Besieging Forts - Reduction/Repair Formulas

[Mysterio]

Since I wasn't seeing the expected results in a game I'm playing, I thought I would conduct a test to confirm the formulas in the manual for Reduction Strength and Repair Strength during a siege were correct. Based on my test, they aren't.

TEST SETUP

1 High Priest (Strength 9) in Fortified City (Defense Value 250) being besieged by 1 Great Hawk (Strength 11, Flying) and 20 Black Hawks (Strength 5, Flying). According to the manual:

Repair Strength for the High Priest = 9x9/100 = 0.81
Reduction Strength for the Great Hawk = (11x11/100)+1 (for flying) = 2.21
Reduction Strength for the 20 Black Hawks = [(5x5/100)+1 (for flying)]x20 = 25

Total Repair Strength = 0.81
Total Reduction Strength = 27.21
Difference = 26.4

Therefore, the Defense Value of the Fortified City should be reduced by 26.4 from 250 to 224 when the Great Hawk and Black Hawks enter the province. But it's only being reduced by 6 (from 250 to 244).

What are the correct formulas?

[sector24]

Can you retest without Black Hawks? It's been said that they have a built in siege penalty because they are so easy to summon en masse.

[Mysterio]

Can you retest without Black Hawks? It's been said that they have a built in siege penalty because they are so easy to summon en masse.

You may be right, as eliminating the 20 Black Hawks from the test resulted in a Defense Value reduction of 2, which equates to 2.21 (Great Hawk) minus 0.81 (High Priest) = 1.4 (looks like it's rounded up). Are there any other units that receive such a stealth penalty?

[thejeff]

Isn't there a sieging penalty for being animals? Or is that just a defense penalty?

[Squirrelloid]

The manual claims there is a defense penalty for being an animal. The manual is lying. Note, AFAIK black hawks penalty is only offensive (since they seem to make exceptional defenders).

Mindless units also theoretically have a defense penalty, and people seem to assume this one is true. (Notably, most undead hordes). Have not tested.

[TwoBits]

Dang, is that true, Squirrelloid? Animals suffer no defense penalty (and not just monkeys and such, but moose and lions, etc.) on repairing fortifications?

I can see smart monkeys using bricks and mortars, but it's hard to imagine moose and lions piling rocks :D

Is there perhaps some kind of difference between "sentient" animals (like monkeys/apes) and just, you know, 'animals', when it comes to defense?

[Squirrelloid]

Dang, is that true, Squirrelloid? Animals suffer no defense penalty (and not just monkeys and such, but moose and lions, etc.) on repairing fortifications?

I can see smart monkeys using bricks and mortars, but it's hard to imagine moose and lions piling rocks :D

Is there perhaps some kind of difference between "sentient" animals (like monkeys/apes) and just, you know, 'animals', when it comes to defense?

lch could find no evidence of a penalty associated with the animal tag while code diving. It would of course be pretty trivial to check.

[TwoBits]

lch could find no evidence of a penalty associated with the animal tag while code diving.

Well there it is. Could you argue that that is some kind of bug? That sure, the Monkey nations' troops should be able to defend fortifications, but that other, most likely summoned, animals should not?

Maybe there needs to be two separate animal tags?

[chrispedersen]

The manual claims there is a defense penalty for being an animal. The manual is lying. Note, AFAIK black hawks penalty is only offensive (since they seem to make exceptional defenders).

Mindless units also theoretically have a defense penalty, and people seem to assume this one is true. (Notably, most undead hordes). Have not tested.

Where does the manual say that animals get a defense penalty?
I see no such claim on pg 81.

Anyway, I worked this all out long ago - with almost the exact example.. search the threads for sieging and animals.

If you subtract 1 from each hawk (for animal tags, blue moon, whatever) the result ties.

[Squirrelloid]

Oh sorry, minor confusion on my part. It was the devs who claimed animals got a penalty to siege defense - you're right that it doesn't appear in the manual. From the "Lies My Rulebook Told Me" thread:

Animals have a siege penalty which is not stated. p81 (Update- This is incorrect, there does not seem to be an animal penalty, despite dev comments)

[TwoBits]

So lions, tigers, and bears, oh my!, are just as good at wall repair as any other unit (what, not counting mindless units?)? Wow! And of very immediate use in at least one game I'm in (I still wonder how they get their paws/hooves on those bricks and mortar).

Sounds like a bug though, if so...

[thejeff]

On the other hand, the Bandar Log should be able to repair walls. They built them after all.

And Elephants would be useful in hauling stuff around.

So there's weirdness either way.

[Kadelake]

Meese -natures mason. They build walls at the speed of two and a half humans :)