MA Test Game - Retinues

[DrPraetorious]

I want to test a component of my MA balance mod - retinues. What I've done is this: I've given every national commander (not mages, but non-mage priests yes) the ability to appear in battle with a medium-sized retinue of warriors, which are replaced automatically each fight. I'm still fine-tuning the retinue sizes.

The other components of my MA test mod will be tested later. It will be a 6 player game on one of Gandalf's random maps, with nations chosen from the list below. Renaming will be on, other settings will be standard. There will be no rollbacks or hosting delays, quickhost with a 24h timer unless and until a majority want the host lengthened.

It will not be CBM, but if anyone wants to use a CBM *pretender*, note that below and I will make sure the CBM chassis you want to use is available (the final version of the mod will include many of the changes in CBM 1.6, including most of the pretender buffs)

This will be an otherwise-vanilla game, I'm looking for six players to fill the following nations:
MA Mictlan
MA Ermor or MA Pythium
MA Marignon
MA Caelum
MA Pangaea
MA Shinuyama

Although this is a test-game, I'm hoping that it will be hyper-competitive, as that should give me a good idea on the balance consequences for this change. It'll be a direct-connect game. I will play the sixth position if I can get it free. I'm hoping to launch Wednesday morning, but it might launch anytime in the next week and a half, depending on level of interest and when people want to start.

[ano]

The one obvious problem with this idea is that it significantly lowers the thugging potential of some commanders because of morale issues. Probably not with the nations listed (though I many times thought of how the Shuten-Doji could be used a thug but each time decided against it) but still...
But it may be a cool idea although I don't think it will help balance much

[LDiCesare]

You're just adding retinues?
Clamless?
Do assassin commanders (Machaka, but it's not in your list) come with a retinue?
Do theurg communicants come with a retinue?
Do Marignon Friars, Seraphines, black harpies, centaur hierophants, bakemono scouts and bandit leaders get a retinue? (What with being stealthy and thus killing PD 1 easily)
Ermorian cultists should probably get ghouls...

I miss the point of MA Mictlan in this set of nation. There's little reason why they'd want to recruit non mage/priest commanders except for ferrying troops, and when they're idle these often summon slaves, so I don't think you'll be testing anything about them unless there's something else in the mod.
Machaka if you make the change for their assassin would need testing however.

[DrPraetorious]

I should add - the intent of this mod is to encourage people to use national commanders. There are nation vs. nation balance components to the mod which I will be testing later.

You're just adding retinues?
Clamless?

No, not clamless, but the maps are fairly small.
I haven't decided whether the overall balance mod will be clamless. Clamlessness has complicated effects on nation vs. nation balance in the late game, and I don't object to clamming? I want games to end eventually, and clam-hordeing is a good way to build up an insurmountable lead and actually win.


Do assassin commanders (Machaka, but it's not in your list) come with a retinue?

Yes, the bane spider comes with a retinue, but this is a component of the nation vs. nation balance for Machaka, which I will flesh out later. Are there any other leader/assassins? I don't think there are.


Do theurg communicants come with a retinue?

No, but Battle Acolytes will come with retinues (probably standard bearers?)


Do Marignon Friars, Seraphines, black harpies, centaur hierophants, bakemono scouts and bandit leaders get a retinue? (What with being stealthy and thus killing PD 1 easily)
Scouts and priests will get retinues IF they have leadership, except maybe seraphines - if seraphines come with retinues, they will be a little-girl Caelum acolyte unit which I will add. The scout retinues will be small, though - unless the scout has full leadership.
Witch-hunters (of all levels, including the ones who get a single F pick) and Anathemants will both come with retinues, but they will be small, relative to the cost of the commander, even though both those units get decent leadership.


Ermorian cultists should probably get ghouls...
Good point.


I miss the point of MA Mictlan in this set of nation. There's little reason why they'd want to recruit non mage/priest commanders except for ferrying troops, and when they're idle these often summon slaves, so I don't think you'll be testing anything about them unless there's something else in the mod.
Machaka if you make the change for their assassin would need testing however.
I'm adding MA Mictlan to this game b/c it'll give me another data point to decide how they stack up against the other nations on the list. They probably won't use their retinues, you're correct.

[DrPraetorious]

The one obvious problem with this idea is that it significantly lowers the thugging potential of some commanders because of morale issues. Probably not with the nations listed (though I many times thought of how the Shuten-Doji could be used a thug but each time decided against it) but still...
But it may be a cool idea although I don't think it will help balance much

There are a few thuggable commanders which will not be given retinues for other reasons (notably the various Jotun and Ashdod commanders.)

Are people really spending a lot of time thugging their Emerald Lords? I've seen it done, but of all the things to worry about, this concerns me the least.

[Septimius Severus]

Hmm, I like the fantasy role playing idea of heroes, commanders, or what have you and their retinues of loyal troops. Perhaps smallish in terms of numbers and with high morale. I am guessing it saves players from having to manually assign bodyguards to commanders in battle and auto replacing them means no extra recruitment, or expenses. I am available if you need assistance with testing the concept from a rather noobish player, probably via Ermor or Pythium. Will the game run full length or just long enough to see if it makes an impact? Probably prefer the later.

[DrPraetorious]

This is a preliminary version of the mod.

[DrPraetorious]

The *main* purpose of this mod is to motivate people to actually use their national commanders.

Once that is in place (if even to a limited extent), you can balance weaker nations by giving them better national commanders/retinues. At present, having better national commanders is a completely meaningless advantage.

Hmm, I like the fantasy role playing idea of heroes, commanders, or what have you and their retinues of loyal troops. Perhaps smallish in terms of numbers and with high morale. I am guessing it saves players from having to manually assign bodyguards to commanders in battle and auto replacing them means no extra recruitment, or expenses. I am available if you need assistance with testing the concept from a rather noobish player, probably via Ermor or Pythium. Will the game run full length or just long enough to see if it makes an impact? Probably prefer the later.

[LDiCesare]

Shuten-doji seem even less interesting to recruit wigth no retinue.

[DrPraetorious]

Shuten-doji have a poorly-understood exhaustion field which would knock their retinues unconscious. Then the retinue would be murdered and the shuten-doji would flee due to auto-rout.

Shuten-doji are intended to be thuggable - and can't really be adapted to serve as useful commanders.

[Stagger Lee]

Judging by the unit description, the Shuten-doji should be a capable commander:

Shuten-doji (http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Shuten-doji)

I don't understand the exhaustion field myself, but would a retinue of blood slaves contribute to auto-rout, or would they just fall down and allow him to feed off of them? I think that might be a thematic and grisly way to handle this guy.

If he kills friendly units with his aura, or music, or whatever the field is, his life drain ought to absorb friendly life force, no?

The other problem might be abuse if empowered in blood, but how big a retinue is required for such abuse?

[DrPraetorious]

You know... I have no idea if summoned blood slave *units* can be used to fuel blood magic. Possibly they can.

In any case, no, his life drain does not draw life from friendly units, it's a weapon. His flute is some kind of aura or field, and may even itself be a "spell" - so if I give him a retinue, he may lose it (I don't think so.)

One option would be to give him a retinue of winged monsters of some kind that appear on the edges of the battlefield, thus out of the range of his flute. Possibly even these could be a neutral summon. I'm not sure if either of these alternatives would make the shuten-doji particularly better - or even how strong he is as a thug. I've been told his exhaustion field is fairly powerful, actually.

Judging by the unit description, the Shuten-doji should be a capable commander:

Shuten-doji (http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Shuten-doji)

I don't understand the exhaustion field myself, but would a retinue of blood slaves contribute to auto-rout, or would they just fall down and allow him to feed off of them? I think that might be a thematic and grisly way to handle this guy.

If he kills friendly units with his aura, or music, or whatever the field is, his life drain ought to absorb friendly life force, no?

The other problem might be abuse if empowered in blood, but how big a retinue is required for such abuse?

[Septimius Severus]

The *main* purpose of this mod is to motivate people to actually use their national commanders.

Once that is in place (if even to a limited extent), you can balance weaker nations by giving them better national commanders/retinues. At present, having better national commanders is a completely meaningless advantage.

Hmm, looking at the mod, I suppose giving national commanders retinues might promote their use more (certainly be fun), though I'd venture just making the commanders stronger on their own, might work as well. I know I generally opt for recruiting regular indy commanders due to the generally lower gold cost, and their ability to be recruited without forts. If I use a national commander unit, it is because they have the right type of leadership values, greater strategic map move, or decent cost. Other commander unit effects (standard, stealth, glamour, etc) play an important role as well.

[Wrana]

Good idea, I think. I'll gladly take part in testing it, preferably as Shinuyama or Pythium.
Further thoughts may be forthcoming. As for Shuten-doji, theoretically, he can work with a small retinue of some undead who should be immune to his flute effect (but this I have not tested)...

[Wrana]

Considering Septimius' idea about just making national commanders tougher, I think that while it may be viable for some commanders, commanders of civilized nations shouldn't generally be thugs. For example, in Pythium army Serpent Lord may be thuggable, but Legatus Legionis absolutely should not.
Upon reading the mod: right now I think they are mostly OK, except for Bakemono chieftain. 3 archers would be useless, I think. If he gets archers, maybe some 10? Or some other troops, such as Bakemono warriors, who should be useful in smaller numbers. Or just give him some magical bow?
Considering Minotaur Lord, I think he will remain quite thuggable with 1-2 bodyguards. They will just take some attacks on themselves and would attack the same enemy. He won't be prevented from attacking unless bodyguards take 2+ squares by themselves. On the other hand, I think Kappa chief is quite useful even without bodyguards.

[Septimius Severus]

Aparently DrP is going to save making national commanders tougher as a means to balance weaker nations in his balance mod. Probably may not even need to make national commanders necessarily tougher though, simple things like greater map movement, more leadership (or other types of leadership), maybe one or two effects like patrol, or standard, seige, or cold or heat resistance, with/without retinues may be enough to make players think twice at least about using them more.

[Wrana]

Yes, I thought something along these lines. Thug commanders in civilized nations should be summons or specialists such as above-mentioned Kappa chief or Serpent Lord. Black Lords of Ulm are something of an exception, being good commanders as well, but Ulm forging ability allows to make thugs much easier.

[DrPraetorious]

Tough commanders or tough *retinues* could both balance weaker nations.

I'll consider stripping the retinue off the Kappa Chief - I don't think he's much use as a thug (in spite of his recuperation and kung fu), but as an amphibious commander of course you will use him some - but then, as soon as you get any water provinces, you'll switch entirely to indie commanders, guaranteed.

Yes, I thought something along these lines. Thug commanders in civilized nations should be summons or specialists such as above-mentioned Kappa chief or Serpent Lord. Black Lords of Ulm are something of an exception, being good commanders as well, but Ulm forging ability allows to make thugs much easier.