Battleground - CBM, max lvl 6 magic, no site search/research - Finished

[Valerius]

If your favorite part of Dominions is the mid-game then this game might be just what you're looking for. By removing all magic above level 6 (and all globals) the traditional end-game is eliminated. By removing the need the need for site searching (all sites are revealed when you take control of a province), and most research, the game very quickly moves from expansion to mid-game.

If you think you may be interested, download the attached mod (includes CBM 1.6) and fire up a test game. You'll find expansion is a breeze with most spells through level 6 available from turn 1. Of course the problem won't be indies ... but other players who have access to the same level of magic.


Era: MA
Banned nations: All water nations, Ashdod and Jotunheim (recruitable SCs in a game without SCs), Ermor and Pan (free spawn issues in a game without battlefield clearing magic).
Number of players: Around 8 (depends on the response)
Map: TBD (approx. 12 provs/player)
Starting provinces: 3
Hosting: 24 hours until turn 20, 48 hours until turn 40, 72 hours thereafter
HoF: 15
Other settings default


Details

Spells: There is no magic above level 6. All spells from levels 6 and below have been been made level 0 and are available immediately. The only exceptions to this are remote attack/movement spells which are assigned to level 3 (this is the only reason to research at all). Mists of Deception is also banned. In addition, all globals are banned.

Magic sites: 30%+ Conj./Blood and all Constr. sites are banned. Other than that everything is a level 0 site - meaning there is no need for site searching. This also means you may have a good supply of gems of a type your national mages can't use - keep this in mind when designing your pretender.

Magic Items: All level 2-6 magic items are forgeable from turn 1. In the previous game Squirrelloid discovered a problem in that if a random event chose a level 2-6 magic item the player wouldn't receive anything since there were no longer any items at those levels. So a selection of weaker unique magic items has been assigned to those levels so that the player receives something from the event (note all these items have 65F65A forging cost so no point in trying to research Constr. so you can forge them). Here (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showpost.php?p=753699&postcount=149) is the list of items if you are interested.

Mages: Mages are very important in this game. While small numbers won't be able to take out armies by themselves, as in a normal late game, masses of them will inflict considerable damage on the battlefield. And without a need for research there's no reason not to mass them. In this game mages are meant for fighting. This of course impacts what you choose to recruit since you don't care about getting the most efficient researcher.

Blood magic: We will be using the blood magic nerfs from Squirrelloid's balance mod (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=45761). This increases the price of most blood summons. Additionally, Jade Knives, Soul Contracts and Lifelong Protections have been eliminated. And some spells have been removed for this game. But keep in mind that the opportunity cost of blood hunting that exists in a normal game isn't an issue with no research to be done. If you are not at war, there's no reason not to have every blood mage blood hunting (aside from a few for summoning and forging). The best thing to do if you are thinking about playing a blood nation is to load up the mod and look at what's available and what it costs.

Armies: Troops, both recruited and summoned, will be relevant throughout. You don't have to worry that master enslave will obsolete your well-balanced army or that Flames from the Sky will incinerate them. Thugs will have a role in this game but the only SCs you are likely to encounter are opposing pretenders.

Misc. changes: Naiad warriors cost increased; Machakan spider forms have upkeep cost.


Players

Abysia - Fantomen
C'tis - Squirrelloid
Caelum - Graeme Dice
Eriu - zlefin
Pythium - BigandScary
Shinuyama - Dark Kitty
Ulm - LDiCesare
Vanheim - Valerius

[Squirrelloid]

Am I expected to defend my title as BL? Because I was considering playing a different nation =)

[Valerius]

No, feel free to switch. It's the player defending their title - not the nation. :)

[BigandScary]

I'll play as Pythium.

[Graeme Dice]

Caelum for me.

[Valerius]

Pretty good response this time around! Maybe halving the number of unusual settings worked. ;)

[Squirrelloid]

I'll take Ctis, which should be quite different from BL.

[Valerius]

That is very different. One thing is for sure: any nation without recruitable healers or a pretender with that ability should fear the miasma more than usual since there won't be any way to obtain healing.

[Squirrelloid]

bwahahahaha

[Fantomen]

Interesting, I'll play Abysia.

[Valerius]

Good to have a powerful blood nation on board. But please do look over blood magic carefully, even if you're familiar with Squirrelloid's mod, since there are some differences. Don't want there to be any nasty surprises (one that pertains to Aby is that there is no Send Horror - though Send Lesser Horror is available).

[Fantomen]

Yeah, I've looked at it. No jade knives, no vampires, no contracts and no send horror. Quite a nerf, but I think it's all good and necessary changes. Like you say the settings compensates in that blood becomes more viable from the start.

The world shall BURN!!!

[Valerius]

LDiCesare has confirmed that he will play Ulm so Mictlan is now available for anyone in the mood for a double bless.

[Valerius]

So we've got 6 players. We can play with that but I think it's worth waiting a couple more days to try to get 8. Also, this is a holiday weekend in the U.S. (through Monday), which may impact some players.

[LDiCesare]

First try. Inverted tower (4 air, illusionists) just near my capital. Wow.
The sites will make for more magic diversity.

[Valerius]

Yeah, it will be a big change. You'll find sites early on that you normally wouldn't until later (like most people, I suspect, I eventually search my provinces for every path except sometimes blood - but it takes time).

It does fit in with the idea of speeding right to the mid-game, when you have managed to search all paths. But mainly it removes one of the many conditions I had last game in the hope of the game having a broader appeal.

[Dark Kitty]

I would like to join as Shinuyama

[Valerius]

Ok, we just need one more player!

So, let's assume we'll get 8 players. Any map suggestions?

[zlefin]

this looks interesting, i'm gonna poke around the mod and see what nation i'd like to try; but i think i'll join (though if someone more definite comes along, feel free to go with them instead)

[Valerius]

No worries; we haven't decided on a map yet so it's easy enough to add another player.

[Valerius]

I ran a batch of random maps. These six seemed the most promising. Any opinions on the attached options?

Edit: these are all 125 prov maps and would work fine for 8-9 players.

[Dark Kitty]

I guess 2 or 3 (more rivers)

I was looking at maps on llamaserver yesterday : the Hyborian Age and Europe seemed nice, altough a bit big compared to what you wanted (unfortunately there was no link for Europe)

If we have 8 players with ~12 provinces each, maybe Aran could do?

[Squirrelloid]

aran is an awful map.

Middle Earth is 106 provinces though, which is ~12/player. I've wanted to play a game on that map for awhile. And iirc it has very few water provinces.

Random maps are bad because they only have border mtns (no real mtn provinces). So unless you want to massage some .map files...

[LDiCesare]

I don't like the maps because they have water provinces. 6 would be my best bet from a quick look.

[Valerius]

I was looking at maps on llamaserver yesterday : the Hyborian Age and Europe seemed nice, altough a bit big compared to what you wanted (unfortunately there was no link for Europe)

My concern with those is that they have too many water provinces

If we have 8 players with ~12 provinces each, maybe Aran could do?

I considered Aran based on the number of provinces (I've never played it MP) but I don't think it's balanced.

Middle Earth is 106 provinces though, which is ~12/player. I've wanted to play a game on that map for awhile. And iirc it has very few water provinces.

Middle Earth could work on the lower end of the provs/player scale but I've got to say I just don't like the look of that map. It's tough on my eyes.

Random maps are bad because they only have border mtns (no real mtn provinces). So unless you want to massage some .map files...

No problem. We can do basic edits like creating real mountain provs or changing prov connections, or even extract portions of a larger map like with Cradle in ThreeFort.

I don't like the maps because they have water provinces.

Though I'm the most anti-water nation player I know, I like having a few water provinces as features to break up the terrain. Would you prefer no water provinces at all or that they just be single provinces, not two or three together?

I guess 2 or 3 (more rivers)

BTW, I don't think the random map generator makes rivers impassable - they are just decorative features. But I could edit the map file to make them impassable.

[Dark Kitty]

BTW, I don't think the random map generator makes rivers impassable - they are just decorative features. But I could edit the map file to make them impassable.
I was thinking about more provinces with higher incomes actually but I think you're right, they must be only decorative. It would be nice to have a map with some impassable obstacles though (not necessarily that you modded yourself, surely there is plenty of maps which already have some)

I usually like maps with water but since most people don't seem to like them and since I have the only "water-capable" nation so far, I guess we can find a map without water (may I ask for one water province though, to make a pond for my kappas? :p)

EDIT : how about Ringworm or Six Lands then? No sea, pretty balanced...

[LDiCesare]

Though I'm the most anti-water nation player I know, I like having a few water provinces as features to break up the terrain. Would you prefer no water provinces at all or that they just be single provinces, not two or three together?
Zero water province is the best for me. If not, preferably not too many clusters, and no more than 2 provinces together.

[Valerius]

Ok, I tried to incorporate the suggestions: have some water provinces so that water summons/troops can be obtained but no more than two together.

I cut off the right side of elmokki's Land of Milk and Honey map and eliminated most of the water provinces. There's only five: two sets of 2 and 1 by itself.

It should be around 100 provinces.

[Fantomen]

Looks ok. So are we ready?

[Valerius]

Yeah, I figure no objections means everyone is ok with it. I've had very little time for Dominions today but I'll fix up the map ASAP (have to redo the province connections, etc.) and setup the game. Hopefully zlefin is in; if not, then we start with 7 players.

[zlefin]

i'll take eriu.

[Valerius]

i'll take eriu.

Great, so we've got 8 players.

Ok everyone, I've attached the map to the first post. This version doesn't have fixed start locations. Please let me know if you notice any problems when testing it.

Also, see the JPEG on the first post to view proposed start locations.

I'll set up the game on the llamaserver shortly with a placeholder map.

[Valerius]

The game is ready to accept pretenders.

You can ignore the fact that Cradle is listed as the map. I'll swap this out for the real map before we begin.

So, any suggestions regarding the proposed start locations let me know.

BTW, I did make some small changes to the map. I added an extra bridge on the upper left of the map so there would be another access point to the upper landmass. I also added a second bridge to the larger island. Click on any of the provinces with harbors to see where they connect to.

[LDiCesare]

Even though I dislike water provinces, 50 and 32 should be linked considering they touch each other. It's quite distrubing visually that they are not.
I also have one issue with the map, I can't zoom out far enough to see it whole. I don't know how to change that. I managed to get it smaller changing the defaultmapzoom in the .map file, but then it would gladly ignore it and revert to full size...
17 should not be a start province. 3 neighbour provinces is really aweful.
21 is too near 7 for them both to be start provinces. It means a flying god can go from one to the other and try to dom-kill the opponent on turn 1, which is a bit mean. Whereas 54 is far from all other starting places, and therefore pretty safe. 98 is also pretty much isolated, having only one not-so-near neighbour.
Is lack of connection between 20 and 26 made on purpose? Can be explained by mountains, but not obvious at all.
Here is a proposal.
I drew black borders to show the Voronoi diagrams of the starting positions (i.e. what's inside your border is nearer your capital than anyone else) and the number of provinces inside one's "natural borders".
I think that this shows well that 17 and 21 are not good starting positions:
Proposed map on the left, my proposal on the right:
http://a.imageshack.us/img715/6289/milkandhoney3voronoi.th.png (http://img715.imageshack.us/i/milkandhoney3voronoi.png/) http://img688.imageshack.us/img688/8762/milkandhoney3final.th.png (http://img688.imageshack.us/i/milkandhoney3final.png/)
It's far from perfect. The central nations have more room due to not being able to hide in a corner, but the corners are more evenly divided (no lone nation in the north), so I think it should be more balanced. There's also less disparity in terms of number of neighbours to the capital.

[Valerius]

Wow! Now that's some testing!

Even though I dislike water provinces, 50 and 32 should be linked considering they touch each other. It's quite distrubing visually that they are not.

Definitely an error.

I also have one issue with the map, I can't zoom out far enough to see it whole. I don't know how to change that. I managed to get it smaller changing the defaultmapzoom in the .map file, but then it would gladly ignore it and revert to full size...

I've noticed the same thing with the ringworld style maps. I don't know any way around it, though I guess I could add blank space on the right and left of the map to have it zoom out properly.

Is lack of connection between 20 and 26 made on purpose? Can be explained by mountains, but not obvious at all.

That's an error as well.

17 should not be a start province. 3 neighbour provinces is really aweful.
21 is too near 7 for them both to be start provinces. It means a flying god can go from one to the other and try to dom-kill the opponent on turn 1, which is a bit mean. Whereas 54 is far from all other starting places, and therefore pretty safe. 98 is also pretty much isolated, having only one not-so-near neighbour.
Here is a proposal.
I drew black borders to show the Voronoi diagrams of the starting positions (i.e. what's inside your border is nearer your capital than anyone else) and the number of provinces inside one's "natural borders".
I think that this shows well that 17 and 21 are not good starting positions:
Proposed map on the left, my proposal on the right:
http://a.imageshack.us/img715/6289/milkandhoney3voronoi.th.png (http://img715.imageshack.us/i/milkandhoney3voronoi.png/) http://img688.imageshack.us/img688/8762/milkandhoney3final.th.png (http://img688.imageshack.us/i/milkandhoney3final.png/)
It's far from perfect. The central nations have more room due to not being able to hide in a corner, but the corners are more evenly divided (no lone nation in the north), so I think it should be more balanced. There's also less disparity in terms of number of neighbours to the capital.

I like your changes and am inclined to accept them wholesale. BTW, I did think the one bad spot was the start right in the middle. I thought about dropping some mountains in there to isolate it a bit.

[Fantomen]

Good work LDiCesare! Much better!

[Valerius]

LDiCesare, thanks for the map fixes. All changes have been made and the map has been uploaded to the server.

There is also a new zip file attached to the first post. It contains the same tga as previously, a map file without fixed starts (uploaded this to the server as well in case someone else finds it useful), a map file with the 8 fixed starts, and also a more zoom friendly alternative tga.

Adding space to the width of the map was successful in restoring the ability to fully zoom out and see the entire map at once. The quirk here is that adding space to the left of the map messes up all the province locations (my guess is that the xy coordinates are read from the top left of the map) so you need to add all the space on the right side of the map. This actually works fine with this map as we can just extend the ocean. If you want to use this version rename milkandhoney3.tga to something different like milkandhoney3old.tga and then rename milkandhoney3zoom.tga to milkandhoney3.tga - no guarantees but this worked fine when I tested it.

So now that we've got the map uploaded I set the game to start once all pretenders are in.

Reminder: when designing your pretenders keep in mind that we are starting with 3 provinces so you'll have some extra gems, gold and resources from turn 1 (well, no guarantee on the gems part).

[Valerius]

Three pretenders to go. How about we aim to start by the end of Friday? It would be nice to have this game rolling by the weekend.

[Squirrelloid]

oh yeah, i need a pretender for this game, lalala

[Fantomen]

Sorry for dragging the turn out, I'm having some kind of problem with the game crashing when opening this turn. Probably some map or mod thing, I'll solve it tonight.

[LDiCesare]

Open message to the stinking lizards of C'tis:
How dare you invade lands near the Holy Country of Ulm?
Such arrogance shall not be tolerated! Begone, lizards, or suffer!

[Squirrelloid]

Strike at us at your peril. We suggest you look in other directions for open provinces. An attack on our lands will merit swift and sure retaliation.

If you have something of value to offer, a trade might be possible, but we do not simply surrender that which we've justly claimed.

[LDiCesare]

Provinces just next our capital are ours and that's not negotiable.

[Squirrelloid]

Provinces just next our capital are ours and that's not negotiable.

Its completely negotiable. You can be reasonable, or you can die.

[Valerius]

I noticed Pythium's turn wasn't in a couple of minutes before hosting so I delayed hosting by 12 hours.

[BigandScary]

Thank you. I thought I got it in in time, but that may have just been through your help.

[BigandScary]

Well, this is unfortunate. No one is interested in peace. Oh well.

[Valerius]

Partly this is the game settings: no need for site searching, little need for research and no globals to aim for certainly encourage early fighting (this is deliberate). The first version of this game actually encouraged early fights even more since there was no expansion phase or fort building (all preset).

The other thing is that Caelum and I are actually exceeding our combined allotment of provinces, making the northern and southern edges of the map even tighter.

Expansion was certainly diffferent than a normal game. While Blade Wind once again underwhelmed, Magma Eruption didn't disappoint. Always nice to soften up charging elephants with a couple of castings before they reach your skinshifters. :)

[Fantomen]

I have to go out of town and may not be back until saturday evening, could you delay if needed?

[Valerius]

Sure. If I see your turn isn't in as hosting approaches I'll add time to the clock.

[Valerius]

Hosting interval has been changed to 48 hours.

[Squirrelloid]

reminder interval to 12h, eek eek?

[Valerius]

Sure, 12 hours it is.

[Squirrelloid]

So, i'm out of town for the weekend. Normally this wouldn't be a problem, but i forgot my external harddrive with dominions3 on it. So Valerius, can you extend hosting to some reasonable time on Monday? (I'm in GMT -6 iirc, so a 60h extension would be nice.)

err... make that 48h, not 60. Got this game's hosting time confused with momentum's...

[Valerius]

Sure, hosting has been postponed until 11:53 GMT Tuesday.

[LDiCesare]

I just sent my turn, but I won't be able to play the following turn before saturday, so if the turn after this one could be postponed, if needs be, to saturday 10:00GMT I'd be thankful.

[Valerius]

Sure, will do.

[Fantomen]

I'm done for, thanks for the game everyone. Kudos for the kill goes to Caelum.

I messed up my strategy big time by getting my pretender killed turn 2, but it was still great fun. I would gladly join a similar game in the future.

[Valerius]

Thanks for playing. Tough break about your pretender but I'm glad you enjoyed the game.

It's been action packed so far. In fact, I'm the only one who hasn't been in war, which just goes to show that no matter the game settings or how pointless it is, I will find a way to turtle.

[Squirrelloid]

24-48h extension please. Travelling cross-country and my wife is a cruel taskmaster, which is making it unlikely that I'll actually get to even look at my turns by hosting time, much less do them.

[Valerius]

Sure; I postponed hosting by 24 hours but if I don't see your turn in around 8 hours before hosting I'll add on another day.

[Valerius]

I wish Lychantropos' Amulets would get added to the list of things that aren't picked up after battle. Really annoying having my mages end up with those after a fight.

[Valerius]

I was just getting ready to send in my turn and noticed a couple of turns missing so I added some time to the clock.

[Valerius]

Still no turn from Caelum, which is very unusual since he usually is one of the first to complete his turn. Delaying hosting again.

[Valerius]

That's really annoying - I can't believe I staled again. :mad: Which meant I also didn't see Shinu's turn wasn't in and couldn't postpone hosting for him.

[Dark Kitty]

It's ok :) I should have thought about sending my turn after doing it...:doh:

[LDiCesare]

I hate it when it's alwyas the first magic duel that works for the opponent despite the odds. On average I could have killed about 4 of those damn shamans before one managed to win but I had no luck once more and got down on the first shot.

[Valerius]

That is painful, but IIRC there was a battle earlier in the game where I thought your pretender got pretty lucky, surviving 4 magic duel attempts from lizard shaman (any maybe also high fatigue in the battle?). For those of you who don't have scouts in the south Ulm and C'tis have been fighting almost the entire game. It's been a good show, though I haven't been following it as closely since attacking Caelum (C'tis' dominion keeps killing my scouts and I haven't replenished them).

Speaking of attacking, what's up with the surprise attack, Shin? If you wanted those provinces you could have just asked. ;)

[Dark Kitty]

But it would take the fun out of it:p

Plus it is time to act, or let you walk away with the game ;)

[Valerius]

But it would take the fun out of it:p

Ha! As a sneaky bunch ourselves the Vanir can appreciate that. Very well: let's fight! :)

Plus it is time to act, or let you walk away with the game ;)

Hmm, maybe so. Though I notice that while I have more provinces than you, your income is almost as good as mine and your gem income higher. So I guess if you defeat me you'll be the one who has the game won. ;)

It'll be interesting, though - I've never fought (or played) Shinuyama.

[Valerius]

We've reached turn 40 so, as per the game description, the hosting interval has been changed to 72 hours.

[Valerius]

Caelum went AI this turn. Good run, Graeme Dice, until you ended up the odd man out in the sequence of dogpiles in the north. Honestly, this will help me out by not having to deal with a human defender on Caelum's cap and other fort I'm besieging. Eriu also benefits in besieging the third and final Caelian fort.

Another benefit is that if Shin's army of thugs continues south they'll reach Caelum's cap this turn and can fight Caelum for me. ;) We've got kind of a thug exchange program going - Shinu's thugs continue their path into Vanheim territory and this turn several Vanjarls toured the Shinuyama countryside. :)

[Valerius]

I added 12 hours to the clock since I needed a little more time and also noticed C'tis' turn wasn't in yet.

[Valerius]

Sorry, I need more time again and C'tis' turn is also outstanding so I'm adding more time to the clock.

[Valerius]

Sorry for the continued delays in hosting. Squirrelloid asked me to postpone hosting over Thanksgiving and I haven't heard from him since. It looks like he logged in yesterday but unfortunately I didn't PM him until afterwards. I'm waiting to hear back (or for him to just send in his turn).

[Valerius]

Well, after all that I lost track of the hosting time and forgot to extend it again, resulting in a stale for C'tis. Sorry about that, Squirrelloid. :(

[Valerius]

I've thought it over and Bloodletting doesn't belong in this game so I won't be using it anymore. I don't have any memory of it when I was going over the spell lists so I don't know if I just missed it or thought maybe it would be ok. Regardless, it's a battlefield wide offensive spell and won't be in the next game.

Another spell I wonder about is Iron Bane. It doesn't do direct damage but is battlefield wide and I'm not sure we want to make it that easy to eliminate armor. But for now I'll still use that one since both my opponents can cast it as well as buff their own troops with wooden warriors so we're on equal footing.

[Valerius]

I'm going to need a little more time to plan for Eriu's attack. Adding 12 hours to hosting.

[Squirrelloid]

stop extending it, you're just letting me procrastinate longer =P

[Valerius]

Ok, once I finish my turn I'll walk away from the computer and not check it until after hosting time - so no last minute extensions. ;)

Anyway, at least here you're in a fight to the death - but you're killing me in Momentum as you're finally at peace and are still procrastinating. :p

[Squirrelloid]

I totally submitted momentum already!

[Valerius]

We are missing three turns (including my own) with four hours until hosting. I'm also going to need more time to figure out a defense against Eriu's VQ, given my failure to stop her dominion from spreading into my territory (wish I had jade knives ;)). So I'm adding 24 hours to the clock.

Btw, as you may have already noticed, Shin may need a temp sub or perhaps just some extra time over the next week.

[Valerius]

Well, that was embarassing. The AI Caelum kicked my *** when I tried to storm Caelum's cap. I guess it had more left than I assumed and I guess I should taken a look at what was inside instead of being in such a rush to redirect those forces towards Eriu. Now those forces no longer exist (see Van army graph). :p

Eriu, that was quite a show of force. I was wondering if you were just going to rely on your VQ - apparently not. It will pretty much put a stop to my push against Shin as I'll need to pull back in order to defend my homeland. However, there is some good news: the unstoppable Eater of the Dead (at least temporarily under the control of Van) continues his reign of terror from the previous game.

This has been a fun war - lots of back-and-forth. :)

[Valerius]

I'm going to need a little more time this turn - 12 hours added to hosting.

[Valerius]

Sorry, need more time again - hosting postponed by 12 hours.

[Valerius]

Our next hosting time falls in the middle of this holiday weekend so I've postponed hosting 48 hours, until 9:20 GMT Monday. If anyone needs more time let me know.

[Valerius]

Hosting postponed 72 hours due to the holiday weekend.

[Squirrelloid]

Ulm, do i want to know how many pearls you blew on your pretender? It looks an awful lot like 180.

[LDiCesare]

Yes, I blew up a lot. On the other hand, I couldn't do much with the gems. I mean, I can forge stuff, but I have noone to put it on. I don't think it would have helped much so I decided to try and threaten the magic duellers.
I think I'll lose no matter what, but I couldn't think of something actually clever to do with my wonderful mages.

[Valerius]

Looks like the llamaserver is still having some issues: I postponed hosting by 24 hours and it set the new hosting time 72 hours later. So I guess let's try to get our turns in a little before that. ;)

[Valerius]

Darn it, I had been postponing hosting because Shin's turn wasn't in but wasn't able to do so this time and he staled. We had a major battle this turn as I broke the siege of one of my forts. He already had his formation set as this siege has been going on for a while but I don't know if he planned on bringing in reinforcements.

Also, I've been meaning to ask what the interest level in the game is at this point. My sense is that it isn't very high. There's no point in continuing if nobody wants to. Note that I'm fine with continuing if people want to but I thought I'd throw the question out there.

[LDiCesare]

I'm pretty happy keeping fighting C'tis, even though I know the northern realms will smash us both as soon as they decide to.
I finally got rid of all the marshmasters he sent against me. Now just to finish the shamans and I can strike back with my army of steel-clad crippled infantry!

[Valerius]

Lol, that's quite a fight you two have going there. :) But I have to agree that once Shin and Eriu defeat me (as they almost certainly will) they will roll over you two. That's ok; sometimes it's fun to have a good 1 vs. 1 fight even if it does take both parties out of contention. And who knows, maybe you'll be able to fracture the Shin/Eriu partnership and manage to get back in the running.

[Squirrelloid]

Ctis is kind of crippled in this game, since all my useful spells for army clearing are post level 6. Oh well, our unending conflict has doomed us both no matter who wins.

[zlefin]

hey, we're not THAT tough up here in the north. i know my interest has been waning for some time; but i can easily keep playing, not like turns take long.

[Dark Kitty]

Darn it, I had been postponing hosting because Shin's turn wasn't in but wasn't able to do so this time and he staled. We had a major battle this turn as I broke the siege of one of my forts. He already had his formation set as this siege has been going on for a while but I don't know if he planned on bringing in reinforcements.

Sorry about that, I thought I had actually submitted my turn :doh: (I already submitted the one for this turn, just to be sure^^) (I shouldn't have procrastinated to storm that castle :P)

I have lost a little interest too, since it feels we've been playing the middle game for a long time and I don't see anyone getting a clear advantage (the graphs are a little deceiving I think), but I don't mind keeping playing either, it is an original game and we have plenty of gems to have fun with

[Valerius]

Yeah, this is a game that begins and ends with the middle game. :) It occurs to me that capping magic at level 6 and then having almost all of those spells available from the beginning of the game eliminates research as a way to get an advantage on an opponent - and to that extent increases the chances of stalemates.

I think the main thing needed to decide this war is for Eriu to go on the offensive. When he entered the war I thought I'd have to deal with him first (and quickly) since he's my neighbor, while retreating as needed through Caelum's lands when you attacked. The problem was that all my attacks on Eriu were complete failures (I really like playing glamour nations - I'm not having as much fun fighting one ;)). But he didn't take advantage and so I was able to put together the force I just used to break your siege.

You aren't kidding about having lots of gems - I can kill those shuras of yours but there's just so many of them (fully equipped, no less).

So, I guess we'll keep playing for now and see how things go.

[LDiCesare]

What a cripple fight!
Ulm and C'tis pretenders are a good match for each other. C'tis climate is quite good for growing afflictions...

[Valerius]

I was asked about taking a vote whether to continue the game, since interest seems even lower than last time I checked (this is apparent from the multiple postponements every turn to avoid stales). I'm fairly certain LDiCesare would like to continue, and I don't like to cut a game short when someone is still interested in it, but keeping it going when nobody else is interested also isn't a good solution (btw, I give everyone credit for continuing to play even though they may not be into the game). So, what do you all say?

Edit: If we do continue I'm going to stop postponing hosting unless I am asked to do so. Normally I will postpone hosting if I see someone about to stale, but in this case it is really dragging the game out and making it even less likely to ever come to a conclusion (we're probably averaging a turn about every 5 days).

[LDiCesare]

I'm still interested, but if noone else wants to continue, we can just stop it.

[Squirrelloid]

i'm obviously about to die, so my interest or lack thereof is irrelevant.

[LDiCesare]

In this case if noone else wants to continue, I think we can call the game finished.

[Valerius]

We haven't heard from Eriu or Shin but based on their previous comments and the fact that their turns have also been arriving late (and Shin staled this turn) I think they are inclined to end the game.

I'll wait a few days and then delete it from the server.

Sorry this didn't turn out to be that engaging a game. It started out promising but I think the inability to get a research advantage or even globals lent itself to stalemates (I think all the eliminated nations were dogpiled).

I did, however, have fun with my faery trodding/gatewaying Master Druid pretender. He was definitely my MVP as I'd just give a him a pile of troops and send him where needed.

[Dark Kitty]

I have lost some interest too (this is not why I have dragged a few turns however, sorry about those :P) so I wouldn't mind ending the game (or finding a sub, if people want to continue).

[Squirrelloid]

Sorry this didn't turn out to be that engaging a game. It started out promising but I think the inability to get a research advantage or even globals lent itself to stalemates (I think all the eliminated nations were dogpiled).

Not quite true, i'm definitely getting eliminated in a 1v1. Its just taken a long time.

I'm not sure the format is necessarily bad. I feel like I chose my nation poorly. Couldn't get quite enough mileage out of my dominion effects, and I failed to realize just how much my combat effectiveness depended on spells available after level 6 research.

[jimbojones1971]

Do people think its possible to revamp the concept somehow, to make it more engaging? In principle, it certainly sounded like a fun idea.

[Valerius]

I'm not sure the format is necessarily bad.

Do people think its possible to revamp the concept somehow, to make it more engaging? In principle, it certainly sounded like a fun idea.

I liked the idea as well, as I'm not a big fan of the traditional endgame. And maybe the format just needs some fine-tuning and isn't simply flawed. After all, normal games can sometimes also lose steam.

The aim of this game was to limit magic and also remove any distractions like research or site searching and just get right to the mid-game battles. In retrospect, I think putting the focus on limiting magic but requiring normal site searching and research would make for a more interesting game. I also thought about giving each nation a unique "spell of mastery" (i.e. a global) at level 8 or 9 to liven things up and provide a long term goal that could change the balance of power. Probably not from the first tier of globals but things like gem generators would be fine.

[LDiCesare]

As Ulm, I really missed a half-decent summon to equip. I mean, it's all right to spam rods of fire bolt to put on scouts and black acolytes, but it's funnier to kit thugs and SCs. I could at best maybe get a troll lord, and the national summon iron angel was unavailable.
Now, I enjoyed the game, so I'm not the best to propose a change to the format.