GotM: Gardens of the Moon, Game Over: WL wins.

[WraithLord]

Hi,

Game name is a tribute to great work of art by same name. Hopefully this game would reflect the epic nature of the book.

This game is targeted for veteran players but this is not strict condition - it's mainly that the game is not meant for fresh green newbs.
What's most important is to honor the warrior spirit of this game. No turning AI after a few defeats please. Try to fight as best you can for as long as you can. If RL prevents you from playing please contact the admin to find a sub
I'm gonna recruit/open it for both forums but to keep my sanity I'll manage it only here.

I aim to start the game with about 8-23 nations.
CBM+EDM latest versions will be used.


The following are the settings I had in mind. The ones I don't plan to change are in bold font:
Map: According to players number/wish/vote.
Hosting Pace: First 15 turns every 24h, turns 15-30 48h, turn 30-45 72h, turn 45-60 96h, turn > 61 120h.
Hosting is planned for busy ppl!
Disallowed exploits: copying Bogus' orders and overfilling enemy lab to prevent his own forge.
Killing own mages under Ankh or LaD to gain freebe mages and troops.
It's ok in a battle but it's not ok to set it up on purpose (whoever likes to do it knows what I'm talking about)
Probing armies with scouts/commanders must be done in such a way so as not to block movement.
Victory condition: 9 VPs. As in 60% of # players (15) capital VPs. Each capital is considered to be one VP. The capitals will not be marked. The first player to have control of all the VPs required for victory and to hold them for three turns straight will be declared winner. The winner is required to save his last turns for verification.
Nations: All MA
Hosted on llamaserver.
Diplomacy allowed.
NAP's are not considered binding.
(I for one have no intention of breaking my NAPs but every player is free to act as he will in this regard)
Mods: CBM 1.6 + EDM
Graphs: on
HoF: 15
Indies: 9
Map: AsiaTwist
# of players: 16
Research: Normal
Magic sites: Normal




road-map:
recruit: now. At this point the game is open for both sign-up and
discussion. I est. this will take a week or two.
Prepare pretenders: After all players sign-up we shall wait a week for pretender creation.
Game on: we start the game.

Players:
1. WraithLord, Ermor
2. Aethyr, Shinuyama
3. Executor, Jotun
4. Dark Kitty, Caelum
5. ghoul31, Oceania, defeated on turn 34
6. legolasjrt, Pangaea, defeated on turn 28
7. Aristander, Arco
8. Ossa, TC
9. Hadrian_II, Rlyeh
10. BigandScary, Man, defeated on turn 34
11. LoloMo, Ulm
12. Slobby, Agartha, defeated on turn 42
13. Tryfan, Van
14. Herode, Pythium
15. Hoplosternum, Mictlan
16. Stagger Lee, Marignon

# VPs owned (list only nations with more than 1):

Jotun: 3
Rlyeh: 2
Pythium: 2
Ermor: 2

[Aethyr]

Hi WL, I'd like to play as Shinuyama.

[WraithLord]

I want to emphesize that me playing Ashdod is open to discussion and shall be decided by the will of the majority.

I'm just curios about the nation and since I rarely play SP, MP experience pretty much sums up my entire experience. No big deal If I don't get to play it either, MA ermor is fine for me since I never played it as well.

[Executor]

"Killing own mages under Ankh or LaD to gain freebe mages and troops."
Does that include killing priests with LAD to create undead summoners?
-with or without the ankh either?

Reserve a spot for me please, my nation of choice is Jotun.

Personally I don't mind Ashdod, doe I suggest you take Ermor, much less likely you'll get ganged from the start, and I think it's like a 98,4% chance to be attacked by everyone by being Ashdod, I certainly will if I start next to you.

[WraithLord]

"Does that include killing priests with LAD to create undead summoners? "
Yes

"-with or without the ankh either?" either


"
Personally I don't mind Ashdod, doe I suggest you take Ermor, much less likely you'll get ganged from the start, and I think it's like a 98,4% chance to be attacked by everyone by being Ashdod, I certainly will if I start next to you.
"
Hehe. how did you get to exactly 98.4%? ;)
Anyway, I'll take Ermor.

[Dark Kitty]

I would like to join as Caelum please

[ghoul31]

Oceania

[WraithLord]

ghoul31, taking a water nation is ok so long as at least one more UW nation would join. Otherwise I think it would unbalance the game. Perhaps you want to make a 2nd pick just in case we end up short on water nations.

[legolasjrt]

I taker pangea xd

[WraithLord]

Pardom me askin legolasjrt, but could you please tell what is the extent of your MP experience?- No need for detailed report just in general lines.

The reason I'm asking is that I aim for a more or less homogeneous experience level and if not that then at least not to have extreme difference of exp. levels (what would unbalance the game).

[legolasjrt]

MMM. i play 20-25 mp games. at the moment I am in 5 games and positioned very well in the same. Only that in a Spanish forum

http://www.puntadelanza.net/Foro/phpBB3/viewforum.php?f=56

[WraithLord]

Oh. ud. es (o habla) espanol?- mucho gusto y bien venido.

[Amhazair]

Oh. ud. es (o habla) espanol?- mucho gusto y bien venido.Su profil revela que su locacion es en Caracas. Siempre interesante de ver aparecer jugadores experimentados de otras partes/otros foros para rejuvenar nuestros rangos. (Quien se acuerda de la emergencia de Xietor por ejemplo?)

And for the English speakers la même chose of course.

[Aristander]

I would like to join. Arcoscephale please.

[legolasjrt]

thanks, I hope to enjoy the game

[Pjoo]

Seems extremely interesting, sadly I am fresh-ish green newb, atleast when it comes to PvP :/

Only PvP I have done is basically shoot my friend's commanders with Seeking Arrow from a safe distance ^^ I could replace someone though if the person loses intrest due to armies getting destroyed or similar, uphill battle is always more fun!

[Ossa]

I'd like to join with TC

[WraithLord]

ghoul31, taking a water nation is ok so long as at least one more UW nation would join. Otherwise I think it would unbalance the game. Perhaps you want to make a 2nd pick just in case we end up short on water nations.
Kind reminder -> ghoul31

All: we have enough players to start the game. I'll wait until next Wednesday for more players if any and then I'm closing the game and moving forward to map selection, pretender creation and launching the game.

We have a nice selection of nations so should be a good game.

[WraithLord]

Seems extremely interesting, sadly I am fresh-ish green newb, atleast when it comes to PvP :/

Only PvP I have done is basically shoot my friend's commanders with Seeking Arrow from a safe distance ^^ I could replace someone though if the person loses intrest due to armies getting destroyed or similar, uphill battle is always more fun!

There are plenty pf newb games here or subs needed for interesting mid-late game positions. You should try some to get both fun & experience.

[Hadrian_II]

R'lyeh please

[Ferrosol]

Vanheim Please.

Cancel that I just noticed the insane Indy settings.

[WraithLord]

hardest indies. so what?- Check with ppl who played with these settings in my previous games. Most had fun, including perhaps those who didn't adapt their strat. to the settings.
Notice that research is normal so that mage centric nations could utilize spells early on.
Actually Van is the kind of nation that benefits from the hard indies.

[arnob]

Hello

If ok for a new MP player (third game), I'll be happy to play with Agartha - Golem Cult

Arnob

[BigandScary]

I would like to play as Man.

[Slobby]

:D I'm a glutton for punishment hook me up with Agartha!

[WraithLord]

Hello

If ok for a new MP player (third game), I'll be happy to play with Agartha - Golem Cult

Arnob
I'm sorry arnob, I don't think that would work. For the sake of clarity let's say that the experience bar for this game is at least 10 MP games. You see, any vet who starts next to you would almost certainly attack you ASAP thus gaining an unfair advantage. You won't enjoy that and it would upset the game balance.

@BigandScary, do you meet this "not complete newb" criteria?

@Slobby, prepare to feel the pain :)

[arnob]

Hello

If ok for a new MP player (third game), I'll be happy to play with Agartha - Golem Cult

Arnob
I'm sorry arnob, I don't think that would work. For the sake of clarity let's say that the experience bar for this game is at least 10 MP games. You see, any vet who starts next to you would almost certainly attack you ASAP thus gaining an unfair advantage. You won't enjoy that and it would upset the game balance.



It's a little rude but I understand your point.

I have a little question, the fact to put indy strengh to 9, isn't a big advantage for ermor ? More indy => More deads => More undeads ?

Arnob

[WraithLord]

Oh, I'm sorry if it came out rude, that wasn't my intention and it's not always a pleasant job aiming for a game that would be balanced. I mean, if I were looking for unfair advantage I'd just open up the game to all and cheer for every unexperienced players that starts next to me.

re. your Q abut Ermor. There's a grain of truth to it but:
a- indie 9. has broader impact on the game and
b- I don't think this will give such a big advantage to Ermor to be able to recruit more chaff. That chaff would be useless against bless nations, early SCs etc. And
c- in early game research & expansion are more important than reanimating soulless.
Last,
d- Ermor can recruit the longdeads as much as it wants regardless of indie. setting.

really last point, you can all see I put indie setting as mutable. If you like we can vote on it.

[Executor]

Keep the indies at 9, that way us fast developers win the game!

Uh, and I suggest magic sites at 45 or more.
And I presume the capitals won't be marked right?

[WraithLord]

"Keep the indies at 9, that way us fast developers win the game!"
indies 9, +2

"Uh, and I suggest magic sites at 45 or more."
Isn't 45 the normal for MA?

"And I presume the capitals won't be marked right? "
Capitals would be VPs so I don't see how not to mark them. Any idea?


@All. re. the vets condition. Do you think I'm being too strict?- I mean, back in dom-I days when I started playing I jumped right into the water with all the sharks and nobody told me "back-off you newb"...
Any opinions?

[Pjoo]

"Uh, and I suggest magic sites at 45 or more."
Isn't 45 the normal for MA?

45EA, 40MA, 35LA afaik

@All. re. the vets condition. Do you think I'm being too strict?- I mean, back in dom-I days when I started playing I jumped right into the water with all the sharks and nobody told me "back-off you newb"...
Any opinions?

Well, if you want to keep the game balanced and competive, it's good idea for players to have ~the same level of skill, but given the nature of the game, people usually ganging up on the strongest player, few newbs getting eaten wouldn't exactly break the game? Well, actually, given indie strenght 9 it could, but...

About the marking of capitals, you could always just bash peoples' heads the standard way until someone captures all the required VPs and declares themselves the winner(doubt there will be much cheating like that). You couldn't track it in the score graph, even if you wanted that, though.

[Hadrian_II]

About the marking of capitals, you could always just bash peoples' heads the standard way until someone captures all the required VPs and declares themselves the winner(doubt there will be much cheating like that). You couldn't track it in the score graph, even if you wanted that, though.

You can track your VP count at a temple, as every vp gives you 5 "temple points"

[Executor]

Well, we don't actually have to play with victory points to consider capitals victory points.

I dislike the idea of having my capital marked from turn 1.
We already did a game like this "BEER", where the required amount of capitals was 7, but they were not marked, instead every nation had to keep a personal account of everyone's control of capitals, and watch out so nobody steals the game.

It worked out pretty good.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=39652&highlight=beer

[Calahan]

Well, we don't actually have to play with victory points to consider capitals victory points.

I dislike the idea of having my capital marked from turn 1.
We already did a game like this "BEER", where the required amount of capitals was 7, but they were not marked, instead every nation had to keep a personal account of everyone's control of capitals, and watch out so nobody steals the game.

It worked out pretty good.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=39652&highlight=beer
Quick observer comment

I applied similar settings to the above to a game I ran 18 months ago (CarCrash http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=42834).

The only problem that occurred was when one of the main contenders forgot the winning conditions, which is entirely the fault of the player not the settings. Other than that the game was fine. I've also just started two Newbie games with a "hold X capitals" win requirement, but without having capitals VP marked. So I think it is certainly a valid combination of settings and victory conditions.

And personally (as I've ranted about many times in the past) I think having capitals VP marked not only helps the powerful nations to rush, which is help they certainly don't need, but it also encourages lazy play by having a very important bit of intel given to you for nothing. If you want to know who owns the capitals, you should be both made to find them in-game, and made to expend resources keeping track of who owns them.


And if you want to do fixed starts and still keep capital locations secret, then you need to find someone not playing in the game to sort the map out (not it :)), but then importantly, for that person to only distribute the image file to the players, and NOT the .map file (As the .map file is needed by the llamaserver, but the players only need the image file. As giving out the .map file also gives out the start locations)

[Executor]

Calahan, you've translated my thoughts into words, thanks!

[BigandScary]

@wraithlord

I'm pretty sure that I am not a complete newb. I've been playing for more than three years, and I played DomII before that. I haven't won a non-duel game yet, except as an ally, but I think I qualify as a vet

[WraithLord]

BigandScary, thanks for answering that ever awkward Q. I signed you up :)

All, re. not marking VPs. OK, they will not be marked. Each player will have to keep tabs on how many capitals he controls. Each capital is worth one VP and the first player to control enough to meet the winning condition wins.

re. magic sites, I see no reason not to take the MA default.

Pjoo, given the capital VP conditions, extreme difference in experience levels is even more unbalancing. Perhaps I'll aim for my next game to be open for all and learn from experience how it ends up.

[BigandScary]

No problem. When I leave on my extended sabbaticals people forget I'm here.

[Slobby]

Oh beer, that brings back memories. Fun game.

The honor system on the vps worked fine as well. I'd be all for non marked caps and also no graphs.

Also magic sites at default and not 45.

[Aethyr]

All, re. not marking VPs. OK, they will not be marked. Each player will have to keep tabs on how many capitals he controls. Each capital is worth one VP and the first player to control enough to meet the winning condition wins.


I think we should add that the caps have to held for "x" turns (maybe 3?) before the winning condition is met.

[WraithLord]

Do you mean each VP separately or start countdown once last VP to meet victory condition is taken?- Was this system tried before?

I'm not looking to reinvent the wheel here, rather look for a formula that's known to work.

[WraithLord]

Slobby, can yoy plz explain what you meant by "The honor system on the vps worked fine as well"?

[Aethyr]

WL, the countdown begins once the last VP (meeting the victory condition) has been obtained. It has been used before w/o dfficulty afaik.

Here's one example: http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=44851&highlight=legendary+ordeals

[WraithLord]

ok, first call before I'm finalizing the player's list (On Wednesday).

Aethyr, yes we can do that. I'll update the OP.

[LoloMo]

A vet game without MA Ulm to beat up on? Heaven forbid! Sign me up for MA Ulm please :-)

[WraithLord]

FYI, MA Ulm has even managed to win a vets MP game, in the game called Hydrant.

Welcome aboard :)

[Tryfan]

You want another? I have tons of MP experience with Dom 2 and lots of SP with Dom 3. Oh, and I knew Gandalf before any of these boards existed. :)

Anyways let me know either way.

[Herode]

Hello guys. Looks like some of my games are going to their end. Some room left for a Pythium ruler ? (unless Tryfan wants Pythium of course, let's stay FIFO ;))

[WraithLord]

This game is still recruiting up until Wednesday.

What nation would you like served?

[WraithLord]

Hello guys. Looks like some of my games are going to their end. Some place left for a Pythium ruler ? (unless Tryfan wants Pythium of course, let's stay FIFO ;))

There's always room for the eastern empire, Ermor's own brethren :)

[Tryfan]

This game is still recruiting up until Wednesday.

What nation would you like served?

I'll take Vanheim. In honor of the weather outside here.

[Slobby]

Slobby, can yoy plz explain what you meant by "The honor system on the vps worked fine as well"?

If I recall correctly in Beer you needed X amount of VPs (caps) for Y amount of turns. The check was that once a player got the VPs necessary they would then make back ups of the turns fulfilling the Y requirement.

Then we had those turns sent to someone independant to review.

No issues.

Oh and I'm not listed in the opening post I was serious about playing Agartha in this game! :)

[WraithLord]

OP updated.

2nd call to those sitting on the fence. Tomorrow I'll be closing the players list.

[Hoplosternum]

One of my favourite books :) I'll play as Mictlan if it's still available.

[WraithLord]

cool :)

We're 15 players strong. nice.

Very well, this is the 3rd and last call to anyone who wants to join. Today is the last day open for signup.

Guys, assuming we'll be 15 players what map would you like to play?
And how many VPs?- I suggest anything between 7-9.

[WraithLord]

ok. Map pptions:
- Alexander
- Asia Twist
Both the above may be too big + have too many w. provinces.
- Epotara
- Glory of the gods
- Orania
- Sharivar

I vote for GotG. There's a fixed version for MP games that I used for YARG1. It could serve for this game as well.

[WraithLord]

ok. Map options:
- Alexander
- Asia Twist
Both the above may be too big + have too many w. provinces.
- Epotara
- Glory of the gods
- Orania
- Sharivar

I vote for GotG. There's a fixed version for MP games that I used for YARG1. It could serve for this game as well.

Edit. stupid double post :(

[Stagger Lee]

If I'm not too late, I'd like to try Marignon, please.

[WraithLord]

Not too late. Tomorrow I'll close the list b/c I want to finalize the settings and allow ppl to prepare pretenders.

[Hoplosternum]

I like Epotara as it is a wrap around and NOT Orania. And it's got some caves too :) Not that Orania is bad but its used a lot. Glory of Gods is good but not a wrap map.

I agree there would be too much water with Asia Twist. Alexander is not too bad though for water as at least it's well mixed in with the land.

[WraithLord]

and you vote for?- Epotara?

[Herode]

Considering the fact that we have 14 Land + 2 Water players, Asia Twist looks like the obvious choice for me :
- GotG is faaaaaaaaaaaaar too large and will offer too many water provinces. If you really want a big map, I would favour AomOgre301.
- Epotara has land/water ratio of 292/16 : not enough water
- Alexander is 247/43, too much water
- Asia Twist is 267/37, almost OK.

My vote is for Asia Twist.

[WraithLord]

Ok Herode, you're way too convincing :)

Thus, I change my vote to AT. So now it's AT+2.

I'm not sure what was Hoplosternum's choice so I'll wait for him to clarify.

[Hadrian_II]

Asia Twist for me please

[Slobby]

Asia Twist

[Tryfan]

Yeah gotta go with Asia Twist as well.

What were you thinking for magical site frequency? Because of likely slower expansion thanks to strength 9 indies I wonder if maybe we want to keep it from being excessively high.

[LoloMo]

To make it easier, I vote for Asia Twist also! :)

[Aethyr]

Can't disagree, Asia Twist for me too.

[WraithLord]

Cool, AT it is.

Guys we have our team finalized. Please go ahead to prepare your pretenders.
Next week we start. I'll create the game on llamaserver soon. I trust you all know the drill.

Don't forget, create your pretenders with CBM 1.6 and EDM 1.1!

Now, do we go with 8 or 9 VPs for victory?
I suggest 9.

[WraithLord]

I'll wait some for your feedback.
If I don't hear any objections I'll open up the game with said settings.
I will set normal victory and we will manage the victory condition by way of the winning player declaring here and submitting his last three turns so that we can verify that he controled 9 capitals for 3 turns straight.

[Tryfan]

Let's get er goin sooner rather than later, too.

If there's any special settings someone really wants put up to vote now is the time to mention it. If there isn't anything, we can go with the normal stuff and start as soon as we have all the pretenders in.

[WraithLord]

There's an issue when trying to create the game.
I don't see CBM 1.6 (as is) listed in the mod list. It's there in combination with other mods but not separate.
The server doesn't allow me to UL it b/c it checks for the filename and it's already there (probably part of said combos).

Any ideas how to make it work would be appreciated :)

[WraithLord]

Scratch that :)
GotMI (http://www.llamaserver.net/gameinfo.cgi?game=GotMI)is up and ready for pretenders

Make sure you create them with CBM 1.6 and EDM 1.1!

[Herode]

16 starting capitols, so 9 VPs to control... at least ! And graphs off are my prefered settings.

[edit : ha, too late ^^ ]

[Tryfan]

I kinda like graphs on anyways... easier to tell who to gang up on.

:D

[Aethyr]

I like graphs on. Also, everyone should remember that Asia Twist has all caps marked. ;)

[Tryfan]

Getcher pretenders in guys.

[Tryfan]

Nine people to go...

[Executor]

Zzzzzzzzzzz

[WraithLord]

Yes. Why don't we get them pretenders up and start the game? :)

[WraithLord]

Ahmm I think there's something we may need to pay attention to.

So, the game I created uses EDM 1.1, however when choosing it the server shows the following text:
"Version 1.04

End Game Diversity mod 1.1 (.dm file incorrectly still lists it as 1.04)
"

Now, I assume initial release of 1.1 had this error, but I think it was fixed. I'm not sure whether players that created their pretender with the fixed version (1.1) would be able to play.
I think that even should they get the missing mod error the fix would be simple enough:
Edit diversity.dm, change line from
#version 1.1
to:
#version 1.04

I have little experience with MP games mod ver. mismatches issues. I can only hope things would work smoothly (or ask everyone to make that change to diversity.dm *before* they create the pretender).

[Tryfan]

I know nothing about the mod thing, but on the tardy pretenders thing maybe we should send a private message to those who haven't sent any in and see if that wakes them up.

If it takes them a week to get a pretender in you have to wonder what they will be like in the midgame...

[Executor]

I believe only CBM affect the pretender design so even having wrong versions of the EDM shouldn't be a problem.

Don't take my word for it doe...

[Herode]

@Wraith Lord : when do you plan to start the game ? I think it would be a good idea to give a schedule date if you want to avoid unreasonable gestation delays :p

As far as I am concerned, never played Pythium before ; I have a (hopefully) suitable pretender but I will not disregard 2-3 more days for tuning. Anyway, I can send the existing one fast if needed.

[Tryfan]

The guy who asked for Pangaea and hasn't gotten his god in was the one who disappeared without a word as Midgard in the Gluttony game. Given his history and the fact he has been slow here already, perhaps we might want a replacement 16th person (or go without him).

[Dark Kitty]

Slow down Tryfan :) (and don't stay near the chimney all day, we're only in october^^)

It was written that there would be a week to prepare a pretender, maybe some people haven't finished testing theirs yet (plus the game is supposed to start on wednesday anyway, so nobody is late so far)

[Tryfan]

Slow down Tryfan :) (and don't stay near the chimney all day, we're only in october^^)

It was written that there would be a week to prepare a pretender, maybe some people haven't finished testing theirs yet (plus the game is supposed to start on wednesday anyway, so nobody is late so far)

And maybe thats all there is to it... but when someone known for dropping a game doesn't seem to be reacting to a new one, you can't help but wonder.

You don't want inactives right off the bat, right?

[WraithLord]

Guys, I did state that players would be given a week to prepare pretenders. That week ends tomorrow so we aim to start the game tomorrow.

re. slow players - I don't have a problem with that but I do have a problem with staling players. Too many stales w/o explanation or asking for delays just plain sucks so please try to avoid that.
Let's cross the bridge when we get there though. We're not deleting any players from the list b/c we do or don't suspect they'll stale or go AWOL.

Players so far: 12
Ermor
Vanheim
Ulm
R'lyeh
Arcoscephale
Oceania
Jotunheim
T'ien Ch'i
Agartha
Caelum
Marignon
Man

Remaining 4 players please send your pretenders by tomorrow. Let's get this game rolling. Thanks!

[WraithLord]

Last player to UL pretender. Please do so ASAP. We'd like to start the game today. Thanks.

Status:
Players so far: 15
Ermor
Vanheim
Ulm
R'lyeh
Arcoscephale
Oceania
Jotunheim
T'ien Ch'i
Agartha
Caelum
Marignon
Man
Shinuyama
Pangaea
Mictlan

[WraithLord]

Herode, I think it's your pretender that's missing. can you please send it?

[Herode]

Here I am :p

[WraithLord]

cool. I pressed the green button turns should be sent soon :)

[Tryfan]

So who's gutsy enough to go for a turn 1 expansion against unknown strength 9 independents...

[WraithLord]

legolasjrt, can you please send the first turn?

FYI, hosting interval for first 15 turn is 24h and quick host is on. For first turn the server seemed to give 48h although I've set the host interval to 24h. So you were actually lucky not to stale ;)

[Executor]

Actually, the hosting interval on the first turn is always set to 48h on Llamaserver.

[Aristander]

I seem to have received the email for turn 2 and turn 3 at the same time. At least I checked for turn 2 last night 8:00 pm est and had no file.

So the question is which turn should be submitted next.

Although a stale at this point is bad I just want to get the game going.


Thanks

Aristander

[WraithLord]

Turn 3 should be submitted.

You should have received turn 2 as well. I have no idea why you haven't. Perhaps it's a glitch in the server. You may want to report that to llamabeast.

Has anyone had the same issue?

[Executor]

What's everybody waiting for?

[Tryfan]

What do you mean? With one or two exceptions people are getting their turns in in reasonable time...

[BigandScary]

I had the same thing. I got a message saying my turn was due for turn 2, then I got the actual turn at the same time as turn 3. Oh well, 1 stale is no problem

[Executor]

I kinda mean everyone's sitting comfortable in their cap...

[Tryfan]

Maybe they're all like me and got hit with bad events in capital every turn.

[Executor]

Heyaps Lolomo, PM.
Heh, nice one, I actually bid on those guys...

[LoloMo]

Yes, our men are in need of female company :D

[Stagger Lee]

Going out of town this weekend. I will try to get in a turn Saturday morning (NY time), but will likely need an extension on the next turn. Thanks.

[WraithLord]

sure: "Hosting postponed for GotMI by 24 hours. The game will now host at 14:50 GMT on Sunday October 24th."

[Executor]

Damn this map is confusing, I have no idea where I expanded to...

[Aethyr]

Damn this map is confusing, I have no idea where I expanded to...

...or where you're going next, eh? ;)

[Executor]

How can there be 93 indie provinces left and I've run into 9 out of 15 players with no where to expand?

Well Ermor seems to be doing just fine...

[Tryfan]

How can there be 93 indie provinces left and I've run into 9 out of 15 players with no where to expand?

That would probably be because you've expanded faster than everyone else. Besides I can see neutral territories around you still, you're not as out of indies as you seem to be saying.

I think there's still a bunch of empty water territories too.

[Hadrian_II]

i will be away for the weekend, so could you postpone the next turn for 24h?

[WraithLord]

done

[Tryfan]

Why did you extend THIS turn? He's already gotten his turn in.

[WraithLord]

Well he asked an extension for the weekend. And where I live this is already the weekend :)

Anyway, extension undone.

[Executor]

Was there really a need for a delay on this turn either?
I'm not sure everybody's aware that we're on a 48 hour hosting schedule as of 2 turns ago.

[WraithLord]

ok. to keep the noise down I think we better move to a system of extension requests via PMs. So, when you need one make sure to PM me and tell me when you'll need it.

[Executor]

Caelum? What's up with that?

[Dark Kitty]

Our mammoths seem to be drawned to your lands, I guess it's the climate :)

[Executor]

That I can understand, what I can't however is that you're crossing over half the world to get to me and I can fend you off on a single choke province and use the furs off your mammoths to keep my giants warm.
Or do you maybe expect help from that big army in the west?

[Executor]

Oh, BTW, who organized the gank on me? I doubt it's you since I didn't even have a border with you until TC gave you one of his provinces, and TC, one could consider that a NAP violation, however it seems you probably have no intent on keeping it.

[Executor]

Well, as expected, TC has violated the NAP.
Since there is no reason to honor a NAP with a nation that doesn't honor it itself Jotunheim offers, say 1500 gold to any nation that joins us against our crusade on TC.

[Aethyr]

Well, as expected, TC has violated the NAP.

The Bakemono frown upon those who do not honor their agreements. We would hear TC's answer to this charge.

[Ossa]

Ho ho... slowly. Jotunheim *never* aknowledged the NAP with TC.
They never even answered our repeated offers and calls.

If they ever had, TC would not have attacked Jotun in the first place.

We just made a preemtive strike, as we were sure the hungry giants were ignoring our diplomats on purpose.

We did not break a NAP, we never had one - you never answered to our offers.

We would also have prefered this to be different. You dont go to war with the leading nation in the game easily if your research is just beginning to kick in.

[Executor]

I think I did acknowledge it, but it makes little difference even if I didn't, which I doubt.
In any case, I am hardly the leading nation in the game, Ermor is far better situated than me, and even Pythium is stronger.

Your little war makes absolutely no sense to my in any way, you are just kicking all 3 of us from the game.
Even if you do manage to blitz me whilst I'm occupied conquering Pangaea and unable to use all my forces to fight you and Caelum back, you would only get a pathetic 10-15 provinces at best to split between the two of you, and even by taking those provinces you'd be stretched far too widely on the map, which, again, is the reason I find your attempt to blitz me just insanely ridiculous.

Another thing that boggles my mind is that while I rose up to this position trough conquest and bloody war you'd choose to attack me rather than Ermor for example who is far bigger than me without even going to war yet, and yet still unchallenged in his expansion sadly.

So you are welcome to try and continue your crusade, however I promise you even if you do win I will leave your empires shattered so that you're easily overrun by your next enemy.
If you wish to deal, I only offer this turn after that it's war till the end.

[Ossa]

You're starting from the wrong assumptions - my little war makes sense in the context that I believed you'd be attacking me soon.

I'll refer to Caelum and see if we can make an agreement.

[Executor]

You're starting from the wrong assumptions - my little war makes sense in the context that I believed you'd be attacking me soon.

I'll refer to Caelum and see if we can make an agreement.

Why would I attack you, we only have 1 connecting province and you're too far away, that makes no sense.
Give me your terms if you are willing to stop this, you may find me on the IRC to deal faster.

[Tryfan]

Why would I attack you, we only have 1 connecting province and you're too far away, that makes no sense.

*suddenly gets a lot more nervous*

[Ossa]

*dont have ICQ* :/

But I sent you a PM.

[Executor]

Your incredible lack of strategy blows my mind Caelum, it won't be long before you run out of luck and I completely annihilate you.

[Dark Kitty]

Then it will only expand your territory and you should be glad :angel (one may think this giant idol has feet of clay and tries intimidation instead of letting the unaware opponent dive into its jaws ;))

Actually I made a bit too many friends :P so you're my only target and the only big nation I can access easily...

[Herode]

Dear and Lovely Admin : I don't have enough time to play this evening and won't be able to open Dom3 before tomorrow 07:00 PM GMT+1. Could you extend next turn for 3-4 hours or so ?

[WraithLord]

Why only naturally esteemed fellow player. Four more hours are granted for carrying out the usual dominions machinations: planning your wars, negotiating alliances and contemplating betrayals ;)

[Herode]

Why only naturally esteemed fellow player. Four more hours are granted for carrying out the usual dominions machinations: planning your wars, negotiating alliances and contemplating betrayals ;)

Ho, you're so right : there are subtle politcians in our poor and tainted world. Who shall care their cunning whispers ? :p

[Aethyr]

Hello fellow players:

Right now there seems to be a huge descrepancy between the "last updated time" and the current time, as listed on Llamaserver. While this has happened before and *usually* works itself out, there have been instances in which turns submitted close to the scheduled hosting time have failed to register and a stale has resulted. The best way to avoid this is to submit your turns as soon as possible.

[Executor]

Hmm, that was a rather unfortunate event. My magic duel missed due to storm (I presume). I'll be sure to bring many more casters for the next battle Caelum.

[Dark Kitty]

I was very surprised Storm affected a 100 precision spell like this too... (plus my stupid mistake forgetting that my casters were not lightning immune, I was quite lucky I think...:p)

[WraithLord]

Ermor would like to publish a trade offer to all the nations: In return for astral gems Ermor would give the same amount of either E/W/A/F/D gems, items (of respective cost) or gold (at better than fire alchemy rate - 25g per perl).
Please PM me if you're interested.

[Executor]

WL, do you like have some imps building you devilish forts under the full moon every month? Let me know your secrets, I can barely scrap enough gold to buy a round of mages..?
TC, that goes to you too? Where does that money come from?

[WraithLord]

:lol I'll tell you all about those fort imps when the game's over or I'm out, whichever comes first :)

[Stagger Lee]

With 72hr hosting, can we have the reminders at 12 or 24hrs? I had my turn done and thought I'd sent it in already. :)

[WraithLord]

"Reminders will now be sent 18 hours before hosting to any players who have not yet submitted their turns."

[Numahr]

O follow Pretenders

Be informed that the proud Nation of Caelum will continue its glorious fight under my Godly command.

The evil and blood-thirsty Nation of Jotunheim, as you know, is engaged in an infamous war against us. Our fighting spirit, however, is still intact. Any Nation willing to oppose Jotuns' ambitions are welcome to do it now, while the power of the Lighning is still mostly intact, and before the blood-thirsty giants cannot be stopped anymore.

[WraithLord]

Welcome aboard Numahr and thanks for stepping in.

[Aethyr]

The God of Agartha is a mighty being. :)

[Executor]

The nation of Caelum is the evil one, and we will slaughter you for trying to invade us and conspiring against the Empire of Jotun.

[Ossa]

The empire of TienChi offers concubines in exchange for gems of any kind.

[WraithLord]

OP updated.

BTW, do you think it would be a good idea to track how many VPs each player owns in OP. Not VP locations of course, just the count. or should we let each player do his own bookkeeping?
I'm thinking since we're with graphs on it would serve as the VP graph.

opinions?

[Herode]

Agreed :up:

[Herode]

Come and listen, people of Alexandria ! Pythium offers gems of any flavour for S gems, at the 1:1 rate. This is the time for you to get rid of those stupid perls. Just PM me with the number of S perls you can trade and the different flavour/amounts you wish.

God shave the Queen !
H. from Pythium

[Aethyr]

Agree on posting numebr of VPs.

[WraithLord]

We have +3 to posting # of VPs. I'll wait for your feedback until weekend then close the vote.

[Executor]

That's a *No* on the victory points for me.

[LoloMo]

I'm a yes with posting of VPs

[WraithLord]

That's yes+4 and no+1 so far.

Note that in future games I'll probably state that in the house rules in case the game is with graphs on and no capital VPs. In this game it was left vague hence I think the players should decide.

[Hoplosternum]

Yes to VPs

[Numahr]

I will not vote as I am kind of a temp sub.

But I have a trade offer: selling W gems, up to 30, against Air. Interested parties, please let me know quickly to make the deal this turn.

[Stagger Lee]

Yes to claiming VPs

[WraithLord]

Publishing # of VPs owned, +6.
Occulting # of VPs owned, +1.

[Executor]

Publishing # of VPs owned, +6.
Occulting # of VPs owned, +1.

Recount?
Oh just go ahead and write it in now, doesn't matter if everyone else votes no at this point, majority rules... (sigh)

[Herode]

[wtf ??? double edit of a post ? Another evidence of the rampant evil growing everywhere. See next post for details.

Snip]

[Herode]

Lords of This and That,

Here I come to claim in front of thee the Horrible Truth.

My scouts have reported fearsome events from dark places in the world. Evil is raising ! Evil is threatening all of us !

And what is worse for a Rightful One from Pythium, the Evil has risen amongst those who were our Beloved Brothers. Yes ! Ermor has fallen into the Hand of the Underworld. From every tainted corner of this former respectable realm, disgusting things are coming to life.

Our scouts have seen the Ultimate Heresy from their own eyes : here where the Holy Whisky was to be brewed and worshipped, unholly beings are now bleeding stincking seas of Coca Cola and other Things That Must Not Be Worded (like Big Macs and so on)

The Empire is raising, sending all around the world the lost souls of his deputies. His feared Zombies are growing and popping and erecting their impure bodies everywhere. Just look in your kitchen : the Unholly CocaCola is wasting the very Heart of our young men and virgins.

Yes ! They can !

Yes they did !

And this must be opposed.

Free people of the World, join Pythium and the Rebellion against the Empire ! For now on I claim, all treaties with the Evil Ermor are coming to their end and and when the legal delays will be elapsed, there will be blood.

Those who want to join Pythium and the Light, rise your arms and your swords.

And you, o Wraith Lord, O my Beloved and Lost brother, rejoice ! Rejoice for I am coming to you and I will free you through fire and steel. Just knee and bow and accept my gift. Then the Aeons to come will forgive your mistakes.

Anyway, resistance is futile for who can fight for long the Power of Love and Light ?

Hmmm ?

Well, at least that's what my Arch Theurgs say.

So be it.

From Enlightened Pythium,
H.

[Herode]

And, humm, yes, I forgot an important point : dear and beloved admin, would you mind to give me some delays for the Christmas truth ? I will be out of home from tomorrow morning to monday (12/27) and unable to play any turn before tuesday december 28th.

Merry Christmas to all of you, guys ! And see you soon on the battlefields :)

[WraithLord]

NP Herode and thanks for the reminder.

Merry Christmas all :)

[WraithLord]

It is distressing that the western empire is so fragmented and ruled by greedy short sighted leaders, that it would declare war on the eastern empire.

And for the sorry excuse of zombiphobia. Give us a break, the zombies are out of the closet and they are cute as puddles. They help the citizens with every day work and are good, if silent and somewhat unpleasantly smelly, companions. ( You'd be surprised at the difference a good cologne can make :) )

I have been a good neighbor to you and did nothing to provoke your aggression. Your greed would be your downfall, if not by my hands then I'm sure by someone else's.

[Numahr]

The proud Nation of Caelum sells Nature and Earth gems of the finest quality against Air gems. Offer available this turn only.

[WraithLord]

48h extension given :)

[WraithLord]

ok. I guess the voting conclusion is to make the # of VPs owned public knowledge.

I'll publish what I know. If there's any correction (due to possible hole in my intel grid) please feel free to comment (but not with locations, only numbers).

Once the initial list is verified I'll put it and maintain it in the OP.

[WraithLord]

# VPs owned (list only nations with more than 1):

Jotun: 3
Rlyeh: 2
Pythium: 2

[Aethyr]

T'ien Ch'i: sending a scripted mage into one of our provinces is a clear violation of our NAP. Did the old fool simply loose his way, or have you just declared war on the Bakemono?

[Ossa]

No, we did not - this old fool clearly lost his mind. Actually we have to see what happened exactly - no harm was intended (and surely not done, or?)

[Aethyr]

No, we did not - this old fool clearly lost his mind. Actually we have to see what happened exactly - no harm was intended (and surely not done, or?)

I'm afraid I'll have to hold you to a strict interpretation of our NAP, my friend. Your mage attacked, so therefore, you violated NAP and our agreement is null and void. :)

Good Luck

[Hadrian_II]

greetings i need a short delay of 3h so that i'll be able to make my turn

thx

[WraithLord]

That was a close call. I could just as well have missed your requst.

Next time, please make sure to ask for extensions in advance :)

[WraithLord]

Van has staled twice in a row.
Is anyone in contact with him or has any idea why he stales?

[Hoplosternum]

Yes I am in contact with him. From the sounds of it he is still playing....

[WraithLord]

Guys, the turn should have hosted already but the llamaserver issue delayed the hosting.

I'll set the next host to this evening (24h) extension. Please ping me if you need more time.

[Herode]

That unexpected delay from llamaserver has been a chance for me : the turn I submitted yesterday was not the good one. And it's not a safe time to stale, with Evil Ermor attacking poor Pythium without a single good reason ^^

PS : Vanheim has not submitted his turn either. Still staling ? Maybe we should look for a sub ?

[WraithLord]

Hoplosternum, can you please ask Van player to submit his turn?

Herode is right that it won't do to have him stale his turns. Another unjustified stale and I will be looking for a sub.

Herode is also pretending to have altzheimer as he himself declared war on Ermor, why even right in this very thread. He even went further and assured me (via PM) that he just broke the NAP and will not really attack me. But, of course, I wasn't fooled as sure as the night follows the day Pythium has attacked Ermor.

Herode, You can't just throw the match and then complain why you got your eybrows singed ;)

But I guess you're not working alone, he?- As the lovely, harmless, giant werevolves have also broken their NAP with me. Yes, Ermor's head would look nicely above your fireplace. Ahmm, bad thought, glad I didn't utter it out loud :)

[Executor]

Jotunheim has not declared war or taken any hostile actions against Ermor even after the NAP expired. But that didn't stop the foul undead to plot, mass their undead legions at our borders and instigate wars against us as Mictlan has already fallen under the influence of the silver tongued harbingers of death...

[WraithLord]

Oh, Yes, for the world would be best served by the coming of the Illwinter and the rule of the Jotun Jarls.

Oh and how's that for a nice plan to add yet another VP and so many lands. Let Pyth bleed Ermor and then sweep on for the kill :)

Nicely played, crafty barbarians, gladlely Mictlan is wise enough to see right through such plot.

[Herode]

Herode is also pretending to have altzheimer as he himself declared war on Ermor, why even right in this very thread. He even went further and assured me (via PM) that he just broke the NAP and will not really attack me.
But I did not declare war on you and I did not attack you, O my Beloved and Fallen Brother.

I declared only Salvation through Holy Fire. Because I love you. I am very disappointed that you do not cooperate for your own safety. The medication will be much more long and painful if your resilience do not disapear. And I do not want to see you suffer.

Be wise, turn you impure armies back to your native mountains, knee and wait the Pure Love of Holy Me, I will show you the Path to Eternity.
:rose:

[WraithLord]

If you so love thy brother then why break said NAP. Why attack his lands?

If you so wish peace and harmony then why sow discord?

Ermor is not interested in war and has always been a good neigbor to you. Saying otherwise would be a flat out lie.
Here, to show our compassion, generosity and forgiving nature so that all could see, we're even willing to give you this one time opportunity to back away from your aggression plans. Come, reinstate the NAP with me so that peace could be restored.

And while we're at it, let all know that Ermor will stand by the brave nations such as Mictlan to the last. Victory or defeat on this world means nothing to Ermor but know this: Ermor will do all that is within its power to support its friends. For the legacy of Ermor will long outlast the outcome of this struggle.

[Executor]

We have been invaded time after time, we merely wish to protect our borders.

Would one not consider endless undead legions patrolling our very countryside an act of hostility? Why keep such close proximity, unless you are lurking from the shadows, waiting in the dark just for the right moment to strike and convert us as well?

We shall not fall under your unholy corruption, nor of your minions!
Mictlan and Ermor shall be purged of their sins!

[WraithLord]

:lol

Patrolling is in place to try and prevent those stealthy wolf form scratti from overrunning our lands and then perform the famous "poof, I took all your provinces in one turn" trick :) (those unfamiliar - ask Calmon for detailed explanation :D )

And while at it why not try to convince Mictlan to abandon Ermor to it's death like you did with TC and Caelum?- Worked out quite well the last time around, right? ;)

[Herode]

So you can see, poor TC, Evil Ermor is plotting against you as well. Yes, that's sad but true. May I give you my humble advice : you'd better stop playing futile games with the Honourable Shinuyama and better turn against Mictlan who submitted his soul to Evil Ermor.

Anyway, how could you trust a man wearing feathers here and there, hmmmm ? He obviously cannot be in a reliable state of mind, can he ?

Not that I intend to criticize Mighty Caelum, of course. At least THEY have wings :angel

[Aethyr]

Alas, the slinking tricksters of TC no longer have a say in their own fate. They have angered the masters of the Oni, and now must be taught the better part of wisdom. The Bakemono have risen, and while their numbers are small at present, they breed quickly. ;)

[WraithLord]

I get it. It's happy hour and everyone's invited to Herode's evening show.

Do go on dear Herode, just give me a few moments to grab some beer and pretzel :D

[Herode]

You're welcome, buddy. Time for whisky here :cheers:

[Executor]

O Mictlan? Do you fear Ermor will leave you to your fate and sacrifice you to save himself? Your soul can still be redeemed, declare war on the foul undead creatures and you will be speared.

French man drinking whiskey, travesty...:p

[WraithLord]

"Do you fear Ermor will leave you to your fate and sacrifice you to save himself?"
Not in a million years. Raise a hand on Mictlan and Ermor shall be there to chop it off.

"Your soul can still be redeemed, declare war on the foul undead creatures and you will be speared." Sure, while Jotun devours another nation, this one a big fat non-undead-yet nation ;)
He'll give you that - you and TC will be his last victims. That is certainly something to look up to :)

[WraithLord]

Van player has staled three in a row.
He also didn't answer my PM.
I will wait today. If no answer is forthcoming I will look for a sub tomorrow.

[WraithLord]

ok. we're now officially looking for a sub to lead Van.

Edit: Tryfan, I hope you're ok and not having any RL crisis.
I'll assume you were suddenly unable to play dominions anymore nor communicate that fact. Finding otherwise would be disappointing.

[Executor]

What happened to the score graphs on Llamaserver?
Has Ermor managed to sabotage even that as to keep us in the dark about his rising powers?

[LoloMo]

The score graphs in my other llamaserver games are gone too.

[Calahan]

llamabeast recently did a bit of bug-fixing on his server with regards how a new version of the game would inadvertantly enable the llamascores in games that they shouldn't have. Part of the fix saw him turn off the llamascores for all games, and then have them return in only the games that should have them when those games next hosted.

In short, the llamascores should return once the turn hosts. (in this game, and every game where they've disappeared)

[WraithLord]

Thanks Calahan.

As a master subber and a great player, may I interest you in taking the reins of the Kingdom of Van?- It has peace now with all it's neighbors and we're just at turn 45 so the all the options are open.

To other news - Originally the game should have hosted yesterday. Switching to 96h pushed to hosting 24h. The server however shows next host to be further pushed 48h. In the interest of maintaining the game momentum and fixing the score graphs I'll force host today (all but Van have sent turns).

As for Van, if no sub is found in the next few days I'm afraid we'll have no choice but to turn it to AI :(

[Executor]

Jotunheim officially declares war on Ermor. Our numbers might be small but we are big!

We invite the nations of R'lyeh, Marginon, Ulm and Shinuyama to join us.
Pythium has already started to fall before the undead legions, and their numbers seem endless.
This very turn the nation of Jotunheim has been invaded by Mictlan, Ermors faithful ally, and Ermor has placed massive troops on the Jotun - Ermor border, which include legions of undead, mages, Water Queens, Bane Lords, Spectral mages, trolls and troll Kings, and even their pretender.

It won't be long before Ermor takes over the world as the giants and the nation of Pythium can't stop them.

Please contact us, and join the crusade against the undead.

Cealum, now that everything's out in the open, would you mind telling me if it was Ermor who so Very generously supported you?
I for a fact know that you couldn't have had an amazing 240 A gems for summoning 8 Shinys, I made sure to waste as many Cealums gems in the first turn of the war and at least 100 were used for battlefields spells, including a load of water gems too. And let's face it, Cealum had a rather bad gem income.
I don't think you even had the mages to forge them the items, so, it Was Ermor who supported you right?

[WraithLord]

Yeah right. That's cheap propaganda if ever there was such :)

Pythium didn't yet lose one soldier. All he does is keep his armies mostly in his castles and attacks sporadically while I raid his lands. So it looks like I'm ahead of a war that's not really fought.

Second, Jotun has recruit-able SCs and blood eco. and can blood sac. It is one of the best nations in the game and certainly stronger the mid level MA Ermor. For example, to obtain one thug chasis I need to summon and equip a commander while Jotun can just recruit one from every castle.

The party is over Jotun. No more stomping over helpless nations. You have met your match and it shall be an even fight. If you could call 2 of the top three nations in the game teaming against the 3rd fair ;)

Besides, Pyth has asked for this war. He broke the NAP, attacked me and even though I gave him two chances to peace he has twice rejected them. I don't really want his lands and if he wants to I'll certainly consider to negotiate peace with him.

I'm also perfectly content to let Mictlan have all your lands and VPs. Let Miclan be a super power. I'm certainly for that as I've no desire to be the leading nation, that spot is too hot for my tastes.
Pay attention that although you threaten me, broke your NAP with me and try to convince other players to attack me (like Pyth ;) ) I did not attack you.

Pewf. How about that, the wolf masquerades as a sheep. Now that's a sight :)

Edit: Oh and I now notice that you resort to lies as well. Nice. Pray tell how many troll kings and trolls I have at your border?- How about 0 as I haven't even summoned one. Plus so many half truths that's just too tedious to list.

[Executor]

Ah, propaganda you say? On whose part?
Our scouts are not blind, we have reports of 15 trolls towering over a massive army. Those trolls usually come with Kings I must add, or would you make us think otherwise?

And what foul lies you speak! The good giants of Jotun have never and never will sacrifice a single being to spread the word of God, one would consider them unable to do so. We see though your false preaching, your lies and deception!

We hardly have recruitable SC's. Good thuggish, easily countered creatures to put it better. And yet it seems you have more Bane Lords than I have Werewolves...
Someone who instigates war certainly can't be considered a peaceful spectator, rather a silver tongued puppet master who deals with the faiths of others. If one tries to organize a war against me why should I not do the same?

[Numahr]

O despised unholy blood-thirsty giants,

Your question both insults and honors us.

Let it be known that the proud and independent nation of Caelum never was the puppet of an other nation. We would firmly refuse help if it meant loosing honor honor and independence, even at the brink of extinction.

You may have greatly underestimated the magical reserves we inherited from our God's previous incarnation. My Gem-Accountant-in-Chief does not have a full explanation for the origin of all the gems, probably just cautiously saved over time. But a large part of the explanation of what seems like a mystery for a limited giant's brain lies in the following facts:

- disappearing Pretenders, in a last inspiration of wisdom, may give a second life to their treasures by transferring it to the most virtuous Nation still alive, which does not mean becoming the puppet of anyone as the doomed Pretender does so on its way to Tartarus;

- the spell summoning those Shishis your unfortunate Giants have learned to love brings two of these lovely creatures for the price of 30 gems, not one. So what you see is the result of 4 rituals, who were entirely self-financed after 1-to-1 trade agreements to procure air gems;

- idem for the items, painstakingly procured on the international market at their real price.


Actually when I took over the main question was this, what to do of this little mountain of gems, I am happy to see that my choice brought us the opportunity of this little talk... :p

Waiting forward to your next wave of sentenced-to-death giants :D

[WraithLord]

Executor, you disappoint me.

You goad Caelum so that he'll tell you how much Shishis cost and how much gems he has. That's low. Is it not enough that you all but vanquished him and that he survives by fighting bravely and nobly against all odds - that you must resort to false accusations to get more info from him?
Is it not enough that through manipulation you caused his ally TC to betray him to his death?
Do you now try to do the same with me?- 2:1 (and thanks Mictlan now 2:2) odds not good enough for you?- R U concerned now you learn that your ally chooses to hide in his castles rather than fight?

Also, your scouts are not blind, you're just lying as I have no trolls. No W. queens (just 1) at your borders and not my pretender either for that matter. Here, happy?- Your filthy lies bought you more info for you to abuse. Turns are kept on the server so all can be checked thus such lies are futile.

Oh and "Good thuggish"? R U kidding?- I had Jotun in AT and those werewolves were a killing machine. With EN bless and cheapest of items they become. Well. Awesome. And you know that so don't play coy.

Nobody is my puppet. Now you insult me and my friends. I treat all the players I talk to with utmost respect. I never lie and keep all my promises. I lay out the facts and let each decide. Did it ever occur to you that those that side with me do that out of their own choice and will and after much thought or do your habits for manipulation make you see all the rest to be the same as you. I'm not power hungry to win. Don't care much about the outcome but I do care about those nations I'm bound to and luckily, they know I will never betray them.

You know what. You're not convincing anyone. The convinced are already convinced and I guess that's true for those who side with you as well as to the other camp.
However, resorting to lies and insults is low. Sad that you'd choose to act in such dishonor. It doesn't become a player of your stature.

[WraithLord]

Oh Man, Why did they remove the edit button :confused:

I double checked my turn and I owe you an apology re. one sub-fact that you mentioned. You said that "massive troops on the Jotun - Ermor border, which include legions of undead, mages, Water Queens, Bane Lords, Spectral mages, trolls and troll Kings, and even their pretender."
For the record I've only 1 WQ there, no spectral mages and no pretender. I don't have troll kings but I forgot that I summoned one sea king for BF water spell support :doh:. I checked all my border castles to try and figure out where that troll kings claim came from and found this one king. God forbid, as sea kings are known to dominate the late game :p
So while your statement consists of a number of lies and exaggerations I do in fact have one sea king.

While mentioning armies why don't you mention your armies at my borders? Complete with all the resplendence of NE bless woodsman and shrouded WW.

Why don't you mention that prior to your 2:1 war declaration on me Pyth had more income than me and you had more gems and provinces?- Is it my fault that Pyth doesn't fight back?- or would you like me to raise a white flag :yield: ? ;)

I say. Good riddance of Jotun. I want none of your provinces. All will go to my ally If things go my way.

[Executor]

Ah but we do not lie, your pretender is indeed there, one province away, in the reach of Pythium who will slay him!
Where one Water Queen is others may be found, that is a fair assumption.

So, where are you hiding those spectral mages? Are they already in my lands? I know I saw some once you took over helpless Agartha. ;)

Well maybe in your hands they would be SC. Not everyone knows how to use them. ;)

TC chose well in not attacking me. We both saw the error of our ways and stopped spilling innocent blood!

Sea Kings are quite good! People underestimate them I think.

My armies at the border. 50 archers on the front where you have 400 troops with all sort of goodies, and on the other side only poor woodsman and werewolves that retreated from Cealum and lost their way!

Are you so good that Mictlan even thinks it was his own choice to join you? Oh, how well you control the minds of others. Fear not good Mictlan, for you shell be liberated and guided into the eternal light!

How can the good giants sit by in peace and watch while you mass your troops on our borders? No more good sir, no more.
And did not the undead invite us to attack our beloved neighbor Pythium who stood by us and refused to join Cealums vicious attack on us? We are merely returning the favor.
Ermor has broken our thrust but we took no hostile actions so far. Only now when your ally attack me must I declare war on you, as I can not idly sit by and let this pass.

Really, Shishies are 2 for 30? How did I never notice that?

Well, that was quite enough for me. I'll stop now before this gets out of hand and we start spamming this thread :)

[WraithLord]

Dear Executor. I'll say it as politely as I can. You are making false claims. Here are the latest false claims that can be proven so by the turn files:
1. "your pretender is indeed there, one province away, in the reach of Pythium who will slay him!" flat out lie, ahm false claim.
2. "Where one Water Queen is others may be found, that is a fair assumption." If you knew that there was one why did say that all queens were there?- For dramatic effect?- Shows how credible your claims are.
3. "TC chose well in not attacking me." That is not entirely true. Combination of threats and a golden severance package got the job done :)
4. "My armies at the border. 50 archers on the front where you have 400 troops with all sort of goodies, and on the other side only poor woodsman and werewolves that retreated from Cealum and lost their way!" Man, you so enjoy misleading. Where you have archers and one or more Skratti your ally Pythium has, what is probably, the strongest single army on the map. Masses of the elite of the Pythian legions backed by "goodies" are present so naturally I had need of strong military presence in the region.
on the other side you have two armies at my borders and a 3rd on the move. Those armies contains woodsman, Skratti werewolves and Gygjas, certainly not paper tigers.
5. "Are you so good that Mictlan even thinks it was his own choice to join you? Oh, how well you control the minds of others." Pure nonsense. Your cynicism makes you blind to values of common sense and interests, loyalty and friendship and so mistake them for some magical mind control.
6. "And did not the undead invite us to attack our beloved neighbor Pythium who stood by us and refused to join Cealums vicious attack on us?" That was, a- after Pythium broke his NAP with me and before you did and b- I smelled a rotten fish between you two so I wanted to flush out the truth. I was 99% sure that you'd join Pyth and I was right. Maybe this is the time to mention that you were perfectly content to let me have my way with Pyth if only I allowed you to slay Mictlan. Ho, you didn't say so explicitly, you're too shrewd for that but you asked me whether I'm willing to let Mictlan be slain by you (and didn't attack me up to that point). Once I said that I wouldn't abandon Mict. then you started with your holy war in earnest.

As you may notice I didn't start this spam storm (that dubious honor belongs to you) but I will respond to propaganda, lies and false accusations. Well, at least until I get too tired of that.

[Executor]

Dear WL,
1. Was your pretender not located in 226? :), maybe you moved him now, I can't see as you are patrolling in most of your forts.
2.(4) As for credible claim, the armies on your border, isn't the one with the werewolves and some woodsman sieging a Cealum fort, and has been for quite some time now? And besides, you're patrolling and placing troops on your border, I just did the same this turn by splitting that army, and that army is in no way capable of defeating your army on the border. As for another army on the way, that was an army sent to siege the second Cealum fort, hm, and it's not exactly true to say Gygjas in plural, or maybe you mean the ones in the Cealum capital doing researching?
3. Why is that a false claim? We made a truce, under what conditions it was made is a private matter. I just stated we stopped fighting which we did.
4.Pythium army is unrelated to mine. I still only have about 50 troops with some mages in that fort. And besides, you stand between me and Pyths army so it's not like I have his protection there.
5. How conviniant to have Mictlan join you at this very moment and declare war on me.
6. You are right about this. I did need to join Pyth, but only because he can't beat you on his own as you are too powerful. So it's either watch you take over Pythium slowly and than probably everyone else, or join and try and deal with you along side Pythium. I'm much rather not go to war with you, but I can't let you take over Pythium. I think this is a very logical reaction on my part. If you and Pyth make peace I'd be more than willing to do the same.
I had no intension in attacking Micltan before he attacked me, which he did this turn. I even waved the last turn of the NAP once he asked when hostile actions could be taken as there were not supposed to be taken this turn but I don't mind. And as you see I've mobilized nothing against Mictlan and taken no actions what so ever.
Mictlan can still have peace if he so wishes.

I don't spam, or make false claims, lies or propaganda. All of the above is true.

[WraithLord]

Yet yo do :)

The answer to #1 is no.
The answer the #4 is yes, it's very related. For me it matters not who attacks me, you or Pyth. I need to defend myself in any case. So having a mega army at my border means I need to take counter measures.
The answer to #5 is obvious, why would Mictlan or anyone else risk attacking you?- Your nation is scary but once you moved to war with me a lot of the fear factor was gone so now you're actually a fair target and I hope Mictlan would benefit a lot from expanding into your lands.
The answer to #6 is that it's BS. How exactly was I slowly conquering Pyth when we were, a- at peace and b- I was constantly offering him better diplomatic ties. I had no intention of attacking Pyth whatsoever. Just check this thread to see how many times I offered to him to back out of his war declaration.

Peace is always a good option. As I said I'm willing to negotiate for a peace agreement with Pythium if he is so willing.
As for Jotunheim, I think too much blood has been spilled: Pangaean & Caelumite. Also, too much is in motion (Caelum is managing to survive and hit you back, Mictlan joining the fray). It will be difficult and possibly devestating to me, Mictlan and Caelum if we were to, now that things are too hot for you, back out. It will only give you time to regroup and restrengthen and pick us down one at a time at your leisure.
I'm afraid such a move would be suicidal to us and we can't have it.
You should know that a lot of what came to pass is the result of Caelums cry for help. It took a very long time for such help to come (due to fear factor that I admit to have shared as well :) ) but now that it did, it would be stupid to back off.

I'm sorry friend, looks like the camps are made and the battle lines are drawn, now all that's left is to see how things play out.

[Executor]

I grow tired of you deceptions WrathLord,
after this you shall hear no more from me.

It seems you have so much troops you keep forgetting where many are. I saw your pretender in Agarthas land, no need to deny that.

I fail to see the reason in where you and Pythium keep stockpiling troops on the border to be in any way or sense related to me. This started even before I withdrew my NAP, in fact I think it started way back when you assimilated Agartha, and Pyth assimilated Man who were at war with each other.

What is BS? I told you that I will not let Pythium go to war with you alone, that means even in the case in which he now attacks you, although you took the initial hit and now I've declared war, after the NAP expired. He might attack you first, but you'll still end up the winner, and I can't allow that to happen. I never stated you attacked as that makes little difference.

Heh, you act as if I keep attacking everyone, when it was I who was attacked by Cealum, and now by Micltan too. TC also attacked me, but we worked out peace. So that's 3 nations so far that attacked me, and yet you portrait me as the aggressor.

If it's war you seek, I will grant you that wish. We now go to war my friend.

[WraithLord]

"It seems you have so much troops you keep forgetting where many are. I saw your pretender in Agarthas land, no need to deny that." :lol, however that's still not true. Never has my pretender set foot in Agarthan lands. I'd be more than happy to send the turn files to you or any 3rd party once the game is over for close scrutiny.

"I fail to see the reason in where you and Pythium keep stockpiling troops on the border to be in any way or sense related to me. " It started when Pyth broke his NAP with me.

"What is BS?" You saying you had to come to Pyth's help when, a- I was at peace with Pyth and even offered him a longer NAP; b- Pyth broke his NAP with me and c- you broke your NAP with me as well. If you hadn't initiated this I would never have attacked Pyth. In short, you made this brew and now complain that it's not to your liking ;)

War has been forced upon us yet we shall not flinch nor fail our allies.

[Numahr]

Unholy Jotuns!

You burned Caelum's millenarian library with its unique sum of holy knowledge, and you confess conducting unholy researches with hideous Gygjas in our most refined Citadel of Frozen Crystals. Who knows if you don't use captured Caelian virgins for your perverse rites!!! :shock:

These are definitely your ultimate sins, don't be surprised if civilized Nations take steps against you! :mad:

If you think this is too much for your poor Giants, give me back my capital and all territories once administrated by the wise rule of the Seraphs, and you -might- receive our forgiveness.

[Hoplosternum]

Mictlan can still have peace if he so wishes.



We can have peace Lord of the Werewolves. After you have been cut down to a more manageable size ;)

Your meek and mild utterances would be taken more seriously if you were not both a feared veteran player and in control of one of the most powerful MA nations :) Which I fear we have all let have far too long a time of peace considering your Blood potential :( I just hope I am not too late in striking. And even if this war goes badly I hope others are encouraged to throw their hat into the ring rather than meekly concede to you later on....

I dare say you might have stayed at peace. After all your Blood income and stockpile should already be very high. How much longer would you need before you turned that in to power and received everyone's concession? Why risk painting a target on your head by taking more lands when you can win with what you have as long as no other power grows large enough to challenge you?

But we are all wise to your plan - except Pythium :p - and whether I fight you alone or with allies the rest of the world will be praying for a Mictlan not Jotun victory. For that way lies hope for us all :angel:

[Executor]

A fair point Hoplo, but Ermor is not exactly a kitten either nor the player behind it.

I'd have you take just this one thing into account,
I have been in constant wars since turn 8 onwards, spending gems, gold, wasting troops etc, while your good ally is still untouched by war, which means he has an even bigger gem stockpile. His forts, army, doesn't it frighten you?

Think about who the real big bad wolf is, and if Pyth and I get defeated which seems like a very likely option after all, who will be left standing to take on your ally...

We look forward to meeting you in battle. Cheers.

WL, I might have been mistaken. I remember that *that* could have been an enslaved Agarthain Oracle. I owe you an apology if so.

[WraithLord]

NP Executor, gouging things from scout reports may be misleading. As is the case here.

Your point is somewhat valid though (MA Ermor has far less tools in it's shed them Jotun) but hopefully if you fall the nation that takes your lands would be very strong and I certainly plan to let Mictlan have it all.

Re. Pythium, If we win and if Pyth refuses peace then I may freely give some of it's provinces and one of it's VPs to one of my allies. I will do all that's possible to not paint a big target on my forehead.

But, First things first - we have a war to win.

Executor, I genuinely respect you and value your friendship. I guess we were bound to run into each other at some point and so we have :)

GL and may the best beast, wolf, undead, legionary, winged birdman or spotted jagwere win :D

[WraithLord]

Guys, If no sub is found for Van by next turn I'll be forced to turn it to AI. It sucks but I guess we're better off with AI than with a leaderless nation.

In case you didn't know there isn't a magic "turn AI" button on the server. I'll have to ask a favor from some trusted 3rd party to perform that task.

[NebulousQ]

If you are willing to let a newbie sub in, I'll sub for Vanhiem. It would be my first multiplayer game however.

[WraithLord]

NebulousQ, I think that would be fine. The AI is completely hopeless and is only serviceable (in a way) for SP. As for you, I hope this would serve to be an entertaining learning experience. Please PM with your email address ASAP. Once I get it I'll set you up for controlling Van and extend the hosting so you have time to get your bearings.

[NebulousQ]

PM sent.

[WraithLord]

Turn sent. I'll also add 48h to the timer.

Welcome aboard :)

[Hadrian_II]

The Void knows that everyone is lying

[WraithLord]

Guys, it looks like Tryfan has doubly scrxwed us, first disappearing like that and 2nd by password protecting his file.

Hoplosternum, any chance you can ask him for the password?

I have set a master pwd in place but I'm reluctant to pass it.

Dear players, I am asking for any helpful suggestions you may have. I don't want to drag the game forever and NebulousQ has his turn but can't play it :(

[Executor]

Well, just to be on the safe side I suggest you take over Vanheim and give Ermor over to NebulousQ. That seems like the most logical step to me.

Also, if you happen to find Vanheim not to your liking you should than change yourself to AI. And don't forget to send your gems and gold to someone so they don't go to waste, say to Jotunheim for example...

[WraithLord]

:lol

And then I could finally start a new game. Perhaps take MA Jotun again ;) -> Tempting... :D

BTW, I gave NebulousQ the M pwd. No point in prolonging this sad saga any longer.

[NebulousQ]

I have taken over as Vanheim, thanks to Wraithlord and everyone for letting me sub into this game. I should be able to get my turn in today (Monday January 17).

[Aethyr]

Greetings NebulousQ, and welcome to the game. :)

[NebulousQ]

Thanks for the welcome!

Also, I guess we have to apply the patch for the next turn?

[Aethyr]

IIRC from past upgrades, Llamaserver process this turn either way, but will require everyone to upgrade before the next turn is due.

[Herode]

I've read with much interest the last public declarations of many lords here. And I want know to make myself humble and to bow behind the Silver Words of my Fallen Brother WL. I admit I am not a match for that kind of magic. I, ruler of Pythium, I have been trying to gather some help against the Ermorian threat from several nations, since say... t20 or so. Without any success, even when it was still something easy to do : Ermor was not at his best and his war machine was still asleep, the Zombies were just grabbing undefended indies all around their lands. But at this point, although the graphs were already very indicative, nobody dared to join Pythium against Ermor. Worse : one nation spoke to Ermor and told them what I was trying to do. End of round 1.

And now we are, the graphs are even more indicative. Everybody is able to see that Ermor still recruits swarms of troops despite the fights, when his opponents are now blocked. At this point, only Jotun, for obvious reasons, has agreed to engage against Ermor. Not a single other nation, despite my continued efforts, not a single other free nation joined. But some foolish rulers did join Ermor anyway.

Magic, I say. :up:

And unfortunately, Ermor is now much more difficult to face than it was 20 turns ago, and Ermor has gained allies.

So my guess now is : either you, Lords of the Free and Living World, awake from your funest sleep and fight the Zombie Wave while it is time to fight, or the Fate has risen and the whole world will soon knee under the ermorian flag.

And you know what ? There's not a single foocking Whisky Distillery able to brew under such stinky scales. :(

You've been warned.

Vae victis & God Save the Talisker,
H. from Pythium

[WraithLord]

Oh such fine fearmongery as I've ever laid eyes upon. And from the mouth of one who has so much as admitted to play crown maker for Jotun.

Tsk. Tsk. So two leading nations, both considered to be top tier (one of which is IMHO the best nation - Pythium) both amongst the top three in the graphs, that control 5 VPs and 3 globals in common!!! - make a move to shred their opposition and crown the frost giants. And now that forces have awakened to oppose them they would speak as Sauron to the lords of Numenor, they would scare and they would speak sweet poison - all in an effort to break all bonds of fellowship and so take over the world one piece at a time.
Before that when Ermor stood alone and had zero chance of survival they sang a whole different tune.

Consider what would have happened had Ermor collapsed. Jotun = Jotun *2 or Pythium = Pythium *2. Now that's a scary thought, luckily for all I stand my ground and with help I may even survive this war whilst my allies grow to become super powers.

[Aethyr]

# VPs owned (list only nations with more than 1):

Jotun: 3
Rlyeh: 2
Pythium: 2

Greetings, IIRC after the intial count (above) the VP total was to have been maintained in the initial thread. WL, could you update please? :)

[WraithLord]

Sure Aethyr. Thanks 4 the reminder.
Please bear in mind that I'm basically sharing my knowledge. There's no magic chart on the server that lists the VPs since we turned off capital VPs.

BTW, I'm not sure I'm that fond of this setting. It ends up generating bookkeeping hassle and everyone quickly learns where all the capitals are anyway. so what's the point?

[Hadrian_II]

BTW, I'm not sure I'm that fond of this setting. It ends up generating bookkeeping hassle and everyone quickly learns where all the capitals are anyway. so what's the point?

just use capital vps, and set the goal to all, so the game does not end apruptly and you dont have to count manually. btw, asia twist does mark all capitals with a very big spot.

[WraithLord]

good point.

And while I'm at it: Happy weekend guys, rest well and prepare for the epic battles next week will bring :)

[Calahan]

BTW, I'm not sure I'm that fond of this setting. It ends up generating bookkeeping hassle and everyone quickly learns where all the capitals are anyway. so what's the point?
Well as a big fan of these settings myself, seeing as how I use them in all my newbie games, I thought I'd better defend them :) (even though I'm not in this game).

The settings themselves are fine, but there were two big errors made with this game.


1 - The map (if it's the default Asia Twist one) had known pre-set starting locations. One of the main ideas about not VP marking the capitals is that it helps stop rush nations bee-lining for the nearest crown, and forces them to actually find the capital of their nearest neighbour. (Since rush nations really shouldn't be given any extra help to crush others inside of 10 turns). This might only result in a few extra turns of delay for the rush nation, but given the likely lack of scouts in the first few turns, this could be critical. As anyone who has ever had to defend a rush knows all too well how much of a difference an extra few turns can be.

So for this 'rush-hindering feature' of these settings to work, you need to have a 3rd party arrange the start locations, and not give the final .map file used for the game to the players (as only the llamaserver needs the .map file). For those playing in the No Wankers Allowed game (or any of my newbie games), this is what I have done in these games (since I'm the non-playing admin of all these games). Of course, finding a 3rd party to arrange starting locations for hidden capitals is another matter. But one is needed for this 'rush-hindering feature' to work (unless you go with random starts, which are nowhere near as bad as some players make out. But that is just IMO of course)


2 - For some baffling reason, you are keeping a running record of the number of capitals that players currently own. Thereby punishing the players in-game who have bothered to put time, effort and resources into running constant surveillance operations on the capitals of the world, so that they always know when one changes hands, and as such if someone if getting too close to the winning line.

But doing this simply rewards the lazy players who can't be bothered to operate a proper scout network, or invest the gems into a Stone Sphere piggy-bank. As by effectively giving everyone back a VP graph in the OP, nobody has to be worried about someone suddenly capturing a load of capitals they haven't got a constant eye on, because they will now be given this info in the OP if this happens. (of course a big factor here is also a player's own view regarding 'hidden / stealth' wins, due to the other players being unaware that one player was close to winning. I think they're great personally, and a natural penalty for those players who don't pay attention to the larger picture. But others hate them for obvious reasons)


Of course, everyone has their own tastes and preferences for game settings, but as I said, being a fan of the ones in this game, I feel you are not really seeing the benefit of them because of the two mistakes that I have just outlined. Either of which on their own can seriously de-value these settings, but together almost certainly make the basic idea of "not marking capitals with VP's" pretty much pointless.

So I'd ask anyone to please not knock these settings unless you've actually tried them within the context of their proper set-up, and when they are WAD :) which is not the case here unfortunately :( (which is in no way a criticism of Wraithlord the admin, as a lot of game settings require both trial and error and experience in order to find out what is required to get the best out of them. And I've admined a lot of games)


Sorry for butting-in (I think it's a habit I really do have to stop :p)


ps. Just want to say thanks to WL and Ex for all the diplo posturing and wind-blowing on the thread. I had started to lose a little faith recently in no-diplo games, since my last few had been spoiled by a few factors that are less evident in diplo games. But seeing you two bash it out on the thread has starkly reminded me why I hate diplomacy so very very much, and as such all the reasons why no-diplo games simply rule.

So thanks for the reminder, and long live no diplomacy games!!!!

[WraithLord]

#1 is a good point if indeed turn 10 rushes are common. My personal experience doesn't suggest that this be the case.

#2 is also a good point. I put it for the players to vote and most wanted to make the list known. Please take into acct that we do play with graphs on, and VP victory condition, so the approach in this game was to feed the players with graphs info from the starters.

I played in two non graphs MP games and they were horrible b/c the assumption that all players would scout vigilantly did not hold water. What happened is that a nation would long run away with the game with scarce anyone taking note until it's too late. You could play with LA Ermor or R'lyeh and they'd become unstoppable but still most players would be unaware. It doesn't help that one or two players catch on as it's neigh impossible to convince the others. Note that I'm sure that the mix of players does make a difference here.

I think perhaps a # of provinces VC might make more sense for graphs on diplo games. Re. non graphs: I personally dislike them since they add a lot of work and allow nations to run away with the game. That said, I'd be willing to give it a retry, either as an admin or player or both.

I do agree that I absolutely like RAND game more, but then and again it's nice to enter the mud wrestling arena of diplo games and practice the tongue & finger muscles :)

[Herode]

Hey, I foocking KNEW you loved that :D

[Hoplosternum]

In this game indies were at 9 so really early rushes were not as likely.

I can see why people get jaded with the manipulation, lying, recrimination and simple time that needs to be taken on diplomacy :) But it is voluntary. And I suspect it helps reduce drop outs. If you are well behind in a game it is easy to become disconnected to the game and this can leads to drop outs. Especially when such a player, after dozens of quick 'at peace' turns, is suddenly faced with attacks by far more powerful opponents and has to take a long time over his last few.

Scouting depends. How many indie scout provinces do you find? Can you build stone spheres? Do you have cheap researcher options at your none capital forts?

I think Calahan's ideal settings might work well for the players who are doing well in the game. But if you aren't it makes you blind and mute. Not so good. Of course my and Calahan's preferences probably reflect that he is a good player who is used to winning or challenging for the win and I am often, well, not ;)

[Aethyr]

I find that I like both settings (diplo/non diplo) well enough as they provide a change of pace. What frustrates me sometimes with non diplo games is the inablity to trade. Usually this is not a game changer, but it has been my misfortune to be extremely unlucky in my site searching in several non diplo games, and I felt that if I just could have worked a few trades it.would.have.made.a.huge.difference.

[Executor]

Calahan is on point about VP, tho I think I was the one who suggested this setup and I had no idea there indeed where those spots that marked capitals on this map at the time.

But still, I was the only one opposed to keeping track of current VP, as I do too think that's free info for others that have invested far lesser resources.

Personally, I prefer no score graph games BECAUSE one can run away with the win. :)
Even more so no diplo games, partially because I hate diplo, therefor don't bother with it much and often get stuck on the losing team.
Isn't it nice when you have a nice lead and everyone is too afraid to attack you but can't call for help as they usually do? :)

As for rushers, I believe they are just as likely if not even more so with higher indies. Rush nations have no problem with high indies while others will have a harder time beating them.
I myself tried to rush Ulm as soon as I realized caps were marked (tho I did not know it was Ulm at the time), and was at his capital around turn 7-8 already. Those sacred chopping infantry of Ulm made me pull back and deal. :)
And still I managed to invade Pang around turn 15-ish. And than there were TC and Cealum... and now Ermor and Mictlan... wow :p

Anyway, the reason people do run away with the win is because there are always only a hand full of nations that play aggressively enough to gain a lead. After that, it's as much as eliminating those few nations of similar power to win the game.
The rest, which is ofter the majority of players wait to long to make war.

I personally feel that you have to be out of your first war by turn 30 or so. Than it's back to research/build phase.
The sooner you attack a nation the better. There really is no point in "preparing" as with every passing turn your enemy will be preparing as well and anticipating, or planning, an attack more and more. So the only logical thing to do is hit someone before they hit you. If you manage to invade someone by turn 15 they'll always be caught with their pants down, will need time to regroup while you take that time to raid some provinces and ensure a gold lead, which in the end is all you need to rush someone, even if a non bless nation, just brute force.

[WraithLord]

And did you never experience an early rush that ended in bitter early war that no side could win???
In diplo game you have the option to negotiate peace and look 4 an easier target but in non-diplo you're stuck and most likely will lose the game.

I'd add to your suggestion that it pays to be aggressive when the expected war is not going to be fair. When you have a big advantage.

Naturally, to each his own but I personally like graphs on games with or w/o diplo. I think I'll more or less stick to those in the future :)

[Executor]

And did you never experience an early rush that ended in bitter early war that no side could win???


Nope. :)

Interesting turn I must say. Flaming slingers a? Huh, I really expected something else with those gems sadly.
That was sure a lot of blood vines I lost this turn. And who would have expected AP, multiple attack, high strength blood vines wouldn't smack off mistform from those damn shinyas...

Btw, Ermor, it was fun watching 15 shadow vestals all trying to kill a paralyzed werewolf. :)

And really, Rlyeh?
You chose to attack me? I can't even begin to comprehend what a ridiculous choose that is.

[WraithLord]

"Btw, Ermor, it was fun watching 15 shadow vestals all trying to kill a paralyzed werewolf. "
Well, they're great to begin with, with gift of health and your (apparent) dom push they are neigh invisible in melee.
I got lucky in this battle but your ally has scored some hits on me :)

[Hadrian_II]

And really, Rlyeh?
You chose to attack me? I can't even begin to comprehend what a ridiculous choose that is.

Fhtagn

[WraithLord]

TC has staled last turn. Is anyone in contact with him?- Is he also going to go MIA on us? :(

[LoloMo]

Ulm (me) and Shinuyama is at war with him, and it doesn't look good for him. But as far as I know, he's still fighting. Our last exchanged pms was about a week ago I think.

[Executor]

WL, I'd appreciate a 18h delay on the current turn, Im not sure I can make this turn otherwise.

[WraithLord]

Hosting postponed for GotMI by 18 hours. The game will now host at 12:50 GMT on Friday January 28th.

[Executor]

Rlyeh, your foolishness knows no boundaries.
Your intention was to grab my defenseless lands from me while I fight Ermor and Micltan, so as of this turn ALL my resources will be directed only at you. I give Mictlan and Ermor leave to proceed as they wish as you've just became my primary, or should I say only target.
I consider myself reasonable, but I dislike your conduct and your poorly placed aggression so your invading forces shall get an answer soon enough.

You have just ensured that Ermor wins this game.

Good luck to you, you will most certainly need it.
-Jotunheim-

[Numahr]

Don't worry, Rlyeh, Caelum is with you! :up:

[Hadrian_II]

Rlyeh, your foolishness knows no boundaries.
Your intention was to grab my defenseless lands from me while I fight Ermor and Micltan, so as of this turn ALL my resources will be directed only at you. I give Mictlan and Ermor leave to proceed as they wish as you've just became my primary, or should I say only target.
I consider myself reasonable, but I dislike your conduct and your poorly placed aggression so your invading forces shall get an answer soon enough.

You have just ensured that Ermor wins this game.

Good luck to you, you will most certainly need it.
-Jotunheim-

so it seems my invasion force will have to return to the waters, while we will be watching your surrender to ermor.

[WraithLord]

Wow, hold it a sec. brother. Ermor did not win this game, nor did R'lyeh ensure that.

He's doing something reasonable from his standpoint. If his conquest goes well he will have: a- land access b-lot's of lands, c- 1-3 VPs and all relatively easily attacking a nation that (although very strong) is busy on multiple fronts. In addition he will eliminate a very strong nation thus less competition for him to win, esp. after expanding so well.

Also, Ermor doesn't look to expand on the expanse of Jotun lands. All Jotun lands goes back to my allies. Ermor is only interested in ending the threat of the frozen giants with their hordes of vamps, dom push MO, GoH, recruit-able stealthy SCs and 3 VPs.

Ermor wishes for peace only but that can not be while treacherous Pythium goes on plotting and while the blood thirsty giants terrorize the nation and pray on the weak.

Dear allies, some tasks can not be left half done or they will come back to undo you. Once begun this road must be taken to it's very end - total defeat of Jotun.

The enemy's most potent weapon is to divide, scare & threaten us. Don't let that work for if we hesitate we will be the ones losing this war.

[Executor]

And my giants will catch you and smash you against the waves Rlyeh.

Congrats Ermor, you amuse me with your diplomatic skills. Rlyeh just volunteered to sacrifice himself in your honor, much like Micltan did.

It seems everyone is happy in only doing your bidding. I would cherish such thralls if I had them.
I must say it is indeed laughable as how easily you convinced the world not to perceive you as a threat, and even more to join you.

Well, back to killing your minions now, I'll get around to you as well eventually.