SharpAxe (for newbish players)- running

[Groundworm]

Looking for players with around 5 MP games worth of experience (give or take). Newbs are welcome as well.

Early Age
Map: Urraparand
Turns: 24 hour quickhost until request for extension, which will be granted
Hosting: llamaserver
9 players
Mods: CBM 1.6, EDM 1.1
settings: site frequency 50, renaming on, all others default
victory conditions: occupy the capitol provinces of 5 players simultaneously
diplomacy is binding

Make sure your axe is sharp before signing up.

1) Niefelheim- Groundworm
2) Hinnom- mockingbird
3) Fomoria- Drog the Destroyer
4) Caelum- Allium
5) Sauromatia- Ragnars Wolves
6) Arcoscephale- CarlixTomix
7) Lanka- Veraticus
8) Helheim- zultor
9) Mictlan- odeoderok

[mockingbird]

I would like to take Hinnom, please.

[Drog the Destroyer]

Excellent, I was looking for one more game with fairly standard settings. I'd like to join as Fomoria.

[Allium]

I'd like to play as Caelum, please.

Question: for the victory condition, for how long do you have to occupy 5 capitals?

[Groundworm]

Welcome, mockingbird, Drog, and Allium.

Three consecutive turns for capitol occupation? Is that too long?

[Ragnars Wolves]

I will be out of the country until Monday...if you are not going to start till then I would like to play Sauromatia.

If you can't wait I understand...

[CarlixTomix]

I would like to play as Arcoscephale, please.

[Veraticus]

This will be my first game! I'd like to play as Lanka, please.

[Ragnars Wolves]

I have a question...I was playing a practice game last night and the map we are using gives 150% Money. I tested it 4 times and with that extra money Hinnom is a MONSTER. Is there any way to make the money normal so Hinnom is just a little Monster?

[mockingbird]

The map gives 150% money? I had no idea.

I am in favor of normal money settings if possible, and a map switch if not.

If people feel that Hinnom is overpowered, I am also fine with picking a different nation.

[zultor]

I'd like to join. I'll take Helheim.

Thanks

[Allium]

I think that 150% money is just a suggestion, not a property of the map.

[odeoderok]

I'd like to join as Mictlan!

[Groundworm]

The map does mention something about 150% gold, but in my test games I never seemed to have more gold than on any other map. Still, if the general consensus is to change the map, we can do that. I just like the look of Urraparand, and never tried it in MP.

Shall we keep it, or try Land of Milk and Honey?

Also, welcome odeoderok and zultor! That makes the game full. We'll start on Monday 10/13, since that's when Ragnars Wolves will be back. Start designing your pretenders, and I'll post when the game is up on llamaserver.

[Calahan]

Just a quick outsiders comment. The '150% gold income' reference regarding the Urraparrand map is simply the map-makers suggestion of what gold setting to use. The map itself does not boost gold incomes though. So if you use a standard/default income setting of 100, then the map will play just like any other map (with regards gold incomes)

[Drog the Destroyer]

I would prefer normal money settings (100%).

[Ragnars Wolves]

Me too...Map is fine on 100% money

[Groundworm]

All right then, Urraparand on normal gold settings it is.

[Groundworm]

The game is now up on llamaserver, and the game will start once all pretenders have been submitted.

[Ragnars Wolves]

I JUST got nack in town...will get pretender in as soon as I can upack, check messages etc.

Groundworm, and guys....Thanks for waiting.:up:

[Drog the Destroyer]

Game on!

Good luck everybody. Remember that Fomoria is a nation of peace, that wishes for nothing more than tolerance and mutual prosperity. :angel

[Veraticus]

What a coincidence; that's what the hungry blood demons of Lanka want too!

[mockingbird]

Wow, I was so tired yesterday that I did my turn -- and then forgot to send it in. Huzzah for a turn 5 stale!

In other news, I unexpectedly will not have internet access for most of this weekend (Oct 23-24, PST). I would like to request a turn extension, please.

[mockingbird]

Thinking it over, normally I wouldn't do this, but because even one turn can have a large effect in the early game, would it be possible for us to do a turn rollback?

I think it can be done quickly and without too much trouble, but it would be better if people didn't look at their results for this past turn (I haven't) if it is going to happen.

If people object, of course, I withdraw my request.

[Ragnars Wolves]

To roll back if 1 person has sent in his turn is a mess....Check with some of the Vets about it.

[mockingbird]

Obviously we shouldn't do it if it is going to be a colossal pain.

My apologies to all of you for detracting from the game, one way or another.

[Groundworm]

There are pros and cons to rolling back. On the one hand, it could prove technically difficult. It will also affect the other players' turns (if anyone got a worse result of their battles than they had before the rollback, it could be bothersome). I doubt it would seriously affect anyone, though.

And on the other hand, as mockingbird pointed out, a turn 5 stale is suboptimal.

What are other peoples' opinions?

[Drog the Destroyer]

I don't mind a rollback, my turn was rather uneventful.

I do think that if just one player doesn't wan't a rollback, then we shouldn't have one.

[mockingbird]

I've already accepted the issue and moved on with my turn.

Carry on, folks!

[CarlixTomix]

Hi.

This night I have sleeped in one of my friends' house.
I'm not able to send my turn with my computer. If you could postpone the turn one day more... it would be fantastic.But there is no time... I'm going to try something stupid to send me turn.

[Drog the Destroyer]

I think Hellheim and/or Arcoscephale are in danger of stalls this turn. At least for Hellheim this could be a crucial turn, hence I would suggest an extension.

[zultor]

I got my turn in no worries.

[CarlixTomix]

I'm sorry because of my delay.
Well... my computer is dead. ^^U

But... don't worry!
I will send the rest of my turns in the university, before the classes.

Now here are 8:04 AM
My classes start at 8:30

In this period of time I will send my turns.

:D



I hate my computer.




The turn is finished.

[Ragnars Wolves]

I think we have all been there and your dedication to the game is well noted. I think I have said the same (or worse) about my computer a number of times!!

[CarlixTomix]

I have arrived a little later, but I'm now starting to play my turn.


Turn finished. : )

[CarlixTomix]

Downloading and playing my turn...



Finished.

[Drog the Destroyer]

Somethings fishy - Llamaserver is stating that all the files are received, but it's been like that for a while (more than ½ an hour at least, probably much longer) without a new turn starting....

[Groundworm]

Llamaserver gets 'hitches' sometimes, where everyone has submitted their turns but it doesn't generate a new one. They're usually self-limiting and resolve after a few hours.

[CarlixTomix]

Turn finished.

[Ragnars Wolves]

are we on 24 or 48 hour turns?

[Groundworm]

We're on 24 hour turns right now.

I notice that Lanka is no longer on the list of nations in the game, and Veraticus (who is playing Lanka) has neither responded to a PM I sent him 2 days ago, nor has he logged in since the 28th. I'm inclined to find a sub for him. What do the rest of you think?

[Calahan]

I notice that Lanka is no longer on the list of nations in the game, and Veraticus (who is playing Lanka) has neither responded to a PM I sent him 2 days ago, nor has he logged in since the 28th. I'm inclined to find a sub for him. What do the rest of you think?

Just an observers comment. If you check the in-game Pretender list, you will probably see that Lanka are AI (rather than Human). The list of natons that appears on the llamaserver status screen is a list of non-AI nations in the game. So if a nation in the game doesn't appear there, then they are either AI or have been eliminated.

Once a nation is AI, there is no way to un-do the order unless you roll-back the game to the turn the "Become Computer Controlled" order was set. It is of course up to the admin and players whether or not to do that.


The only other thing to do is put the Lanka player on your quitters list. Since he/she has choosen to do the classic "bailing to the AI without asking or giving notice" tactic, which you will see so many players talk hatred and annoyance about on these (and other) forums. As it is one of the most selfish things a player can do in the game, as it can and often does seriously disrupt the balance of games. And maybe think twice in the future about letting him/her play in any games you are playing in or organising.

[Drog the Destroyer]

Sigh, that was the first name in my book of grudges :mad:. It's especially annoying since it was early game and Lanka was in good shape, as far as I can tell.

[Ragnars Wolves]

I guess we take that chance when we are all new and there are some whose attention span may somewhat 'shorter' than others.

How far back was he with us for a roll back? I now understand how someone can REALLY upset the balance of power by just giving up.

Well, what do we want to do, or better yet...what CAN we do?:sick:

[Drog the Destroyer]

We would have to roll back and redo turn 15 if we want to find a Lanka sub.

I guess the options are:

1: Carry on
2: Find a sub and roll-back
3: Re-start from scratch

I can live with all of them, option 2 is probably the best, even though I just won a crucial battle.

[Calahan]

Your stalker here again to say that if you do roll the game back to turn 15, then the llamaserver will automatically use the turn 15 .2h files you sent in when the turn re-hosts. This isn't always obvious, as the status screen will say "Waiting for 2h file" wehn you rollback, but it does still have the .2h files that were sent, so no need to send any in. (and it's actually considered cheating by many if a turn file is sent in during a roll-back)

Only the sub-Lanka player should send in a turn file during the rollback, and then once he/she does send it, the admin should force host the game. After which, things should be back to normal (with the sub-Lanka player in place).

Of course, you need to find a sub for this to even be an option :)


Your stalker out :)

[Drog the Destroyer]

I think we should postpone hosting until we have determined a modus operandi

[GrudgeBringer]

Greetings gentlemen,

Ragnar was just up here telling me of the problem you have with Lanka bolting on you and asked what options you had. Let me give you a couple of options as in your guys situation, it may be a little deeper than you think.

First, Calahan is a VERY capable 'Stalker' as he puts it as well as a formidable player. So make sure you run all this by him if you find something that you would like to do or use.

I looked over your situation and at first glance it would seem easier to find a replacement and roll back just one turn. And in a normal game that would/could be the best option. But you have a game of NEWER players and it may be hard to find a new player that is willing to sub in. That would mean you would have to go with a more vetern player, and at this early part of the game MAY (and I mean 'maybe' not for sure) unbalance it for a couple of players that are his neighbors.

There are a couple of other options avaiable that might meet your needs.

1. See if Helheim (Vultor) who has 3 provinces and is fighting like a trooper it looks like (hats off to you sir, no wanker in you!!) would like to take over Lanka.

You could do 1 of 2 things after that.

1. Find a wily 'ol' vet who will play Helheim out to the end in a kama-kazi setting (they are around, I assure you). THIS could also upset play as it will make it MUCH tougher to knock Helheim out and could deal a blow to the new player who is at war with him.

2. Put Helheim on AI as it is on its way out but you will be handing 2 forts to someone (according to the graphs) that they are at war with.

Of course there is always the third option of playing it out. In my experience usually two or 3 nations will go to war and divvy up the nation (Lanka) quickly so no one has too much of an advantage.

Just some different thoughts on the same options you have. I have seen a Vet come in and really make it rough on those in a noob game. On the other hand, maybe you want a ringer in the mix...a lot of ways to go guys.

Me personally, I would see if the nations around Lanka wanted to divide up his provinces etc and at 3 each isn't that big a deal (providing no one gets greedy and a REAL war breaks out).

(Calahan, is there a way to destroy 1 of the forts if the players would feel handing 2 forts to who Helheim is fighting is too much?)

Don't mean to butt in here, just wanted to give you some stuff to think and talk to Calahan about.

GB

[Groundworm]

First off, thank you to Calahan and GrudgeBringer for the useful advice.

I am not at all against finding a sub for Lanka and rolling back the turn, the only problem is that I'm not exactly sure which turn it was that Lanka went AI. It may not have been as recent as turn 15.

That being said, I'd like to hear more opinions from others in the game (as well as Calahan or GrudgeBringer), as to whether we should find a sub, roll back a turn, and see what happens, or continue on and distribute Lanka's properties as equitably as possible among his neighbors. I also personally think that if Vultor is willing, having him take over for Lanka is an excellent idea.

Groundworm

[mockingbird]

I am in favor of continuing on as much as possible.

[Drog the Destroyer]

I am not at all against finding a sub for Lanka and rolling back the turn, the only problem is that I'm not exactly sure which turn it was that Lanka went AI. It may not have been as recent as turn 15.

I'm looking at the pretender gods option every turn, and turn 16 was the first where Lanka was AI. So i'm quite certain he must have submited that order along with turn 15.

In other news I fear that we may have additional problems, CarlixTomix just went AI in the Trinity game, without notice, while being one of the game leaders. :(

[zultor]

Uh I guess I am Vultor ;)

I am cool with any option the group decides.

I certainly can take over Lanka after a rollback whatever shape it is in. As it has been eluded too my time left in this game as Helheim is short. FYI, you can demolish your own forts.

I am also cool with a rollback and finding another sub or having Lanka stay AI and too the aggressor go the spoils.

[odeoderok]

Hello everybody,

I'm cool with whatever is decided.

[GrudgeBringer]

zultor, I am so sorry about getting your name wrong. I don't know why that name came to mind. I like your attitude about fighting to the end. You will get a lot of offers to play with that mindset, and sometimes people will let you alone knowing you won't quit and will fight tooth and claw to the very end. Good job sir, and good luck with Lanka if you decide to take it. I have never played it but I hear it is a really fun nation.

[Ragnars Wolves]

If Carlix went AI in another game, he may of set this one this turn to AI also.
Let us try and figure out what we can do to salvage this.

Suggestion, Let Helheim become Lanka and destroy 1 fort so whoever takes over the AI doesn't get 2 free forts. Give lanka a time period of a nap of some kind so he can get on his feet and not be attacked (don't use this to attack anyone else!!).

Find a sub for Arco or set it to AI and let the nations around it cut it up...as it isn't that large.

Just suggestions to get it rolling agian...any input would be more than welcome at this time.:doh:

[Allium]

Arco's actually bigger than Lanka right now. I hope we don't need two subs at this point, but having zultor be one of them (either one) sounds good to me. I'm fine with a one-turn rollback.

[Groundworm]

All right, so it sounds like we're mostly in favor of a one-turn rollback and allowing zultor to take over Lanka. That solves one problem, and thank you zultor!

Here's a shot at the second: CarlixTomix, please post here and let us know you're still in the game! Otherwise I'll look for a sub for Arcoscephale.

I'll keep the game delayed until we sort the Arcoscephale issue out.

[Ragnars Wolves]

Might want to allow Zultor to choose Arco or Lanka to take over before you advertise for a sub.

[zultor]

If you need to find a sub let them choose the one they want and I'll take the other one.

[GrudgeBringer]

Sorry wrong game

[GrudgeBringer]

Sorry, wrong game

[Stagger Lee]

Hey guys!

Somewhere between noob and wily vet. I've been playing about a year, and am still awful. But, I have time enough to maybe do something with this. In one of my first games the Lanka player quit by turning AI, and wrecked what had been a very fun game for me. Salvaging your Lanka position may be over my head, but I can try to have some fun with it. And at least Arco will definitely be playable for Zultor with a 1 turn rollback.

[Ragnars Wolves]

It is ok with me, lets get the game back on the road before people lose interest.

Are we rolling back or heading on...

[Groundworm]

I rolled the turn back, because it was the only way to undo Lanka going AI. My apologies for any difficulties this may cause individual nations.

Thank you to Stagger Lee, who has agreed to assume control of Lanka. And thanks as well to zultor, who fought well as Helheim and has agreed to take over for Arcoscephale. My gratitude goes to you both.

zultor, please set Helheim to AI and resubmit your turn. I will put you in control of Arcoscephale starting on turn 16. Stagger Lee, please take your turn as usual. Everyone else: please DO NOT resubmit your turn. Llamaserver still has your turn files, and I'd rather not have people change their actions based on foreknowledge of what happens when the turn cycles. Once Helheim and Lanka have taken their turns, I'll force-host the next turn and we can all play it as normal.

Let me know if you have any questions, and game on!

Groundworm

[Ragnars Wolves]

According to my Dad. it is REAL important you don't change ANYTHING and submit your turn. He said he was in this situation and had a guy that just couldn't get it and they went round and round for over a week.

[Stagger Lee]

Bad news, guys. Lanka is password protected. :(

If anyone has any ideas, I'll try a few. Veraticus didn't work. What did he name his pretender?

[Ragnars Wolves]

GW, E-mail this guy (PM or something check his profile) and see if he will respond. Arrrrggghhh.

BTW, It says I sent in a wrong turn...gonna check it out and delete all files in the Sharpaxe folder and then put in the rolled back file...should work:up:

I tried that...the turn we received saying rollback 15 shows as 16 in my file after deleting the old files and inserting the rolled back 15 turn.

UPDATE...by doing that I have turn 15 on my comp, However it is turn 15 at the START not the finish...so, do we do the turn, not do the turn and count it as a stale or what. I REALLY don't want to stale especially since we rolled back for (maybe) nothing.

What part of DO NOT PUT A PASSWORD ON YOU NATION did he not understand...

I would like some of the others to look at there turn and see if it is at the start or the end. Maybe you can resend me the rolled back turn agian and it will be at the end of the turn.

[mockingbird]

I am beginning to think it may just be easier to restart the game with the current set of (I hope) reliable players. We aren't that far in, after all, and our current issues are likely to taint the course of the game no matter what.

[Ragnars Wolves]

I would say with the start I got that I would have to be against that.

There are other ways to keep going rather than at the first sign of trouble throw our hands in the air and say screw it, let us start over.

What I see is this...

I have my turn set at 15 at the start (not the end of the turn) I am not at war with anyone and other than a few building ajustments (barring a really bad event)I can live with 1 turn that acts like a stale...in fact money and gems still pile up so it isn't THAT bad.

Is there anyone who has a really traumatic turn that can't be helped by a new turn?

It sounds like GW has found the password and Zultor along with Stagger Lee is ready to roll so lets make the best of it and continue.

Even if Lanka has to continue as AI, it is no different than any other game that this happens too. It is not a perfect world and there certainly is never going to be a perfect game. Any of us could have MAJOR family issues (like our friend Calahan) and we would just have to wait or continue depending on the player.

Guys, it is gonna get worse before the game ends...it always does. Those that can stick it out will be the winners and those that can't will try agian, as we never know when Real life will get in the way.

Just my opinion

[odeoderok]

Hi all,

I have a question concerning the rollback. One of my battles had a different result after the rollback. If I don't send new orders, will my turn be stale, since my commanders are in different provinces etc.

[mockingbird]

Hm. I didn't even know that was possible. As for me, the .trn file I was sent after the rollback is identical to the .trn file I originally submitted for turn 15.

[GrudgeBringer]

Are some of you getting starting turns while others are getting where they left off?

Sounds like some have deleted the files and loaded turn 15 that was sent to them...it will NOT be the same as a rollback (from what I understand) but rather as a NEW turn 15. So, unless he rolls it back agian (which I wouldn't unless everyone wanted to), then it looks like Ragnar and anyone else who did that will just have to eat the stale.

Better 1 or 2 guys guy than everyone changing turns I would think (but I am not playing or being affected).

[Stagger Lee]

Nobody is going to stale. If you are looking at a completed, ready to send in turn, please delete the .2h (or move it to some other folder), as it may complicate things down the road. The game builds .2h files on top of existing ones unless there is no existing one, in which case it builds from scratch. There is technically nothing wrong with using the old ones, but should be good form in these cases to cut down on chance conflicts of unit ID #s and such. Llamaserver has your old (previously sent) turns.

Anyone who looked at turn 16 and has a .2h saved for that turn needs to delete it, as that will cause conflicts.

I have tried some variations of sharpaxe and veraticus and will waste no more time with this. Tell me the name of his pretender and I'll try that, but I think you should just move on with the game. Sorry. :cool:

[odeoderok]

Thanks for your replies, maybe I'm confused. I did delete the .2h file though. Checking my email I see turn 16 didn't resolve. So I just play turn 15 again and send that in, right?

[Groundworm]

I am now very confused.

I do not have the password for Lanka, but will send a PM to Veraticus now. As he has not logged in since 10/28, I expect this will be futile.

The way things stand now, we can either continue with Lanka as AI or we can restart. If we restart, we'll need to find new players to replace Arcoscephale and Lanka, and zultor can go back to Helheim.

I realize the restarting option may not be popular, so I'll leave it open to a vote.

If we decide to continue, I am no longer clear what I should do with my current turn files. I submitted a .2h file for turns 15 and 16.

1) what should I do with my current .trn and .2h files?
2) Do I need to resubmit a .2h file for turn 15? Can I just resubmit the same .2h file I have saved in my email to llamaserver?

[zultor]

Since this is a newbie game I don't think we should restart as struggling through this process will probabaly be good for us ;)

This is the first rollback I've been through and am interesting in seeing how it plays out.

As for my situation, I am holding off on resubmitting my turn 15 file setting Helheim to AI until we figure out what is going on. If Lanka is going to be forced to stay AI then why doesn't Stagger Lee simply take over Arcoscephale (hopefully he isn't password protected) and I fight to the death with Helheim?

That's my 2 bits. Please let me know when/if you want me to go AI since as of now I am holding off.

[Allium]

Lanka's pretender was named Staghorn the Blood Druid.

I'd rather continue with one AI nation than restart.

[Ragnars Wolves]

Is there anyone at war besides Helheim and he is a goner anyway...

The question seems to be do we go ahead and redo our turns OR do we just send them in as is and some (as in my case) will act like a stale.

I ask this...is there REALLY any harm this early in redoing the turn since no one is at war, I for the most part am just building so it is just repeating (and hoping not to forget what I was doing). If there is, then lets just get on with it as it is a minor bump in the road for most of us anyway. If we say redo it then lets go ahead and redo it (you have to delete the files in your folder and replae them with the rolled back file, it will show a TRN only, but the 2H file will be there after you do your turn) and try and stay (on our honor...which is the only 'Coins' we have in this game anyway)as close to the origunal move as possible.

The only question I have is do we have Zultor destroy 1 of his forts so we don't hnd it to whoever takes it? I think either way is ok but I am leaning towards letting the person who took the time to fight him have the spoils and both forts.

[Ragnars Wolves]

BTW, if interested there is a new game forming for us medium new guys I put together of the 8 weakest EA nations (I saw a vet game like it and took the same nations off it) It is in the forum if you have time for another game....might be fun without Sauro, Hinnom, Niefl etc.

Anyway, sorry for the shameful plug, but we all seem to be in about 3 games together anyway, so our skill level should be about the same.

[Stagger Lee]

Lanka's pretender was named Staghorn the Blood Druid.

Thanks Allium, but that wasn't it either. I won't sign up for a restart of a newbie game. If you want to switch me to arco I will let zultor know if it is also protected. That position is yours, zultor, if it is available, though. I'd just hate to see you set your own nation AI only to find yourself locked out.

[Stagger Lee]

1) what should I do with my current .trn and .2h files?
2) Do I need to resubmit a .2h file for turn 15? Can I just resubmit the same .2h file I have saved in my email to llamaserver?

Again, nobody will stale turn 15, those .2hs are already in. My best advice is for all of you is to empty the game folder. When you rehost, you will get a new turn 16. Put that in the game folder. Play on. :)

[Ragnars Wolves]

sounds like a good idea....clearing folder now....

[Groundworm]

Acknowledged. Clearing game folder and continuing.

zultor, I think you should set Helheim to AI now. You've put up an admirable fight, but you're at the end of your rope from the look of things. Even if Arcoscephale is password-protected, I don't think any of us are losing that much by having you try to take them over. When the new turn 16 comes in, I'll set you up as Arco.

And again, my thanks to everyone involved in sorting through this fiasco.

Groundworm

[zultor]

I have submitted a new turn for Helheim setting them to AI :(

[Ragnars Wolves]

So, we are NOT redoing turn 15 and it will send turn 16 from where we left off...is that correct?

[Groundworm]

Correct. I will set Lanka to AI and force host the turn tomorrow. I'm waiting until tomorrow to make sure no one has any remaining issues.

If you do have any remaining issues, speak now or forever hold your peace. :)

[Stagger Lee]

Good luck, guys! :)

In Pyrite (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=45456), a player with a large empire and a password got angry and quit without going AI. 30 consecutive stales, and nothing anyone can do about it. At least your guy put in AI orders.

[Ragnars Wolves]

Why do we have 2 people that did thier turns....I thought we where NOT supposed to do anything and it would bring ius right where we were.

Am I wrong?

[Allium]

Helheim has a new turn because zultor set them to AI.

[Ragnars Wolves]

Right, but why did Mictlan send in a new turn also?:confused:

[Groundworm]

Right, but why did Mictlan send in a new turn also?:confused:

Doesn't matter- it is what it is. The turn is resent, I have put zultor in charge of Arcoscephale, and game on!

I hope you haven't let your axes get dull since the last turn!

[mockingbird]

I can report that Mictlan did in fact abuse the rollback for personal gain.

[Groundworm]

I can report that Mictlan did in fact abuse the rollback for personal gain.

Well, then this is entirely different. If Mictlan resent his turn deliberately in order to change the outcome of the last turn (rather than resending it out of ignorance/fear of a stale), then my last post is null and void, as this matters very much.

I have spoken with mockingbird privately, and he provided some details to support his claim. I'd ask that mockingbird post a description in order to publicly substantiate this claim. He also tells me that his enthusiasm for this game has dampened considerably as a result of this, though he will be a good sport and continue playing.

odeoderok, do you have anything to say as to why you resubmitted your turn?

How would we like to proceed?

Groundworm

[mockingbird]

In the old turn 16, I had surprised Mictlan with archer units in the two provinces he was attacking, inflicting heavy losses (many jaguar warriors, a priest king).

In the new turn 16, he avoided attacking one province, instead reinforcing his own defenses with mercenaries, and rejigged his orders in the other province specifically to deal with the archer threat he now knew about (decoys, Fire Archers orders). As a result he was successful in his attack and avoided many casualties that he would have suffered in the other.

I am really disappointed in this unsporting behavior. I don't mind losing (putting up a spirited resistance is fun too), but I prefer to lose fair and square.

[odeoderok]

Hi everybody,

it seems there has been some misunderstanding. I definitely did not intentionally abuse the roll back. It's what I was trying to ask in the thread a few pages back, because I couldn't find turn 16 in my inbox, see my question about commanders being in different provinces after one of our fights ended up going the other way after turn 15.

It was an honest mistake, this is only my second roll-back. Just tell me what you think would be a reasonable "fine", and I'll gladly do it.

Now, out of curiosity, what would have happened to my turn 15 if I hadn't sent in a new turn? In the original turn I lost a fight to Hinnom, and after the roll back I won it, so my commanders and troops did not retreat. Would my turn have been stale if I hadn't sent in orders?

Apologies for all this!

[odeoderok]

Couldn't find an edit button. I of course meant to ask, what would have happened to my turn 16, not 15. And to clarify, my mistake was I assumed turn 16 had not hosted. Would it be a reasonable compensation if I staled this turn, and gave Hinnom back the province I got?

[odeoderok]

Crap,

I also realize I now have the mercenaries someone else had before my cock-up. That's going to affect the game no matter what. I can keep them out of harms way for three turns and not bid on them next time, but that won't change the fact that someone else could have used them. I'm terribly sorry about this mess, I really should have paid more attention.

[Ragnars Wolves]

Those were my merc archers I believe (if I am not confused with another game), I can live without them.

OK, my opinion (for what it is worth)WE all know now how to do a rollback, I think Mictlan in all our noobishness did not do it to intentionally cheat. I think he saw an oppourtunity and took it not knowing better.

I also know that Mockingbird has a legitimate gripe.

Here is wht I would do....

Roll it back agian, EVERYONE clear out thier folder and immediately force host. It should take less than 24 hours if we all jump to it and I think it is worth it as Mockingbird deserves this. It is much better than having him feel cheated of a victory and lose some enthusiasm (as we ALL have been troopers about the problems).

My ONLY question is this....will his turn 16 be the one before or the one now?

[odeoderok]

As i said, I agree to any measures. If we do another rollback and immediate force host, wouldn't it use my new turn though?

And to defend myself a little, I didn't take any opportunities. I'm in three MPs at the moment, and I didn't remember turn 16 had already hosted. But, like I said, I should have paid more attention and am hugely sorry, especially to Mockingbird. I'm all for another roll back, but to make it go right, would I need to find my original .2h file (I think they're still somewhere in gmail) and send that in?

[Drog the Destroyer]

I'm pretty sure that your take is correct and that you would need the original turn 16 file.

Other than that Mr. Wolves was pretty much stating my thoughts.

[mockingbird]

I'm willing to give Odeoderok the benefit of the doubt that it wasn't intentional. The widely different outcome of those two battles before and after the rollback drastically changed the dynamic of our war, however, and I'm honestly not sure how to address that. I do, however, appreciate Odeoderok's offer to try to make amends.

As for rolling back again, I'm not sure I understand the mechanics of a rollback well enough to know if that would fix things. Does the Llamaserver keep old turns around?

I would recommend as good practice saving copies of all your old .trn and .2h files around for every game, just in case something gets messed up or corrupted. It's a little bit of extra work to do, but it can come in handy (as we see here) and also lets one review a whole game retrospectively if so desired.

[odeoderok]

I found my original .2h file in gmail, so I can re-submit that if we do another roll back. I also noticed that the outcome of the battle I originally asked about way back was the same before and after the roll back to turn 15, so I was wrong in the first place as well. I can only say there's no accounting for stupidity :sorry:

[Groundworm]

I appreciate everyone's honesty and integrity in this, as well as Ragnars Wolves' suggestion to roll back again and give odeoderok the chance to use his original turn 15. Thank you for being a great bunch of players!

Since this issue primarily affects mockingbird and the rest of us are using the same turn file anyway, I'm inclined to leave the decision up to him. Provided there are no objections, of course.

So, are there any objections?

mockingbird, how would you like to proceed?

[Ragnars Wolves]

DON'T ANYBODY SUBMIT A TURN iuntil we resolve this please.

[mockingbird]

If rolling back again is possible, then I am in favor of that.

[Ragnars Wolves]

Lets do it...give the word General Groungworm and we will clear are folders in anticipation!!!!!

Mockingbird, that is the choice I would have made also, for what it is worth:up:

[Ragnars Wolves]

Well, everyone else has sent thier turn in so I guess I will also.

[Groundworm]

The vote is in to roll the turn back once more. Are there any objections? If not, I'll roll the turn back (hopefully for the final time) this afternoon.

Let me know.

[zultor]

I don't have a problem with the rollback just a question. Once we rollback again do I need to send in my origional Helheim turn setting it to ai?

[Ragnars Wolves]

File cleared sir, ready:up:

[Groundworm]

I don't have a problem with the rollback just a question. Once we rollback again do I need to send in my origional Helheim turn setting it to ai?

My understanding is that you shouldn't, as you've already sent the turn in, and it's the most recent turn llamaserver has on file for Helheim turn 15. So it should just default to that file and carry out the actions in it, which is "go AI controlled".

I think.

[mockingbird]

Am I correct in understanding that once we do the rollback, the only nation which needs a new turn file is Mictlan (which should be the old turn 15 file before the first rollback)?

[Allium]

That is correct.

[odeoderok]

Yes, I'm ready to send it in as soon as the turn rolls back.

[Ragnars Wolves]

I think we are ready for the rollback

[Groundworm]

I know. Have been busy with work, didn't get a chance to do it until now.

Turn rolled back, will force host once Mictlan resubmits.

[Ragnars Wolves]

So, we don't do anything and wait for the force host to turn 16 if I am correct.

I cleared out my entire Sharpaxe folder as that worked well for me last time.

[odeoderok]

Ok, turn submitted. I hope to God I got it right this time!

[Groundworm]

Thank you, odeoderok. Turn force-hosted, 16 should be incoming any moment.

Hopefully this will be the last turn 16 we need to play!

[mockingbird]

This time it looks correct. Thank you all for your patience and cooperation.

[Ragnars Wolves]

I know this Thanksgiving holiday isn't celebrated anywhere except the USA, but we view it as a time to say thanks for family and friends, and the things we have,whether they be great or small.

I just wanted to wish all of you a Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family:)



(OK, now that is over, let the fighting continue)

[Groundworm]

Two things:

1) At peoples' request, I've extended the turn timer to 48 hours.

2) What are peoples' views on subs honoring or not honoring preexisting NAPs from the original players? Is this bad form, or is it legit?

[GrudgeBringer]

Not knowing all the diplomatic things that went on I would say that the norm is something along these lines.

When a sub takes over either he usually asks for any existing nations that have a diplomatic status (War, Nap, Mutual defense pact etc) to restate thier agreements.

IF, he doesn't then I would think that the person who has any of those agreements, would surely let the new player know.

I personally don't think if no one has said anything to each other that you can hold them to an agreement that they didn't know about. That could be construed as 'waiting to see what happens so you could keep options open' or something similar to that I guess.


Not my game, but we had that same situation happen more than once and that was the concensus in some other games. I guess if you would ask 10 people you would get about 4 different answers.

NOW, if he knew about them in no uncetain terms, that is a different ballgame and all should be held accountable. Is this a game where Naps are honered, or one that you make them at your own risk. Since it is a Noob game, I would think that most would say they should be honored.....agian, this is ONLY an opinion as it isn't my game. I just was reading forums as I was bored.

[Drog the Destroyer]

My 2 cents.

If he didn't confirm the preexisting NAPs, I think it's legit.

[Drog the Destroyer]

I would like an extension of the turn over christmas, if it was due the 28th it would be perfect.

Thanks in advance and merry christmas

Drog

[Groundworm]

Extension granted until 12/28. Happy holidays!

[Ragnars Wolves]

Gentlemen,

We all seem to be in most of the same games, and they are getting to the end game stage. Does anybody else agree that perhaps this game can be moved to 72 hour turns, at the least 60. Raw Recruits is taking a massive amount of time as is this one. I am having a problem just getting this turn in in as I just noticed it was due in 8 more hours as I have to work tonight. Extensions are getting tedious for some players i would think.

Opinions?

[Allium]

Fine with me.

[Groundworm]

I have no objection. I'll extend the turn timer to 72 hours and delay this turn so that Ragnars can complete it.

[Groundworm]

Sub needed for Sauromatia. The player of Sauromatia (Ragnars Wolves) has had an unfortunate series of real-life events that have pulled him immediately and indefinitely away from Dominions.

As far as I can tell, Sauromatia is in a very good position, ranking close to the top or on top in province count, dominion, research, and gem production. The game is in turn 56 and is at end-midgame to late game. To my knowledge, Sauromatia currently has good relations with all other nations. You would be subbing into a position of strength, though the game is still very competitive.

Please PM me and let me know if interested.

Groundworm

[Groundworm]

Found a sub- welcome rabelais, the new pretender of Sauromatia! Thanks for subbing, rabelais, and welcome to the game!

[rabelais]

Trying to get in touch with the original player, but if you all would send me ingame (or pm) diplo status summaries it would make things a lot easier, esp as ragnars has his hands full otherwise.

Ok going to look at the turn

[Allium]

Welcome, rabelais, and thanks for subbing!

[rabelais]

what do you folks want to do about the error? hope against hope it was a llamaserver timing snafu that bollixed someones .2h?

[Allium]

It seems to be a general llamaserver problem, I guess for now we just wait until it's fixed:
Yes - very sorry all, something has happened to the internet at my house, and I'm away this weekend so can't go and check it. It seems to have partially recovered - it is now checking e-mail, but still not hosting turns and it won't let me log in to look at what's happening.
Aaargh, tried to fix it too fast, was at home for about 2 minutes and tried to fix it and caused a disaster. Infuriatingly our ISP have changed all our settings so I can't log in remotely.

I have just asked my housemate to turn it off at the wall. I am at home properly tomorrow and will fix it then. Very sorry everyone for the inconvenience. :(

[rabelais]

Yeah, I found that out after I posted. decided not to call myself an idiot and deny someone else the pleasure. :)

[Groundworm]

I've needed to extend the turn timer for the last few turns. Do we need to go up to 4 day hosting time?

[rabelais]

I think it wouldn't be a bad idea, but I'm the new guy, so I'll let the Old Guard decide.

[Allium]

I'm okay with it.

[Allium]

With increasing the turn timer, I mean.

[Groundworm]

Right, that's 3 out of 5, majority rules. Turn timer will be extended to 96 hours effective next turn.

[rabelais]

Kinda awkward at this stage, but had a death in the family and I think my position, as badly as I have played it would be better in anothers hands.

Will do my best to keep up, but won't have much computer access for a few weeks. just when I had actually started to fight too.

[Groundworm]

Sorry, just saw the last post. I'm sorry to hear about the death in your family, rabelais, and I hope everything is going as well as possible.

So, with Sauromatia out, that basically leaves... me and Caelum, with roughly equal chances of winning the game, I'd say. Allium, I don't know how easy it would be to find a sub for Sauromatia at this point; it would be a large investment of time for someone to take over a non-dominant position.

I'm willing to declare the game over, and call it a dual victory. Or we can fight it out. What do you think?

[mockingbird]

If you want to keep going, the IRC channel is a good place to find a sub.

[Allium]

Having conceded one super-long slugfest already, I'd like to see what happens in this one for a few turns more at least.

[mockingbird]

I'm also willing to sub for Sauromatia myself. I really have no idea what's been happening outside of my capitol for the last 20 turns or more, so I don't think I have any unfair information about the game.

[Groundworm]

mockingbird raises a good point... I don't think he has any undue information about what's going on in the rest of the world.

Having him sub for Sauromatia sounds like an excellent solution. What do you think, Allium?

[Allium]

Fine with me.

[mockingbird]

Then an admin should send me the turn file. :)

In the unlikely event that Hinnom is still alive next turn, I will set it to AI.

[Groundworm]

Turn sent, mockingbird. Welcome (back) to the game!

rabelais, if you could give mockingbird any information on your current situation, it would be much appreciated.

[mockingbird]

I took a brief look at the turn. It's a pretty complicated situation. It will take me a few days to get up to speed.

Since Rabelais understandably may not be free to give me a full update, I would appreciate any information I should know from the other players -- things like the current diplomatic situation, who owns which unique items and creatures, and so forth.

Thanks!

[mockingbird]

I have not heard a peep from Rabelais.

I think I have a decent handle on the position now, but I do need at least some information about the state of the game to make decisions.

Please let me know.

[mockingbird]

The turn needs to be extended ASAP so I can have time to learn and do stuff.

[Groundworm]

Sorry, I've been distracted and working for the past few days. I will continue extending the turns as needed.

mockingbird, feel free to PM me to discuss the current diplomacy between Sauromatia and Niefelheim. Please do not listen to the propaganda of the eagle men.

[Groundworm]

Congratulations to Allium (Caelum) on winning by holding the requisite number of victory points!

Unless anyone objects, I shall declare this game finished, and Allium is the victor!