary sub so I didn't want to ask for one. However seeing that TwoBits also seems to be interested in a longer clock, and I haven't been able to find another sub for myself, how do people feel about a longer clock? I would prefer a 48 hour clock, but am happy to hear from people who like the status quo (32hrs?).

[Verjigorm]

I don't care.

[Hoplosternum]

Yes a longer clock would be good.

[Willburn]

All my units and provinces are gone now. Thanks for the game. What should I do so that the turns go on without me having to send confirmation (no point now as i have 0 units)

[Hoplosternum]

Hi Wilburn. Thanks for the game and hope to see you in some more.

When you are eliminated it is best to still send in your turn as normal the turn you have been eliminated. The game may still wait for you if you don't, but I am not sure of this.

I send in my 'turn after death' when I get eliminated. But you won't get another turn after that. So you are spared sending in empty turns.

[chrispedersen]

wilburn, do you have any comments about the auction method?
Hope you enjoyed the game!

+8 hr added to clock by request.

[Verjigorm]

Sorry about the late turn submission, I would have made it in by the original end time. I had to do my turn twice b/c I overwrote my .2h file. -.-

Oh well, 2nd draft is always better than the 1st I suppose. :P

[Willburn]

wilburn, do you have any comments about the auction method?
Hope you enjoyed the game!

+8 hr added to clock by request.

Auction method seems a fine way to get the less than often used nations a chance as they will be balanced out from a weaker starting position by having more points for a pretender. Granted this is in a given enviroment where the auction mention works as it is supposed to.

[Hoplosternum]

The only problem with the auction was that there was not much of one. For most it was just the handicapping system CP decided at the beginning. There were so many powers left in the rare cases someone was outbid they did not bid again but could choose another power.

If a game was set up with few positions with those powers fixed. Say 6 or 8 then you may get more bidding/over bidding happening. But that assumes people want to play that game as opposed to quiting the bidding to play in another if the power they want gets too costly. And plenty of us simply pick the power we want to play that time rather than try and powergame with the most powerful nation we can construct.

I think this would be a very good method in a game where you know / suspect it will be over subscribed. For example if we had another mega game. It would let people get the powers they want and give some indication of how people really rate some of the powers. That didn't happen here. Good game though :) with a complete range of players from first time newbies to the most experienced.

[Verjigorm]

The only problem with the auction was that there was not much of one. For most it was just the handicapping system CP decided at the beginning. There were so many powers left in the rare cases someone was outbid they did not bid again but could choose another power.

I agree that there was no bidding because there was too much choice. Setting up fixed nation "slots", say Hinnom, Arco, Yomi, TC, Marverni, Helheim and then making people bid on each of the available slots would cause bidding, but I don't think that bidding in and of itself is the goal.

The goal, I believe, was to handicap certain nations as they have a greater probability of winning than others. Thus the idea wouldn't necessarily be to "bid" for the nations, but simply to handicap players who chose them by reducing their design points. One of the weird consequences of this game is that nations that prefer Cold/Heat get free bonus points. Of course, one would assume that such a condition would be designed to offset some inherent flaw in the race, but this does not appear to be the case. It appears, instead, to be thematic in nature. Therefore, I would propose a modification to the current handicapping system:

In addition to or in lieu of the handicaps determined by the win rate for the nation, that a number of handicap points be added to nations which require heat or cold of equal measure to the number gained by the optimal scale.

Therefore, in the addition scheme, you would take Hinnom's -25 and subtract an additional 80 points to account for free points gained from the heat scales making them, -105. Obviously a -105 penalty may no longer be appropriate as a hindrance, thus, starting with a simple -80 penalty based just on scales would probably be a better starting point. Only nations, then, that need a handicap, notwithstanding heat/cold bonus points would have any other particular handicap.

Of course, this allows for unusual circumstances like choosing Abysia with Cold+3. In this case, they should naturally get +200 points for this selection, but there is no way to account for that, so the idea here would hinge upon the nation selecting scales at variance from the already tipped scale and then determining the handicap based on that and setting a cap at the original amount of the heat/cold penalty if you follow me... I'll do an example to show what I mean:

Hinnom Prefers +2 Heat, so we'll determine Hinnom's penalty based on Heat +2 as the default scale position:

Hinnom +3 Heat: -40 Penalty
Hinnom +2 Heat: -80 Penalty
Hinnom +1 Heat: -40 Penalty
Hinnom +0 Heat: 0 Penalty
Hinnom +1 to +3 Cold: 0 Penalty

This would make adjudicating pretender design a little more intensive, but not terribly difficult.

[chrispedersen]

I think this would be a very good method in a game where you know / suspect it will be over subscribed. For example if we had another mega game. It would let people get the powers they want and give some indication of how people really rate some of the powers. That didn't happen here. Good game though :) with a complete range of players from first time newbies to the most experienced.

Yeah; with the split in the community, sadly I'm not sure we'll see another one of those.

[TwoBits]

VP totals from a site will not count if a castle has been found on the site.

After 6 turns, a castle on a VP site will *cost* you 1 vp.

OK, from a magic site, I've got a castle on a VP site now. But I'm not declaring vp for it (I haven't declared vp for any VP site I've held to this point).

So, is it OK to keep this fortress as long as I don't try to claim vp from that VP site (the strategic value is debatable, but I guess it does give me some small economic boost)?

If I keep it for more than 6 turns, can my vp start to go negative?

In the regard of utility, the 5 water VP provinces obviously have less use than the one land VP ("yeah, I can build all the Tritons I want" vs "I can build national mages and troops").

Don't know where I'm going with that, just something to keep in mind. In the end, I think this game will still come down to a contest of brute strength, but the vp variable may likely add an interesting twist toward the end.

[Verjigorm]

I would say that in my opinion, the restriction of "No fortifying Victory Points" is unconditional, which means you should have to destroy the castle. That's my opinion. The idea that you could fortify a victory point makes it more difficult for others to acquire it, and such is the basic purpose of the restriction, so it should not matter whether or not you are receiving VPs for the point.

The restriction is simple and clear. Unconditionally, no fortifying victory point provinces. Thus the fortress should be destroyed, unconditionally and no payment even of VPs should prevent said destruction.

That's just my opinion.

[chrispedersen]

The rules are that forts must be destroyed.
And yes, your vps will go negative if you do not.

[Verjigorm]

I would like to point out that the VP's haven't been updated for several turns and should look like this:

Turn 31.....Ver..... (1)
Turn 32.....Ver..Ver (3)
Turn 33.....Ver..Ver..Ver (6)
Turn 34.....Ver..Ver..Ver (9)
Turn 35.....Ver..Ver..Ver (12)
Turn 36.....Ver..Ver..Ver (15)
Turn 37.....Ver..Ver..Ver (18)
Turn 38.....Ver..Ver..Ver (21)
Turn 39.....Ver..Ver..Ver (24)
Turn 40.....Ver..Ver..Ver (27)

[chrispedersen]

I should like to point out that I indicated more than several times now that vp's have to be reported EVERY TURN, and I've said this several times.

Ver, I'm not a player I have no way to view the map. Additionally, the self reporting is so that EVERYONE has the ability to know where they are in the game, and how close to winning everyone is.

So, if no one objects, I will update the VP's as you suggest. However, this will be the last time. vps have to be claimed everyturn.

Also, twobits, by my reading of things, six turns will be over on turn 44. Two, or anyone, let me know if its otherwise.

[Verjigorm]

I must have misunderstood this instruction:


Please only report provinces when you've actually taken them.. I don't want any surprises complicating my posting. That said did you take your 3 vp this turn?


I took it to mean that you only wanted me to report the capture of a VP province, not that I should post an update to which I control every turn. For the remainder of the game, then, I shall post the number of VPs I control every turn which should create a good deal of thread clutter, which is what I had thought you were trying to avoid via this instruction.

Therefore, as the error was based on a misunderstanding of your prior instruction, there should be no reason that I should not get my VPs.

You have not said you need to report VPs every turn multiple times to my knowledge. I only found one such post in the thread and it occurred before the instruction to report only when captured. Thus, your instructions are confusing, and not my fault.

[Verjigorm]

Claiming 3 VPs again:

81 101 105 [[+3 VP Turn 41]]

Total: 30 points

...and as for the dispute regarding my VPs, since this is a friendly game, there's no reason we can't count it both ways, and for that matter, the game could be converted into an FFA after the requisite points are achieved, anyway, since there's no software win condition other than capture all VP points/FFA.

I vehemently maintain my position that my VPs should number 30 on turn 41.

[Hoplosternum]

I don't think anyone is disputing that Verjigorm. CP said that if there were no objections he had no problem with it. And i don't for the record.

But the rules have been stated and you (and Maverni) have to declare which vps you are claiming each turn. At least from now on. TwoBits should also start posting his vps if he wants them.

CP is in charge of the game and while we can all have a view on whether this form of victory is good or bad it is what it is for this game. The much of the purpose appears to be to stop anyone sneaking up on victory. It is going to be obvious and as/if you approach victory you can expect the rest of us will know and to react if we can. Is this a good mechanic? Well that's a different discussion as it IS the mechanic for this game :)

And if nothing else it will keep the thread on the first page :p

[Verjigorm]

Claiming 3 VPs again:

81 101 105 [[+3 VP Turn 42]]

Total: 33 points

[Verjigorm]

Claiming 3 VPs again:

81 101 105 [[+3 VP Turn 43]]

Total: 36 points

[Verjigorm]

Claiming 3 VPs again:

81 101 105 [[+3 VP Turn 44]]

Total: 39 points
__________________

[chrispedersen]

First post updated.
Two, did you destroy the fort as required?

Hows the game going for everyone? Seems like Ver is really rocking....
Any comments from Tien, Pan, or lanka?

[TwoBits]

The fort is gone. Marverni is choosing not to declare its VPs.

[chrispedersen]

Fair enough. First post updated.

[Pablomatic]

First post updated.
Two, did you destroy the fort as required?

Hows the game going for everyone? Seems like Ver is really rocking....
Any comments from Tien, Pan, or lanka?

The Tuatha would like to comment that the combination of strands of arcane power and the lightning global that Arco has cast have so far proven to be his greatest weapon. These are likely to cause each of you problems in turn, whether you fight him or no.

We wish all other nations to know that it may take longer to deprive Arco of his victory point locations than you realize. We urge you to join in bloody war immediately against the Philosopher Kings, each on his own front.

May your hearts be warm,

Tir General Staff

[Verjigorm]

Claiming 3 VPs again:

81 101 105 [[+3 VP Turn 45]]

Total: 42 points

[Verjigorm]

Additionally, one should recognize that the spear point of Tir na Nog is quite sharp, but all of the units that comprise it are made in the capitol, so the shaft of the spear is frequently much softer.

This means that since the spear point is located far from his capitol, he is currently weak and vulnerable to attack by neighbors on his other borders. If you think there's no way I can withstand the onslaught, and you know that he cannot abandon his mission to destroy me, then you know this:

1) If he takes over my lands, he will probably win the game for himself as he will be 3-4 capitols strong and holding strong positions both in and near the water.

2) Since he can't abandon his mission to defend himself, you can easily acquire provinces on his other borders.

His capitol is the sunny province of #14 in the forest between the two chains of mountains topped by castles, due northeast of the former capitol of Lanka, southeast of the capitol of Helheim, due west of the capitol of Hinnom.

The capitol of Kailasa is #206 if you were thinking of invading them. I will provide you with significant scrying data for their provinces and conduct free Stone Sphere scans of anything you like in either of these nations, just PM me! Scans of allied nations will not be given.

[DrPraetorious]

Hate to disappoint, Verj, but having given my heartfelt pleas for them to attack you, I'd feel a bit of a poor sport to stab them in the back now.

But, then again, I am working on my betrayal skills...

[Verjigorm]

Oh, you can't disappoint me since, as someone who obviously has almost 50% of the required victory points, I would never expect anyone who wasn't doomed, betrayed, or generally disgruntled to side with me since by doing so one virtually ensures themselves not to win. There are, however, lots of reasons to switch sides, above and beyond that which have been given. Plus, the idea that, if I am unsuccessful in my attempts to repel the alliance, that I shall at the very least stack the deck in favor of TNN's loss even though, should he succeed, he shall have a good position on winning.

This being my very first MP game, I've thought that my performance with this only briefly tested build is quite promising, though I am always thinking of ways to tweak it or alternatives. It being an Immortal Pretender Turtling strategy, I have found it quite effective at repelling the Celtic hordes, though I think next time, I should like to have more castles... Of course, if I want more castles, I should just play LA Man...

Of course one should never be pessimistic about ones own strategy... I just need to hold on for 20 turns and then success, and King of the Hill is one of the most challenging victories to pull off.... Therefore, I must reply:

Mwahahahahahahahahaha!!!! All shall fall before the Blinding Light of the Grand Empress of the World, Shaula for all the heavens bow before her greatness!

[Peacekeeper]

when looking for help, its probably not wise to cast Wrath of God beforehand. I never would have attacked you if you didnt cast that global.

[Pablomatic]

The Tir General Staff assures all assembled that Tir has more than one Spearpoint. We are well aware that we cannot afford to risk ourselves entirely against the Philosophers and leave openings for a stab in the back as others husband their strength.

Our only significant casualties to date have been the result of Arco's two global enchantments. All other nations should be aware of the danger they pose.

Many of you other nations have been waiting, as we were, for others to bear the burden of war to claim the sacred VPs. I say to you now that Tir na n'Og will not bear the entire burden of war with the Philosophers, because we are aware of the larger implications. If we can easily defeat him, we may, but we will never overcommit outside our heartland.

It so happens that Arco's Capitol is located in province 97 on the north bank of the river, between two bridges to the west of the VP lake, if anyone didn't know. It was this discovery, in part that prompted our war. Arcosephale cannot allow anyone close to the VPs because his capitol is there, while we can allow help against him from any quarter, and do not need to hold the VPs.

The Philosophers also mentioned "allies." We ask all free nations to ponder the meaning of this statement. The actions of every nation shall, as Arcosephale gains VP points, reveal much. If Arco is allied with someone, and they hold VPs, can the two combine VPs for the win? I assume not. Declare a joint victory then?

*Also, I will be unable to submit turns from Saturday the 30th until the following Saturday. I have posted for a sub. If anyone knows of a possible sub, please pass this request on.*

[TwoBits]

The Stone Circle of Marverni wishes to say this:

We control three of the six Sacred VP Provinces (as declared by the previous Pentakrator, RIP). But we have not, and will not, declare "ownership", and thus vp's, until we have proven ourselves worthy to do so, in honest warfare (consider that our pledge!).

Arcoscephale, while we have been friendly to you in the past, your provocations of late have been grievous. More than one of our Druids, most holy to the mighty Bump of Chicken, have been slain by your foul "lightning", costing us a great deal in gold and gems (consider our anguish and frustration when we saw that important commanders with valuable gear had been slain by your folly!).

Marverni will defend its own interests of course. But do not count on us to defend you from your own mistakes - Arcoscephale, you are on your own.

The Stone Circle

[Hoplosternum]

I am off on holiday. Valerius has kindly agreed to sub for me while I am gone.

[Hoplosternum]

I have sent Valerius's email address to chrispederson to change Helheim's email address while I am away.

[Verjigorm]

when looking for help, its probably not wise to cast Wrath of God beforehand. I never would have attacked you if you didnt cast that global.

I had to cast it. TNN has Glamour stealth units. I need to be able to kill them even if I cannot see them. The global would not have been cast but for the attack by TNN. I realize that it is a diplomatic nightmare, but... There really isn't a better defense against strong glamour stealth units.

As for assistance, Twobits, I hadn't expected any after casting Wrathful Skies. It's not a move that I would have preferred to take, but I had no choice--without the global, TNN may very well have overrun my defenses--His thugs are rather powerful and he is using Fog Warriors. TNN, rather than electing to fight over the VP provinces in and of themselves, decided to lie to me (indicating that he had no intention of attacking) and then begin taking provinces with his glamour stealth army. While you may consider Wrathful skies a "mistake", I may have died but for it's power and that would have been a far greater mistake.

As a final note... If there were a version of Wrathful Skies that only affected provinces under white candle, that would have truly been my preference, but no such option exists. I also do not mind so much taking the current position I have as the VP accumulation would have turned everyone on me anyway eventually, and I do so very much enjoy a challenge.

20 turns until I win at present velocity... 20 turns of King of the Hill... If I succeed it will be spectacular. If I fail, t'will have been a most excellent fight!

[Verjigorm]

It so happens that Arco's Capitol is located in province 97 on the north bank of the river, between two bridges to the west of the VP lake, if anyone didn't know. It was this discovery, in part that prompted our war. Arcosephale cannot allow anyone close to the VPs because his capitol is there, while we can allow help against him from any quarter, and do not need to hold the VPs.

...and thus you realize the crux of the problem as I have from the beginning of the game. I had, when the game started, imagined that we would all be spaced a bit further from the VP provinces, but was astounded on my first turn to realize that I would spend the entire game defending the sacred lake... Quite an interesting challenge, no?

My primary goal was to stave of discovery of this little piece of information for as long as possible. I had never imagined it would take 45 turns for that to become general knowledge. ^_^

This game is such fun, so far. I'm sure you won't disappoint me.

[chrispedersen]

Email address for Hellheim changed.

[Pablomatic]

I have posted and looked for a sub. I don't have one. I will be gone on business from this Saturday, May 3 to the following Saturday June 4.

What shall I do. It would be a shame to put TNN on AI. Please advise.

[Peacekeeper]

post a thread about it, not just in the "looking for subs" topic. noone checks that anyway. Be sure to include basic information about the game, for example its turns 46(not sure its actually this but its in the ballpark), you are one of the stronger nations in the game, etc.

[Verjigorm]

I have posted and looked for a sub. I don't have one. I will be gone on business from this Saturday, May 3 to the following Saturday June 4.

What shall I do. It would be a shame to put TNN on AI. Please advise.

Hell no! I don't care if you have to pause it for 7 days. :)

Of course, it's up to a majority vote I suppose.

[Pablomatic]

I have posted and looked for a sub. I don't have one. I will be gone on business from this Saturday, May 3 to the following Saturday June 4.

What shall I do. It would be a shame to put TNN on AI. Please advise.

Hell no! I don't care if you have to pause it for 7 days. :)

Of course, it's up to a majority vote I suppose.

Thanks Verjigorm, you also are a worthy opponent.

Looks like I have a sub. I believe all I have to do is send Chrispeterson the sub's email when I have it.
I'll keep you posted, because I've already sent in the last turn I can for awhile.