First Blood - Newbie game - Finished - Rotarr/Nightfall/Sephorin win!

[Valerius]

I'm starting another newbie game with the same settings as the recent Boot Camp game. Looking for players with 0-3 games experience for a friendly intro to Dominions MP, using standard mods and settings.

I wrote up an intro to Dominions MP (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=46314) and you may also be interested in some of the conversation from the Boot Camp thread (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=46238).


Settings

Age: MA
Players: 8
Banned nations: water nations and Ashdod
Hosting: llamaserver (http://www.llamaserver.net/) - llamaserver FAQ is here (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=35160)
Hosting interval: 24 hours up to turn 20, 48 hours up to turn 40, 72 hours from then on
Mods: CBM 1.6 (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=43949) and EDM 1.1 (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=45056)
Map: Parganos (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=39857) (dead seas version - this means you can conquer sea provinces but they will not provide gold/gem income)
Hall of Fame: 15
All other settings default

Note: Apparently PM's are turned off by default when you create your forum account. You'll want them on as this is a much quicker way to conduct diplomacy than the in-game message system.


Player Roster

Abysia - Nightfall
Bandar Log - cwkjc
C'tis - Groundworm
Eriu - attackdrone
Mictlan - rotarr
Pangaea - Sephorin
Pythium - mockingbird
Vanheim - Martin Trouman

Note: We have several players that I wasn't able to accommodate for Boot Camp and since they were first to sign up for this game they have already selected nations.

[TaoCuathon]

ill give it a shot with Acroscephale. ive almost never played non Indy 0 games on SP so it will be interesting to see if i can recall my early games on the demo versions where you actually had to build armies.

[TaoCuathon]

ill give it a shot with Acroscephale. ive almost never played non Indy 0 games on SP so it will be interesting to see if i can recall my early games on the demo versions where you actually had to build armies.

woops. dont know how to edit.

anyways can i change my nation to jotunheim?

i just realized my pretender strategy i want to try works way better with them than with my previous choice.

so after making the post i noticed i can edit this one but not my previous one. never seen that before.

[Valerius]

anyways can i change my nation to jotunheim?

i just realized my pretender strategy i want to try works way better with them than with my previous choice.

Sure, I've signed you up as Jotun.

so after making the post i noticed i can edit this one but not my previous one. never seen that before.

Unfortunately, you can only edit posts for 20 minutes (or maybe it's 30?). The only exception is the first post in a thread you start. Which is a good thing or it would be real difficult to run MP games. :)

[Groundworm]

I'd love to join in as C'tis. Who doesn't like swamp lizards?

Thanks for hosting another newbie game, Valerius!

[Valerius]

I'd love to join in as C'tis. Who doesn't like swamp lizards?

Usually most of their neighbors. ;)

Thanks for hosting another newbie game, Valerius!

You're welcome! :)

[TaoCuathon]

so, will you be playing in the game valerius, or do we still need 3 more players? im eager to test out my theory crafted multiplayer strategies in a non SP setting. had to make a few changes because i realized i had set my dominion to 1 instead of the 10 i needed, but not a huge deal. also, i guess i have to download CBM to see if my pretender strategy is viable in non-vanilla. any ideas as to where i can find the cbm mod?

okay i saved the mod files, but i cant put them in the dominions folder. how do i set up my game to use them?

[Valerius]

so, will you be playing in the game valerius, or do we still need 3 more players?

Nope, I'm just here in an admin role so we need 3 more players.

im eager to test out my theory crafted multiplayer strategies in a non SP setting. had to make a few changes because i realized i had set my dominion to 1 instead of the 10 i needed, but not a huge deal.

I think discussion adds to the fun and I hope we can have that throughout the game, but be careful you don't give any of your plans away. ;) Though I will say dominion 10 for Jotunheim is an unusual approach...

also, i guess i have to download CBM to see if my pretender strategy is viable in non-vanilla. any ideas as to where i can find the cbm mod?

Sure, I've linked to the CBM and EDM mods in the first post. You'll definitely want to check your pretender build with CBM loaded - there's a chance your build will cost less than it does in vanilla, leaving more points for use in other areas (scales, magic diversity, etc.)

[rotarr]

Thanks for helping out us newbies like this, Valerius!

[MartinTrouman]

I've been lurking a while and I'm ready for a MP game :)

I'll go with Vanheim

[TaoCuathon]

woohoo, only 2 people to go!

up until vanheim i was happy with peoples picks, another cold nation is gonna mess with my dom push.

also im still having trouble with the mods. i think i may have gotten them to work, but i cant be totally sure.

[Valerius]

Thanks for helping out us newbies like this, Valerius!

You're welcome! These games are actually quite fun to organize. :) And play in - my first few games were among my favorites.

I've been lurking a while and I'm ready for a MP game :)

I'll go with Vanheim

I'm a former lurker myself. Nice to see you join in and that Vanheim, one of my favorite nations, will make the cut this time.

woohoo, only 2 people to go!

up until vanheim i was happy with peoples picks, another cold nation is gonna mess with my dom push.

also im still having trouble with the mods. i think i may have gotten them to work, but i cant be totally sure.

Well, at least nobody's chosen Abysia yet - they've got the best dom push capability in the MA.

If you're still having problems with the mods let me know what's happening. I'm sure we can figure it out.

But yeah, sign-ups are going quickly. At this rate we'll be full within 24 hours. Give a day for people to test their builds and we can get started by Saturday.


Everyone please note that when you are creating your pretender you will want to make sure that CBM is active (it's ok if EDM is active as well, but no other mods).

[mockingbird]

I have four games (three currently running) experience, so am a bit over the limit. However, if you need another player, I'd be happy to join the game.

[Valerius]

I have four games (three currently running) experience, so am a bit over the limit. However, if you need another player, I'd be happy to join the game.

I think four games experience would still be ok.

I'd mainly be worried about your having time for a fourth game. Based on the date you joined the forum, it seems like the three games you're in will hit mid and late game around the same time. It's your call but be cautious: the micromanagement can get pretty bad later on...

[mockingbird]

I've got one game in late game, one in mid game, and one in early game. So far it's been entirely fine, so I'm not worried about that.

[Valerius]

I've got one game in late game, one in mid game, and one in early game. So far it's been entirely fine, so I'm not worried about that.

Ok, then you're in! What nation would you like?

[mockingbird]

I think I will try Pythium.

[Valerius]

Ok, we just need one more player.

[attackdrone]

Sign me up as Eriu, if you still have that last spot open.

[Valerius]

Yes, you are in and the game is now closed!

I'll setup the game on the llamaserver soon and we'll aim for a Saturday start.

[iRFNA]

Damn, I need to check this forum more often.. These things fill up fast!

[Avari]

Damn, I need to check this forum more often.. These things fill up fast!

My thoughts exactly! Although this game was nearly filled up even before I had the chance to get out of bed, let alone check the forum :D (timezones..!)

It sure seems there's a lot of demand for newbie games. I hope people keep doing the good deed and suffering the frustration (?) of organizing such affairs. Have a good game everyone!

[Sephorin]

Thanks, Avari. I was thinking maybe Valerius could change us to a larger map to make room for more players like you, but that would probably be too complicated now that people have started making their pretenders. I'm sure Valerius would be willing to put you down for the next game that he starts, though. He's very kind. :)

Damn, I need to check this forum more often.. These things fill up fast!

My thoughts exactly! Although this game was nearly filled up even before I had the chance to get out of bed, let alone check the forum :D (timezones..!)

It sure seems there's a lot of demand for newbie games. I hope people keep doing the good deed and suffering the frustration (?) of organizing such affairs. Have a good game everyone!

[Valerius]

This one did fill up quickly. Certainly part of it was that we started recruitment with three spots already taken, but still...

iRFNA and Avari, if you are interested I'll open up recruitment for a third game in the next day. You can already select your nations if you like.

[iRFNA]

Oh, cool, thanks!

If this is MA again, I'll do caelum. Nothing is scarier fragile, winged cannon fodder.

[Valerius]

Caelum's troops aren't very good (except at sieging) ... but you've got mammoths for squishing indies! And of course flight and cloud trapeze on your mages is very nice.

But yeah, we'll stick with MA. It's the most balanced era and I have the easiest time restraining my impulse to nerf everything I think overpowered. ;)

[TaoCuathon]

there is no use nerfing things. game is complex enough to allow for super combos no matter what you do.

[Avari]

Thank you, I'm definitely interested in the upcoming game. I'll pick Ulm, even in the face of guaranteed mammothry ;) I know it's regarded as a weak nation by many, but I think I'll go for it anyway. Thanks again and see you in the new game's thread, I guess.

[Hylobius]

Wow that was a quick fill. I've been checking the forum a couple of times a day looking for a newbie game. Guess I need to check hourly:D

Please count me in if you start another.

[iRFNA]

Just wondering, when you say "all other settings default", does that mean no renaming commanders?

[TaoCuathon]

sadly i think it means just that. and also not 75 on magic sites. sad times.

[Valerius]

Ok, First Blood players the game is ready for pretenders!

Avari, iRFNA and Hylobius I have you all signed up for the new Trinity game I just posted. Hylobius, please let me know what nation you'd like.

[Valerius]

Just wondering, when you say "all other settings default", does that mean no renaming commanders?

Renaming is allowed. No reason to torture nations with diverse randoms. :)

...and also not 75 on magic sites. sad times.

However, default settings definitely don't include sites on 75. ;)

[rotarr]

Do we automatically start after everyone sent in their Pretenders? (2 more!)

[cwkjc]

Quick hosted ?

[Valerius]

Yes, the game will start automatically when all pretenders are in.

And the game is on quickhost, so early in the game (when turns only take a few minutes) it's worth checking each turn and, if you are the last person, wait a few minutes for the game to host and then immediately work on your next turn. It really helps keep the game moving.

[cwkjc]

Sorry for my english and i know, it's not an advantage in diplomacy :)

I think, It's time to be fair and announce that i take the Baalz' pledge (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=43620&highlight=baalz) !

Other points :

I think there's a strong probability to be smashed before the date, but i'll not be available from 28 Oct to 2 Nov

In my first MP a player has used the forum to communicate to all the caracteristics of a pretender, i think we shouln't do that, just because it could be interpretated too much aggressive, using PM for intelligence is better

The wise use of this thread for game purpose is a key to keep good relations

[attackdrone]

Thanks for bringing that link to my attention, I'll sign that. There are few more annoying things in an online multiplayer game than people dropping out prematurely.

[MartinTrouman]

Sounds like good sound guidelines to play by.

I'm in

[Valerius]

Sorry for my english and i know, it's not an advantage in diplomacy :)

No need to apologize, we have players from around the world. And, your English is better than my ability in a second language. :)

I think there's a strong probability to be smashed before the date, but i'll not be available from 28 Oct to 2 Nov

Thanks for the warning. At that point we should be well into the game and can maybe put the game on hold (I find it's most important to avoid delays early on when turns only take a few minutes to complete).

In my first MP a player has used the forum to communicate to all the caracteristics of a pretender, i think we shouln't do that, just because it could be interpretated too much aggressive, using PM for intelligence is better

The wise use of this thread for game purpose is a key to keep good relations

Hmm, so I guess two players were at war and one of them said "here's all the info on nation x's pretender if anyone wants to attack him"? While I don't think this violates Dominions etiquette, I do want this to be a friendly game and I can see your point about how that it would come across as aggressive. It might be better to just say that you can provide intelligence to anyone willing to help in the attack on nation x.


As far as abandoning games goes, there's no requirement to sign a pledge but of course I agree with the idea of following through on games you sign up for. If you get off to a bad start or suffer heavy losses in battle or just aren't enjoying a particular game, I encourage you to stick with it and try your best. There's a decent chance you'll learn something new, and even if you don't you are making the game a better experience for the other players. If they do the same when the shoe is on the other foot and you are doing well while they are struggling, MP just becomes a better experience all around.

If you decide that you just don't like Dominions, or at least Dominions MP, in general and want to stop playing then things become more difficult. In this case it's understandable you'd want out but it would be nice if you could have the courtesy to line up a sub instead of just disappearing. BTW, this is another reason not to start too many games early on - if you decide you don't like Dominions MP all of a sudden many games are facing the need to replace a player instead of one or two.

[rotarr]

Those are indeed good guidelines to have when playing a MP game. It makes it far more enjoyable for everyone when everyone puts some effort in it; otherwise we could just start another SP game by ourselves...

[MartinTrouman]

We only need Jotunheim-TaoCuathon now... Need any advice or help?

[Sephorin]

I hope Mr. Cuathon is just plotting his strategy and hasn't abandoned us. :( Please let us know if you need help with anything. Hopefully we can get started soon.

[Valerius]

EDIT: I just noticed the game has started so it looks like the problem was resolved. Have fun!

[Sephorin]

Hmm. Looks like we have Caelum instead of Jotunheim. I just want to make sure that that's Mr. Cuathon and not some interloper trying to steal his spot. :)

[Valerius]

:doh: Thanks for noticing that. TaoCuathon's not on the forums at the moment so I think you may be right. I'll message the Caelum player from the llamaserver.

[rotarr]

Maybe one of us is rather a bit too anxious to get it started :D

[Sephorin]

Although, quite honestly, I'm not sure how much longer we would want to wait for Mr. Cuathon if that's not him. It's been about 40 hours since the game was posted to Llamaserver, so this doesn't bode well for him being able to make a 24 hour turnaround. :shock:

[Valerius]

He PM'd me several times over the past few days so he's been around. He ran into problems yesterday because he wasn't able to find his savedgames folder to send his pretender/turns. I assume he's using Windows Vista (or maybe 7?) and I sent him this link (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showpost.php?p=588091&postcount=2) but haven't heard back from him since then.

I'd like to hear from him. If he switched to Caelum then no problem and the game can continue. If he didn't send the Caelum pretender then we either need to resolve his problem finding the savedgames folder or find a sub.

[rotarr]

I just went ahead to see if everything works out for me (nice starting position btw, hope we can continue :P) and it does.

And Caelum sent his turn in as well, lol.

[Sephorin]

I got a crappy starting position. I hope we start over. :D

Of course, if Tao is having technical difficulties, then I'm all in favor of waiting for him. But if he's stopped communicating...

So I guess we leave the ball in your court, Valerius? If you hear from him and he still can play, then we start over. Or if he's not playing then we find a sub. Hmm. Maybe the person playing Caelum. :p

Thanks for helping us with this, Valerius.

[Valerius]

I just went ahead to see if everything works out for me (nice starting position btw, hope we can continue :P) and it does.

And Caelum sent his turn in as well, lol.

This is the worst part about restarting - someone usually ends up with a worse start position than they had the first time around. But I think we're going to have to do that since, as you noted, the mystery Caelum player has sent in a turn but not responded to my question of whether they are TaoCuathon.

I'll wait a few more minutes, then put the game back at "waiting for pretenders" (and *turn off* the autostart to avoid this happening again).

[Valerius]

Of course, if Tao is having technical difficulties, then I'm all in favor of waiting for him. But if he's stopped communicating...

He was last on the forum under twelve hours ago and his last PM to me wasn't much longer ago than that so I'm hopeful we just need to resolve his problem with the savedgames folder.

Thanks for helping us with this, Valerius.

No problem. BTW, admining a game is easy - except when things go wrong. ;)

[Sephorin]

Okay, should we wait another twelve hours, then if we don't hear from Tao, we'll just continue as we are with the mystery Caelum player? Would that be appropriate?

[Valerius]

No, I don't like having unknown players in the game. If we don't hear from Tao I'll check to see if a player that missed sign-ups for Trinity by seconds is interested in playing.

[Sephorin]

Okay, sounds good. :)

[Valerius]

I heard back from Tao and he asked that we find a sub. I PM'd Nightfall, who just missed out on the Trinity game, to see if he's interested. If not, then I'll reopen recruitment.

I see almost everyone already submitted their turns. I'm going to return the game to accepting pretenders status and remove Caelum. Sorry about the delays/restart - sometimes things just don't go smoothly.

[Valerius]

Good news! Nightfall is interested in joining the game. He is looking through the available nations to see which seems interesting. I'll reset the game now.

[Sephorin]

Wonderful news! Welcome, Nightfall. :)

[attackdrone]

It seems as though the pretender I had previously uploaded for Eriu has been saved for the relaunch of the game. As such, I assume that there is no need to resubmit my pretender. If this is not the case feel free to let me know.

[Valerius]

Yes, that's correct! There's no need to resubmit your pretenders. Sorry, I should have mentioned that in the message I sent out from the llamaserver.

[Nightfall]

Hi all,

This is my first MP game, so I'm going to try something a little wacky and give Abysia a go...

[cwkjc]

Hi Nightfall

You're welcome, thanks to join in these conditions.

Take your time and design your pretender quietly !!!

[mockingbird]

It looks like all pretenders are in. Go?

[rotarr]

Well, let's make sure Abysia is Nightfall before we get another false start...

[Sephorin]

Well, let's make sure Abysia is Nightfall before we get another false start...

:D

[Valerius]

Hopefully I won't regret this, but I'm going to assume the Abysia pretender was sent by Nightfall and not an imposter... Game on!

[rotarr]

I see we have until Wednesday to do our turns. This is just for the first turn I assume? I don't think we need a lot of time to plan these first turns.

[Sephorin]

I *think* that Valerius had put us on 72 hour slow host when we were having that issue with the mystery Caelum player. It's probably still on those settings, so the turn probably won't run until he changes things back to 24 hours quick host, even if all of us get our turns in.

[cwkjc]

Ave Valerius, morituri te salutant

And i could say : Ad augusta per angusta

[Nightfall]

Hopefully I won't regret this, but I'm going to assume the Abysia pretender was sent by Nightfall and not an imposter... Game on!

Yep, it was, all is ok...

[Valerius]

My answer is arriving kind of late since I see the first turn already hosted, but for future reference I'll mention that the llamaserver always sets a 48 hour hosting time for the first turn. This gives time to resolve any problems players may be having (or deal with Caelian interlopers ;)).


And i could say : Ad augusta per angusta

Indeed! :)

[MartinTrouman]

Nice to get the game going :)
I ran into an early though choice:

Brigands in my capital province (unerst 35 tax 50). Do I patrol with the newly produced army... or send it off for conquest?

Ended off opting for the 2nd option - but I'm still unsure.

[Valerius]

Those events are always tough but I think you made the right choice - have to keep expanding. Since unrest hits both gold and available resources you may want to factor that into which province you choose to take next. If your dominion has spread to an indie province you'll have info on its gold/resources, if not you can go with tendencies such as mountains = resources, farmlands = gold.

[attackdrone]

Ah the joys of Turmoil. Also with CBM I believe that Luck/Misfortune each add 7% random event chance per level instead of 5%; there would be a +36% chance with full Luck/Misfortune + Turmoil.

[rotarr]

I wonder how long we can keep up this amazing speed of 3 turns a day :D

[Sephorin]

Has it really been three turns/day? Pretty darn quick group we are. But don't worry, I'm sure one of us will stale soon. :D

[attackdrone]

I might take a while this turn, as I'm waiting for diplomacy to conclude before processing my turn. It'll be done by the deadline though!

Edit: That wasn't long at all!

[mockingbird]

Sorry for the delay, I'm just waiting on some diplomacy.

[Nightfall]

I wouldn't actually call anything you've said to me diplomacy, and I outright reject your ultimatim, I choose 3, if you want to attack, and we both know you will, your the agressor.

By the way, for those of you that haven't noticed, Pythium will probably take another 4 provinces in the next 2 turn, several of which are currently mine, and at the same time wall off another ten for himself.

When that happens he will effectively control 32 provinces and close to a third of the entire income in the game...

But I'm sure all that combined with the lying and bullying that he calls diplomacy, is just good strategy, unfortunately it's a crap introduction to MP Domionions, and this newbie is not feeling any friendliness in this game.

:down:

[mockingbird]

With all due respect, I would like to point that accusing another player of lying and bullying is, well, not very friendly.

I have previously played with some of the other players in this game and enjoyed courteous and cordial relationships with them.

There is a great deal of mystery on my part as to why an attempt to negotiate borders and arrange a non-aggression pact has inspired such ill will.

[MartinTrouman]

... sounds like we have our first war here in our little world.

But I agree... there should be high friendliness factor in these introduction games.


edit: sent before mockingbirds reply...
there seems to have been communication breakdown... Let us know if you agree on where the diplomacy went evil... maybe we can learn something

[mockingbird]

Mockingbird's summary view of a diplomacy gone weirdly wrong follows.

Nightfall: Hi! I'm concerned that you're advancing towards our territory.

Me: Don't worry, I'm not trying to be aggressive. But I would feel better if our border were at a strategic choke point. I will of course offer compensation for any territory you give up.

Nightfall: No, you should give up a province instead. I'll give you a token payment for it.

Me: I don't want to give up the province. How about a one-for-one province swap instead to make for better borders?

Nightfall: Your proposal makes no sense. You're obviously out to get me and will invade next turn.

Me: ???

[turn happens, I do not in fact invade]

Nightfall: You're out to get me, and I think I will have to wage war to defend myself.

Me: ??? ... Okay, how about we just settle for the border we have now? I'm happy to sign a peace treaty and leave it at that. Or will you have war between us? It's your choice.

Nightfall: You're a liar and a bully!

Me: ???

End result: Mockingbird is very confused

[mockingbird]

Okay, in the interest of moving the game forward I'm going to assume that Nightfall does in fact want peace and will submit my turn shortly.

I can only hope that Nightfall doesn't turn around and throw that gesture of good will in my face by invading me.

[cwkjc]

I don't have time to read now, maybe tomorrow.... ;)

I thought the game would be hosted, and i checked it.

Waiting for 2h files so it had hosted no ?
but i've received nothing (maybe i've deleted the mail, but it doesn't sound familar to me)

OK i've received it !!!!!

[Nightfall]

Wow your delusional...

Summary of the actual conversation...

Me: I see that you have just invaded an, admitted neutral, province under my dominion, please do no advance any further into my dominion.

mockingbird: (Ignores Nightfall and moves further in) By the way I expect you to give up the best 2 provinces you've managed to take so far so I can have a full quarter of the map.

Me: How about you just cede the one province I already asked you not to take and we can have a peacefull border. I'll even compensate you.

I honestly don't know whether my offer of compensation was reasonable or not, apparently mockingbird doesn't think so, but gave me no indication what would be reasonable.

mockingbird: No that will leave me disconnected (A blatant lie). Give me one or both of your provinces.

Me: How could that leave you disconnected??? Perhaps you misunderstood my offer. (Giving him the benefit of the doubt.)

mockingbird: Since you won't give me both your best provinces, I'll have to have one if you want a peacefull border. I may be willing to make a swap instead which is nothing but bad for you.

Me: FFS, I've got a crap starting position here, and your income is over double mine, with far more growth coming, please throw me a tiny bone.

mockingbird: Either give me a NAP 3 or I attack you immeadiately.

Note that at this point strategically my best option is to say I agree to the NAP and then break it within the next 2 turns, but I didn't feel comfortable doing that.

Sorry to bother everyone, and I would like to make it clear that I don't think mockingbird has done anything wrong, he hasn't, he is just playing the game.

I understand the point is to try to win, my only real point is that if you're going to play in the newbie game you may want to be just a little less full on with the actual newbies.

I'll get back in my box now...

[Nightfall]

Okay, in the interest of moving the game forward I'm going to assume that Nightfall does in fact want peace and will submit my turn shortly.

I can only hope that Nightfall doesn't turn around and throw that gesture of good will in my face by invading me.

Oh it's on... but I will not attack you this turn in order to give you the opportunity to either get back into position or try some real negotiation, rather than just trying to push me around. Up to you...

[Valerius]

I'm not sure if this will help, but I'll just mention a couple of thoughts regarding expansion.

Whenever I expand I'm always looking for choke points that I can use to build a wall around my territories. I can always go back and take other indie provinces inside that wall later. At the same time I try to be reasonable - if you get greedy and box people in and they have no direction in which to expand they have little to lose by attacking you. By and large I think early wars are bad for both parties. Assuming equal skill, you will drain each other's strength while other nations build up.

But in the end this is a war game and sometimes two parties don't see eye-to-eye and end up fighting sooner rather than later (eventually *everyone* fights - well, unless late game micro beats them down and they call it quits ;)). As far as having a friendly game I would just request that it not get personal. It can help if you try to keep in character and attack the nation, not the player.

[Nightfall]

At the same time I try to be reasonable - if you get greedy and box people in and they have no direction in which to expand they have little to lose by attacking you. By and large I think early wars are bad for both parties. Assuming equal skill, you will drain each other's strength while other nations build up.

This is exactly what I tried to explain privately, you just put it much more eloquantly than me. Although everyone else is almost certainly more skillfull than me, even an average opponent can still drain you of resources.

[cwkjc]

Nightfall, as a first MP game you are served !

Welcome and thanks again to sub TaoCuathon

Maybe Pythium is more experienced (a great early expansion), but be sure that most of us are newbies, and that's the reason i've joined this game, don't think you're less skillfull than others

[Nightfall]

Out of interest Valerious...

As admin, how much of what is happening in the games your running do you see / pay attention to?

Just curious...

[Valerius]

Normally I just see the graphs on the llamaserver and whatever is posted in this thread. If I need to sub a player I can change the nation's e-mail address to my own in order to see if the position is viable but outside of that I have less information than anyone in the game.

I check every couple of days to make sure we don't have anyone staling but other than that I just respond to requests as they arrive.

[MartinTrouman]

Hello all

It seem that the cause is lost for Vanheim. Pangaera is sieging the Vanheim capital with sufficient numbers.

I had 2 forts next to each other as I thought that I would be able to break sieges between the 2. My final atemp to relive my 2nd fort (with a good sized army) was stalled when pangaera attacked with 20 centaur archers and a standard commander. To me it had clear mark of a stalling move.. but I sense that it a tough case to argue.

Anyway... I think my complete neglection of research put me in a bad position.

I'll check in on the next turns.. but don't think there is much to do. What are the procedures to turn control over to AI?

[Sephorin]

Hello, Martin T. I'm sorry if the centaur archer attack looked like a stalling move. That actually didn't occur to me because I didn't think there was any way you would try to attack. I was trying to gauge the power of your capital army and it's vulnerability to archery. I also recall it being 33 centaur archers instead of 20, but perhaps I misremember.

Valerius, for the future, would my move be seen as against the spirit of the rules?

As for your position, I don't know if I'd give up just yet! Of course, if it's no longer any fun for you, it's certainly understandable that you'd want to stop.

[Valerius]

I'll check in on the next turns.. but don't think there is much to do. What are the procedures to turn control over to AI?

If there's really nothing you can do you can go to Options --> Become computer controlled. But if you have even just a few resources left please keep fighting. You'll certainly do a better job than the AI will and the turns won't take long. Ideally everyone plays until they are completely eliminated.

Anyway... I think my complete neglection of research put me in a bad position.

Research is crucial and Van is horrible at it (aside from the cap only dwarves) so you basically need indie mages in order to get any kind of cost effective research (or use gems to forge research boosters - but I hate wasting them on that except for some lightless lanterns).



Attempting to pin an army in place with a small force is essentially an exploit of the game mechanics. You can imagine how frustrating the game would become if everyone used that tactic. Now there's a gray area here in that something can look like a blocking move but not be intended to be one (as Sephorin mentioned above). So it comes down to intent: if you know you're trying to block movement you're violating the spirit of the game. And my experience has been that people don't want to do that and just asking them not to is all that's required.

Also, credit to both of you in handling this discussion well as these are the kinds of things that can cause hard feelings.

[Valerius]

In other news, I just realized it's time to change to 48 hour hosting. This will also postpone the current hosting time by 24 hours.

[Sephorin]

I see. Well, if we're judging by intent alone, I'm definitely innocent. :D But the more I think about it, the more I can see how what I did could certainly look like a stall tactic. Valerius, if you think that there's a penalty that I could take for my action, I would happily accept it. I want to avoid any hard feelings, if that's possible.

[Valerius]

I don't think there's a need for a penalty and you two have handled the discussion well so I don't think there will be hard feelings. :)

[Nightfall]

I should probably note here that I have apoligised to mockingbird privately for allowing my frustration to get the better of me.

While we are at war in the game, I don't harbour any ill feelings towards him.

[Groundworm]

It's difficult to get attacked and be on the losing side, or to be forced/manipulating into starting a war you know you can't win, and handle that situation gracefully. Having been there numerous times, I'm quite familiar with it. That being said, the important thing to remember is that even when you're getting completely stomped and are well on your way to losing, there is probably a lesson or two you can learn to play a better game next time.

And, as has been said, congratulations to everyone for handling some dicey diplomatic situations well.

[Valerius]

I should probably note here that I have apoligised to mockingbird privately for allowing my frustration to get the better of me.

While we are at war in the game, I don't harbour any ill feelings towards him.

I'm glad to hear that! BTW, I didn't intend my comments to MartinTrouman and Sephorin to be in any way critical of you and mockingbird.

Groundworm is quite right that it isn't always easy to handle things gracefully. The further the game goes, and the more time people have put into it, the more difficult it can become when everything falls apart. But the situation with MartinTrouman and Sephorin was particularly worrisome since it had the potential to go beyond diplomatic disagreements to charges of unfair play.


And, as has been said, congratulations to everyone for handling some dicey diplomatic situations well.

I agree completely! :)

[attackdrone]

I have an issue with running a pbem game on a Mac (OSX). I've created the folder in my HOMEDIR/users/dominions3/saves. Everything (Game, latest patch, mods) are installed and working, and I have no problem creating and playing a single player game. Yet when I place the .trn file in the specific save directory i get a crash to desktop immediately after attempting to load the save. Any ideas? It is probably something extremely simple.

Note: I had been playing dominions3 off my PC at home with no problems, but I am at my parents house for a few days and thus the Mac. Ye gods, why only one button on the mouse!?

Edit: Fixed it, was a map directory issue. False alarm folks!

[Sephorin]

I don't think there's a need for a penalty and you two have handled the discussion well so I don't think there will be hard feelings. :)

Okay, sounds good. Thanks, Valerius.

[Nightfall]

By the way, does anyone wish to trade me earth or death gems for my pile of water gems, at the moment they are being used as paperweights...

[mockingbird]

Hi,

I just wanted to let everyone know that I will be on international travel Oct 2-11. I expect to have excellent internet access and plan to continue to submit my turns as usual. However, there is always the possibility of complications, so I wanted to let you all know in advance just in case.

Best regards,
Mockingbird

[Valerius]

Ok, I'll try to check the server close to hosting and postpone if I don't see your that your turn is in.

[mockingbird]

I have a bit of a concern about the unusual lag on Bandar Log posting a turn, as compared to previous alacrity.

It would be my preference to postpone the game rather than have a player stale if possible.

[Valerius]

cwkjc hasn't logged in for a couple of days. I'll postpone hosting by 12 hours and message him through the llamaserver.

[Valerius]

No word yet from cwkjc. I'm putting another 24 hours on the clock. Hopefully we'll hear from him by the end of the weekend.

[rotarr]

Let's hope nothing happened to him...

He seemed quite active, although losing his Pretender may have caused him to lose interest in the game altogether?

[attackdrone]

Is his capital still under siege? Last time my scouts wandered by it was. Also, did he ever send in a turn the last few rounds, or did the game time out and skip him?

Edit: He was Bandar Log, with the awake White Bull, if I recall correctly. Well cwkjc, if you're reading this I'll share a tip that I found from playing single player as Bandar Log with an awake Nature bless White Bull. Elephants work just as well for initial independent (and often vs player) expansion, and do not tie design points in an awake pretender. Also, the White Bull badly needs to research Alteration to cast Personal Regeneration to be survivable, but a single arrow will enrage him, interrupting his casting.

[cwkjc]

So sorry, i've played my turn, i didn't find time to connect this week end....

The white bull was a try, i've played bandar log in my first mp and had a lot of problem with my rainbow to expand, i'm not sure that's a good option but it was funny, and i wanted a good expansion at the beginning, it's ok i think for the first turns with good scales it's very comfortable, maybe my mistake was to build a fort in a strange location the chokepoint with ctis should have been better.

Invasion of Ctis at the beggining of the game with my strong dominion could have been more aggressive.

I'm always searching a good way to play this nation

[Sephorin]

I will be out of town for a few days. I should have internet access, so my turns should proceed normally, if a bit slowly.

[attackdrone]

Rotarr-

Does discovering a sneaking scout cancel movement due to the resulting battle? If so, then I apologize - the scout was sneaking, not attempting to stall you, and I'll resubmit the upcoming turn to move my scouts through a different path.

[rotarr]

I don't think it should, but I'm not 100% sure there. I didn't move all of my armies last turn so it could be that your scout was on one of those provinces. I'll have a look at the turn when I come home.

[rotarr]

The scout was discovered by a non-moving army, so no harm done :)

I think you can stall by ordering him to attack though, I suppose that would be considered an unethical stalling move.

[attackdrone]

Yeah, I think it works out that about 50% of the time, an attacking scout (or any army) interrupts movement in the province it attacks, if it attacks out of a province owned by its own nation. Most likely, being discovered while scouting does not have this effect.

[Sephorin]

Hi, Valerius. If possible, could I get a 12 hour extension on the current turn? Thanks!

Sephorin

[Valerius]

Sure; 12 hours have been added to the clock.

[Sephorin]

Thanks. Sorry for the delay, everyone. My turn is now in.

Sephorin

[Sephorin]

Valerius,

I don't really know how this works, but you may not be aware that Vanheim has been eliminated. Does that nation need to be taken off of the Llamaserver list so that we are not waiting for him to submit his turn before the server hosts?

[Valerius]

It's somewhat counter-intuitive but after a nation is eliminated the server will still wait for their turn one more time. After the next hosting they will no longer be on the list of nations, regardless of whether they sent in a final turn or not.

Martin, if you have a chance to send in your turn that will likely speed up hosting. Also, well played fighting all the way to the end!

[Sephorin]

Thanks, Valerius. And let me add my thanks to Martin for sticking it out. I know that's not the easiest thing to do.

[MartinTrouman]

Thanks for the game... It's not realy a lot of work sending in the last turns.

I did enjoy the part up to the moment where I was overrun by Pangaea. I good learning experience.. and I might even join the next available noob game. Think I have to put more emphasis on research and set up i defendable chockepoints.

See you around,
Martin

[Nightfall]

Has anyone heard anything from cwkjc?

If all he has left is a single fort under siege, he may have intended but forgotten to go AI.

[rotarr]

Since the major action is happening along my border with him I can safely say that Bandar Log is still putting up some stiff resistance.

Actually I'm quite amazed that no one has gone AI yet, it does make the game more enjoyable IMO.

[Valerius]

Actually I'm quite amazed that no one has gone AI yet, it does make the game more enjoyable IMO.

Yeah, you all have done really well.

As far as Bandar goes, he doesn't have any stales so he's continuing to fight (and rotarr's comments confirm that). OTOH, we are getting close to hosting time so Nightfall may also be right that Bandar is finished.

From what I can tell from the graphs Bandar still has some forces left that could be used to make a final stand. If we don't see his turn in the next few hours I'll send it to myself and either set them AI or put together a final defense of their last fort (if there's no objections to me doing so).

[Groundworm]

Bandar has been putting up extremely effective resistance. I have high praise for him for lasting so long against me. That being said, his resistance is all but at an end. If Valerius wants to take over for him or set him AI, I have no objection. I think he has only one (two at most) province(s) left.

[Valerius]

Ok, I just sent in Bandar's turn. He's just got the one province/fort so things are almost done for him. But I think he can still make a last stand so I didn't set him AI yet.

[cwkjc]

Sorry i had hard time at work, i couldn't connect and play my turn, but my last army was standing waiting for the ultimate fight...

Tell me if i can play or if i'm turned AI

[mockingbird]

I regret to inform you all that I unexpectedly will not have internet access for most of this weekend (Oct 23-24, PST). I would like to request a turn extension, please.

[Valerius]

Sorry i had hard time at work, i couldn't connect and play my turn, but my last army was standing waiting for the ultimate fight...

Tell me if i can play or if i'm turned AI

You're welcome to play. If you'd like to do so just PM me your e-mail address and I'll change it back. But after some losses this turn and, even more painful, some troops abandoning due to lack of gold I'd actually say going AI is quite reasonable at this point. There's really not much to do.

I regret to inform you all that I unexpectedly will not have internet access for most of this weekend (Oct 23-24, PST). I would like to request a turn extension, please.

I see you have your current turn in and hosting isn't due until Sunday. But I'll keep an eye on things to make sure you don't stale over the weekend.

[Valerius]

Sorry I held up the game - I thought I'd sent in Bandar's turn. In any case, there's nothing left so I'm setting them AI this turn.

[Valerius]

As per the first post, I've made the final change to hosting interval - to 72 hours (though you're moving quick and I doubt you'll need the extra time for now).

[attackdrone]

Looks like I shall be the next out (Eriu).

Never fear, I shall hurl Shamblers from the sea until somebody comes to root me out (I got a random event causing immigration to a sea province which happened to have a Shambler population in it). I suppose my 5 income will not hold me long, but we shall see! Heck, my Shambler is the arena champion even!

[rotarr]

Ah so that's how you got those guys! I was wondering about that. Too bad they're not particularly strong :p

I enjoyed warring against you; you put up a great fight with those hard to hit thugs until my eagle warriors stepped up in force. I was afraid you'd be using those to raid my home provinces which could have proven quite effective!

[attackdrone]

I would definitely have used them for some raiding, but not enough were geared. I went the wrong blessing I think - should have thrown some Earth in there instead of Water. The lack of reinvigoration meant that I needed to add a Girdle of Might or Amulet of Reinvigoration to the Frost Brand / Vine Shield combination for them to be effective.

To be honest the Thug strategy was an afterthought, when I found that my armies were wholly ineffective against your blessing. Were I to play this game a second time, I would have planned on paratroop thugs from turn one. Armies and provincial defense work fine against a computer opponent but are not enough against a human.

[Nightfall]

I don't know about that, Abysian PD is the only reason I'm still going in this game, I've found it to be _very_ _very_ cost effective when backed up by a couple of mages.

My only complaint with it is that the damn PD salamanders don't ever seem to cast pheonix power first turn, which would _greatly_ increase the spell selection they have. :doh:

But yeah I agree that a lot of other nation's PD don't seem to be worth much.

[Groundworm]

About 3 hours left to go before the turn cycles, and Pangaea hasn't submitted his turn. He's in danger of a stale. Should we extend the turn?

[Valerius]

Sure, I've extended hosting by 12 hours. Good catch!

[Groundworm]

Thanks, Valerius. It looks like he made if after all. :)

[Valerius]

C'tis needs some more time for this turn so I've postponed hosting for 24 hours.

This has been a quiet thread recently but from what I can see you've got a close game here, with none of the five remaining nations out of the running.

Also, when I was postponing hosting I noticed the only stale was Mictlan's last turn (but he's back this turn). If anyone needs more time, especially over holidays, please don't hesitate to ask.

[Nightfall]

Since I've been at war with Pythium the entire game basically and we are both still hammering away at each other, which from what I understand is pretty rare, I've actually been considering writing up the game from my side turn by turn as an AAR with screenshots...

Does anyone know of a good place to do so...

[Sephorin]

Hey, Nightfall, that would be snazzy! I would even pay $1 to read such an AAR. ($2 if there are really good pictures.)

[Valerius]

Nightfall, I'd be interested in an AAR as well! 1 vs. 1 wars going all game are somewhat unusual but even more so are situations where both parties are still in contention this late in the game. Usually these kind of wars (though they can be quite fun) end up draining the strength of the combatants while other nations leap ahead.

While this is technically the MP & AAR subforum, I'm sure you've noticed not many AARs actually get posted. I'm not sure how well the forum software handles formatting, but in any case the character limit per post and the fact that you can only edit the first post in a thread would probably make it frustrating for posting a detailed AAR. Not sure what a good place would be, though. Maybe the Dom3mods or Something Awful forums (though I understand the latter requires a membership fee)?

[rotarr]

Yeah, for the SA forums you need to pay $10 for a lifetime membership (excluding archives). It seems there's a large Dom3 following with a bunch of excellent AAR's already. I'm sure you'll get a lot of attention and some good feedback over there.

[Nightfall]

Hey all, I'm away between the 23rd and 1st, and may not be able to send in turns, does anyone mind if we delay for a while over the holidays?

By the way, I've started writing up my turns as an AAR in word format, I think I'll upload them to a host and link to them from a post in this forum when I'm ready.

[Valerius]

Hey all, I'm away between the 23rd and 1st, and may not be able to send in turns, does anyone mind if we delay for a while over the holidays?

It's certainly customary to delay hosting as needed at this time of year. The next hosting is scheduled for 6:05 GMT Wed. Nightfall, do you think you'll be able to send in one more turn before you leave?

By the way, I've started writing up my turns as an AAR in word format, I think I'll upload them to a host and link to them from a post in this forum when I'm ready.

Looking forward to it! :)

[Nightfall]

It's certainly customary to delay hosting as needed at this time of year. The next hosting is scheduled for 6:05 GMT Wed. Nightfall, do you think you'll be able to send in one more turn before you leave?


Yeah, that should be okay.

[Valerius]

Nightfall's turn is in but since he won't be back until the 1st there's no need to rush this turn (which is currently set to host in the middle of this holiday weekend). So I've postponed hosting 3 days. The hosting after this will be postponed until the 2nd.

[Valerius]

I noticed Pan's turn was missing so I've postponed hosting by 24 hours.

[Sephorin]

Thanks for keeping an eye out for me, Valerius. I got it in just under the wire. That deadline really snuck up on me this time. :)

I noticed Pan's turn was missing so I've postponed hosting by 24 hours.

[rotarr]

I think we need a rollback. For the second time in a row I'm getting back a "FirstBlood: Dominions error on hosting" message from the Llamaserver...

[Valerius]

I meant to ask about this. :doh: I received a message that Dominions crashed on hosting last turn and this turn but according to the server there were no stales. Is everyone getting stales or just rotarr? And I assume they are actual stales not just a message saying so?

[llamabeast]

Hello! So, I have noticed that dominions failed to host this game twice in the last few days (each time it paralyses the server for quite a long time before I have to manually stop hosting). So what have you all experienced? Has it been like:

- Sent in a 2h file, got an e-mail saying hosting had failed, got a new turn file in which you'd staled
- Carried on regardless, sent in another 2h file for the next turn, same thing happened?

Just to be clear, have you rolled back at all?

Sorry about this - it's a bug in dominions, but it's pretty annoying when it happens. I will try to take a look tonight and see if anything can be done.

[rotarr]

- Sent in a 2h file, got an e-mail saying hosting had failed, got a new turn file in which you'd staled
- Carried on regardless, sent in another 2h file for the next turn, same thing happened?


This is exactly what happened to me. We didn't do any roll backs yet.

I believe the others also may have staled (at least the first time, didn't check out the latest turn) since I (or rather my scouts) didn't see any other player's battles or movements either.

[Nightfall]

Exactly the same here...

[Sephorin]

Yes, essentially the game has not hosted for two turns now. It's like the server did not receive any of our files. I sent in a fresh 2h each time and received a normal reply from the server.

[llamabeast]

Okay, the server is actually working as designed. It goes through this process:

- Try to host the game as normal
- If hosting fails (dom3 crashes or takes infinite time), try removing all the players' 2h files, and try again.

The reason being that sometimes the game will crash as a result of an action by players, e.g. a battle which causes some glitch. I expect that someone's orders would indeed lead to such a battle, and they've given roughly the same orders twice in a row so that the issue has recurred.

The trouble is that it's hard to guess what might cause the crash, unless it's something obviously demanding like a battle involving many thousands of troops. Is anyone trying to do a battle involving thousands of troops? I will try to look into this tonight.

[Sephorin]

I personally am not trying to initiate any big battles... but I DO have a rather large number of Maenads hanging about. Those girls are tough to keep fed anyway, so I wouldn't mind getting rid of a few. ;)

[Valerius]

Thanks for looking into this, llamabeast. I'll add that we definitely haven't had any rollbacks recently and, looking through the thread, I actually don't think we've had any all game.

[Sephorin]

Thanks for looking into this, llamabeast. I'll add that we definitely haven't had any rollbacks recently and, looking through the thread, I actually don't think we've had any all game.

Right, we definitely have not had any rollbacks in this game.

[llamabeast]

Okay, I've found the problem. It's caused by a battle happening in province 70 which, probably not coincidentally, is where Pangaea is massing ridiculous numbers of maeneads.

So here's the plan:
- Carry on the game as normal from here (I'd kind of like to roll back, but will take heed of the thread in the main forum and not do it!)
- Pangaea - I'm afraid you'll have to refrain from massing so many maeneads in one place. Sorry about that!

I will forward the game files to Illwinter, so hopefully this can be fixed in a future patch.

[Groundworm]

Ahh, yes. Province 70. I'm quite certain I have something to do with that.

It's a victory, of a sort. If I can't take down Pangaea, I'll take down all of Dominions. :)

[Sephorin]

Ahh, yes. Province 70. I'm quite certain I have something to do with that.

It's a victory, of a sort. If I can't take down Pangaea, I'll take down all of Dominions. :)

Aha! What a dastardly plan!

Actually, I'll be happy to see a few maenads die in glorious battle. It's either that, or they all starve because of these crash/stale problems.

I would definitely be in favor of a rollback since disease is now spreading rampant through my ranks.

Exactly how many maenads is it okay to put in one province? And I have to count them all? Yipes! What a bookkeeping nightmare. I guess I'll have to break out the excel spreadsheet.

Thank you very much for looking into this, Llamabeast.

[llamabeast]

Yeah, I'm afraid a rollback isn't really an option. See the thread "Turn rollback ramifications" in the main forum.

I would limit your number of maenads in a province at say 1000-2000. :o

Edit: I made those numbers up by the way - I actually have no idea.

[Sephorin]

Yeah, I'm afraid a rollback isn't really an option. See the thread "Turn rollback ramifications" in the main forum.

I would limit your number of maenads in a province at say 1000-2000. :o



Yipes. So how should we handle this Valerius? Do I need to pull my troops out of a key province so that C'tis can take it? Or should C'tis not be allowed to attack since that is what is causing the crash?

I'm not quite sure how this is going to work anyway. I mean, if I pull out of province 70 this turn, we're simply going to run into the same problem next turn when C'tis attacks again. If we don't allow C'tis to attack, then how is he going to survive? :(

[Valerius]

First off, thanks for tracking down the problem, llama!

As far as rollbacks go, I realize they can cause problems but as you pointed out these are due to human error not the server being unable to handle them. I've never had them cause a problem. I think this group is savvy enough to to manage it. Of course someone may object on other grounds (such as having received an excellent random event).

Regardless of whether we rollback, we need to figure out how to get some of Pan's troops out of 70. Assuming Pan controls one or more neighboring provinces he could move troops out and C'tis could still attack. Unless C'tis launched his attack in the magic phase by teleporting in, in which case in which he'd have to either not launch his attack or only attack during the normal movement phase (I'm assuming Pan can't gateway large numbers of troops out of that province).

[Gaslov]

Will there be another one? I am looking to play my first multiplayer game. You mention most games use CBM 1.6 and EDM 1.1. What is CBM 1.71?

[Valerius]

Hi, Gaslov. Welcome to the community!

I'm not planning on starting another game in the near future but Calahan runs many newbie games and recently posted (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=46969) about some new games he is starting. He is an excellent admin and I'd recommend joining one of his games.

CBM 1.71 is the latest version of the CBM mod. When the First Blood game began CBM 1.7 hadn't yet been released so it isn't mentioned in my game description. It made some significant changes and some players prefer 1.6. I haven't really been following the settings used for new games recently but my guess would be that most now use CBM 1.7. Btw, CBM 1.7+ now incorporates the EDM mod.

[Valerius]

I've postponed hosting by 24 hours while we discuss how to proceed.

[Sephorin]

I've postponed hosting by 24 hours while we discuss how to proceed.

Thanks, Valerius. I would definitely be in favor of a rollback.

I'm still not sure how/if this whole thing is going to work out. I guess I'll proceed with removing most of my Maenads from 70, and then we can see what happens.

[Nightfall]

I don't mind either way, a lot of my orders default and work fine on a stale turn (lots of Blood Hunt and Blood Sacrifice), so if anything the stales advantage me.

[Groundworm]

I don't mind either way- rollback or no. This attack I was launching is pretty much a last-ditch effort for me. That being said, I was quite interested in seeing how it was going to work out. These crashes preventing me from seeing heaps of maenad corpses is somewhat disappointing.

[llamabeast]

In Pangaea's turn that I spied on, huge numbers of maenads were being moved in from lots of neighbouring provinces I believe. I think simply moving in fewer of these would be the way forward.

You know what, I can try this out at home. Unfortunately I will not have a chance until tomorrow, but then I can just try slightly reducing the number of maenads Pangaea brings in and try hosting again, until it works. Then I can roll back and rehost, using a modified version of Pangaea's turn. Pangaea will just have to consider the reduced Maenad count as an unfortunate random event.

[Nightfall]

That sounds like an excellent way to precede llamabeast, thank you very much for taking the time.

[llamabeast]

Ugh. Okay I had a look at it tonight after all. It seems harder than I expected to solve.

Firstly, it's nothing to do with the number of units in province 70, and I was wrong about Pangaea moving lots of units in. Sorry Pangaea!

It has something to do with manikins, and the problem is always caused in that battle. I haven't been able to have any reasonable approximation to the current battle without causing the crash. On one test when C'tis left some troops behind, and Pangaea evacuated, then it worked - but when I tried something similar later it didn't work.

So it's all very mysterious. It's a great pity because it looks like it would be an awesome battle! C'tis has obviously been building up to it for a good while.

EDIT: Okay, I did the best I could - made C'tis attack a different province. I then tested a following turn in which C'tis attacked a province with an enormous number of Maenads in it, and it was just fine. So *perhaps* this was some freaky one-off thing.

C'tis: Sorry for attacking a different province, I hope it wasn't crucial.

Everyone: What I've done is rolled back, changed C'tis' turn, and then forced hosting. We will try continuing from here. BEFORE TAKING YOUR TURN YOU MUST DELETE ANY 2h FILES. Otherwise there is a danger of dominions getting all confused, as can happen sometimes when rollbacks are done.

[Sephorin]

Groundworm, I'm perfectly willing to do some sort of battle set up for 70 that you think would be fair since this kind of screwed up your plans. Let me know what you think would work.

I'm very relieved that this doesn't seem to have been the result of my maenad hordes. Phew. :cold:

I'm thinking, though, that Haunted Forest might be involved somehow.

[Valerius]

Thanks very much for your efforts in troubleshooting this, llamabeast.

Everyone please note llamabeast's instructions regarding how to proceed:

Everyone: What I've done is rolled back, changed C'tis' turn, and then forced hosting. We will try continuing from here. BEFORE TAKING YOUR TURN YOU MUST DELETE ANY 2h FILES. Otherwise there is a danger of dominions getting all confused, as can happen sometimes when rollbacks are done.

And in case anyone isn't following the thread I'll also pester everyone with a message from the server. ;)

[Groundworm]

First off, let me add my voice of thanks to the others, llamabeast. Your personal attention into a game that you had no prior involvement in is greatly appreciated.

That being said, this new turn is an absolute disaster for me. I had somewhat drastically changed my scripted orders in the turn immediately prior to that battle to include key spells. Since the turns I submitted never actually took place due to the repeated stales, my new orders were never submitted. This resulted in drastic casualties amongst my forces that were largely preventable. Furthermore, I specifically chose province 70 because it had the largest concentration of Pangaea's forces. If I had wanted to attack a lesser force, I would have changed orders and force composition, and (most importantly) spent fewer gems.

In sum: as it stands, the battle I just fought cost me far too many troops and mages, spent far too many of my limited gems, and gained me far too little.

If we want to continue because further troubleshooting of this issue is too troublesome, I will understand and make the best of what I have left. But while the current solution solves the crashing problem, it leaves me much worse off.

[Sephorin]

I would support whatever Groundworm wants to do to fix this, including additional roll backs or sending gold or gems. Let me know if you have any ideas, Groundworm.

[llamabeast]

Hmm, well I believe that all of Groundworm's orders were maintained - all I did was change the province the army moved to. Or perhaps you mean that you gave the orders on the turn *before*, but didn't repeat them this turn?

Anyway I spent an hour and a half last night trying to find some set of orders which didn't break the game (starting at my bed time so it was a late one). Obviously the outcome is horribly unfair for C'tis, but I really don't know what to suggest. This kind of event is pretty rare - not had a crash like this for months, among all the games running - but given that it's happened I'm not sure a fair solution can be found.

On the plus side Groundworm, the province you attacked has a lab so you should be able to replenish your mages' gem stocks.

[llamabeast]

If we want to continue because further troubleshooting of this issue is too troublesome, I will understand and make the best of what I have left. But while the current solution solves the crashing problem, it leaves me much worse off.

Yeah, to be honest I don't really have time for further troubleshooting. Again, I'm sorry. Not that it's my fault, but it's a real bummer when technical problems mess the "fairness" of a game up - particularly a newbie game!

I would support whatever Groundworm wants to do to fix this, including additional roll backs or sending gold or gems. Let me know if you have any ideas, Groundworm.

Maybe sending a few gems would be a reasonable way to resolve this.

Whatever, I highly suggest continuing with the next turn ASAP so the game doesn't lose momentum.

[Groundworm]

I had scripted my orders differently in the turns that crashed, so the orders never actually got put into place (I actually put the new orders in three different times- two for each of the crashed/staled turns, and once for the turn that didn't get processed on account of the rollback).

The difference in orders was, among other things, I scripted my fairy queen to cast fog warriors, which would have protected my troops from my own rain of stones- which was far more devastating than anything Pangaea did to me in that fight.

It doesn't matter. I was an unfortunate victim of circumstance. At least it happened to me in a game where I'm already losing, rather than one of the games I still have a chance in. We should carry on, there's nothing to be done here.

Again, llamabeast, thanks for your time and your help.

[Nightfall]

Are you sure that the cast orders were incorrect...

It's possible that one or more of your mages just decided to go off script, that has burned me bad twice so far this game.

[Valerius]

It doesn't matter. I was an unfortunate victim of circumstance. At least it happened to me in a game where I'm already losing, rather than one of the games I still have a chance in. We should carry on, there's nothing to be done here.

Thanks for your understanding. It's just bad luck, but like you say at least it's in a game where things were already going badly (btw, nice job fighting it out until the end).

Ok everyone, let's proceed with the game. Don't forget to follow llamabeast's instructions about deleting your old .2h files and please ask if you have any questions. I'm going to add 24 hours to the hosting time so you have a full 72 hours from now to work on your turns.

[rotarr]

I'm afraid our favorite Maeneads have caused another Llamaserver crash?

Maybe we need to abandon this game? :(

[llamabeast]

Oh poo. :(

I think it's caused by Haunted Forest. No idea how to fix it though. I even considered getting Pangaea's caster to commit suicide, but I'm not sure how to do it.

I wonder whether someone could do a dispel. Maybe I can take a look to see if anyone has enough gems and try that, and get everyone else to send that player gems.

Obviously this is pretty unfair on Pangaea though, who presumably had Haunted Forest as a big part of his strategy.

The good news is, if I didn't mention it before, I sent the files to Johan K (the programming half of Illwinter) and he's taken a look, so most probably this bug will be fixed in the next patch. It's never come up before though - I guess either Haunted Forest is rarely cast (unlikely) os some other issue is interacting with it to cause problems.

[llamabeast]

If you guys are keen to carry on with the game and Pangaea can handle the unfairness of a dispel, I'll mess around with it and get that done. But if you're disheartened anyway and would rather just start new games, I'll not bother. Let me know.

[Sephorin]

If you guys are keen to carry on with the game and Pangaea can handle the unfairness of a dispel, I'll mess around with it and get that done. But if you're disheartened anyway and would rather just start new games, I'll not bother. Let me know.

I would vote for throwing in the towel at this point. There are just too many things that have gotten messed up. Also realize that we are causing other players grief by continuing to mess up the server.

If everyone else really wants to continue, though, I would be willing.

[Groundworm]

I've no issue with abandoning the game, since C'tis was a sinking ship anyway.

[Valerius]

It's unfortunate to have to end this way but unless one of the possible solutions llamabeast mentions to remove Haunted Forest succeeds there doesn't seem to be any choice. Of course even if those solutions succeed they won't necessarily be fair. But before we call the game I'd like to hear from Nightfall and mockingbird as well.

[mockingbird]

I have no problem with ending the game myself; at this point I was just fighting as hard as I could on principle, but I had already lost the war.

Congratulations to Nightfall on an excellent war and well deserved victory; I made many, many mistakes (one of which was not rushing Abysia right off the bat :) ) and Nightfall played very well.

[Nightfall]

Have had a ball with this game, so first of all thanks to everyone...

It is a bit of pity as it was looking like an interesting battle for the end, however the game seems to be tipping towards the point where micro is becoming more of a chore, espescially I think for Sephorin.

As Groundworm and mockingbird have already confirmed they are both more or less just being cleaned up at this point.

Considering all that along with the server problems, I am happy to call the game now as a three way tie, which I think is a better conclusion than just abandoning it.

[Nightfall]

By the way mockingbird,

I had spammed about 10 horror seeds on your capital 10-15 turns ago, was wondering whether you had noticed any effects?

[Nightfall]

Congratulations to Nightfall on an excellent war and well deserved victory; I made many, many mistakes (one of which was not rushing Abysia right off the bat :) ) and Nightfall played very well.

You came very, very close to beating me twice, and more than held your own defensively. The turning point for me I think was scouting and then securing the blood rock, as that site was huge for me.

More than anything else in this game you have managed to instill in me an absolute hatred of mind hunts... ;)

So much so that I do not think I will ever be able to bring myself to play a nation without astral access.

[mockingbird]

By the way mockingbird,

I had spammed about 10 horror seeds on your capital 10-15 turns ago, was wondering whether you had noticed any effects?

No, not a thing. Are they dependent on MR? Because that might explain it.

[rotarr]

I'm content with calling it quits as well, although the micro in this game is still manageable for me so I can continue if the others want to. Had a blast playing it as my first Dom3 MP game ever. I also made many mistakes on the tactical part, but luckily for me Sephorin agreed on the mutually beneficial agreement between Pangaea and Mictlan ;)

[Valerius]

Based on the feedback I'm going to end the game. It's unfortunate we couldn't have it decided on the field of battle but hopefully the files llama sent Illwinter will help in fixing whatever bug caused the problem. It was just bad luck but this type of situation isn't at all common (this is the first game I've been involved with that had a game ending bug).

I also like Nightfall's idea of declaring it a three way tie. Btw Nightfall, as someone who usually plays non-astral glamour nations I share your hatred of mind hunts. When I get unlucky and don't find any indie S mages I know it's going to be painful. :p

So it looks like it would have ended up with three nations contending for the win, meaning one would have likely been the odd man out and after they were eliminated the final two would fight it out for the win. Rotarr, you were the leader in provinces I think for most of the game so you would have been a logical target. OTOH, it looks like you had a good relationship with Sephorin's Pan so perhaps Nightfall's Abysia would have been targeted. Sephorin seems to have had the best diplomatic options, being able to choose which side to ally with.

Thanks everyone for playing. You're a good group and I'm glad it seemed to have been a fun experience.

[rotarr]

Although I did have the most provinces, about a third were useless water provinces. IMO Sephorin would be the strongest player left at this point because of his globals and lack of strong opposition all game (not to mention his 115609 Maeneads). I also have ample access to astral magic so maybe I could've convinced Nightfall to attack Sephorin instead of me ;) Still I'm grateful for Sephorin's assistance in the beginning of the game when I was battling it out with both Vanheim and Eriu, I wouldn't have survived that otherwise!

Valerius, thank you again for starting and managing my first Dom3 multiplayer game. Although I'm getting a bit burned out on Dominions right now, I really enjoyed it quite a lot.

[Sephorin]

Thank you very much, Valerius, for hosting. Thank you to everyone who played. This was my first multi-player game, and it was certainly a lot of fun. Though, I may have to think twice before pursuing the Haunted Forest plus 50,000 Maenads strategy again. :p

[Groundworm]

I will add my voice of thanks to Valerius for being an excellent and encouraging host.

I also enjoyed playing with all of you. Sephorin, in particular- you made an excellent ally in the beginning of the game and an honorable opponent in the end.

Hope to see you all in future games.