Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)

[Foodstamp]

The summonable Thug thread got me to thinking it would be neat to have a thread where people list units and other people respond by suggesting affordable(or expensive) magic items and a sample scripting that turns the unit into a thug.

I will get the ball rolling.

MA Man's Bard

I've been kicking around the idea of turning MA Man bards into thugs. Not ranged thugs, but a unit that can mix it up a little up front. How would you turn a bard into a melee thug?

Remember to post a unit you would like to see turned into a thug as well (If you like).

[Jarkko]

As the bard can self-buff with Eagle eye, it would be natural to have him as a ranged thug.

However (never tried this, but its variation works with Sleepers), if you want him to go up close and personal, then I guess he would work against undead (say Ermor) with Wardens set to Guard Commander (and somebody behind doing the blessing and banishing). Give the Bard a Herald Lance (will pump the standard ability to a healthy 18) and some cheap armour+shield (shield of valor might be in order, in case there are some missiles flying around), script Eagle Eyes, Song of Bravery, Solar Rays x 3, Attack Rear. If you have three such bards each with 10 wardens as their guards in center, that center should never break against undeads (10 guards actually allow them to move forwards with the Attack Rear order).

Can't think of any other use of him up front. I'd place him right behind the front units with a bow fitting the oppositition (for example Bow of War agaisnt massed armies, or Thunderbow vs more tougher opponents). Script Eagle Eyers, Song of Bravery, Fire.

[Stavis_L]

MA Man's Bard

I've been kicking around the idea of turning MA Man bards into thugs. Not ranged thugs, but a unit that can mix it up a little up front. How would you turn a bard into a melee thug?

Remember to post a unit you would like to see turned into a thug as well (If you like).

For reference, the wiki article for the bard (http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Bard).

Differences vs. a "generic" unit:

1) Spy (also means highly stealthy)
2) 11 precision
3) 1N magic
4) the "Standard" effect, rating 10
5) MR 12

While these guys are definitely not going to cut it as solo thugs, they can definitely improve the effectiveness of infantry they are mixed in with. Unfortunately, they don't have much armor themselves. So perhaps give them a suit of cheap armor (maybe black steel or copper plate), script barkskin, mix in a clump of infantry, attack closest, and don't worry too much if they die? You could give them a vine shield and they'd survive much better (as would the surrounding infantry), but that's pretty expensive for a thug that you're going to lose a lot of.

Unfortunately, I don't really see it.

As artillery thugs, though, they can script eagle eyes on top of their already slightly higher precision and go to town. You've probably already got lots of longbows as Man (so Bow of War is less attractive), but bards are stealthy, so there's that...probably better to go with Botulf/Vision's Foe/Lightning Bow and put them on anti-large thug/SC duty.

[Foodstamp]

Good suggestions. Don't forget to post a unit you want turned into a thug. Markata Scout anyone? ;)

[sansanjuan]

Good suggestions. Don't forget to post a unit you want turned into a thug. Markata Scout anyone? ;)

I was wondering if that d1 flying Indy Mage might thug.

tangent
Would make for an interesting challange. Players get a standard commander and 15 gems of any flavor. Battles would be arena toe to toe with other commanders. Think there was an sc comp years back won by a poison golem.
Ssj

[Gandalf Parker]

I might thug out a bard slightly before sending him off to instill uprisings. So that he can put up a good fight if he gets caught. Some wardens, or druid archers if you can get them, as backup

[Gregstrom]

Karasu Tengu? It's a summon that seems only to be there for thugdom.

[Foodstamp]

I think I am going to try a frost brand, vine shield, cat charm and mix him in with some chaff. For script, barkskin, hold, hold, attack closest.

SSJ, are you talking about the Harab Seraph that is found with the raptors as an indy?



The new unit is:



Harab Seraph

[Stavis_L]

Don't forget to post a unit you want turned into a thug.

OK, everyone knows that Pans make great thugs. But they're awfully expensive, especially if you take turmoil. How about Dryads (http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Dryad_%28Late_Era%29)?

What do they have going for them over a standard human (for thugging)?

1) Stealthy
2) 1N, 1H (and thus self-blessable)
3) Awe 3
4) MR16
5) 15AP
6) 12 Def
7) 80G recruit anywhere
8) Full slots

Cons:
1) HP are a bit low for a thug (11)
2) Come with no useful equipment (0 prot unequipped.)

[Foodstamp]

So we have:

Karasu Tengu

Dryad

Harab Seraph

[Jarkko]

I use Dryads of the earlier ages (who have H2) as semi-thugs, leading sacred sneakers.

Any sort of cheap armour and vine-shield, frost or fire brand, horror helmet, AMA (if you have access to astral) and a ring of regen (and my favourite, flying boots, but that really requires special things to get the air access). Script Bless, Holy Avenger, attack rear (while the sacred centaurs have attack closest). Works wonders against any non-undead targets or non-barbarians, simply because nobody has the guts to attack her, and if they do half the time they don't get past the AMA, and if they do the armour should help enough to let the ring of regen heal the wounds. By far not the cheapest thug, but so incredibly useful together with berserking sacred centaurs.



If anybody wants to see a markata scout thug in action, I suppose you have seen my video on Aracana the markata scout thug? :) Not cheap, not most likely very useful against a human player, but oh yeah does it feel good when a markata scout chops up Niefel giants left and right :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vu6X3ko-5Ho
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQwerXKXFrQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbTSeJu7QaA

[Fantomen]

Regarding dryads, those are quotes from some LA pan discussion. The trick being to combine the spellsongs with bodyguards of manikins(tune of dancing death) or dryad hoplites(tune of fear). Perhaps it could work with Tune of growth and minotaur bodyguards for earlier ages?

A thing I´m using is Black dryad "thugs" with reinvig items/shield and mandragora/manikin bodyguards spamming tunes of growth/fear/dancing death on the front lines. Works great in synergy with the quickened sleep vines (from quick roots). Script something like blessing/quick roots/barkskin/tune of X/tune of X/spells. Also doable with normal dryads w rod of the leper king. The disease isn´t too much of a problem with recup+regen.

Also early game a dryad with a few (like 5) dryad hoplite bodyguards can take most indies if given a hide shield (preferably two) and scripted bless/barkskin/hold/hold/spells or a bit later bless/protection/protection/hold/hold/spells. The dryad will cast mostly tune of fear which makes your awed units near untouchable and eventually routs the enemy. Just watch out for crossbows.

[chrispedersen]

Turning a bard into a thug:
Give him an amulet of lycanthropy ... and wait.

Once he's a werewolf, a snakebladder stick, and a vineshield. Between the wearwolf regen and the amulet of lycan, his regen will exceed your poison damage.

If you're lucky.

[sansanjuan]

I think I am going to try a frost brand, vine shield, cat charm and mix him in with some chaff. For script, barkskin, hold, hold, attack closest.

SSJ, are you talking about the Harab Seraph that is found with the raptors as an indy?



The new unit is:



Harab Seraph

Yeah. Not much moxie now that I look at him. Perhaps best left spamming skellies.
-ssj

[Foodstamp]

I think I am going to try a frost brand, vine shield, cat charm and mix him in with some chaff. For script, barkskin, hold, hold, attack closest.

SSJ, are you talking about the Harab Seraph that is found with the raptors as an indy?



The new unit is:



Harab Seraph

Yeah. Not much moxie now that I look at him. Perhaps best left spamming skellies.
-ssj

He has decent natural precision. You could leverage that at least. Or how about a Standard of the Damn and Eye of Aiming? Mix in with some chaff to leverage the fear effect and life drain some mofos.

[Gandalf Parker]

Seems a waste not to make use of his flight.

Poison ring, gall bladder, skull amulet. Still leaves room for good armor.
Or maybe some other flyers set to guard commander

Set him in the back flanks so the forward units draw the focus of the enemy. Hold, then Attack archers or attack rear-most?

[Rookierookie]

Five-fold Angel of Bogarus? (Or whatever it's name is)

[Jarkko]

Regarding dryads, those are quotes from some LA pan discussion. The trick being to combine the spellsongs with bodyguards of manikins(tune of dancing death) or dryad hoplites(tune of fear). Perhaps it could work with Tune of growth and minotaur bodyguards for earlier ages?
Putting an unarmoured dryad up front in late age is calling for doom, no matter if you equip her with a shield or two. There are very few non-missile indies or PD's out there, and a single arrow hitting the dryad is all that it takes to destroy the whole group; I've tried it quite a few times, and I know it just doesn't float reliably. Unarmoured dryads should IMO stay the heck out from the frontlines.

In earlier ages centaurs and revelers are so marvelous, there is no need for minotaurs except when storming forts. The centaurs (both regulare and the white ones) have enormous staying power, the revelers are quite good too at staying alive (and lots of cheaper than the centaurs). However, if you are not using the centaurs or revelers in a sneaky raiding group, an indy commander with a bow (for example those light cavalry commanders) will be better than a dryad to lead the group (and in many cases I would take some indy sneaker or harpy to lead the group, rather than waste a dryad to the task).

In Late Age I use groups of Black Dryad + 6 dryad hoplites to expand early on, with everything set far back. The Black Dryad is scripted Bless x 2 (as she has just H1, she is likely to miss some of the hoplites else), Spells; she will start to fear the opposition which thus improves the survival of the dryad hoplites to nearly insane levels (fear + awe is just marvelous, and the dryad hoplites have excellent stats and good gear too to further improve their staying power), while staying well out of range of the hostile archers. The expansion groups can later on be grouped together for a really impressive central block of dryad hoplites.



In my opinion the dryads, to be thugs that is, really need decent equipment to make them shine. As such, they are not cheap thugs, but in spesific situations they really do shine (but still need the help of the berserking troops). As spell-casters in armies they are useful for other reasons, but that was not what this thread is about :)

[GameExtremist]

Warrior Smith from EA Ulm...

[Gregstrom]

Read Baalz' EA Ulm guide - it has loads of Warrior Smith thuggery ideas in there.

[Jarkko]

Read Baalz' EA Ulm guide - it has loads of Warrior Smith thuggery ideas in there.
For the late-game it relies on earth-gem generation and the earth booster from Bloodstones, so not working in CBM1.6 anymore.

[Gregstrom]

The guide as a whole is now flawed, but I think the base ideas on how to thug Smiths are pretty much valid.

[TwoBits]

How about the CBM 1.6 Boar Lord? Cap only, but then Marverni can get Druids and all its other commanders from any fort.

Costs 50gp, and comes with:

16 HP

12 Protection

14 Strength

15 Attack and Defense

Berserker +5! (so that's what, 17 Prot, 19 Strength, 20 Attack, but only 10 Defense - depending on equipment, when berserk?).

Is H1 (so can self bless).

Has Reinvigoration +4 (and his base melee encumbrance is 5, so is that like 10 when berserk? then he damn well needs that +4, and maybe then-some?).

Is naturally armed with the Druid Blessed Axe, which does 7 AP damage (-1 attack and defense though), and causes Entanglement.

That's a very interesting package for only 50gp. It would be a shame to swap out his interesting main weapon (so would you?), it seems. And tactically, how would you deploy him? Obviously seems great to counter fear-inducing enemies, as long as he goes berserk before getting killed... What else might this guy be useful for, and if so, what minor gifts would you bestow upon him?

[rdonj]

Berserk encumbrance is only +2 regardless of the berserk value. He might be doable with just something like a girdle of might, maybe a cat charm or something.

[TwoBits]

Ah, thanks for that info on berserk encumbrance, rdonj! Well, this makes the Boar Lord (CBM1.6) even more intriguing. So with a couple of trinkets or some such (or naked, right out of the box?), how would folks use him?

[thejeff]

I wouldn't bother with cat charm. It just bumps his berserk defense up to tolerable. It wouldn't save him.

I don't have the game in front of me, but I'd try to boost his protection.
Replace his armor if you're using him without mages. Protection/LoS/Ironskin if you can.
Luck pendant?, something for reinvig.
Minor Earth bless might be sufficient.

Does he have a shield or is that Axe 2-handed?

[Makinus]

And the standard barbarian leader? Any hints to how to thug it? Preferably with 10 gems or less (assuming a Hammer for forging).

[Rytek]

give them an E9 bless, (helps the druids too).
Add a bracer of defense and luck pendant at Con level 2.
Have 2 of the sacreds guard him. cast bless, attack.

research Alt 3. Add a S1/N1 druid. set caster 1 space from the Boar lord/2 sacreds, druid casts Body Ethereal/Protection.

At con 4/Alt 4 replace luck pendant with lycanthrope amulet on the boar lord
Add another S1/N1 druid to the group.
1st druid casts body ethereal/protection/eagle eye
2nd druid casts luck/bless/eagle eye

Gives protection 30 ethereal lucky regenerating beserked boar lord.


How abaout one of the Kappa commanders that MA Shinuyama gets?

[Stavis_L]

I wouldn't bother with cat charm. It just bumps his berserk defense up to tolerable. It wouldn't save him.

I don't have the game in front of me, but I'd try to boost his protection.
Replace his armor if you're using him without mages. Protection/LoS/Ironskin if you can.
Luck pendant?, something for reinvig.
Minor Earth bless might be sufficient.

Does he have a shield or is that Axe 2-handed?

It's 1 handed, and he comes with a standard shield. I'd go with a nature shield (preferably vine or eye) dropping 1 from encumbrance) and a barkskin amulet (pushing protection to respectable levels with off the shelf armor + berserk) - that, plus a minor earth bless should result in net 0 encumbrance after self-blessing. 50G + 10-15N gems before hammers. Should be much more survivable with any of the following, still relatively cheap upgrades:
* Some form of regeneration. If you've got an N bless, score!
* Stone boots (vs. the barkskin, no point in both)
* Pendant of Luck

If you don't have a minor E bless, Girdle of Might or Nature boots (birch or messenger) work too (in which case you might as well use the Lycanthrope amulet for the regen and start off berserk.)

Of course, for crowd control he'd need an area effect weapon, so he'd be a better anti-thug thug with his armor-piercing weapon and high strength - depending on what he's up against, if he's not going to survive a hit anyway, you could just send as-is.

[LoloMo]

How about a CBM 1.6 MA Caelum Storm General?

Hit Points: 11 Size: 3
Attack Skill: 12 Defence Skill: 16
Strength: 10 Protection: 14
Precision: 11 Magic Resistance: 11
Morale: 14 Encumbrance: 8
Map Movement: 3 Action Points: 6
Equipment
Weapon: Ice Blade
Armor: Ice Cuirass
Armor: Ice Helmet
Armor: Ice Aegis

Is he good to go with just a frost brand?

[Festin]

What about Abyssian Demonbreeds? Both EA and MA are interesting, but mainly the mage version. Is it possible to make a cost-effective thug out of this one?

[Diabl0658]

I found an indi site with that allowed me to recruit gnomes (http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Gnome).

I gave them a black heart and a bloodstone each and just dropped them in my opponents capital and had them summon earth elementals during the assassination attempts.

On a related note, astral 9 blesses are the best assassin blesses. No more frozen heart first turn deaths!

[Sombre]

On a related note, astral 9 blesses are the best assassin blesses. No more frozen heart first turn deaths!

This is only true if you also gave every assassin a shroud.

[Foodstamp]

I found an indi site with that allowed me to recruit gnomes (http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Gnome).

I gave them a black heart and a bloodstone each and just dropped them in my opponents capital and had them summon earth elementals during the assassination attempts.

On a related note, astral 9 blesses are the best assassin blesses. No more frozen heart first turn deaths!

That sounds pretty nasty. Is the bless for sacreds you gave the black heart to or actual blessable assassins? If it is the latter, which ones?

[Gregstrom]

Does anyone bar Aby get sacred recruitable assassins?

Edit: C'tis maybe?

[Olive]

And what would you give Skrattis ? I'm actually playing Utgard (sp game) and don't know what would suit them well. I mean, they're obvious thugs, but it's so tempting to give them full equipment. If it's possible to boost them with only a few gems...

Shroud of the Battle Saint seems OK, even with minor blesses (Actually I've a F4A4W4E4S6N4 bless). A pendant of luck too.

Otherwise, I miss ideas of for cheap and efficient items.

Boots of the messenger if no reinvigoration bless ?
If no interesting bless, a robe of shadows ? (but it's 10 pearls and 0 protection).
Frost brand ? But the cold protection will be useless, maybe an enchanted sword to boost att/def.

Shield : I guess a raw hide shield or the cheap astral shield will do the job. Or a lucky coin, it spares the pendant of luck.

That would be 20 N/S gems without forge bonus.

Any better ideas ? With a preference for Utgard's national paths ( S N D W B )

[Olive]

Edit: C'tis maybe?

Empoisoners aren't sacred, but have D1N1. Shrouds of the Battle Saint can be easily forged by Shamans.

[Sombre]

Hang on hang on. You can't start talking about skrattis in this thread. You could talk about Jotun scouts maybe. Or shuten doji. Or cavemen chiefs.

[Foodstamp]

Out of the ones listed recently, the Shuten Doji and the Barbarian Chief are two I would be interested in as well :).

[Euarchus]

A Caveman Champion with a fleshwound axe (or whatever the 5 blood one is called) and a cheap suit of armour might be some help against the cold giants. Cold resistance 50%, relatively survivable with armour and 20-odd hps, enough strength to hurt the giants, and the axe will leave hopefully leave a fair few of them with chest wounds. 6 gems with a hammer, it's not a massive commitment. Mix them in with smaller troops to take hits and lower giant defence.

[chrispedersen]

And what would you give Skrattis ? I'm actually playing Utgard (sp game) and don't know what would suit them well. I mean, they're obvious thugs, but it's so tempting to give them full equipment. If it's possible to boost them with only a few gems...

Shroud of the Battle Saint seems OK, even with minor blesses (Actually I've a F4A4W4E4S6N4 bless). A pendant of luck too.

Otherwise, I miss ideas of for cheap and efficient items.

Boots of the messenger if no reinvigoration bless ?
If no interesting bless, a robe of shadows ? (but it's 10 pearls and 0 protection).
Frost brand ? But the cold protection will be useless, maybe an enchanted sword to boost att/def.

Shield : I guess a raw hide shield or the cheap astral shield will do the job. Or a lucky coin, it spares the pendant of luck.

That would be 20 N/S gems without forge bonus.

Any better ideas ? With a preference for Utgard's national paths ( S N D W B )

Take a look at baalz's guide. But I am way in favor of dual wielding blood thorns, and probably AMR.

[Olive]

Take a look at baalz's guide. But I am way in favor of dual wielding blood thorns, and probably AMR.

Great, thanks. Didn't thought of the Axe, seems like good stuff. :)

[Wrana]

A Leo? (LA Pythium Mythraist heretic with F1) He has good stats for human and comes with armor and sword...
Vanherse/Helcarl/Dis? They are Vans and would probably be good - but Vanjarls are so much better! The question is - is there a cheap way to use them as something other than troop leaders. I thought about using missile weapons, but am not sure...
Amazons? I mean Priestesses and Sorceresses of various independent Amazon tribes. Of course, they are mostly useful for magic diversity - but did anybody use them as thugs?

[aaminoff]

I am in an MP game as Helheim and I have started recruiting a couple of Vanherses to be archers. With A1 you can self buff Aim, and they start with Prec 14 or so. The only equipment you need is the bow itself; these guys should stay in the back shooting, behind a screen of PD or whatever else is on the battlefield. So they are not thugs as such, but they are a way to use a cheaper commander instead of the ubiquitous Vanjarl. It's a side strategy, about 60-80% of my commanders are Vanjarls with golden shield & brand. I should add that I'm using an E9N4 bless.

Helcarls are actually pretty good for initial expansion, and do nearly as well as the Vanjarls as thugs early on. Unfortunately what sends the Vanjarl from good to awesome is Mistform. So one could have a bunch of Helcarls and Helhirdings and have a Hangadrott apply Fog Warriors. But at that point, again, these are not thugs, they're just very good line troops.

[chrispedersen]

A Leo? (LA Pythium Mythraist heretic with F1) He has good stats for human and comes with armor and sword...
Vanherse/Helcarl/Dis? They are Vans and would probably be good - but Vanjarls are so much better! The question is - is there a cheap way to use them as something other than troop leaders. I thought about using missile weapons, but am not sure...
Amazons? I mean Priestesses and Sorceresses of various independent Amazon tribes. Of course, they are mostly useful for magic diversity - but did anybody use them as thugs?

Best leo thug would be phoenix pyre. Give him a crystal heart if you absolutely feel required to give him gear.

[Wrana]

Best leo thug would be phoenix pyre. Give him a crystal heart if you absolutely feel required to give him gear.
But he can't cast it! :)

[chrispedersen]

huh? why not? just give him fire gems

[Sombre]

He'd suck with pyre, because he'd have insane fatigue just from casting it.

[chrispedersen]

Well, he sucks as a thug generally. But he's cheap enough to throw 5-6 of them at a starting army and blow it up using pyre.

We have demonstrated that multiple gems will remove fatigue btw.. so if you give him 4-5 gems you might be able to control the fatgue question. I'm uncertain of that.

But like I said... if you feel compelled, give him the heart which does reinvig 10.

[Calahan]

...We have demonstrated that multiple gems will remove fatigue btw.. so if you give him 4-5 gems you might be able to control the fatgue question...
He's only got one level in Fire magic, so is only able to use one fire gem, so won't be able to reduce his casting fatigue by burning extra gems.

[chrispedersen]

I used to believe that gems were limited to one for fatigue reduction purposes. Squirrel provided a turn that proved that wasnt' so.

He also had an F4 oracle burning 6 gems (1 the spell, 2 for fatigue). the same turn documented another case of the same thing.
Others have shown shark attack to do the same thing.

So I don't believe this is correct. However, without testing it.. who knows.
Still, 5-6 Leo's blowing up 1-2 times would be enough to take out many medium armies.

[thejeff]

Wait, I knew there was some debate about burning extra gems to reduce fatigue, but I thought it was pretty solid that a mage couldn't use more gems for anything than he had levels in the path?

[Wrana]

Still, 5-6 Leo's blowing up 1-2 times would be enough to take out many medium armies.
And if you are offering to burn gems and add a reinvigoration-heart - why not add heart, gem, then script, say, Phoenix Power-attack-Immolate-Immolate-Immolate?

[chrispedersen]

Sure, or give him a medallion of vengeance on top....

immolate is a great spell - but it requires surviving to use, and if you are attacking naked, its quite likely that you will not be surviving to cast it.

whereas phoenix does not have that requirement.

[Wrana]

Sure, or give him a medallion of vengeance on top....

immolate is a great spell - but it requires surviving to use, and if you are attacking naked, its quite likely that you will not be surviving to cast it.

whereas phoenix does not have that requirement.

Tested in SP, they survived in close combat for some time. As I said, thei have above-average stats & are armored...

[Jarkko]

In a game as LA Pythium I wanted to get rid of a Leo for whome I found no use (and the bastard was killing my dominion in the border areas), I put him at front with the troopers (slightly aside of them) in an army which was attacking an AI controlled nation. Scripted IIRC Fire Shield, Fireflies, Burning Hands x 3, Attack rear.

When I was viewing the battlereport, to my suprise he had dutifully burned quite a few enemies (those Leo's apparently can take a beating with just their standard equipment), but was killed when, after he had charged forwards and passed out, got surrounded and killed.

Didn't think of it more then except as a quirk, but now that it was mentioned, maybe a few Leos at front would indeed be nice flamethrowers together with for example fire drakes or some such?

Hmmm... have to test this out at some point :)

[chrispedersen]

As I said in my pythium guide... I'm quite fond of both of the fire throwers.

[Sombre]

I think you have the right idea using the leos to cast burning hands. The fire shield seems to me to be pointless, because with all that fatigue the second they touch melee they die horribly.

[chrispedersen]

probably very much like shockwave, the question is how do you position and script for maximum efficiency.

[Jarkko]

It actually works, when there is somebody to catch the arrows, at least against indies. Tried with three Leo's soloing a weak indy province, got trashed. Took two Leo's, added in the 15 Comitatense from the starting army, and no indy province (at Indy strength 5) seems to be able to stand against them.

Against Cavalry I start way back, slightly right from center, with the comitanense with Hold and Attack closest, the Leo's starting on both flanks and slightly more to left. Leo's are scripted Hold,Hold,Attack,Burning Hands x2 (and nothing after that). Works wonderfully.

Against everything else the Comitanense is scripted Attack Closest, starting as far right as they can. The Leo's start slightly to left on each flank, with Attack, Attack, Attack, Burning Hands, Burning Hands (and nothing after that). Even Barbarians are burned and routed fast.

I attacked 8 indy provinces with that army, lost one Comitanense (against a province with knights and crossbowmen) in the process. In practically all the fights the Leos were also hit (the other one lost an eye somewhere along the road), but they seem to be quite tough indeed. I am frankly quite amazed at how efficient killing machines they turned out to be.

Then again, just a test vs indy provinces with easy research and an awake Great Sage pretender, so Burning Hands was available on Turn 2. So can hardly be extrapolated that far, but still, under right circumstances the Leo's certainly could be used as front line damage dealers.

[Fantomen]

Thats a cool discovery Jarkko. Got to do some tests now.

[Foodstamp]

Jarkko that is a really cool use for Leos. It has been a while since I looked at LA Pythium... if they have access to air you could forge the Leos some amulets to protect against arrows.

[chrispedersen]

LA Pythium doesn't have native access to air;

Both the comitanse have 50% fire resistance. The other fire thrower is a 1f ?(FE). Which works well with eagle eyes. Which is why I think the research path for Pythium is evocation, not conjuration.

As for the results 15 or so comitense can take almost any indy, anyway, so I'm not sure we're adding much via the leo.

[Graeme Dice]

The Theurgs have 1S and 1(AWS).

[Foodstamp]

Ethereal flamethrowers even :).

[Jarkko]

As for the results 15 or so comitense can take almost any indy, anyway, so I'm not sure we're adding much via the leo.
Indeed, the Comitanense are tough, they have lots of staying power. They walz through weaker indies like nothing even alone (just a commander to lead them is needed). However, when I've tried to use them (even with the help of a prophet) against knights or barbarians, they've gotten trashed. The Leos added quite a punch to that staying power (and the Leos themselves have nice staying power to stand up front to deal the damage). Yet, as I mentioned, I wouldn't advice anybody to actively go for this strategy, but it certainly opened up to me that the Leos actually might have uses in certain situations, and I actually believe I might have a cunning plan for them in a few situations (need to test this out first :) ).

[Wrana]

Indeed, the Comitanense are tough, they have lots of staying power.
I think about trying Limitani Solaris. They are cheaper, produced everywhere and have fire resistance in case Leo misses.

[chrispedersen]

As for the results 15 or so comitense can take almost any indy, anyway, so I'm not sure we're adding much via the leo.
Indeed, the Comitanense are tough, they have lots of staying power. They walz through weaker indies like nothing even alone (just a commander to lead them is needed). However, when I've tried to use them (even with the help of a prophet) against knights or barbarians, they've gotten trashed. The Leos added quite a punch to that staying power (and the Leos themselves have nice staying power to stand up front to deal the damage). Yet, as I mentioned, I wouldn't advice anybody to actively go for this strategy, but it certainly opened up to me that the Leos actually might have uses in certain situations, and I actually believe I might have a cunning plan for them in a few situations (need to test this out first :) ).

Don't get me wrong.. I still like leos. body ethereal burning hands has a lot to recommend it.

that said, if you want to take out cav, 80 gold get you 10 netwielding retiaris.. a cheaper solution for cavalry cannot be imagined.

[Fantomen]

Ok, another challenge: Machakas Black sorcerer. Is there any cost effective way to make proper use of their second shape ability? Can they be made into frontline damage dealers, or something thugish?

If those could change shape at will, like the skratti, they'd be totally awesome thugs.(maybe a possible CBM change to boost poor little Machaka?)

But as it is now, I haven't succeded in making them good at anything exept regular battle magery. They're totally awesome at that of course, but that unused potential itches...

[Baalz]

They're very nasty front line vomiting flame eruption as Wingeddog learned me upside my face. Give them some black hunter bodyguards, run forward one turn and cast flame eruption. Second form keeps them from dying from an unlucky hit so you can use them in close range, and 3-4 of them doing this will annihilate huge swaths of most troops. That's 26+ AP damage with a 15 AOE and they can cast it several times as fresh troops climb over the charred bodies of their front lines.

[Maerlande]

Well, on a quick read I didn't find a reference, but I've had some quite excellent success with hawk commanders (call of winds) with dual bottles of water. But don't send the damn hawks with them or they just rout. You can go with one bottle, but 2 seems to be the trick. One of those things when you have air and water gems to burn but short on others.

[chrispedersen]

Ok, another challenge: Machakas Black sorcerer. Is there any cost effective way to make proper use of their second shape ability? Can they be made into frontline damage dealers, or something thugish?

If those could change shape at will, like the skratti, they'd be totally awesome thugs.(maybe a possible CBM change to boost poor little Machaka?)

But as it is now, I haven't succeded in making them good at anything exept regular battle magery. They're totally awesome at that of course, but that unused potential itches...

Well... this would be my take:

amulet of luck, ring of regeneration.

Script summon earth power, invulnerability, soul vortex, fire shield.

Mix in a phoenix power if you can.


A 25 prot hunter spider, with fire shield and regen, and vortex going off isn't a bad thug. Give him plenty of gems ... skull of fire is another possibility. Giving him a guard of scum with low mr .. barbarians etc also good.

[Fantomen]

I've tried that actually. But the items + the need for extra gems + the tendency to rout when transforming ends up making them unreliable and cost ineffective. If you could get the pyre/vortex combo going without afflictions and other hassles then it might be worth it, but I only managed that with a success ratio of about 50&, not good enough. It works to a degree, but is it worth it?

A hunter lord with lycan amulet and girdle gives a lot more bang for the buck if you want a raider.

Frontline damage casters/buffers with some gear for survival seems to be the role of black sorcerors.

I also found them great for casting earthquakes since they are guaranteed to survive it.

How about the regular spider commanders, can they be thugged out somehow?

[Jarkko]

When alone, the Black Sorcerers rout everytime they are changed to spider form. Apparently the game thinks 100% of starting healthpoints have been lost when the transformation happens. The Black Sorcere is also prone to rout when with an army when he transforms.

After Fantomen asked the possibility to thug with two Black Sorcerer I tried one with Slave Matrix and Lycanthrope Amulet. Originally I had intended to send along a third Black Sorcerer with a Master Matrix to do the buffing, but as I stumbled on indy astral mages, so I sent one S1 mage (with a Just Mans cross) along and scripted Communion Master, Personal Luck, Body Ethereal, Fire Closest (and hoping an arrow or something would the sorcerer before he goes ethereal to make him transform). Ethereal Lucky Berserking Black Sorcerers/Spiders worked damn fine against AI nations and indies, but it really isn't something worth to plan on (first of all you need a pretender who can craft the matrixes, and then you need to find an indy astral mage). But that is all I could really think of, so...

[Natpy]

Best use of Black Sorcerer (with F random) is casting Fire Storm (with misc fire booster, Phoenix Power and 5 gems). And he can`t rout due overfatigue, so you can use some bodyguards, or summon elementals with another Black Sorcerer to protect storm-caster.

[vfb]

Jarkko, Body Ethereal is AoE and therefore will not pass on to slaves.

If you've got an S mage, you're better off casting (Body Ethereal,Luck) as buffs than setting up a communion.

[Sombre]

If you only have S1 then body ethereal and personal luck is going to give you some perilous fatigue. Better to just go with one of them.

[vfb]

No, he has a black sorcerer thug, with an S1 buffer tagging along behind.

[chrispedersen]

When alone, the Black Sorcerers rout everytime they are changed to spider form. Apparently the game thinks 100% of starting healthpoints have been lost when the transformation happens. The Black Sorcere is also prone to rout when with an army when he transforms.


Bodyguards helps with the routing problem....
but perhaps someone casting berserker or touch of madnes would be better.

PS I agree that they are better casters than thugs.. I just tried to answer the question as asked = ). Best does not mean good = ).

I've also been curious on the interactions between phoenix pyre, elixer's of life, hearts of life, and second forms.

Final bit of curiousity.. I wonder if a low defined damage.. like rigor mortis.. could be used to trigger the transformation without causing death or routing...

[chrispedersen]

So I did some more tests of black sorcerors... some very interesting results....


There are a variety of ways to make the black sorceror not route upon transformation.

1. Excess fatigue >100. With Prot 27 (e9, bracer, invul) and a fireshield, they spiders would not route due to fatigue.

2. Lycan amulet.

3. elixir of life. interestingly, this sets the fatigue to ZERO as well as prevents routing, upon transformation. And yes, you come in the second form, not the humanoid form.

4. medallion of vengeance. I never routed when I had this item either.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Some interesting combinations.
1. Skull of fire, elixir of life.
Script phoenix, summon earth power, invuln, fire shield..

After the bracers, summon earth power, and earth bless you will have reinvig 9 ish. Plus, your base encumbrance is 2.

With a 2F sorceror (3f can ignore skull or phoenix)... after the elixir kicks in you will wipe out your accumulated fatigue.. and the spider will have no hesitation at all about casting burning hands repeatedly.

2. Another interesting, if expensive combination:
slave matrix. medallion of vengeance/berserker pelt/elixir

slave matrix - for a weird, linebacker communion.
berserker pelt- makes the slave charge forward.

So, you cast all your buffs... slave charges forward.. is killed.
however, at which point the elixir drains all the fatigue away.
And now you have a linebacker buffed spider....

3. With a shroud, bracer, lycan amulet - I kept finding the shroud after combat, so long as I won. 6/6. Might be luck of course.


Last interesting tidbit.
The assassins make GREAT mummies.

[Wrana]

Last interesting tidbit.
The assassins make GREAT mummies.
Thanks for spider research. But this latter causes a question. Do you mean that mummy will retain assassin ability? Or what?

[chrispedersen]

No.

One of the reasons that I like mummies is that they have a disease cloud. The assassins wield bane blades, which cause decay.

When you are diseased, and hit with decay, it not only ages you, but causes hp loss. The assassins are dual wielding bane weapons.

Additionally, virtually all machaka wizards can cast fever - a spell usually overlooked.

Of course these spells are only suitable early game... but its pretty easy for machaka to get penetration

[Gregstrom]

When the assassin gets mummified I think it loses the Bane weapons. So can't you just put a Bane Blade on any old mummy?

[Sombre]

Yeah I don't follow this logic either.

[Wrana]

Another one - a Midgard (LA Vans) Galderman (skinshifter mage) - using only national mages for making equipment? I know they are primarily tough battlefield mages, but... ;)
My own thought is along a line of either Shroud (with E/N bless) or Rainbow armor, either some reinvigoration boots or Winged, plus some reinvigoration amulet. I'm not sure about whether to take pair of shields and Shock Wave spam or some weapon.

[legowarrior]

Dai Tengu, or any of the new Jomon Summons. And the Monk... Oh it would awesome to turn one of those monks into a Thug. Which every path pick.

[Fantomen]

Galderman has regeneration and air, so should make a workable thug with mistform and some reinvig item.

Stats are a bit low in human form though, I think the main problem here is that your vanjarls are better thugs so you'll rather spend your gems on them instead. If you get lucky with gems or get the forge up than maybe galdermen could see some thug use.

Edit: On second thought the galdermen might be as good or better than vanjarls if you go for a non-bless strategy and great scales. With skinshifter bodyguards used in groups with little or no equipment.

[Wrana]

Stats are a bit low in human form though, I think the main problem here is that your vanjarls are better thugs so you'll rather spend your gems on them instead. If you get lucky with gems or get the forge up than maybe galdermen could see some thug use.

Edit: On second thought the galdermen might be as good or better than vanjarls if you go for a non-bless strategy and great scales. With skinshifter bodyguards used in groups with little or no equipment.
Yes, I see it. Main problem with Vanjarls in LA is that they are capital-only. So that they aren't enough for all thug duties. I think about using Jarls for raiding and Galdermen for army support, or something like this. Plus, Galdermen have foot slot, making them useful flying thugs. And Vans are your only national priests in LA, too - so Vanjarls get an additional set of duties, too, for their small numbers.

[Wrana]

Dai Tengu, or any of the new Jomon Summons. And the Monk... Oh it would awesome to turn one of those monks into a Thug. Which every path pick.

Dai Tengu is a good thug with just Summon Earthpower and Mistform - which he can cast. Any bless helps, of course. Any Tengu bodyguards help, too - depending on his duties. The problem with he is that he's more useful as battlefield mage able to cast most army buffs. Other summons I didn't test, but may do soon.
Monks have too poor stats for thugs and can't have bodyguards. But they are useful as front-line casters. So, in addition to your Master Shukenja prophet you should use them from among your troops. Say, put them right next to some commander having 10+ bodyguards, give them some shields - depending on gems you have, and penetration boosters for Fire and Earth ones. Then spam Signs. Water ones should probably run forward and cast Freezing touch - or just stay at home. Nature ones gain level and then should spam any Nature spells you have researched.