A newbie asks...

[JonBrave]

OK, so (if I may), here are some random complete newb questions which occur to me. I shall add the odd one as I go.


When I tell it to generate a small world (a dozen or so provinces, 1 AI opponent) it takes like 5 minutes to complete. Now, I acknowledge I only have 1Gb of RAM and a CPU that's pretty old, but even so... Civ can make a whole world in fraction of the time. OOI, what in the world is it actually doing that could even begin to take that long??
When in Battle View, could moving the mouse to the edge of the screen please scroll? I thought I had seen something saying it did this, but I admit it is not listed in the short cuts.
In battles, I'm a little confused about casting distance. Do I have to move my casters to the enemy and/or with my troops so as to get them close to enemy/keep up with my guys for effectiveness? If so with what order?


That'll do for now, 'coz it's my first post :)

[Foodstamp]

Jon,

Welcome to Dominions!

1. The map generation in Dominions is completely processor based. If you have a multicore processor, it will only use one core, and it is uses as much of the processor as it can get it's hands on. Same thing for turn generation.

2. I don't think this is possible. I have always used the arrow keys.

3. Most spells have limited range. You can position your mages closer to the front to cast certain spells, just be aware that it leaves them exposed to enemy magic, flanking and arrows. You can script a mage to attack for a round to move closer to the front line as well. You can also script certain spells towards the end of your script so they fire off when the enemy closes in with your army.

Goodluck!

[Muse]

When in Battle View, could moving the mouse to the edge of the screen please scroll? I thought I had seen something saying it did this, but I admit it is not listed in the short cuts.

2. I don't think this is possible. I have always used the arrow keys.

Holding the middle mouse button (Mouse 3) and moving the mouse will scroll the screen.

Page Up and Page Down will change the height of the camera.

[JonBrave]

When in Battle View, could moving the mouse to the edge of the screen please scroll? I thought I had seen something saying it did this, but I admit it is not listed in the short cuts.

2. I don't think this is possible. I have always used the arrow keys.

Holding the middle mouse button (Mouse 3) and moving the mouse will scroll the screen.

Page Up and Page Down will change the height of the camera.

M3 sounds great. Unfortunately, I am on a laptop with touchpad. I believe there is some way of "M3-ing", but I think you need 3 hands. To then move the mouse would require a foot. :D Do Shrapnel supply a middle-button for laptop owners?

[JonBrave]

OK, so now I besiege a fortress. After X turns I get announcement that "wall has been breached and you can now storm" or similar. So I do storm. Unfortunately, my besiegers were archers with existing "fire" orders. They stood around outside a lot. Ho-hum :o


Could I just have maintained the siege longer and the occupants would have surrendered/weakened?
The "breach" just seemed to be the main gate was open/gone. I had expected bigger damage or even no walls! Was that it? If I hadn't waited/besieged at all, I suppose there would have been a gate with hitpoints I'd have had to break down?
Looks to me like you just want melee troops for storming?

[thejeff]

The sieging/storming mechanics are pretty simplified.

You can't storm until the wall has been breached. Which essentially means the gate is down and there is a way in. The size of the entry depends on the fort you're storming.

What you want once you attack depends on your strategy. Archers are at a penalty trying to shoot anyone behind the walls, but I've had luck holding back and letting his troops come out to attack me. If he has mostly mages and archers then you really want fast melee troops to get in and reach them.

[Fantomen]

Flyers are good, flies over the walls. Tramplers or thugs or other units that dish out lots of damage quickly are good to get you through the gate. Making the enemy rout works as well, with spells like panic or terror.

If you are uncertain of storming successfully Just staying on siege may weaken the defenders if they have supply problems, or on a grander scale if that fort is important for recruitment or income. Like sieging a capital can be strategically sound even if you are unable to breach the walls, just to deny capital only mage recruitment and gold.

On the flip side mages inside a sieged fort can still cast summoning rituals and the like (if there is a lab), so the defending army may very well grow stronger during the siege.

[fantasma]

Are you sure it matters what fort you storm? I thought the entrance was always the same, two squares path, or the like. I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm just curious that I never noticed.

[WingedDog]

fantasma
Yes, it really depends on fort type. Some forts have large breaches, some small.

[Gandalf Parker]

To answer one of your questions... You can just maintain the siege. You can tax to the extreme, blood hunt for slaves, pillage, do all kinds of things. And preach. Eventually you can starve whoever is inside. And if there is a pretender you can "domkill" it by pushing your own dominion by preaching (replace all the red candles with whilte candles to remove his power). Every once in awhile you can use a cheap commander such as a scout to attack the people inside just to get a peek at who is left and in what condition

[Kobal2]

In battles, I'm a little confused about casting distance. Do I have to move my casters to the enemy and/or with my troops so as to get them close to enemy/keep up with my guys for effectiveness? If so with what order ?


If I'm not mistaken, the starting "no man's land" between two armies is 20 squares, give or take 5 (although it might be a bit more with larger armies). At least, that's what I base my calculations when futzing around the planning to determine where to set up my clumps of soldiers to get the first strike in.

I also believe one square on the battle planner = 1 square on the battlemap, so moving your mage all the way to the back adds a lot of range to cover. It's all right if your army is set to hold and attack and the enemy isn't, since they'll be coming in range by themselves, but against a human you probably can't count on it since they'll be buffing their army too... bottomline is : check the range of the attack spells you've got and that mage can use. Some (like mind burn) have 100 range and will essentially hit no matter what, some (like fireball) have a range listed as "35+" which means the range is 35 for a mage that has just the requisite paths to cast it, but more skill in the primary magic path equals more range, and finally some like Iron Darts have a fixed range that you have to plan for. If there are no enemies in that range, then the caster will go off script, with sometimes hilarious or frustrating consequences. Especially if the mage has the paths to cast Touch of Madness, which the AI seems to love to cast on other mages for some reason.

Same thing about buffs, by the by. If you absolutely need that mage to land that buff on these guys rather than those, it's best to place the mage so that it's in range of the former and no one else, otherwise they will throw the buff on the bigger group of soldiers, even if it makes less sense. Magic seems to do something to addle their brains, 'till they figure buffing a clump of shortbowmen with Strength of Giants is clearly more useful than my Steel Warriors going giant huntin' :rolleyes:.

Yes, it's a bit of a pain in the nethers, but Dominions lives and dies by micromanagement :D

If a spell has too short a range and you need the mage to come closer to the fray to cast it, you can script him to "Attack one turn", then cast it - but be careful there. You don't want him to move further than his infantry screen, so do check whether or not he's faster than your frontline, or how many squares the frontline will have moved forward by the time he gets to that order. And definitely don't do that if the mage is a flyer, cause he'll go straight to melee.

[JonBrave]

So now I'm trying to storm this castle, this time with melee troops ;)

Castle wall breached. His God/Leader comes plonks himself in the gateway. My melee guys stack up trying to hit him and get through, only front guys can hit. He is "ethereal", so I think what is happening is nothing, because I can't hit him, at least mostly. Over time his archers etc. ruin my army. What exactly do I need for "magic weapons" it talks about --- I don't think I have any....

[Kadelake]

Magical weapons are very rare on recruitable troops (except for Caelum, most of their troops have magical weapons). They are quite common on summoned units, though.
If you forge magical weapons and give them to your commanders they (of course) counts as magical weapons.
If you have sacred melee units and a fire 9 bless, that would give them a magical fire attack.
The fire spell flaming arrows makes your archers do bonus fire damage as well as counting as magical weapons.
Maybe the easiest way is using your mages against his pretender? Does he have 100% resistance to lightning/fire/cold? If not, that might be a good way to attack.

The two most common ways to deal with super combatants is to forge magical items and hand it to some good commanders (if you have access to a suitable chassis) or mages.

[thejeff]

Congratulations. You've just run into an SC. (Or at least the AI's attempt at one.)

Ethereal means normal weapons have a 75% chance of having no effect. Depending on what his god is, what buffs he's cast and what he's wearing he's probably got enough protection to stop most of the rest of the hits.

Some nations have troops, usually elite troops with magic weapons. If you click on the weapon name it will tell you. Caelum's ice weaponry is one example. Most nations don't. In most cases, magic weapon means a forged weapon. Have your mages forge a weapon or two, hand them to a tough commander, maybe a summoned one, and have him go whale on the god for awhile.

The other alternative is magic. Most combat spells do magical damage and will work just fine on an ethereal target.


Edit: Ninjas are good too. They don't have magic weapons, but they'll sneak up and explain them while you're typing.

[JonBrave]

I know I'm a newb, so please excuse.

I am playing MA Man (no magic weapons), my mages are nature & air, which seems to give them good protection but no damage spells, AFAICS. (Even then, wouldn't chances be they aimed their damage spells at his other units anyway? Or even hit my own in the densely packed area?) He only has his capital province left (small map, one AI opponent, normal). Even at 75% miss/25% hit my melee troops would have been enough, but because of the congestion at the castle gate (with ethereal guy blocking it) I can only get in about 3 hits per turn, with all the other troops blocked behind (tried hold & attack, still it ends up like this). I just wanna finish this game! :eek:

[thejeff]

Air has lightning spells (Lightning bolt, Orb Lightning and Thunderbolt), which are very nice since they're AN. Nature doesn't have a lot of direct damage spells. Some AoE poison, but that'll do as much or more to your own troops.

If he's the biggest and closest target, chances are good that he'll get targeted. You will take some collateral damage. Try casting Aim or Eagle Eyes on your mages first (Or just cast Wind Guide)

Or forge some weapons for your Lord Wardens.

[JonBrave]

OK, I got some kind of volunteer knight guy. Kitted him out with weapons (though I think he got killed early anyway :( ) Gave him a half-dozen Avalon-knight people. Put them way up front on their own, with immediate attack. Rest army behind. Anyways, they got in the breach, and (doubtless together with having half-starved occupants with long siege), and then rest came up...

So I won my fisrt game :D ...........

[Loren]

I know I'm a newb, so please excuse.

I am playing MA Man (no magic weapons), my mages are nature & air, which seems to give them good protection but no damage spells, AFAICS. (Even then, wouldn't chances be they aimed their damage spells at his other units anyway? Or even hit my own in the densely packed area?) He only has his capital province left (small map, one AI opponent, normal). Even at 75% miss/25% hit my melee troops would have been enough, but because of the congestion at the castle gate (with ethereal guy blocking it) I can only get in about 3 hits per turn, with all the other troops blocked behind (tried hold & attack, still it ends up like this). I just wanna finish this game! :eek:

In this case I wouldn't try to fight the guy. Simply continue the siege and build temples. Crush his candles and he's dead without a fight.

[Jack_Trowell]

Note about Man: I think that the alicorn attack of the Knights of Avalon count as a magic attack

[JonBrave]

Some quickies. My guys cast a lot of "Bless" & "Sermon of Courage"s.


Do you need to cast these more than once on a target?
If not, does the computer play-out know that?
Does my priest-guy need to be close to the target to affect it? Am I supposed to pre-lay-out all my priests so as to be near a variety of recipients? (I have a feeling some groups are getting them multiple times and other groups not at all.)

[thejeff]

No, Yes and Yes.

Both spells have ranges and AoE. The AI won't cast the spells once everyone within range has the effect. The AoE spreads out randomly and will overlap, so some targets will be covered more than once, but the intent is always to cast on someone who doesn't have the effect already.

If your troops are spread out and you want them all affected, you should spread the priests out as well.

[Bananadine]

Some quickies. My guys cast a lot of "Bless" & "Sermon of Courage"s.

If they're priests but they don't have any magic skill, then one reason why they're pounding on those "spells" so much is that they don't know what else to do. Heck, a non-mage, non-priest commander will do even less, unless you specifically order it to attack or flee or something. Standing around is a commander's job, sometimes. But priests like to talk a lot while they're standing around. :)

[thejeff]

Actually if they're just priests, you'll notice that they will eventually bless/sermon everyone who can be blessed and will head up to the front lines to be killed. (Actually to "stay behind troops")

This can be useful. When I'm blessing sacreds with an H1, if he's missed some when they go charging off to the front, he'll chase and try to bless them once he's in range.

[krpeters]

So now I'm trying to storm this castle, this time with melee troops ;)

Castle wall breached. His God/Leader comes plonks himself in the gateway. My melee guys stack up trying to hit him and get through, only front guys can hit. He is "ethereal", so I think what is happening is nothing, because I can't hit him, at least mostly. Over time his archers etc. ruin my army. What exactly do I need for "magic weapons" it talks about --- I don't think I have any....

In my experience, the best way to take care of a Pretender holed up in his capital is to domkill him. Park a medium army to trap him, take all his other territories, then pile on priests to preach. When he runs out of dominion, he vanishes, and you can take the empty castle.

Domkill takes a while, but if you have the time... and sitting on his capital gives you a lot of breathing room :)

[thejeff]

That's really only necessary for the toughest of Pretenders. Just get a look at what he's got - send in a scout or commander set to retreat, then figure out how to take him.
In this case it sounds like magic weapons were enough.

Otherwise see what elemental resistances he's missing and script single target long range spells against those. Or spam MR spells at him, the AI rarely boosts MR enough. Enough Soul Slays will kill even a 20+ god.

[JonBrave]

Just to say, you guys are brilliant, this stuff makes sense, ty ...

[JonBrave]

OK, so let me get this right. Spells have a maximum distance, plus within that they are likely to be less accurate the farther the distance, right? (Based on precision, except 100% precision never misses(?)) So if distance matters, I can either order mages forward, or I can wait and eventually he might go forward anyway.

[thejeff]

Yes. The ranges are different for different spells, listed in their description, as is their precision modifier.

Mages set to cast spells will only move forward - more accurately default to "Stay Behind Troops" - when they have no valid spells to cast. Once you've got a bit of research done, they'll usually find something to cast: buffs, chaff summons, useless attack spells, something. Only in the very early game when their spellbook is vary limited do they run out. H1 & H2 priests run out of options pretty quickly. Blood mages without slaves can do so as well.

So relying on them to advance is not very useful. Ordering them to move forward is also risky. You don't want them ahead of their blockers or advancing into melee. Probably more important, you've only got 5 script slots. Wasting one on movement means you're one spell closer to the AI wasting fatigue on useless spells. You really want to position your mages at the start where they'll be most effective.

Besides, the ideal situation much of the time is to let them come to you. If you can arrange it so the front lines are clashing within range of your mages and out of range of his, that's perfect. In SP, if I'm not relying on fast elites, sacred cavalry or the like, I'll often position everyone at the back on hold and attack and let the mages buff for a couple rounds before switching to offense.

[JonBrave]

Perfectly understood, thank you!

Let's try another one. I'm a very lazy newb, so all that setting orders is tedious (even with keys). Mages aside, which/are there any troop/priest types I can afford to leave on "no orders" (playing against AI), and the computer will do something pretty reasonable for me? E.g. you might say archers or melees are OK left to auto-ordering? Or do they just sit on their butts?

[Kobal2]

By default, archers will "fire closest", pure melee infantry will "attack closest" and hybrid infantry (like Ermor infantry which carry a couple javelins) will "shoot closest" then switch to "attack closest" when the javelins are gone.

H1 and H2 priests will Bless any sacred in range first (including themselves, and even if your God doesn't have magic paths to bless with), then Sermon the rest, then Stay Behind Troops. H3+ will throw Divine Vengeance on themselves first, and Smite instead of SBT. All priests will automatically Banish undead and demons if they get the opportunity. Commanders without any magic will Stay Behind Troops by default I think.

Mages are a complete crapshoot. You can rely on them to cast buff on troops who don't need them, get in a coma from buffing themselves with miscellaneous crap, throwing AoE spells at chaff your own troops would kill without effort (with the friendly fire that comes with that), or to use single-target spells at the closest chaff rather than the big hulking SCs further back.

So, even without you setting orders or shifting positions around, no, your troops won't just sit on their asses with a puzzled look in their eyes. They'll just perform as well as PD and most AI armies, which is not very well at all.

[thejeff]

I'd say that H2 priests semi-randomly decide to bless or Sermon. Maybe depending on how many sacred troops will be blessed vs how many can be morale boosted.

Both H1 & H2 may also choose to banish rather than bless if there are enemy undead within range. This can be good if you don't have a bless or bad if your expensive sacreds get slaughtered while the priests try to stop the one commander with a skeleton earring.

I'd say always script the commanders. Mages take some work. Priests and non-mage commanders are easy. You're pretty much going to always want the same orders, so just pick a number key and always put them there.

[Jarkko]

Commanders without any magic will Stay Behind Troops by default I think.

I am pretty sure they have Attack Closest. It's not once or twice I've lost a commander who I forgot to script, and they then did proceed to run amok towards the enemy while friendly troops had Hold&Attack... :doh:

[LDiCesare]

Commanders without orders Stay behind troops. When there are no troops left, they attack closest. It's strange you got some charging, because most of the time I forget to give orders to indy commanders and they absolutely always stay behind troops.

[Edi]

Commanders without orders Stay behind troops. When there are no troops left, they attack closest. It's strange you got some charging, because most of the time I forget to give orders to indy commanders and they absolutely always stay behind troops.

If they can't get through the press of the infantry ahead of them, they will mill behind the horde, making it seem as if they were staying behind the troops.

Just try and put them alone in the center with infantry on the wings and maybe a few scattered around the front. To make sure of your test, try it with a mounted commander leading infantry.

In the absence of orders, they attack. This has been my experience 100% of the time.

[LDiCesare]

I tried the following:
7 commanders in the center with 120+ units on the sides and rear:
First thing the commanders do is move backwards. Stay behind troops.
Repeated the test with units on the side, not on the rear, and one commander in the front:
Same thing. Stay behind troops.

I consistently and always get a Stay behind troops behavior (except for mages who cast spells).
I tried with and without mages, mounted, chariot and on foot, with several squads and only one squad on the sides and/or behind, commander in front and in the middle.
I never saw a commander without orders attack when he had troops to lead (except for the usual stuff like being the last fighter, having only one soldier left, going berserk etc.).

[Kobal2]

I never saw a commander without orders attack when he had troops to lead (except for the usual stuff like being the last fighter, having only one soldier left, going berserk etc.).

That could be the crux of the issue. Many players bring any number of indie commanders along with their armies, both as insurance against remote attacks and to get someone to ferry the troops in case the primary troop carriers snuff it. These commanders have no troops, no equipment, no nothing, they're just *there*.

In that particular case, they could default to attacking instead of hiding I suppose.

[thejeff]

Yeah, I don't normally contradict Edi, but he's wrong here.
I don't know how he's getting those results, but I just watched both standard and mounted indy commanders run from the center to the rearmost troops and then stay behind the last poor crippled one as he headed for the front lines.
Near as I can tell as long as there are troops on the field, unscripted non-casters will stay behind them. Usually they wind up behind archers.

The only thing that doesn't count is bodyguards. Any troops on guard commander seem to be ignored. Probably to prevent everyone from just hiding behind everyone else.


Whether those commanders personally have squads assigned to them doesn't matter. Troops on the field are all that counts. I've even seen commanders head from the front lines back to the rear to stay behind one newly summoned Soulless.

[Edi]

Hmm, could be I've not been paying enough attention and I do sometimes have extra commanders. Wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong about something. If you guys have tested it, I'll accept those results.

[krpeters]

On the subject of commanders behaving badly, this is the funniest result I've seen:

Playing Arcosephale, I set my commander to "stay behind troops". My elephants attack, get chomped, rout. They crash through my lines, but I've intelligently placed my commander off to the side so he doesn't get trampled.

Next turn my commander decides to move "behind" my elephants.

*trample* dead commander my entire army routs :)

I've found that setting commanders to "holdholdholdholdholdstaybehindtroops" keeps the commander in the back where you want him rather than charging with the front line.

[thejeff]

The other thing that works particularly well when your trying to avoid elephant stomp is a handful of archers off to the side. They'll stay put and your commanders will stay behind them.

[Gandalf Parker]

Yes formations can often help the problems being discussed.
And scripting. I also often use hold, hold, hold, hold, hold, stay behind for many of my commanders. Using the Ctrl-# to record the script and then # to assign it to new commanders can be very useful.

Its a good idea to spread out your commanders and mages so that they arent susceptable to one big destruction.

Often with larger armies I have at least one dumb little indept commander mostly there to get more troops in place so I like to have at least one of those in the far back corner with hold commands.

[JonBrave]

Using the Ctrl-# to record the script and then # to assign it to new commanders can be very useful.


So would be: right-click, Copy, then right-click, Paste. For newbs at least. Given that we're in 2010. Even in 2006. :)

And while I'm at it, for goodness sake, in battle view mouse-off-to-left-or-right-of-screen-scrolls is pretty basic. ;)

[Gandalf Parker]

Using the Ctrl-# to record the script and then # to assign it to new commanders can be very useful.


So would be: right-click, Copy, then right-click, Paste. For newbs at least. Given that we're in 2010. Even in 2006. :)

And while I'm at it, for goodness sake, in battle view mouse-off-to-left-or-right-of-screen-scrolls is pretty basic. ;)
Umm.. I dont think those work in this game.
I think those are Windows things.

[JonBrave]

Yes, they are Windows things. No, they don't work. They only have to be alternatives. Makes all the difference if you'd like to enlarge your audience. Back in the day, I too used to love going "ls -lR", but things move on... :)

[Gandalf Parker]

Exactly. Things move on. If the "2006" was a crack then you missed the mark. It would have been more like 2000.

Rewriting the UI for some cross-compatable library would be mean a lot of redoing of old territory. Not very likely. You will need to wait for the new project they are working on now to hope for such things. (and no its not a Dom4)

[JonBrave]

2006 was when I understood Dom 3 was released. I only just purchased now.

So back to the theme: my random questions! Sacred units seem to rule, because apart from being blessable, they only cost 1/2 to support/maintain (does it show their stats with or without that?), right? And I can only build those in my capital. So I ought keep churning them out if I possibly can?

[Gandalf Parker]

2000 was more like the original Dominions. The rest is all based off the same code. Pretty amazing expansion off a game started on an Atari in GFX-BASIC. Then Unix and C, then Linux and C++. Its only ported to Windows and Mac

Not all sacreds are capital only. Some nations get sacreds anywhere. The "capital only" is decided by the magic sites your capital has. The units that are given to you by those sites are capital only

[thejeff]

Except that with Copy/Paste, you've got 1 slot. With the current system, you've got 10. Far more useful.

Some nations have recruit everywhere sacreds.

Sacred units rule if you've got the right bless. They get half upkeep cost, but they also tend to be much more expensive. I'd say that most sacreds aren't worth buying without a strong bless, some aren't worth taking a strong bless for and a few are worth it either way.

The upkeep cost is rarely the deciding factor for troops. It's much more important for research mages.

[Kobal2]

Whether or not churning cap only sacreds every turn rain or shine is worth it depends very much on their nature, and your bless.
If they're really kick-butt and your bless will let them be effective all the way to the endgame (like Living Pillars or Palashankas), then yeah, I'd churn them day in, day out (gold providing).

If it's something like an Eagle Warrior or Ulm's Steel Warriors, probably not as they'll be either made obsolete by summons or impractical to leverage down the road. They're a boon for early expansion but after that, meh. I'd rather that gold went into castles, mages and labs than going into the recruitment and upkeep of stuff that won't help me reliably.

[JonBrave]

Next random question, if I may.

I don't really "see" PD? I tend to buy 20. Are they there immediately, but I can't see them unless attacked, and then only in battle? Do they slowly "develop" --- occasionally I've seen a few odd units apear that I don't recall building, I think, but never like 20. If I take those out, am I taking the PD I bought? Does it regrow? That kind of thing... ? :)

[Kobal2]

Yes, PD appears immediately as you buy it. More buying, more units, effective immediately. You cannot see it outside of battle (the manual tells you what nations gets what units though), nor can you take units from it or move it around or get your money back in any way. MA Tien Chi also gains points of PD overtime as a side effect of its dominion, but it's a really marginal increase.

The PD soldiers replenish automatically to full at the end of the battle if you win it.

Not sure what you're talking about re: "a few odd units that I don't recall building", but it's not PD. Some commanders automatically generate troops around them though - for example, the Celestial General creates human soldiers wherever he goes, the Vampire Queen summons vampires once in a blue moon etc... It's usually mentioned in the unit's flavour text.

[Gandalf Parker]

Province Defence is militia. They are the farmers and bakers and blacksmiths running out to defend their province. They are untrained, no formations, rabble that charges the enemy. They dont show up because they arent an "army" until attacked. And even then they arent much of one.

But they can hold off many events. They can spot scouts and spies and seducers and assassins moving thru your area. They dont need monthly upkeep charges. And they dont get used up as long as you own the province no matter how many times they fight.

Always get at least one point in PD. That gives you a commander that can at least tell you who attacked if someone takes the province from you. Otherwise you get no report.

[Bananadine]

One time I took over half a guy's nation with scouts. He was mad

[thejeff]

You see them only in battle. They're there as soon as you pay for them and will return in every battle. You'll never see them on the overland map, you can't put them in regular armies and take them away.

The few odd units may have fled from other battles?

[JonBrave]

As ever, thanks, much clearer! I suspect the random units are down to any number of possible mental oversights :) But clearly not PD.

So if I win a battle in my PD province, my PD is straight back to whatever I bought. If I lose --- or the AI loses against me --- do I assume the "province winning" power inherits PD back at 0?

[Gandalf Parker]

Yes, if someone wins a province it wipes out PD and Temples. Those are considered to be loyal to your pretender.
If you are going to lose a province and want to "salt the earth" (deny them resources) then castles, labs, population, and peace (unrest) have to be destroyed manually by you before you leave.

[JonBrave]

Gandalf, do you ever sleep? Are you ever not here? :)

[Kobal2]

Yeah, the equation is fairly simple : if after the battle, you still own the province, PD is immediately back to full. This happens even if that province takes multiple successive attacks BTW - PD will replenish in between each fight.

If at the end of the battle, someone else owns the province, PD is set back to 0 for everyone - the loser won't get back his PD by retaking the province, either. So if for instance you teleport a guy in, wipe the PD, then your thug gets bumped off by an invading army moving in the province in the same turn, your opponent will have kept his province but lost all the PD.
Which is why few people invest too much into it generally, since a decent raiding party can cost you all that sunk investment.

General rules*: 1 sees off non-giant scout takeovers, 5 takes care of single casts of call of the wind / arouse hunger / call of the wild, 10 will catch a scout sneaking around once a decade and 15 will usually resist random barbarian attacks and the like which can be handy if you've got high misfortune scales.

Anything above that is probably a waste for general purposes, although dropping some quick PD just before a major defensive battle can be sensible if you have spare change and the additional soldiers won't be a liability.

*Disclaimer: these numbers are general values provided for information purposes only and the exact thresholds vary in practice depending on the soldiers your PD gives you. Your mileage may vary. By purchasing this PD you implicitly accept that it will suck, as well as any and all consequences of such suckage. Do not feed your PD after midnight. Warranty void if removed. If your PD lasts for more than 4 hours, consult a physician.

[thejeff]

Dropping the quick PD in before a battle can be especially good if you can teleport a few mages in, but can't get any troops for them to hide behind.

They may be able to buff the PD to a useful level or they may just be able to rain destruction from behind disposable meat-shields.

[sector24]

PD is available instantly, but never moves and only defends the province it is built in. It's not a "unit" and has no upkeep, it's just static defense that joins the battle if you are attacked.

[LDiCesare]

PD values vary vastly per nation. A 20 PD is not a bad idea for Abysia, but it's certainly a very bad idea for Machaka for instance.

[Redeyes]

Often PDs can be actively detiremental, if the weaker troops in the PD causes your elite troops or thugs to rout.

[Gandalf Parker]

Gandalf, do you ever sleep? Are you ever not here? :)
That used to be true, but then they stopped paying me.

Now its more like 1-2 days on, and 2-4 days off depending on health.

[JonBrave]

A morale question (I think), if I may...

Is there any benefit for troops to be near their commander in battle? Maybe morale? Otherwise, can I set up, say, some members way up top-left and other members way down bottom-right and their commander elsewhere, and it makes no difference?

On a related note, I noticed Redeyes saying weak PD could cause elite troops to rout. So I'm guessing routing troops cause others to undergo/fail morale checks?

(P.S. What did I just read about "squads of less than 4 members having to undergo special morale checks"?)

[thejeff]

No benefit to troops being near their commanders.

A commander with the Standard ability gives morale bonuses to troops near him, but it doesn't matter if they're in a squad he commands or not. Just if they're in the Standards AoE.

Large amounts of weak PD dying/routing can hit the 75% limit causing the whole army to rout automatically. Except berserkers, etc.
From the manual, 50% overall casualties causes morale checks every turn from then on.

Normally a squad only checks morale if they take "heavy losses", a squad under 5 members check morale if they take any damage.

[JonBrave]

A very quick question: I am about to start my third game. I thought I'd go for "Dawn of Dominions", and pick an "average" difficulty nation.

Is the intention from the description that I have to click through to create 11 AI opponents (1 for each nation) and then I play the 12th nation I select (I'll have to write down the names of the "average" ones to remember:( )? Is that what the map is intended for? (Thought it would be pre-saved like that if that was the idea, a bit confused:confused:)

Thanks...

(Oh, and BTW, does that "star-symbol" against only that one game signify anything?)

[thejeff]

Just pick your nation, then add 11 random AI opponents. It'll pick the right ones. (At least it has for me.) When you go to select nations you'll see that all the others are grayed out.

I believe that's why it has the star.

[JonBrave]

Oooohhh, good idea, thank you! I shall do that. So the map is indeed intended for 12 players, I wouldn't have realised that if I hadn't read the description!

Umm, any recommendation for which of the four "average" nations I should try? Have played my first two games with human-type units and fire magic, looking for a change (but I don't want to go near blood yet:shock:)...

[JonBrave]

A few more questions/observsations (all SP):


I don't really see the point of forging much? The majority of my commanders happily don't have any orders: I don't want them killed for the troop rout, so I'm not going to fight with them. The occasionaly definsive thing, but that's it.
As I understand it, each fort takes from adjacent land; if my forts overlap I am actually losing a bit? So I don't build many forts.
In current game, I think I am beating AI because of the PD I build as I go. What is the maximum PD the AI ("normal") would build? Should I limit myself to same cap?

[krpeters]

As I understand it, each fort takes from adjacent land; if my forts overlap I am actually losing a bit? So I don't build many forts.


Each fort uses 100% of the production of the province it is in, and some percent of surrounding provinces. If an adjacent province shows a production of zero, surrounding forts have fully used it. Otherwise, there's still benefit to building a fort there, even though it is a sub-optimal use of gold.

[DeadlyShoe]

The percentage of surrounding resources is the admin value of the fort, which is why Fortified Cities on plains can still work, even with drastically low resources.

Forest and mountain forts ofc tend to have very low admin values so they are only worth building if the province has good resources.

I don't really see the point of forging much? The majority of my commanders happily don't have any orders: I don't want them killed for the troop rout, so I'm not going to fight with them. The occasionaly definsive thing, but that's it.
THe basic items you can forge are mediocre, basically; they can help, but only situationally considering their price. However, once you get to Construction 4 or so, a lot of items come available that can drastically improve combat performance or provide big advantages strategically. For example, you can get items that improve a mages magic skills - enabling them to cast tough spells, or forge items otherwise unavailable. You can also get weapons that cause enemy armies to run away, or that cause area damage.

Also, later in the game most nations can summon very tough very mean commanders that only get tougher and meaner with gear. Eventually you reach a point where the vast majority of recruited troops cannot effectively harm such a commander, and even magic spells can bounce off like ping pong balls.

[thejeff]

The primary use of forts is to recruit mages or to guard valuable provinces (chokepoints or very good magic sites). But mostly for the mages. Therefore, you usually want the cheaper/quicker forts. Admin value and defense are secondary.

As DeadlyShoe says, items are mostly used for building thugs/SCs. It's sometimes worth equipping mages for battle, almost never regular commanders. Maybe bows or spell casting items.

[JonBrave]

@krpeters
ok, so: i think you're saying: if adjacent province shared by 2 forts, the %age that fort#2 gets does not "come out of" the %age fort#1 gets? and i guess if you build fort#2 adjacent to fort#1, fort#2 gets 0 for fort#1, and fort#1 remains as it was?

@deadlyshoe
understood, i haven't reached "later", i either win or lose early. it was just that some post talked about doing loads of forging, but i think i get the picture; i shall forge less :(

@thejeff
i know you're right, but i just don't seem to need/build so many mages, what do you want me to do with them? :confused: i can recruit what i need, mage-wise, back at my capital?

[DeadlyShoe]

Well, the only way you can really get a feel for items is to forge things and try them out in combat. So don't be afraid to experiment. Like I said though, I would recommend at least hitting Construction 4 if you want the items to be actually useful. :)

The more mages you get the better off you are actually. Any mages that you don't actually need in the field can be researching to improve your magic. Some nations can use mages for leading armies too, and basically dont need to recruit any other commanders.

[JonBrave]

I realise about the extra mages can research. But I just read in that "House Rules Against the AI" thread that I need to limit myself to just one researching mage per laboratory :hurt: Till now I built loads mages and researched.

But even saying that, thejeff was saying I needed forts to build even more. I can build plenty from just one fort. Oh well.

[Redeyes]

I realise about the extra mages can research. But I just read in that "House Rules Against the AI" thread that I need to limit myself to just one researching mage per laboratory :hurt: Till now I built loads mages and researched.

But even saying that, thejeff was saying I needed forts to build even more. I can build plenty from just one fort. Oh well.
You are actually following those house rules?

No, you don't always need to build more forts. It's a good idea to build forts when you have an economic surplus or when you find a site with interesting independents; minotaurs are really cool!)

If you run out of money recruiting as much stuff as you can you shouldn't build more forts. If you don't need more troops, it actually happens, it might be a good idea to build another fort to get more mages.

You'll get ahold of the proper balance pretty soon.

[DeadlyShoe]

I realise about the extra mages can research. But I just read in that "House Rules Against the AI" thread that I need to limit myself to just one researching mage per laboratory Till now I built loads mages and researched.


Thats actually kind of a silly house rule, since Research is one area the AI has no problems keeping up with humans. At least on Mighty and Impossible.

[Hrum]

I realise about the extra mages can research. But I just read in that "House Rules Against the AI" thread that I need to limit myself to just one researching mage per laboratory :hurt: Till now I built loads mages and researched.

But even saying that, thejeff was saying I needed forts to build even more. I can build plenty from just one fort. Oh well.

You don't need to limit yourself to one mage per lab - that's an approach someone mentioned using to give themselves a challenge when facing the AI in SP games, but I don't think anyone would recommend that a new player play that way.

I think that the "House Rules against the AI" thread (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=44783) is primarily more experienced people talking about how to keep the SP game interesting for themselves when they've found that they can routinely beat the AI on the hardest setting. If you're only on your 3rd game and not automatically setting the AI to the highest difficulty setting, you may not be at the point yourself that you need to adopt the approaches mentioned in that thread.

There are some interesting ideas in that thread, but that approach in particular of intentionally tying a hand behind your back (ie. not having many mages researching) seems like something that only an experienced player should do. In your case, since you're still getting to know the magic system, choking off your research like that is going to keep you from finding out about a lot of the mid and endgame magic, which means you're missing out on a big part of the game.

If you're playing against the AI set to impossible and the game is too easy, you're winning every time nearly without effort, then sure, use some of those tricks to keep things interesting. Otherwise...

Basically, by not making forts and only making mages at your capital, you're teaching yourself a style of play that would likely get you creamed in a multiplayer game. A veteran player might do something like that to keep SP interesting, but for a new player to do the same you may be giving yourself bad habits.

[JonBrave]

Thanks for all the tips. I guess I just get racked with guilt thinking I might be taking advantage of the pooor AI :)