OOB 066 Sweden [WIP]

[wulfir]

http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/9069/gillalget.jpg

OOB 066 SWEDEN

INTRODUCTION

The purpose of this thread is to store details of the Swedish Armed Forces, especially the Army, during primarily the Cold War era, but also later. My aim is to eventually expand the Swedish WinSPMBT OOB with correct formations, weapons etc – within the limits of the game.

Hopefully it will also provide some interesting reading for those that are unfamiliar with the history of a small neutral nation in the north of Europe.

[wulfir]

Units changed

[wulfir]

New units

[wulfir]

Formations changed

[wulfir]

New formations

[wulfir]

New weapons/weapons changed

[wulfir]

- BASICS -

During the Cold War the Swedish armed forces prepared to meet ‘the Invasion’.
The one potential enemy was the Soviet Union, often known by the term Stormakten –Swedish for ‘The Great Power’.

It was believed ‘the Great Power’ in times of conflict might have wanted grab Swedish territory or be able to use Swedish airspace in a war against the western powers, especially the northern and southern parts of the country.

The Swedish armed forces were meant to have such strength that a successful Soviet invasion would demand unreasonable resources and be much too costly to seem worthwhile.

Neutrality was a sacred concept and endorsed by the population at large. No political party would seriously question it, officially, as it was akin to political suicide. In secret Sweden had a lot of contact with the western powers, much of it something that the USSR was probably aware of.

Following the demise of the Soviet Union the Swedish armed forces were, over a period of years, subject to massive downsizing. Focus shifted steadily from “facing the invasion” to “international missions”. Today the aim of the Swedish armed forces is primarily being able to deploy smaller number of troops (from small detachments to battalion/battlegroup size) to various hotspots in the world, generally in a peacekeeping/peace-enforcing role.

[wulfir]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_ibORsFVvVQA/Ssb395H9TmI/AAAAAAAABlo/g_e45I96j3Y/s400/Lansen.jpg

- The Swedish Air Force -

Following the end of the second world war the Swedish Air Force – Flygvapnet – was greatly expanded. No longer was the Swedish air space to be defended by obsolete aircraft, but the best that could be found. Eventually a strong airplane industry producing high performance military aircraft was developed. In the early 1950s it was considered to be the 4th largest Air Force in the world. Although it did not retain this “rating” very long, for most of the cold war era the Air Force enjoyed being a prioritised branch. In numbers it was larger than all other Nordic countries combined.

Most of the Air Force strike aircraft were pooled in a unit known as E1 (1a Attackeskadern), sometimes nicknamed “the Supreme Commander’s heavy club”. Their primary mission was to attack the supposed Soviet invasion fleet during its passage in the Baltic. During the early stages of the cold war the Soviet naval forces had limited shipping resources and limited range on their fighters. It was not believed the Soviets would be able to mount a coastal invasion while E1 existed. However, during the later stages of the cold war Soviet weapons and aircraft became better. And unlike the Swedes they did not lessen their numbers.

In the age of the AJ37 Viggen it was expected E1 would be able to deliver four sorties on the invasion fleet. The priority targets being the Soviet escort vessels. If enough destroyers and corvettes were sunk the Soviets would have to abort or the Swedish navy and coastal artillery would slaughter the Soviet transport ships as it came close to the coast.

The secondary mission of E1 was to destroy roads in the north. A land invasion of northern Sweden would have to pass through Finland. There were six main roads (of which four were especially good) and one railway necessary to supply a broad invasion.

[wulfir]

- The Swedish Naval Service -

During the Cold war the Swedish Naval service had two main branches; one was the Navy and the other the Coastal Artillery.

The Navy
Following the Second World War Sweden had a conventional navy. The prospect of nuclear war and the threat from enemy aircraft led to the navy transforming to a coastal fleet of small fast attack craft along with submarines. The navy was entirely geared to meet the Soviet invasion, something known as “the curse of the Red Arrow”. There was a very limited understanding of any other maritime task than that of sinking Soviet transport ships in a total war environment. Only the submarines had the capability of offensive action. The surface attack craft would have to wait for the Soviet invasion fleet – “the Red Arrow” to come close to the Swedish coast before joining the battle. The navy also lacked an anti-ship missile for quite some time which was a great problem. During the 80s this changed, due to two main factors – one was the possibility of a surprising strategic assault (the navy was less dependent on mobilising forces than the army), the second factor was the supposed Soviet submarine activity in the Baltic. For a decade the hunting of Soviet submarines transformed the navy to a force in near constant readiness with much experience of anti-submarine service in the tricky conditions of the Baltic Sea. New weapons, including anti-ship missiles were also introduced. By the end of the Cold War the navy had swung from “the Curse of the Red Arrow” to contest a Soviet dominance of the sea, a first line of defence. Ironically by that time the Soviet Union fell apart.


The Coastal Artillery

The Costal Artillery had been established in 1902. It included an elaborate string of artillery fortifications, mine stations and mobile coastal artillery units eventually with both field artillery and missiles established along sensitive areas of the Swedish coast, mostly in the southern parts. The Coastal Artillery also operated smaller naval vessels.

Although the primary mission was to engage enemy shipping it was also to work, when necessary, in conjunction with the Army.

The Coastal Artillery also included the Coastal Ranger formations established in the late 1950s – a sort of light infantry operating in the archipelago areas. They were and remain one of the more fabled groups in the entire Swedish armed forces, although today their mission has changed somewhat.

The Coastal Artillery was disbanded in 2000 and replaced with the much smaller Amphibious Corps. Virtually all of the artillery emplacements and fortifications were taken out of comission.

[wulfir]

- The Army -

The army was the largest branch of the defence force during the cold war.
It had a peacetime structure devoted to “producing” wartime formations.
The army was entirely dependent upon mobilisation to reach any strength.
Although it had readiness formations there were no standing units. All the gear were stored in dispersed locations known as mobilisation depots where the conscript/reservists would go to be kitted out.

At various training establishments, commonly known as regiments, the conscripts were given their recruit training. Following this they would be called up for refresher training after a few years with their wartime unit. At a certain age they were generally transferred to local defence units and a new set of conscripts had to be trained for that particular unit.

The army was organised in fördelningsförband (fördelning is a division size unit), brigadförband, (brigade size units) and försvarsområdesförband (Defence Area units – included various battalion size formations, local defence and Home Guard).




The branches of the army were:
Infantry
Cavalry*
Armour
Artillery
Army Air**
Anti Air
Engineers
Signals
Supply

*In the Swedish army, horses were used well into the 1960s. Following the de-horsing the cavalry regiments generally produced war time units of light infantry character.

**Army Air (Arméflyget) operated the helicopters of the army.

[wulfir]

Ops..., just noticed I can't edit any post in this thread apart from the first one - I had planned to list all changes as I get them done, but I guess that won't be possible...:doh:

[cbreedon]

- The Swedish Naval Service -

During the Cold war the Swedish Naval service had two main branches; one was the Navy and the other the Coastal Artillery.

The Navy
Following the Second World War Sweden had a conventional navy. The prospect of nuclear war and the threat from enemy aircraft led to the navy transforming to a coastal fleet of small fast attack craft along with submarines. The navy was entirely geared to meet the Soviet invasion, something known as “the curse of the Red Arrow”. There was a very limited understanding of any other maritime task than that of sinking Soviet transport ships in a total war environment. Only the submarines had the capability of offensive action. The surface attack craft would have to wait for the Soviet invasion fleet – “the Red Arrow” to come close to the Swedish coast before joining the battle. The navy also lacked an anti-ship missile for quite some time which was a great problem. During the 80s this changed, due to two main factors – one was the possibility of a surprising strategic assault (the navy was less dependent on mobilising forces than the army), the second factor was the supposed Soviet submarine activity in the Baltic. For a decade the hunting of Soviet submarines transformed the navy to a force in near constant readiness with much experience of anti-submarine service in the tricky conditions of the Baltic Sea. New weapons, including anti-ship missiles were also introduced. By the end of the Cold War the navy had swung from “the Curse of the Red Arrow” to contest a Soviet dominance of the sea, a first line of defence. Ironically by that time the Soviet Union fell apart.


The Coastal Artillery

The Costal Artillery had been established in 1902. It included an elaborate string of artillery fortifications, mine stations and mobile coastal artillery units eventually with both field artillery and missiles established along sensitive areas of the Swedish coast, mostly in the southern parts. The Coastal Artillery also operated smaller naval vessels.

Although the primary mission was to engage enemy shipping it was also to work, when necessary, in conjunction with the Army.

The Coastal Artillery also included the Coastal Ranger formations established in the late 1950s – a sort of light infantry operating in the archipelago areas. They were and remain one of the more fabled groups in the entire Swedish armed forces, although today their mission has changed somewhat.

The Coastal Artillery was disbanded in 2000 and replaced with the much smaller Amphibious Corps. Virtually all of the artillery emplacements and fortifications were taken out of comission.

I could help maybe with the Coastal Jaeger part. My neighbor was in in the mid 90's, so I should be able to get some org details and weapons if you need them...

[wulfir]

[QUOTE=wulfir;741223]I could help maybe with the Coastal Jaeger part. My neighbor was in in the mid 90's, so I should be able to get some org details and weapons if you need them...

Thanks, but I think I have it pretty much covered - since KJ still is rather celebrated, it's easier to find solid info..., compared to some less renowned formations...

...besides it is best to use the P/U tabeller charts as the training organisations did not always follow the intended wartime organisation...

[wulfir]

Units changed

Unit Slot.....Name................Unit class
052...........Tgb m/42 SKPD...23 APC (Wheel)

Change:
Changed end date from 12/92 to 12/101.
Added Ksp 58 AAMG.

The Tgb m/42, also known as KP-bil, was a WWII-vintage wheeled APC that remained in service for the entire cold war up until the year 2000. It was meant to be phased out by the 1960s, but remained the mainstay APC of the 18th Brigade.


Unit Slot.....Name................Unit class
056...........Pbv 501.........122 Light Support APC

Change:
Changed end date to 12/107

The Pbv 501 was a modernised version of the old former East German BMP-1s. They were meant to replace the soft skinned transport (tgb and Bv206) in the infantry brigades. The former East German APC were cheap and meant to be a stop gap meassure until the next generation of APCs could be developed. In the end they were hardly used beyond trials, as the brigades intended to field these vehicles were disbanded in 2000. Spent most of its service time in Sweden stored in depots. "The most never used". Last one sold 2007.


Unit Slot.....Name................Unit class
414...........Bkv 151...........21 SP Artillery

Changes:

Changed name to Bkan 1A. Set end date to 12/103.

Artillerivagn 151 was the name of the prototype.
Army desigantion was Bkan 1A (Bandkanon = tracked gun).
This artillery system was slow, heavy and had an impressive rate of fire - it could empty its magazine of 14 rounds in 45 seconds. Each gun was usually acompanied by an ammo carrier, a so called "dumper". Of the planned 90 guns only 26 were built. All of them were deployed in the north of Sweden. An upgraded version known as Bkan 1C was made avaliable in the late 1980s with a stronger engine.

[wulfir]

Unit Slot.....Name................Unit class
459...........Bkv 151 Battery......156 O/M Heavy Artillery

Changes:

Changed name to Bkan 1A Battery. Set end date to 12/103.


Unit Slot.....Name................Unit class
202...........Strf 9040/56......127 Gun APC (Tracked)

Change:

Changed start date to 11/120.

This was a prototype of the CV90 family armed with the Rb56 BILL ATGM. It is very unlikely it will advance beyond trials.


Unit Slot.....Name................Unit class
049...........SSG AMOS DF.........18 Assault Gun

Unit Slot.....Name................Unit class
433...........SSG 120 AMOS.........38 SP Mortar

Unit Slot.....Name................Unit class
434...........SSG 120 STRIX........38 SP Mortar

Change:
Changed start date to 11/120 for all AMOS units.

This was a prototype of the CV90 family. Dual 120mm SP mortar system. It is very unlikely it will advance beyond trials.

[wulfir]

Formation:........Name:

131..............Mech Inf Plt 501
132..............Mech Inf At Plt 501
133..............Mech Inf Co 501

Changes:
End date changed to 12/107.
Switched from Infantry to MISC screen.

(Because of the rare use of BMP-1 APCs in Sweden these formations have been switched to the MISC screen.)

[wulfir]

Formation:........Name:

070..............SP-Mortar Co 08
215..............Assault AMOS Pl

Changes:
Start date changed to 11/120.

(Because it is highly unlikely that the AMOS system will be fielded by the Swedish armed forces.)

[wulfir]

Pansarbrigad 63

Armoured Brigade type 63 replaced the previous armoured brigade type organisations in the early 60s and remained for the rest of the cold war.

The Brigad Organisation:

HQ, Staff and Staff Coy.
Armoured Recce Company
3 Armoured Battalions
Artillery Battalion
Engineer Battalion
2 AT Companies
AA Company
Armoured Supply Battalion

Significant for this brigade organisation was the combanied arms approach, even at lower levels. Earlyer organisations had made use of pure tank battalions etc but it was usually neccessary to form all arms task forces in the field and this took time. Also, normal Swedish terrain usually limited the size of units where integrated combat was possible to company or battalion. Thus these units needed to have a mix of weapons and great flexibility.

[wulfir]

Armoured Recce Coy 63

The Brigade Recce Company organisation included:

HQ
2 Recce Platoons (Armoured)
2 Recce Platoons (Terrain vehicle)
AT Platoon
Supply half-platoon

For game purposes I have built the Brigade Recce Platoons using existing units - 496 Recon Group and 144 Mot Recon Group. These give the Platoon an accurate set-up of the actual weapons although it might be tempting to use them as infantry when in reality Recce was their primary job. Most Swedish Recce Teams are also Size 1 which are slightly inferior to size 0 units.

The AT platoon is represented by the a dual set of the existing formation 048 AT Troop Pvtgb. It provides the company with some flexibility and saves space (no need for a new formation with 4 Pvtgb 1111).

The word troop in the Swedish OOB is slightly misleading - some Swedish unit designations do not translate well to English. Here Troop is used for something in Sweden known as Tropp - basically a half-platoon.

[wulfir]

Formation:........Name:

415..............ArmBde Recce Co

Game organisation of the Armoured Brigade Recce Coy:

496 Recon Group
567 Tgb 1/2 Jeep
1416 ArmBde Recce Pl
1416 ArmBde Recce Pl
1417 ArmBde Recce Pl
1417 ArmBde Recce Pl
1048 AT Troop Pvtgb
1048 AT TRoop Pvtgb

No morale/exp bonus. This might be subject to change if motivated.
Purchase Screen 1 Armour.

Formation:........Name:

416..............AmBde Recce Pl

Game organisation:

496 Recon Group
144 Mot Recon Group
144 Mot Recon Group
54 Pbv 302
54 Pbv 302
54 Pbv 302

Recce Plt with APC. No morale/exp bonus. This might be subject to change if motivated.
Purchase Screen 1 Armour.


Formation:........Name:

417..............ArmBde Recce Pl

Game organisation:

496 Recon Group
144 Mot Recon Group
144 Mot Recon Group
567 Tgb 1/2 Jeep
567 Tgb 1/2 Jeep
567 Tgb 1/2 Jeep

Recce Plt with soft transport. No morale/exp bonus. This might be subject to change if motivated. Purchase Screen 1 Armour.

[wulfir]

Pansarbataljon 63

The Armoured Battalion of the Armoured Brigades can be described as a sort of standing Task Force - a combined arms Kampfgruppe.

Because Swedish terrain is often limiting, and earlier organisations with pure tank and infantry battalions had not been satisfactory the Armoured Battalions of the Org 63 was characterized by integration of various arms at a low level. Some parts of the battalion were transported in soft vehicles - not ideal but neccessary - there was not enough money to buy or produce tracked SP-artillery etc.

Armoured Battalion org:

HQ
Staff Coy (included command elments and 3 Recce Platoons carried in soft vehicles).
2 Tank Companies
2 Armoured Infantry Companies
Artillery Company (105mm, towed)
Supply Company (included supply elements and a Pioneer Platoon carried in Trucks).

For game purposes I have collected the Battalion platoon size support elements, including the artillery guns, in a company formation named Arm Bn Spt 63.

[cbreedon]

I am looking forward to this oob. I have always thought it needed some work. Glad you are doing it Wulfir.

[Imp]

Nice stuff Wulfir if possible would it be possible to include notes like what you just posted so we know correct usage


HQ
Staff Coy (included command elments and 3 Recce Platoons carried in soft vehicles).
2 Tank Companies
2 Armoured Infantry Companies
Artillery Company (105mm, towed)
Supply Company (included supply elements and a Pioneer Platoon carried in Trucks


Yugoslavia & Croatia are 2 OOBs I can think of that have notes.
Only viewable from encyclopedia, the first entry.

[wulfir]

Nice stuff Wulfir if possible would it be possible to include notes like what you just posted so we know correct usage

Sure, that's easy. :)

[wulfir]

Formation:........Name:

426..............Arm Bn Spt 63

Game organisation of the Armoured Battalion Support Elements:

513 Arm Inf Sec
54 Pbv 302
1427 Arm Bn Recce Pl (New Formation)
1427 Arm Bn Recce Pl (New Formation)
1427 Arm Bn Recce Pl (New Formation)
1428 Arm Pioneer Plt (New Formation)
1050 Arm Arty (Bn) (Changed formation)

Notes: The Command element transport might be changed to a Stripbv 3021 (Command version of the Pbv 302). I might need to adjust the place of or remove the 313 Arm Arty (Bn) Plt - the game reads formations from bottom to top, I've been told.


Formation:........Name:

427..............Arm Bn Recce Pl

495 Recon Group
495 Recon Group
495 Recon Group
212 LMG Team
170 AT-inf grg
569 Pltgb 903
569 Pltgb 903
569 Pltgb 903

Notes: This formation is a compromise. A Bn Recce Plt had a Platoon command element and three recce squads of each 5 men. The Platoon heavy weapons included 3 LMGs and 1 Grg. The primary purpose was however recon, not fighting. This game organisation is close to the real one in the number of platoon personell but with less firpower. All teams are size 0. Although the platoon has some bite it has no staying power - making it useful for scouting but not fighting. Many of the other OOB 066 Scout teams are size 1 and has the same weapon layout as regular infantry sections. It does also save me from creating new scout teams as I need classes for other types of scouts.


Formation:........Name:

428..............Arm Pioneer Plt

720 Arm Pioneer Sec (New Unit)
720 Arm Pioneer Sec (New Unit)
720 Arm Pioneer Sec (New Unit)
553 Heavy Truck
553 Heavy Truck
553 Heavy Truck

Notes: Pioneer Platoons were usually found within the Battalion organisation in various types of brigades and independent battalions. It was an engineer unit but Engineer Platoons were usually found in Engineer Companies. The Armoured Pioneers did not have LMGs but older HMGs with a secondary AAMG role. Lack of suitable Anti Air was somthing that plauged the Armoured Brigade org 63 for a long time.


Formation:........Name:

050..............Arm Arty (Bn)

Change: Changed the end date to 12/101.

[Mobhack]

Special "Command" versions of anything are a very bad thing to do in the game.

They have no special abilities like in other wargames (increased radios so they can be on several nets etc, say).

They do tell the human opponent that they are a priority target, though. If you spot something it is identified!. And they introduce another unit class into the OOB that has to be tracked for changes etc. as well as the regular APC or tank it is based on.

Same goes for infantry - someone gifted the WW2 Germans with nice "KPFue" special elements, so I know precisely which ones to kill first to decapitate the company command :)!. (You can also do the same when playing the British, since coy HQ use a different unit class from the normal infantry, although they are not given a specific "kill me first" name. Someting one of the third-party OOB designers slipped into my OOB, so they could have an SMG or something? - I certainly would not have done it that way, but used a standard element as coy HQ).

So if it brings nothing that the normal APC or infantry element does to the game system - simply use the regular element. Then your opponent does not get a free gift for targeting HQs.

Cheers
Andy

[wulfir]

So if it brings nothing that the normal APC or infantry element does to the game system...


This is true, it would add nothing to the game except maybe cosmetics.

[wulfir]

Formation changed


Formation................Name

017...................... Arm. Inf Pl 63

Plt organisation:

124 Arm Inf Section
124 Arm Inf Section
709 Arm Inf Section (New unit)
53 Pbv 301
53 Pbv 301
53 Pbv 301


Change: The new units 709 Arm Inf Section, 710 Arm Inf Section, 711 Arm Inf Section and 712 Arm Inf Section are all class 72 Light Mech Infantry. Identical in all stats (cost, radio code etc) to the existing 124, 125, 126 and 124 Arm Inf Sections except the weapons - the new units do not have any LMG. The Arm Inf platoon had 3 Grg but only two LMGs. Usually it was the first section that lacked the LMG as it carried mine clearance gear - but I made it the last section in the OOB - to avoid the Plt HQ being spotted by human players.

(During the cold war the Swedish army suffred from a lack of adequat number of modern small arms.)

[wulfir]

New formation


Formation................Name

441.....................Arm Eng Co 63

Company organisation:

686 Engineer Sec (New unit)
140 Recon Sec
589 Pltgb 903
570 Tgb 1/2t (jeep)
1442 Arm Eng Plt 63 (New formation)
1442 Arm Eng Plt 63 (New formation)

Notes: This formation represents the Armoured Engineer companies found in the Armoured Brigade Engineer Battalion. Each Arm Eng Bn had two Eng Coy's along with some other elements that fall outside the scope of the game. Armoured in name only, as it was transported in trucks, the company nevertheless was expected to be able to deal with some combat assignments. In reality it had a third platoon - the Machine Plt - manning certain engineer vehicles (left this plt out as the machine plt builds roads, plow snow etc)

New formation


Formation................Name

442.....................Arm Eng Pl 63

Plt organisation:

686 Engineer Sec (New unit)
686 Engineer Sec (New unit)
686 Engineer Sec (New unit)
692 Eng Spt Sec (New unit)
657 Ltgb 934 (New unit)
657 Ltgb 934 (New unit)
657 Ltgb 934 (New unit)
657 Ltgb 934 (New unit)

Notes: The Plt had four squads - three engineer sections (without heavy weapons) and one engineer support section with two LMGs and one Grg. Units 686 Engineer Sec, 687 Engineer Sec, 688 Engineer Sec and 689 Engineer Sec are all class 20 Engineer units with similar cost and equipment as existing eng units, although none have flamethrowers. Units 692 Eng Spt Sec and 693 Eng Spt Sec are class 195 Engineer Support Squad. Ltgb 934 is a medium truck, with something of a cult status that was in use between the 60s and 90s.

[wulfir]

New formation


Formation................Name

437.....................ArmBde AT Co 63

Company Org:

709 Arm Inf Section
569 Pltgb 903
1438 ATGM Sec 63 (New formation)
1438 ATGM Sec 63 (New formation)
1438 ATGM Sec 63 (New formation)
1048 AT Troop Pvtgb
1048 AT Troop Pvtgb
1439 Rifle Plt (AT)* (New formation)

Notes: Each Brigade had an AT Company. The ATGM platoon had 6 ATGM launchers and 3 Grg. The AT Platoon had 4 Pvtgb 1111. I have broken these into sections to fit all the transport and give the formation some flexibility.


New formation

Formation................Name

438.....................ATGM Sec 63

Section Org:

185 BANTAM Team
185 BANTAM Team
170 AT-inf Grg
569 Pltgb 903

Notes: Formation uses units now present in the OOB. No modifications.



New formation

Formation................Name

439.....................Rifle Plt (AT)*

Plt organisation:

125 Arm Inf Section
125 Arm Inf Section
213 Support Team (New unit)
213 Support Team (New unit)
218 8mm Ksp m/36
218 8mm Ksp m/36
657 Ltgb 934 (New unit)
657 Ltgb 934 (New unit)

Notes: The Brigade AT Coy included a bizzare rifle platoon. It had two rifle sections and two at sections but an unusual number of heavy weapons, including 4 LMGs, 4 Grgs and 2 HMGs. Unit 213 is a 5 man, size 1, support element - that might be revised as it has the LMG in slot 1. When the HMGs go out of service by 12/94 they are currently not replaced by any similar weapon.

[wulfir]

New formation

Formation................Name

440.....................ArmBde AT Co 63

Company Org

709 Arm Inf Section
569 Pltgb 903
1059 Arm SP-ARGM Plt
1059 Arm SP-ARGM Plt
1439 Rifle Plt (AT)* (New unit)


Notes: This formation "replaces" formation 437 ArmBde AT Co 63 in 1/82. I still need to find solid sources on this formation.
The BANTAM ATGM were replaced with the TOW armed Pvrbv 551 in the early 80s.

http://hem.passagen.se/pgroen/pvrbbv_2.gif

The Pvrbv 551 was a "re-used" and modified Ikv 102 or Ikv 103 Assault Gun - but heavier and with a weaker engine. The system was slow and had limited mobility. It was not overly popular with the crews but quickly filled a void in the Arm Bde org at a low cost. They were withdrawn from service in the early 2000s.

Unit changed

Unit................Name

440...................Pvrb 551

Change: End date changed from 12/120 to 12/101.

[wulfir]

The Organisation 63 Armoured Brigades were deployed to the south of Sweden where they were concentrated in the 13. Fördelningen. (Fördelning = a division size formation”), sometimes known as Pansarfördelningen (The Armoured Division).
(A Fördelning did not have the same fixed structure as a foreign division, the Swedish brigades could be exchanged depending on how the “Red Invsion” developed – compare Israeli Ugdah). Generally a Fördelning was larger and did not have the same mobility as that of foreign divisions.

13. Fördelningen included:

PB7 (7th Arm Bde),
PB8 (8th Arm Bde),
PB26 (26th Arm Bde),
4. Fördelningsartilleribataljon (”Divisional Artillery Bn”)
5. Fördelningsartilleribataljon (”Divisional Artillery Bn”)
1. Coastal Artillery Bn.
3. Coastal Artillery Bn.
31. Anti Aircraft Bn
33. Anti Aircraft Bn
Engineer and Service/Support Elements.
PB9 (9th Arm Bde),
IB46 (46th Inf Bde)

In numbers if fielded about 30 000 men, between 210-280 tanks, 500 APCs and between 120-150 artillery guns.

The primary task of this armoured fördelning was to beat back a seaborne invasion of the southern parts of Sweden.

Once the main Soviet invasion had been identified it would be committed into attack with two armoured brigades abreast. The third and fourth armoured brigade would reinforce the brigade in the first wave that met with the most success. The ambition was to as quickly as possible reach the beach area. The first 60 hours were considered to be crucial. If the Soviets managed to establish a solid bridgehead their weight of numbers would eventually tell.

Swedish local defence and infantry units were deployed in defensive positions and resistance nests along the coast but were only allowed to mine between the so called “beach road” and the sea. Other than that mines were forbidden in the extreme south of Sweden. Bridge and road demolitions could not be carried out without authorisation from higher command levels. Nothing must stop the armoured counter strike. “Get up and attack” was drummed into lower commanders. If lower commanders were for some reason not given orders they were still to attack.

The defence and the counterattack in the south rested on many uncertain factors.
Against a fully mobilised and deployed Swedish defence it was expected that the Soviets would need one to two weeks to soften the landing area and secure air supremacy – necessary ingredients for a successful seaborne invasion. But would the orders to mobilise have been issued in time?
Furthermore it was assumed that an invasion of Sweden would be a sideshow, where the Soviets deployed only a limited number of troops. Against a massive Soviet invasion across Finland into Sweden and with landings on six or more points along the eastern coast, Sweden would not have managed without massive help from the West.

The main battle tank of most Swedish Armoured Brigades was the Stridsvagn 103 aka S-tank – untested in combat it could potentially have some serious drawbacks in offensive warfare which was the intended role of the Swedish armoured brigades.

Horror Scenario:

http://www.bergrum.se/images/clip_image002_006.jpg

[wulfir]

Formation changed


Formation................Name

049....................Arm Inf Co 63

Change removed unit 053 Pvb 301 from the AT half-platoon.
These had been added as transport for the AT-inf grg teams previously included in the formation - but Company AT plt only had Pvtgb 1111's.

NOTE: It is possible the Company AT Plt were taken away with the revised Org 63M in the early 80s and reassigned to form a AT Battalion. I have yet to find solid sources on this...

[wulfir]

New formation

Formation................Name

443.....................ArmBde AA Co 63

Company organisation:

366 20mm Lv m/40-70
569 Pltgb 903
1444 ArmBde AA Tr (New formation)
1444 ArmBde AA Tr (New formation)
1444 ArmBde AA Tr (New formation)

Notes: The armoured brigade had one Anti-Aircraft company equipped with old tractor drawn 20mm AA guns. They were not adequate for their task but supposedly the only weapon system able to follow with the same speed as the armoured brigade. In the 80s the Armoured Brigades were re-equipped with SP-SAM systems (the Lvrb 701) instead of the 20mm AA guns.

New formation

Formation................Name

444.....................ArmBde AA Tr 63

Platoon Org:

366 20mm Lv m/40-70
366 20mm Lv m/40-70
366 20mm Lv m/40-70
366 20mm Lv m/40-70
366 20mm Lv m/40-70
366 20mm Lv m/40-70
547 Agri trac towing
547 Agri trac towing
547 Agri trac towing

Notes: Armoured Brigade AA Tropp. Six 20mm AA guns drawn by tractors.

[wulfir]

- Armoured Brigade 49 -

The Armoured Brigade 49 organisation replaced the Armoured Brigade type 43 organisation which had been established during WWII. The new type 49 armoured brigade organisation doubled the number of Armoured brigades from three to six – but without adding to the overall numbers of armoured vehicles, i.e. each brigade now had less.

Previously, the Armoured Brigade 43 organisation had two tank battalions (total of 181 tanks) and an armoured infantry battalion which was now reversed – the new org 49 had each brigade equipped with one tank battalion (67 tanks) and two armoured infantry battalions.

While the infantry strength and support units for the Armoured Brigades were increased, including mortars and artillery, as each brigade needed its own complement, the new organisation meant weaker brigades. The number of infantry battalions grew from three to twelve – without any increase in the numbers of APCs which meant the armoured infantry was not particualry armoured but had to make do with bicyles. This lack of armoured protection and mobility for the majority of the infantry of the Armoured Brigade was a severe drawback.

OOB:

- Armoured Brigade HQ with HQ Company
- Tank Battalion
- Armoured Infantry Battalion
- Armoured Infantry Battalion
- Armoured Special Company
- Tank Destroyer Company
- Armoured Artillery Battalion
- Armoured Mortar Company
- Armoured Anti-Aircraft Company
- Armoured Anti-Aircraft Company
- Armoured Engineer Company
- Armoured Supply Group

[wulfir]

- Tank Battalion 49 -

OOB

- Tank Bn HQ
- Tank Bn HQ Coy
…..........................Coy HQ
…..........................Communication Plt
…..........................Recce Tropp (3 Motorcycle Recce Sections)
…..........................Tank Tropp (2 light tanks, 1 heavy tank)
…..........................Pioneer Tropp (2 Pioneer sections armed with Raketgevär (Rocket AT), 2 Tgb m/42 KP Armoured Personell Carriers)
…..........................Coy Supply



- Light Tank Company
…..........................Coy HQ (incl. Tank Tropp with 2 light tanks, 1 heavy tank, Medical section, Staff element)
…..........................Light tank Plt (4 light tanks)
…..........................Light tank Plt (4 light tanks)
…..........................Heavy tank Plt (4 heavy tanks)
…..........................Storm Pioneer Tropp (2 Storm Pioneer Sections, 2 Tgb m/42 APCs).
…..........................Company Supply

- Light Tank Coy (same as above)

- Heavy Tank Coy
…..........................Coy HQ (incl Heavy Tank Tropp with 3 heavy tanks, medical sec, Staff element).
…..........................Heavy Tank Platoon (3 Heavy tanks)
…..........................Heavy Tank Platoon (3 Heavy tanks)
…..........................Heavy Tank Platoon (3 Heavy tanks)
…..........................Heavy Tank Platoon (3 Heavy tanks)
…..........................Storm Pioneer Tropp (2 Storm Pioneer Sections, 2 Tgb m/42 APCs).
…..........................Coy Supply

- ”Följekompani” (this term is hard to translate, litteraly it would mean something like ”Tag-along Company”)
…..........................Coy HQ (Staff Element, Medical Element)
…..........................”Följe” Platoon (3 Sections of each 8 men with 1 Tgb m/42 APC and 1 single 8 cm Mortar)
…..........................”Följe” Platoon (same as above)
…..........................”Följe” Platoon (same as above)
….......................... Close Anti-Tank Platoon (3 Sections of each 10 men with 1 Tgb m/42 APC and 3 Granatgevär AT-weapons).
…..........................Coy Supply

- Tank Supply Company
…..........................Coy HQ
…..........................Ammo Element
…..........................Repair Element
…..........................Fuel Element
…..........................Food Element
…..........................Medical Element
…..........................Pioneer Tropp (2 Sections of 9 mean each, 2 Tgb m/42 – the name of this unit is apparently never changed to Storm Pioneer).
…..........................Coy Supply




During the existance of the 49 org formations the Pioneer Tropp is renamed Stormpioneer Tropp and the Pioneer Sections are renamed Stormpioneer sections – except for the Pioneers found in the supply company (who also lacks Rg AT weapons). The Tgb m/42 is also equipped with twin m/36 AAMG. Exaclty when these changes come into effect can as far as I know not be determined.

In the Swedish terminology ”Tropp” is an element usually somewhat larger than a section but smaller than a platoon. I'm not sure if there is a corresponding English term? The above mentioned Pioneer/Stormpioneer Tropp exists in the regular OOB066 under the name ”StormPi Trp”. In Sweden ”Tropp” is shortened ”To”. Would using ”Trp” for this type of element be confusing – in game it would be a weak platoon...?

My ambition is to include the fighting elements of the HQ and Supply Companies in a type of Armoured Battalion Support Company formation, which would then include:

Company HQ unit
Recce Tropp
Tank Tropp
Storm Pioneer Tropp
Pioneer Tropp

The tanks equipping these battalions were initially of WWII vintage and obsolete allready by the end of WWII. The light tanks were the Swedish version of a Czech's tank used by the Germans as PzKwf 38(t) – they were later rebuilt as APCs – the Pbv301. The heavier tanks were the Swedish design Strv m/42, armed with a largely inadequate short 75mm gun. They were later to be upgrade with a new turret and a longer and more powerful 75mm weapon – the Strv 74.

Sweden was at this time looking for a foreign and more capable tank. It was hoped that the British Centurion would be possible to purchase, but the response from London was not particulary positive. A small number of tanks could maybe be made available to Sweden sometime after 1958. The French AMX-13 was instead choosen for trials. Then a sort of trade imbalance between Sweden and Great Britain led to a British surprise offer of selling Centurion tanks. The first arrived in May 1953. This decision irritated the French and a high ranking Swedish officer, the army commander Ehrensvärd, who figured the lower price of the AMX-13 would have yielded more tanks. The AMX-13 was again considered but in the end Sweden went for moderninsing the older m/42 tank. A large number of French 155mm howitzers was bought as a sort of compensation for the failure of the AMX deal. The gun was in Swedish service named Haubits F, and nicknamed ”Fransyskan” (roughly ”The French Lady”) - it was later to be used by the artillery units of the armoured brigades.

[dmnt]

In the Swedish terminology ”Tropp” is an element usually somewhat larger than a section but smaller than a platoon. I'm not sure if there is a corresponding English term? The above mentioned Pioneer/Stormpioneer Tropp exists in the regular OOB066 under the name ”StormPi Trp”. In Sweden ”Tropp” is shortened ”To”. Would using ”Trp” for this type of element be confusing – in game it would be a weak platoon...?


I believe it is what Finns call puolijoukkue, "half-a-platoon." The Swedish wikipedia entry (http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tropp) says "Oftast motsvarande en halv pluton eller 2-3 grupper." Maybe tropp could be translated as subplatoon or half platoon?

In my experience the non-fighting platoons such as supply platoons add little to gaming experience if at all. Game mechanics (AI especially) seems to be working better when SPAA-units are not mingled among tank platoons but bought separately. AI does not understand what it is buying as well as a human does. In this game some realism is sacrificed for playability.

For real world level of realism, check out this game (http://www.theonion.com/video/ultrarealistic-modern-warfare-game-features-awaiti,14382/) :smirk:

[wulfir]

Maybe tropp could be translated as subplatoon or half platoon?

Maybe...

[Suhiir]

For real world level of realism, check out this game (http://www.theonion.com/video/ultrarealistic-modern-warfare-game-features-awaiti,14382/) :smirk:

I played that game during the 1991 beta test, can't say it's changed much.

[wulfir]

- Armoured Infantry Battalion 49 -

HQ

- Bn HQ Coy
….................Communications Plt
….................Recce Plt (2 APC, 1 light vehicle, 1 Jägartropp of two 9 men sections, 1 Jägartropp of two 9 men sections with bikes, Armoured Car Tropp (two m/40 armoured cars)
….................Company Supply

- Armoured Infantry Company
….................Coy HQ (1 APC, Close AT Section (grg) with bikes.
….................Arm Inf Plt (3 Sections, 1 Spt Section with bikes)
….................Arm Inf Plt (same as above)
….................Arm Inf Plt (same as above)
….................Support Plt (MG-Tropp of two MG Sections with bikes, Mortar Tropp with two 8cm Mortars, one truck and a FOO Team)
….................Company Supply

- Armoured Infantry Company (same as above)
- Armoured Infantry Company (same as above)

- Armoured Support Company
….................Coy HQ (incl Truck)
….................Anti-Tank Tropp (1 APC, Close Anti-Tank Section, 1 Armoured Car, StormPioneer Section with 10 men and another APC).
….................Anti-Tank Tropp (same as above)
….................Infantry Gun Platoon (4 Infantry Guns, 2 Tgb m/42L)
….................Mortar Plt (FOO Section, 3 Mortars, 3 trucks)
….................Storm Pioneer Platoon (2 APCs, 3 StormPi Sections)
….................Company Supply

- Armoured Supply Company
….................Coy HQ
….................Ammunition Element
….................Repairs Element
….................Fuel Element
….................Food Element
….................Medical Element
….................Coy Supply


This organisation, with its lack of adequate numbers of APCs, had about the same level of protection and mobility as leg infantry units. It is a curious development that did continue into the next organisation, the Armoured Brigade 58...

[shahadi]

[QUOTE=wulfir;828220]
In my experience the non-fighting platoons such as supply platoons add little to gaming experience if at all. Game mechanics (AI especially) seems to be working better when SPAA-units are not mingled among tank platoons but bought separately. AI does not understand what it is buying as well as a human does. In this game some realism is sacrificed for playability.

What I've played with, to simulate realism, is to coax the AI into attacking Supply units, etc, by dramatically increasing their cost value from say 20 for a truck to 520. Now with this cost premium the player must defend the non-fighting units because the AI will go after those targets.

-------

[scorpio_rocks]

What I've played with, to simulate realism, is to coax the AI into attacking Supply units, etc, by dramatically increasing their cost value from say 20 for a truck to 520. Now with this cost premium the player must defend the non-fighting units because the AI will go after those targets.

Does this actually work? Does the AI make targeting choices based on target cost? or will it target the unit that is more of a threat?, closer?, easiest to kill?, in its target priority (ie inf v inf, AT v Tank, etc)?

[Mobhack]

Points cost is nothing to do with AI targeting.

Relative importance is - so HQ, FOO, MRLs, SAMs, ATGMs, A/T guns, ammo units, engineers are all units that the AI will prefer given an array of choices to plot arty on.

See also the section on "AI interest" in the Game Guide release history section.

The priorities are different for direct fire plotting. Best target to shoot at differs for a sniper from an SP_ATGM. Planes prioritise FLAK.

But that sort of stuff is "duh" obvious. Splatting the battalion HQ if its spotted is a no-brainer. Liking ammo units is ditto - since only the human uses these to feed critical units and they tend therefore to be situated close by an important asset (SAM, ATGM, artillery). Engineers are good to kill, if its defending as that preserves field defences (and they tend to be deployed for a breach, or to be heading towards such).

[shahadi]

What I've played with, to simulate realism, is to coax the AI into attacking Supply units, etc, by dramatically increasing their cost value from say 20 for a truck to 520. Now with this cost premium the player must defend the non-fighting units because the AI will go after those targets.

Does this actually work? Does the AI make targeting choices based on target cost? or will it target the unit that is more of a threat?, closer?, easiest to kill?, in its target priority (ie inf v inf, AT v Tank, etc)?

Points cost is nothing to do with AI targeting.

Relative importance is - so HQ, FOO, MRLs, SAMs, ATGMs, A/T guns, ammo units, engineers are all units that the AI will prefer given an array of choices to plot arty on.

See also the section on "AI interest" in the Game Guide release history section.

I got ahead of myself in my reply, no defense really; just was at my son's karate dujo - being a parent sometimes the multi-tasking thing does not always work. To proceed, I have dramatically increased the cost of a unit so that the player will use that unit in a realistic way. As I've done in the Red Line Syria series (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=49921&highlight=Syria). For instance, not using the Osprey ferrying troops as a gunship, or buying a handful of trucks, rush them forward so that an ATGM will expend a shot on a cheap truck, and there are countless other examples.

Also, another unit that the AI will prioritize is the machine gun: light, medium, or heavy. And, I've talked about making separate formations of machine guns so that I can field individual units rather than sections, admittedly, primarily for maneuver and fire suppression concerns, rather than AI targeting (Although, if you have two MG targets, that's one more the AI has to target.)

"I Stand Accused," most notably by Issac Hayes, but some may remember the song of the same title by the immortal Jerry Butler.

------

[Suhiir]

While point costs have zip to do with AI targeting it can still be very useful to alter the value of support units with the editor, make sure you mention this in the scenario notes so the player is aware these are high value targets they want to protect.

[shahadi]

While point costs have zip to do with AI targeting it can still be very useful to alter the value of support units with the editor, make sure you mention this in the scenario notes so the player is aware these are high value targets they want to protect.

Yes, this is an important point to relay to the player of your scenario.

[Mobhack]

For the human in order to protect something - that is a perfectly valid approach, e.g. in a convoy mission to jack up the points of the trucks so he does not want to lose those. (You could go the other way, though I cant think of an example of reducing the cost).

But remember to tell him about it in the briefing!.

[Suhiir]

I have one experimental campaign scenario where I reduced the cost of armed enemy units to 0 (zero), since units can't have a negative cost I needed to use reverse Polish logic and you actually lose this scenario if you have a significant score at the end, and "win" by having the lowest possible score.

[wulfir]

- Gotland -

"We could not defend it at any cost, but we had to put a price on it"


For much of the cold war the land component of the Swedish forces deployed on Gotland showed some differences to those on the mainland. The most powerful formation located there was the 18th Brigade, aka the 'Gotland Brigade'. Initially established as an infantry brigade some intrepid officers managed to have older types of AFVs and APCs - which were being replaced in the mainland units - shipped to Gotland.

The idea was that an invader (the Russians) would come by air or sea and in the initial stages of an invasion older armour was better than no armour - especially true for the Tgb m/42 KP, considered a stop gap meassure in the 1960s yet it had to soldier on until after the cold war.

https://lantvarnet.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/4-52-21.jpg


Older types of tanks and AFVs were also deployed to Gotland. Late cold war there were Centurion tanks but never any Strv 103.

After the Cold war Gotland units were supplied with more modern AFVs like the Leopard, Strf 9040 and Pbv 302 - but only for a short time until the island was almost entirely demilitarized following the demise of the so called 'invasion defence'.



I have been tinkering with my version of OOB066 and adding formations of the hybrid Gotland Brigade. Not sure where I should place them, maybe under MISC as they should only be used for scenarios involving Gotland. Anything placed on Gotland was considered to be unavailable for the mainland in case of war...

[Suhiir]

Maybe place them in the normal locations but give them formation names like "Obs ..." (obliterate) or "Got ..." (Gotland).
Or maybe what I did with US Navy aircraft/helos and add a "*" to the unit name if they're alternate units that can be used in standard formations.

[wulfir]

Maybe, the differences are not all that big. Pbat G (Arm Bn Gotland) was somewhat larger at first - as it was a hybrid organisation, basically they added two tank companies to the existing infantry organisation along with the older APCs. It also fielded an extra infantry platoon carried in trucks - a unit that did not exit in equivelent units on the mainland.

Pbat G and and other units on Gotland used some older kit longer than on the mainland...

...I wonder if it's easier to add an information text. That way not much needs to be added, most formations already exist in the game as it is.

[Suhiir]

Assuming people can find, and bother to read, the info text that sounds like the best bet.

[wulfir]

You can add text information that show up in the purchase screen - although I think many players will use all kinds of "creative" formation mixes if given the chance, regardless of what some notes say..., especially in PBEM where everyone seems to always play with top kit.

[wulfir]

- Local Defence Units -

During the Cold War Sweden organised a large number of units for defence of important objectives or areas.

In MBT terms these units would be unsexy - they had older equipment, limted moblility and were staffed with older conscripts - but they made up more than half of the overall infantry strength, and in case of war they were likely to be the units first into action.

I was thinking of using the various Guards classes for these type of units, although they were not Guards in the international meaning. Might be confusing, but these classes are largely untapped in the OOB and I'm going to need all the others as Sweden in the 1980s had several other infantry organisations in use at the same time...

[DRG]

take a look at swede the photo used for unit 51 in 9.1.................

[wulfir]

9,1 is out? Wow, I had missed that...!
Nice picture, btw... :)

[DRG]

Yep. I didn't know it at the time but I'm told I was having a heart attack when I was building the x.0 installers ( I WAS feeling a bit odd at the time) and the day after I built the x.1 installers I had a stroke . Andy had a heart attack and triple bypass about 5 years ago and Fred Chlanda had a stroke around 1999. Apparently modding SP is bad for your health. :re:

Don

[Suhiir]

Apparently modding SP is bad for your health. :re:

Don

It's definite that it's bad for your sanity.

[wulfir]

I can relate...

I don't know how many times I've restarted this little project..., hard to get it right...

[wulfir]

- Post Cold War Special Forces -

After the Cold War Sweden organised a new type of Special Forces. There had been light infantry formations before, but they were more intended to function in a WW3 environment and were not suited to the needs in the 1990s.

SSG ("Special Protection Group") was established in 1994. Little about this unit was known, most is secret. It was however staffed by officers only (unusual for the Swedish conscript defence force) and it was used on operations in Africa (Op Artemis, Congo) and Afghanistan (ISAF). In merged with another SF unit - the SIG - in 2011 and was renamed SOG.

SIG ("Special Intel Group") was established in 2007 and was originally established as the FJS IK ("Parachute School Action Company"). This unit had a stronger focus on intel gathering (traditionally the role of the Swedish parachute units). In 2011 it was merged with the SSG and renamed SOG.

SOG ("Special Operations Group") Was established in 2011 and is still in use.

Little is known about the actual size and organisation of this formation. Supposedly they operate in 4 man groups ("patrols") - I plan to copy simlar SF units from other OOBs.

The SOG is supposed to cover a bunch of missions that fall outside the scope of the game - but a few capabilities they are meant to bring are of the kind that could motivate their inclusion in the OOB.

[wulfir]

Could any of these photos be of use in the game?

19th Regiment, early 1960s. Not supersexy maybe, but they have no copyright problems as they come from my family...



http://40.media.tumblr.com/a8f4085e6bb3500db2c357e0afdefbc0/tumblr_nqbcochrL61u8xigto1_1280.jpg

http://40.media.tumblr.com/a0be631a058eb54a67a9975d8e5e1173/tumblr_nqbcochrL61u8xigto2_1280.jpg

http://41.media.tumblr.com/2ac9125c70891553b147ee55bce3322b/tumblr_nqbcochrL61u8xigto3_1280.jpg

http://40.media.tumblr.com/19ad9c3281161c1055bee11dcd148c26/tumblr_nqbcochrL61u8xigto4_1280.jpg

[DRG]

I will find a place for them. Already have the RR done........what unit would that be?? I don't think it's in the OOB's

Don

[wulfir]

The photos are from my dad's and possibly my uncles recruit service with I 19, aka Norrbotten Regiment or 19th Infantry Regiment.

(In Sweden a "Regiment" is a traning depot. Back then the 19th organised company and battalion size infantry units for the Norrbotten Brigade a unit meant to meet the Red Advance coming through northern Finland. The Brigade was also known as the 19th Infantry Brigade, later 19th Arctic Brigade, and when I was there in the mid 90s it was known as Mechanized Brigade 19, the brigade was disbanded 2004 but I 19 still exists...)

I figure a photo or two could be used for regular infantry around the 50s, 60s and 70s, should there be a need for some variation. The anti tank piece already has better pictures in the game, IMHO.

I threw them up here only because they have no copyright issues. Use if wanted, or leave them.

[DRG]

I meant what unit in the game OOB's is that RR.... Is it the 90mm Pvpj 1110 ??

[DRG]

Going through that OOB looking for the RR I noticed the IKV assualt guns and I was SURE I had redone those a year or two back but I can't find them....weird how the mind plays memory tricks sometimes. I distinctly remember finding a primo top view to work from and I can clearly picture the Icon but so far no luck finding it

Don

[wulfir]

I meant what unit in the game OOB's is that RR.... Is it the 90mm Pvpj 1110 ??

Yep...

[wulfir]

Regarding engineers in various OOBs (both games) - they sometimes, but seldom, exist in company formations - is there a reason for this?

[DRG]

How does..... because the guy who wrote the OOB didn't set them up that way....... ?

If you have a company structure, I'll put them in but from my POV if there are no engineers in companies maybe it's because the Swedes don't use them that way

As for other nations.... the same thing applies but it may also be that "engineers" in many armies do engineering more than combat assault... and for that task buying by platoons works for most players

It has only ever been brought up once in 2 decades....and that was today:D

[DRG]

IDK about.."they sometimes, but seldom, exist in company formations"

that's a bit more than "seldom"

MBT
NationName NationID formname formtype
Poland 2 Mot Engineer Co 2
Israel 4 Arm'd Eng Grp 2
Israel 4 Arm'd Eng Grp 2
Iran 10 Engineer Co 2
Iran 10 Engineer Co 2
China 14 Engineer Co 2
China 14 Engineer Co + 2
Gulf States 16 Engineer Co 2
Iraq 17 ILAV Eng Co 2
South Vietnam 24 Engineer Co 2
Canada 30 Mech Eng Coy+ 2
Canada 30 Motor Eng Coy 2
Canada 30 Mech Eng Coy 2
Italy 34 Mot Engineer Co 2
Italy 34 Mech Eng Co 2
Green 42 Engineer Co 2
Germany 44 Armour Engr Co 2
Germany 44 Armour Engr Co 2
Germany 44 MRV Engr Kp 2
Argentina 45 Engineer Co 2
Cyprus 47 Mech Eng Co 2
Cyprus 47 Engineer Co 2
Brazil 48 Engineer Co 2
Cuba 49 Engineer Co 2
Cuba 49 Mot Engineer Co 2
Cuba 49 Mech Eng Co 2
Switzerland 53 Mot Engineer Co 2
Angola 56 Engineer Co 2
Chile 59 Engineer Co 2
Nigeria 61 Engineer Co 2
Saudi Arabia 64 Engineer Co 2
Sudan 67 Engineer Co 2
Indonesia 71 Engineer Co 2
South Yemen 76 Engineer Co 2
Yemen 77 Engineer Co 2
Eritrea 78 Engineer Co 2
UN 80 Engineer Co 2
Ecuador 82 Engineer Co 2
El Salvador 83 Engineer Co 2
Nicaragua 84 Engineer Co 2
Peru 85 Engineer Co 2
Uganda 90 Engineer Co 2
Uruguay 91 Engineer Co 2
Paraguay 92 Engineer Co 2


WW2
NationName NationID formname formtype
France 6 Sec Engins Inf 2
France 6 Sec Eng Chass 2
Vichy France 8 Sec Eng Chass 2
Soviet Union 11 Mot Engineer Co 2
Soviet Union 11 Engineer Co 2
USA 12 Cbt Eng Co 2
USA 12 Armd Eng Co 2
Hungary 38 Engineer Co 2
Romania 39 Engineer Co 2
Romania 39 Engineer Co 2
Romania 39 Engineer Co 2
Thailand 41 Engineer Co 2

and that's just the ones with 'eng ' in their title so the German SturmPionierKp isn't on that list

[wulfir]

If you have a company structure, I'll put them in but from my POV if there are no engineers in companies maybe it's because the Swedes don't use them that way...

There are so many (some with slight differences) I get a headache from just trying to piece them together. Some might be relevant for the game, many with construction type assignments are not.

I thought maybe it was a question of balance, a way to reduce OOB clutter, or a sort of game decision on companies that can be expected to be divided up on operations...

[DRG]

If you have a company structure, I'll put them in but from my POV if there are no engineers in companies maybe it's because the Swedes don't use them that way...

There are so many (some with slight differences) I get a headache from just trying to piece them together. Some might be relevant for the game, many with construction type assignments are not.

I thought maybe it was a question of balance, a way to reduce OOB clutter, or a sort of game decision on companies that can be expected to be divided up on operations...

Nope.....they were added or not based on who wrote the OOB and more importantly....who mentioned that whatever nation is missing them...like I said why there aren't engineer coys in every OOB is a matter of who wrote it and if they weren't included and still aren't included then nobody mentioned they are missing and would be useful.

But I'm betting there are more in the game than show up in those two lists

[wulfir]

that's a bit more than "seldom"


Heh, that's more than I would have guessed.

[DRG]

If you want them in the Swede OOB I can guess they are organised like normal infantry .... but I'm guessing most players pick a plt here and there otherwise this would have come up before now

[wulfir]

If you want them in the Swede OOB...

In the future maybe, I'm tinkering with a custom OOB for my own use but I have plenty of research to do still..., but I'd like to keep it in line with the others in the OOB. Any guidlines on anti-tank mines as a close assault weapon for engineer squads?


but I'm guessing most players pick a plt here and there otherwise this would have come up before now

I'm pretty sure most players buy a platoon here and there for assault missions, when they need to clear mines..., for anything else regular infantry is better...

[Mobhack]

Engineers are really only relevant in the assault scenario for obstacle removal. A few may be handy if the opposition regularly uses cluster mines or bomblets in other battle types, but really they are a specific tool you only take out of the toolbox in the assault for most folks.

Plus they are usually lacking in infantry ranged combat weapons - often no LMG, and with SMG as a primary weapon. Since engineering skills cost points then if armed as a rifle section then more expensive than the riflemen, especially if no obstacles need clearance.

[wulfir]

Engineers are really only relevant in the assault scenario for obstacle removal.

You are right, but I sometimes like to use less capable/less cost efficient forces - not particulary smart I guss, but it can be fun.

Normally I just buy an infantry company, keep the HQ and delete the rifle platoons, buy engineers instead and use the cross attach screen...

What about adding uncommon or geograpically limited infantry/armour type formations to the MISC purchase screen?

[Mobhack]

Why would we do that add yet more stuff to maintain (and for rivet-counters to nitpick about) if there was next to no chance anyone actually would use it?

If you have some weird thing you regularly use - then make yourself a new formation in your own custom OOB, its not that difficult to do!. Its why I created Mobhack after all.

[wulfir]

...its not that difficult to do!. Its why I created Mobhack after all.

The stock OOB is good enough.

I'm building my own for fun - only it's giving me gray hair.
I can use some advice - things like vehicle stats, unit pricing, general platoon organisation...

[DRG]

Unit pricing comes from the cost calc so after you are done ( or while you are working on it from time to time ) run the OOB cost calculator for that OOB and it will give you a unit cost based on all the same criteria used for all the OOB's

[wulfir]

Don,

The MISC screen - are there any drawbacks to placing infantry/armour formations there?

Infantry leaders will still get infantry stats?

[Mobhack]

Don,

The MISC screen - are there any drawbacks to placing infantry/armour formations there?

Infantry leaders will still get infantry stats?

The misc screen has no effect other than where its shown for buying. Its used for odds and ends, like trucks and ammo carriers but can have anything else deemed to be rare like experimental tank formations or whatever.

[dmnt]

Swedish APCs:

Swedish defence forces (Försvarsmakten) finally have informative pages about the equipment.

One thing I noticed is that the Patria APCs (XA-180, Patgb 203A, Ptgb 360 AMV) all have a carry capacity of 12 each where as Försvarsmakten lists 3 crew (driver, commander and gunner) and 7 (203A) or 8 (360 AMV) troops to transport[1][2]. However the formations where these are used would need adjusting as well because the formations are built on the capacity of 12 passengers / vehicle. The carry capacity issue is not included in the modifications below.

Patgb 360 AMV
The main thing however is the Patgb 360 AMV weapons:
Försvarsmakten lists following options:

Beväpning: Vapenstation 01 med 7,62mm kulspruta eller 12,7 mm tung kulspruta eller 40mm granatspruta

Weapons: Weapons station 01 (Kongsberg Protector) with 7.62mm MG or 12.7 mm HMG or 40mm AGL

Vagnen är bestyckad med en Vapenstation 01, där olika vapenalternativ kan monteras. Vanligtvis används tung kulspruta modell 88 (KSP 88). KSP 88 har 12,7 mm i kaliber. Stationens sensorer är högteknologiska och har både dag och mörkersikten.

Vehicle is equipped with Weapons station 01, where different weapons can be attached. Usual one is the heavy machine gun model 88 (KSP 88). KSP 88 has caliber 12.7mm. Station's sensors are high tech and have both day and night scopes.

As far as I have been able to investigate, the turret is the same version or newer than the one in Finnish Patria 360 AMV. The numbers below are copied from Finnish version.
Listed weight [1] is 28-30 tons.

MODIFY
Unit 067 - Patgb 360 AMV
Stabiliser: 5
Fire control: 20
Range finder: 22
Weight: 28

Should weapon 051 be made autocannon class or copied to one with that class as 360 AMV can target helicopters? (Griffon 8100TD hovercraft is the only other vehicle using that weapon)

ADD
Copy of unit 067 - Patgb 360 AMV
Radio: 91
Weapon 1: 021 - 40mm Mk19 GL
Stabiliser: 5
Fire control: 20
Range finder: 22
Weight: 28

ADD
Copy of unit 067 - Patgb 360 AMV
Radio: 91
Weapon 1: 122 - Ksp 58 CMG
Stabiliser: 5
Fire control: 20
Range finder: 22
Weight: 28

Ksp90 (SAW) may also be added but I can't see much added value in the game for including that.

REMOVE
Unit 070 - AMV Patria IFV
Unit 354 - AMV Patria TOW
AFAIK these 30mm autocannon versions are only prototypes offered to Sweden, not purchased. No references anywhere on Swedish military pages.


About RWS:[2]

Vapenstation 01 är en gyrostabiliserad plattform för fjärrstyrd riktning och avfyring av kulspruta 90, kulspruta 58, kulspruta 88 eller granatspruta 92. Vapenstationen riktas i sida och höjd samt avfyras inifrån det bärande fordonet med hjälp av en avfyringsenhet med bildskärm samt ett riktdon. Riktmedlen består av separata sikteskameror för dagsljus och mörker samt ett kombinerat laseravståndsinstrument för avståndsmätning och utpekning av mål. Riktmedlen kan användas för observation och utpekning eller för inriktning av vapenstationen både mot stillastående och rörliga mål och oberoende av om det bärande fordonet är stillastående eller under gång. Vapenstationen är stabiliserad i både sida och höjd och kan därför användas för skjutning under gång. Stabiliseringen kompenserar automatiskt för fordonets rörelser i sida, höjd och lutning och håller på så sätt kvar vapenstationen i den riktning som skytten väljer med hjälp av riktdonet.


Vapenstation 01 is a gyro stabilized platform for remote controlled aiming and firing of machine gun 90, machine gun 58, machine gun 88 or AGL 92. The remote weapon station is controlled and fired from the inside of the vehicle with the help of a display unit and a controller. The instruments consist of separate cameras for daylight and dark as well as a combined laser rangefinder for distance measurement and targeting. The instruments can be used for observation and measuring or for targeting the weapon station both against stationary and moving targets and regardless of whether the vehicle is stationary or moving. The weapon station is stabilized on both axis and can therefore be used for shooting during movement. The stabilization automatically compensates for the vehicle's lateral, vertical and tilt movements, thus retaining the weapon station in the direction chosen by the shooter with the aid of the actuator.


Patgb 203 B
An upgrade from Patgb 203 A[3]

RENO Pansarterrängbil 203
* Modifiering till Patgb 203B genom flera tekniska ordrar.
* Genomförs 2016-2019.
* Omfattar bland annat att ersätta 20mm akan med Vapenstation 01.


Upgrading Pansarterrängbil 203
* Modification to Patgb 203B with multiple technical changes.
* Implemented 2016-2019.
* Includes replacing 20mm akan (20mm AC) with Vapenstation 01 (RWS).


Should have VIRSS x 2[4]
Bilen har också sex stycken rökkastare monterade på chassit.
Vehicle has also six smoge grenade launchers mounted on the chassis.
Listed weigth is 18.5-23 tons[4]

MODIFY: 062 - Patgb 203 A
End date: 12/119
EW: 4
Weight: 19

ADD: Patgb 203 B, three versions
Copy of unit 062 - Patgb 203 A
Start date: 1/117
Radio: 90
Vision: 40
Weapon 1: 021 - 40mm Mk19 GL
or
Weapon 1: 051 - 12.7mm M2HB HMG
or
Weapon 1: 122 - Ksp 58 CMG
Stabiliser: 5
Fire control: 20
Range finder: 22
Weight: 19

[1]https://www.forsvarsmakten.se/sv/information-och-fakta/materiel-och-teknik/mark/pansarterrangbil-360/
[2]https://www.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:541327/FULLTEXT01.pdf p. 24
[3]http://soff.se/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/150203-Arm%C3%A9.pdf p. 64-66
[4]https://www.forsvarsmakten.se/sv/information-och-fakta/materiel-och-teknik/mark/pansarterrangbil-203-a/

[wulfir]

Been doing some work on my own OOB66.

I'd like some suggestions on a small problem I have:

Back in the day (early 1960s) there was a local defence battalion organisation called Cykelskyttebataljon 61 ("Bicyle Rifle Bn 61").

The rifle company HQ section of this organisation included a 'sharpshooter patrol' that doubled as a 'observation patrol'. Normally Forward Observers in Sweden are termed E-ledare, so I'm guessing this sharpshooter/observation patrol was more of a recon asset.

It was 4 man strong.

I thought I would make a 4 man recon team to represent this type of unit. What would be a resonable weapon configuration/ammo loadout for such a unit be? Also how many points should such a unit cost?

I don't know exaclty what type of weapons, number of scopes etc they would have had. The troops would have been older conscripts with older kit...

[scorpio_rocks]

my guess would be rifle or SMG with 60 HE, Hand grenade 8 (2 each), and perhaps sniper rifle with 30 rounds.


As for points, always best to let the OOB Cost Calculator Utility do it's thing and come up with a point cost.

[DRG]

ALWAYS run the OOB through the points calculator after creating units. It's the only way to get a consistent unit cost