Help Design my EA TC Setup?.(CBM 1.71)

[rabelais]

I decided to get back into MP after a two year absence and signed up for a nation I remembered incorrectly.


Essentially I thought I was getting MA's troops and affliction repair with EA's mages and forgot about the whole spring thing on EA's sacreds.

Other than CBM the only other relevant parameter is magic sites are going to be 60, presumably to help compensate for the lack of hammers.


So my initial plan was to get an a9-10 bless off the lord of sky (awakening to be decided later) have decent scales and well that's the problem really I don't have astral or death in any quantity.

Oh, the other problem is I don't have access to the a4 lord of the sky and cant find a cheap a9. I guess the closest I can come would be an a9e4 titan (when did these stop being a3?) but it really isn't cheap. the e4 is fine for my sacred mages, but I still don't have a plan. The map is asia twist, so I was thinking something that can go in the water (sacred statue, wyrm) might be handy, but I'm used to being such a scales whore that I will probably be out before it frees itself.

I also notice composite bows are range 30 now. I was playing sauromantia in SP and noticed their bows are range 35 with nonblockable poison. This makes me even less happy about the difficulty with the bless. In vanilla shortbows are 30 composite are 35 and longbows 40. Why was this done?

Nevermind it doesn't matter. Though in my opinion Mot5E should get a 10% extra path chance, while I'm whining about my nation, which I'm sure is fine, I just don't have the expertise.

Someone more versed in modern MP help me with a plan please?

Thanks,

Rabe

[Warhammer]

I would say take W9 for quickness, shorten the time they are exposed to the arrows, and the extra attacks don't hurt either. Take luck, hope you get the man with the iron crutch so you can bootstrap into death. With astral you have some, but you are not an astral power. But, if astral powers are not in the game, you can fill that position.

[LDiCesare]

A9 looks like a real waste. W9 or S9, or W9S9 are much better. D9,F9,E4+,N4+ are also interesting, but Air is definitely not.

A9 will only help your warriors of the 5 elements if you send them alone against archers, and maybe a little bit your demons of heavenly fires. W9 will help your demons of heavenly waters and celestial soldiers. S9,E4+ will help all, including your mages. N4+ will help your demons and celestial soldiers.

I never have had problems with archers when playing EA TC. Just don't send your warriors of the 5 elements against archers. You have tons of tower-shield equipped troops to suck arrow fire, so the Wot5E should never be in any danger of these, so an air bless is a total waste of points in my opinion.
Of course, if you back your warriors with your own archers, you may get some collateral damage. There's an easy solution to that: Don't do it, or use aim.

[rabelais]

I was mostly interested in the a9 bless because it gave my Wot5E 125% lightning protection whick witha strong air pretender could be fun. Plus once they expected nothing but lightning I could change it up. I'm not trying to be a superweenie optimizer, I just want some kind of interesting synergy.

But I realize the problem with EA TC isn't pretenders (even though these are largely meh and bad for blesses) but that their single recruitable archer is 14 resources and is still totally useless in melee and hasn't enough protection(9)to survive an arrow fusillade.

I'll figure something out I'm sure, but except for map move 2 these are terrible units (and to paraphrase woody allen) you can recruit so few of them. are there worse national archers in EA? Make me feel better, tell me about them.

I thought about the water bless, but the only water 2 pretender I get just got nerfed in 1.7 and I don't know enough about their summons to judge if it is worth the points. Is there an updated summoned creature or national spell resource somewhere?



Thanks for all replies.

[LDiCesare]

I don't know if there were changes in latest CBM to the summons, but basically demons of heavenly rivers are sacred berserkers who kick ***, and demons of heavenly fire are extremely powerful flying fireball throwers that your flying celestial masters can move along the map as they like.
Planning a 125% shock resistance is a nice idea, but that won't be very helpful since that will only help capital-only commanders.

Regarding archers, TC archers are expensive, but their bows are composite bow, so I would say they are inferior to Sauromatians and Kailasa (but the latter are expensive in gold). Maybe Yomi's aka-oni if you see them as firethrowers. Otherwise, they are rather better than average.
Ulm has warrior maidens: short bow/prot 11 for 11 res or prot 4 for 4 resources.
Sauromatia has composite bow/prot 4 for 7 resources, and poison archers.
TC has prot 9 composite bow for 14 resources. Plus a good helmet.
Caelum has short bow plus prot 5 or 7 for 5 or 9 resources.
Kailasa has 9 gold/3 resources prot 1 shortbows and 20 gold/10 resources prot 3 9 precision longbows plus sacred longbowmen.
Yomi has 9 gold/2 resources prot 2 shortbows.

Composite bows are precision 1, have a range of 30, deal 12 damage. They are far better than any other bow in this era, except for poison bows and sacred Kailasa bowmen. The ape longbows are twice as expensive and have crap precision (9 vs 10+1).
Overall, I'd say TC archers are not very massable but are the best in the era.

[rdonj]

http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Spring_and_Autumn

I would say that probably any normal shortbow archer is worse, because shortbows don't really do damage to much. Composite bows at least do pack some punch, even if they are harder to mass.

[Rytek]

Well, If you wanted to try your A9 blessing you could try A dormant Jade Emperor. A9,W4,S5 Dom 7. This puts you 1 scale back. I recomment O3,S3,D2L3,D2
This will give you your A9 bless, which will give you your lightning immune sacreds. In any mid game this trick should work well. The S5 can get you thru the late game. Even without a hammer, TC screams for a way to make rings of Wizardry and rings of Sorcery and you should use your S gems for this purpose.

Early game you may struggle a bit, but with some creative scripting your sacreds should be just fine. This also gives you a Titan chasis coming to your defense on begining of the 2nd year. If you research straight to Alt 3, you have some good buffs at your disposal. Body ethereal/personal luck/mistform/quickness.
And then of course you want your evocs. Shockwave, etc.

One thing to try is your flying capitol mages can use this script:
Blessing/ironskin/lighting resist/(mistform/body ethereal/personal luck) not all of the last 3 but the appropriate ones. you can put them up front in the fight and they can be pretty hardy shockwave/orblightning spammers.

[rabelais]

Thank you for your replies, they have all been very helpful.

W/r/t the last suggested bless... I can't do it. a9s4(5)W4 would obliterate my scales. my sacreds are initially cap only and they suck half the year. Plus it doesn't help them in combat that much. Feh. I'd rather go with the titan and take my chances that I can bootstrap something endgame. Or maybe just a cheap dormant/imprisoned sacred statue with mad scales?

I'm glad you all think my archers are fabulous, but I would trade for something naked with shortbows very happily, as long as they were mapmove 2.

anyone know the exact paths on the nature mage +extras I get fairly far down the Conj tree? still looking for death 2 as a fallback.

also I have been prophetizing my scout so I can overtax/patrol with my noble first turn in my test games. Bad idea? I agree the noble has a little thug potential, but in a 19 nation game there wont be too many HoF slots available. seems like a waste when what I really want is an extra castle to pump out more research/troops.

Particularly if I take a level 9 bless.

Also which do you like for points heat 1 or cold 1? cold one is more likely to get negated early by summer. but one of my sacred demons may have heat power. Wish I knew whether niefel on Hinnom would be rushing me....

Thanks again. learning quite a bit. :)

[Warhammer]

Keep in mind, TC is one of the prime candidates for going with Turmoil 3. There is no real need for Order with them. I would say luck is a huge plus, production is nice, but not essential. I would try and get T3G1L3M1

[Warhammer]

I don't know if there were changes in latest CBM to the summons, but basically demons of heavenly rivers are sacred berserkers who kick ***, and demons of heavenly fire are extremely powerful flying fireball throwers that your flying celestial masters can move along the map as they like.

Don't the demons of heavenly fires have 0 prot? Everytime I used them, they dropped like flies. Or are they supposed to sit back like archers?

[rdonj]

How about w9/s9? That would be a pretty all around useful bless, and give them and all your other sacreds quite some offensive power. W5E are actually *very* powerful sacreds, and can be quite effective even when they're in the low hp part of the year. And if you really want to play with some heavy lightning shenanigans later, you can go up enchantment until you get the thunder ward spell. The elemental resist spells have been buffed nicely in cbm as I recall, and while that obviously means taking longer to ramp up to it, you'll probably be considering enchantment strongly anyway. My suggestion is just to play around with blesses for them until you're happy. And use some arrow catchers.

[Warhammer]

Do not underestimate the W5E. They are one of the few units that get better as the game goes on. You have the mage power to make them immune to everything! You can have the mages to give them Legions of Steel, Strength of Giants (don't really need it, but it helps), fire ward, thunder ward, etc.

The water bless is also synergistic with several of your pretender options. I would save the points on the water bless and put it into dominion to get more of the W5E.

Your two questions should be:

1) Should I have another major bless?

2) What scales should I take?

Note on the scales, you don't NEED great scales. You can take sloth or turmoil. The only scale I can't justify with TC is death. Even drain, I can at least justify if I need points (you've got great cap researchers and can forge quills and lanterns).

[LDiCesare]

I don't know if there were changes in latest CBM to the summons, but basically demons of heavenly rivers are sacred berserkers who kick ***, and demons of heavenly fire are extremely powerful flying fireball throwers that your flying celestial masters can move along the map as they like.

Don't the demons of heavenly fires have 0 prot? Everytime I used them, they dropped like flies. Or are they supposed to sit back like archers?
Yes, they are supposed to sit back like archers. They shoot flame wheels that have a good range and can be quite devastating.

[rdonj]

And if you need them to be melee-capable, that's what protection buffs are for.

[Baalz]

I had pretty good success with a W9 lady of rivers and good scales. With a dom of 9 and awe she can clear indies using an encanted shield and breath of winter giving a brutal initial expansion alongside all thos w5e your high dominion and scales let you dump out. All those water gems she generates let you spit out heavenly rivers early for an absolutly brutal opening. Watch for any flavor of amazon indies, they've all got (I think) good sacreds that do well with a W9 bless, and just one extra province curning out good sacreds will let you fairly dominate up into mid game, where god dominion and fast expansion culminates in absurd castles and research and saceds that are nigh unstopable when buffed.

[rabelais]

Been playing with various setups. I agree that the w9 bless is nice, but to take advantage of the MoR (who has been nerfed from 6 gems to 4 in cbm1.71) you have to take her awake which means her total cost is 75+224+dominion assuming 4 bumps for 70 that means you are looking at 369 points minimum. given you only have 350 to work with that puts you at -1 or -2 scales depending on how you want to push the dom. So I guess it depends what you mean by good scales. also the only shield you can make out of the box is a enc 2 black steel tower. (no nature income to start). did enchanted shield get buffed to con 2? it didnt seem to be there.

I suppose one could take her dormant and assume you can still reap some expansive benefit when she arrives, but it seems unlikely in a crowded game.

an imprisoned lady of fortune w9s9 isnt that much worse scales-wise and gives you significantly better sacreds.

Given score graphs are on I wonder what the optimal play is? a huge expansion huge gem income no research start is likely to get piled on....

same problem with lord of plenty if I wanted the earth bless for the sacred mages although 9-->13 protection on the Wot5E is unlikely to help survivability much. also I assume the LoP and LoR now only give 1 of each gem a turn.

If I had access to the sphinx s9e4 would be a no brainer as you get that with +8 scales. But I dont.

Does anyone know HOW MUCH better the size six pretender chasses spread dominion? If it's 10+ extra temple check it might be worth it, but that seems unlikely.

Also given my scales are probably going to bite should I not be afraid of turmoil? both t3 and o3(L3) have the big gold event right?

Too many choices. also I'm not sure what unique in the hammer change means. does it mean they are now con 8 and can only have one in the entire game? Is that the case for all the gemgens as well?

Thanks for all replies. Been enjoying reimmersing in Dom3, even if I'm a quick kill in the game.

[Baalz]

Ooops, was speaking from memory and misremembered the scales, also left a part out - cold 3 scale works very well for the build I suggested. Breath of winter is brutal with W9 in cold, cold dominion turns water elementals into ice elementals (much better for many things), a lot of water evo works better in cold (numbness, ice mist, grip of winter), your W5E don't take an enc hit naturally and are easy to get to 100% CR for things like fighting inside frozen mist, grip of winter, etc. Lots of synergy for cold-3 scales. This does give you an income hit, but you can still have reasonable scales with something like O3, P0, C3, D3, Mf1, Ma1, Dom9. A matter of preference, but I like C3/D3 scales where appropriate as they really kill supply chains for anybody invading you (your castles generally keep you supplied inside your dominion). Enchanted shield (the S1 one) is const-0.

[rabelais]

I have (finally!) made my pretender. Thank you to all those who read / participated.

here are the options I seriously considered. Let me know which you think closest to optimal. Also guess which I actually chose.

Map is AsiaTwist 19 nations site freq 60.

Wyrm no magic. awake. for waterstomping regenerating poison immune goodness.

Phoenix f4a4 dormant. just in time for fire arrow rush.

Oracle: always popular for scalewhoring efficiency. s4 imp gives +13 scales s6 +12 s9 +9 scales all at Dom8!

Sacred statue. one scale less than oracle, in exchange for better stats (though not slots) and amphibious.

Mother of rivers, w9 Dom5 imp leaves you +7 scales. Awake is -1/-2 scales but expands shockingly well.

Lady of fortune considered several imp setups. w9s9 dom 10 (-4 scales) to w9s4 dom 7 (+4 scales)

Jade Emperor considered several imp configs from a4s4w4 dom 6 (+9 scales) to a9s9w9 (don't ask)

Cyclops for e9 for sacred mages. he needs either f1 or dom3 back, or a price reduction to be competitive IMHO

Lord of Plenty everything from s4e4 to s9e9 (curiously the nerf of his gem production made him much less attractive even with *much* less to do with earth gems.)

Does he have a luck effect similar to the Lady of Fortune?

Crone, various setup based around s4d4n4(?1) for endgame options and site searching/path expanding fun. +6 scales Dom 6 dormant, before further adds.

Titan a9s4 dom7 dormant for lightning immune sacreds with a little something for the magery.

Looked at the dragons, but Dom1 really hurts them. I think they may need a buff.


I am impressed with the way 1.7 always leaves you a tiny bit short of further synergy. With 3 more points to spend I would have chosen differently. :doh:

[rabelais]

How would you folks take out a prov with 16 heavy cav, 19 light cav (shortbows) and 27 light infantry (shield + jav) using EA TC national troops and no prophet?

Everything I try in the battle simulator fails until I have massive numerical superiority. Really impressive actually.

Also assume availabilty of indy archers if you like. Even a noble rush doesn't work well, as if I had the resources for that.


Thanks.

[Fantomen]

I'd use a normal priest to bless the sacreds, or give a celestial master two astral gems for PoS/divine blessing :p

But assuming you mean how to do it under a no bless strat with only recruit everywhere units... Perhaps spamming some lesser water elementals with a bunch of masters of the way? Or assuming no magic, perhaps a few shielded arrow catchers for the javelins + lots of pikes to soak the lances and then horsemen flankers to punch through the armor.

[rabelais]

Does the battle order still proceed off the nation ID rather than random, such that I probably as S+A go first?

Fant: thanks for your reply. I have no magic to speak of, and the problem is the javelins. they slaughter the pikes, and of course the tower shield guys cant do much to damage the HC. Timing is tricky.

I typoed and there are only 9 LC, but they take long enough to get to and kill that my Wot5a dont get back in time for the damn LI.

[thejeff]

I'm not sure what you mean by the first question? In battle the defender always goes first. Assuming this is an indy province, you'll always go second.

[rabelais]

I'm not sure what you mean by the first question? In battle the defender always goes first. Assuming this is an indy province, you'll always go second.

Sorry I should have been clearer.

I mean if two attackers attack the same province, does the battle order still go by nation ID such that S+A will go before all but the 4 other nations with lower ID's?

[thejeff]

No. Like many other things in Dominions it goes randomly by either nation ID or reverse nation ID.

In practice, it seems to know which I'd prefer and do the opposite more often.

[rabelais]

Are you kidding? It's not known or it is actually random...

And while we are on the subject of things I ought to know but don't...

Aging occurs when on the calendar? between late fall and early winter?

Thanks for all replies.

[DeadlyShoe]

@Rabelais - Nothing wrong with massive numerical superiority if we're just talking cheap infantry :)

Any kind of AN magic would help a lot. So the lack of a prophet really hurts. Even just one prophet sitting back spamming smite while Glaive/Spear troops held the line would go a long way.

(I would forget Pikes. Not as much damage as glaives, not as tough as spear+shield, and repelling a knight seems futile.)

[Muse]

'Pullback' configuration:
High protection shield troops placed fully forward center, set to Guard Commander. (Commander at back corner.)
High damage troops middle, offset left or right, set to Hold and Attack Closest. (If commander is left, troops are right. No double meaning.)

The independents will all lock and follow the forward picket (archers included,) allowing your armor cutting units to smash the flank of a positionally staggered army.
It has the added bonus of likely negating the lances if timed properly.

[Soyweiser]

And it has the risk of a lucky archer shot taking out your commander. So bring two.

[rabelais]

Is there cash associated with winning the Deathmatch tournament in CBM 1.71 or just the helmet?

[rabelais]

How do I derive what PD various nations get in CBM 1.71? I can't find my manual and the .pdf version seems to be for downloaders only. Edi's database probably has the info but I don't know where to look.

Thanks.

[DeadlyShoe]

It's not in the db afaik. You'll just have to experiment. Usually its pretty straightforward in any case.

[rabelais]

One more question:

Does internal alchemy *always* make the caster insane, or is it probabilistic? Does anyone have hard data?

Thanks.

[rabelais]

Does the game still use your initial dominion score to determine the efficiency of your temple checks for the entire game, or does the efficiency increase with every five temples as it is nominally supposed to? trying to decide how low to take my dominion in my next MP game.

[DeadlyShoe]

Pretty sure it always uses your initial dominion score.