Helo News game related.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Didn't really want to do this but, it does represent a key element to the game and the AI does like using them as well. Because of budget constraints it's more about improving and extending life cycles on current equipment and maintaining or developing one's own defense infrastructure. Few are doing anything with new equipment though India does come to mind with their new attack helo.
My first entry is the improvement on South Africa's ROOIVALK which was grounded last November (Entire fleet.) due reliability concerns. In fixing the reliability issue they also included upgrades to it's avionics and fire control systems.
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/18049/

We are currently seeing the deployment of tank munitions in target selection as I noted on the MBT thread with the IDF and Germans so this next weapon is a natural progression of that trend for AH's. HELLFIRE II.
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/17913/

Regards,
Pat

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Thought I saved some info on India's LCH AH developed by HAL of India. It did fly again but I believe it was after April as indicated in the sources.
http://www.defenceaviation.com/2010/04/indias-light-combat-helicopter.html more info in this one. And:
http://australianaviation.com.au/india-combat-helicopters-first-flight/ just a second reliable source for reporting purposes.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/india/lch-specs.htm Good GP performance and weapons info.

Pics:
10425 10426

Regards and GOOD NIGHT!!
Pat

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

S-70i BLACKHAWK on track and displayed for the first time.
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/18100/

New heavy lift helo on track CH-53K
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/18083/

Regards,
Pat

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Please take note of the useful time-lines provided by this source in these articles.

A further more in depth article of the HELLFIRE II.
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/3567M-for-Hellfire-II-Missiles-05043/

Also an article on the ARROWHWEAD targeting system being used by the USA APACHE.
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/arrowhead-mtads-pnvs-sensor-system-06461/#more-6461

Bahrain first foreign buyer to get UH-60M designed for the export market.
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/bahrain-becomes-1st-international-uh60m-buyer-03379/#more-3379

Turkey to get A-129 AH's before getting updated versions of them designated as T-129. The A-129 has been in service since 1989 with Italy. T-129 pictogram in upper left might be of interest.
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/turkey-shortlists-2-attack-helicopters-updated-02397/#more-2397

Regards,
Pat

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Correction to my last; the S-70i is the export designed version of the BLACKHAWK.

Regards,
Pat

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Let's do some SARs or "Angels from above" as some might think them after receiving help from them.
Malaysia to receive the EC725 SAR Helo to replace their "NURIS" or better known as S-61 SEA KINGS by 2012 or 2013.
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/Malaysia-Ordering-EC725-SAR-Helicopters-06338/

Also the US is looking to replace their HH-60G PAVE HAWK in the
C(ombat)SAR area. The two being considered to date are the AgustaWestland HH-71.
http://defense-update.com/wp/20100913_hh71_csar.html
Pic:
10483

With Sikorsky and Lockheed Martin will offer the HH-60 Recap based on the UH-60M BLAWKHAWK platform.
http://defense-update.com/wp/20100715_hh60_recap.html
Pic:
10485

And you can't rescue Pilots, or extract (We never "rescue"
Spec Op teams.) SEALS, SAS or whom ever without close air support or as I like to call it, a cheap excuse to work in a picture I really like!!
10484

Flares everywhere, looks good in a picture, wouldn't want to do it for real though.

Regards,
Pat

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

The CORPS to get the AH-1Z. On 24 September the AH-1Z was considered to have completed it's OPEVAL process. The CORPS will get 189 new and remanufactured birds with final delivery to be completed in 2021.
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/18353/

Pic:
10532

Regards,
Pat

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Would have more to post now but I am saving those for what I hope will be my last one for this patch season. I hope to economize on weapon variants within a particular HELO and I have around @ least 15+ deletions in this area alone game related, since my earlier post I'm thinking ~30+ deletions. And as most know by now all supported by solid refs. To help clear unneeded refs from my favorites here you go. Germany has cleared some of this up but there are no updates to suggust they've restarted the processing of further orders of the Euro-copter TIGER helos.
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/Caged-Tiger-Germanys-Troubled-Helicopter-Purchase-06411/#more-6411

Some have asked why keep the refs in my favorites, simply for some sites as above I use do a GREAT job of updating their articles so; when I'm ready to actually use them they might in some cases have been updated since I first pulled them from the net.
I hope EVERYONE is having or had a GREAT DAY!
Regards,
Pat

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

That article was released from NAVAIR. If it flies for the USN or the CORPS they own it from the drawing board to when it gets melted down basically. You'll see the releasing source to the right of the header for any DefPro articles. DefPro (and others I use.) are just "news" agencies. Here are three of my refs from my PG 3 Patch recommendations list (On paper at this point.) addressing the AH-1Z as being discussed. I'm holding the rest of the refs until the list is ready to go, but these answer the current issue. I will re-post the last off the APC thread fro continuity.

1. http://www.defpro.com/news/details/18440/ See para.2 note the key word is {B]"recommended"[/B]. And the official release.
http://www.navair.navy.mil/press_releases/index.cfm?fuseaction=home.view&Press_release_id=4413&site_id=23

2. http://www.defpro.com/news/details/20163/ See para.1
28 Nov. approved for full rate production.

3. http://www.army-technology.com/projects/supcobra/ great overview of the AH-1W and AH-1Z programs. See para.6 which should answer the question.

See post #7 this thread.

Two factors are causing the date issues which is another reason I use DefPro and a couple of others, they don't update all their info Global Security on this topic is a perfect example of an excellent hard source that does this sometimes. The biggest reason however was the redirection to give priority to the final opeval testing and production of the UH-1Y to meet the demands of the CORPS to replace it's aging HUEY's with a more reliable lift platform.

Will be offline for a couple of days, it's a time of reflection over "things lost" for the immediate family.
Have a great weekend and thank you for patience.

Regards,
Pat

[DRG]

Thanks Pat. All the Best

Don

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Helo news:

1. SAAF having continuing problems with it's helos and decision making.
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/21939/

Regards,
Pat

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Just finishing what I started yesterday in the transfer of "raw data" from the "patch thread" to the home threads. Q&A between Don and myself along with the pictures are again, as a reminder in the "Patch Thread". A perfect example here is, how about that RNZAF NH90 TH A109 helo add? Like I said you're getting it the way I presented it.


Helo News game...

I'm going to start this a little differently see APC Page 7 Post #69 for a moment, read it carefully please, then carry on. In hindsight maybe I should've polled the issue, the only response I got came from Suhiir on Post #70. But I'm taking my shot here based on the fact no one took the opportunity to "kill" the idea since I posted it, so here goes. This applies to the USMC AH-1Z, USA AH-64D BIII and Turkish T129 AKAK for now as they are new platforms. Multi-missioned and armed in one package as normally equipped configuration per the refs and pictures offered.

Here's comes the "rub" as discussed above. As this is a work in progress the "rub" is where I left off a day ago. I thought, I would find more to delete here but there's less. I have had to make some guesses here as the USMC AH-1 helos never got designated past I believe it was the AH-1T (Only one if I remember.) in the game. So I offer the following solution. The AH-1W came into service in 1985, I'm sorry but I didn't have time to track them all down and I had to check them all manually to find 1. Which were the latest AH-1W helos to establish the "bridge" to the AH-1Z? & 2. Were the AH-1Z helos entered based on the projected earlier delivery dates? I hope I did, here goes:

A1. ADD: USMC/AH-1Z VIPER/JUN 2011/C2/M 179 20mm AG w/750Rds, 8 AGM-114L LONGBOW HELLFIRE ATGW, 2 x 2.75 Laser Guided AFPKWS (LGA) 19 Shot Rocket Pods and (2 AIM-9 SIDEWINDER AAM dropping these as I now see more clearly the game limited weapons slot issue with the helos.)/ Picture below shows this configuration. Also the USA doesn't get the LGA as they dropped the program. The PDF Pocket Guide is a must here in the Protection and TSS sections in particular. Armor protection up to 23mm rounds in the rotor section and it keeps flying is substantial as an example. Recommend that TI/GSR 60, increase FC and survivability such as IR dampeners were greatly improved and armored engine surfaces (AH-1W as depicted by M3 has been modified to this standard as well.) as compared to UNITS 502 & 503 below.
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/18440/
Bell announces that on Sep. 24, 2010 NAVAIR deems the AH-1Z operationally ready.
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/20163/
Approved for full rate production Nov. 28, 2010.
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/20437/
As above from Bell.
http://www.bellhelicopter.textron.com/en/aircraft/military/bellAH-1Z.cfm
Overview and I highly recommended checking out the PDF Pocket Guide in upper left for more detailed info.
http://www.army-technology.com/projects/supcobra/
Excellent info on the AH-1W and AH-1Z.
This needs addressing especially as these are tied into the TSS system above and with the AH-1W as well, just a recommendation anyway.
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/apkws-ii-hellfire-jr-hydra-rockets-enter-sdd-phase-02193/
Deployed on AH-1W helos now. USA dropped the program the USN was smarter here to finish it, and who says we don't take care of the Marines!?! Well sometimes anyway!?!
http://www.deagel.com/news/APKWS-Guided-Rocket-Ready-for-Production-and-Deployment_n000007266.aspx
Production ready. Accuracy to within 0.75M vice I believe the unguided accuracy was between 5M to 10M.
http://www.defense-update.com/newscast/0410/news/apkws_cobras_009042010.html
As above.
Posts: APC Thread Page 7; #69, Page 8; #70; #71 & 75. USMC Aircraft... thread (All threads page 3) Post #5. From this thread Page 1; Posts #1; #4; #7 &9.

Believe these to be the AH-1W and AH-1Z.

M1. MOD: USMC/AH-1/Use UNIT 502 to model the above A1. ADD AH-1Z VIPER.

D1. DELETE: USMC/AH-1/UNIT 503/ As noted above.

M2. MOD: USMC/AH-1/UNIT 501/AH-1 to AH-1W/End date from DEC 2005 to DEC 2010./

M3. MOD: USMC/AH-1/UNIT 500/AH-1 to AH-1W/JAN 2010 to DEC 2020 vice JAN 2000 to DEC 2005/This is the bridge unit to the AH-1Z as an improved AH-1W, REMEMBER as noted in the refs above most airframes are going to come from the AH-1W. These are improved above the levels as they exist in the game now and slightly "dumbed down" from the AH-1Z helos. Weapons same, TI/GSR 45-50, FC+, Protection etc. Though some improvements have started as noted not (all) will be included until these are sent to be finally fully refitted and RESET to the AH-1Z thus effectively ending the AH-1W series after 2020.
http://www.army-technology.com/projects/supcobra/
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/19155/
AH-1W target system upgrade.
http://www.military-today.com/helicopters/ah1_hueycobra.htm
http://www.deagel.com/Anti-Armor-Weapons-and-Missiles/AGM-114L-Longbow-Hellfire_a001111006.aspx
Overview of the HELLFIRE "LONGBOW".
Pics:

A2. ADD: TURKEY/T129/JUN 2012/C2/Vulcan TM197B 20mm w/500Rds, 2 x 4 SPIKE ER ATGW, 2 x 2.75 Laser Guided CIRIT 19 Shot Rocket Pods/Based on the (is) Italian A129I Helo.
The A129 "MONGOOSE" has been in service since 1989 and is battle tested most recently in IRAQ. It was chosen over the SAAF (DENAL) AH-2A ROOIVALK in the final round of completion. Turkey had to reopen it's AH Helo competition over the long delays in the AH-1Z program. Turkey opted out of that program in 2004, which was the only export customer for the AH-1Z.
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/turkey-shortlists-2-attack-helicopters-updated-02397/
Full program background.
http://www.army-technology.com/projects/agusta/
Same as above with more technical info.
http://www.defpro.com/daily/details/690/
Additional order.
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/10114/
Maiden flight.
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/7722/http://www.roketsan.com.tr/programs_eng.php?id=5
About Turkish CIRIT.
http://www.roketsan.com.tr/programs_eng.php?id=6
About Turkish ATGW LARAT.
http://www.military-today.com/helicopters/a129_mangusta.htm First of its kind in Europe.
Pics:

D2. DELETE: TURKEY/AH-1Z/UNITS 484 - 487/
As noted above.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/ah-1z.htm
Last section covers the above.

A3. ADD: USA/APACHE AH-64D BIII/JAN 2012/C2/30mm w/1.2KRds, 8 AGM-114L LONGBOW HELLFIRE ATGW & 2 x 2.75 AFPKWS 19 Shot Rocket Pods picture provided./ The Block III takes the APACHE certainly to and beyond the levels of the AH-X COMANCHE except in the area of stealth. The advances in electronics and bandwidth are far beyond what was achieved in the 6 - 8 years since the AH-X program was killed. The debate has already started (Some a handful of years ago.) as to which is better the AH-64D Block III or AH-1Z. I'd say it's too close to call. What I don't doubt is when they come on line, 1 will be #1 and the other #2 and #2 isn't so bad when you're on the same side.
http://www.army-technology.com/projects/apache/
http://www.deagel.com/Combat-Helicopters/Block-III-AH-64D-Apache-Longbow_a000519004.aspx
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/ah-64d-3.htm
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/apache-block-iii-program-kicks-off-as-contract-signed-02480/#ah-64d-block-III-helicopter
Poor mans preview.
http://www.army.mil/-news/2010/10/25/47148-army-enters-low-rate-production-for-block-iii-apache/
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/19087/
Approves low rate production.
http://www.deagel.com/Anti-Armor-Weapons-and-Missiles/AGM-114L-Longbow-Hellfire_a001111006.aspx
Overview of the HELLFIRE "LONGBOW".
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/arrowhead-mtads-pnvs-sensor-system-06461/#more-6461
Details some of the sensor issues I brought up above.

So now we say goodbye too:

D3. USA/AH-X (COMANCHE)/UNITS 274 - 276 & 916/
As noted above.

D4. ISRAEL/AH-X (COMANCHE)/UNIT 283./ As above.
http://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft/detail.asp?aircraft_id=49
http://air-attack.com/page/62/RAH-66-Comanche.html
http://www.military-today.com/helicopters/rah66_comanche.htm

A4. ADD: NEW ZEALAND/NH 90 TTH A109/JUN 2011/C3 P20/
With its roll on - roll off ramp it can also accommodate a single vehicle up to 2.5 tons. The TTH has "nap of the earth" flying ability. There is supposed to work done or being done to accommodate MG's for protection.
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/new-zealand-selects-nh90-helicopter-0466/#more-466
Breakdown of the RNZAF NH-90 program.
http://www.military-today.com/helicopters/nh_90.htm

That's all of them and I'll work a little closer with Don on a timeline to minimize or better to spread this stuff out for the 2011 - 2012 campaign. My many thanks to all of you and Don especially for letting me get this info through up to the end when I did. This is for all the hard work that Don and Andy do and to all the rest that work hard on the OOB's out there. But it's all for naught without the players who make this worth while at least for me to do this in the first place speaking for myself at any rate. :clap: :cheers:

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

News of the past week.

1. Chinese new transport helo type and lift capabilities unknown.
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/22242/
Pic from above source:
10864

Notice what appears to be one of the newest AH's in the upper left. It appears to be similar to the former USA CHEYNNE AH. I have been following the development of a new AH by the Chinese that might make next years list.

Note to self track and follow for the 2011/2012 campaign.

Regards,
Pat

[Warwick]

Although I can't be certain the large helo looks like a Super Frelon, it could be the AC313 which was revealed at the Zhuhai 2010 airshow which is another Super Frelon clone minus the boat-shaped fuselage bottom.

Regards,
Warwick

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

News from the past week.

1. Brazil gets the UH-60L, they will replace the UH-1H helos the Panther Squadron has been operating for almost 40 years. The question here is though the ref states these are for SAR, they could be pressed into military service in theory. Does this make it a game issue if no other UH-60 helos are used by Brazil or any other country in a similiar situation?
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/22597/

2. USMC declares the AH-1Z operational. Note picture again supports version submitted for the game and hopefully for "slot management" the "one size fits all" discussion I presented on the patch post covering it and posts prior to that. Also para 6 breaks down the the number of AH-1W RESET conversions and how many AH-1Z helos will come from new airframes. Most AH-1W helos are currently only slightly "dumbed down" from the 1Z see the patch post refs again on this.
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/22597/

Follow up? :capt:



Regards,
Pat

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

The news of the last week...

1. Well this week should prove interesting starting with this first item here and ending with the MBT thread. It looks like Lebanon will get some of my attention for the 2011/2012 patch campaign but thus far nothing to the extent overall of last years campaign :rolleyes:, ok I'll give it my best shot anyway and I promise no inputs for New Zealand!! ;) Based on one of the following refs (#2 a reliable source.) apparently Lebanon has no fighter aircraft at all, and will need some modification after I've done a little more research into the matter. I will assume the T-72 tanks are the T-72M1M which is the current Russian export model that Venezuela just recieved as well among other systems. But this is the Helo world and Lebanon is to or has gotten the consummate air assault helo with a carry of C3/P8 fully weaponized Mi-24 (Not Mi-35M export version.) attack helos.
http://www.helihub.com/2010/11/26/lebanon-requested-ten-mi-24s-russia-offers-six/
http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htproc/articles/20101125.aspx
Pic:
10968

2. This next is very confusing the way the article comes across. Awhile back (Last summer/early fall.) I reported that the ROOIVALK was grounded for numerous problems maintenance related. They were all to have been overhauled with updated avionics and sensor/weapons systems. I believe these are RESET birds similar to what happened with the USMC AH-1Z birds. If the article stands as is we got this bird wrong in the game, however I'm standing by the RESET issue until I prove myself wrong. See earlier posts on the the ROOIVALK in this thread. This is normally a very reliable source.
http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=6124554&c=MID&s=AIR

3. The CH-53K will be ready for the CORPS operationally by 2018. This helo will replace the heavy lift CH-53E SUPER STALLION and will be called the SUPER DUPER STALLION when fielded. Alright just seeing if you were paying attention out there!?! :shock:
Please note stats at the bottom this is a major improvement to the CH-53E.
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/23042/

4. HELLFIRE II ROMEO almost ready as it reaches another milestone.
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/23204/

Well I'm off to bed enjoy the rest of your weekends as mine has just begun, guten nacht! Got to keep some people honest and Mom would be so proud!?!

FOLLOW UP ON THERE'S WORK HERE! :capt:
Regards,
Pat

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Just wanted to clear up the ROOIVALK story from the previous post item #2. As I suspected they were and are still being RESET to include a new ATGW, improved FC, night fighting capabilities, TI/GSR and avionics. In total over 130 modifications were made. All ROOIVALK helos will be RESET before years end.
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/23382/
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/23380/
http://www.helihub.com/2011/01/26/denels-mokopa-missile-ready-for-market/

On the list for follow up for the 2011/2012 campaign :capt:

Regards,
Pat

[Suhiir]

3. The CH-53K will be ready for the CORPS operationally by 2018. This helo will replace the heavy lift CH-53E SUPER STALLION and will be called the SUPER DUPER STALLION when fielded. Alright just seeing if you were paying attention out there!?! :shock:
Please note stats at the bottom this is a major improvement to the CH-53E.
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/23042/

Regards,
Pat

Dang !
Apparently the info I'd gotten on the CH-53K (lord knows when I got it, worked on the OOB for like 3 years) was dead wrong as I had them available in 1996.
Probably a classic case of intended upgrade delayed by funding.
Thanks Pat !

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

News of the LW+:

1. The GAO determines the money well spent for the CH-53K.
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/23400/

2. More on HELLFIRE II and variants.
http://www.army-technology.com/projects/hellfire-ii-missile/

3. Russia to bring back the Mi-35AH, it appears Russia's military has been impressed with the performance of the Mi-35M that it's ordered it's own which are more advanced then the current versions they have flying now, among other helo news in the ref.
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_generic.jsp?channel=defense&id=news/asd/2011/04/15/01.xml&headline=Russia%20Renews%20Military%20Helicopter%2 0Force

Regards,
Pat

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

News of the LW+

1. USAF looking to retire it's UH-1 helos, yes that's correct the UH-1. Wait until you read where they're using them, that was a surprise to me!
http://www.defpro.com/daily/details/801/?SID=0219714c298fffd361191b9776308985

2. USAF helo acquisition strategy.
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/23981/

3. Australian DOD puts the brakes on the MRH-90 helo. The MH-90 series helos have had problems along the same lines in Europe as well.
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/24065/

4. USA retires the last UH-1 helos serving in Europe.
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/24113/

5. So how about those stealthy MH-60 BLACKHAWKs? Well there might be some concerns that China is going to have a look as reported in our mainstream media as well, before we get our parts back.
http://www.defpro.com/daily/details/807/?SID=3f964fad98d00f4ed686c3bf6a116162

Regards,
Pat

[Suhiir]

News of the LW+

1. USAF looking to retire it's UH-1 helos, yes that's correct the UH-1. Wait until you read where they're using them, that was a surprise to me!
http://www.defpro.com/daily/details/801/?SID=0219714c298fffd361191b9776308985

Regards,
Pat

The USMC is still using the UH-1 airframe.
They recently upgraded to the UH-1Y "Venom" configuration.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

The UH-1 was in development in the mid 50's (XH-40) and was delivered to the USA IN 1959/1960 depending on ref as the UH-1A dubbed "IROQUOIS". The series ran UH-1A - UH-1D, then in 1967 the UH-1D was replaced by the UH-1H which was the most powerful of the single engine types with the L-13 engine, also it was the most produced version. It would be "replaced" in 1971 by the twin engined (P&W PT-6 engines better known as simply "TwinPac") this was designated as the UH-1N.
I was just still surprised that the USAF is using UH-1N helos for the mission as described in the article. I think given the mission they could've scrapped up some BLACKHAWKS or LAKODAS from somewhere until they figured out what they really want flying on those bases.
Anyway, yes the original plan did call for USMC AH-1N airframes to be RESET to the UH-1Y however due to op tempo issues, force level downtime and the marginal cost difference, it was decided to go with 123 new modified UH-1N airframes to make the UH-1Y.
The first three paras of ref A covers this and more. Saved the refs because I found a couple of issues with the UH-1Y in the game that I just ran out of time to address in my last Patch Post choosing to focus on the AH-1Z, APACHE BLK III etc. plus weapons and associated other issues as you might remember. They will be addressed this time around. The CORPS makes due with what it has and finds a way to make it better, sounds like the IDF as well.
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/uh_1y/
http://somd.com/news/headlines/2006/4123.shtml
http://www.thebaynet.com/news/index.cfm/fa/viewstory/story_ID/9574
http://www.helihub.com/2010/07/19/bell-continues-to-increase-h-1-production/

Pics:
11140 XH-40 11141 UH-1A
11142 UH-1D 11144 UH-1D
11143 UH-1N

Regards,
Pat

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Based on the recent post to the Patch Post thread, I'm going to do some more clean up work.

1. This deals with the TI/GSR issue raised above. I originally brought this up in the last Patch Post and thought to do so again with more information that's now posted below. They make for good reading.
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/arrowhead-mtads-pnvs-sensor-system-06461/#more-6461
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/19280/
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/23537/

A related sidebar.
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/20902/

I will of course I will continue to track the APACHE Block III program as it could be a "game changer" as discussed in the last PP Thread.

Regards,
Pat

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Update Alert!!! Well I was within the 6 month "swag" of this country getting the NH-90 TTH. A veritable coup on my part ladies and gentlemen if I do say so myself and I do! Much needed by this country though the acquisition was delayed by problems both within during the evaluations and outside the country since resolved. Yes New Zealand has finally got a modern up to date Med. lift helo...what!?!...New Zealand isn't in the game!! Refer to Pg. #2 Post #12 or better yet Patch Post Thread Pg. #5 Post #41. In this year of the extreme amount of changes forth coming just a reminder besides fact checking you don't forget to game check as well!
This message is sponsored by CGSDAS yes the; Concerned Gamers Society for Don and Andy's Sanity of which I've done my part in reducing it :shock: with that and other :doh: moments...live and learn or plan the timing of it better anyway!?! :p

Regards,
Pat

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

OOB EQUIP. UPDATE: Turkish T-129 game fielding date 8/2012. According to these updates date closer to 1/2013, however as we're within the 6 month "swag" I recommend unless the date slips to 4/2013+ that no action be taken at this time. Second ref was one of many used originally.
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/timetable-unveiled-for-turkeys-defense-boost.aspx?pageID=238&nID=16950&NewsCatID=345
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/turkey-shortlists-2-attack-helicopters-updated-02397/#Turkish-bid-award

Regards,
Pat

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

As always I transfer input recommendations back to their home threads after allowing an appropriate amount of time for Don and Andy to address any issues while in the Patch Thread. Pictures do not transfer over-sorry. Enjoy! It's yours now.

Well it's been a couple of years I think since anything has been done with helicopters. Some of this was meant to have done a while ago but was put off to cover other areas. I just picked up from where I left off and continued the work. Don I ask for your patience as I hope I haven't duplicated any issues already addressed. It's been a tough year and hard for me to focus, literally. What's not here of importance? 1. Date change for India CH-47F still in evaluation with contract unsigned though this is India Heavy Lift Helo winner. 2. India again pending final contract agreement on the AH-64D APACHE. 3. Taiwan WILL be the first export customer of the AH-64E. So what's a AH-64E? 4. Last fall the USA had officially designated the APACHE Block III the AH-64E. These will lead the HELOS for the 2013/2014 Campaign.
Speed issues I leave to you Don just threw out some rough numbers but faster is faster. This magnifier is a PITA so let's get started...

HELOS…
A1. SOUTH AFRICA/ADD/APR 2011/ROOIVALK Mk I/RESET/ADD/EW 8/TI/GSR 60/FCS +Current factors//The Mk I has undergone significant changes beyond just avionics and engine upgrades that lead to the safety issues that grounded the ROOIVALK for 1 ½ years (See C6 below.). With the improvements to targeting systems above the systems to the above ROOIVALK the TI/GSR rating should be extended out to 60 as DENAL is no light weight when it comes to such FC/Targeting systems. Also with improved engines and avionics it’s faster, more maneuverable and a little more “stealthy” with improved IR dampeners and defensive capabilities then its predecessor so an EW improvement should be made as well.
http://www.dod.mil.za/news/news%2020...20apr11%20.htm
http://www.saairforce.co.za/news-and...ivalk-block-1f
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/23380/
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...tional-355117/
http://www.deagel.com/news/South-Afr...000008623.aspx
http://www.airforce-technology.com/news/news115257.html

A2. UNITED KINGDOM/ADD/JUN 2013/PUMA HC2/RESET/Use UNIT 574/ADD/2X7.62mm Minigun Rds UKN/EW 6/TI/GSR 40 or 50/Speed increased by ~10 hexes above current movement allowance per turn.// The focus of the RESET was to replace the engines which now generate 35% more power, replaced the cockpit controls, electronics/defensive suites with reconditioned airframes. Also refs talk about it now being able to carry twice the payload. However, I don’t know how that equates to extra troops or not. The PUMA almost became a victim of the UK’s SDR cuts, but the continued need (Afghan Ops.) to increase the available types of transport helos that can operate at higher altitudes, more varied terrain, climatic conditions and it just being cheaper then buying new helos kept the upgrade program alive.
http://www.publications.parliament.u...71213w0005.htm
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...784/#more-3784
http://www.helihub.com/2009/09/30/eu...ion-programme/
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gener...s/puma8069.xml
http://www.helihub.com/2011/06/24/fi...orce-puma-mk2/
http://www.helihub.com/2011/09/30/ra...s-of-puma-ops/
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/37257/
http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/Fa...heets/Puma.htm
http://www.raf.mod.uk/equipment/puma.cfm

A3. USA/USMC/ADD/JAN 2007/MH-47G CHINOOK/USE UNIT 293/C6/P34-50 (Depending on equip.)/Port and Starboard mounted 2xM134 7.62 mm Miniguns just aft of the cockpit & 2xM240G 7.62mm at the last set of windows Rds UKN/ADD Refueling boom to the Starbrd. Side of the nose./Based on date requested with upgrades done to this point TI/GSR 60/EW 8/FC 6/FF 6/STAB. 5 or 6//As noted above trying to get one ”current” model in for each OOB to save a couple of slots as more is to come (Also see C8 below.). SOCOM is at the top of the Special Ops “food chain” with JSOC and the various military branches having their own “SOCs”. The 160th SOAR “Night Stalkers” (Under USASOC.) of Somalia and Bin Laden raid fame provide the bulk of helo operational support to the SEALS, Green Berets and Rangers amongst others. These are probably the most advanced transport helos in the world. Of the at least 4 helos known to have been involved in the Bin Laden raid raid it wasn’t the helos that attracted the neighbors (Not until a MH-60S crashed anyway.) but the gun fire. Boeing turned over the first CH-47G/MH-47G to the Army in mid summer of 2004 in Philadelphia Pa. The first combat mission was flown in Feb. 2007 another reason for the above date. The last SLEP (RESET) MH-47E conversion to MH-47G was turned over to SOCOM on Mar. 4 2011. SOCOM is to receive a handful of new build birds still and has requested more to meet future operational needs.
http://www.boeing.com/rotorcraft/mil...h47e/index.htm
http://www.boeing.com/rotorcraft/mil...G_overview.pdf
http://www.guncopter.com/mh-47g/
http://www.socom.mil/News/Pages/fina...Paircraft.aspx
http://www.socom.mil/sordac/PEO/Rota...G_Chinook.aspx
http://nightstalkers.americanspecial...ters/mh-47.php
http://www.americanspecialops.com/ph...ranger-sov.php
http://www.primeportal.net/hangar/mi...dex.php?Page=1

A4. FRANCE JAN 2005/BRAZIL JUN 2012/MAYLAYSIA JUNE 2013/INDONESIA JUN 2014/
THAILAND JUNE 2015/ADD/EC 725 “SUPER” COUGAR/C5 P26/2 x FN MAG 60-30 250/or 1000Rd “Drums”/Optional 2 x 20mm POD mounted GIAT Cannons 180Rds/or 2 x 68mm THALES/or FORGE ZEEBRUGGE 19 Rd Rocket Launchers/TI/GSR 60/EW 8/Advanced composite add on armor is available and is used by the French. Mexico (The largest or next user of the EC 725.) supposedly has it also though not in the game. Malaysia’s are being reported to being equipped in the same manner as the French versions. Adjust armor ratings as you see fit for FRANCE and MAYLASIA/USE FRENCH UNIT 516 AS BASE//Concerning Thailand they have been very good about getting the equipment they have ordered, however, there are mixed reports about whether the contract has actually been signed or not. Based on this information I’ll leave it to you whether you wish to add it to Thailand’s OOB. This represents the Special Ops/CSAR version for the countries listed. The other COUGARS listed in the game are the “older” version AS 532 (Still in production.) which has a longer fuselage that allows it to carry additional troops, less advanced and slower, its primary function is as a troop transport. The EC 725 is a further development of the AS 532 to provide a faster (324km/hr/or205mph) more versatile multi-function platform. A lot of effort was made in the protection of this helo to include updated active and passive defensive systems such as laser warning systems, use of composite materials that significantly reduces its Radar and IR signatures. Also features a fully digitally equipped cockpit, SATCOM/NAVSAT systems to support “nap of the earth’ flying with full day and night flying capabilities and more powerful and reliable engines, because of this, the armor kit has little effect on overall speed and lift capabilities.
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/ec725/
http://www.airrecognition.com/index....sk=view&id=331
http://www.eurocopter.com/site/en/ref/Missions_174.html
http://www.armyrecognition.com/laad_...1_1404116.html.
http://www.airforce-technology.com/n...25-helicopters
http://helihub.com/2012/12/04/royal-...twelve-ec725s/
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...copters-04959/
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...issions-07542/

A5. KENYA JAN 2010/CAMBODIA JAN 2014/ADD/Z-9WA/USE CHINESE UNIT 490//The Chinese Z-9 is licensed built by Harbin Aircraft (HAMC) from the French Aerospatiale (Eurocopter.) AS 365N/DAUPHIN II helicopter. Kenya was the first export customer for the Z-9WA. This helicopter represents a reasonable balance in transport and attack capabilities, which is why this helicopter is finding and filling a niche in both the African and Asian markets. The previous version of the Z-9WA has been exported to the game countries of Laos and Pakistan. The one thing in common with these export customers is they all have unrest within and near their borders.
http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/helicopter/z9.asp
http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/...ifications.asp
http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htp.../20100115.aspx
http://www.9abc.net/archives/15281
http://www.kenyacentral.com/general/...d-afmadow.html
(See sentence just above picture on left mid article.)
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2011/0...7JM0XI20110822
http://articles.janes.com/articles/J...-Cambodia.html
http://www.khmernews.com/view/air-fo...s-in-2013/5124
http://www.phnompenhpost.com/2012122...dia-bound.html

A6. IRAQ JAN 2006/CHINA JAN 2009/AFGANISTAN DEC 2010/INDIA JAN 2012/C3 P36/ADD/Mi-17-V5/USE RUSSIAN UNIT 355 AS MODIFIED BELOW//This helicopter is the export version of the Russian Mi-8MTV5 and each represents the most advanced version of the type now flown. This version is nick named the “NIGHT NOCH” or Night Owl and was designed to fully support both day and night operations under all weather conditions and operate at higher altitudes and terrain. This is why the U.S. bought these helos for both Iraq and Afghanistan.

C1. RUSSIA/Mi-8MTV-5/UNIT 355/CHANGE/START DATE TO JAN 2000/INCREASE SPEED/10% GRATIS/EW 5/TI/GSR 40//As pointed out above these are the most advanced version of the Mi-8/Mi-17 helos. The current start date reflects the time the helo was still in final development and on the air show circuit. The major changes this model(s) received over previous ones are a all new digital cockpit giving this helo full night and all weather flight capabilities. An armored cockpit with all electrical and fluid systems similarly protected. New engines which allowed for high altitude ops, increased lift capabilities along with speed. A newer version is being tested now with newer more powerful engines. Refs cover A6 and C1.
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/mi8-17-hip/
http://www.mi-helicopter.ru/eng/index.php?id=254
http://www.army-technology.com/news/...-in-july-2012/
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/29594/
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/32530/

C2. USMC/MV-22/UNIT 599/CHANGE/End Date to JUN 2009/ADD M240G 7.62mm Rds UKN.//As it operates as a helo it was given the MG noted for ground suppression as most helos have. Designed to swing out from the bulkhead into firing position on approach and take off. See below refs.

C3. USMC/MV-22/UNIT 650/CHANGE/Dates to JAN 2009 - DEC 2020/ADD BAE GAU-17 7.62mm Minigun Rds UKN & Maintain current .50 cal.//This is an auto retractable ball turret, mounted @ the bottom of the fuselage centerline. It has an integrated FCS to include advanced FLIR and target optic systems which are RO by a crew member operated "game system" and in the cockpit as well, as one of the videos show a FLIR target screen in there. This will cause an increase in vision to about 30 minimum I would think. This is in addition to the rear ramp MG already carried on board this unit which was mounted about this same time.
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/osprey/
http://www.military-today.com/helico..._22_osprey.htm
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...-cv-22s-04618/
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/22480/

C4. USMC/UH-1Y/UNITS 322 & 323/CHANGE Dates to SEP 2008 – DEC 2010/HS to 3 vice 0/ADD TI/GSR 40./UNIT 322 replace APKWS II ASM with HYDRA 70.//The UH-1Y and AH-1Z share a commonality of parts at about 85% to reduce maintenance costs. With the advanced FLIR and BRITE Star TI systems onboard and the fact that they did not go operational until the date shown, these units should have the same TI/GSR of UNITS 320& 321. Also of note the rotors and engine housing area has the same protection against 23mm rounds as the AH-1Z (See UNIT 172.) as noted in the refs. Ref #2 has good replacement photos for UNITS 320 - 323 vice the current shown UH-1N.

C5. USMC/UH-1Y/UNITS 320 & 321/CHANGE HS to 3 vice 0 as noted above./UNIT 320 replace 50 cal M2HB with GAU-21 50 cal./UNIT 321 replace HYDRA 70 with APKWS II ASM//
The CORPS was “all in” by this time with the APKWS II ASM. See refs 7-10 below concerning GAU-21 50cal with Night Sights.
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...program-03541/
http://www.tecom.usmc.mil/HD/Chronol...early/2008.htm
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/uh1y-huey/
http://www.naval-technology.com/proj...ty-helicopter/
http://somd.com/news/headlines/2006/4123.shtml
http://www.thebaynet.com/news/index..../story_ID/9574
http://www.asdnews.com/news/30989/GA...with_UH-1Y.htm
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...0109-mcn01.htm
http://www.militarytimes.com/news/20...gau21_010410w/
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_50cal-M3M_MG.htm
http://www.navy.mil/search/display.asp?story_id=11442
http://www.deagel.com/news/Upgraded-...000009578.aspx
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...d-phase-02193/
This last ref provides an update on the APKWS II ASM with the new Mk 152 warhead that will also be used on the HARRIER and A-10besides the USMC helos, to be fielded in 2012.

C6. SOUTH AFRICA/ROOIVALK/UNITS 189, 190 and 899 - 902/CHANGE End Date to NOV 2009.//
This helo is very advanced featuring 4th Gen integrated image intensifier and FLIR systems, TopOwl sight display for integrated weapons system control. This helo is considered “stealthy” even by today’s standards. All the areas thus covered and in the refs were improved upon with the Mk I below but, the problem wasn't with the design capabilities of the ROOIVALK but in the unreliability of it’s engines (Primarily with the gear box.), safety (5 helos lost to accidents/crashes.), high cost of maintenance, obsolescence of ground support equipment and facilities and budget woes to the point that the ROOIVALK was put into storage. This was an embarrassment to the military and government which hoped to showcase this helo at the World Cup in the hopes of generating international sales. The only question I have here is should the TI/GSR be improved for the above units? Also note that the last two refs deal with the Non MK I ROOIVALK.
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/18049/
http://www.airforce-technology.com/p...-ah2-rooivalk/
http://www.military-today.com/helico...2_rooivalk.htm

C7. USA/AH-64A APACHE/UNITS 907 & 935/CHANGE End Date to JUL 2012//All USA AH-64A models have now either been sold off or have been RESET to the AH-64D BLK II model. In service since 1985this model has had a very successful run from the start of its career during the Cold War to the present. Amongst others, it was a game changer in land warfare and played its part in changing the Soviet mindset to more defensive tactics during the 1980’s. The last sixteen units to be converted belonged to the National Guard and where flown to the Boeing Mesa AZ. Plant in May 2012 for conversion.
http://asc.army.mil/web/access-army-...he-helicopter/
http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?se...cal&id=8737045
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...uration-02972/
(See the Contracts and Key Events section in above ref Sep 25/12 and Jan 11/12 entries.)
http://www.airforce-technology.com/p...he-helicopter/
http://www.military-today.com/helico...64a_apache.htm

C8. USA/MH-47/UNIT 293/Change name to MH-47E/Change End Date to JAN 2010/ADD to USMC OOB/See A3 above to include refs.//First change to simplify any future info that might cause a change to that particular helo. Second allows for the last couple of helos to be removed from service and prepped for the SLEP (RESET) Program and flight evaluations before being turned over to SOCOM as noted above on MAR 4, 2011. Third the “ADD“ allows the Player and AI ready access to the MH helos that would in reality be used by the USN SEALS, Special Boat Unit and to a somewhat lesser degree USMC MARSOC units such as Force Recon/Sniper/or Sniper Recon/DAP etc. where Marine/Naval air units are not available. Covered in related refs above.

D1. EAST GERMANY (DDR)/DELETE/Mi-24W/UNITS 125 & 907//
The DDR LSK/LV never operated this variant of the Mi-24. The LSK/LV only operated the MI-24D/P models of this attack helicopter.

D2. GERMANY/DELETE/Mi-8T/UNIT 327.// These helos were either sold off or scrapped. It should be pointed out here that the only East German piece of military equipment to see active service in Germany after reunification was the MIG-29. This is to include the “rumored” use of the T-62 (See MBT Thread Post #238.) or the Mi-24P of which You Tube and others show flying in Luftwaffe colors (See Jets and Planes but… Thread Post #96.) during test and evaluation flights ONLY. Except as noted East German equipment over time met the same fate as these Mi-8T helos.

A7. USA JAN 2013/TAIWAN OCT 2013/ADD/APACHE AH-64E GUARDIAN/Use UNIT 916/EW 10 or 12/TI/GSR 60-80/Speed 10-15%+// Well to say this is the most advanced AH out there would be an understatement, it is a game changer in the real world and in the end probably in the game upon further evaluation of the information provided. If not now (TI/GSR) later as more information comes to light. I start with quotes concerning the performance of the AH-64E over the AH-64D from ref. 3 Col. Shane Openshaw APACHE Project Manager, "I had the opportunity to fly a Block III Apache a week ago and I will tell you the performance of the aircraft is tremendous," Openshaw said. "It's fast, strong and capable. We have also made improvements to the target acquisition platform. The backbone of the aircraft is an open-system architecture with improved mission command and interoperability."
Also from Ref. 4 (It also address foreign sales most importantly Taiwan.),
During testing last year, operators in the E model were able to counter realistic air defense threats in demonstrations at Naval Air Station China Lake, Calif., says Col. John Lynch, attack helicopter manager at Army Training and Doctrine Command. He says the helicopters were able to maintain their positions and maneuver as needed and had power margin while the Block II Apaches were “shot down” in similar exercises. “The Block III absolutely frustrated these folks that operate these [air defense] systems,” he says. The added power is due in part to improved composite main rotor blades that are six inches longer and feature a new tip design for improved aerodynamic performance as well as improved General Electric T700-GE-701D engines, Koopersmith says. The first ref. as most know by now found out (About the site.) will be in subscriber and or update phase still by time this is posted. But once available will be an outstanding source concerning the AH-64E. The last ref. is useful as a check of countries that fly the AH-64A/D models.
https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com...-signed-02480/
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...o-come-380875/
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/26074/
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/34196/
http://www.army.mil/article/77128/Ap...well_in_tests/
http://www.army.mil/article/90221/Up...or_production/
http://www.military.com/daily-news/2...roduction.html
http://www.aviationweek.com/Article....-01-511015.xml
http://blog.al.com/breaking/2013/01/post_1023.html
http://www.defensemedianetwork.com/s...-now-guardian/
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...ization-04250/
http://www.taiwannews.com.tw/etn/new...php?id=2120011
http://www.chinapost.com.tw/taiwan/n...che-attack.htm
http://www.boeing.com/rotorcraft/mil...h64d/index.htm

BONUS Read:
http://www.army-technology.com/featu...k-helicopters/

Pics:
For Turkey T-129 Kenya/Cambodia Z-9 AH


France/Brazil/Malaysia/Indonesia/Thailand EC 725


Many thanks again to GORDON and LTCol. Stefan Petersen Luftwaffe Reserve and EUROFIGHTER Pilot extraordinaire.

This is it, I'll post pictures in a couple of days. Sorry not here.

Regards,
Pat

[DRG]

Thanks Pat. That's all for this year.


Don

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

If you have been to the USA and USMC Common Issues Thread by sabresandy then there's nothing new here. Work list item for the next Patch Post.

Here's what I've found just with APKWS II and with the AH-1Z. I will just highlight the issues here as good points were brought up here , but the problems run deeper as I looked into this and I don't know what happened with the AH-1Z as I thought it got into the patch as submitted originally. I'll need to check my crib notes on my hard copy for any differences as submitted. I'll further address this in the Helo Thread with credit to sabrasandy for the "scent" though we differ with Item 1. below.

1. Though APKWS had production runs (This is the date issue I believe.) already over the period as assigned to some UNITS already noted here in this thread (And others I've found.) it was not fielded operationally by the USMC until 3/12 in Afghanistan. See Ref. 1 and understand DID builds the source data into the articles, (Now) verifies status in the right side of the article and lists further and related reading at the bottom of the article. Ref 2 is my "shout out" to Canada.
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...d-phase-02193/
http://blogs.ottawacitizen.com/2013/...n-afghanistan/

1A. Affected USMC UNITS 172, 173, 192, 257, 502, 503 & 505. they should be armed with the HYDRA 70mm.

2. NAVAIR deemed the AH-1Z operationally ready in 9/10 after completing it's OPEVAL that month. I had submitted a fielding date of 6/11 based on I believe when they were deployed overseas. Ref. 3 & 4 (You'll have to click on Rotor Craft then click on H-1.) however states they became operational in 2/11. So though the game date and my date are within the "swag" there's only one thing to do and that's go to the middle or in this case the operational date of 2/11.
http://www.airforce-technology.com/p...1w-supercobra/
http://www.navair.navy.mil/index.cfm...ome.rotorcraft

2A. Affected USMC UNITS 172, 173, 192 again to 2/11 start
date. Also USMC UNIT 500 should be changed to 3/12 vice 9/12.

Refer to HELO Thread Pg.2 Post #12 from Feb. 13, 2011. Both these issues were at the time part of a much larger discussion as it referenced other Posts back to the APC Thread. God help me if this is a sign how this summer is going to go , this is on my work list now and will be moved to the Helo Thread for follow up.

Concerning the PAVE LOW the information presented is correct.
They flew their last combat mission in 9/08.
http://defensetech.org/2008/10/08/by...-hello-osprey/
http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/fac...t.asp?id=12439 Note the armament section at the bottom.
http://www.mh-53pavelow.com/pave_history.html

We have two options here in the USMC OOB... 1) Simply DELETE both MH-53 helos UNITS 313/314. ADD both the SOAR
MH-47E/G helos we fixed and added in the last patch to support both the USMC Spec Op and USN SEALS. Makes life easier for the player and will allow the AI access to them in the USMC OOB. Also USMC CH-53E UNIT 646 needs to be upgraded to the MH-53M UNIT 314 mark.

2) Just make the date change to UNIT 314, however the CH-53E UNIT 646 will still need to be updated and I can support this change. It will however cause a redundancy issue. They are the same helos only difference lies in designation and names between the USAF, USMC and USN. Option 1) requires a little more work at each end, however it is the more relevant choice.
http://www.marines.com/operating-for...super-stallion

3) The CH-53K Program is still moving along. As you know I was on this from the start, so USMC UNIT 647 will be submitted for a change in it's TI/GSR in the 50/60 range and EW (Maybe.) based on the last updates I've gotten.

This is reminding me of a story about a fisherman and his "can of worms"!?! Still not as bad as those Turkish LEO's from 2/3 years ago!!


Regards,
Pat

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

This is coming home as well with the follow up posts (2) I wrote after making this Patch submission as they relate directly to the initial submission. I believe 98% got in; is a good number here. Thanks Don!

Patch Post #1 for 2013/2014
Well it has been another hectic year. The object here is to fix mistakes from last year from my Patch Posts on Pages 11/POST #105 (1) and 13/Post #123 (2) of this thread. Some of this was self inflicted which cast a net of confusion over some other equipment issues. Also I don’t think I’ll accomplish everything I hoped to this year but I promised I would address a couple of issues that were requested by you folks out there and they will be recognized as I get to them. For reasons of time, I will not reinvent the wheel here and will copy from the original posts. That info will be in quotations with the Thread Post noted if not from one of the above. Any items from the above refs will be indicated with either the (1) or (2) as shown above next to the original equipment item requiring action. All DEFPRO references will be removed. This will also show the importance once again in tracking equipment entered with follow up use of references in tracking said equipment to the field such as in A3 and Some Helo News below.

HELOS…
C1. SOUTH AFRICA/ ROOIVALK Mk I /CHANGE/UNITS 895 & 896/START DATE 4/2011 VICE 1/2006/END DATE 1/2020 VICE 11/2009/EW 8 VICE 6/REF UNIT 897/RADIO 92 FOR UNITS 189, 897 & 901 PARITY ISSUE WITHIN DATES FOR ROOIVALK AND ROOIVALK MK1//
(1) ”A1. SOUTH AFRICA/ADD/APR 2011/ROOIVALK Mk I/RESET/ADD/EW 8/TI/GSR 60/FCS +Current factors// The Mk I has undergone significant changes beyond just avionics and engine upgrades that lead to the safety issues that grounded the ROOIVALK for 1 ½ years…”
http://www.dod.mil.za/news/news%2020...20apr11%20.htm
http://www.saairforce.co.za/news-and...ivalk-block-1f
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...tional-355117/
http://www.deagel.com/news/South-Afr...000008623.aspx
http://www.airforce-technology.com/news/news115257.html

A1. USMC/ADD/JAN 2007/MH-47G CHINOOK/USE USA UNIT 275/RECOMMEND USING SLOT 728 DIRECTLY ABOVE THE SEAL UNITS//
(1) ”A3. USA/USMC/ADD/JAN 2007/MH-47G CHINOOK/USE UNIT 293/C6/P34-50 (Depending on equip.)/Port and Starboard mounted 2xM134 7.62 mm Miniguns just aft of the cockpit & 2xM240G 7.62mm at the last set of windows Rds UKN/ADD Refueling boom to the Starbrd. Side of the nose./Based on date requested with upgrades done to this point TI/GSR 60/EW 8/FC 6/FF 6/STAB. 5 or 6//…The 160th SOAR “Night Stalkers” (Under USASOC.) of Somalia and Bin Laden raid fame provide the bulk of helo operational support to the SEALS, Green Berets and Rangers amongst others….”
Please you know I have been as pro active about the slot issue as anyone to include volunteering to cull the fighters out of OOB’s that are TACAIR heavy. But in this case and the next one below I feel we do the player and AI wrong in not having these birds, they are after all the primary source and means of their operational transport in this case the SEAL’s and other specialized USMC units. Also how many times have we had to address the ALLIES option over the years? With this item we could at least use the machine gun simile on them!?!
http://www.boeing.com/rotorcraft/mil...h47e/index.htm
http://www.boeing.com/rotorcraft/mil...G_overview.pdf
http://www.guncopter.com/mh-47g/
http://www.socom.mil/News/Pages/fina...Paircraft.aspx
http://www.socom.mil/sordac/PEO/Rota...G_Chinook.aspx
http://nightstalkers.americanspecial...ters/mh-47.php
http://www.americanspecialops.com/ph...ranger-sov.php
http://www.primeportal.net/hangar/mi...dex.php?Page=1

A2. USMC/ADD/JAN 1994-JAN 2010/MH-47E CHINOOK/USE USA UNIT 293/RECOMMEND USING SLOT 727 DIRECTLY ABOVE THE SEAL UNITS//
(1) “C8. USA/MH-47/UNIT 293/Change name to MH-47E/Change End Date to JAN 2010/ADD to USMC OOB/See A3 above to include refs.//First change to simplify any future info that might cause a change to that particular helo. Second allows for the last couple of helos to be removed from service and prepped for the SLEP (RESET) Program and flight evaluations before being turned over to SOCOM…”
Again for the reasons noted above and also use those refs here to.

A3. MALAYSIA JUN 2013/THAILAND JUN 2015/ADD/EC 725 “SUPER” COUGAR/C5 P26/USE FRENCH UNIT 520//
(1) “A4. FRANCE JAN 2005/BRAZIL JUN 2012/MAYLAYSIA JUNE 2013/INDONESIA JUN 2014/
THAILAND JUNE 2015/ADD/EC 725 “SUPER” COUGAR/C5 P26/2 x FN MAG 60-30 250/or 1000Rd “Drums”/Optional 2 x 20mm POD mounted GIAT Cannons 180Rds/or 2 x 68mm THALES/or FORGE ZEEBRUGGE 19 Rd Rocket Launchers/TI/GSR 60/EW 8/Advanced composite add on armor is available and is used by the French. Mexico (The largest or next user of the EC 725.) supposedly has it also though not in the game. Malaysia’s are being reported to being equipped in the same manner as the French versions. Adjust armor ratings as you see fit for FRANCE and MAYLASIA/USE FRENCH UNIT 516 AS BASE//Concerning Thailand they have been very good about getting the equipment they have ordered, however, there are mixed reports about whether the contract has actually been signed or not. Based on this information…”
The French, Brazilian and Indonesian UNITS have a Carry 119 as opposed to 126. Is this due to weapons configuration issues? Malaysia seems to have been missed and has ordered more of these helos since last year. In regards to Thailand as noted above we had some concerns here about the contract; it was signed finally in the late spring or early summer after being delayed. I feel comfortable with this deal being good now.
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/ec725/
http://www.airrecognition.com/index....sk=view&id=331
http://www.eurocopter.com/site/en/ref/Missions_174.html
http://www.armyrecognition.com/laad_...1_1404116.html.
http://www.airforce-technology.com/n...25-helicopters
http://helihub.com/2012/12/04/royal-...twelve-ec725s/
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...copters-04959/
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...EC725-for-SAR-
Missions-07542/

C2. USMC/CHANGE/UH-1Y/UNITS 320 & 321/HS RATING TO 3 VICE 0//
(1) “C5. USMC/UH-1Y/UNITS 320 & 321/CHANGE HS to 3 vice 0 as noted above./UNIT 320 replace 50 cal M2HB with GAU-21 50 cal./UNIT 321 replace HYDRA 70 with APKWS II ASM//The CORPS was “all in” by this time with the APKWS II ASM. See refs 7-10 below concerning GAU-21 50cal with Night Sights.”
As was noted in the intro this was a case of too much going on. This was paired with another similar entry originally directly above (Item C4) “C5”. The TI/GSR issue was corrected for all the UNITS involved here. The HS issue was missed in the “fog of war”, again these are all built the same in airframe and electronics. Concerning the GAU 21 it has been proven both on the range and in combat evaluations to be at least a 1/3 more accurate then the previously and now not used M2HB. Suhiir I believe has this weapon in her USMC OOB. It’s just something to consider for next year at least.
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...program-03541/
http://www.tecom.usmc.mil/HD/Chronol...early/2008.htm
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/uh1y-huey/
http://www.naval-technology.com/proj...ty-helicopter/
http://somd.com/news/headlines/2006/4123.shtml
http://www.thebaynet.com/news/index..../story_ID/9574
http://www.asdnews.com/news/30989/GA...with_UH-1Y.htm
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...0109-mcn01.htm
http://www.militarytimes.com/news/20...gau21_010410w/
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_50cal-M3M_MG.htm
http://www.navy.mil/search/display.asp?story_id=11442
http://www.deagel.com/news/Upgraded-...000009578.aspx
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...d-phase-02193/
This last ref provides an outdate on the APKWS II ASM with the new Mk 152 warhead that will also be used on the HARRIER and A-10 besides the USMC helos, to be fielded in 2012. Note: I believe 2013/2014 as of this writing will be better for HARRIER use will back check for next year.

C3. SOUTH AFRICA/ROOIVALK/UNIT 188/CHANGE End Date to NOV 2009/DONE/YES SEE BELOW DONE//
(1) “C6. SOUTH AFRICA/ROOIVALK/UNITS 189, 190 and 899 - 902/CHANGE End Date to NOV 2009.//This helo is very advanced featuring 4th Gen integrated image intensifier and FLIR systems, TopOwl sight display for integrated weapons system control.” And from the end of the Para…” The only question I have here is should the TI/GSR be improved for the above units? Also note that the last two refs deal with the Non MK I ROOIVALK.”
Well a little teamwork helped here with Don understanding where I was going with this originally without me asking the question; if you will; I was asking. Huh? With time in some cases newer information comes to light or was missed in the beginning. As I’ve noted in the past this was a very, very advanced helo ahead of it’s time. Focus on 4th Gen and my original question at the end. As I said Don knew where I was heading so all the above UNITS had the TI/GSR increased to 50. Except for UNIT 190 because well, it was a empty slot!! Thanks Don!!
http://www.airforce-technology.com/p...-ah2-rooivalk/
http://www.military-today.com/helico...2_rooivalk.htm

NEW ITEMS…
A4. IRAQ/Mi-35M/ADD/JAN 2014/USE RUSSIAN UNIT 943 with weapons variations as you see fit//
A5. BRAZIL/Mi-35M/ADD/APR 2010/USE RUSSIAN UNIT 943 with weapons variations as you see fit//
http://www.airforce-technology.com/p...mi-35m-hind-e/
A6. IRAQ/Mi-28NE/ADD/JAN 2014/USE RUSSIAN UNITS 370-373//
These will share the refs below. This deal was in the making for about two years now and I have been tracking it since Iraq approached the U.S. about buying the APACHE AH-64D and later “rumors” surfaced of interest in the GUARDIAN AH-64E. Apparently due to the instability within Iraq and for security issues related to the technology and other factors the deal never really got done. So Iraq turned to Russia which in trying to expand it’s influence again into the Middle East. A deal was struck in 2012 and almost came apart in early 2013 amid charges of corruption. This issue was resolved early this past summer. There was articles saying the training cycle was disrupted and deliveries were started in 10/2013 and will be completed by the end of this year for 40 of the above helos. I’m holding off on the Ka-52 ALLIGATOR and PANTSIR-S1 AA Systems; until further information becomes available on delivery dates.
http://www.armyrecognition.com/june_...m_0306131.html
http://en.ria.ru/military_news/20131...-Contract.html
http://en.ria.ru/military_news/20131...-Gunships.html
http://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-Ne...0551383926479/
http://www.janes.com/article/29741/i...35-helicopters
http://www.iraq-businessnews.com/201...n-helicopters/
http://www.dmilt.com/index.php?optio...asia&Itemid=56

Well that went alright…I hope!?! And no Helo issues were noted on the second Patch Post from last year.

Some Helo news…
Have I mentioned the importance of following up before…I guess it can get old but…
From last year in the second Patch Post concerning the GUARDIAN AH-64E; Taiwan is on track as submitted. The second batch should have or shortly will arrive by this writing.
http://www.dmilt.com/index.php?optio...asia&Itemid=56
http://www.army-technology.com/news/...-batch-from-us

Regards,
Pat
December 4, 2013

From Posts #155 & #156...

Don,
Concerning the IRAQI Helos (A4 & A6), there was no reported disruption in the training during the temporary breakdown of the deal as discussed. I didn't catch the wording error when I realized that Brazils OOB didn't have the Mi-35M. I could've sworn it was in the OOB when it was orginally discussed and submitted ~3 years ago and I checked it I thought as being there. Mad scramble for the ref and submission insued "before the (edit) clock ran out" on the matter.

Regards,
Pat

Don,
Clock ran out while researching the BRAZIL HIND. It's in there as properly local named AN-2 SABRA UNIT 903. However it should be upgraded and for IRAQ added using the RUSSIAN UNIT 943 as just submitted. Have articles that were posted in the HELO Thread saying Russia was going to buy and or update it's current fleet of Mi-24 HIND's based on the fact the Mi-35M was more advanced.
http://airheadsfly.com/tag/russian-helicopters/feed/
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/hind/
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...opters-356827/
http://mymodelplanes.wordpress.com/2...ce-for-russia/ See bottom as reported by avaitionweek.com
http://www.sldinfo.com/russian-air-p...nsive-buildup/
Bought 40 of them.

Back to bed, new days off are throwing me off my game here.

Regards,
Pat

It's how the work goes sometimes. You start seeing things that both are and aren't there.

Suhiir if you see this some of the answers you seek are in this post and POSTS 26 & 28 before this one. Just don't get "cheap" on me. ;)

One more to get home! :wave:

Regards,
Pat

[Suhiir]

The V8.0 USMC OOB has:
##############################
Unit#314 MH-47E Chinook 01/1995-01/2010 - 2xM134 Gat, Vis=40 FC=5 RF=5 Stab=4
Unit#316 MH-47G Chinook 01/2008-12/2020 - 2xM134 Gat 2xM240, Vis=60 FC=6 RF=6 Stab=6

So just need to change Unit#316 to 01/2007-12/2020 and FC=8
##############################
Unit#649 MV-22B Osprey 03/2006-12/2020 - 1xM2 HMG, Vis=15
Unit#650 MV-22B+ Osprey 01/2009-12/2020 - 1xM134 Gat 1xM2 HMG, Vis=40

Didn't include the MMG version because it's only around for a couple years and my "rule of thumb" is - If it only exists for less then 3 years don't include it else the OOB will swell like a balloon.

The best info I can find indicates they only mount the M134 if they know they're going into a Hot LZ (since it reduces cargo capacity and blocks the Hell Hole (which is used to rig cargo slings)
##############################
Unit#320 UH-1Y Gunship 09/2008-12/2020 - 2xGAU-19 1xAPKWS 1xGAU-21, Vis=40, Armor=3
Unit#321 UH-1Y Gunship 09/2008-12/2020 - 2xM134 1xAPKWS 1xGAU-21, Vis=40, Armor=3
Unit#322 UH-1Y Gunship 09/2008-12/2020 - 2xM134 1xAPKWS 1xGAU-21, Vis=30, Armor=3
Unit#323 UH-1Y Venom 09/2008-12/2020 - 1xMMG, Vis=15, Armor=2 (troop carrier version)
Unit#883 UH-1Y Venom 09/2008-12/2020 - 2xGAU-21, Vis=60, Armor=2 (observer version)
##############################
Cheap?
I may be a Harlot but never a cheap one!

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Suhiir,
I don't know what happened here but know after every patch gets released I go back to see what made it and how the numbers fell as I requested them on my inputs. The USA MH-47G looked correct to me two years ago but now I'm not so sure as it looks all wrong to me now which affects the USMC one as well. My only note I made was to address this helo for the USMC the following year, which we know has be done. They should be the same in both OOBs. Now I have work to do. Let's focus on the USMC MH-47G as it will be the correct representative version for both. I'll be split screen between USA UNIT 275 and USMC UNIT 316 to give you the correct numbers. I also did some checks against the MH-47E as well i.e. Cost etc. Which ever unit is correct is your guide for the wrong one to fix. Ready here I go...
1. START DATE: USA 1/2007 is correct. USMC 10/2008 is wrong.
2. END DATE: USA 1/2020 is wrong. USMC is 12/2020 is correct.
3. COST: USA 271 correct. USMC 311 is wrong.
4. CREW: Both USA and USMC are wrong. Should be 6 /two pilots/1 crew chief/4 gunners. Note: Originally it was planned that only three MGs would be required and 5 crew it would be changed by time it was fielded to current configuration.
5. CARRY: USA 244 is correct. USMC 239 is wrong.
6. RADIO: Both USA and USMC are @ 91. Is 92 max? And would it make any difference? If not leave it.
7. STEEL HF: USA 12 is wrong. USMC 14 is correct.
8. STEEL HS: USA 0 is wrong. USMC 2 is correct.
9. THE BONUS: The Starbrd. side refueling boom would be GREAT!! That's what separates these from ALL standard non-SOCOM Chinook helos world wide. Of course this would apply to the MH-47E as well.

Refer to Post #26 Item A3 of this thread.

I need to hit the rack good night!

Regards,
Pat

[Suhiir]

Pat,

Made corrections indicated, couple FYI notes.
3. Cost is automatically calculated when the routine is run (which it should be after any change in armament, speed, armor, etc.)
6. Radio, the 2nd digit (either 0, 1, 2, or 3 ... NEVER higher) is what's known as the "Rarity Code" 0=Average, 1=Rare, 2=Common, 3=Vary rare AI will never purchase.
9. Need a pic of a SOCOM bird for inclusion in the library.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Suhiir,
1. The cost thing is weird but, OK for the same helo I guess?!?
2. Radio issue was useful in preventing me from asking that question again. :doh:
3. Now about those pictures...
A. First a look at the capabilities that are unique to the CHINOOK in general, it's the only known helo that can operate in the fashion shown below and I'll show it's done as well in the last picture in this section. That team will ride that raft right into the helo in the first pic.
12993 12994
12995

Any real physical difference on the outside it's what's mostly on the inside with a new cockpit and updated electronics suite where the difference lies between the MH-47E and MH-47G which I think we did a pretty good job of getting done for each bird in the game. Note the following: Centerline under the cockpit you'll see the advanced FLIR System on the port side you'll see the terrain mapping/targeting system sort of like the LITENING Pod etc. carried on jets and finally the refueling boom that's unique to these SOCOM birds. First the MH-47E then the MH-47G L to R.
12996 12997


Time for bed-good night!

Regards,
Pat

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Additional pics here as I forgot how to trick the system on uploading more pictures.
Standard but latest model CH-47F for comparison:
12999
Another MH-47G:
13000
And finally to show a mid air refueling op of in this case a MH-47E for FYI only:
13001

As a side note the SOCOM birds are more "bulbous" on the bottom to allow for more fuel capacity and of course extended range as a result.

Regards,
Pat

[scorpio_rocks]

Is this any good?

http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb192/scorpio_rocks/chinookH47G_zps692c0337.png

[Suhiir]

Looks good to me scorpio_rocks.
Plan to do a dark grey/black night-ops version?

[scorpio_rocks]

Looks good to me scorpio_rocks.
Plan to do a dark grey/black night-ops version?

More than happy to :) give me a day or two

[scorpio_rocks]

Quick try editting existing "grey" Chinook:
http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb192/scorpio_rocks/chinookH47Ggrey_zps942c7959.png

Think my "talent" will run out trying a "Black" version but will give it a go

For others with more skill than I here is a nice top down drawing i found:
http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb192/scorpio_rocks/MH_47G_Chinook_zps9ab27897.jpg

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

There was some conversation about the following items...
1. The CH-53K (As of 5/14/2014 is now the “King Stallion”) has been delayed three years past the 2016 date I had earlier. It will now not reach Initial Operational Capability (IOC) until JAN 2019. Any delay (And funding is a top issue here thanks partly to the F-35C.) over the next couple of years and it'll be getting cut from the OOB.

2. As a reminder the CH-53D was retired on 2/10/2012; I had reported on this in this Thread and one other at the time. I never submitted it as an oversight on my part due to my issues over the last couple of years.
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/ch53k-the-us-marines-hlr-helicopter-program-updated-01724/

Reminder to all this sight has links built into the article and sources at the bottom.

3. I am now the "player" I'm playing as the USMC and am running an air assault against the enemies FH units that have been spotted, what arty I have is supporting my troops in another sector that's under attack and those units are supporting the attack. The air assault is my only option so with a CH-53E
with troops assigned to it to include snipers and a couple of AT teams. We lift off terrain masking as best I can. I know the true capabilities of these birds but forget what the game setting is for the CH-53E and we push on. The terrain is good but all of a sudden my team is taking fire but can't see from where it's coming from but, I should. My team doesn't make it I lose a bunch of Marines to include those sniper and AT teams. The battle becomes a draw. I go and check the CH-53E stats in my happy mood and the TI/GSR is 1/2 of what it should be-why?
I have to ask...
1. How much more would have it cost to increase the TI/GSR from 20 (I believe.) to 40 vs. the 2 squads, 2 sniper teams and 2 AT teams I just lost. Half of which were "core" units. And let's not forget the bird in this case that might not have got to the LZ but got shot down when it shouldn't have. You can substitute the CH-53K for this scenario as well.

2. The TI/GSR should be 40 for the CH-53E (I have to check but I believe the "E" was upgraded ~2008/2010 timeframe pending the CH-53D retirement and early delays in the CH-53K program.) and 50 for the CH-53K. I posted this in this thread I believe in here somewhere, but it's been posted I'm sure. Again this was an oversight as noted above, this was on my work list from two years ago after checking my files.

3. To support the above look at Post #26 Items A2, A4, A6 and C1. In order and all in the game but for Cambodia with current TI/GSR values; PUMA HC2 50, SUPER COUGAR 60 (This a more specialized bird.), and Mi-17V5 50 (Russian version Mi-8 also at 50.). That's alot of countries and Cambodia will get theirs when the "shop reopens for business". Also Post #29 Item A3 added another SUPER COUGAR this year.

I pushed to get the Tanks and certain APCs increased it took a couple of years, but I provided Don with the right data to do so. In fact where I gave him the option based on the info he went with the higher TI/GSR. Most players will gladly pay more and as I've noted elsewhere so will the AI.

Regards,
Pat

[Suhiir]

1. The CH-53K ... is now the “King Stallion” ... Initial Operational Capability (IOC) until JAN 2019.

2. ... CH-53D was retired on 2/10/2012

You just had to post this later the same day I released an OOB revision didn't you?
*mutters about f-ing squids a while*

... The terrain is good but all of a sudden my team is taking fire but can't see from where it's coming from but, I should. My team doesn't make it I lose a bunch of Marines to include those sniper and AT teams. The battle becomes a draw. I go and check the CH-53E stats in my happy mood and the TI/GSR is 1/2 of what it should be-why?

Par for the course.
You will NEVER "see" opposition infantry until they fire on you (and often not even then) at a range of 1-2 hexes, pretty much guaranteeing a hit on their part.
ALWAYS send a well armored attack helo first to "clear the way" for troop carriers.

No TI was a design decision in order to try to keep the unit cost reasonable as this is a transport not attack helo, giving it TI would increase the per unit cost 23%.
AND would have zero effect on the oppositions ability to "ambush" it at 1-2 hexes.

[shahadi]

Z-key baby, keep your units close to bring effective suppression. Then the enemy units will appear plain as day to your guys.

Piggy back on what Shuiir says, yeah my transport helos always roll with attack helos.

So much for "God view" eh?

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Well I'll come back to those last couple of posts at a later date, but Don would insist I play nice and those folks put in a more than "honest days" work out. But I was looking in on one of my go to let's start the ball rolling sites and came across this AH that it's rotor blade configuration is still beyond what's flying now as taken from the ref. "During flight most of the engine power went to the pusher propeller, and only 20-25% of power was delivered to the main rotor. This gave a top speed of about 390 km/h and ability to reach such speed at extremely low altitudes. Currently such design and is still used only on experimental helicopters.". That represents simply a highly efficient helo. And it flew (10 prototypes were ordered from Lockheed Martin.) in 1967!!
http://www.military-today.com/helicopters/ah_56_cheyenne.htm
13088

13089

Don't know about you but the cockpit area sorta reminds me of the OV-10D BRONCO.

I stated years ago the USA would get back into the guided 70mm rocket business after dropping it and "my" USN being smart enough to continue funding it under the APKWS-II Program which we know has proved itself very successfully in combat. But it has to have a catchy name so the USA is calling it the TALON. I believe it might also carry a slightly larger warhead to give a better anti-armor capability though I can't remember for sure from earlier readings but not being fielded or submitted so that can wait. It should be operational soon but, here's an update as I've been tracking it's development.
http://www.army-technology.com/news/newsraytheon-launches-talon-laser-guided-rockets-from-md-530g-helicopter-4332429

Might as well do it now; to address the last set of responses I would respectfully recommend from the Main Forum...Helicopter Armor Thread Posts #35 & #44. The rest will be done by PM.

Regards,
Pat

[Suhiir]

Well according to what I see the Talon is apparently the APKWS-III.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmABY-katwg
http://optronique.net/defense/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Raytheon_LGR_TALON_datasheet.pdf

And features interchangeable warheads (no info on them).

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Ah but look what the table on the left of ref. 2 says under "Benefits" Item #3. The USN didn't name it but what it is APKWS-II. Raytheon is saying the benefit of TALON is better then APKWS-II. As I've stated the USA dropped the program years ago and the USN picked up the ball and ran with it without a program name change.
Also from ref. 2 "This LGR is a precision weapon that exceeds the Advanced Precision Kill Weapon System II (APKWS II) specifications. It fills the critical operational capability gap between unguided rockets and guided heavy anti-tank missiles." - on TALON.
And as I posted the TALON as per your refs it is indeed a RAYTHEON product. But also as I've posted for years and recently on APKWS-II it is a BAE product.
But to be sure so I'm not confused... ;)
http://www.baesystems.com/product/BAES_051993;baeSessionId=wvZWTp5LWwLW9nSrsxXrmTLnZ BvLWhMgShX4LYDpjgph4HJt4CyG!571414082?_afrLoop=166 398535904000&_afrWindowMode=0&_afrWindowId=null#%40%3F_afrWindowId%3Dnull%26_afr Loop%3D166398535904000%26_afrWindowMode%3D0%26_adf .ctrl-state%3Dhabtfjjbj_89

And nothing said about the AH-56 how :(.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[Suhiir]

Good point on Raytheon vs BAE, that's probably the major difference between Talon and APKWS-II.
No doubt there are other differences but they're probably insignificant in WinSPMBT terms.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Nothing new here, transferred from the below Thread for my own purposes.
V/R
Pat

Fallout Re: Helicopter armor
Things not talked about...
1. Using helos like tanks you need to terrain mask them where you can. I'm willing to bet a 1/3 of the players go charging in. The assault aspect is more Cold War then anything where NATO had a distinct disadvantage in numbers. More finesse is needed in the modern battlefield.

2. Like on map arty, don't hover or stay in the same area more then a couple of turns. If you do you deserve what you get...shot down or damaged normally. And to follow through, your arty will come under fire normally by mortars first and the big guns next for the same reason. AI hates on map arty.

3. To the main topic as started...Look-down TI/GSR is much more effective than "look at" TI/GSR. Height of eye is a huge advantage. In my world if I'm moving my helo in a "search mode" (Segments of say 6-10 hexes.) where I suspect enemy are, and it comes upon the enemy unit(s), especially if moving, the helo should have the advantage. It is after all actively seeking contact and the "finger is on the trigger". If you fly across the battlefield then as is in the game your both in that "ah poop" mode as is now.

4. Helos for about the last 20yrs. or so have more redundant systems on board, also more recently within the last maybe ten years your seeing these systems protected by armor as well. Mi-35is protected against 35mm or 37mm rounds the AH-1Z is protected against 23mm rounds. Transport helos have add on armor plating added when operating in combat zones (Belly area.) plus what I've already noted above.

5. Defensively...They are quieter, faster and more maneuverable, have as much EW as a jet in many cases with full defensive suites to include chaff and flares such as "Angel Fire" this includes transports. Don't believe me, I'll provide all the pics you want upon request of course.

6. I'm not asking to see my helo going spinning around the screen, but crew survivability has always been an issue with me here. All helo pilots learn to auto-rotate their birds and generally can safely land them. In urban or mountainous terrain the odds go down significantly however, this is better then the zero chance they have now for crews and passengers, though not helos the point can still be made, a bridge in France comes to mind right now known as "Pegasus" if you'd read the history it would support my point here. This is to my mind a major issue, truth is many crews live to fly another day and troops survive to fight. The crew issue goes to experience level of crews directly not unlike tank crews in general.

7. Attack Helos: Save slots and alot them as in real life. I can think of at least 10-15 countries this can be applied. You want them playing the "big boys" then you should pay for them as the real "big boys" use them-in pairs. Developed countries since Vietnam have flown attack helos in pairs to be mutual supporting for over-watch and targeting purposes. What's to be gained besides saving some slots? Well maybe the player will take better care of them if it costs more to use them. And for the player (And AI.) well after they pay for them they can still use them how ever they want. Not much downside if you think about it. But if you pay attention to the AI's general use of Attack Helos, it tends to keep them paired and mutually supporting each, based on my years of playing against the AI.

8. RTB part of the game. Some minor tweaking before they do it maybe. Just "freezing" and running due to suppression not so sure. I think from what I've read and just in general as a thought better to go home with empty (Or near empty.) weapons racks. As the game operates now though it seems more experienced crews don't RTB as soon as less experienced crews. Is this a faulty observation on my part?

9. Finally they are not invincible. A hit to the tail rotor that causes damage to it, you won't be in the air long, and it will be harder to auto-rotate down. It is for instance felt that the crew of "Super Six" could've survived the RPG hit they took but what killed them was the crash site in a narrow alley and wall they ended up hitting.

Auto rotation can be accomplished at altitude ref. provided on technique and video shows a S-92 Mil. transport at max. payload weight doing it.
http://helicopterflight.net/autorotation.htm
http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=...7400CD7C6DFA5E

My thoughts for what their worth.

Regards,
Pat
Last edited by FASTBOAT TOUGH; 01-12-14 at 03:23 AM..

[Suhiir]

1. Even in the Cold War only the suicidal charged in. Think Vietnam, they flew high getting to the LZ area because the NVA/VC AA was virtually nonexistent then low as low as possible near the LZ.

6. No way the current game can model crew survivability for helos.

7. ALWAYS buy Attack Helo's in pairs. Use placed well back to draw fire while the other waits till it's safe to pop-up and fire. When one is out of ammo swap roles.

8. Again the current game model won't allow damaged helos to do anything but run for home.

[PvtJoker]

8. Again the current game model won't allow damaged helos to do anything but run for home.

Which is pretty much what they will do in real life, as shown by the (in)famous incident during OIF. Any more than light damage and an attack helo is a mission kill. The same incident also showed what knowledgeable people already knew: even modern attack helos can be damaged by rifle caliber fire. The tail rotor is the most obvious vulnerability, but it's not the only one (if it was, everybody would be using Kamov style dual main rotors).

Basically, when marketing material says that an attack helo is protected against caliber X projectiles, it means that the armored areas can withstand a couple of hits by said caliber HE shells (or API in case of =< 14.5mm machine guns) and the aircraft can still fly home. It does NOT mean AFV style protection, which means that you can fire a large number of rounds at the vehicle and expect the armor to stop them all no problems.

[gila]

8. Again the current game model won't allow damaged helos to do anything but run for home.

Which is a very good reason to never buy them,Costly AT Helos rarely survive the battle, game wise an unwise purchase,but those into them can get some early kills then the man pads or stray mmg get them retreating or knocked down:shock:

[Mobhack]

8. Again the current game model won't allow damaged helos to do anything but run for home.

Which is a very good reason to never buy them,Costly AT Helos rarely survive the battle, game wise an unwise purchase,but those into them can get some early kills then the man pads or stray mmg get them retreating or knocked down:shock:

Until you have large areas to cover on big maps. Not much cop on postage stamp battlefields, invaluable as the battlespace expands.

"Attack" helos are simply extremely fast tank destroyers that can relocate within your own side of the map as desired, and return to the ammo park to resupply tout suite. Think of the WW2 M18 hellcat, but turbocharged. Or naval battle cruisers - can dish it out but cannot take it.

What they aren't good for is going beyond your own front line, unless the opponent is primitive - and even then its a bit of a gamble if you aren't super cautious and don't have scout choppers to advance along the proposed route.

So stay well back in your zone, look for AAA weapons and kill those with other means (while taking cover yourself) if they show themselves (A shedload of arty usually does that trick).

If there is no credible enemy AAA - then you can it up high and see for miles while dominating the battlefield.

If the enemy is infantry-based then scout choppers with decent (TI) vision are better. Use to spot for the shedloads of arty you brought along - scout choppers are arty spotters.

Transport helos are brilliant for relocating leg infantry sideways in your own zone, on a large map, using terrain masking. But again any kamikaze charge into the enemy's rear can end in tears. Transport helos are super-fast trucks, is all.

[whdonnelly]

Not sure speed is everything, but there is (or will be, maybe)this

http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/the-270-mph-sikorsky-s-97-raider-is-the-batmobile-of-th-1641651839/+barrett

[Suhiir]

I play with large maps because I like some maneuver in my battles (by myself and the AI) and I like to have 3-4 turns before I run into the opposition (and the naps are still small enough AI infantry forces get to the battle ... admittedly usually after most of their armor/APCs are dead, but they do take part). I also set the AI NON-tank heavy because I prefer more realistic force compositions. Yeah, at a key point armor should, and would, be concentrated to make a break thru, but I'm not playing scenarios where I'm representing a small part of a MUCH larger battle.

I find that a pair of scout and two pair of attack helos are invaluable, but then I also buy a LOT less armor then most folks (one platoon per battalion sized MEU) and an Attack helo is comparable to a tank in terms of point cost. So helos make up for my lack of tanks. This is of course problematic vs higher-tech opponents (with VIRSS and to an extent reactive "armor") but that's why I always buy ammo resupply units.

I also use transport helos regularly (tho I'll admit I've upgraded all but the very early (pre 1960s) models to 1 armor) and find it useful to drop an infantry company on, or near, some hard to reach bit of terrain.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

The next two are updates as well. For the first on the APKWS II, I have already taken for action of adding to the Jets and Planes list the Jordanian gunships and the helos adding the TIGER AH's with the new rocket pods (Note: These are the Forges de Zeebrugge’s FZ90 pods already in the game on the French + others we added a couple of years ago.) mounted.
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/apkws-ii-hellfire-jr-hydra-rockets-enter-sdd-phase-02193/

The next will precipitate a change also for the Gulf States OOB (In this regard for the UAE.) to not only add the TALON but I'm willing to bet the APACHES as well. That's right, the TALON will go to the UAE before the USA gets them. The UAE is a co-developer of the TALON rocket.
https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/guided-hydra-rockets-program-halts-new-entries-03157/

I'll be outta here for a week to reward for my "Dr./Nurse" CINCLANTHOME during my recovery and 28 years of putting up with my cra...poop ;). See you guys have been lucky it's ONLY been almost 7 years for you...and I heard that :rolleyes:!!
Have a great week/weekend!!

Regards,
Pat

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

For a friend, just one of many but better than most...
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/uh1y-huey/

Regards,
Pat

[Suhiir]

I can find references to the USAF getting the UH-1N in May 1971. But nothing to indicate the USMC got them earlier then 1973.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Got to get ready for work...but these should support 1971 and retirement of the UH-1N/HH-1N (USN version.). The retirement matches the USMC AVPLAN 2030 I recently posted in the Jets Thread.
http://www.janes.com/article/42729/uh-1n-huey-retired-from-usmc-service
http://www.navair.navy.mil/index.cfm?fuseaction=home.displayPlatform&key=0EA076DB-51B2-4CAB-B368-813E90688F26

Regards,
Pat

[Suhiir]

Still can't find anything indicating when the USMC got the UH-1N, but I'll go with 01/1972.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

I know where to go, you'll have seen the ref before (LAV-AD?) but the website has changed. I'll see if I can recover it and still access it.

Regards,
Pat

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

As I thought...I've used the following in the past but MCU was getting ready to reorganize their library and re-digitalize their data as well. You might recognize the format as I believe I used this data for the LAV-AD when "correcting" it (Check the Fastboat Patch/or SPAA Threads. However the link might be dead as stated above.)
Click on 1982 see January 13th where it's noting the first F/A HORNET is being assembled you'll find nuggets concerning equipment etc. on this page by year throughout. This was one of my best resources (AV-8 comes to mind now as well.) when concerning my research on USMC equipment.
https://www.mcu.usmc.mil/historydivision/pages/Frequently_Requested/Chronology.aspx
I'm toast now I have other resources to check on concerning the UH-1N. HOPEFULLY this won't turn into a "French 105mm campaign" :eek: one just never knows :rolleyes: - GOOD NIGHT!!

Regards,
Pat

[Suhiir]

Well this is what I've found.
Since the first deliveries were apparently sometime in 1971 I'll stick to the 01/1972 operational deployment date since I can't find any definitive information.

"211 UH-1N ( Bell 212 ) were ordered for USMC service in late 1960s. Six ( plus 2 conversions ) were for presidential use (Marine One) as VH-1N and are listed separately. Many were later converted to HH-1N and turned over to US Navy as land based rescue/utility machines.
Deliveries of the twin huey (HH/UH-1N) to US Navy/USMC began in 1971. The last, and newest, UH-1N Iroquois was delivered in January 1979."

"Originating from a 1955 U.S. Army contract for a medical evacuation helicopter, the first Navy/Marine Corps Iroquois variant, the UH-1E, was first procured in 1964. Deliveries of the current version, the HH/UH-1N, began in 1971."

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

According to the next the first unit was manned in June 1971 and stood up by 1 July. You're in the "swag" even Oct. 1971 would work based on previous HUEY flying/maintenance experience. More an issue for the mechanics than pilots in switching to the twin turbo engines. This would be up to you-just wanted to finish what I started.
http://books.google.com/books?id=ES48urDKXG8C&pg=PA158&lpg=PA158&dq=what+year+did+the+usmc+operate+the+uh-1n+helicopter?&source=bl&ots=LyfG5kHg6C&sig=WZ6zannprD7bowcEYZZeMQ8QlVk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=tDZhVIbsIMWcNsyBg_gH&ved=0CF8Q6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=what%20year%20did%20the%20usmc%20operate%20the%2 0uh-1n%20helicopter%3F&f=false

Regards,
Pat

[Suhiir]

That book reference was just what I needed ... definitive dates!
Yeah, would have taken till October to get enough of them and get folks up to speed.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

During the time of my "problems" I've had some time to think about things in particular of helos within the game and how I've submitted them. Combining game and real life realities and limitations, I've been wrong in some of my past submissions, there has to be some "ascendancy" here driven by the fact that a country is not going to sell it's top equipment with if you will "with its full kit" currently the AH-64E GUARDIAN enjoys a TI/GSR of 60 which is game limited and fine for the U.S. it's their/our "baby" but with the possible exception of the UK, for TAIWAN and SOUTH KOREA definitely not especially given the "neighborhood" they'd be operating in the same would be true for INDIA as well who's the newest customer to receive this helicopter and the following ref. shows what system (FCS Radar) they've approved to get which is making my point for me.
http://www.janes.com/article/59908/aaaa-2016-india-to-get-longbow-radars-for-apaches

That radar was on the AH-64D LONGBOW which in the USA is/has already started being converted to the AH-64E GUARDIAN. This (game) can't be just about parity without a dose of reality to temper it. Countries have advantages and disadvantages and are we not paying for that when you buy/choose a certain piece of equipment?

In my mind right now U.S. stays at 60, UK 55 and the rest 50 TI/GSR which would eventually in POLAND as well once their program funding issues are resolved. The current USA version is already in a BLOCK III configuration.
https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/apache-block-iii-program-kicks-off-as-contract-signed-02480/
http://www.bga-aeroweb.com/Defense/AH-64-Apache-Longbow.html
http://copevents.pmi.org/pmosymposium2015/docs/default-source/presentation-pdfs/278103-ah-64e-brochure_final.pdf?sfvrsn=2

I'm not however saying the U.S. "owns the block" Russia, Germany/France, Italy, Israel (That has a very long history of buying equipment and improving them on their own.) and South Africa (Yes the ROOIVALK when it first appeared it was considered for a while the most advanced helo in it's class. After being taken out of operational service for 18 months the much improved version the ROOIVALK MK1 (Game entered.) still ranks among the best flying now.) the last two countries being the "David's amongest the Goliath's". Original ROOIVALK...
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/denel-ah2-rooivalk/

Not much on specifics on the MK1 either just maybe SADF doesn't what to talk about it much beyond the "generalities" of that helo. ;)

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Well this really again supports what I wrote in the above Post and answers as well which FCS the South Koreans would/will be getting for their APACHE GUARDIAN AH-64E helicopters. Like India, they'll also be receiving the LONGBOW system.

I would suspect this is how it'll play out for the present and further, other foreign buyers down the road in regards to the FCS and with the EW rating possible reduction.
www.janes.com/article/63316/boeing-commits-to-supporting-apache-sales-to-korea.

Tonight I'm beat, so I'll think take care.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[IronDuke99]

The most likely nation to have top level US kit with all bells and whistles is UK (and sometimes Israel)?

I know there are a lot of backroom negotiations going on regarding F35 and core computer codes, between the US (and Lockheed Martin) and the UK.

UK being the only first tier partner in the aircraft understandably want the full code for modification and service reasons. The USA (actually mainly LM) are reluctant to pass it along for reasons that seem far more related to potential profit than security.

[Suhiir]

Gotta love the Military-Industrial complex!

[scorpio_rocks]

The most likely nation to have top level US kit with all bells and whistles is UK (and sometimes Israel)?

I know there are a lot of backroom negotiations going on regarding F35 and core computer codes, between the US (and Lockheed Martin) and the UK.

UK being the only first tier partner in the aircraft understandably want the full code for modification and service reasons. The USA (actually mainly LM) are reluctant to pass it along for reasons that seem far more related to potential profit than security.

Seems a bit galling when they have allowed Israel access to the code and helped IAI and Elbit to develop Israel's own electronic warfare, missile guidance systems and helmet mounted displays for the F-35I.

[IronDuke99]

The most likely nation to have top level US kit with all bells and whistles is UK (and sometimes Israel)?

I know there are a lot of backroom negotiations going on regarding F35 and core computer codes, between the US (and Lockheed Martin) and the UK.

UK being the only first tier partner in the aircraft understandably want the full code for modification and service reasons. The USA (actually mainly LM) are reluctant to pass it along for reasons that seem far more related to potential profit than security.

Seems a bit galling when they have allowed Israel access to the code and helped IAI and Elbit to develop Israel's own electronic warfare, missile guidance systems and helmet mounted displays for the F-35I.

Israel has a strong political lobby in the US that the UK, and other nations, lack.

On the F35 I suspect UK will get most, at least, of what it wants, if only because the two large new UK carriers, that depend on F35, are going to be important assets in a world with constrained numbers of US Carriers and an expansionist China set on getting a blue water navy and becoming a important carrier player.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Well I've been keeping an eye on this issue for quite sometime now. To be clear except for some the National Guard might (Older model OH-58 KIOWA A/C) have, the OH-58D KIOWA is the current version flown by both the USA and National Guard. Based on the following refs. The USA will officially retire them when the 1st Squadron, 17th Cavalry Regiment of the 82nd Airborne Division returns to Fort Bragg N.C. probably in June 2017 as these types of rotations are GENERALLY one year unaccompanied tours.
https://www.stripes.com/news/us/fort-bragg-soldiers-in-korea-trained-and-ready-including-for-north-korea-1.446206

They are currently involved in an exercise in South Korea which more then likely has been extended due to N. Koreas very recent ICBM missiles launches (Attempts).
https://www.stripes.com/news/pacific/kiowa-warriors-pass-torch-to-apache-attack-helicopters-in-south-korea-1.450886

So where does that leave us? Well the OH-58D for the USA again will be retired as noted above by JUNE 2017 at the latest I would suspect. The National Guard will continue to fly the OH-58D and receive some from the USA as well, this to meet their combat requirements, more on that below. Others will be put into storage and sold off to foreign countries as has already happened.

So Greece again as I noted with the F-16V could do worse as again the OH-58D KIOWA has seen some upgrades.

Ah but everyone is concerned about what's happening with the OH-58D, can the AH-64E GUARDIAN/or AH-64D LONGBOW handle the interim scouting mission (Yes the 64E especially.) yes they can and finally what will the future be? Well not to sound "all doom and gloom" it won't matter because game wise we'll never see it by 2025.

Why would I bring this up? Because nobody is talking about the OH-58F which became operational in 2013. The problem is the USA has them however not in enough numbers to cover the USA requirements to fulfill the mission, ergo back to the AH-64D/E to fill the gap. A quote from the first ref. below it. The "emboldening" is mine...

"In its FY 2015 Budget, the Army decided to retire all Kiowa Warrior A, C and D models. It is unknown whether it will also retire already upgraded OH-58F models." So far nothing is out there to say they are going to officially. If it stays that way the OH-58F upgrade was intended was intended to keep those "birds" relevant to 2025. From the data I can get I believe the USA has about 30 to maybe 40 of the OH-58F models before all funding was cut out in the FY 2015 (Oct. 2014 - Sep. 2015) Budget. Full rate production and conversion has been canceled beyond the above craft for the OH-58F.
http://www.fi-aeroweb.com/Defense/OH-58-Kiowa-Warrior.html
https://www.army.mil/article/102288/Kiowa_Warrior_upgrades_alter_aircraft_profile
http://www.military-today.com/helicopters/oh58f.htm
http://helihub.com/tag/oh-58f/

And note this is not the AVX proposed upgrade program which is totally a separate issue from the OH-58F upgrade.

More on the OH-58D...
https://thetacticalhermit.com/2016/03/23/military-defense-news-us-army-to-retire-oh-58d-kiowa-warrior-scout-helicopter-by-2017/
http://abc11.com/news/armys-kiowa-warrior-helicopters-fly-in-last-formation/1293251/
http://www.janes.com/article/59599/us-army-kiowa-retirement-proceeds-with-final-training-flight
http://www.militarytimes.com/picture-gallery/military/2016/04/18/army-helos-beat-guinness-world-record-for-largest-formation/83186360/
http://www.usar.army.mil/News/Display/Article/935176/seasoned-i-corps-aviators-take-flight-with-an-old-friend-one-last-time/

And finally the UH-72A...
I'm going to keep this simple it's a game "non-starter", why? Well the last I checked we don't use helicopter ambulances in the game ICO the USA. Second the somewhat "militarized" model is used by the National Guard (NG) for Homeland Security Missions which is clearly spelled out by the manufacturers ref. below and the rest. Of the 385 "birds" allocated for already over 200 are destined for the NG. The USA is seeking to increase the final number to 415 which, I believe has been approved.
http://airbushelicoptersinc.com/products/UH-72a-product.asp
http://uh-72a.com/about/milestones.asp
http://www.military-today.com/helicopters/uh72a_lakota.htm
http://www.fi-aeroweb.com/Defense/UH-72-Lakota-LUH.html
http://www.army-technology.com/projects/uh-72a-lakota/
http://www.military.com/equipment/uh-72a-lakota
https://www.army.mil/article/137585
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AT9Dy3ToAw

Lastly and sadly we recently lost a fine officer that some refer to as "The Father of Air Assault"...
https://www.stripes.com/news/us/retired-lt-gen-hal-moore-ia-drang-battle-commander-dies-at-94-1.453672

To summarize... I haven't checked but, it should be obvious if the UH-72A LAKOTA is in the game then we can celebrate by having more slots available! Always a good thing. The OH-58D I still feel JUN 2016 is a very viable retirement date based on the above. And I suspect the OH-58F will end up being an add from around JAN 2014 - DEC 2025. I'm "splitting" the difference here on the start date, due to the dates I'm seeing on the web as noted by a couple of the refs. above as well. She'll see far w/TI/GSR 60.

Pictures...
14608 14609

14610 14611

Well it's "hump day" so I'm off to bed so, a good night or morning to ya!!!

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[DRG]

Yes BUT Pat the USA OOB INCLUDES a large number of National Guard units and formations so why would I remove something still used by them to open up slots I don't need ATM ?

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

If we're talking about the OH-58D, just had it in my head that all NG units were separated/or designated from regular USA units in the OOB. What can I say but it's been a longtime since I've "been in the game" and you know what I mean. But if you think that's good wait until my next post!?! :D

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[Suhiir]

Might try my little "trick" of using an "*" in the name of NG only units the way I do USN ones in the USMC OOB.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Well I've watching this one for years now just to see it get to this point but, as JANE's is reporting CH-53K will reach Initial Operating Capability or IOC in 2019 but as I pointed out with the F-35B this really means nothing. The important factor is in achieving Full Operating Capability or FOC and that unfortunately won't be until 2029. The CH-53K has paralleled the F-35 program in many ways with technological, material, testing etc. delays and another factor is related. Simply they're the design is from the ground up and these example completely new airframes. And allowing for inflation, actually costs more then the F-35A.
http://www.defensenews.com/articles/breakdown-of-ch-53k-costs

Oh I hear you, well what about the AH-1Z VIPER or the UH-1Y VENOM how did they reach FOC so fast? The answer is one of the easiest response to any question I've faced out here, simply speaking, architecturally the airframes were already available just somewhat modified for both. Very few as compared the total number to be manufactured were brand new airframes but mostly modified existing ones. It does both save time and money by using a known operational and battle tested airframe.

We've already had to push FOC back a couple of times for the F-35 and I suspect it'll have to be done at least once more by a year or two. That being said, it'll still get in the game by 2020. But for this helicopter it just doesn't bode well when that date is four years past game end time. And very rarely do these issues go backwards in time, though 2029 would be a conservative guess by and let's not fool ourselves in thinking it comes from anywhere other then NAVAIR.

I've invested a fair amount of time with this project and will continue to watch it but, I can't say it looks good for the CH-53K right at this time. And most know there's no bigger "vocal" advocate for these in the game or in their play-ability within it. That hasn't changed.

Here's the ref./the next is also a "fresh" story on the F-35 they hit a "milestone" and wait to you see what it was you might just go...huh!?!
http://www.janes.com/article/69314/ch-53k-awarded-milestone-c-production-and-deployment-decision
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/usaf-completes-last-tests-for-f-35-ejection-seat-435792/

FOC is in no way any different in meaning than Fielded/or Fielding is to land equipment either in this game or the real world.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[Suhiir]

My real question is ... what do they plan to do with the CH-53K?

In the Navy/USMC the CH-53 is almost always used as a heavy cargo and mass troop transport not a "combat assault" one ... that's what the MV-22 is for. It rarely sees the front lines, too few of them, too valuable as a cargo lifter.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

It sounds like from NAVAIR it's designed also for direct assault operations as well of troops and equipment. From NAVAIR...
"Mission
The CH-53K will transport Marines, heavy equipment and supplies during ship-to-shore movement in support of amphibious assault and subsequent operations ashore."

Not surprising this helo will/does carry an advanced EW system, ground avoidance radar and should game wise, probably have at least a TI/GSR 50. This does also have obvious Special Ops applications as it'll be easily able to carry a couple of their special purpose vehicles and teams with no problems for deep penetration ops.
http://www.navair.navy.mil/index.cfm?fuseaction=home.displayPlatform&key=1716CBDA-2950-4F8D-8001-3DD82B1DDB0F

We're not going to use something because of it's cost, we're not going to see the F-35 just sit on an airfield or carrier. What would be the point of having them then? No piece of modern equipment is "cheap" any longer when a tank can easily run over 10 million dollars a copy for some.

It's the era we live in and for better or worse the one we play in here. I would hope we NEVER exclude a piece of equipment for cost reasons (And I know we won't.) that's for the player to decide on what and how to use their resources. We just make it available and design it to the best of our abilities to make as realistic as the "real world" counter part.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[Suhiir]

It's not a matter of cost but of numbers available.

Maybe (probably) perspectives have changed.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

This will be my last on the CH-53K for awhile but, I wanted to leave you with what's probably the most detailed/updated resource on the topic at hand. It's the first one I used a very long time ago and you'll understand why when you look at it. Simply though, they stay with the topic and keep updating as needed.
https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/ch53k-the-us-marines-hlr-helicopter-program-updated-01724/

I need to hit the rack-take care!

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

From WillianB's thread "Israeli AH-64's with Spike" further info provided about Columbia's AH-60L IV. This is a very advanced AH with all the "bells and whistles" it is a very capable helo and it goes beyond the "stat" sheet I present below. The first ref. will show what we might've missed for this OOB for this helo and possibly previous marks.
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/colombia-orders-15-secondhand-uh60l-helicopters-saves-some-money-03392/
http://defence-blog.com/news/the-colombian-air-force-presents-the-sikorsky-ah-60l-arpia-iv.html
http://www.army-technology.com/news/newssikorsky-expands-colombian-black-hawks-support-new-business-office

14860 14861

14862 14863

14864

Thanks "WB", I would've missed this if it wasn't for your Thread.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[DRG]

From WillianB's thread "Israeli AH-64's with Spike" further info provided about Columbia's AH-60L IV. This is a very advanced AH with all the "bells and whistles" it is a very capable helo and it goes beyond the "stat" sheet I present below. The first ref. will show what we might've missed for this OOB for this helo
Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Pat.....the reason we " missed " this is because we do not have Columbia as a nation in the game.....

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

All I can say is "Well, well"...huh crap! New Zealand all over again!?! That time it was when I submitted the NH-90 for them in a Patch Post a few years back. :o :doh:

Well two for two, non exist OOB's and both helos, at least I'm consistent!?! :D

Sorry Don and everyone but at least there were pictures!!

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

From my files concerning the Pakistani AH-1Z. Before I post the refs I have I would kindly ask everyone's indulgence in...

1) The AH-64E to export countries will be no different than tit is for AH-1Z or ABRAMS or any other advanced U.S. piece of equipment.

2) From last Sep., please review Posts 63 & 64 of this thread. Those JANE's refs. are likely "dead" now but, as posted many times before, JANE's refs are "perishable" and you either act on them in a timely fashion or as I've been doing, build credible refs around them while active.

A) Also with ref. below note the delivery from Russian of the Mi-35M which is the most advanced version of the Mi-24 HIND. The Mi-35M is in the game with Brazil and I believe I also submitted it for Russia as well since they got them around 3yrs. ago. Also addresses various equipment and weapons to be sold to them as well. The TI/GSR levels addressed per Posts 63 & 64 with a minor - in EW as well as seen fit. FOC I would think around APR or JUN 2018. Though I have not checked, I believe the Pakistanis already fly the Mi-24 so assuming they get their Mi-35M helos by JAN 2018, I believe FOC should occur around APR/MAY 2018. The more advanced systems and weapons being the delaying factor here.
https://www.dawn.com/news/1250108
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/pakistan-orders-nine-more-bell-ah-1z-gunships-423882/
http://www.heliweb.com/lockheed-pakistan-ah-1z/
http://thediplomat.com/2017/02/pakistan-to-receive-us-attack-helicopters-in-2017/
http://quwa.org/2017/02/20/idex-2017-pakistan-will-begin-receiving-ah-1z-vipers-2017/
http://quwa.org/2017/06/19/pakistans-first-ah-1z-attack-helicopters-track-2017-delivery/

I have a couple more if needed. Thanks for the diversion!

We have had the pleasure of Irma's company here in what I believe was the hardest hit county in Ga. We feel so privileged. :rolleyes: At least we still have our house. Hope all affected in this forum and there are quite a few of you, made it through safely.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[redcoat2]

The first four UH-60 Black Hawks for the Afghan Air Force (AAF) were delivered to Kandahar airport on Monday.

http://www.tolonews.com/afghanistan/first-black-hawks-arrive-kandahar-aaf

The Afghan OOB (orbat26) has the S70 Blackhawk (unit 123) in it. Is there any evidence that they are present?

[DRG]

I believe ( it's been a long time....) those were added as available to the Afghans for missions but actually US equipment

NOTE
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/09/afghan-air-force-receives-blackhawk-helicopters-170915113759934.html

The Afghan air force has received its first Blackhawk helicopters from the US, in the latest step towards modernising its fleet.

Afghanistan still relies heavily on US airpower, but Afghans are beginning to carry out some operations themselves.

The new hardware arrives today, but it will take months before the aircraft can be used, and years before the air force can operate entirely on its own.

[redcoat2]

The U.S. Army has retired the OH-58D 'Kiowa Warrior' with the last serviceable aircraft making its final flight at Joint Base Langley-Eustis on Sept. 19.

https://www.dvidshub.net/news/248945/oh-58d-kiowa-warrior-takes-final-flight#

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Also see Posts #69 - #71/Pgs. 7/8. :D

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[WilliamB]

I found a few things in the October issue of Air Forces magazine that may be of value.

Egypt received 3 Ka-52s in July and 3 more in August. 9 more are to be delivered by the end of the year with a total of 46 to be received over the next two years.

Slovakia took delivery of 2 UH-60M Blackhawks in August and has 7 more on order.

Pakistan received 4 Mi-35Ms in July.

Afghanistan is to begin receiving UH-60A+ Blackhawks in early October to replace their Mi-17s. 53 are on order so far to be delivered over the next 18 months with a total requirement for 159.

[DRG]

I appreciate info on actual deliveries over theoretical maybe, maybe not a few years down the road deliveries

[redcoat2]

The Argentine Ministry of Defence has accepted 20 Augusta-Westland AB 206 military helicopters that will be assigned to the Army Aviation Directorate. The handover ceremony took place in Italy. Some of the helos will be fitted with GAU-17 miniguns and 70mm rockets once they arrive in Argentina.

http://www.eital.mrecic.gov.ar/es/entrega-de-helicopteros-al-ejercito-argentino

http://www.defenseworld.net/news/21025/Argentina_Receives_Refurbished_AgustaWestland_AB20 6_Helicopters_from_Italy#

[Pibwl]

It's a detail, but helo weapon Russian #173 4x57mm S-5K has HE pen=0, while #154 2x57mm S-5K has 1 (correct, I think).

Same for Polish weapon #188 4x57mm S-5K, and possibly others using helo version of 4x57mm.

[DRG]

It's used by three nations only those two are 0. 1 would be correct. Now corrected

[Pibwl]

By the way: sorry to pester you, but I've got doubts, if a difference between 2x57mm (HE kill 8) and 4x57mm (HE kill 10 - only 25% better) isn't too tiny, for twice as much rockets... On the other hand, 8x57mm has kill 15.

As for now, two shots of 2x57mm are much deadlier, than a single shot of 4x57mm - and some units had a plethora of 2x57mm (like Russian #965 Mi-8TB with 96 shots - 192 rockets), what gives them some sort of advantage.

I suggest to give:
2x57mm HE kill 6 (or 8),
4x57mm HE kill 12,
8x57mm - some 18 (or more), considering a big number of rockets in a salvo.

Two rockets would be pretty lousy choice then, but 57mm S-5 weren't regarded as highly precise and efficient weapon anyway (and there would be still a worse weapon: French 2x37mm SNEB with kill 5). 4x57mm could be considered a primary way of using these rockets then.

BTW: 2x57mm rockets are used eg. by Soviet #364 Mi-24A, which has 64 rockets as for now, while it carried a standard Mi-24-family load of 128 rockets (4x32, photo http://imgproc.airliners.net/photos/airliners/0/8/6/0845680.jpg?v=v40 )

For comparison:
2x RP-2 Rocket has kill 8, 4x RP-2 Rocket has kill 12 (50% better)
2x 68mm SNEB has kill 11, 4x 68mm SNEB has kill 14 (27% better - still not much)
2x 2.75in FFAR has kill 15, 4x 2.75in FFAR has kill 20 (33% better)
2x 70mm Hydra has kill 15, 4x 70mm Hydra has kill 20 (33% better)

With HE kill 12, 4x57mm would be similar to 4x RP-2 (2in), only marginally better than 2x68mm SNEB and worse, than 2x70mm, what might be close to reality.

[Imp]

Ungided rockets HE kill would be fine as it stands or closer than your suggestion.
Firing 4 vs 2 in a salvo just increases the chance you do damage or to catch something in the blast.
Not going to work out the probability but they are not accurate, say 12% more chance per rocket of actually hitting the target.

[Pibwl]

I know, but a difference between 2 and 4 rockets in case of 57mm is much smaller, than in others... And if we fire 4 rockets there is bigger chance, that two will hit.

[Pibwl]

Slovakia took delivery of 2 UH-60M Blackhawks in August and has 7 more on order.


I wanted to report this as well after reading a Polish article on Slovak helicopters :)
As for now, UH-60 are not armed, and there are no precise plans to arm them.

Anyway, other Slovak (OOB51) helo news and corrections, basing upon this article and https://sk.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vzdu%C5%A1n%C3%A9_sily_Slovenskej_republiky

190 Mil Mi-8 - precisely Mi-8T. Standard Mi-8 weren't armed with guns at all (photo without MG: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Mil_Mi-8T_of_Slovak_Air_Forces.JPG)

195 Mil Mi-17H - scheduled to be withdrawn by 2020.
Non-Soviet Mi-17 rarely were armed with guns, and Slovak ones weren't, as photos confirm.

They could carry as a standard 6 x 32 S-5 rockets (192 in total), now 64.
Photos showing six hardpoints:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Mi-17_Slovakia_(24354108134).jpg
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Slovak_Mi_17.jpg
https://www.aktuality.sk/fotogaleria/275120/armadu-caka-vymena-vrtulnikov-porovnali-sme-konciaceho-hrocha-s-ciernym-jastrabom/4/


200 Mil Mi-24V - all Mi-24 were withdrawn by the end of 9/2011 https://www.webnoviny.sk/vrtulniky-mi-24-v-slovenskej-armade-koncia/ and https://sk.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vzdu%C5%A1n%C3%A9_sily_Slovenskej_republiky. Currently Slovakia has no attack helicopters

Mi-24 carry typically 4 x 32 S-5 rockets (128 in total), now 64.

Slovak Mi-24 were camouflaged in several different patterns, so better icon seems 3494 (original pattern), for all terrains.

205 Mil Mi-24P - Slovakia had no Mi-24P, but 8 Mi-24D instead, withdrawn in 2011. Could be copied Czech unit 124.

290 WSK Mi-2 withdrawn by 2013 https://sk.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vzdu%C5%A1n%C3%A9_sily_Slovenskej_republiky Better icon is camouflaged 931. After its withdrawal, Slovakia has no light helicopters.

295 Mi-34 - there's no trace they were ever used.

910 Mi-35M - there's no info it was used - the only versions mentioned are 24D and V. Anyway, they surely weren't received in 1993. Photos at https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Mil_Mi-24_in_Slovakian_service doesn't show 23mm-gun-armed variants.

911 Mil Mi-24 - should be renamed Mi-24V (9M114 missiles), withdrawn in 2011. Better icon is 3494 (BTW, current icon is Mi-24D).

I'm attaching several photos, in case anybody finds them useful.

[Pibwl]

200 Mil Mi-24V - all Mi-24 were withdrawn by the end of 9/2011 https://www.webnoviny.sk/vrtulniky-mi-24-v-slovenskej-armade-koncia/ and https://sk.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vzdu%C5%A1n%C3%A9_sily_Slovenskej_republiky. Currently Slovakia has no attack helicopters


...unless we'll copy a Mi-17 with 192 57mm rockets to this class to fill a gap. There is also possible configuration with two 23mm GSh-23 guns (weapon 180) and four UB-32 launchers (128 57mm rockets) (I've seen such photo of Polish Mi-17).

[redcoat2]

Maybe something for obat61.

The Nigerian Air Force (NAF) has inducted the first of two new Bell 412 helos seized by customs in November 2016 and handed over to the NAF in January.

http://www.tv360nigeria.com/nigerian-air-force-chief-inducts-new-helicopter/

There is a Bell 412 in obat61 already (unit 135). It was available 1/83 to 12/94.

[redcoat2]

Kenya (obat69) has also acquired some Bell helicopters this year. The final two of eight Bell Huey II helicopters were delivered to the Kenyan Air Force in July. The first six were handed over in December 2016.

http://defence-blog.com/news/kenya-receives-six-bell-huey-ii-helicopters-from-usa.html

https://ke.usembassy.gov/kdfs-capacity-combat-al-shabaab-increased-delivery-final-bell-huey-ii-helicopters/

http://www.janes.com/article/72465/final-huey-iis-delivered-to-kenya

[redcoat2]

The first six Afghan UH-60 pilots have graduated.

http://www.afcent.af.mil/Units/438th-Air-Expeditionary-Wing/News/Article/1380152/first-afghan-uh-60-pilots-graduate/

[redcoat2]

The first AH-64E Apache Guardian attack helicopter for Indonesia has arrived from the United States. Indonesia requested eight Apache Guardians under the U.S. Foreign Military Sales program in September 2012, along with associated equipment and spares that included the Northrop Grumman AN/APG-78 Longbow Fire Control Radar and 140 Lockheed Martin AGM-114R3 anti-tank missiles.

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2017/12/18/first-ah-64e-apache-guardian-for-indonesia-arrives-from-us/

https://lancercell.com/2017/12/18/tiga-unit-ah-64-apache-pesanan-tni-ad-tiba-di-indonesia-photo/

[DRG]

now entered

[redcoat2]

The PRC has accepted the Z-18A medium transport helicopter into service with the PLA's Army Aviation:

http://defence-blog.com/news/chinese-army-finally-accepts-z-18a-helicopters-into-service.html (http://defence-blog.com/news/chinese-army-finally-accepts-z-18a-helicopters-into-service.html)

https://china-defense.blogspot.co.uk/2018/01/pla-army-aviation-inducts-two-z-18a.html (https://china-defense.blogspot.co.uk/2018/01/pla-army-aviation-inducts-two-z-18a.html)

http://china-defense.blogspot.co.uk/2018/01/xinjiang-army-aviation-brigade-is.html

[redcoat2]

The Republic of Korea Marine Corps (RoKMC) have received their first two multirole helicopters from the country's arms agency. The aircraft, which have been referred to by official news agency Yonhap as the MUH-1 or ‘Marineon’ helicopter, was developed by Korean Aerospace Industries (KAI).

http://english.yonhapnews.co.kr/northkorea/2018/01/10/0401000000AEN20180110001500315.html

http://www.janes.com/article/76933/south-korea-marines-receives-two-utility-helicopters

https://youtu.be/iQLWWcRYZkA

The MUH-1 is the Marine version of the KUH-1 Surion used by the Republic of Korea Army (ROKA):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KAI_KUH-1_Surion (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KAI_KUH-1_Surion)

[redcoat2]

The British Army is set to retire the Lynx AH.9a (obat07/ unit 552) this month.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/british-army-poised-to-retire-last-lynx-444809/

[redcoat2]

The Royal Jordanian Air Force has received its first Mi-26T2 Halo heavy transport helicopter:

https://defpost.com/royal-jordanian-air-force-receives-first-mi-26t2-halo-heavy-transport-helicopter/

http://www.jordantimes.com/news/local/largest-airlift-helicopter-mi-26t2-joins-rjaf

[WilliamB]

The February issue of AirForces Monthly reports that Spain has retired the last of their UH-1H Hueys (HU.10H unit 504). They are reported to have been withdrawn from service on December 12th.

[RC4]

Portuguese Air Force receive the AW119 Mk.II Koala (Change game data)(it can carry 7 soldiers)
Alouette-III is on service
Waiting for the Armed AW119 version
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=9&v=9MXB1NtQdKE

Thanks

[Aeraaa]

The first of the 70 in total OH-58 Kiowa helicopters has arrived in Greece:

https://www.ptisidiastima.com/greek-kiowa-warrior-oh-58d-arrival-in-greece-matter-of-hours/

sorry, the article is in Greek, but the general message is what I wrote.

[Wdll]

They are here (Hellenic Army) 70 OH-58D and 10 CH-47SD
Arrived on the 14th of May 2019.
Article in English. Photos included.
http://en.protothema.gr/the-oh-58d-kiowa-warrior-helicopters-of-the-hellenic-army-aviation-are-here-photos/

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

SIPRI Data: Transfers of major weapons: Deals with deliveries or orders made for 2015 to 2018.

France
R: Greece 20 NH-90 TTH Transport helicopter 2003 2011-2017 (20) EUR546 m deal (originally EUR657 m but reduced 2010 as compensation for delayed delivery; offsets 120% incl production of components in Greece); option on 14 more; first delivery delayed from 2006 to 2011

Italy
R: Greece 12 P2002 Sierra Light aircraft 2018 2018 12 P2002JF version; for training

United States
R: Greece 10 CH-47D Chinook Transport helicopter 2015 2016-2017 (10) Second-hand; $126 m deal; CH-47SD version

46 Bell-206/OH-58D(I) Combat helicopter 2017 2018 (46) Second-hand (24 more delivered for spare parts only); OH-58D version.

If you need the month of deliveries let me know, otherwise this FYI only.

It's late and I have things to do before work.

Have a great day!

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[Wdll]

They are here (Hellenic Army) 70 OH-58D and 10 CH-47SD
Arrived on the 14th of May 2019.
Article in English. Photos included.
http://en.protothema.gr/the-oh-58d-kiowa-warrior-helicopters-of-the-hellenic-army-aviation-are-here-photos/

If anyone is interested, a few more and larger photos from the delivery/unloading. The article is in Greek.

https://www.protothema.gr/greece/article/891380/eftasan-stin-ellada-ta-amerikanika-elikoptera-kiowa-warrior/

[WilliamB]

Their is a report in the July issue of Combat Aircraft that the first 2 MV-22B Ospreys for Japans Ground Self Defense Force arrived at MCAS Iwakuni on May 8th. They are to undergo testing and inspection by U.S. Marine Core personnel before being turned over to the JGSDF late this month or in early July. According to the report Japans first Osprey pilots are still in training at MCAS New River in North Carolina, so it will still be some time before they are operational.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

The USMC retired the AH-1W yesterday 19 OCT. 2020 and from REF.2 the final Sortie was flown on...
"The last AH-1W sortie was flown on Oct. 14 by HMLA-773 Detachment A at Naval Air Station Joint Reserve Base New Orleans, Louisiana."

So there you have it.
https://www.janes.com/defence-news/n...upercobra-helo
https://seapowermagazine.org/marine-...a-helicopters/


There's plenty more where they came on the web now but, these should be enough.

For as part of an ongoing discussion, see Jets and Planes Thread Post #568.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[Mobhack]

Australia picks the AH-64E as the replacement for the Tiger ARH

https://www.tanknet.org/index.php?/topic/45360-australia-selects-ah-64e/

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news-detail/australia-selects-ah-64e-apache-guardian-to-replace-tiger-armed-reconnaissance-helicopters

[Pibwl]

Not necessarily news, but there is no Bristol Sycamore for the British available https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bristol_Sycamore
I've just read in "War Machine", that in Cyprus: The Sycamore played a crucial role in Britain's operations against the EOKA terrorists, pioneering new mountain flying and helicopter assault techniques and specializing in swift cordon and search operations (sometimes using cabin mounted machine-guns for defence suppresion).

It could carry 2+3, and was used since 1955 in action (available from 1953, though rather in SAR missions), until 1971. If you'd like to add it, a wheeled slender icon like 1908 (Mi-1) would be OK as a quick measure.

An easy addition would be also Westland Dragonfly https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westland_WS-51_Dragonfly - copied eg. from Canadian 402 Sikorsky S51 (albeit the icon doesn't remind this helicoper and again 1908 would be almost perfect). However, I don't know if they were used for anything else than casualty evacuation. Crew was 1, but it could take 3 passengers.

BTW: I don't know if and when original 524 Bell Scout entered British service, but when it was built by Westland (reportedly from 1965 only?), it was known as Westland Sioux - so maybe it should be renamed Sioux https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_H-13_Sioux Carry capacity was only 1+2, with no place for 3 passengers, and probably no possibility of carrying a cargo.

[shahadi]

Not necessarily news, but there is no Bristol Sycamore for the British available https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bristol_Sycamore
I've just read in "War Machine", that in Cyprus: The Sycamore played a crucial role in Britain's operations against the EOKA terrorists,


I don't want to talk politics; however I think to characterize the EOKA as terrorists is a stretch. In Cyprus the EOKA fought to unite Cyprus with Greece. While I understand you're quoting from "War Machine" I am moved to protest. The EOKA were nationalist fighting to kick the Brits out of their country.

<br>

[DRG]

During the time the Sycamore would be in service there are far more useful helos available with a greater carry capacity which is why it's not included.

[DRG]

I don't want to talk politics; however I think to characterize the EOKA as terrorists is a stretch. In Cyprus the EOKA fought to unite Cyprus with Greece. While I understand you're quoting from "War Machine" I am moved to protest. The EOKA were nationalist fighting to kick the Brits out of their country.

<br>

They also engaged in intimidation that targeting civilians and murdered people they considered "traitors" and that's why a number of sources call them terrorists. They were not lilly white "freedom fighters"

[Pibwl]

During the time the Sycamore would be in service there are far more useful helos available with a greater carry capacity which is why it's not included.

Maybe, but it was Sycamore, that was actually used ;) The Whirlwind came about that time, but the article says, that Sycamore proved the superiority at higher altitudes in Cyprus mountains. Of course, treat it just as a hint, you are the boss. In any case, they sometimes flew with Bren guns.

BTW: I've just checked in said "War machine" no 96 and it seems, that Belvedere appears much too early (1950) - its predecessor first flew in 1952, and series Belvederes were delivered to the RAF from 8/1961 only, and remained until 3/69 (now 65).

I think to characterize the EOKA as terrorists is a stretch. ... The EOKA were nationalist fighting to kick the Brits out of their country.

Of course, it was not my intention and I don't know who was right. Killing people is generally bad. Although calling armed bands as "terrorists" or "freedom fighters" depends largely on a point of view...

[DRG]

I guess some adjustments need to be made....... In any event, it would go in as a light helo UC 204

[Pibwl]

BTW, there is a mention about 3 troops carried (and 12 delivered by four helos), but if Sycamore had capacity 1+4 for game purpose, it could carry an existing scout section (I don't know if two pilots were mandatory and why they didn't use up its small capacity 2+3 better...).

[DRG]

There's a new Icon for the HOK-1 Huskie which is the weirdest damned helo I have ever seen but it was designed by Flettner and there's just nothing else like it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRI1roI-vk4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2R_T0UgL7jk

[Pibwl]

BTW: I've just checked in said "War machine" no 96 and it seems, that Belvedere appears much too early (1950) - its predecessor first flew in 1952, and series Belvederes were delivered to the RAF from 8/1961 only, and remained until 3/69 (now 65).


I've noticed, that Belvedere (British, I assume) is present also in Malaysian oob in the same period. Speaking of which, 320 Whirlwind has Wessex icon.

[Pibwl]

I've read an article on A129 Mangusta development in Polish "Nowa Technika Wojskowa" 9/2015, and it shows, that Italian Mangustas shouldn't use Hellfire, and they should have 20 mm gun instead of 12.7mm.

Italian OOB34

505 A-129 Mangusta - only Mangusta CBT were integrated with Stinger, not early variant.

506 A-129 Mangusta - there were no Italian Mangustas with Hellfire, especially early variant. It was only proposed for export Mangusta International variant (confirmed at https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/AgustaWestland_AW129 )

507,510 A-129 CBT - there were no Hellfire armed Italian variants

508,509 A-129 CBT - it should have #179 20 mm M197 gun, not 12.7mm.
However, TI and RF values should remain on ordinary A-129 level, because there were no substantial changes in this field, mostly engines and armament (no TI, no laser RF). EW has been improved, FC could have been improved as well (newer software)

I'm not sure if 7 x 2x81 mm rockets is correct, since it carries two launchers with 7 rockets each (1 rocket for 1 HE?)

Hellfire-armed 507, 510 should be replaced with new A-129D Mangusta with 20 mm M197 gun and Spike-ER (I don't know how many - 4?), with all remaining stats based upon current A-129 CBT (TI 40, EW 7, FC 40, RF 14).
Modified helicopters were tested from 9/13, but I'm not sure when they became operational. According to https://zbiam.pl/12-tys-godzin-wloskich-mangust-afganistanie/ they operated over Afghanistan since 11/2014

A-129 CBT with 8 TOW and 2x7 81mm rockets is also possible https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Mangusta_EI.jpg

910 Agusta 129 EA-1 - there was no such Italian variant in 1997. Only export International was proposed wih 20 mm gun at that time. Italian A129 CBT was fitted with 20mm gun eventually, but appeared in 2002 (units 507-510). 51mm rockets are not listed as A129 armament - only 81 mm and 70 mm Hydra


Turkey OOB32


620-623 T-129 - basic T-129A were commissioned from 6/14, but armed with 20mm M179 Gattling and 70 mm rockets only (up to 4 x 19).

Only T-129B were meant to be armed with UMTAS AT-missiles (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UMTAS) - no Hellfire or Tow used.
It can use also Cirit rockets https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roketsan_Cirit and Stingers. They were to be delivered from late 2015, but I'm not sure if they have entered service already.

Name could be T129 ATAK https://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/TUSA%C5%9E_T-129_Atak (it also confirms deliveries of the first one in 4/14)

[Pibwl]

Hungary OOB 38

Bought 20 helicopters H145M - deliveries starting from 11/19 https://www.airforce-technology.com/news/airbus-h145m-helicopters-hungary/

From 11/20 several were upgraded to H145M HForce armed variant, apparently typically with one 12-tube rocket launcher (68 mm or 70 mm, I don't know which they chose) and 20 mm gun pod (photo: https://milmag.pl/uzbrojone-h145m-na-wegrzech/). According to https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news-detail/airbus-begins-hforce-upgrade-for-hungarian-h145m-helos they were going to be operational only in 7/21.

[Pibwl]

Poland OOB02

I was quite surprised to read in Polish Nowa Technika Wojskowa 6/21, that Mi-2URP (unit 117) and URP-G (unit 740), with Malutka missiles, still serve in Polish Army (of course, rather for combat training purpose - however, they are currently the only Polish helicopters with anti-tank - well, maybe "anti-AFV" missiles rather... Polish Mi-24 are still lacking ATGMs). Predictably, they will serve until 2025 at least... Part have been modified to use night vision goggles, but I don't know if it enhances vision.

On the other hand, other armed variants of Mi-2: URN/URNG (#115/741) with rockets and US with machine guns (#742) most probably ceased to be used well before 2015 - I would say 2005 at best.

967 Mi-2 Kania - PZL Kania was a Polish variant of Mi-2 with western engines https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PZL_Kania , but unfortunately only 19 were made and were not used by Polish Army.

963 SW-3W Huzar - unfortunately, pure fiction. There were only technology demonstrators with South African missiles (1993), then HOT-3 (1999) and Spike (2016), but there are no plans to buy any.

[blazejos]

When you mentioned about this Mi-2 still in usage I dig and found some propostion of improved more detailed Mi-2 icons which I d'like to share. These are of course generic without weapons but if will be usefully I can made variants with with Rockets and ATGM's

https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=16494&stc=1&d=1630914428

[cronos0738]

Nice work Blazejos !!!:up:

[Pibwl]

Poland OOB02
...

On the other hand, other armed variants of Mi-2: URN/URNG (#115/741) with rockets and US with machine guns (#742) most probably ceased to be used well before 2015 - I would say 2005 at best.


I've found a new article on Polish helicopters (Nowa Technika Wojskowa 4/2021), according to which #742 Mi-2US was introduced in mid-1971 (say, 1/72) and retired already in late 1970s - rebuilt to URN and URP (now 73-115)

741 Mi-2URNG - I was going to write, that the variant with Strela AAMs in addition to rockets surely didn't appear as early as 1973 - but when I started to dig, I haven't found any sign, that it actually existed, even as a prototype (there was first a prototype URS with Strelas only). The mentioned article says, that Strelas were adapted only for missile-armed URP-G.

Maybe missile load of 117,740 Mi-2URP / URPG could be doubled - they carried 4 missiles on launchers, but additional 4 were carried inside, and could be reloaded in a few minutes after landing in field.
The latter's designation is always written as URP-G. According to the article, it was tested in 1987 and commissioned only in 1988 (now 1/87)

114 Mi-4A - all but one withdrawn already by 10/84, last one in 7/85 (now 12/85)

Mi-6 were also used in 1/86 - 8/90 (could be copied from Russian oob, but unarmed)

[Pibwl]

Ecuador OOB82

Received H145 Cobra from 10/2020 - apparently unarmed https://www.aviacionline.com/2021/04/the-ecuadorian-air-force-receives-all-of-its-airbus-h145-cobra/

[DRG]

It would appear these are not already in the game and it would appear that at least 6 OOB's should have them so this goes on the list for the next update.

[blazejos]

Hi
Have a question will be usefully if I will done this new icon's for Mi-2 with ATGM's and MMG's for other than only polish OOB will be some benefit from that for the game?

I looked for Mi-2 versions

Mi-2T basic transport (may be armed in 2xPK in rear windows)
Mi-2P Vip transport
Mi-2US (Uzbrojenie Strzeleckie) NS-23mm & 4 PK MMG's on sides installed on small wings 30 examples build because not very effective rebuild to different versions letter. First deliveries to units in November 1973
Mi-2URN (Uzbrojenie Rakietowe Niekierowane) NS-23mm & 2PK in windows & 2x pods with 16 57mm rockets unguided S-5K or S-5M on small wings first build in this version in 1972 some rebuild from Mi-2US 26 build. First delivery January 1973
Mi-2URP (Uzbrojenie Rakietowe Przeciwpancerne) NS-23mm & with Malutka guided rockets 4 rockets on sides + 4 additional inside for fast reloading. Between 1975- 1985 44 build for LWP. Last 3 build in new standard Mi-2URP-G rest in meantime rebuild for this new standard
Mi-2URS(Uzbrojenie Rakietowe Samonaprowadzające) NS-23mm & with Striela-2M rockets build as "fighter" against aircraft's. Experiments starts in 1982 but such specialised helicopter with limited AA capabilities rockets wasn't very usefully so was decided to go with mixed next version. So this variant was only experimental
Mi-2URP-G (URP plus Gad), Know as "Gniewosz-Salamandra" NS-23mm & with combined 4x Malutka and 4x Striela 2M rockets ( 2x Gad pods). Only 3 build as new helicopters rest rebuild from variant Mi-2URP. So they were armed with 4x Malutka'and 4x Striela 2M. Sometimes in units armed with 2x Malutka and Gad pod from one side and 1x pod with 16 57mm rockets S-5K/M from other side that configuration was used because flexibility during training. In 2007 14x helicopters of armed variants were modified with Night vision googles.

Ns-23mm
https://histmag.org/grafika/articles3/mi2/2.jpg

Mars-2 pod
https://histmag.org/grafika/articles3/mi2/3.jpg

Malutka firings pod
https://histmag.org/grafika/articles3/mi2/4.jpg

Malutka and Gad from Gniewosz-Salamandra
https://histmag.org/grafika/articles3/mi2/5.jpg


Mi-2 "Platan" with device to lay minefields carry around 20 mines introduced in 1985 used until 1995

Mi-2D "Przełącznik" for carry HQ with radio devices and space for maps around 25 build since 1974 used until 2000

Mi-2RO (Rozpoznania Ogólnego) for general observation duties with aerial photo also since 1974 first armed only in PK guns in windows since 1977 also build in variant 23mm NS & 2x PK in windows.

Mi-2RM sea rescue unarmed variant & Mi-2RL inland rescue also without weapons but with search light 10 build since 1975

Mi-2RS "Padalec" with specialised equipment to detect atomic radiation levels on battlefield since 1978 letter added also device WDZ-80

Mi-2CH "Hekla with device to WDZ-80 for building a smoke cover for units in 1980 all helicopters Hekla & Padalec were equipped in smoke generators

Mi-2B build for Libya in 1979-80 with western King avionics and communication equipment. 40 build and used as armed version in Libya.

Mi-2 Plus improved engine & western avionics modernisation since 2000 in Poland used only by civilian users.

And here most famous Mi-2 in civilian version which comes to classic 007 story and played in "For your eyes only" Story of the pilot and machine witch English subtitles
https://youtu.be/BtNIvC92AyE

[blazejos]

Don can you also add to Philippine OOB polish

PZL W-3A Sokół

They have 8 and they can carry 2x M60 machine gun in doors on both sides one from each side. Except that they are unarmed and they have them since 2012/2013 exactly since February 2012 according to this article https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/philippines/paf-modernization-helicopters.htm I have no exactly icon but one of polish green one can be used
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3f/PAF_W-3A_Sokol_%28cropped%29.jpg


And video where is possible to see how MG is installed https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=td1GzqZbj3s
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=td1GzqZbj3s)
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Lz3-xDfpyqc/XHgCVZWOZsI/AAAAAAABAA8/j_4Pqusxuts4gtBFjEkdFfjAJzC41lITwCLcBGAs/s1600/1011506_379673815466271_549996326_n.jpg

Czech has also 11 and in icons list is even as special icon in Czech variant camo which is not used in Czech OOB. They have now 10 of them and they are unarmed They buy them in 1995 in exchange for their Mig-29

here photo in Czech painting
https://www.altair.com.pl/files/news/photos/9/9140/i-i12-11-159sokol.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ad/PZL_W-3_Sok%C3%B3%C5%82_of_Czech_Air_Forces.jpg/220px-PZL_W-3_Sok%C3%B3%C5%82_of_Czech_Air_Forces.jpg

Third airforce is Myanmar
has 13 in variant PZL W-3 Sokół unarmed transport version since 1991
here photos in their airforce https://abpic.co.uk/pictures/construction-number/310404

And last military operator is Algeria 8 helicopters since 2012 acording to this source https://www.helis.com/database/model/PZL-W-3/%20?filc=DZ Variant W-3A transport version so probably MG is what is installed like in Philippine version.
Photos of Algerian Desert variant of Sokół https://www.airplane-pictures.net/photo/342019/at-14-algeria-air-force-pzl-w-3-sokol/

here list of users https://www.helis.com/database/model/PZL-W-3/%20?filc=DZ

And official list of repairs in their helicopters in different airforces by PZL Świdnik https://www.pzlswidnik.pl/en/wsparcie-i-szkolenie-klienta/publikacje-techniczne

[MarkSheppard]

China last year unveiled their Z-8L Heavy Lift Helo.

Recently, Chinese State Media showed a lineup of Z-8Ls waiting for take off:

https://i.imgur.com/lizl2he.jpg

Currently, we have the Z-8A (Unit 128) in the game.

Differences between the Z-8A and the Z-8L are:

The L model is wider so it can accommodate a Bobcat ATV (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0pdb4RRpNo)

The A model is a 13 ton class helicopter, while the L model is 15 ton class.

L has better countermeasures such as RWRs and IR decoys.

[MarkSheppard]

The Chinese introduced the Z-20 into service in October 2019.

https://i.imgur.com/9IkwTt8.jpg

The Z-20 is basically a Chineseized advanced version of the S-70C-2 Blackhawks (Unit 122) that China acquired in 1984 before Tiannamen.

It's not a straight Blackhawk clone though.

It has a 5 bladed rotor (Blackhawk has 4-bladed rotor), more powerful engines (2400 SHP vs 2000 shp on Blackhawk), and various improved technologies allowing it to work above 13,200 ft.

Recently, Z-20s have been seen with external weapons pylons, similar to the Blackhawk.

https://i.imgur.com/OcjlQNY.jpg

[WilliamB]

Key.Aero is reporting that the first of 12 AH-1Zs ordered by the Kingdom of Bahrain in 2019 has been completed. It will be shipped to Bahrain sometime next year, but no exact date yet. Am I correct in assuming this goes in the Gulf States OB file?

[DRG]

Key.Aero is reporting that the first of 12 AH-1Zs ordered by the Kingdom of Bahrain in 2019 has been completed. It will be shipped to Bahrain sometime next year, but no exact date yet. Am I correct in assuming this goes in the Gulf States OB file?


Yes. Thanks

[blazejos]

Poland has also Blackhawks 4x S-70i already but only in Special forces since 20/12/2019 so in reality January 2020 will be correct. And now have buy 4 more in 2021 also for special forces
https://www.gov.pl/web/obrona-narodowa/black-hawk

https://radar.rp.pl/smiglowce-dla-specjalsow/art17505041-wojska-specjalne-odebraly-black-hawki

https://i.gremicdn.pl/image/free/314179f40e6f413d0b2bfa621a345c4e/?t=resize:fill:624:390,enlarge:1

As you can see this 8x helicopters are armed with guns in doors from both sides

There are also 3x S-70i unarmed Blackhawk's in Police in dark blue colour
since November 2018
https://twitter.com/MSWiA_GOV_PL/status/1068453349710802944?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5 Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1068453349710802944%7Ctwgr% 5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_c10&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwmeritum.pl%2Fblack-hawk-dla-polskiej-policji%2F257107
https://wmeritum.pl/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/black-hawk-750x375.jpg

[Pibwl]

Poland has also Blackhawks 4x S-70i already but only in Special forces since 20/12/2019 so in reality January 2020 will be correct.

Rare and not typical - if it is added, it should be separated from ordinary army helicopters (say, 221 Light Attack Helicopter class)

[Mobhack]

Rare and not typical - if it is added, it should be separated from ordinary army helicopters (say, 221 Light Attack Helicopter class)

Or an X3 radio code would do as a "not for the AI" item.

[Pibwl]

Could be - but human players also should know, that it is not an ordinary workhorse of Polish air cavalry, more luring, than W-3 Sokół...

And now for something completely different:
Japan

363, 364, 951 OH-64DJP Apache - according to Polish monographic article ("Nowa Technika Wojskowa" 6/2018), the first was given to military tests in 3/06, and several were used in military exercises from in 8/07, but first helicopters were delivered to regular combat unit only in 3/10 and achieved readiness by 12/10 [now 1/06].
Very rare machine - only 13 made (11 in Japan, throughout 2007-14).

AH-64DJP was Boeing's designation, but Japanese forces call it just "AH-64D" (not OH). The same says Japanese Wikipedia, according to the translator https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/AH-64D_%E3%82%A2%E3%83%91%E3%83%83%E3%83%81%E3%83%BB% E3%83%AD%E3%83%B3%E3%82%B0%E3%83%9C%E3%82%A6

Same for 359, 362, 366 OH-1S Cobra - https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/AH-1_%E3%82%B3%E3%83%96%E3%83%A9 says AH-1S.

Same for 360, 950 OH-1N - https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/UH-1_(%E8%88%AA%E7%A9%BA%E6%A9%9F) says UH-1 in Japanese context, however there are only UH-1B, H and J used. Japan isn't mentioned as UH-1N Twin Huey user here https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/UH-1N_%E3%83%84%E3%82%A4%E3%83%B3%E3%83%92%E3%83%A5%E 3%83%BC%E3%82%A4

OH-1 is a different Japanese helicopter (unit 343)

[Mobhack]

Could be - but human players also should know, that it is not an ordinary workhorse of Polish air cavalry, more luring, than W-3 Sokół..


Then put some text to that effect in the unit description text as well as giving it an x3 code?.

[Pibwl]

Then put some text to that effect in the unit description text as well as giving it an x3 code?.

As you like. Maybe you'd want me to write encyclopedia descriptions for Polish units then?.. ;)

[Pibwl]

Spain

520-523 - HA.28 - according to article in Polish "Lotnictwo" 6/21 and Spanish https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurocopter_EC665_Tigre it has a name "Tigre".
First version used in Spain was HAP (and it might have been its designation - Helicóptero de Apoyo y Protección), but it was armed only in 30mm gun, rockets and Mistrals.

Spike was introduced only with Tigre HAD (Helicóptero de Ataque y Destrucción), delivered from 2015 and probably operational from 2016, when they fired first Spike [now: all 1/08]

Now we have HAP units 520 and 521 with 4 Mistrals and 22 or 44 rockets. Since it can carry 44 rockets and 4 Mistrals, a weaker one seems redundant. But, as this photo shows https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Tigre_(15547548575).jpg, maybe unit 520, instead of Mistrals, should carry 68 rockets?...

501,502 HR.15 (Bo-105) - withdrawn in 2017 (https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/MBB_Bo_105 )

Eurocopter EC-135 is used as a light helicopter from 2007 (as HU.26) (https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anexo:Materiales_del_Ej%C3%A9rcito_de_Tierra_de_Es pa%C3%B1a#Helic%C3%B3pteros )

We have unit 582 HE.26, but it is wrong - photo and capacity suggest EC Panther or something similar, but HE.26 is a designation of training HU.26 = EC.135 (light helicopter).


507 HT.21L (Puma) - still in use, according to the article and last quoted page (not for long, to be replaced with last deliveries of NH-90)

BTW: should 506 and 507 HT.21 have carry capacity 220? French Pumas have 120, and 509 HT.27 (Cougar) has 125.

581 NH-90 TTH - according to the same page https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anexo:Materiales_del_Ej%C3%A9rcito_de_Tierra_de_Es pa%C3%B1a#Helic%C3%B3pteros Entrada en servicio: 2014 [1/10]

(BTW: I've just searched for NH-90 in German oob... and it seems it isn't there! Used from 2012 at least)

[Pibwl]

Spain
...

581 NH-90 TTH - according to the same page https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anexo:Materiales_del_Ej%C3%A9rcito_de_Tierra_de_Es pa%C3%B1a#Helic%C3%B3pteros Entrada en servicio: 2014 [1/10]


More precisely, according to the quoted article, first two were delivered in 9/16 (in 2014 a contract was signed). I don't know when they became operational in significant number, though.
Spanish designation is HT.29.

[Karagin]

Seems the Indians are arming their Russian-made helos with Spike NLOS missiles.

https://organiser.org/2022/04/24/77761/defence/iaf-arming-russian-chopper-fleet-with-israeli-nlos-anti-tank-guided-missiles/

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/iaf-arming-russian-chopper-fleet-with-israeli-nlos-anti-tank-guided-missiles/articleshow/91049275.cms

https://www.theweek.in/news/india/2022/04/24/spike-nlos-decoding-iaf-interest-in-israeli-tank-killing-missile.html

[blazejos]

Mil Mi-2 helicopters were traditionally build in Świdnik Polish Peoples Republic for whole Warsaw Pact and friendly States during cold war. So never were build in USSR factories. But after fall of Soviet Union new Ukrainian State which inherit some Mil construction Bureau blueprints starts to manufacture new modernised variant by Motor-Sich with new glass cockpit. So as for now Ukraine is only manufacturer of Mi-2 because Poland stops to build them quite long time ago and they aren't build in Russia.

Mi-2AM-1
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/52/Mi-2MSB-1%2C_Kyiv_2019%2C_01.jpg/1280px-Mi-2MSB-1%2C_Kyiv_2019%2C_01.jpg

Main difference which is possible to see is longer front nose and different engines than in older Mi-2

https://www.globalplanesearch.com/listing/aircraft-for-sale/Mil-MI-2/263235

As you can see here there is now fundraiser to sponsor building this helicopter in Motorsich factory what my help also boost local econmy on Ukraine.
https://mil.in.ua/en/news/poland-fundraises-for-3-evacuation-helicopters-for-ukraine/


Before this new variant were build Mi-2MSB in Ukraine
Nose is like in older helicopters probably cockpit wasn't with glass technology but engine is like in this new variant

https://cdn.airplane-pictures.net/images/uploaded-images/2019/1/15/1156282.jpg

In 2015 25 were build in armed variant for Ukrainian army
https://uprom.info/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/179542251_274394047477252_4350650663502893211_n.jp g?x33944

here more photos of this armed variant
https://defence24.pl/sily-zbrojne/premiera-bojowej-wersji-ukrainskiego-smiglowca-mi-2msb

And here article from 2021 that they were delivered to navy
https://en.defence-ua.com/news/ukraines_navy_begins_receiving_mi_2msb_choppers-1796.html

https://en.defence-ua.com/media/illustration/articles/741602693c00d792.jpg

[blazejos]

I just found about another very light helicopter build until war in Kharkiv and most likely used on front-line even if is not official in Ukrainian army probably as a spotter and light liaison.

АК1-3
http://www.airwar.ru/enc/uh/za6.html
https://www.facebook.com/aerocopter.ak1.3/

here destroyed helicopter on front-line
http://www.ukraviaforum.com/index.php/topic,1950.0.html

And here article about Russian conversion of that helicopter to UAV drone
https://defence-blog.com/russia-converts-stolen-ukrainian-helicopter-into-drone/

[DRG]

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2022/11/11/how-the-ukrainians-wrecked-the-russians-best-helicopter-regiments/?sh=528dbfd87823


How The Ukrainians Wrecked the Russians’ Best Helicopter Regiments
In part....


The air force went into Russia’s wider war on Ukraine starting in late February with around 100 of the twin-rotor, two-seat Ka-52s. Nine months later it has lost at least 25 of them that independent analysts can confirm.

The best Ka-52 crews got shot down early in the war while trying to penetrate deep behind Ukrainian lines. Now less-skilled crews are easy targets for ever bolder Ukrainian air defenders.

On paper, the Ka-52 is one of the best attack helicopters in the world. With its better optics, night-vision devices and precision missiles than the other main Russian gunship types, the Mil Mi-24 and Mil Mi-28, the Ka-52 initially was a specialist. The Russian air force assigned the type to support special operations forces, especially at night.

The Ka-52 crews’ superior training—a prerequisite for commando ops—made them invaluable to Russian planners in the first few weeks of the invasion of Ukraine, as haphazardly prepared Russian brigades barreled across the border with Ukraine and headed toward Kyiv. The goal: to destroy the Ukrainian government and force the Ukrainian armed forces to surrender.

Russian brigades found themselves deep behind Ukrainian lines. Their communications breaking down. Their logistics fraying. The Kremlin leaned heavily on the Ka-52s to support the troops on the bleeding edge of a risky war plan.

“During the battle for Kyiv, Mi-24 and Mi-28 gunships operated alongside the Ka-52 in the hunter-killer role at night, as well as in daylight,” the RUSI team wrote. “However, typically night operations of this kind have been flown by the Ka-52 fleet due to their superior night-vision equipment.”

The Ukrainians threw everything they had at the Ka-52s and other Russian helicopters, hitting them with anti-tank missiles and even blowing them up on the ground with artillery and drones. But it was the Ukrainians’ thousands of short-range, infrared-guided, man-portable air-defense systems—including American-made Stingers—that killed the most Ka-52 crews.

and further



The Ka-52 crews now have settled on two main tactics. They, like the Mi-24 and Mi-28 crews, often lob unguided rockets in high ballistic arcs. Ballistic launch allows the crews to stay on the Russian side of the front line, where the MANPADS threat is somewhat lighter.

But the ballistic attack method is wildly inaccurate. “Sufficient only to force Ukrainian forces in the open to take cover, or to fix dug-in units in place until the impacts subside,” is how the RUSI study described the method.

The more accurate alternative—to fire a Vikhr anti-tank missile from several miles away—also helps to keep Ka-52 crews on the safer side of the line of contact. But there’s a downside.

The 90-pound Vikhr is a “beam-rider.” A Ka-52 crew must hover a few hundred feet off the ground, shoot a laser beam at the target from as far as six miles away, then fire the missile, which follows the laser all the way to the target.

The problem is, the firing helicopter can’t move until the missile hits. And that can take tens of seconds—an eternity when increasingly skilled Ukrainian MANPADS shooters are nearby. So even after abandoning deep-penetration operations, the Ka-52 crews keep getting shot down.

[Aeraaa]

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2022/11/11/how-the-ukrainians-wrecked-the-russians-best-helicopter-regiments/?sh=528dbfd87823


How The Ukrainians Wrecked the Russians’ Best Helicopter Regiments
In part....


The air force went into Russia’s wider war on Ukraine starting in late February with around 100 of the twin-rotor, two-seat Ka-52s. Nine months later it has lost at least 25 of them that independent analysts can confirm.

The best Ka-52 crews got shot down early in the war while trying to penetrate deep behind Ukrainian lines. Now less-skilled crews are easy targets for ever bolder Ukrainian air defenders.

On paper, the Ka-52 is one of the best attack helicopters in the world. With its better optics, night-vision devices and precision missiles than the other main Russian gunship types, the Mil Mi-24 and Mil Mi-28, the Ka-52 initially was a specialist. The Russian air force assigned the type to support special operations forces, especially at night.

The Ka-52 crews’ superior training—a prerequisite for commando ops—made them invaluable to Russian planners in the first few weeks of the invasion of Ukraine, as haphazardly prepared Russian brigades barreled across the border with Ukraine and headed toward Kyiv. The goal: to destroy the Ukrainian government and force the Ukrainian armed forces to surrender.

Russian brigades found themselves deep behind Ukrainian lines. Their communications breaking down. Their logistics fraying. The Kremlin leaned heavily on the Ka-52s to support the troops on the bleeding edge of a risky war plan.

“During the battle for Kyiv, Mi-24 and Mi-28 gunships operated alongside the Ka-52 in the hunter-killer role at night, as well as in daylight,” the RUSI team wrote. “However, typically night operations of this kind have been flown by the Ka-52 fleet due to their superior night-vision equipment.”

The Ukrainians threw everything they had at the Ka-52s and other Russian helicopters, hitting them with anti-tank missiles and even blowing them up on the ground with artillery and drones. But it was the Ukrainians’ thousands of short-range, infrared-guided, man-portable air-defense systems—including American-made Stingers—that killed the most Ka-52 crews.

and further



The Ka-52 crews now have settled on two main tactics. They, like the Mi-24 and Mi-28 crews, often lob unguided rockets in high ballistic arcs. Ballistic launch allows the crews to stay on the Russian side of the front line, where the MANPADS threat is somewhat lighter.

But the ballistic attack method is wildly inaccurate. “Sufficient only to force Ukrainian forces in the open to take cover, or to fix dug-in units in place until the impacts subside,” is how the RUSI study described the method.

The more accurate alternative—to fire a Vikhr anti-tank missile from several miles away—also helps to keep Ka-52 crews on the safer side of the line of contact. But there’s a downside.

The 90-pound Vikhr is a “beam-rider.” A Ka-52 crew must hover a few hundred feet off the ground, shoot a laser beam at the target from as far as six miles away, then fire the missile, which follows the laser all the way to the target.

The problem is, the firing helicopter can’t move until the missile hits. And that can take tens of seconds—an eternity when increasingly skilled Ukrainian MANPADS shooters are nearby. So even after abandoning deep-penetration operations, the Ka-52 crews keep getting shot down.


Well, it feels like beating a dead horse again but...

...helos in the game are WAAAY too resilient. Their countermeasures are godly effective (to the point that no SAM can have more than 5% chance of hitting them), but even the few times that are hit, barely if any damage is scored. I remember this in the WW3 scenarios where Ka-52s are the vehicles from hell that absolutely dominate open field warfare and force you to hide and try to take potshots at them with ATGMs when hovering (!!!)

If this and large caliber HE effectiveness vs. tanks is improved, then the game is perfect.

disclaimer: I havent played the latest patch extensively, so some of these stuff may have already been fixed.

[DRG]

There had been some tweaks last time and I HAVE seen >5% "to hit" and I HAVE seen gunship helos taken down by manpads but this is on our "to investigate further" list. Just had a conversation with Andy about that when we start work probably January. We are thinking ( but have NOT yet fully investigated ) that like the glorious AT defensive systems allegedly common on all those Russian tanks now scrap metal that perhaps the EW ratings for the helos are a bit "generous".....BUT it may be that the "issue" is with the SAM/ manpads. That's what we need to investigate.

Remember the game is built on a lot of guesswork as "real life" data like we are getting now is rare. There has not been wide-open European combined arms combat on this scale since 1945 so there is a bit of a tsunami of data coming in

This type of thing harkens back to the game's very roots. I remember referring to the German HT's in the original SP as the "Murder Machines"

[Karagin]

Helos are not resilient; I have seen the routed from ground fire, MANPADs, AA, and SAMs far more than I have seen them do anything practical.

The AI loves to shoot at them the second it gets LOS to them and won't stop until you, as the player, break that LOS.

I would say that someone is trying to use their helos as tanks, not as what they are flying targets that draw attention the second they get above the treetops.

[Aeraaa]

I dont know, in my experience high end Russian helos are so resilient that AI uses them almost like Tiger tanks in 1943 and gets away with it. Most of the time, I hit them only when stationary and use an ATGM. On one hand, it enables the AI not to lose 500 points in an instant. On the other hand, it enables unrealistic tactics like the one mentioned before (plus, there are also PBEM games...)

Regarding helos, it would be interesting if the flying artillery tactic could be implemented as in this war (helos unleashing rockets in an upwards arc as an ad hoc artillery). Perhaps it would be a good idea if rocket armed helos could have bombardment ability.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Tell that to my APACHE crews that along with helicopters are all over "God's Green Earth" this was why several years ago I was wondering if we create "Auto Rotation" in the game you might lose your helicopter but by the same token you might save your crew and some soldiers if in a troop transport helo.

And we did look into this several years ago. Mostly we found some Helos armor was rated lower than they should've been against ammo at the 23mm (VIPOR/APACHE) BECAUSE those values needed weren't available when they were entered into the game. And there were some older ones dating back before Andy and Don to include more contemporary ones as well.

My game world again is ONLY the AI one. When I buy Helos or aircraft it amazes me how the AI seems to know I got them.

So, when I "bring them to the party" MANPADS are the least of my problems though they've caused me headaches as well. It's the big stuff that waiting for me and the AI VERY RARELY has disappointed with its "welcoming committee".

This why terrain masking is so important no matter the type.

Some are more resilient because unlike fighters except with some armor around the cockpit they actually figured out years ago helicopters because of their flight limitations might just need more of it.

And don't get me started on the more modern EW and Decoys
that are out there. Those are items we can't fully simulate in the game though they exist in the RW. So I'd call that a tradeoff with the perception helicopters are too "strong".

Last time I checked the Ukraine is a fairly flat and open country and when you use your air assets (Including Helos.) to drop "dumb bombs" over plains and farmland then your commanders as a dumb as the bombs their telling you to drop in that environment.

Even I can shoot down a helo in open country with a "AASIRSBG" ALRIGHT I'll translate-Anti-Aircraft Sneeze Injected Recoil Spit Ball Gun.

We're getting caught up in the videos, we've seen some successes on both sides in using attack Helos and if you've seen the ones, I've seen they're ALL flying "nap of the earth" and fast. There's one of a Ukrainian Mi-24 that was flying no more than 15 ft. over cars on a road.

That MIGHT help to avoid radar detection, makes you harder to hear you coming (Think about it the higher you are the more "space" you create for sound to travel further and wider in all directions. Same concept as Sonar in the open ocean versus in a bay) Which I believe is another thing we can't simulate "Nap of the Earth" flight.

I'm of the opinion that this matter really is a DRAW for both sides of the argument. Not just for the above but also because MANY people have postulated the opposite view that helicopters are too vulnerable.

And there you have it. I terrain mask and still use them. I can count on my hands and the number NOT reaching 10 how many crews have survived one of my 23/25 game generated campaigns when part of my core units.

If anything, we need to find the AI Military Intelligence Agency (AIMIA) ;) code AND KILL IT. :p

Yeah, AIMIA was on purpose there's a hidden message in there. :D

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[DRG]

Gee, ......." a difference of opinion"

That usually means we have it nailed when nobody is happy for opposing reasons

[DRG]

If anything, we need to find the AI Military Intelligence Agency (AIMIA) ;) code AND KILL IT. :p

Yeah, AIMIA was on purpose there's a hidden message in there. :D

Regards,
Pat
:capt:


Somedays I really do dispair.

It's one thing coming from a newbie to the game...... quite another coming from a veteran player

There is a DEAD CERTAIN way to test "theories" like this that take maybe less time than to type a long post about it

Set up a game like this
https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=16806&stc=1&d=1668356402

Why that way you might ask.

This allows you to pick for the AI "attacker" and see what the AI would buy if the AI was the "defender".

This allows you to test theoies like "When I buy Helos or aircraft it amazes me how the AI seems to know I got them."

The answer to that question is in the game. You just have to look for it

So.......... you will need to run this through a half dozen times because like everything else the picklists have randoms built in so it's not the same every time

You want to be able to purchase for the AI so you can test this "how the AI seems to know I got them." theory.

So..... buy the same thing the first few times or alternately whatever floats your boat

To keep it manageable set Ukraine ( or whoever ) to 5000 points and set player 2 to XXX which allows it to buy to it's max for that battle type

Set player 2 air sorties to 15

Buy nothing but gunships for the P2 AI. Quit deploy for P2 and then you will be brought to the deploy screen for P1. Auto deploy ( it's just easier but clicking on manual deploy works too)

Once you see the units for P1 on the map go to the HQ memu........ check how many DEDICATED manpads were bought.... ignore the ones that might be bought with an infantry formation as that is even more randomized and the AI does NOT check what weapons are in an unit or formation before buying it

Do that a few times and count how many Inf sams are bought ( and SPAA / SAMS if you like )

Next do the same thing only this time buy nothing but MBT's for P2

Do that a few times and count how many are bought each time for both types of attack and tell me if you see a significant difference ( you won't ). Keep in mind that the larger the sample the less chance of getting repeatable random events. You want the average of as large a sample as you are willing to take

[Suhiir]

I did a LOT of experiments with helos once upon a time.

If they have no armor they're vulnerable to any and everything.
With 1 they're pretty resistant to rifle fire.
At 2 they can handle HMG type AA fairly well.
With 3 or more they're VERY hard to hurt with MPADs and light AA (20ish mm).

The Hind use to have 4 armor (and the Apache 3, now the Hind has 2 and the Apache 4) making them quite literally a flying tank. No clue when the armor on the Hind was reduced but I'd suggest the Hind and Apache have no more then 3.

[DRG]

now the Hind has 2 and the Apache 4) making them quite literally a flying tank.

REALLY ?

Please do tell me the unit number of this mythical beast

EVERY Apache in V16 has 3 except the ones Egypt uses and they have 2.......... NONE have 4

https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=16808&stc=1&d=1668385128

This is not the first time someone whos been on this forum for a while has suggested or proven they are not using the current OOBs.

Its really getting annoying

Last release was V16 if anyone is playing the game with anything but V16 you need to DL the update and recheck your facts before posting here


Ok??

[Suhiir]

In my US Army OOB unit# 936 AH-64D Apache shows HF=12 HS=4 ... i.e. 4 armor.

Did V16 come out while I was in the hospital? I may have missed it.

It also means I've been updating the wrong version of the USMC OOB! :doh:

[DRG]

In my US Army OOB unit# 936 AH-64D Apache shows HF=12 HS=4 ... i.e. 4 armor.

Did V16 come out while I was in the hospital? I may have missed it.

It also means I've been updating the wrong version of the USMC OOB! :doh:


Yes it does. I thought that was understood in our PM conversation when I told you the only change to the USMC since last release was the arty photo. I assumed you remembered we have been releasing every spring for years

BECAUSE.... In the email I sent you Oct 24 I said....


SO IF you have the last update installed to MBT ( v16 ) you don't need my OOB to start work

IDK how I could be any clearer...

This is for everyone else.

IF YOU HAVE NOT CHECKED FOR GAME UPDATES THIS YEAR ( or cannot remember the last time you did)....... DO SO NOW

The current version shows at the bottom of the start up screen...... it should be V16

[Karagin]

Even with armor, the helos are not flying tanks. Once they are in the sights of AA, anything, they don't last long and usually are chased off the damn map.

What settings do you have things at for toughness and all that? That might be why your stuff is not reacting like others. I have more issues with the AI-run fighters shrugging off hits and somehow knowing where to strike my armor or flanking units with damn near perfect ability to get kills than any era helos making through the game if they go above NAP.

A couple of weeks ago, I had a Cobra shot down by VC rifle fire because I moved too close to them, and well, the AI took advantage of my mistake, no flying tank there.

Could it also come down to how you are using them? Tactical use might be why yours seem to be flying tanks and others are not.

[Aeraaa]

I doubt tactical finesse is the reason here, since the AI's way of operating helos is to fly them in a straight line and ATGM any vehicle that is spotted. I do use NOE, but this is how helos are supposed to be used anyway.

[blazejos]

Just d'like to add some issue related to helicopter tactics on front-line now which is discussed here

russian pilots try to increase the firing range by performing the attack on the climb, when the aircraft’s nose is raised up

they are inside this article even two videos examples of Ka-52 and Mi-28 recorded during fights

https://en.defence-ua.com/weapon_and_tech/how_ukrainian_national_guard_forces_russian_helico pters_to_shoot_rockets_miles_out_and_flee-4878.html

[MarkSheppard]

https://www.defensenews.com/industry/2022/12/05/us-army-makes-largest-helicopter-award-in-40-years/

https://breakingdefense.com/2022/12/bells-valor-wins-armys-future-long-range-assault-aircraft-competition-to-replace-black-hawk/

WASHINGTON — Textron’s Bell has won the U.S. Army’s competition to build the Future Long-Range Assault Aircraft, the service’s largest helicopter procurement decision in 40 years.

The deal for the next-generation helicopter is worth up to $1.3 billion and is set to replace roughly 2,000 Black Hawk utility helicopters and around 1,200 Apache attack helicopters around 2030. FLRAA will not serve as a one-for-one replacement for existing aircraft, but it will take over the roles of the Black Hawk, long the workhorse of the Army for getting troops to and around the battlefield, and the Apache, focused on attack missions.

So looks like the Army gets mini V-22 in 2030 or so...

[Suhiir]

The tilt-rotor design of the V-22 makes it problematic to create an "Attack" version of it. So don't expect AH-1s or AH-64s to go away any time soon.

[Suhiir]

I suppose this is helo related since the Hellfire is normally a helo weapon system.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srgEp7QXPks

[DRG]

There seems to be a lot of testing new applications for weapons like the Hellfire.... brimstone instantly comes to mind and from what I found online was the Hellfire is cheaper to build than either the Brimstone or the Javalin so ground launch vehicles could very well become reality in the near future and both the Brimstone and Hellfire have a greater range than a Javalin but the Javalin is, of course, man-portable

There are all kinds of old tank / APC hulls in storage that could be adapted to be missile carriers


https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-522e1163e9e5ac17b2b4c8ceb9d04eb8-lq

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRP7B8SpZ7xAVNcwRYh7HLVWzhkuB1sz fqHJA&usqp=CAU

Or just adapt the helo mount for vehicles would seem doable
https://duotechservices.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/agm-114-hellfire-missile.jpg

[blazejos]

Here nice photo of Mi-8AMTSh which is actually modern version of Mi-8 in Russian Army

https://mil.in.ua/en/news/china-sends-parts-for-helicopters-to-russia-despite-the-sanctions/

https://mil.in.ua/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/Polish_20230311_105246116-1.jpg


Airbus H125 Ecureuil are still delivered they belong to Border Guard but as Ukrainians said they also are use in military duties.

https://mil.in.ua/en/news/state-border-guard-service-of-ukraine-received-new-helicopters/

https://mil.in.ua/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/273218519_1025688944692415_2381025973627209715_n-1536x1024.jpg

[blazejos]

Now pass around a year from this event a Mi-8 and Mi-24 supply raids to azovstal. Here short movie 5:12

https://youtu.be/XxZDQ_dKpQI

[whdonnelly]

Osprey in it's current configuration may be officially dead, perhaps too many design flaws.

https://www.military.com/daily-news/2023/03/24/military-quietly-stops-buying-ospreys-aircraft-faces-uncertain-future.html?ESRC=eb_230327.nl

[Suhiir]

New tech, and the Osprey is still essentially new tech, ALWAYS has problems (ask any engineer).

Only fools expect 100% reliability and safety from anything, even more-so if they're dumb enough to expect it from new tech.

[blazejos]

Articles with nice photos about Black Hawk i Ukrainian service
https://en.defence-ua.com/news/how_the_american_black_hawk_helicopter_serves_the_ ukrainian_military-6411.html
https://en.defence-ua.com/weapon_and_tech/more_details_about_ukrainian_black_hawk_hours_for_ pilot_training_combat_missions_and_suggestive_live ry_video-6417.html


Mi-8 and Mi-24 actually livery
https://en.defence-ua.com/media/contentimages/095643592b009924.jpg

Sea King in their service with photos
https://mil.in.ua/en/news/the-ukrainian-military-discussed-sea-king-helicopters/
https://en.defence-ua.com/weapon_and_tech/rare_bird_how_ukrainians_use_british_40_year_old_s ea_king_helicopters_and_what_historic_role_one_of_ them_played_in_1982_falklands_war-6395.html

AW101 for Polish navy expected this summer
https://mil.in.ua/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/photo_2021-11-09_07-45-28-gigapixel-height-900px2.jpg

[blazejos]

Info about lose of Mi-8MTPR-1 EW helicopter which looks like ordinary new Mi-8
https://mil.in.ua/en/news/the-russians-lost-an-ew-helicopter/
https://en.defence-ua.com/weapon_and_tech/yesterday_russians_lost_two_rare_mi_8mtpr_1_electr onic_warfare_helicopters_of_which_they_had_less_th an_20-6704.html
https://en.defence-ua.com/media/illustration/articles/aa964609c3e14688.jpg
https://mil.in.ua/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/PTS_9954.jpg

[Suhiir]

Rather nice vid on CCP helo development and types.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h00t5mn_Xao

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

USA "FARA" goes the way of the "COMMANCHE" (Which already was in the game when I came along but, not for long soon afterwards!?! ;)) The first is where I found this out and the second goes into greater detail on how it's affected other USA helicopter programs along with some "pipe dreams" such as the COMMANCHE (And now FARA.) and others.
https://www.flightglobal.com/helicopters/us-army-cancels-next-generation-fara-scout-helicopter/156865.article?utm_campaign=FG-DEFENCE-SUBS%20FILLER-140224-DE&utm_medium=email&utm_source=email&utm_content=newsletter
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/the-army-s-scout-helicopter-is-cursed/ar-BB1igrVm

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[DRG]

The RAH-66 was in the July/2003 version of the US OOB but gone by the March/2005 release. There was an early "future" weapons phase some OOB designers went through which caused no end of aggravation later on when none of the projects made it past the "great idea" phase. At the time it was put in the project had not yet been canceled ( 2004)

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Don was getting that "SECURI" notification again and had to delete all my references concerning the below You know how I do business for now based on that the below is good. I had 10-12 refs to support what I have below but am "burnt out" at present the one's about NORWAY are good. Something on Shrapnel's security side must not like "linked" articles attached to MSN and Yahoo. It's just my best guess because one or the other above caused an issue you might remember on a post; I sent a PM to you on within the last months. I was able to post it upon removal. Just would be nice to know if the site changed its security protocols concerning refs from the web, never saw this "SECURI" issue until recently but verified that is a web-based security firm.


They actually were around for much longer the COMMANCHE see "FBPP" for the following:

Page 3; Post #27 11-21-10, 07:40 PM Item 4 and

Page 4; Post #40 01-23-11, 09:03 PM HELO Section Items D3. & D4. (Israel) bottom of the page.

That a small part of 3 almost full pages of submissions in the Patch Post Thread in the time above.

My favorite post was when I submitted the NH-90 (Top of Page 5 Item A4.) (That turned out to be a very unreliable helicopter.) for the "hidden" OOB of NEW ZEALAND I came across in the game!?! :p

Anyway to say the least it didn't get in the game. :D

I think Don would agree if he went done "memory lane" after this would agree was "one heck of a year" or something like that.

Also submitted a couple of more "clean up" items at the very bottom of that same page, one of which I believe went back to the original game.

New Zealand above, just reminded me of the following:

AUSTRAILIA/CHANGE/NZ MH-90/UNIT 446/NAME/NH-90 Taipan VICE NZ NH-90 (Sorry I had to laugh when I saw that given the above!)/END DATE/SEP 2023 VICE DEC 2025. // These helicopters have been nothing but trouble since they've operated. Germany is another major operator that's had problems with one European operator telling the manufacturer to take theirs back, and they did. A second tragic crash late last Summer was "The straw that broke the camel's back. "

They were planned to be in service until 2037.

And as seems usual when I find things: :rolleyes:
NEVER MIND the :rolleyes: at first, I thought there was more to the next until I rechecked it.

AUSTRAILIA/CHANGE/S-70 BLACKHAWK/UNIT 444/NAME/S-70A-9 Black Hawk VICE S-70 BLACKHAWK. // A minor change for a rainy day but it is their designation.

AUSTRAILIA/CHANGE/UH-60 Blackhawk/UNIT 445/NAME/UH-60M Black Hawk VICE UH-60 Blackhawk/START DATE/JUN/or OCT 2024 VICE APR 2024. // They only have 3 helos at this time being used for training. Thought I saw an article where they were thinking of leasing more from the USA
to expediate the training program. As you might remember I get the OFFICIAL Army "Newspaper" every week so like with the BOXER you'll have the FOC when I get it from them.

And BEFORE SOMEONE THINKS ABOUT IT, OFFICIAL means just that and NOT like ARMY TIMES/NAVY TIMES/MARINE CORPS TIMES etc. here.

Worthwhile "bits" from the above refs.:

"The irony of the entire Australian NH90 fiasco is that the nightmare helicopter was originally selected in preference to the UH-60M Black Hawk under the Air 9000 Australian Additional Battlefield Mobility Helicopter program back in 2004-05, apparently due to political and industrial considerations rather than operational ones."

"Australia is also expecting the delivery of new AH-64E Apache helicopters starting in 2025, to replace the Eurocopter EC665 Tiger attack helicopters."

IN CLOSING:

Concerning the NH-90 Taipan I can see END DATE of JUL 2023 as they did not fly again after the accident that month. What I summitted though was the official date vice the "safety-stand down" date. .

NORWAY was the country that has cancelled the contract and told them to come and get the rest.
"The Defense Ministry is concerned that “as of today, only eight have been delivered in a fully operational configuration. The fleet is currently required to provide 3,900 flight hours annually but in recent years it has averaged only about 700 hours.”
https://breakingdefense.com/2022/06/norway-terminates-nh90-helicopter-program-with-few-good-options-for-replacement/
https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news-detail/norway-cancels-nh90-demands-refund
https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news-detail/norway-to-replace-nh90-helicopters-with-mh-60r
(Between 2025-2027.)

Australia ALSO operates the MH-60R I didn't see it in the OOB. Bit tired if you or someone else wants to check please.
I believe I read they were on loan from the Navy for operational and ground support.

I can run this down tomorrow for info you need all I want is OOB VERIFICATION AND IF YOU WANT THEM IN IF NOT THERE.

This has been CAPS LOCK OR NOT mess throughout this post all day yesterday doing checks in continuous rain for over 8 hours and 7.5 miles. Unable to sleep (And counting sheep felt like I was checking buildings, magazines and other things again. If they come again tonight I'll sheer them and roast them when I'm finished. :fire: :cheers:)

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Added 2250 my time.
From the Army News edition dated 31 August 2023 about 6 weeks after the crash and grounding of the NH-90; I highlighted key data below to support JULY END DATE which is more plausible now based on next below AHEAD of the article.

If you recall I discussed a similar issue with South Africa having grounded their ROOIVALK for 18 months (Which we did as well.) with a gap until I submitted the ROOIVALK Mk I when it became operational.

See FBPP Thread Page 11 Post #105 in A1 & C6 for more.

"Combined air assault a success
Capt Joanne Leca


Soldiers from 4 Regt, RAA take up positions during a bilateral air assault exercise on Exercise Alon. Photos: LCpl Riley Blennerhassett
MORE than 600 soldiers from the ADF, Philippines and US conducted an air assault near Rizal, the Philippines, during Exercise Alon as part of Indo-Pacific Endeavour.

Using a combination of air, sea, and land actions, with support from the US Marine Corps, the exercise began on August 20 with insertion of ground combat elements via MV-22B Osprey from MRF-D (USMC-Mine), launched from HMAS Canberra.

Close air support was provided by RAAF E-7A Wedge tail and F-35A Lightning II aircraft.

A helicopter assault force then established a link with the 3rd Philippine Marine Bde to secure the Punta Baja Airfield, and set up a forward arming and refuelling point.

On August 21, a joint raid was conducted at Tarumpitao Airfield by the combined forces, also with close air support.


Lt Isaac Jarvinen, of 1RAR, takes cover behind a wall during the air assault.

Lt-Col Noel A Gallaza, commander of the Philippines landing force, said the exercise demonstrated the defence forces’ collective strength to face any challenge.

“Only together, with our combined capabilities, equipment and soldiers can we promote security and stability in our region,” Lt-Col Gallaza said.

“It’s about unity and collaboration with our partners, that is why we are here.”

The event marked the first major training serial of the bilateral cooperation between the Armed Forces of the Philippines and the ADF as part of Indo-Pacific Endeavour 2023.

Commander landing force of th e Australian Amphibious Force Col Douglas Pashley said the activity was a tremendous success.

“I’m very impressed with the degree of integration and partnership I’ve seen on this exercise,” Col Pashley said.

“We came together less than two weeks ago, and then we were able to conduct a complex multinational air assault.

“We never do things alone; we always need a partner.

“Young Australians, Filipinos and US marines will remember this for the rest of their lives.”

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[DRG]

AUSTRAILIA/CHANGE/S-70 BLACKHAWK/UNIT 444/NAME/S-70A-9 Black Hawk VICE S-70 BLACKHAWK. // A minor change for a rainy day but it is their designation.


Pat

Save yourself a lot of typing or do a bit of investigation before making change suggestions like this. There are limits on unit names so NONE of this is really usable

The one above becomes

S-70A-9 Black H

In game reality what was there is more generally useable to a non-detail fetish player which is why "S-70 Blackhawk" was used.... it tells a player what it is and most importantly..... IT FITS the game name restrictions

VERY few players care that it is an A-9. It's fiddly rivet counting. S-70 Black Hawk with the name split into two words fits though but "UH-60M Black Hawk" does NOT fit the game format either and becomes UH-60M Black Ha when entered and dropping the M does not help

What was there was there because it worked when Black Hawk is Blackhawk and why the Black Hawks in the US OOB are Blackhawk

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Don,
Sorry didn't know about name restrictions in place.

As you know I'm about national nomenclature where possible as it's easy to track upgrades for a particular OOB as they are published.

But again, wasn't aware of name restrictions.

Just got home and turned on the TV and saw a video of Ukrainian troops withdrawing from Avanika in M-113's (Dutch ones.) and noted along both sides modified "SLAT" armor in that the mesh over the slats were of tighter "weave" then found on a chain link fence and sturdier as well. The same was mounted about 1 foot over the width and length of the roof line up to the hatch at least.

Would assume this would be true for most of the rest as well.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[DRG]

Nothing showing up on line about it yet that I can find

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Saw the video on CNN/CBS Evening News. Yesterday and again this evening.

ALSO I need to step back the roof section to the BACK 1/4 of the roof to provide protection to the fuel bladders inside the hull at the rear of the M-113 tracks.

Found the video it comes fast around 40s mark just after you see troops on foot running in a wooded area.
https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2024/02/19/russia-ukraine-avdiivka-nick-paton-walsh-pkg-lead-vpx.cnn

Just checked my link above and it works.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[DRG]

Yes. I saw the short shot of it. I will add a slat version

found a photo


https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Fkxpq2gl4 y5wb1.png%3Fwidth%3D1080%26format%3Dpng%26auto%3Dw ebp%26s%3D2925880c5966d47caad0153e0a6746a8b4b8fa77

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

So far there's been no word I the 'new" helo replacement for the PUMA HC2 we modified and as it turned out, saved. The article says they'll still be in service through 2028, however, due to several delays partly to blame on you know what and other factors I feel fully confident they'll make 2030 as well based on the 2nd Ref. concerning the extension.
https://www.flightglobal.com/defence/raf-puma-helicopter-fleet-could-soldier-on-until-2028/153340.article
https://www.raf.mod.uk/aircraft/puma-hc2/
https://www.airforce-technology.com/news/newsrafs-puma-mk2-helicopter/
(One of the refs. I used at the time. Don where's the time gone!?!)

Since I found that article things obviously have changed Ref. 2 below is saying the competition is still on and a contract is not likely to be signed until 2025 sometime.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/future-uk-military-helicopter-reaches-next-competition-stage

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Just a little diversion...Operation Mount Hope III.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2020/06/11/in-1988-us-army-special-operations-helicopters-slipped-into-central-africa-to-snatch-a-soviet-made-hind-gunship/

Every "now and then" you might catch them in training ops near I-95 just south of Savannah, Ga. when operating out of Army Hunter Field.

Only one unit flies the Chinook with an extended refueling probe.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[Pibwl]

Hungary in July 23 received first of H225M Caracal https://vpk.name/en/747323_hungary-received-the-first-two-h225m-caracal-helicopters.html (French unit 520). Reportedly can be armed with 12.7mm machine guns and 20 mm Nexter NC-621 cannons and launchers of 70 mm rockets.

Czech Republic in Aug 23 shown their first AH-1Z Viper. They're meant to be armed with Hellfire and APKWS. It also got first UH-1Y Venom by that time.

[Pibwl]

Japan

363 AH-64DJP Apache - ending year should be probably 125 (now it's 109, earlier than corrected starting date)

Japanese Wikipedia says, according to the translator, that DJP was Boeing's designation, but Japanese forces call it just "AH-64D" (https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/AH-64D_%E3%82%A2%E3%83%91%E3%83%83%E3%83%81%E3%83%BB% E3%83%AD%E3%83%B3%E3%82%B0%E3%83%9C%E3%82%A6, search for "DJP" in text). The same in Polish monographic article. The same for units 364, 951 AH-64DJP Apache.

Czech Republic
It's a detail, but 901 W-3A helicopters are also named Sokol in Czechia (Polish: Sokół).

Poland
I forgot, that since 1/24 Poland uses AW149 :) https://www.janes.com/osint-insights/defence-news/defence/poland-clears-aw149-helicopters-for-operations. Italian unit 490 AW139 could do, with an increased carry capacity to 19. An armament as for now are only two 7.62 mm MGs in windows and 2x 7x70 mm rocket pods (not used before in this caliber).

[Pibwl]

I've found and article on Malaysia. Sorry for digging... I wanted to fix only S-61A4 Nuri, but the deeper you dig, the more questions come...

324 S-61A4 Nuri - grounded permanently after a crash in 8/19 due to wear out and lack of spares (now ends 12/25). Unless we assume, that in case of war they would fly somehow.

We have currently (only the 21st century):
325 - Mil Mi-17 Available 01/099 to 12/125;
326 - S-70A Blackhawk - Available 01/097 to 12/104
327 - S-70A Blackhawk - Available 01/105 to 12/125
- but the article doesn't mention any other transport helicopters existing in Malaysian military in last decade or two apart from H225M (unit 664) and S-61A4 Nuri, grounding of which caused problems with transport capability.

Wikipedia doesn't list Malaysia among Mi-8/17 operators either, apart from Malaysian Fire and Rescue Department.
There were some rumours, that S-70 were to be delivered by Brunei in 2015, but it is not clear if they were https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikorsky_UH-60_Black_Hawk, which links to https://web.archive.org/web/20150322140651/http://www.malaysiandefence.com/?p=5827

Starting from 12/21, the air force leased 4 AW-139 (we can do without them I think), and the army leased 4 UH-60A expected in 1/24 as a stopgap - but as I read, they were not delivered https://aviationweek.com/defense/aircraft-propulsion/malaysia-calls-black-hawk-deal-after-lessor-fails-deliver

Wikipedia doesn't list any of older helicopters (Bell 205, Agusta 212N, Whirlwind, Belvedere, Wessex) in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_of_the_Malaysian_Armed_Forces - unless the earliest ones are purely RAF. I have no other knowledge here


As for light helicopters:
We have (in the 21st century only):
307 - Wasp - Available 01/088 to 12/125
308 - Sioux - Available 01/074 to 12/125
310 - Alouette III - Available 01/063 to 12/110
311 - Chetak - Available 01/081 to 12/125
312 - Fennec - Available 01/103 to 12/125
313 - A-109 - Available 01/090 to 12/125
314 - A-109R - Available 01/103 to 12/125

Wasps were used by the navy until 2000 only.
Alouettes were withdrawn from 2009 from the army, but in 2017 from the airforce.
Fennecs are used indeed by the navy.
A109 were bought by the army only in 2005/2006.
There is no mention on any other light helos in recent period (and it is doubtful if Sioux survived that much).

However, in 3/23 MD 530G were introduced to service, as light scout/attack helicopters. They have observation devices and can be armed with 7.62mm or 12.7mm MGs and 70mm rockets.
https://www.mdhelicopters.com/malaysia-md-530g-initial-acceptance-training-complete/
https://fl360aero.com/detail/malaysian-defense-ministry-received-six-md-530g-light-scout-attack-helicopters-little-birds-from-md-helicopters-texas/818

Armed helicopters are in class 221 Light Attack Helicopter
540 - Ranger - Available 01/074 to 12/088 (?)
541 - Ranger - Available 01/074 to 12/088 (?)
542 - Gazelle - Available 01/078 to 12/083 (Wikipedia doesn't list Malaysia among users in Gazelle nor List of aircraft of the Malaysian Armed Forces articles)
544 - Wasp - Available 01/088 to 12/103 (until 2000, as above)
546 - Fennec - Available 06/103 to 12/125
548 - Super Lynx - Available 06/099 to 12/125 (used by the navy indeed)

[Pibwl]

Portugal

275 SA330 Puma - according to https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/A%C3%A9rospatiale_SA-330_Puma used only from 1970 until 2009 (now 1969-2011) (first operational flight in Angola in 10/70, probably available a bit earlier)

280 EH101 Merlin - better icon is 1904, since they are camouflaged https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Portuguese_Air_Force_EH-101_Merlin.jpg

[Pibwl]

Brazil

903 - AH-2 Sabre - Available 04/110 to 12/125
904 - AH-2 Sabre - Available 04/110 to 12/125
- withdrawn in 8/22 https://www.aeroflap.com.br/fab-esta-desativando-seus-dois-ultimos-mi-35/

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

First "NOT SO FAST" the last post provides for one Squadron of the AH-2 SABRA.

However, from that same reference further down we have the following...

"The retirement of the attack helicopters also leaves an uncertain fate for the Poti Squadron (2nd/8th GAV), which operated the Mi-35s in Porto Velho (RO). The same source added that there is a possibility that the unit will be deactivated or continue in operation with H-60 ​​Black Hawk helicopters but says that so far there is no guarantee of this. "

I recommend leaving them in there UFN.

Trying to avoid someone chasing ghosts at this time.

Digging into this after I post this.

The reason I'm here is to post the following on HIMARS getting 4 helicopter kills behind Russian lines. The warheads are larger than I thought they are 200lb fragmentation rounds versus what I thought were 150lbs.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/ukraine-s-special-operators-say-they-scored-a-himars-hit-on-russia-s-helicopters-including-its-fearsome-ka-52-attack-helos/ar-AA1ByQMq?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=4cd61452480942c3bf4f805c11e14f45&ei=46

Regards,
Pat

[RC4]

Portugal

275 SA330 Puma - according to https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/A%C3%A9rospatiale_SA-330_Puma used only from 1970 until 2009 (now 1969-2011) (first operational flight in Angola in 10/70, probably available a bit earlier)

280 EH101 Merlin - better icon is 1904, since they are camouflaged https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Portuguese_Air_Force_EH-101_Merlin.jpg

IN 02/08/1969
OUT 14/04/2011
https://altimagem.blogspot.com/2014/07/sud-aviation-sa-330-puma-primeira-parte.html

Thanks

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

BRAZIL AH-2 SABRA UNITS 903 and 904 The following is I believe would serve as a good and viable END for this helicopter and allow a little "swag" for the other squadron I noted in my last post.

I recommend END JUN 2022.
https://www.aviacionline.com/brazilian-army-gears-up-for-new-attack-helicopter-fleet
(This is saying the last were retired just before the Russian invasion of the Ukraine. Dated 04 March 2024.

Other sites are saying Mar/Apr of 2022 of the retiring.

I'm still very comfortable with the END as just submitted.

It certainly covers all the "ambiguity" with these various dates on the web concerning the AH-2 SABRA retirement date.

ALSO... Brazil is to receive UH-60M Black Hawk (TI/GSR 40) helicopters to arrive by 2027.
https://en.clickpetroleoegas.com.br/Historic-agreement-Brazilian-Air-Force-invests-billions-in-new-helicopters-with-Pentagon-support-to-strengthen-defense/

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Concerning Post 185 Poland AW-149 weapons, don't know about the machine guns or rocket pods (They do make sense though.) unless they are the ones the Italians have on theirs?

But those weapons are not listed in your ref. What is however in your JANES ref is the following...
"The AW149 is replacing the Mil Mi-2 ‘Hoplite' and some PZL-Świdnik W-3PL Głuszec multirole battlefield helicopters and will be armed with Lockheed Martin AGM-114 Hellfire II air-to-surface missiles. Deliveries are scheduled to run until 2029."

Also, according to JANES the START should be JAN 2024 as the article (Dated 8 JAN 2024.) clearly states the first 3 received were formally cleared and are fully operational and fielded by that date.
https://www.janes.com/osint-insights/defence-news/defence/poland-clears-aw149-helicopters-for-operations

Recommend two UNITS one as submitted in Post 185 and a second with the MG's and HELLFIRE II missiles.

If Poland is receiving them from Italy with HF II capability you can be sure that Italy has theirs equipped with them as well as those missiles would require an advanced FCS.

More on them...
"The AW149s, in a configuration corresponding to the needs of the Polish Armed Forces, will be equipped with observation systems, small arms, guided missiles, unguided rockets, and self-defense systems. The helicopters will also be armed with the Hellfire missiles, 800 of those have been requested by Poland to the U.S. via a Foreign Military Sale (FMS). The armament, depending on the type and the helicopter’s configuration, may be installed in the cabin or externally on the stub wings."
https://theaviationist.com/2023/08/01/first-aw149-polish-land-
forces/

HELLRIRE II Missile: Was introduced in 1992 and has been continually updated since. Latest version as also used on APACHE the system uses a common launcher the M299 which holds 4 of these missiles. I expect the AW-149 should be able to carry 2 launchers fully loaded. APACHE-64E can hold 4 launchers or 16 missiles. We primarily use the "LONGBOW" version and the more recently the R9X HELLFIRE has become available sort of an "assassins' bullet" some refer to it as the "NINJA BOMB" suited more for operations using a UAV.
https://www.lockheedmartin.com/content/dam/lockheed-martin/mfc/pc/hellfire/23-05810-TM_AGMS-HELLFIRE-II-Product-Card-1.pdf
https://theaviationist.com/2025/03/01/hellfire-r-9x-ninja-missile-video/
(It deploys 6 blades and essentially "chops and dices" it's way to the target. It's a non-explosive weapon.)

Regards,
Pat
:capt: