Reverse Communion Confusion

[Adam J]

I'm trying to create a reverse communion with Marveni druids however I'm having trouble. I have two communion masters who cast power of the spheres and earthpower in the second round and then spam bladewind. This works fine, however the eight communion slaved druids are set to start spamming bladewind as well in the third round and then I'm supposed to watch as I rain glorious death on the opposing army of Pangaeans. Instead, the slaves cast sermon of courage and bless which results in my piss poor bare chested troops getting run down by satyrs. Anyone have any idea what they are letting me down?

[thejeff]

That sounds like it should work.

The slave druids are casting, so it isn't an ordering problem. Are they actually getting the bonuses from PotS and Earthpower? The path boosts & reinvig should be visible.

They could be out of range, but bladewind is pretty long range and if they're at the same distance as the masters that would be ruled out.

Druids should be able to find something more useful than holy spells to cast. They are casting Communion Slave successfully, right?

[Adam J]

They're definitely getting the bonuses, I looked at em and they've all got 4 earth magic and they're sitting right next to the masters who are launching righteous waves of blades at the enemy, but instead they're casting useless level one holy magic (which is doubly annoying considering they currently have 3 holy and could at least be smiting)

[thejeff]

I'm not sure what else to suggest.

You could try running it with debug on and seeing if there are any clues in the spell choice section of the debug log.

[GrudgeBringer]

No expert, but the way he described it the Masters cast first which frees the slaves as I understand it.

[thejeff]

No. If the masters cast first in the round the slaves would not act. They are casting holy spells so that didn't happen.
If the masters cast Communion Master a round before the others cast Communion Slave, then nothing changes, except the slaves join the communion slightly later. As long as they are in when the masters cast PotS & Earthpower, it should work fine. And they are, since he can see that the slaves all have 4E.

As far as I know, there is no way to free the slaves. Once you're in a communion you're in it until you or all the masters leave the field. Even when all the masters are gone, the slaves still retain the buffs.

I'm not sure what's going on here, but it looks to me more like a problem with the spell selection algorithm, not the communion directly.

[chrispedersen]

Adam,

1. Did you order the slaves to cast the spells?
2. Are you sure they are in range?
3. Are the masters casting? (slaves do nothing if masters do before them.

However, the most likely reason is this:

The AI will not cast spells that result in excess fatigue.
I suspect you are using communion slaves that do not have astral.

So the fatigue that each individual slave would get is doubled, including the armor encumbrance from the master.

If each individual slave has too much fatigue the AI will deprecate fatigue causing spells.

So if casting bladewind etc would put you over 100, the ai is likely to choose a different spell. Giving them earth gems to cut fatigue may help with the scripting.

There is one other reason, but I forgot what it was. Senior moment.

Also, you should try casting those in alternate order. Summon Earthpower, then Pots.
It gives you one more turn of reinvig.


Oh, right, I remember.

The other possibly likely cause is too many friendly casualties. Even one or two squares of placing will cause number of friendlies to go to high.

[Squirrelloid]

Can you upload a screenshot of your scripting screen? I think that would help the most. (You can remove all troops and extraneous commanders so we can see some slaves and the masters all in one shot).

[thejeff]

Or just the turn if it isn't a MP game?

[Adam J]

Sorry guys, I've already moved on and don't have screenshots- but I'm quite certain the slaves received the bonuses... or at least the one slave I looked at did, and he was just blessing my boar warriors. Also, I had two masters so they got both the earthpower and the POTS on the second round (one was cast by each master). I'm confused by what an "ordering problem" might be. Does it matter what order the communion slave/master is cast? (I understand that the second round gets tricky since the earthpower and pots don't go into effect before some slaves cast, so I just had all the slaves casting farstrike (which didn't work either)). And I can't imagine it was a friendly fire or fatigue issue, as the masters were casting the good stuff and where next to the slaves and fatigue was being split between eight slaves all of whom had the relevant paths (and three spare paths when getting fatigue from the masters). I really appreciate all the thoughtful help however.

[chrispedersen]

A
B
C
D
E


Are all casters. Order matters very much. If A casts "Pots" before E has cast "communion slave", e won't get the bonus.

Similarly, if B is a communion master and casts "blade wind" C, D, and E will take no action that turn.

B has to fire a crossbow etc in order for CDE to do something.

[Adam J]

Thanks Chris, I knew the ordering was relevant for receiving the bonuses from spells (seems pretty intuitive that someone won't receive the benefits before the spell is even cast), but I didn't realize that the slaves would sit (or cast crappy holy spells as the case may be) if the communion master already cast first. So basically for a reverse communion to work you need your master to either not cast spells or act last in the round?

[Gregstrom]

That's exactly it. Mages cast in the order they appear in the tactics screen, so it's easy to set up a communion to work the way you want.

[thejeff]

But they shouldn't cast holy spells, if they act after a Master. They shouldn't do anything.
That's what I don't understand about this.

Unless.... I have a vague memory about weirdness with priests and quickness. You didn't have a W9 bless did you?

[Stagger Lee]

but I didn't realize that the slaves would sit (or cast crappy holy spells as the case may be) if the communion master already cast first. So basically for a reverse communion to work you need your master to either not cast spells or act last in the round?

The slaves won't cast holy spells if a master has cast, they will simply absorb fatigue for the master. I did some testing with Marverni Druids (http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Druid_(Marverni)) in a similar configuration to what you described. I scripted:

8 slaves (communion slave;flying shards;blade wind;blade wind;blade wind), and
2 masters (communion master;pots/summon earth;blade wind; blade wind;blade wind)

The flying shards was just to keep them all doing the same thing that round. Rounds 3 and 4 had everyone throwing blade wind. Round five was mostly blade wind. Fatigue enters the calculation in this round.

My understanding of fatigue distribution would give you something like this:

Where E2 is the base for slaves and masters, masters are boosted 3E for 8 slaves, + 1E for pots or summon earth, so masters can cast blade wind without problem. And slaves are actually boosted 2 from pots & summon earth, so they can all cast + 3 for fatigue from 8 slaves. So fatigue cost/N+1 (N = 7-3)

Each master casting blade wind -> 80 fatigue * 2(masters) = 160 / 8(slaves) = 20 * (1/N+1) = 20/5 fatigue/trn = 4

And for their own casting -> 80*(1/5)= 16

Giving each slave 20 fatigue/turn. But that doesn't quite work. I think they probably don't get the +3 communion bonus when doing their own fatigue calculation.

So for their own casting -> 80*(1/2)= 40

total about 44 fatigue/turn.

This would explain why some but not all stopped casting blade wind on round five. The druids have at least 50% chance of being E3 Which would drastically improve their fatigue score, and allow more castings. I did not base anything in my tests on native E level, since everyone should have been able to cast the spell. The only determining factor was who came first in the setup screen, the two masters being the bottom two.

[Stagger Lee]

But they shouldn't cast holy spells, if they act after a Master. They shouldn't do anything.
That's what I don't understand about this.

Unless.... I have a vague memory about weirdness with priests and quickness. You didn't have a W9 bless did you?

In my first tests, I didn't have them casting flying shards on round two, blade wind instead. Since many of them were not capable, they threw out all sorts of holy spells and other low fatigue stuff.

[Adam J]

I had them all acting after one of the masters, so that clears up one mystery. That seems like any extremely wierd rule that they won't cast if the master casts first, but I guess it's an attempt to help with fatigue (but knowledgable scripting will do that better, so its a bit paternalistic). I don't think that particular ordering issue is in Baalz extremely handy guide. I didn't have a w9 bless, so I don't know why they felt free to cast crappy holy spells, but they certainly did. And thanks for the calculations Stagger Lee, I had already estimated I'd get only two (or if really lucky three) bladewind out of each slave thanks to the 40 fatigue from each casting.

[thejeff]

Stagger Lee: Yes. Your example works the way I understand it. And you are correct that slaves only get the communion bonus for fatigue from the master's spells, not their own.

But that doesn't match Adam's report, that the slaves never cast Bladewind, but did cast holy spells instead.

[thejeff]

The original intent of Communion was to boost the masters and not have the slaves cast at all. No reverse communions. That they work is essentially a bug. It's a bit of unintended weirdness that has become part of the game.


If you catch them doing that again, save the turn. Maybe someone can make something of it if they can duplicate/experiment with it.

[Stagger Lee]

I had them all acting after one of the masters, so that clears up one mystery. That seems like any extremely wierd rule that they won't cast if the master casts first, but I guess it's an attempt to help with fatigue (but knowledgable scripting will do that better, so its a bit paternalistic). I don't think that particular ordering issue is in Baalz extremely handy guide. I didn't have a w9 bless, so I don't know why they felt free to cast crappy holy spells, but they certainly did. And thanks for the calculations Stagger Lee, I had already estimated I'd get only two (or if really lucky three) bladewind out of each slave thanks to the 40 fatigue from each casting.

Yes, I think it is what could be called an exploit. Although not a cheap one. I have killed many of my own mages underestimating fatigue accumulation on slaves.

Reverse communion - 2 or 3 masters then as many cheap slaves as you can muster. Your masters will cast power of the spheres then whatever other booster is appropriate (phoenix power, etc). For air spells you can use the third master to cast storm so that air power is an option. Now, all your slaves have been boosted 2 levels, so they can cast fun things like falling fire, thunderstrike, etc. Even lowly S1 mages are now capable of Soul Slaying. The fun thing about this one is it's a great way to use all those cheap researchers you've got with no other preparation. Leading a fight with three rounds of 10X Falling Fires makes quite a difference considering how cheap the mages are. Note, this communion takes advantage of one of the quirks of the communion, the fact that slaves can cast spells so long as they act sequentially before all masters in the turn sequence. Commanders resolve their orders in the same order that they're listed in the strategic screen. If for whatever reason you're not comfortable trying to get this order right you can have the masters retreat after casting the buffs - the buffs remain in effect. Note, the communion bonus does not affect slaves casting by themselves, only the buffs the masters cast help. Apparently the slaves are acting by themselves outside the communion.

Credit where credit is due! :)

[Adam J]

Thanks for pointing that out that I'm just oblivious Stagger Lee... although to be fair it'd be helpful to retards like myself to explicitly state that slaves won't act if the master casts first rather then make me have to infer it from the statement that slaves will act sol long as they go first sequentially before the master. I'm surprised I didn't figure that out before though, seeing as I like doing mixed communions with mystics and maguses (magi?) and apparently just never noticed some mages were sitting on their butts.

[RadicalTurnip]

I've heard (untested) that any form of quickness (did they have quickness, even though not a W9 bless) can sometimes lead to 2x holy spells a turn (or 2x item-spells a turn). Any quickness at all?

[thejeff]

That's what I was thinking of, though I'm not sure it's that simple.

I believe 2 item spells a turn works reliably. I'm much less sure about the 2 holy spells.

[chrispedersen]

but I didn't realize that the slaves would sit (or cast crappy holy spells as the case may be) if the communion master already cast first. So basically for a reverse communion to work you need your master to either not cast spells or act last in the round?

The slaves won't cast holy spells if a master has cast, they will simply absorb fatigue for the master. I did some testing with Marverni Druids (http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Druid_(Marverni)) in a similar configuration to what you described. I scripted:

8 slaves (communion slave;flying shards;blade wind;blade wind;blade wind), and
2 masters (communion master;pots/summon earth;blade wind; blade wind;blade wind)

The flying shards was just to keep them all doing the same thing that round. Rounds 3 and 4 had everyone throwing blade wind. Round five was mostly blade wind. Fatigue enters the calculation in this round.

My understanding of fatigue distribution would give you something like this:

Where E2 is the base for slaves and masters, masters are boosted 3E for 8 slaves, + 1E for pots or summon earth, so masters can cast blade wind without problem. And slaves are actually boosted 2 from pots & summon earth, so they can all cast + 3 for fatigue from 8 slaves. So fatigue cost/N+1 (N = 7-3)

Each master casting blade wind -> 80 fatigue * 2(masters) = 160 / 8(slaves) = 20 * (1/N+1) = 20/5 fatigue/trn = 4

And for their own casting -> 80*(1/5)= 16

Giving each slave 20 fatigue/turn. But that doesn't quite work. I think they probably don't get the +3 communion bonus when doing their own fatigue calculation.

So for their own casting -> 80*(1/2)= 40

total about 44 fatigue/turn.

This would explain why some but not all stopped casting blade wind on round five. The druids have at least 50% chance of being E3 Which would drastically improve their fatigue score, and allow more castings. I did not base anything in my tests on native E level, since everyone should have been able to cast the spell. The only determining factor was who came first in the setup screen, the two masters being the bottom two.

No, this is not right. First, calculate each spell separately, as you have to add the spellcasting encumbrance of the master to each slave, on top of their normal encumbrance.

[Stagger Lee]

Each master casting blade wind -> 80 fatigue * 2(masters) = 160 / 8(slaves) = 20 * (1/N+1) = 20/5 fatigue/trn = 4



No, this is not right. First, calculate each spell separately, as you have to add the spellcasting encumbrance of the master to each slave, on top of their normal encumbrance.

I'm not so sure, chris. I think you're correct in that the 80*2 should be divided by 10.

160/10=16

16/5=3.2 rounded up? =4

I don't care about the fatigue on the masters themselves, they're going to be fine. And again, I'm looking at lowest case E2 druids. At least half of them should be E3 or better.

[Fantomen]

Not entirely on topic, but you should have one of the masters casting eagle eyes too.

[Adam J]

Fantoman- I considered that, but it was such a large army I was facing that I figured it was irrelevant and I wanted to get my masters casting blades asap. I am doing that now though with another army of druids (along with correcting the ordering issues I had) since I've shifted over the often painfully inaccurate gifts of heaven.

[nordlys]

This might be a newb question (never tried communions before), but how to reorder mages in the list to ensure the masters are first or last? Isn't commander order more or less random/governed by obscure procedures? Providing someone special is to be used as a master; if it's just "whoever is first/last will be master", the question is moot.

[Gregstrom]

This might be a newb question (never tried communions before), but how to reorder mages in the list to ensure the masters are first or last?

You can't, I'm afraid.

Isn't commander order more or less random/governed by obscure procedures?
It's predictable at least - as noted before, commanders cast in the order you see them in the tactics screen.

[Stavis_L]

This might be a newb question (never tried communions before), but how to reorder mages in the list to ensure the masters are first or last?

You can't, I'm afraid.

Isn't commander order more or less random/governed by obscure procedures?
It's predictable at least - as noted before, commanders cast in the order you see them in the tactics screen.


In Communist Russia, you don't reorder the Communion, the Communion reorders YOU!


:-P

[Kheldron]

Remember "y" shows you the army setup in the target province when you move several armies at once

[chrispedersen]

Each master casting blade wind -> 80 fatigue * 2(masters) = 160 / 8(slaves) = 20 * (1/N+1) = 20/5 fatigue/trn = 4



No, this is not right. First, calculate each spell separately, as you have to add the spellcasting encumbrance of the master to each slave, on top of their normal encumbrance.

I'm not so sure, chris. I think you're correct in that the 80*2 should be divided by 10.

160/10=16

16/5=3.2 rounded up? =4

I don't care about the fatigue on the masters themselves, they're going to be fine. And again, I'm looking at lowest case E2 druids. At least half of them should be E3 or better.

All I'm saying with the above calculation you have to add the armor penalty of the Master (double sometimes) to the fatigue calculation for the slaves.

I wrote down my exact formula for communions somewhere- I've never seen it be more than 1 fatigue off.

Its fairly easy to see the effect. Give a Master the armor of aseftik to cast in.