scouts in early age

[fantasma]

Hi all,

the general motto is never to recruit scouts from fortresses, but in many early age games indie scouts are not available, at least not in the early stages. Do you forgo scouts completely or use some of your fortress turns?

Once upkeep kicks in seriously there usually is a fortress left where a mage is too expensive, but before that?

[WingedDog]

I don't think it's wrong to hire scout in a fort if you realise you need scout more than a mage right now. Intelligence is important.

[Calahan]

Intelligence is important.
This couldn't be more true :)

Or sadly more lacking in most players when it comes to making strategic decisions in-game :(

[Redeyes]

I have a suspicion that one of the reasons Caelum often does so well is its flying scouts...

[Warhammer]

The opposite is a big reason why I hate glamour nations. I was playing a friend who had TNN, my Eagle Kings were raining lightning from the sky, when he tried to counter them, my mammoths rode them down, and then when he KNEW I was going to use a storm, I had my archers light him up. But, everytime I pushed him hard or tried raiding, I would hit one of his major armies and lose the force. I wound up losing because even though I won all the big battles, I lost the war of attrition. I wasn't sure where to hit him because I couldn't see his armies. Had he played a non-glamour nation, I would have won.

EDIT: Intelligence is HUGE in this game.

[fantasma]

But what do you do, then? Let's say in the second/third year when you did not cover up any scout province?

[Warhammer]

Recruit from a fortress.

[Gandalf Parker]

Ive never been big on that. Why would scouts be less available in early age? It seems to me that a scout is about the simplest unit for a province to be able to provide. Knights, longbowman, chariots, and maybe elephants I could see as a later developments. But scouts?

As far as using them...
As in every absolute answer in this game it could be followed by a tiny print disclaimer at the bottom "NOTE: Tested in (solo or mp) with xxxxx mods, on a ##/player prov ratio, and only if not starting next to xxxxxxxx nation"

But having said that, Ive never been big on the "dont get scouts" thing. The efficiency of use has been laid out in unarguable spreadsheeted displays. I cant argue the math. But PLAYING the game for fun, for me, tends to want scout reports. What I do is try to make a mage, or a commander if I need one. But if I am building up an army to go out then sometimes and I put everything into units with just enough left over to get a scout then I will get one. I never want to waste that. A scout might be my last choice (in some cases), but its never a non-choice.

I might mention that the lack of scounts in early age is one of the reasons I love playing Pangaea or Arcos in that age.

[fantasma]

So you really do that instead of a mage? I usually find myself in a position where everything else is more important to get done at that stage, but so is scouting.

Gandalf, it is more that there are many more tribal nations around than the standard scout/commander/priest type.

[Gandalf Parker]

Usually I wont take a scout instead of a mage (USUALLY).
But there are times when I want to build up an army fast and I dont have enough for the mages I want, and no immediate need of another commander or priest, so I get a scout.

As far as Early Age games, I really cant see the never a scout thing. BUT I can see the suggestion that new players should look really hard at using other provinces to make commanders. Until later in the game when I want thugs, I can often skip getting elite commanders for some indept version. Or at least, my armies can stand to have a ratio of 1 to 5 for elites traveling with indepts. That makes sense to me, to create commanders outside the castle in a steady flow to the castle in order to pick up and move around troops.

[fantasma]

Well, I never (unless nothing better is available or am desperate) recruit commanders from forts, indeps are always good enough for moving troops.

Just to be clear, I am talking early to midgmae, creating special forces like flying or stealthy raiders is something different, but that is usually later.

What concerns me is the time when recruiting another mage is important, so is a priest to bless my troops or scouts and not everything is established.

And scouts tend to be on the receiving end of the competition.

[thejeff]

Yeah, commanders that can be thugged are an obvious exception to the recruit only mages when possible rule. Commanders with specific resistances can be another, using indy commanders with Abysia can be problematic.

The problem with the lack of scouts in EA is that you generally don't want an occasional scout here and there when you can't afford a mage, you want a lot of them. For scouting, gem carrying, etc. I've had problems with lack of scouts even when I've found a single scout province. But devoting a castle or two to just producing scouts is such a waste of money, even if you save by not building a lab or temple there.

[Warhammer]

I may have been misunderstood before, I will build them at a fortress, but will typically buy another mage first. But, if cash is a problem, I will default to a scout.

[Squirrelloid]

Bottom line: EA Ctis gets screwed. Indie scouts are rare and they can't even build national ones!

[Fantomen]

OTOH they can get a stable of black servants early, who scouts around until you pull them back and equip them as raiders.

[Foodstamp]

I start off just using the starting scout and my dominion to see what is going on. I am usually lucky enough to find a province or two that produces scouts. If I can't, then I use leftover gold to recruit scouts from fortresses if I can't afford another mage. By mid game, I usually have enough black servants running around as PD killers to do scouting in addition to indy/fortress scouts I am able to make.

The indy scout is probably one of my favorite units in the game though. 20 gold in addition to not using a mage recruitment spot... absolutely priceless!

[HoneyBadger]

I'll recruit scouts from Niefelheim. Sometimes, they're a better choice than other units, due to their relative cheapness, in combination with the sacredness, the ranged weapon, and the stealth.

They aren't a Niefel, but you can still use them to take the occasional underdefended province away, especially if you Prophetize your initial scout (which I often do). Ambushing is fun!

[Redeyes]

The opposite is a big reason why I hate glamour nations. I was playing a friend who had TNN, my Eagle Kings were raining lightning from the sky, when he tried to counter them, my mammoths rode them down, and then when he KNEW I was going to use a storm, I had my archers light him up. But, everytime I pushed him hard or tried raiding, I would hit one of his major armies and lose the force. I wound up losing because even though I won all the big battles, I lost the war of attrition. I wasn't sure where to hit him because I couldn't see his armies. Had he played a non-glamour nation, I would have won.
I really don't know, Caelum seems like a fairly good counter to TNN.

Flying units break castles extremely quickly, faster than the enemy can mobilize units to a given corner of the map.

Death and Water with alteration (which you should get for fog warriors) gives you frozen heart and disintegrate to deal with thugs.

Although I admit glamour is a great advantage...

[Edi]

The reason scouts are so rare in EA is that the distribution of independent poptypes is very different from Middle and Late Eras. Most indie poptypes with scouts are crossbows or heavy cavalry ones, which don't exist in the EA.

This leaves just one specific poptype with scouts available in EA, while there are three or four in other eras and therefore more penetration. This has been reported to IW, but there hasn't been any change in any patch.

[WingedDog]

And I thought rare EA scouts is a feature.:)
Naive.

[Warhammer]

The opposite is a big reason why I hate glamour nations. I was playing a friend who had TNN, my Eagle Kings were raining lightning from the sky, when he tried to counter them, my mammoths rode them down, and then when he KNEW I was going to use a storm, I had my archers light him up. But, everytime I pushed him hard or tried raiding, I would hit one of his major armies and lose the force. I wound up losing because even though I won all the big battles, I lost the war of attrition. I wasn't sure where to hit him because I couldn't see his armies. Had he played a non-glamour nation, I would have won.
I really don't know, Caelum seems like a fairly good counter to TNN.

Flying units break castles extremely quickly, faster than the enemy can mobilize units to a given corner of the map.

Death and Water with alteration (which you should get for fog warriors) gives you frozen heart and disintegrate to deal with thugs.

Although I admit glamour is a great advantage...

Not arguing any of the above. Caelum is good, but they can't stand toe to toe with anyone. You raid and hit your enemy where they're not, etc. My problem was I kept hitting him where he was, and although I won 90% of the battles, I lost the war because I could accept the losses I suffered, and he could.