Torches in the Night: MA, Newbies (10> mp games) only, CBM 1.7 (CRASHED AND BURNED)

[dark7element]

After playing a fair bit of single player and a single small-map direct-connect game, I've decided it's time to jump into a larger PBEM game. Since there are none currently recruiting, and my favorite age (MA) is less popular among noob games, I've decided to start one myself. Here are the parameters, including one house-rule.

Map: Primea with semirandomization (150 land, 9 sea). Found here (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=37593). I've played a couple of SP campaigns on srand'ed maps, and I feel the game is a lot less interesting without them. There are no preset starting locations for underwater nations, so starting as them isn't recommended (there isn't much water anyway).

Map settings: I'll be using several setting tweaks to help keep things managable for new players like myself.
Magic research will be set to standard. Independents strength will be set to 7 to slow down expansion, but all players will start with 2 provinces to compensate (and to avoid making SC pretenders mandatory). Standard victory. Magic site frequency set to 45.

Players: 7, including me. I personally find 7 to be a more thematic number for the nature of Dominions than 8 or 6. Since this is MA, with no absurdly overpowered nations like late-age Ermor and Mictlan, no nations are banned. (Edit: It was suggested that Ashdod be banned.) Here is the roster as it stands now.

1. dark7element: Arcoscephale - The Old Kingdom
2. Xerxes2504: Shinuyama - Land of the Bakemono
3. Nightfall: Pythium - Emerald Empire
4. Corvus: Ulm - Forges of Ulm
5. P3D - Abysia - Blood and Fire
6. bgifu: T'ien Chi - Imperial Bureaucracy
7. nozshand: Pangaea - The Age of Bronze
8. Ragnelle: Eriu - Last of the Tuatha

Diplomacy rules:
There will be no arbitrary enforcement of treaties. If your "friend" seems to be massing a huge army of elite sacred troops on your borders, you may want to take his explanation that it's a training exercise with a grain of salt.

Roleplaying and fluff:
I have a confession: I'm one of those wretched, basement-dwelling creatures called 'roleplayers' who likes to give their pretender a unique backstory and use flowery Tolkien-esque language in diplomatic messages. Roleplaying is encouraged but not required. However, please at least refrain from using 'leetspeak', and refer to other players by their pretender name rather than their forum name.

No Ashdod I've never played with/against them, but apparently MA Ashdod is severely overpowered. Since this is a newbie game, I don't want any nations with advantages only a vet can counter.

No elephant rush against other players. It's never happened to me, but I've heard that this is a very annoying tactic for a new player to get overrun by. Elephants may not be used offensively against other players until year 3 (you can still use them against independents, or to defend against other players).

[Saros]

I think you missed Lightless lanterns and jade knives for the restricted list? Also difficult research and limited research items will mean a loooonnnng time before anything decent is researched giving a huge advantage to bless nations.

[dark7element]

Yes, lightless lantern and jade knife should be on the list also.

And you're right, setting magic research to difficult will give too much of an advantage to Bless nations. I'll make it standard research.

[Juffos]

Yup, why did they boost Ulm so much, every other nation is useless now. I'm going to practice my Ashdod a bit because playing them has at least some honor, unlike those Ulmish powergamer wretches.

I also like your decision to reduce the effectiveness of Gale Gate, that global was too powerful compared to eg Astral Nexus.

[Quitti]

what is this i dont even

[llamabeast]

Hello! Always great to see a new player organizing a game.

In case you couldn't tell, Juffos was being sarcastic. You probably don't want Ashdod in the game as they are widely thought to be the strongest nation in all of dominions. I agree that the rest of MA is quite well balanced.

Also, the general consensus seems to be that Ulm remains irredeemably weak even with the buffs it received in CBM 1.7. I would be very surprised if it were overpowered.

Where you put ">5 games only", I guess you meant "<5 games only"? You should probably change it otherwise new players might not bother reading the thread.

[PriestyMan]

(like Ulm becoming absurdly overpowered).




you crack me up. good joke

[Valerius]

Ah yes, the always fun game of piling on the newbie. His offense? He took the initiative to create a game reflecting his opinions. Disagree with his opinions? You could offer constructive feedback, like llamabeast did, so that dark7element might have more luck recruiting players. Or you could deride him for his views. It appears the latter option was the more popular choice. Well done.

[Juffos]

Or you could start white-knighting even when obviously not required. I think my post was more informative and helpful than yours.

[Quitti]

Ah yes, the always fun game of piling on the newbie.
Yes.
His offense? He took the initiative to create a game reflecting his opinions. Disagree with his opinions?
Yes.
You could offer constructive feedback, like llamabeast did, so that dark7element might have more luck recruiting players.
No.
Or you could deride him for his views.
Yes.
It appears the latter option was the more popular choice. Well done.
OH YES!


There. Another meaningless reply to a meaningless reply about a meaningless reply in a hilarious thread.

dark7element, just use cbm1.7. And please do elaborate what this super-enchantment gate is. Do you mean Gale Gate?

[Valerius]

Or you could start white-knighting even when obviously not required.

Obviously not required? Your derision towards dark7element's game idea is what wasn't required.

I think my post was more informative and helpful than yours.

Right, here's the predictable attempt to pretend that your posts were attempting to do anything more than be obnoxious. Sorry, not buying.

There. Another meaningless reply to a meaningless reply about a meaningless reply in a hilarious thread.

Are all recruitment threads hilarious? Or maybe just the ones that vary from standard settings? Or maybe just the ones that vary from standard settings and are posted by a new player? Yes, that sounds about like the kind of target you'd aim for. But hey, we do agree your replies are meaningless.

dark7element, just use cbm1.7.

Right, use CBM 1.7 (is it still beta?) - not CBM 1.6, or vanilla, or your own mod. Because Quitti says so. Laughable.


The amusing thing about JuffosQuitti is the synchronized posts. It almost makes you think they're one person, using one position to feed another in the games he/she joins. But maybe the sad truth is they're just so close they even troll in tandem.

[dark7element]

When I saw another 8 replies, I thought I'd finally gotten some players joining. Imagine my dismay when I found out what it really was.

Apparently my ideas have not gone over well. I'm going to just forget about the special rules and make this an ordinary CBM 1.7 game.

Is strength 7 independents + one extra starting province really that weird? If noone wants to play that, I guess I can change to standard values.

[GrudgeBringer]

Man, You make your game ANY way you want it...It is YOUR game and if someone doesn't like the way you set it up, they can play somewhere else.

I made a game one time that I said no one could go in or cross water for any reason, and then used a map with a BUNCH of water. Everyone screamed and yelled and when it was all over....

The ones that wanted to play did and we had a pretty good game, because the guys that played WANTED to.

Don't be intimidated, but do listen to guys that are actually going to join your game, but keep to your original idea. If no one joins, then that tells you maybe your idea wasn't that good at that time.

C'mon guys, give the new guy a break:(

[Korwin]

My reason for not joining (besides my first 3 MP games) is CBM (dont care for the number).

I find it interesting that the other two newbie games I play that got organisized (relativly fast) on this page are vanilla.
Honestly CBM looks like something for an old (dont want to say veteran ;) ) player, who knows the game in and out and want some change for the sake of change alone.

For newbies who struggle to learn the basic game? I keep to vanilla until that gets stale, but since I found the game <2 months ago, that should'nt be in the near future.

[dark7element]

First of all, the thread title was misleading. I've changed it. Anyone who has played fewer than 10 games is welcome to join.

When you look at what changes CBM actually makes, I think you'll find that they are much more pro-newbie than anti-newbie.

I would never want to play a long campaign with vanilla, because you're forced to engage in hefty micromanagement. You have to spend upwards of half an hour shuffling around dwarven hammers, skull mentors, owl quills and such every single turn. Most new players either don't know how to do this effectively or get tired of it quickly.

CBM also attempts to make the various military units more balanced. This helps prevent new players for being de-facto penalized by building underpowered units because they don't know any better.

Lastly, CBM's restrictions on dowsing rods is a desperately needed nerf for blood nations. I'll admit I haven't PLAYED many multiplayer games, but I've read numerous AARs and played a lot of singleplayer. A "properly" (big scare quotes) set-up blood economy is as tedious as it is overpowered, the worst possible combination if you ask me.

CBM isn't a 'specialty' mod. It isn't designed to fundamentally change the game mechanics. It doesn't add or remove any nations. The only purpose of the CBM is to make the game more balanced, and reduce micromanagement. How is THAT bad for new players?

[Quitti]

Man, You make your game ANY way you want it...It is YOUR game and if someone doesn't like the way you set it up, they can play somewhere else.

This man is speaking the truth, as much as it pains me to admit it.

Though, a few pointers. Ulm is not overpowered. Not in any era. Not with any currently existing widespread-usage mod. Indes 7 is fine. 2 starting provs is fine. CBM 1.6 over 1.7 because of ulm is not. "honor system" of limiting items is not - you could just as well make them unique with a small mod and it'd be much more easy. Elephant rushes are not overpowered, especially with CBM.

Also, it's the general rule of the internet: "Bash the newbie who is/seems to be clueless about thing x". It's not like dominions would be an exception. Only place I know that is friendly to the newbies is the dom irc channel, and that's when Sombre and Jurri are either drunk or absent.


There. Constructive criticism. Now then.

Are all recruitment threads hilarious?
Some. Not all. This one was.

Or maybe just the ones that vary from standard settings?
No.

Or maybe just the ones that vary from standard settings and are posted by a new player?
No, vets can be idiots too. I'm sure you've noticed some around.

Yes, that sounds about like the kind of target you'd aim for. But hey, we do agree your replies are meaningless.
Yes.

The amusing thing about JuffosQuitti is the synchronized posts.
Must be the mentality. We've both grown up on the harsh grounds of DEM INTERNETS.

[Korwin]

Since I didn't get into late play in MP by myself, I cant really argue if or if not CBM is more Newbie friendly.
(I sub for Abysia in an CBM 1.6, but didn't get there by myself.)

But you are reinforcing my argument actually ;-)
Without late MP-Game experience, how should Newbies know that its to much micro for them?

And to be honest, Clams and Hammers aren't to much micro for me in SP.

As for the Balance, my understanding of CMB is, that CBMis not trying to Balance the game, but to make underused 'things' more attractive. (not the same - and while I didn't took a deep look into CBM, I'll take the easy way and belief Frank Trollman and His arguments when he says "not balanced")

As to your last point.
How does it not fundamentally change the game?
If it took a nation out. I would'nt notice it, as long as it was not exactly the nation I wanted to play.
But the changes from CMB all over the place?
Where I have to learn the game from the beginning again?
(Might not be the case. Newbie speaking here. But thats the impression I get.)

I'll stop derailing you thread now, but you now at least know why I didn't sign up.

[Juffos]

bunch of male bovine excrement full of ad hominems

:re:

Check the OP now, Ulm isn't bashed anymore, Ashdod is banned and casting Gale Gate won't be a suicide. My post had the exact effect I intended.

But how have you contributed to the thread? You have done nothing but caused reasonless drama in this thread which should be dedicated to setupping the game and recruiting players, not flaming them. And yet still you try to pile the responsibility onto me. Have you no shame?

I think we will soon see Godwin's Law in effect ;)

[Xerxes2504]

Hey there,
I would really like to join, hope you dont mind, since this would be my very first mp-game.

I would like to play:

Shinuyama, Land of the Bakemono

[Quitti]

And to be honest, Clams and Hammers aren't to much micro for me in SP.

Just to jump into the bandwagon once again - if this is the case, you are not using them correctly. Or then you like micromanagement over everything else.

Good luck with this game, thugs seemed to win this round again!

[dark7element]

Hey there,
I would really like to join, hope you dont mind, since this would be my very first mp-game.

I would like to play:

Shinuyama, Land of the Bakemono

Hallelujah, a post by someone who is actually interested in joining the game. Xerxes2504, you've given me hope that this game will eventually get off the ground, and for that I thank you.

[Nightfall]

By the way, you haven't mentioned a server, I'm assuming llamaserver.

I'll take Pythium please.

[Corvus]

I'll join in as Ulm, I like a challenge. Plus never tried it with 1.7. Never tried PBEM before, apologies in advance if I fluff things up.

Also, a question, given some people enjoy naming their pretenders, ridiculously long, crazy, or odd names, may we refer to them by their nations name as well?

[llamabeast]

Huh, you've been very unlucky with all the semi-helpful comments in this thread dark7element - this doesn't usually happen!

Good luck with the game, looks like it will be fun.

[dark7element]

I'll join in as Ulm, I like a challenge. Plus never tried it with 1.7. Never tried PBEM before, apologies in advance if I fluff things up.

Also, a question, given some people enjoy naming their pretenders, ridiculously long, crazy, or odd names, may we refer to them by their nations name as well?

Yes, that's fine. And yes, we'll be using the llamaserver.

[P3D]

Add me with Abysia.

[bgifu]

I'll take Tien Chi please.

[nozshand]

count me in, i'll let you know my nation after work

[nozshand]

la agartha

[P3D]

la agartha

:confused:
Game is MA

[nozshand]

la agartha

:confused:
Game is MA

my bad, MA pan then

[dark7element]

Well, we've got 7 players, as many as I'd asked for originally, but just last night I got a private message from another player interested in joining. This is a big map, so I've decided to go ahead and let them in on the game also. Hopefully this will only delay the beginning of the game by a day or so.

[Ragnelle]

The last of the Tuatha shall answer the call. Too long have we lived, hidden away in the mists, watching men squander what is rightfully ours. Though our realm shall eventually fade, still we strive to see beyond the impossible.

Be on your guard. ;)

(I am the player - had to bug Caradryan to message you for me. Sorry for the delay! Put me down as MA Eriu please.)

[dark7element]

The game has been created. Go ahead and send your pretenders in. Don't forget to enable CBM 1.71 WHILE you're making your pretender, as it affects the creation process.

For Ragnelle and anyone else who might be unfamiliar with the process (I was until recently), email your pretender file to pretenders@llamaserver.net. Make sure 'TorchesInTheNight' is the subject of your email (without the ' ' apostrophes of course).

I would REALLY rather you not password-protect your pretenders, the llamaserver FAQ says that can cause problems. Unless you can somehow hack into another player's email, there's no way you can cheat by examining someone else's turn. It makes it difficult to get a sub when people drop out (and people usually do).

Get your pretenders in, and with luck, we can start soon.

[Corvus]

Submitted.

[Ragnelle]

Done.

[dark7element]

I just thought I should let everyone know that I've changed my mind at the last minute about which nation I want to play. I've read a number of guides and strategies about MA Man and they all agree that it's a very weak nation, possibly even worse than Ulm. I'm not really that good a player, so I can't afford to play a nation that takes an expert to use. I'm changing my nation to Arcoscephale, not a powerhouse by any means but reasonably competitive. If anyone else wants to change nations let me know.

[Corvus]

If you were going in to man without any real plan then I could understand that, since you would probably get curb stomped by the first semi-competent opponent you met. But really you should always have a fairly detailed plan going into any game. Long term goals, expansion plans, its pretty important to have at least a rough idea of what you're going to do before you start the game, with any nation.

[dark7element]

I did have a plan. I was going to try and rush towards Mother Oak and Gift of Health, while not taking any scales of growth to save points, in order to counteract crone mortality, which is one of Man's biggest weaknesses. I was planning to spam tons of castles and aggressively trade for air gems to summon the air elemental royalty as a SC, to compensate for my crappy national troops. That strategy allowed me to defeat a bunch of AI players set to 'mighty' difficulty. But even against inexperienced players, it probably wouldn't work very well. Arcoscephale has crappy troops also, but at least their mages are good (and don't require massive effort to stop them from dying of old age constantly).

[Ragnelle]

[Having MA man would have been an excellent thematic ally/nemesis.

Ah, well. I would hardly call Man weak when we have Ulm and myself on the battlefield. :P]

[dark7element]

Eriu is at least good at raiding, and Ulm at least has good forging capability. Man has neither of those. I love their fluff, but they're too hard to use properly. Maybe in the future CBM will make wardens worthwhile, but as it is, you have to be an expert to make Man competitive at all.

[Corvus]

You would be amazed at how effective bardspam usually is against new players. Plus longbowmen are pretty drat good en masse, especially buffed. Shutting down an enemies recruitment and income in one turn can be pretty devastating, especially if they don't know the counter. If you move before they can get counters to archers your longbowmen will rape, especially if you can get to flaming arrows quickly.

[Corvus]

Well crap, I had 2 middle age Ulm pretenders premade and it looks like I sent in the wrong one, and it has a password... This might muddle things a bit... ah well.

[Nightfall]

Happy for a restart if necessary, my 'get the worst possible starting position on the map' power worked again! :doh:

[dark7element]

Assuming there are no objections from other players, I'd be glad to go ahead and restart. Goodness knows Ulm needs all the help it can get.

[Corvus]

The pretenders are only slightly different, slightly reworked the magic paths when I made one without a password for this game. I don't particularly want to restart unless it might really cause problems for the game with the password...

[Xerxes2504]

Im fine with a restart. Got with my scale picks worst possible starting location.

[Ragnelle]

I really don't care either way, as the Tuatha now have no in-game motivation to actually fight. :P

Are we still taking our turns or are we restarting?

[Xerxes2504]

If Corvus is fine with his Pretender there should be no need to restart, except for the password issue.

[dark7element]

If it's only a relatively minor difference in pretender design, then it wouldn't really be fair to restart the game for the benefit of those players who got a bad starting position. It's likely that someone else, or possibly even more players, would end up with bad starting positions.

Remember that in MP Dominions, having a weak starting position is not necessarily a bad thing. Most players are happy to ally with a weaker nation and assist them if they get into a fight, whereas nations that have an exceptionally strong start are asking to get dog-piled (this almost always happens to Ermor in LA games, and often to Mictlan also).

[Xerxes2504]

Looks like Pythium got a huge income hit. Wonder what happened.

[dark7element]

Pythium players often take order/misfortune scales. Misfortune often generates independent armies that attack your provinces (trogs are probably the worst of these), and he may have had the bad luck to get one early. If I'm not mistaken, setting independents strength to 7 also makes barbarians and such stronger, so beware.

I'm sure everyone is having their own little difficulties: I for one lost several elephants to lion tribesmen of all people.

[Nightfall]

Nah, It's no big deal, I just overtaxed my capital for the first few turns, didn't have any luck with the patrolling and had to eat one turn of 0 tax in the capital.

Income will be back to normal next turn.

[Ragnelle]

[At least the only thing you've managed to lose are elephants. My Sidhe followers are getting annihilated cleaning up indies. ): ]

[Corvus]

I would have had merc's taking out my indies if tien' chi hadn't put stupid amounts of gold into their bids. Having stupidly sturdy troops helps though.

[Corvus]

Random event torching my lab really put me behind in research. -_-

[Xerxes2504]

I lost a hero to some lucky indies -.- .

[Ragnelle]

[You know, they should really add a Pantheonic victory condition. I really don't want the swamps or wastelands, which seems to be the only thing around my territory.

Speaking of territories, looks like barbarian hordes may be on the rise. ):]

[Ragnelle]

My apologies for double-posting, but I think it'll be easiest if I make my position clear here. I now know who my neighbors are. :P And I'd like to stay a peaceful nation for as long as possible. Barring obvious acts of hostility like massing troops on my borders, I will refrain from attacking first.

[Corvus]

No need to apologize for double posting, they disable the edit function for any post after the 1st after an hour or so.

[Corvus]

Odd, something appears to be wonky with my internet/computer... the connection is fine, but my browser is acting very.. wonky. I'm almost incapable of retrieving the latest turn file from my email it took about 10 minutes to get it to download, and I don't know if I'll be able to get my 2h to reliably send, could I ask that the auto turn be paused until I can sort this?

[Corvus]

Its only getting worse, think I managed to get turn 12 sent in though. Maybe. Time to virus scan.

[Xerxes2504]

That sucks for you. Btw do we play always 24h a turn or will there be extensions after a specific amount of turns?

[Ragnelle]

I'll be busy from the 22nd to the 26th, with no reliable access to the internet. What should I do about turns? Get a sub, or ...?

[dark7element]

You aren't the only one who's having problems, Corvus. My last turn was a stale because my damn internet connection has been down (I should have just played the thing as soon as I got it, but... procrastination).

Holiday season is a bad time for D3.

I'm honestly not sure what to do about Ragnelle's problem. Maybe I should just set the turn deadline way back and have no turns from the 22nd through the 27th? Other players will probably be fairly busy themselves.

[dark7element]

You aren't the only one who's having problems, Corvus. My last turn was a stale because my damn internet connection has been down (I should have just played the thing as soon as I got it, but... procrastination).

Holiday season is a bad time for D3.

I'm honestly not sure what to do about Ragnelle's problem. Maybe I should just set the turn deadline way back and have no turns from the 22nd through the 27th? Other players will probably be fairly busy themselves.

[Ragnelle]

[Eh, your choice, really. I don't want to hold up the rest of the game. ]

On a related note, the Tuathans view Pangaea's scouting with great suspicion. Unless, of course, Pangaea also wanted a certain swamp badly?

[Nightfall]

I'm not certain to have internet either between the 23rd to the 1st, maybe set the turn timer to 10 days on the 22nd and back to normal after new year.

[Corvus]

Got it fixed, still staled T_T.

[nozshand]

how come i got two turn files from last night, one of which i staled

[P3D]

The server does not accept my turn file - wrong turn number, even after I had my turn resent.

[Nightfall]

Yeah confused the hell out of me too until I realised what happened.

Looks like two turns were processed accidently and then the second rolled back...

You need to use the first turn file you received and delete the second.

[Xerxes2504]

Yep use the first. The second file actually is a turn 16 file despite the email stating it is 15.

On another note. Whats up with Tien Chi? Looks like he staled the last 4-5 turns. If he is gone it would imbalance the game in favor of the neighbors heavily.

[nozshand]

can we postpone the game untill after chrismas

[Xerxes2504]

Strange. Looks like the server did not roll back. He now sent turn 17.

[Xerxes2504]

Server desynced.
He now sends turn 17, despite stating in the subject it is turn 16. If you now send turn 17 back, he answers tha he wants turn 16 :P .

dark should roll him back.

[Ragnelle]

I sent in 16. Won't have much time afterwards. :X Second the break until at least after Sunday or something...

[Corvus]

Same, I sent in turn 16, then I get a message this morning that we were on turn 15. Just pause the game, its Christmas, people are busy/gone.

[Xerxes2504]

Does not make a difference, because if you have send turn 15, you got a stale message in-game on turn 16 (happened to me). Looks like we really have to rollback.
A second game-admin would be nice, to change things faster.

[Nightfall]

The server definitely has a big problem, although there does not appear to be an admin password as I seem to have all the admin options.

[Xerxes2504]

A PW is definitely set. Try postpone hosting or any other option where the pw is required.

No point in continuing playing at this time. Hope dark shows up soon.

[Ragnelle]

I found a wi-fi hotspot in some random little coffee shop, and apparently the new turn assumed that I staled - despite me having sent a turn in yesterday and a turn in before.

Ugggggggggh. Not going to bother with turns for quite a bit until we figure out what's going on...

[dark7element]

I'd like to apologize for the horrible trainwreck that has become of this game. I didn't roll back the turn or do anything except send in turns as usual: I have no idea what screwed it up. I would have postponed the hosting but, right when I've been busier than ever with the holiday season, I've forgotten the admin password like an imbecile. Like most of the rest of you, my position in the game is irrevocably screwed up. I would just declare an end to the game, but again, I don't remember the admin password and as far as I can see there's no way to retrieve it.

I'm sorry, everyone. This was my first game as an admin on the llamaserver and I clearly wasn't ready for the responsibility. If any of you are interested in re-organizing the game (with someone else as admin, obviously) I'd be glad to do it.

[P3D]

Just send a pm/email to llamabeast to shut down the game.

If the game is restarted, I'd prefer another map. Primea is bugged (there are two provinces overlapping in the NE corner) and there are several starting locations with only two neighbors.

[Nosantee]

If the game does get re-hosted I'd love to get into it.

[rdonj]

Actually I'm pretty sure llamabeast can reset the admin password if he wants.

[Corvus]

Most likely, I would suggest you have a talk with Llama before giving up.

[Xerxes2504]

Thats all really disappointing. Hope at least for a restart.