Nub Bash 2010 - Late Age - Completed- Victor: Atlantis

[Corvus]

***NOTICE***
Game ended due to mutual agreement.


First off, I am a completely new player. If I screw up in setting up my first game, I hope someone will be kind enough to point out what an idiot I am. The game is open to all players, new or veteran.

Age = Late Age
Map = TBD (Ogre is currently the leader)
Turn speed = 24 hour quickturn to start off should be fine. Might be extended as time progresses.
Number of players = 8-10 minimum 14 Max Possibly higher if there's enough interest.
Mods = CBM 1.6 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=43949
Victory = Last man standing
Diplomacy = Strongly encouraged to abide by it, but its not a set rule. Backstab to your hearts content if that's your thing.
Connection = Direct connect with Email notify
House rules = None, feel free to suggest, but I probably won't enforce any. Although I would like to ask people try interesting strats, especially vets (I don't fancy get steamrolled right off the bat , heh) this is not an enforced rule though, just a suggestion.
AI = None
Gold, provinces, resources and etc. = LA defaults. Up for debate though.
Hall of fame = 15
Renaming = On
Research = Difficult
Magic sites = 40
Independents = Default
Graphs = On

Players
Corvus(Me) - Ulm
Verjigorm - Bogarus
Ossa - R'lyeh AI
iamofage - Jomon AI
Kupiko - Marignon AI
PAR - Utgård AI
Pablomatic - Pythium AI
Septimius Severus - Atlantis
Herr Heimlich - Mictlan AI


Endgame diversity mod CBM compatible: More then enough http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showpost.php?p=735416&postcount=71

[Frozen Lama]

Just a friendly notice. *Almost* all games organized on this forum use llamaserver. if you are aware of this cool, but just in case you have not heard of it, i strongly recommend using llamaserver's PBEM server. it is what the vast majority of players are used to and it is much easier

[Corvus]

I'll keep that in mind for the future. Is there something inherently wrong with direct connect?

[Frozen Lama]

no nothing at all. its just that 90% or more of the players here use it and don't use direct connnect. most people prefer it.

[Verjigorm]

I'll take Bogarus.

Direct Connect is usually bad because everyone nowadays has a dynamic IP address. If you have a static IP address or URL then you're cool, but DC fails when your IP address changes.

You can use www.llamaserver.net (http://www.llamaserver.net) for PBEM which works quite well. Turn notifications come through your email and all you need to know is a tiny bit of file manipulation.

[Corvus]

I've been told dom3minions has a very static IP and has been up and had the same IP longer then llama, matryx and the wiki have been around, so no worries. People who wish to have email notification of turns, or who want turns emailed to them may request it, we can accommodate both. So if you want to play the game by email you can, But default will be direct connect.

[Ossa]

I'd like to go with Ryleth

[Peacekeeper]

ill take a spot as Atlantis.

[iamofage]

Would like to take Jomon please

[legolasjrt]

i will take a pangea, but, only play for PBEM.

[earcaraxe]

Hi!

I would like to take Mictlan and PBEM.

[Corvus]

I would like to ask a favor of the people who have requested PBEM style. Would receiving turns by PBEM be adequate? Could you turn in your turns by direct-connect? I have been told setting up a game to do both at the same time is possible, but its never been done. The direct connection cannot be told to "see" incoming email turns. So emailed turns either have to not show up on the direct-connect display but the game still hosts when all turns are in, or the direct connect has to be taken down and put back up on a regular basis to force it to see all of the turned in turns.

To be blunt it would be a bit of a headache, and it would be much easier if you could turn it in by direct connect.

[iamofage]

I would like to ask a favor of the people who have requested PBEM style. Would receiving turns by PBEM be adequate? Could you turn in your turns by direct-connect? I have been told setting up a game to do both at the same time is possible, but its never been done. The direct connection cannot be told to "see" incoming email turns. So emailed turns either have to not show up on the direct-connect display but the game still hosts when all turns are in, or the direct connect has to be taken down and put back up on a regular basis to force it to see all of the turned in turns.

To be blunt it would be a bit of a headache, and it would be much easier if you could turn it in by direct connect.

Direct connect might give you more headache though. We can try direct connect first, but there are a few reasons that PBEM is better.

1. Direct connection requires the host to have his computer up constantly to maintain server.

2. Dynamic IP and firewall issues are a pain in the butt sometimes unless you use a proxy LAN server and even then you may need to forcebind IP to your proxy IP.

3. PBEM using Llama server is much easier to host and managed, and PBEM doesn't require the person to have internet all the time while he wants to play. From what I hear some people can't afford monthly payment internet, so they just play their turn at home then send the files through email at a library or internet cafe.

[Corvus]

While all of the above points are valid, I am not hosting the game, I'm just running it. Its being hosted on a server geared to run games with no problems. I've made doubly sure no one should have problems connecting, and as for the last, that's why I'm offering the PBEM alternative, I'm merely asking, if possible and convenient, that turns be turned in by direct connect. I am in no way stopping or saying don't PBEM.

[earcaraxe]

First: thanks for organizing this, Corvus.

I guess I could try to turn them in by direct connect, but im not sure.

We tried a direct connect game not long ago with one of my friends (between our computers), and there was some problem with my firewall or router or whatever (I dont know much about that stuff). All in all we couldnt fix it. Its likely I might be unable to play if PBEM is not an option.

So I'd much prefer llamaserver and PBEM, tho I understand its your game and I'm a guest here, so its just a telling of my preferences.

[Corvus]

Then I suggest you try out one of the vs ai games here to test, since its the same server we'll be using. If you can connect to one of the generated games you can connect to mine.
http://www.dom3minions.com/HostedGames.htm

And there is a link
http://game.dom3minions.com/how-to.html
with step-by-step instructions of how to connect to it.

If you don't want to play the game out just set yourself to ai in options.

[earcaraxe]

thanks!

I tried it, but when I click connect after having "game.dom3minions.com" typed in it totally freezes, I have to cold-reset my computer. any ideas?

[earcaraxe]

success!

I had to disable my firewall.

[Corvus]

Aah good, if anyone else has trouble connecting, try 70.36.184.129 instead of game.dom3minions.com

[earcaraxe]

Dear Corvus and guys!

I would like to withdraw from this game.
I wish u all much enjoyment in this. Sorry for the inconvenience.

[Kupiko]

Hi i'd love to join as marignon. PBEM as well please.

[Peacekeeper]

im going to have to pull out of this one too. sorry guys.

[PAR]

hi can i join as utguard

cheers

[Corvus]

Unless someone has an objection the map will be either Cradle of Dominions if its ten people, if more sign up in the day after we hit ten, it'll be Orania.

[Pablomatic]

Ok, I can handle one more game, and I want to try an LA era one. I am currently involved in two MP games, but have no other MP experience. One of those should be a short affair (only 4 players) so I can add this one.

I'll take LA Pythium if you'll have me.

My vote is for using the Ogre map, as it can handle many players and is really cool IMNSHO.

[Pablomatic]

Oh, and I will play by e-mail.

[Corvus]

I assume you mean this map http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=37672

Tell you what, get 2 more players to vote for it and I'll switch to it. If anyone else wants to propose a map, provide a link, and get votes for it, most votes before we start wins, players are free to change votes whenever they want.

[Septimius Severus]

It is good to see another noob friendly game that encourages exploration by players. I also always liked Ballbarians AOM Ogre, though it may be too big for a small number of players. And I like the direct connect option, would work great for me since I'm in a team game via direct connect as well. If you will have me, I'd like join and to experiment with Agartha or Atlantis. I'm an intermediate level player, though somewhat noobish. If I am too experienced for the game though, I will back out.

[Pablomatic]

If someone feels inclined, please explain to me what "direct connection" is. Perhaps I can take advantage of that too.

Also, for my part I vote to let Sempronius, and other intermediate players join.

I do think that there need to be at least two underwater nations, if there are any at all, to avoid giving a single water nation a huge advantage.

[Corvus]

It says in the OP that all players are welcome =/

Direct connect is where instead of emailing and receiving turns by email, you open dominions 3 and click on network, then join existing dominions server, then you input the servers IP or address, put in the port, connect, and play your turn. Its generally more reliable then PBEM, but has its own problems if the server has a dynamic IP and firewalls.

On another note the host has been screwing around trying to get PBEM to work with a direct connect game and he hasn't had any luck so far, so at the moment I will have to retract the turn in turns by email option. You can still receive email notification, or receive turns by email, but you'll have to direct connect to the server to play them. If this changes and we get it working, I'll of course notify you.
For the people that have requested PBEM I'll do my best to help you get direct connect working, but I'll understand if you wish to bow out.

[ano]

Hello.
Although I know I'm hampering myself now, count me in as Agartha, please.
I vote for llamaserver (PBEM)

p.s. Although I, probably, do not count as noob or intermediate, I never ever played with CBM and I haven't played Dominions at all for about a year IIRC.

[Septimius Severus]

Yes, Gandalf had been working on or thinking of a marriage of both PBEM and Direct Connect. It would have been great and probably would have been a first if successfully able to be carried out smoothly. Too bad. :mad: Maybe in the future.

Direct Connect means no files to move around or mess with, which is nice. After you design your pretender (password recommended) when you log on and select your nation, your pretender is uploaded automatically.

[ano]

Aren't you going to use the Llamabeast's Endgame Diversity Mod. It looks great, in my opinion, and should really do what it is aimed for. However, it's just an opinion.

[Corvus]

Ok, 10 people have signed up, but I'll wait to hear from the 3 that requested PBEM before I start the timer. If I don't hear from them by Saturday I'll take it as they're bowing out.

I'm trying to keep mods to minimum to keep it noob friendly, but if you can get 3 players besides yourself to vote for it, I'll add endgame diversity.

[Pablomatic]

I'll give it a try on direct connect then. I suppose you'll send us the address to connect to when you have it?

[Kupiko]

I'm up for direct connect. Still i'd love email notofications please. I vote for ogre map too, looks great.

[ano]

I'm fine with direct connect. It was just a vote.

[Septimius Severus]

I second the vote for End Game Diversity. ;)

Edit, Sorry, I should add assuming the diversity mod is compatible with CBM.

I do understand the desire to keep the game mod free though for noobs.

[Verjigorm]

I'll agree with Septimus. EGD mod ok provided compatible w/ CBM 1.6. I've not practiced on it, so I guess I'll have to run some tests first so I know how it shapes up. :S

[Corvus]

If you want email notification, text message to a cellphone, or the turn file when the game hosts, PM Gandalf Parker your email address or etc.

There is a CBM compatibility fix for lategame diversity, on page 8 so it should work. I might just throw it in so people have a counter to tartarian spam.

[rdonj]

Recommend attaching fixed version to opening post of this thread should you guys go with lategame diversity. There are no known conflicts with CBM in the fixed version. It should work perfectly.

[Verjigorm]

I would like to point out that the Ogre map seems to have some VERY bad starting provinces. I'm frequently getting 3 neighbor starts and this last time I got a 2 neighbor start.

I'm fine if you want to use it, but I reserve the right to mulligan if I get a 2-neighbor starting province. :-)

The other option is to fix the starting provinces or... if the map has been updated since the version I'm using, perhaps those provinces have already been eliminated as starting locations?

Additionally, due to the sheer number of available water provinces (the map is intended for 3 water players), I'm going to say that my prediction is that either R'lyeh or Atlantis will win.

Additionally, (again with the water advantage), All land movement between the four land provinces is restricted to single choke points whereas movement via the sea is extremely unrestricted meaning that not only do the water nations have a numerical advantage in terms of land size, a land nation must also defend a much larger area against them. The ending of this game is therefore predicted to by Atlantis vs. R'lyeh who will optimally take the following strategy:

Enter into a "Last 2" alliance and split the water provinces evenly among them (23 each) and then do a NAP until all land nations are eliminated.

There are 56 land provinces per land nation, but land nations have great difficulty controlling water provinces against sea nations in early and into early-middle game since they cannot hire defenses or naturally travel there (with a couple of exceptions) which means that the water nations have 23 incontestable provinces each for at least 30-50 turns until strong undead, aquatic summons, and the living castle come into play. Sounds very cushy for the water boys.

Not saying I won't work at it or that I'm disgruntled--I always enjoy a challenge. I'm just sayin'... might be a little skewed especially for really new players.

I would recommend that when you build your pretender and formulate your strategy keep the advantage of the water nations in mind, but don't go overboard. Just make sure you have a way to get into the water. LA R'lyeh's dominion is also quite dangerous, so ensuring that you can keep their dominion from spreading into your lands is also a good idea, but that's enough "table talk", I think.

[Verjigorm]

I have constructed two adjusted versions of the Ogre Map which eliminate either all start positions with fewer than 3 neighbors (3up) or all start positions with fewer than 4 neighbors (4up).

I also noticed that 2 and 3 neighbor provinces are the rule, not the exception, so the 3up version is probably sufficient. There are also some provinces that have quite large numbers of neighbors (6-7)--decreasing the total number of starting provinces increases the chance of starting on one of these.

Both versions of the map are found here. All of the additions are at the very end and are denoted for easy readability.

These are .map files only.

I also vote to change the map to the 3up or 4up version posted here.

Disclaimer: I may have made a few errors (I'll say less than 2%)--I was going as quickly as possible.

[ano]

I second Verjigorm and ask that version with no less than 4 neighbor starts is used.

[Kupiko]

Well according to what verjigorm said i'd rather play on different map.

[Verjigorm]

Well, Kupi, you see there are ways to deal with the problem such as a Land vs. Water alliance. 2 sea nations versus all the land nations combined strength would result in the sea nations losing. There are always such interesting possibilities when diplomacy enters the game which is why I like MP so much.

I'm all for sticking with the current map provided, as I said, the provision whereby no one get stuck with a 2-neighbor starting province.

[Pablomatic]

I vote for endgame diversity.

We could play the ogre map, but allow no water nations?

Or another map, I don't care that much, I just like the choke points and interesting layout of the Ogre map. I'm good with whatever the consensus turns out to be.

[Herr Heimlich]

If I see correctly, the game is still open to joining players? Like to hop in as Mictlan, if that is ok.

[ano]

I really hope this game will start soon as it already has 10 players anyway.

Herr Heimlich
Welcome aboard. Do you want endgame diversity? We miss one vote at the moment.

[Herr Heimlich]

I really hope this game will start soon as it already has 10 players anyway.

Herr Heimlich
Welcome aboard. Do you want endgame diversity? We miss one vote at the moment.

Thank you, I do in fact want endgame diversity :D
About the map, I join whatever has the majority at the time.

[Corvus]

As legolasjrt has not contacted me about whether or not they're fine with no PBEM, I am assuming they've dropped, luckily with Herr, we still have ten players. I am starting the countdown now. The game will start tomorrow, anyone who wants in had better post in here quick. We will be using the 4up OGRE map, ans the endgame diversity mod along with CBM 1.6

[ano]

Corvus
It would probably be a good idea if your first post contained a link to the map image file, not only .map files

update:
Just looked at the map here (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=37672) and was totally shocked.
462 provinces, 416 of these are land and 46 are under water.
Guys, are you joking? Considering we have 9 land(or semi-land) players, it means 47 provinces per player. It means this game will last forever and thus is unacceptable at least for me (and, I'm pretty sure, for the most of you if you think about it). I tend to play on Alexander which is a pretty balanced map but even its 246 land provinces is extremely much for 9 land players.
If this map and the ages-lasting game is the final choice, I resign. Sorry.

[Corvus]

I thought it was rather large, but its what people voted for. And I would hate to have to put my foot down and ignore the players votes... So, would anyone like to change their votes? People would probably just go AI.... yeah we're using Cradle. Unless you can manage to get 3 votes for a different map by tomorrow.

[Verjigorm]

Cradle of Dominion works. It's about the right size. I would vote for that. It's also attractive and well-trod so no need to "fix" anything.

[ano]

Yes, it is a fine map, although still pretty unbalanced. If you happen to start at the eastern all-swamp region, it's almost definitely game over. So, if people want, we may hand-place the starts to make it a bit more balanced and fun to play. If not, so be it.
Also, there're still provinces with only two neighbors, namely 1,2, 216 and more. Probably, hand-placing the starts might be a good idea

[Herr Heimlich]

Cradle of Dominion works. It's about the right size. I would vote for that. It's also attractive and well-trod so no need to "fix" anything.

I´d agree with him.

[iamofage]

I vote for Cradle of Dom. Players won't start in any swamp provinces for cradle, and there's prevention system which prevents you to start with less than 3 or 4 neighbers in most of those maps that came with the game.

[Kupiko]

I vote for cradle too.

[Verjigorm]

If we are to start the uploading of pretenders today, we need a port number please.

[Septimius Severus]

Ogre is a nice looking map. But it is probably best with a larger number of players. For new players, one of the game included maps such as cradle (may have the benefits of not needing to be downloaded) maybe be better.

If Ogre is used with smaller number of players, you'd probably want to institute VPs either static or accumulation method, and a VP victory condition to prevent the game from running on forever. Accumulation method can provide even greater control of game length so might be more useful with this map.

Not to say that large numbers of provinces per player are not fine for some players who may like it. Or for games with an RPG/Scenario element, where there are other goals, victory conditions, and other things going on.

[Ballbarian]

Ogre is really only appropriate for very large games (21 land & 3 water players).

[Verjigorm]

In addition to the Cradle map vote, I would also be in favor of a VP condition. Kill all will generally end in a stalemate or capitulation. No one wants to conquer 100 well-defended provinces from a dude with a gem income in the 100s.

[ano]

I'm sorry but as this game didn't start, I took over a position of turn-90 Pythium which requires a tremendous amount of time, so, most probably, I have to skip this game. Please, don't count on me. It will be clearer in the nearest days if I'm able to maintain everything but probably not.

[Corvus]

oi vey impatient people, I can't log on first thing in the morning. And the game is going up as soon as he puts it up and sends me the port.

[ano]

I understand, Corvus. I just have had free time and could not resist an attraction of looking at lategame Pythium that needed a sub. And although it is rather complex I decided to take over.
I actually have developed pretender and strategy as Agartha so if the game doesn't start Tuesday evening, I might as well jump in if there's still place. Sorry once again for inconvenience.

[Pablomatic]

Since there are concerns with the Ogre map, I vote for Cradle of Dominions.

[iamofage]

Is End Game Diversity mod going to be on too?

[Corvus]

Yes.

[Corvus]

game.dom3minions.com
port 12341

I think the double post is forgivable?

[iamofage]

I usually edit unless the post is needed to keep record, so we can start upload our pretenders now?

[Corvus]

Yep.

[Kupiko]

Doesn't seem to work for me..How come when i connect to server and i'm to choose nation to play..marignon is not there for me? I have pretender done.

[Verjigorm]

I uploaded my pretender last night, but I cannot seem to connect this evening...

Server down?

[Corvus]

Someone hit start before everyone uploaded pretenders -_- The servers being rolled back so I think people will have to re-upload pretenders. People who downloaded a turn file need to delete those files on their machine. And when I find out which nation rus stands for, you're getting a smack on the wrist for hitting start. That smack on the wrist being MY WRATH INGAME BWAHAHA.

[Corvus]

Due to my Edit button not being there, I'll have to double post. Server is back up, and only Mictlan and Pythium will have to re-upload their gods. Now, ano, are you in or not? Need an answer whether to wait for you.

Also, Kupiko, what exactly is the problem? Are you clicking on Marignon in the list and nothing happens? Are you not able to connect?

[Gandalf Parker]

I think he tried to get in after it started without him.

[Verjigorm]

I was politely waiting for everyone to join and let the admin start it... I'll re-upload...

[Herr Heimlich]

That was...strange. Well, Pretender reuploaded.

[Kupiko]

Yeah that was the problem. The game started before i uploaded my pretender. It's ok now :)

[ano]

Now, ano, are you in or not?
No, I'm not in, sorry.
Good luck for everybody and have fun

[Pablomatic]

I was one who blundered on and hit "start." I simply didn't know better.

I will now go in and delete the 2H file. Then re-upload my pretender, and not hit start.

My apologies, but it was an honest mistake.

[Pablomatic]

And now when I did that, the screen still says I have played my turn, even though all I did was accept Pythium as my nation.

What am I doing wrong?

[Gandalf Parker]

Dont press the button to start the game. Let Corvus do that when he has all the people he wants in it.

After uploading your pretender you might have to scroll down abit to see the disconnect button. You just want to disconnect.

[Herr Heimlich]

When connecting to see wether the game has started, I get a rather strange phenomenon. First of all, I thought we were supposed to be 10 players, so why si the game started with only 9 nations? Second, when I then select Mictlan, he changes the screen to the "receiving turn"-screen, though the bar never fills and instead just start to flash, with the normal turn screen inbetween flashing trough. If fast enough, I can click exit, but never play my turn, as I then get "error ret turn file". What the h...?

[Gandalf Parker]

My bad. Forgot to delete the fatherland file before restarting the game. Try now

[Herr Heimlich]

My bad. Forgot to delete the fatherland file before restarting the game. Try now

After connecting I return to the Choose a nation for your pretender-screen with "StartGame/Disconnect" at the bottom. I suppose we are waiting thus for number 10?

[Gandalf Parker]

yes. Well actually its not set to start on a set number of joiners like some games. Its waiting for Corvus to start it (unless he tells me he wants it setup for something else)

[Verjigorm]

Looks like we're just waiting on Agartha to upload pretender then?

[Corvus]

Ano has stated they got involved in another game and probably won't be able to play, I'm gonna start without them.

Game started.

[Pablomatic]

Ano has stated they got involved in another game and probably won't be able to play, I'm gonna start without them.

Game started.

Since you say "game started" I went in and played my turn. FYI

[Verjigorm]

Marignon staled turn 4... and appears to have staled for the last 2 turns (3 and 4).

[Pablomatic]

Marignon staled turn 4... and appears to have staled for the last 2 turns (3 and 4).

I vote we delay until Marignon gets in or we get a sub.

[Verjigorm]

Marignon staled turn 4... and appears to have staled for the last 2 turns (3 and 4).

I vote we delay until Marignon gets in or we get a sub.

Agreed.

[Kupiko]

Well sorry i had trouble there with access to internet. Hope it's sorted now..Anyway i'm not getting email notifications although i've sent 2 Pms to Gandalf already. It might cause some stales, cause i tend to forget when should be the turn time :( I am not so often checking.

[Corvus]

I'll send him a PM and ask whats what.

[Kupiko]

Thanks corvus he replied and it got sorted. My notifications were sent to spam and so i didn't see them.

The problem now is that my internet access problem just got more serious and i might have to drop. I'll post asking if someone would like to take over.
I apologise for the trouble.

[Verjigorm]

Marignon looks stale for 1-2 turns. He has missed a few early turns and will therefore be no more than a free gem site for the nearest opponent. We need to either (a) pause and replace him or (b) turn him AI.

I vote for (a) Pause and Replace.

[Verjigorm]

Oops... Now I staled. NP... I should be all good.

[Corvus]

Kupiko, would it help if we switched to 48 hour turns? I'd really hate to kick you, but if you stale too much there aren't many options.

[Corvus]

Due to my edit button disappearing again -_-. It would appear Marignon has turned themselves AI.

[Pablomatic]

Jomon has said he will go AI?

At any rate, I was fighting him.

I also have posted for a sub, and can't find one. I don't want to stale or AI, but must unless a solution presents itself immediately.

I will be gone from Saturday tomorrow, until Saturday June 5th (one week).

Unless something happens, I will turn Pythium to AI.

I have enjoyed playing online on the server like this. It is easier than playing via email and I like that. I feel like the game has barely begun.

[Verjigorm]

Request for Extension

I am going camping this weekend Friday, June 25th through Sunday, June 27th. I will be back Sunday Evening, and I am in the CDT Time Zone (GMT - 5 in Summer). I would prefer a weekend extension.

Additionally, if our turns are not at 36-48 hours yet, we should bump the turn time up.

[Corvus]

Anyone against 48 hour turns and a weekend break?

Also is anyone else having trouble connecting, cause the game keeps freezing at the retrieving game info part for me.

[Septimius Severus]

Just a note: Utgard is now AI.

I'm surprised we've gone more than 60 turns all at 24 hours and no one has asked for interval increase. Quite impressive.

I wouldn't be against 36 or 48 hours as of next turn. Might lean toward 36 but either one is fine. I'm handling the 24 OK so far. No problem with me if an extension is needed over the weekend.

[Verjigorm]

That makes 4 AIs, now? Craziness.... Don't people ask for subs anymore?

Fortunately, I believe that AI Marignon and AI Jomon are duking it out for supremacy of the noreastern region of the continent...

[Verjigorm]

Scratch the extension for me, I no longer need it. The campsite is flooded so we're "camping" in the back yard instead... and I would prefer to go to 36 rather than 48, not that I'm necessarily interested in either. I figured, since this was a game with new people, that we "should have" gone to 36/48 by now since we're getting into late game phase, but if everyone can keep up with the 24 hour turns, that's cool, too.

I have noticed that my most recent several turns have required two looks--one to survey and plan, then let it stew for a few hours and come back and change orders around before submitting.

[Verjigorm]

Please, please, PLEASE STOP GOING AI!

We can at least try to get subs. If you just "go AI" we got nuthin'!

[Gandalf Parker]

If Corvus wishes it I can put an AI lock on this game.

Its become a rather popular feature. You can set your nation to computer player but the game wont accept it unless I add that nation to the allowed-AI list. That gives the person running the game a chance to decide if they should hold up for a sub or allow the AI.

[Corvus]

Well, on the one hand I'd hate to put the game on hold to look for 5 subs, which would probably take a while. On the other hand, with so many computer controlled players I get this odd feeling R'lyeh's gonna snowball. Seeing as Mictlan was the only thing stopping him from taking the western side of the southern continent... Do the people still playing want to wait a while, maybe a long while for subs, Or continue to duke it out as it stands, or should we just say this ones been killed by drop outs?

[Verjigorm]

You can't replace the previous people who AI'ed out. The only one that can be repped is Herr Heimlich (Mictlan), and that is what I'd suggest.

R'lyeh would not be able to "snowball" as you say. I could grab a significant portion of the eastern territories and I'm sure Septimus (Atlantis) could grab his western possessions.

Regardless of strategy, I suggest pausing the game and finding a rep for Mictlan.

[Verjigorm]

Extension Request

Oh! BTW... That extension I requested earlier and canceled is needed now. The camping trip was postponed due to flooding, but this weekend it's all good, so I will be Internet free from Friday afternoon, July 9th through Sunday afternoon, July 11th.

That should fit well into finding a sub. This game is just starting to get good.

[Corvus]

So I guess that settles it, I'll ask the host to put a lock on Mictlan and pause the game.

[Septimius Severus]

Ok, Corvus. What are we doing here?

Has a sub been found? Has anyone been actively looking? Are we going to continue on or call the game?

Thanks.

[Corvus]

I've been poking around with no luck. To be perfectly blunt I'm pretty sure I'm boned long run for this game, so I might not have been as enthusiastic as I should have. If there isn't a sub for mictlan in a day or two I guess we'll have to just do without.

[Corvus]

Due to my edit button still hiding from me.

I guess we'll have to resume the game without a sub for Mictlan. I'll PM the host.

[Septimius Severus]

Can't be sure (without seeing the staling data), but I believe the R'lyeh player may have gone AWOL. R'lyeh seems to be the last to submit (if at all) and I've received no response to any in-game messages.

[Gandalf Parker]

http://game.dom3minions.com/games/nubbash/

Good catch.
I rotate up to 9 stat files. I show 3 stales
1.stats.txt:R'lyeh didn't play this turn
2.stats.txt:R'lyeh didn't play this turn
3.stats.txt:R'lyeh didn't play this turn

[Corvus]

Hells bells not another one.

[Verjigorm]

...sigh...

[Eximius Sus]

Does this happen often? The first post shows 4 players going AI and now 2 are not playing. Doesn't really seem like multiplayer.

[Gandalf Parker]

Actually yes it happens often. Very few people ever actually see the end game announcement of Dom3. Most of the games are ended by decision. Just agreeing on who the winner is.

This game is on turn 84. Thats impressive for a game that started with 9 players.

This one has more than usual AIs. But thats a common symptom of games involving new players. Especially IMHO if they have been encouraged to skip solo play and jump straight into MP

[Eximius Sus]

This one has more than usual AIs. But thats a common symptom of games involving new players. Especially IMHO if they have been encouraged to skip solo play and jump straight into MP

What does skipping solo play have to do with giving up?

[Verjigorm]

There are now only 3 players left (provided R'lyeh is gone), but for this part of the game, that would be normal. 3 people is still multiplayer.

[Gandalf Parker]

Well on AVERAGE (not every player maybe)
Solo game is when you do lots of just dropping the game when things go wrong to start a new one and try it different. At first it might be 2 turns in, then 5, then 10. Finally you feel like you have a nation and a build that works for you. Eventually even one that regularly lets you win the game. It would take an unusual game player in my opinion to be jump straight into multiplayer dom3 and be willing to stay in the game after what you feel is a catastrophic loss.

Whats interesting is how many of these games Ive seen those human-turned-AI players continue to kick tail and even win games. When the AI can play a players nation better than the player, that would tend to show a lack of time in solo play. Thats why Ive started adding a "cant turn AI" lock on many of my newbie games.

[Verjigorm]

So what are we going to do with R'lyeh? It seems more and more like the only option for this game is to AI them, but... I was attacking him... With the exception of some Elemental Royalty and a pair of Shishi's, he doesn't really have any army that I saw--just a few water squishies and insanes--neither of which can kill demons. The SC's can though, and I was kinda looking forward to attacking them. -.-

[Corvus]

Well, r'lyeh does have a few tarts around his pretender. Pretty sure the ai Won't be able to effectively use them, and his income and territory is so boned I doubt the AI will accomplish anything, but there ain't much choice it seems...

[Verjigorm]

Well... I suppose, convert him to AI then. ...grumble...

[13lackGu4rd]

I can take a look at your R'lyeh, see if there's anything left to fight with... if not I'll just set it to AI for you guys.

[Corvus]

R'lyeh isn't password protected I think, so hop on and take a look if you want. He isn't terribly boned for a human, its just the AI wouldn't know how to use what he has.

[Verjigorm]

The stales of R'lyeh have resulted in the death of his pretender in my siege of one of his castles. I'm sure that if someone was actually playing R'lyeh, that he would have teleported his pretender out before the siege.

[Eximius Sus]

Well on AVERAGE (not every player maybe)
Solo game is when you do lots of just dropping the game when things go wrong to start a new one and try it different. At first it might be 2 turns in, then 5, then 10. Finally you feel like you have a nation and a build that works for you. Eventually even one that regularly lets you win the game. It would take an unusual game player in my opinion to be jump straight into multiplayer dom3 and be willing to stay in the game after what you feel is a catastrophic loss.

Whats interesting is how many of these games Ive seen those human-turned-AI players continue to kick tail and even win games. When the AI can play a players nation better than the player, that would tend to show a lack of time in solo play. Thats why Ive started adding a "cant turn AI" lock on many of my newbie games.

This is very bizarre logic. If SP teaches you to give up whenever things get tough and just start again, more SP experience would seem to result in MORE quitters. Less SP experience might just teach you to play through the game since you can't just reload.

And the other obvious conclusion is why the hell play MP if you end up killing AI's. You can do that in SP at 40 turns a day instead of wasting months to find out you are just fighting the AI. Sounds like a phenomenal waste of time to me.

[Gandalf Parker]

Im saying solo teaches you that. Im saying it gets it out of your system.

I know I tried and dumped alot of nations early on before I found one I was comfortable with. Id hate to have tried them in mp first.

[Eximius Sus]

Sounds a lot like practicing the piano solo and quitting whenever you find it hard is good training for performance.

[Gandalf Parker]

I wouldnt say that.
If you are going to compare it to instruments then Id compare it to all instruments. I wouldnt recommend jumping into professional training right away. Its best to mess around abit with each instrument and get a feel for which one you want to stick with.

Jumping into MP in Dom3 chances getting trashed with a dozen nations and giving up, never figuring out that nation 28 is your best one.

[Corvus]

I don't see whats the problem here, all he said is play around with nations in single player to get a feel for which one you like before jumping into a long *** multi-player game with no clue what you're doing.

[Verjigorm]

Well, I'll just say that I pick my races either thematically or randomly and I use SP to develop strategies. I rarely finish any SP game even with a nation that I like. One can generally tell if a particular strategy is viable long before the game finishes.

Therefore, finishing SP games is not a requirement for finishing MP games.. I use it for testing purposes only since I find the AIs boring.

[Gandalf Parker]

Heehee. Even I rarely finish solo games.
I do feel I have progressed beyond "quit at first loss" due to gaining confidence in solo play.

Im just saying that quit-at-first-loss is not unusual for new players whether they start in solo or mp. So recommending people jump into mp means no one should be surprised at alot of early AIs

[Eximius Sus]

Problem? It's not a problem.

It's just that there is a very strange logic to the idea that practicing quitting lots makes you more resistant to not quitting. How is that supposed to work?

People are habitual. If they learn the habit of quitting when things get tough they will continue it. So playing lots of SP and quitting should result in more quitting. Not less. That's my problem with the suggestions listed here.

[Verjigorm]

I agree with Eximius generally. A game started under the premise that you have chosen to play it with others means that you will continue to play or find a suitable replacement for yourself if unable requires the virtue of Honor and nothing more.

No amount of practice in SP can grant you Honor. You have to take it for yourself.

A player who quits because he gets upset, bored, tired, etc., is either dishonorable or undisciplined to the point where virtue is irrelevant as the person has not the capacity to understand its purpose.

All important real-life events are exempted, of course since Dom3 is just a game.

[Septimius Severus]

Valid points on both sides of the argument I think.

There's alot of reasons why players may quit, drop, or otherwise disappear early. And while I agree with Gandalf that noobs may be generally less disciplined than veterans and thus more inclined to drop when the going gets tough or they get bored or busy, personal commitment, honor, and concern for the other players in the game, also plays an important role as Verjigorm noted.

[Corvus]

Quitting was never a problem for me, I'm fairly certain early mistakes probably already cost me this game. Its just such a small daily time commitment I don't really see the point in quitting, it just feeds the guy who beat you and makes it easier for him to beat others.

[Septimius Severus]

Ok, so are we continuing, declaring a winner, or finding a sub for R'lyeh or setting them AI? I have glanced at the turn for R'lyeh, I know Blackguard also looked. I can set them AI and distribute any remaining gems, items to the rest of the players and try to move/maneuver their remaining forces into AI Mictlan or some other out of the way place if you guys want. We can also just let them keep staling, means turns will take the full 48 hours but they will be sitting ducks/defensive only and easier to conquer than if we were to set them AI and have them actively resisting. Your choice.

[Corvus]

Ugh, well I'll just set them to AI then. That leaves three players.

[Verjigorm]

I see someone finally dispelled my Nexus, and the Mother Oak as well. Interesting.

[Septimius Severus]

Wow, I am amazed at how fast we are running through some of these turns. Now at turn 102. Must be some excitement brewing. :D

[Gandalf Parker]

for any interested lurkers....
http://game.dom3minions.com/games/nubbash/scores.html

[Verjigorm]

Wow, I am amazed at how fast we are running through some of these turns. Now at turn 102. Must be some excitement brewing. :D

Yes, we've been getting 1.5 or 2 turns a day. It is getting quite interesting.

[Verjigorm]

Dangs.... You guys got slightly lucky on that last turn. I didn't get to do all the things I wanted to. :/

Apparently, even though it says it doesn't upload the .2h file, selecting "Save Game and Quit" still uploads the turn file...

I did about half my turn on my lunch break and then realized that I forgot to hit "Quit without Saving" as usual when I started, so I selected "Save game and Quit" which told me exactly what I wanted to hear... That it saves the turn in its current state but doesn't upload it to the server...

but it lied....

it lied to me.

I wonder... should I report it as a bug or is it a known issue?

Oh well. ^_^

I usually do my turn... then ponder... then adjust... then upload. You missed the ponder and adjust.

...and a Dispel on the Arcane Nexus again eh, and for some reason.... Atlantis' Riches From Beneath got kicked too? I'm wondering if it was a horror or on purpose... Hmmm......

Ok by me, of course.


Also Mr. Ulm... Did you like that battle last turn? You seemed to think you would win in advance (referring to the castle as I built as a "free" castle in your haughty little message), but then you died. :'(

I had to swallow my pride and ask around about Iron Blizzard. The missiles it shoots count as regular missiles, so they can be easily blocked by a shield.

[Septimius Severus]

If you hit anything other than "quit without saving" a .2h file will be generated on your system. This .2h file can then be uploaded to the server by your machine when you connect/or are connected to the server (i.e. you forget to hit "exit" to disconnect from the server after receiving your new turn file).

You've done a bad thing Bogarus (by freezing the seas), although it was not unexpected. This has cost me much grief. It is almost tantamount to a declaration of war. But forgiveness can still be yours. Just make right your transgressions by taking down that global and surrender any remaining sea provinces. You know you've no business beneath the waves anyhow. No need to drag me into the war as well.

We should also probably vow to keep the Arcane Nexus down from now on. This is also a bad thing. Lets just slug it out and finish it.

[Verjigorm]

Also, I do have to admit that I was rather intimidated by that force of.... I can't remember exactly what the estimate was, but I was thinking... 900ish?

That was a lot of vampires. I was going to save the turn file, but I grabbed the new one without thinking. :(

It was spectacular--especially when Pazuzu friendly-fire wasted my Bane Lord with a Thunderstrike. :S

I hope you have something good in this 500 force... or are you just suiciding all of those wolves and thralls for some reason?

[Corvus]

I underestimated the chokepoint... And I was hoping whoever had the staff of storms died or something.

[Verjigorm]

You've done a bad thing Bogarus (by freezing the seas), although it was not unexpected. This has cost me much grief. It is almost tantamount to a declaration of war. But forgiveness can still be yours. Just make right your transgressions by taking down that global and surrender any remaining sea provinces. You know you've no business beneath the waves anyhow. No need to drag me into the war as well.

We should also probably vow to keep the Arcane Nexus down from now on. This is also a bad thing. Lets just slug it out and finish it.

Now why exactly would I do either of those things? Playing your opponents game always results in a loss unless he doesn't understand his own game. Obviously, you've prepared a strategy which would be very good for a late game high-resource slugfest... If I were to try to play that game, I'd get creamed!

As far as I'm concerned, as soon as I put the Arcane Nexus up, I figured that you would consider that a declaration of war since most other people do. It's fine if you want to continue on with neutrality, but there's no way I'm paying to remove the icy seas. As I mentioned after I cast it, it has a few purposes:

1: Prevent you from easily collaborating attacks with Ulm--you will remember that you parked a little army rather close to my coast on the turn I cast it.

2: Provides a convenient way to convert water gems back into astral pearls via the Nexus.

3: Forces you to expend pearls to get rid of it. (exchange your pearls for my water gems). This also has the bonus effect that if you do decide to try dispelling it, it will be that many more turns before you can try to dispel the Nexus again.

I consider it a very good move, and what you're suggesting would indeed be a very bad move.

The way I look at it, if you have somehow come up with a strategy to stop my Arcane Nexus, I might as well see what it is--even if I lose, what I gain in the experience is worth more than the game itself.

If you don't have a coherent strategy for destroying the Nexus (other than by some vain attempt at salesmanship), then it will go back up without any problems and you will be left still poorer in the gems I am actively spending to combat you.

I'm not going to follow your suggestions unless I feel they have some sort of concrete benefit to me. "Your Word" has no value at this stage in the game. I figure you don't attack me because you think you'll lose what you send or because you cannot find a suitable invasion route. Either one is fine with me. The more turns I get against Ulm one-on-one, the better. It's not like you're ever going to magically ally with me and attack Ulm... That would be rather crazy.

We could consider that to be your act of loyalty if you like. Take two of Ulm's castles--then I'll consider you an ally.

[Corvus]

Good luck, you and R'lyeh are in the way of all of them but 1. And I have like 5 metric tonnes of vampires I can sneak in wherever I want.

[Septimius Severus]

Basically, for the most part this has been a fight between you (Bogarus) and Ulm on that northwestern continent and frozen seas is an obvious tactic if you fear attack from the sea and your opponent is a water nation. It is certainly a good tactic and you are indeed a fine and crafty player. That being said, tis still a bad thing that the peace loving inhabitants of Atlantis will not be able to soon forget.

It was of course foolish of the dwindling numbers of remaining players to ignore the Nexus for so long, but it will not necessarily guarantee you a win.

[Verjigorm]

That's true, but it's awfully nice to be in control of it. It has already spawned two very nice secondary globals and I won't say how much other stuff I have already purchased with it.

I think I need to revise my reason for your non-aggression. I'll state that the most likely reason you haven't done anything is because you are concentrating your efforts on swallowing up various AI holdings. ;)

[Septimius Severus]

I think I need to revise my reason for your non-aggression. I'll state that the most likely reason you haven't done anything is because you are concentrating your efforts on swallowing up various AI holdings. ;)

Well, I had been distracted with AI Mictlan and finishing up Utgard after they went AI. Holding huge numbers of provinces it not really my goal though and can be a headache. But at the same time, kinda seems ridiculous to attack one another till the AIs have been either contained or defeated. Though the victory condition of last man standing is obviously intended for human players, how can a nation be said to win a game if there's an AI nation like Jomon leading in most of the score graphs (globals not being considered) still remaining.

[Verjigorm]

I think I need to revise my reason for your non-aggression. I'll state that the most likely reason you haven't done anything is because you are concentrating your efforts on swallowing up various AI holdings. ;)

Well, I had been distracted with AI Mictlan and finishing up Utgard after they went AI. Holding huge numbers of provinces it not really my goal though and can be a headache. But at the same time, kinda seems ridiculous to attack one another till the AIs have been either contained or defeated. Though the victory condition of last man standing is obviously intended for human players, how can a nation be said to win a game if there's an AI nation like Jomon leading in most of the score graphs (globals not being considered) still remaining.

I thought the reverse was true--that it would be ridiculous to fight AIs when there were humans to fight. If I wanted to fight AI's I'd play SP.

Additionally, even accepting the premise that "AI Players should be conquered first", the fact that in order to fight against AI players, Ulm would have to go through me conflicts with the notion.

[Corvus]

Actually, when I took the Locmar port from you that opened up All Sorts of possibilities to plunder Mictlan. Their strong dominion's just been slowing my expansion armies down a bit.

EDIT: Oh for crying out loud how are you still in that fort- .... STORM DEMONS AGGH I knew I forgot to set my vampires to do something

[Verjigorm]

Actually, when I took the Locmar port from you that opened up All Sorts of possibilities to plunder Mictlan. Their strong dominion's just been slowing my expansion armies down a bit.

EDIT: Oh for crying out loud how are you still in that fort- .... STORM DEMONS AGGH I knew I forgot to set my vampires to do something

Your dominion has been purged. Now all who come shall die for real.

I'm hoping you mean "guard my Black Priests" because.... Damn dude... Those guys got *** raped rather quickly. One turn, BAM! No more priests. :P At least the first couple of times you attacked, you enveloped them in vampires so they wouldn't get eaten until the end. I figured you were getting sloppy.

[Verjigorm]

...or not... 3 candles in 1 turn from zero...

[Corvus]

Inquisitors man. Plus my prophet, god, and capital are sitting right next to it. And my prophet is sitting on it when he's not next to it.

[Septimius Severus]

I thought the reverse was true--that it would be ridiculous to fight AIs when there were humans to fight. If I wanted to fight AI's I'd play SP.

Additionally, even accepting the premise that "AI Players should be conquered first", the fact that in order to fight against AI players, Ulm would have to go through me conflicts with the notion.

True, this was not intended to be a vs. AI game and most victory conditions only apply to human players. But basically the point I was making is merely theoretical (if the game continued, the human player would probably be able eliminate all competition eventually, hopefully):

I mean if by attrition, concession, or elimination, a human player is the last player standing, but at the same time there is an AI nation still standing that is way ahead of that nation in the score graphs, has double the amount of provinces, an army 8 times larger, whatever, etc, can we really say that player has won in the sense of dominating the game and in eliminating all opponents at a given point in time?

Speaking of the AI, what are you and Jomon doing up there? It looks to me like Jomon is taking several of your forts. Are you trying to use Jomon to protect your eastern flank?

[Verjigorm]

I thought the reverse was true--that it would be ridiculous to fight AIs when there were humans to fight. If I wanted to fight AI's I'd play SP.

Additionally, even accepting the premise that "AI Players should be conquered first", the fact that in order to fight against AI players, Ulm would have to go through me conflicts with the notion.

True, this was not intended to be a vs. AI game and most victory conditions only apply to human players. But basically the point I was making is merely theoretical (if the game continued, the human player would probably be able eliminate all competition eventually, hopefully):

I mean if by attrition, concession, or elimination, a human player is the last player standing, but at the same time there is an AI nation still standing that is way ahead of that nation in the score graphs, has double the amount of provinces, an army 8 times larger, whatever, etc, can we really say that player has won in the sense of dominating the game and in eliminating all opponents at a given point in time?

Speaking of the AI, what are you and Jomon doing up there? It looks to me like Jomon is taking several of your forts. Are you trying to use Jomon to protect your eastern flank?

Jomon is annoying. They haven't taken "several" of anything--only Abitopolis which they (or their predecessor, Marignon) have been attacking since turn 15. I have been ignoring them and playing defensively. It's annoying to try to attack large AI players because it requires both large armies and micromanagement thereof since when you attack a stronghold, you need to spread like well... I guess the best depiction would be "ringworm" despite that being disgusting--you have to put armies along the "ring" in order to keep them from recapturing and being annoying. Up until a few turns ago they hadn't sent anything that could get through my slightly augmented PD. They don't really have anything left though. Abitopolis isn't under my dominion (it's under yours at the moment), so I was reluctant to send vampires in, but knowing the AI, they don't sit in one castle, they keep advancing, so it was inevitable that they would move on Baron's Road which is under my dominion and as soon as they sieged the castle, I sent my vampires in to destroy them. Now their thug hero is dead and I can ponder what to do about Abitopolis again.


I didn't know that Ulm had Inquisitor priests. Those Black Priests always seem to be getting nicer. (I'm an Ulm fan btw... every age except middle, but I haven't really played extensively with LA).

[Corvus]

Hmm battle in yamba wha- so THATS why you wanted all those pearls. I didn't think Bogarus got Seraph-... you wished didn't you. And he intercepted one of my vampire lord sabbath slaves, that ain't good.

[Verjigorm]

If you noticed, he had a little problem with fatigue due to the "Boots of Quickness", so I had to do a couple modifications....

Revealing a Sabbath magic strategy is interesting. Why would you tell me such a thing before you actually go to use it?

Marignon and Pythium get to summon the Seraph, but the spell is considerably more expensive than a Wish and comes with a bunch of other angels to go with the Seraph--it's an excellent summon spell. I, however, have to use the lesser "Wish" version. I was quite impressed with the test run--I've never actually played a game long enough to summon and play with such a beastly thing.

[Corvus]

Well that was bold. I swear if you turn this into a game of guess where Seraphs gonna be next I will start raiding the hell out of you.

[Verjigorm]

Well that was bold. I swear if you turn this into a game of guess where Seraphs gonna be next I will start raiding the hell out of you.

lol, if you want to do something, why not just do it? I couldn't possibly believe you've been "holding back" on raiding out of some type of invisible gentleman's agreement you made with yourself?

Considering that you already attempted raids with Horde from Hell, what would be the difference in using a different troop type?

In fact, send Vampires. Lots of them! As many as you want.

This is, btw, the absolute longest game of Dominions (2 or 3) that I have ever participated in.

[Corvus]

I actually just used the hordes from hell mostly to scout because you wouldn't let a SINGLE FREAKING SCOUT IN. Got too expensive though. Plus its demonic troops if you win. I dislike raiding unless its my main strategy going in, or a nation is focused on it, like say Helheim. I tend to think if something annoys me, it probably annoys other people, so I try not to do it too much. And while vampires are decent raiders, my going in strategy was a Massive Vampire Omega Defense and a small expansionist army composed of Black Priests and summoned demonic forces. My starting situation put a cramp on that though. Plus I was utterly new to this game when I starte- god, this game has been going on a long time hasn't it.


and no I will not be sending any vampires because that seraph and your tone scares me too much. I will not sacrifice any of my adorable non-sparkling vampires.

[Corvus]

Well it seems this game has been going on long enough anyone with death scales is starting to see all their pop dying.

[Verjigorm]

117 turns at Death-3 (which is what I think Atlantis has) or 3% death per turn leaves just a hair under 3% (2.8333%) of the original population of a state that had Death-3 on turn 1 and kept it the entire time unless the death rate is lower than 1% per tick... I don't know b/c I don't usually play with death scales on any nation except Ermor and their death rate is much much higher.

[Corvus]

I might be needing a small extension, I'm going on a short trip tomorrow (Thursday), and I get back Friday or Saturday.

[Verjigorm]

Aren't you in charge or administering the game, or is Gandalf doing it?

I will also be without Internet (camping) on Labor Day weekend (September 4th through 6th).

[Corvus]

Gandalf is doing most of the admining. I'm just the organizer/decision guy.

[Septimius Severus]

The way I look at it Corvus is the game admin, Gandalf is the server admin. It is always helpful for an active player (whether admin or not) to post on a game thread when a delay might be needed to keep everyone informed.

[Verjigorm]

Now THAT was a bold move, Corvus! Your 4S Pretender versus my 5S Seraph in a Mind Duel! Totally unexpected and lucky for you.

I shall have to summon non-astral SC chassis, but if I had the opportunity to pay 100S to destroy two temples and mind duel your pretender with an advantage, I'd definitely have gone for it. Killing your Virtue would have been so awesome.

[Gandalf Parker]

Gandalf is doing most of the admining. I'm just the organizer/decision guy.
And mightily appreciated for it.
Are you beginning to get a feel for why? I got burned out on the management part before Dom3 was even released.

If someone wants to invent an interesting setup for a Dom3 game I will gladly host it for them. Or they can try hosting it on their own machine. I could only run (organize/manage/DM) 1 or 2 or maybe 3 games at a time. But I (or LLamaserver) can host hundreds.


Gandalf Parker
-- feci quod potui, faciant meliora potentes
I have done what I could, those who can will do better.

[Corvus]

What Can I say, In My boredom I'm feeling crazy. And it wasn't astral 5, its 4, Boosters don't help Magic duel. So they were totally even, it was pretty much a Coin toss. (Am I the only one who knows this? Heh) Oh I'm back by the way. And I staled and didn't get to see my pretender kill it, awww.

Now I'm just gonna call this game, Atlantis almost certainly has it, I'm too honorable to turn on him unless he attacks me first, and by then it would probably be too late. But lets see what happens, it may be a shocker yet.

[Verjigorm]

It would seem rather anti-climactic to just give the game to Atlantis.

[Verjigorm]

and I also note that, no, in fact I did not know that Mind Duel did not respect item buffs. Since you seem to know it's mechanics:

1. Does it respect spell buffs like Power of the Spheres or Light of the North Star?

2. Does it respect Communion Master path enhancements?

I will also point out that you and I were allied until you attacked Killaka Fen, so I don't see why honor should apply to Atlantis when it doesn't apply to me. You didn't even try to negotiate a share of pearls from the Nexus.

[Gregstrom]

1. No.
2. No.

Base Astral level only.

[Corvus]

That was an independant province, and you had already done the same to me, taking provinces that had been taken from me by R'lyeh before I could go kick him out, and then refusing to even trade them back for other provinces.

[Verjigorm]

Well then, this little war erupted over a misunderstanding. See.. I missed the turn on which it was your property and didn't notice the changeover until after the battle had occurred. I assumed that you had taken it forcibly the turn before. I figured I missed the message because the message logs are so long at this stage of the game, I occasionally miss an event.

I obviously couldn't allow you to control it because it is a choke point between the southern and northern fractions of that portion of the map. I suppose, however, that it would have been better diplomatically (had I known it was taken from independents) to trade that province for the southern port island that connects to (formerly) Mictlan.

You never offered anything I wanted in exchange for that province. That little island is ****ing valuable and would have provided me a route for invasion of Mictlan which would eliminate a competing blood nation which, at the time, was my plan for after I finished with R'lyeh. Then both of them went AI and that, of course, changed everything. I wasn't interested in expanding eastward because all of the players on that portion of the map had gone AI--I've been calling that rather large Northeastern region "AI Land" for some time and had no interest in it since there was no real people to fight.

It was more interesting fighting you anyway, and I was bored which is why I chose to attack rather than negotiate. ;)

I suppose, though, that I could go for letting this game slip into the recesses of history and concede, not based on the fact that I don't think it would be possible to beat Atlantis, but more rather based on the fact that I would have to consume all of Jomon before doing so and he would still have a leg up due to the gem income....

Septimus? Would you like a gimme win? If you want to continue we can still go at it, I think I can come up with a few more things, but it will probably be a lot of vs. AI between you and I unless you want to unfreeze the seas (which I can easily refreeze, btw). Plus you're relying on resource-generated troops in a nation with death scales...

Additionally... LA Ulm appears to be a very good turtling nation. You can't invade it with anything that doesn't have shields because of the Black Priests, and you need strong a strong dominion assault to punch through. I had the strong dominion assault ready, but I should have gone with my original idea and held the Juggernauts back until after the battle to prevent them from getting routed, and I didn't have shielded units. Demon Knights and Storm Demons would have been the best mix for that offensive.

Anyway... I have most of the Ice Devils insane or horror marked to the point at which summoning them isn't worthwhile anymore.... Belphegor got multi-horror marked so much that I can't keep him alive, either, and Mabakiel is quite insane (as well a lot of the ice devils). Its difficult to switch from Blood SC chassis with AC up, too.

The AC, btw, was a successful defense against the Nexus--without AC up, the Nexus was generating 70-100 gems per turn. Once you put AC up, the income from the Nexus dropped to 25/turn which means it takes 6 turns just to pay for the base cost of casting it, and I think you guys were able to dispel it in something like 6-8 turns.

People always say that the Nexus is "invulnerable", but it's definitely easier to defeat that people think it is. AC is a very potent counter.

Oh! another interesting thing about Bogarus: My pretender has been horror marked so badly that he gets attacked by a horror (usually a Doom Horror), every turn, and when he casts a spell, he gets attacked by two, and for some reason even though he has really high Astral magic, he always uses an extra pearl to cast Returning (uses 3 instead of 2 unless he only has 2), so I can't just give him 4 pearls when he casts a spell because he gets wasted by the second horror attack and loses any boosters I put on him. I have to give him 6 pearls. Therefore he costs 2 pearls per turn to keep him free of afflictions, and each spell he casts requires an additional 6 pearls to prevent him from dying in the process. I also didn't like his build and would change him significantly in the future.

[Septimius Severus]

It is turn 119. The longest game I have ever been in. I have learned a great deal and have had a good deal of fun. I am sure we all have. And I had a great time playing with you all. If the game ends now, it is fine with me.

There is certainly no point in continuing if people are bored, exhausted, or busy with other things. I will humbly accept the win by concession/exhaustion if you guys want to quit now. I personally don't mind AI fighting, but that is just me.

Verigorm is right, my death scales would eventually kill off all my population, largely shutting down my production capacity and income, though with the large amount of AI provinces yet to be taken, it might take quite some time for that to fully materialize.

Yes, Astral Corruption was/is a great counter to Arcane Nexus, which is why I pushed for it.

And yes, while Arcane Nexus is a powerful global, it certainly doesn't guarantee a win as the game shows.

I will abide by Corvus' decision as game admin at this point, whether to call the game. I have no objections. Large empires can be a headache to maintain anyway. Not just ferrying troops to the front, I also have to keep troops in the rear (at geographically spaced intervals) to deal with independent attacks and random flareups, which increases with the more provinces you hold.

[Corvus]

Hmmmmmm. To be quite honest aside from masses of chaff, vampires, and freaks now, I got nothing but my excellent black priests really. This'll show me to get a more varied pretender. I can probably devastate anything attacking me that isn't a heavy SC so I'm pretty sure it would take a really long drawn out war of attrition to crack me. On the other hand I wouldn't really mind to keep playing, the games winding down a bit, but I'd hate to just quit...uggh. *flips a coin* Heads, unless there's any last minute objections, let's call it. How about we leave the game up till tomorrow in case someone changes their mind.

[Verjigorm]

Yeah, you really needed some Storm Demons. Things that can fly in the rain are extremely useful--more cost effective than Spring Hawks and aren't mindless either.

I was also quite surprised that no one challenged me on any of the unique demons. I had all of them except for 1 of the Arch Devils for quite some time. This was back before I found out that shields block Iron Blizzard--I should've asked about that spell much earlier. Versus Mictlan and Ulm and I had to empower my pretender in Water magic to get the Ice Devils. Ice Devils, btw, are the best SC Chassis from Blood, IMO. They start with 20+ protection and can cast Wolven Winter on their target province before they go in to boost their protection score higher. This means that they can use the cool special armors like bone armor and robe of shadows instead of high protection armors.

My next SC was going to be a Chayot with the Forbidden Light so it vaporizes vampires; I was also considering the Ark. They transform 3 times so you can only Magic Duel their first form. They're not nearly as devastatingly powerful as a Seraph, but they don't have Magic Duel vulnerability either.

[Septimius Severus]

Great game guys. Thanks to Corvus for game admin and to Gandalf for hosting.