End game diversity mod

[sansanjuan]

The "vote" thread got me thinking (unusual)..

I really like the new end game diversity mod. It's been out long enough that others may have comments too. Suddenly decent mid/late game summons for non-death nations. My experience is still early. Anyone gone late game with it? How did it compare to the classic tart factory end game?
ssj

[PriestyMan]

it has added a whole new dynamic to the lategame i would say. for example in the Troubling Times game on the faerun map, several nations have or could have tarts, but they are only one aspect to their arsenal, and are comparable to ember lords as sc, but shishis, zmeys, wendigos, and asynja are all seen across the map. its a very intersting game. i think the EDM is one of the best mods to come out in terms of improving gameplay since.... well cbm i guess

[Duncan_Frost]

I love the idea of the mod, since one of the main draws of Dom3 for me was the promise of '1000+ units!' and then it turns out only about 20 of them get used in the end-game. So having more diversity is a great thing!

The only problem is, I really dislike the sprites :p

[Redeyes]

My complaint is that it moves the game even more towards summons; national troops, and even independents, are underutilized.

I'm still out on if it's well balanced or not, but I really think it adds to the game.

[Gandalf Parker]

Well it is an EndGame mod. The Dom game was meant to go from armies to magic. But I dont worry about balance or game "fixes" . I like that it adds to the game. BTW There is also an earlier Elementals EndGame mod.

I like playing solo games with SingleAge, Mytheology and Immortal Pretenders and Nova Deus (more gods), Worthy and Epic (more heroes), CPCS (more spells) the Magic Sites mod (more sites), Elemental End Game and End Game Mod (more bigger monsters). And then maybe fill the nation slots from 73-95 with modded nations.
AND THEN RUN THRU THE CHAOS PROGRAM MUHAhahahahahaa!

[llamabeast]

Ooh cool, a feedback thread!

I'm very pleased that a lot of people seem to like the mod and it's become quite widely used. Oddly I feel that I haven't heard that much about people's experiences with it, so any feedback is very welcome. Balance thoughts are great, but I'd also love to hear any little stories people have about using the summons. Even "I summoned a Zmey, and it did a great job of killing Helheim's armies, until finally he took it down with a specially kitted Hangadrott" or something is really lovely to read for a modmaker! :)

[TheConway]

The mod is pretty cool, but tbh there will never be a replacement for tarts until/unless they are no longer the most efficient way to diversify. Reducing the paths on Asynjas, Krakens, Cyclops, and Rocs was a step backward IMO, as in order to truly provide an alternative to tarts, the summons need to at least provide some diversity.

[Baalz]

Ooh cool, a feedback thread!

I'm very pleased that a lot of people seem to like the mod and it's become quite widely used. Oddly I feel that I haven't heard that much about people's experiences with it, so any feedback is very welcome. Balance thoughts are great, but I'd also love to hear any little stories people have about using the summons. Even "I summoned a Zmey, and it did a great job of killing Helheim's armies, until finally he took it down with a specially kitted Hangadrott" or something is really lovely to read for a modmaker! :)

I prophetized a Grendlekin with a N8/E4 blessing and GoH up, gave him a ring of regen (and full other gear as well) totaling 360 points of regen on 1440 hps in dom 10. Armor of souls + MR charm = 32 MR with a 29 protection. I'm considering empowering him in nature which will give him even more regen and more importantly elemental fortitude to bring him around to just about unkillable. This dude laughs off multiple gifts from heaven hits in a round!

I've also used several cyclopses quite economically. Same game and blessing, shrouds of the battle saint + messenger boots, then send them out with earthpower + fireshield + phoenix pyre, they're pretty darn nasty at clearing non-scs. Waded through a bit over a thousand LA Ermorian undead with 3 or 4 of them, though disintegrate spam did ruin my day a few turns later.

[Finalgenesis]

Agree with Conway.

Judging from the reduction of paths on the EDM stuff, I think the intention isn't actually to provide an alternative to tartar endgame but rather just to give more options for mid - midlate games, and choices for non-D gem summonable SCs. Content wise, more options and outlet for other gem type is a great thing, even if they can't compete with tarts.

Tartars are a one size fit all answer, they have huge toughness to SC, but most importantly their godly pathing, they can SC, ritual, forge, battlecast with equal aplomb and versatility. Whereas EDM summons are usually focused on SCing, their light focused magic path is designed to give them just enough to self buff and SC, and even the higher end EDM SCs can't beat the many viable combat pathed (much deeper pathing) tartarians, or either lack their mobility.

Looking at it from the angle that EDM's isn't about giving competitive alternative to Tarts but possible options for other gem types, it's a great mod.

[Jack_Trowell]

The problem for me is that I think that Tartarians are too cheap and should not be used as reference.

For me this mod feels like if we had "resolved" the gem generators problem by modding (if it was possible) more of them so each player can make lots of them with whatever gems/path the got.

I Think that elemental royalty and other uniques should be the base inspiration for SC chassis: if it is non unique, make it eitheir weaker, or cost more (50+ gem for a correct SC chassis)

Such a mod would means increasing the cost of tartarians *greatly*.

The problem is that the spell is so cheap because it is supposed to take into account the problems with tartarians:
- shattered soul
- start with afflictions
- you get one random unit among several, you cannot choose the one you really need or want
- often start as a unit, so you need to cast Gift of Reason to get a commander

The last one if one of the main problems: with GoR, you need to add a N gems cost to the tartarian (as well as the mage-time of the caster), so the SC cost more.

The starting afflictions can be a pain, but if you happen to have the chalice or Gift of Health cast, it donesn't matter anymore.

The other problems start to fade into nothingness when you realise that you can summon them in great numbers thanks to their base cost, and even a simple units they are great for the cost if massed.

Some possible solutions (we might need to use several of them):

- cost increased to 40+ D gems, this would make the spell hard to mass as much, it would still be usefull, but you would be more likely to look first for alternatives if you can.

- make the spell always summon a commander (and increase the cost), or make it always summon a simple unit, so the need to cast GoR is garanteed and the spell cost can take it into account

What I would like would be for the late game to be around a few SCs, lots of thug, and some national units, instead of a race for who can get the most SCs.

[Executor]

How 'bout this one, I summoned a Zmey, sent it against Jotun PD of about 10, there was a bane (which was a site summon, non commander) and the Zmey got torn into shreds?

I really like the other stuff doe, pretty much all except Shinsyas or whatever they're called.

EDIT: Also Llama, I had a Zmey die from BoT, I think they should have a little bigger age limit than 50. :)

[bgifu]

Mind Hunt could only cut one head of Zmey.And their mobility is good.When Abysia summon lots of Zmey,the war is hard to defend.

[Fantomen]

I've been using the mechanical giant a lot, I found that they're very effective raiders against astral nations due to mind hunt+magic duel immunity.

My favorite setup so far is to give him boots of quickness+flying carpet so he can bring along some henchmen like mechanical men or statues, plus whatever weapons and shield fits the bill. Against undead chaff for example I used herald lance and charcoal shield so he could cast quickened solar ray spam from behind statue bodyguards and then soak up the rest with the fire shield.

Zmeys I used in my latest game. From what I heard they would die fast so I was surprised when they proved both extremely effective and survivable. I used them as army support rather than raiders, with lycan ammy and luck pendant set to attack monsters to take down tough enemies on the battlefield.

Wendigo is just awesome, super cheap for a w4d4 mage/SC. Especially considering it's water gems. I simply make a "farm" province to let them eat and send them out when fully grown. load up with gear and go Soul vortex/quickness/kick ***. It's a bit weird that it's cheaper than Kokythiads, IMO the wendigo could be upped to 35 gems or so and still be a great deal.

Shishis are ok raiders and anti SC (against undead), but quite situational now after the nerf. They were in the right spot power wise from the start IMO, though I do agree with dropping to A2. But the stats should have been kept as was I think.

Grendelkin and treeants I haven't used myself but my opponent in Warthog spams them at me. So far not impressed at all. I've killed them off easily with Risen oracles and GoR:ed Umbrals, but I suspect this is more due to their lack of proper equipment and poor deployment than any problem with the summons themselves. I'm looking forward to see what i could make of them if I planned a strategy around them.

As it stands now though, I could hardly justify getting a Grendelkin over two wendigos, or a treeant over GoR:ing two of something (like gargoyles etc)

Never got to try or even meet a Ember lord yet, but I'm looking forward to it.

[Baalz]

Grendelkin and treeants I haven't used myself but my opponent in Warthog spams them at me. So far not impressed at all. I've killed them off easily with Risen oracles and GoR:ed Umbrals, but I suspect this is more due to their lack of proper equipment and poor deployment than any problem with the summons themselves. I'm looking forward to see what i could make of them if I planned a strategy around them.


Oh man, I was almost thinking Grendelkin are overpowered. You just have to realize that they are not damage dealers, they're damage soakers. They're probably about right for the cost, but they're out of the box great raiders and just absolutely awesome if you put just a bit of effort into them. Any SC *should* go down to a crafted counter or anti-SC tactics, but with very cheap equipment Grendelkin aren't going down to anything short of that.

For big battles have some fairly cheap mages buff them and stick 5-10 gems worth of whatever resistance/immunity is appropriate. You can also stick a fear helm + lantern shield (or implement axe) for a substantial fear aura (+15) which nicely combos with a golden shield. Their hps are so high that having one with jacked up MR is a great lightning rod if you expect to need one. For anti-SC duties give them some gladiator gloves and quickness and there's not really anything with a prayer of living through that assault - that's 12 attacks at 41 damage! And it's not like there's much that can kill them fast enough to keep the pummeling from happening...

[Executor]

I agree, Grandelkin are just nasty bastards when it comes to using them as anti SC.
He doesn't even need many items. Just something to pound with, like the gloves, and a regeneration item. I'm pretty sure any unaware SC that ran into his path would get slapped around.

Oh, and the Mechanical Giant is very nice as a raider or a support thug to an army, very cost effective.

[Valerius]

I like Grendelkin as well (though most of the comments I've seen haven't been impressed with them). A couple things I'd add to what has been mentioned above is that those high HPs come without an undead/demon/magic being tag (and the counters those tags open up). And that Grendelkin have darkvision 75, meaning they won't have their attack/defense cut in half when Darkness is cast, like so many non-undead/demon summons do.

But Wendigo do sound interesting - I'll have to take a closer look at them.

I really like Treants but I've only summoned one. I just can't justify spending N gems on them instead of forging gear, fueling globals, GoRing SCs.

[TheDemon]

EDM is indeed a very nice mod. On Something Awful, where I play most of my games, it's actually probably more popular than CBM.

If anything needs a bit of work it might be wendigo, treants and ettins.

Wendigo might do with losing a few intermediate forms or starting more powerful. I could use them, but they're awfully annoying to get going and I'd rather spend W on grendels instead.

Treants I don't really know, I can't find them a proper role. They'd be fine as damage sponges if they weren't so hard to make invulnerable with their slots. I can't think of a solution for them, it would be nice maybe if they had more diverse magic (3 or 4 paths?).

The problem with ettins is I always end up ignoring them. I think ench 7 is too far up the tree for them, they'd do fine with a HP nerf (45 to 60?) at ench 5, but once you're at ench 7 you have much better things to spend gems on than vulnerable thugs. It isn't like Conj 6 or Thau 6 where you can hit those levels for other spells, Ench higher than 5 you go for a good reason or not at all.

[sansanjuan]

For those that don't know, Valarius has a cool twist on the tart and elemental royalty summons in Momentum3 (unsure if it has been done quite like this before). Nice attempt to blend those modded summons with EDM. See lead post in

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=46129

-ssj

[Squirrelloid]

i've been rather disappointed in Asynja, and only ever bother to hire them for the chance at a RoS caster, since its marginally better than just chain-summoning tarts.

Really, in general i find the magic diversity provided by tarts to be more important than the SCs, and EDM doesn't really do much to alleviate that demand for tarts.

[llamabeast]

Firstly, just thought I'd let everyone know that I read this thread (and others like it) about ten times per day, literally. Unfortunately (both for my job and for my dom3 responsiveness), that checking is while I'm at work, where it's difficult to reply. I don't have so much time in the evening.

This feedback, and the stories a couple of you kindly posted, are awesome! Thanks very much.

I was very worried that Zmeys and Grendelkin were too weak. It sounds like people have at least found uses for both of them, which is great. Perhaps Zmeys are still too weak - more feedback needed I think. And yes, Zmeys should have a higher #maxage.

I think perhaps the Shishis need a bit more attack skill. A number of people have said that I overnerfed them.

Glad to hear people have been using the Cyclops (Baalz) and the Mechanical Giant (Fantomen) - people almost never mention them!

Mixed opinion on Wendigos probably means they're about right I guess!

Shame if the Asynja's not very good. Titans are not that amazing really. Maybe she should be cheaper, I'll check the price again.

Has anyone ever successfully used a Treant? In my testing I found them pretty powerful, but I have not heard much about people using them.

Has anyone ever used an Ember Lord? Any good?

[TheConway]

Ember lords seem quite good, though the large model can make it difficult to select nearby commanders in the strat map screen.

The problem with Trants I think is A- their role is somewhat difficult to figure out, and B- they cost N gems, one of the most valuable in the game.

[rdonj]

Well, Treants have high hp, especially in its second shape, a minimum of 20 protection, and a splash of reinvig/regen (more if in a forest), plus it entangles both when attacked and when attacking. They're guaranteed 3n mages, so they can cast personal regen and get a pretty decent benefit from it. Plus easily cast elemental fortitude, so natural 50 resist to cold and lightning damage, effectively. The ones with earth have 2 earth if shifted, so summon earthpower gets them to 3, and they can self buff iron will if desired for additional mr on top of their starting 18. The ones with water randoms can cast personal quickness, breath of winter, or if they like they've got the paths and resistance to make a natural foul vapors caster. A treant with summon earthpower in a forest has a reinvigoration of *ten* which is pretty awesome for buffing and general spellcasting, and can allow them to serve as SCs and mages in the same battle without being completely insane. And with a single gem they can cast things like weapons of sharpness, quickening, army of gold... etc, etc.

Treants seem to be mostly suited for defensive purposes I think. Let's say you have a fort that you want to protect. A treant is pretty much ideal for blocking the gates, or serving as a generic damage sponge. Give it some cheap gear (AMA, fire resist ring, and lead or gold shield seem like no brainers), some enchant and alteration buffs and they should be ready to weather nearly any magical or physical assault. It also turns out they have pretty high strength and attack skill, so should be able to rip most things up in melee. I admit I have absolutely 0 MP experience using the EDM summons, but I can definitely see uses for the treant.

And of course, for additional fun, try prophetizing one with dom 10 and an e8 bless.

I do think that it would be nice if they had recuperation though :P

[Squirrelloid]

I suppose i can give more complete feedback:

Grendelkin - great for army support/anti-SC. I am not comfortable with them as SCs because they lack magic for buffing, and so feel too vulnerable.

Cyclops - I actually get a lot of use out of these guys for AoG/L casters and other army buffs. Don't really SC with them. With CBM 1.7 and a new earth booster, i can see using them as Earth Attack casters.

Wendigos are almost certainly too good relative to Streams from Hades. It doesn't take that long to max one out. The correct solution may well be to make Streams from Hades cheaper...

On Asynja - honestly, if they all had E2 they'd be great =). Maybe just another random? As it is, they're in the weird place of making a good raiding thug (don't need much gear, really), but they cost like an SC - but sometimes you get one with exactly the right randoms to be more useful.

Treants - they use N gems. I never have N gems to use for summons like the Treant.

Ember Lord - nice in Heat dominion. Not very good in cold dominion. So situationally useful, but definitely SC material. And one of the best uses of F gems i know of. (Also, trivially a FftS caster, which has its uses).

Kraken - mostly useless since you made them E1B1 instead of X2 sorceries. I tried using them as bloodhunters one game, since they cost W instead of N (where Lamia Queens were my other option, cost N, and weren't guaranteed B) - but quickly switched over to VLs after I had enough slaves.

[Jarkko]

Regarding Treants.

Nature gems are badly needed for lots of stuff. Treants are summoned with nature gems.

You simply don't get enough bang for the bucks when you summon treants. Nature gems are better spent elsewhere.

Perhaps, just *perhaps*, treants would be worth it if they had recuperation and they did autocast elemental fortitude at the start of battle, or they did autosummon bugs/pixies/whatever at the start of the battle (for some weird reason I see those pixies living in the hair of the treant) so that they would have time to cast the self-buffs, or *something* else that they really truly would make you consider using the nature gems on them. As it is, I for one think it is better not spend the rare N gems on treants.

[Dimaz]

Maybe treants can be used in lategame as tough N bf casters. Especially with E they have access to Gaia Blessing, and Mass regen+Relief are both important for big armies with several SCs, while equipping N boosters on lowhp n2 human mages (national or indy) seems rather risky (taking into account various remotes cast onto such armies and consequences of losing the buffer before the battle). Usually I used N tarts for that role but they are unpredictable and stopping the whole army due to craziness of one key caster makes me sad.

[Numahr]

Regarding your approach of magic diversification,

I understand that you do not want to create new Tartarians, and probably these should be nerfed.

However what about creating some kind of summonable, non-SC random multi-path mage with astral gems? While you created competitors to Tartarians in terms of SC / raiding use, this would create a competitor to their magic diversification use, and making it Astral is logical flavour-wise. An immobile manifestation of the Astral Plans? A Gate, an Enchanted Mirror of the Plans easy to break but with powerful magic? Like 4 S + two or three random paths x2 or x3, maybe with a focus on Sorcery.

Or maybe an Astral-Death summon equivalent of Tart for failed ranbow pretenders? An undead Archmage, Enchanteress, etc. It would need to be balanced against Spectral Mages, but at conj. 9 and with severe limitations like immobile and very weak, or why not immobile + the dominion reduction effect (that is a Godly spirit after all, with a much more powerful spirit than the Tartarians who are combattant pretenders, and thus had less magic when designed) why not? A "Tartarian Mage" somehow.

If you don't like thess concepts anyway, the point is to suggest a magic diversification solution, with no use as raider/SC and severe limitation, based on Astral.

[sansanjuan]

I echo the Mech Giant praise. With modest equipment one took out the indy Vampire lord with nary a scratch. I didn't realize they have magic 10 leadership.

I really like the look of the Ember Lords (think Balrog). No big battles with him yet. Will post.

-ssj

[ExHeretic]

I have never played the game with EDM... I think it would be nice for SP games. Stomping the comp with powerful dudes is fun every now and then. For MP games i'm afraid that the mod would drag the game at direction where i would not like it to go. And that is towards more SC's. I mean this mod could simply be called SCEM (SC Endgame Mod) :p

I know the next thing that you all will tell me is that the game is already just about SC's in the end. I challenge anyone who thinks that way to build tart SC that i can't take down with commander devils (yes the ones that come with imps) that are equipped with holyscourges/ flamberges and quicknes boots using less gems (gems = gems but slaves = money) :D

I mean that in vanilla late game everyone uses tarts but they are easy to countter because of that undead tag. Whitout gemgens other SC are rare enought not to dominate the game. And their cost is high enought that they can be killed with many countters using fewer gems.

Changes that i would like to see in game is more troop summons. Like spell that would give me group of non commander sleeppers or ether knights (Ether warriors on etherial unicorns with grazy stats). Maybe also changing some of the current spells to give more troops. Like legion of wights. And changing the hidden in sand spell to use fire magic/gems :D

Anyway im probaply wrong person to talk anything about the late game. I usually play smaller games where the vanilla game works quite well anyway. I like the strategy side of the game and i like theorycrafting. I also like to see all my nice theories crumble to dust in the harsh reality of MP games :D

When players have reseached everything in the game the strategy is pretty much used allready and all that is left is grinding the resource war.

Maybe im just bit over pessimistic and should still give this one a try someday ;)

[Korwin]

I'm a little confused here:

I mean that in vanilla late game everyone uses tarts but they are easy to countter because of that undead tag. Whitout gemgens other SC are rare enought not to dominate the game. And their cost is high enought that they can be killed with many countters using fewer gems.


I read a contradiction here ;)

[Finalgenesis]

1.7 makes Zmey better I think, since it's a low equip out the box chaff eater, its cost effectiveness has improved against other thug/SC requiring more gears to be effective. I haven't otherwise ran into them in MP much to say more...

I think Shishis are okay. As is they are cheap low equip out the box mini-thug and air caster for 30A, the mobility, anti-chaffness (mistform), native weaponry, native-armor and a bit of anti-demon power gives them a very good value. One of them can even add to a wall def a bit. I've even gotten 3A ones sometime...

I think the low att is a good touch (and its not as if 12 is "low", like gargoyle, golems and the like...), and gives them the weakness of high def troops / thugs with magic weapons. Compare 15A per to 12D bane lord for their different utility and I think it's mostly balanced. I also like the choice of picking at most 3 out of some standard: AMA, Luck, burning pearls, warrior ring and girdle.

Cyclops are nice, as is mech giant with their balance of great advantages and weaknesses. What's said has been said before on them.

Great kraken, Asynja and Ettin I think is meh. I'll just go into Ettin ...

After looking at it some, Ettin suffers from costing N gems and not having enough base SC attributes. No fear, no paths, little innate prot, has incumb, no resist, imperfect MR (the golden 18), no flight, naked (compare it to say bane lord, single digit hammer gems worth of gear is enough to make it effective)...etc, its almost like a naked giant 3 handed human with a lot of hp. Basically it's something requiring more gear to reach effectiveness then many others. It's 3 hand slots allow interesting things, but losing misc kind of equals it in my eyes (I don't even count the extra head, its a trap for overspending!).

Treant I don't have much experience on. They look pretty good actually, I think its the N cost that's cramping their usage. God knows there's never enough N for the globals, fairy queens, GoRs, staple gears...etc.

[ExHeretic]

You have good eye for details ;)

Instead of talking about vanilla i should have said non EDM :doh:
I'm mixing my mods here :re:

The games i play in vanilla are usually so small that gemgens won't brake the game or have no gemgens as houserule. I still think that dom is at its best played 1 vs 1 on large map :)

[rdonj]

I guess it seems like the ettin and treant would be a lot better off if they took a price decrease, I think that is probably the best buff they could get at this point and would make more people willing to consider using them.

Also, ettins are anti-thugs, not thugs in and of themselves. 3 swords of swiftness + boots of quickness... mm. Gate cleaver/midget masher and a shield. 3 scutata volturnus and 2 spirit helms? :)

[Finalgenesis]

There are more cost effective anti-thugs solution then decked out ettins. Sure you can make them work, but at a larger gem cost then other alternatives, they are just not an efficent choice gem-wise (N too!).

[Sajuuk]

Since I have joined 2 EDM MP and its all 60-70 turns now, here's my feed back:

Zmey:they are very good raiders in mid games. They can easily take down 20+ pd, they can fly, and spell like mind hunt or soul slay have to success 3 times. Even a teleport sc may be tear down before he/she cast self buff. "May be", though, so I wont risk them in late games, following army as thugs would be enough. In one game TC have summoned about 12 zmeys but been hunted down by abysia one by one.

Shishi can kill a tartarian titan! But in other occasion, it is not so impressed.

Cyclops: It may be a good sc, but seems people who summon it would prefer to use it as E3 mage to cast armies of XX or earthquake

Wendigo: As sc, it is not as powerful as many other summons. But it is eventually a D4 mage! D4=cheap tartarian summoner! 24W is so cheap that you can even mass it as life drain/skelly spam/undead mastery caster

Asynja: Very powerful raider of cause, but i have to say i'm disapointed when three of them been swarmed by devils, summer lions and even Scorpion beasts.....Anyway, not a good sc doesnt means its not a good A mage. With a high chance to be A3, it is an excellent BE caster for non air nations.

Grendelkin: It is a surprise that they can be so powerful. True, they dont perform well as raiders, but followed with an army, they are excellent anti-sc OR SC. give them some anti sc weapons, few sc could stand against their strength, while give them a midget smasher, and buff quickness, its.....terrible. In one game two player summoned about half a dozen each and going to throw them to each other. But on the other game, one player summoned at least a dozen as raiders, yet many been killed by ghost riders.....

Treants are too costy, few people would spent 40N on them. But if you are rich in N while have little difficulty in tartarians(like me in one game, at the brink of destruction), summon them would give you a surprise. Sure they are good raiders when in forest, but following an army they are more powerful, thanks to its multiple weapons. give them a fire brand and a sword of quickness, they can cut down sc like Asynja easily. Oh, did I mention that if you give it a flying carpet, it will able to move while rooted? A bug of cause, which saved a command"change shape"

Will add ember lord and others later

[llamabeast]

Awesome feedback sajuuk, thanks! :)

[DeadlyShoe]

The flying carpet makes perfect sense! You just put it under the soil its rooted in. :]

[Sajuuk]

That would be a huge carpet lol

Why I can't edit my post? Anyway, ember lord, its amazing, perhaps too powerful combined with some tricks:a hydra skin armor for regenaration and a earth boot for summon earth power and invulnerability，or a rime hauberk for cold immune even after cast stone skin, and a "ice&fire" aura for double fatigue damage, or something give it berserker so that it won't rout before its pheonix pyre fully utilized....A obvious effect is it greatly improve the priority of eternal pyre, in one game 3 players try to control it, though in the end it was replaced by a maelstrom. It costs 60 gems, less than 2 zmey, so if not in desperate condition people will surely same gem for them rather than summon dozens of zmey like TC in one game. Poor tc, his enemy abysia now have 7 fully geared ember lords, and able to summon 2 every 3 month due to a site.

mechanical man: Seems nobody construct them except ma agartha——80 HP makes it worth trying. However, his giants were cutted into pieces by hundreds of samurai along with some marble oracle. I dont know if it is because he didn't equip them well. 12 mr is also a deadly flaw when someone try to use opposition, control or disintegrate against it

Ettin: 3 weapon with 6 ambidextrous, relatively high attack and considerable strength, it would be an excellent anti sc while quicken, but it seems hard to survive swarm of chaff when try to get close to enemy sc. Or we can give it 3 shield and a boot of behemoth, but a trampler can hardly be useful when you have reach enchantment 7...Maybe someone have summoned one or two just in case, but others just ignore it. I summoned one in one game, but so far only give it a crown of ivy king AND a ivy crown to summon vine man free chaff as ivy lord 3.....

true fire bird: I don't know if some one have it. maybe only those who have too many F or really need free solar brilliance will summon it.

roc: I use to think it is much less useful compare to shishi, but actually its seige and patrol bonus alone worth more than 18 gems.....flying and deep striking seige engines can tear down your multiple castles in one turn......

kraken: so far no real feat done by them.....

[Sajuuk]

Speaking of magical diversity, just a summon provide diversity will be too easy comparing tartarians——tartarians need not only luck on path distribution but also luck on creature type,difficulty in getting high D and N path as well as gem incom, and hardest of all, possess goh or chalice. Otherwise you can only pray that the next tart are not feebleminded.

One solution I have suggested before is tarts cannot be healed, or at least much harder to be healed so that no overwhelming advantage for those who control GOH or chalice.

Now I have a new idea inspired by djinn: An artifect that cost highly(25 or 40gems for instance) .It functions like magic lamp that must be equiped and "summoned", and get a mage with random path, or one of several mages with different random paths. The artifect are unique but the mages are not, so when the mages been summoned, the artifect can be forged by anyone again.

Or it can also be a item of construction 6 rather than artifect, costly and maybe even cannot recieve forge bonus if modded availible. When summon from this item, only a chance to get a diverse-pathed mage, otherwise it summons useless chaff.


Another idea is inspired by rlyeh void gate and a mod I used to see: A GE, or a unique summon which is immobile, pathless, or an artifect. Anyway, its name is "summoning portal" or whatever, and while GE is active,or the summoned "portal" is alive and performing its own order(like summon allies), or the artifect is equiped and performing the order it provide(like opening gate), then mages of random path will constantly/occasionally show up in your capital. This method is harder to get mages than previous one.

Or expand the summoned unit idea: Its a non unique pathless immoble unit called "summoning portal" which also have chance to summon mages of diversed path, but the "portal" itself will be "closed" any turn just function like a doom horror disappears

[Finalgenesis]

Mech giant has 40 hp or close to it, Agartha (MA) has a golem aura that gives constructs a hp bonus under its dominion (like prophet / gift of health, higher the better, that drains away slowly outside of its dominion), so things like gargoyles and mech giants has greatly enhanced hp there, could it be that? Indeed, it has great weaknesses along with its great strength.

[WraithLord]

I have used Ettins in SP only. What with no hammers and bad starting equip and high enc. they are serviceable but don't shine. Perhaps a tad expensive for what you get. Which is not necessarily bad for not all magic variants should be the same (i.e. Fire shines in evo. Death in summons etc).

I saw Shishis in action in MP. They are right on the mark. SC wise they're a glass cannon. i.e. can kill a SC but OtOH die to numbers of lesser units (like GR). They serve to fill a much needed lack in this niche.

No idea re. the rest, never had the chance to see or use them.

[GrudgeBringer]

What paths are needed for the Grendlkind?

[TheConway]

[opens dominions 3, starts game with EDM, goes to research menu, finds "Call Grendelkin" and looks at paths required]

OH **** LOOK WHAT I JUST DID!

[Jarkko]

[opens dominions 3, starts game with EDM, goes to research menu, finds "Call Grendelkin" and looks at paths required]

OH **** LOOK WHAT I JUST DID!

Well, well, isn't that a sombre way to give an answer? Useless, rude, and nonsensical. You know, some people actually can't play games always, like at work, but that still doesn't stop one from pondering the game for example under lunch-hours.

The answer to Grudgebringers question: Water3, Earth3. It is an Enchantment8 spell.

[PriestyMan]

[opens dominions 3, starts game with EDM, goes to research menu, finds "Call Grendelkin" and looks at paths required]

OH **** LOOK WHAT I JUST DID!

Well, well, isn't that a sombre way to give an answer? Useless, rude, and nonsensical. You know, some people actually can't play games always, like at work, but that still doesn't stop one from pondering the game for example under lunch-hours.

The answer to Grudgebringers question: Water3, Earth3. It is an Enchantment8 spell.


good point..... oh wait. it's actually even FASTER to click about 3 times and get to the EDM mod thread on this forum and look on the first post. what a thought

[Jarkko]

Well, isn't this qute. First Sombre shows up to troll this thread, then Frozen Lama follow. Didn't both of you mention you would never again get to these forums? You should ask the admins to let you have your old accounts back, no need to hide behind silly alts, is there? Or if you can't be bothered to do that, may I please ask you two to stop spewing your bile here? You can, after all, swim in your own more sombre poison pit as much as you want.

[llamabeast]

I don't think you're right Jarkko. In any case your posts have been far more unpleasant than theirs. People on most forums tend to point out when a question could have been easily answered by the questioner. Not that it wouldn't have been more helpful to just answer, but I think you're overreacting.

Anyway, please let's not let this thread get off topic. Any further comments people have on the EDM are extremely welcome. QM is planning to release a new version of CBM quite soon, and we will work together on any changes to the included version of CBM. So if anyone has any thoughts or suggestions on changes or balance, now is the ideal time (I will probably be making notes on comments and considering changes in the next few days).

[Jarkko]

I don't think you're right Jarkko. In any case your posts have been far more unpleasant than theirs. People on most forums tend to point out when a question could have been easily answered by the questioner. Not that it wouldn't have been more helpful to just answer, but I think you're overreacting.
I may be overreacting, and I apologise for that. However, PriestyMan *is* Frozen Lama. PriestyMan took over FL's positions in all MPs, PriestyMan has a habit of signing his messages "-FL", not to mention that it is rather easy to check what IP he is using :) Likewise, Conman, err... I mean TheConway, is Sombre. I don't believe the admins (or you llamabeast :) ) would be so stupid they haven't figured it out a long time ago (you know, if somebody really wanted to be a bit more careful about revealing their true identity, they would take measures to prevent people checking what IP they are using when posting/messaging under different names ;) ), and why measures haven't been taken is beyond me. Perhaps these banned people were given a second chance as long as they behave? Maybe I did step over the line by "revealing" them, and if I need to be reprimanded for that then that is what needs to be done. But I for one would not want to see the bile throwing start again when somebody asks a honest question.

But indeed, enough of this poo. Good to hear a new version of EDM is coming with CBM, hopefully the nature summons become worthwhile then :)

[TheConway]

I'm Sombre? I like to think I'm rather happier than that poor fellow.

Comment on EDM: For the most part it seems the purpose of the summons is more in line with utility/light thugability rather than true SCing. The only summon really capable of being a tart-level SC is the Ember Lord, which is quite good. Other than that, they seem to be much more useful in combination with armies, or as forging/ritual/siege support. The Asynja is decent as a light raider and occasional RoS caster, and the treelord has some promise if it cost less/other gemtype.

[Amhazair]

Well, we've passed turn 60 in the game I'm playing with EDM, so I guess I have enough of a sample size to provide some feedback.

Roc: Too expensive and not powerful enough to use in battle, I think his role is limited to mobile sieger. (And patroller when you happen to not be sieging anything.) He's less efficient gem-wise than Gate-cleavers, but without the hammer discount the difference is small, and sometimes you just have more air gems lying around. Also, you don't have to choose between using a useful unit for the sole purpose of carrying the gate cleaver, or giving it to someone expendable, who might die from an earthquake or other battlefield-wide effect. I summoned one to help with a siege, then promply lost him to an AI Niefelheim counterattack while he was flying over. :D

Shishi's: The cheapest teleport capable raiders you can get, and strong enough to clear out any amount of PD. Also beefy enough and capable of inficting a decent amount of damage to use as part of bigger armies. I have not seen them fare well against other thugs though, even being pounded into the dust time and again by Raksharaja's, who, as demons, should be their prefered targets. (Note that the Raksharaja's were fully kitted out though, so probaly represented a bigger gem investment than a Shishi, on top of their gold cost.)

Asynja's: I haven't seen them get much love, but I like them. (Allthough it might have something to do with being a sucker for air magic, while not really enjoying most of the heavy-air nations in the game, so any summon with air magic gets my vote.) Those with at least 1E can be used as heavy duty SC's/bruisers with all the earth and air buffs, or, alternatively, teleporting RoS casters. Possibly with the use earth boots. Those with at least one extra air pick can form the core of army-busting "Wrathful skies + a few heavy duty bruisers" squads. I see less use for those who only get blood and/or death picks, unless you need to break into blood magic. With enough boosters A/B gets you a Robe of the Magi though.

Ember Lords: In one word: Awesome. They carry a hefty price tag, but they're the kings of the battlefield. Give them earthboots (not mandatory, but recommended in many situations) and enough reinvigoration and script Phoenix Pyre, earthpower, iron will (if needed) and invulnerability (or a less fatiguing iron skin if you're not afraid of lightning.) With appropiate resists they'll survive anything.

Zmey: Not very impressed. Too expensive for chaff clearing, and while they might be able to kill a medium-level SC it's very hit and miss and they're vulnerable to SC's themselves so I wouldn't use them in an anti-sc role unless you're desperate. Mostly conjecture and watching other peaples Zmey's performances though, didn't use them myself in MP.

Firebird: No opinion for now.

Wendigo: Excellent for their price. (Which obviously take into account the wait for them to grow up.) With quickness and Soul-Vortex can do lots of damage to both strong targets or masses of troops depending on their equipment. They are somewhat vulnerable to heavy hitters though. I lost one to a Zmey, and another to Lankan Sacreds. Can also take over the Kokyatids W gem to D mage conversion role if you're not pressed for time.

Grendelkin: They look good to me on paper, but allthough I have summoned a few they haven't seen heavy action yet. They look perfectly suited to accompany armies, both to take out opposing SC's (Gloves of the Gladiator!) and as damage sink.

Kraken: Not used yet. I'll withhold judgement untill I'm ever involved in an underwater war and have to decide if I want to spend my W gems on them or something else.

Mechanical Giant: Pronounced strengths and weaknesses, and as such somewhat situational. Stay away from anyone capable of casting opposition, but useful if either you or your opponent want(s) to dominate the battlefield with the mass-elemental damage enchants. Low hit points will allways make their use risky, but they are cheap. I used mine fully equiped, (and they died, after doing some nice stuff and some sucky stuff) but am now wondering about using them as disposable thugs with minimal equipment. Early pseudo-SC for people rushing for artifacts. If MA Agarthan Dominion works as reported the hp hike takes them into true SC levels, as long as you stay away from opposition. (the spell that is)

Cyclops: I sank a ton of earth-gams into gate cleavers and even siege-golems for a remote-distance campaign, so haven't tried them yet. I haven't quite figured out what to use them for yet.

Ettin: No natural armor, no resistances, no magic, and lowish MR. They'll die to something whatever you do. 3 arms, high strength and decent attack skill seem to indicate a role of anti-SC, but they lack the teleportation to catch them on their own, and if you use them in an army they'll die whatever you do. (Possibly after killing thier target, but they will die.) Gem-sink for the unwary, stay away. (Regardless of cost decrease. Make them free, and the gems to equip them for SC-killing would probably still make them not worth it.)

Treant: As most others have said before: don't have spare nature gems, haven't used.

[GrudgeBringer]

C'mon PM, no sense in dogpiling, I actually expect more from you.

Conway/Sombre/whoever...We got into it within 2 weeks of me joining this community and I told you then I didn't need your type of help, sarcastic, demeaning, and mostly full of S***. I honestly still feel the same way now, so jump somebody else. And your sure welcome to ban me from the other forum if you feel up to it.

I have not played the endgame diversity mod as I have been on the wagon so to speak for a while. I thought the Grindle was kinda neat and wanted to read up about it, but honestly didn't know know how/where/etc. If you think they are beneath you, or you don't have the time, or perhaps just don't want to...THEN DON'T ANSWER THE F******* QUESTION!!

Let others who feel more inclined to help do it.

Thanks Jarkko, it is/was much appreciated.

PM, you know I don't mess about with computers much, and I need to ask questions to get directed in the right direction. It kind of suprised me you responed like that.

[llamabeast]

Have you found what you need now GB? The Endgame Diversity Mod thread in the Mods and Maps subforum should contain all the info you need (plus pictures!).

Amhazair - thanks!

[Ragnars Wolves]

Wow, that is great...

It really helps a lot and answers a lot of my questions also!!

[TheConway]

C'mon PM, no sense in dogpiling, I actually expect more from you.

Conway/Sombre/whoever...We got into it within 2 weeks of me joining this community and I told you then I didn't need your type of help, sarcastic, demeaning, and mostly full of S***. I honestly still feel the same way now, so jump somebody else. And your sure welcome to ban me from the other forum if you feel up to it.

I have not played the endgame diversity mod as I have been on the wagon so to speak for a while. I thought the Grindle was kinda neat and wanted to read up about it, but honestly didn't know know how/where/etc. If you think they are beneath you, or you don't have the time, or perhaps just don't want to...THEN DON'T ANSWER THE F******* QUESTION!!

Let others who feel more inclined to help do it.

Thanks Jarkko, it is/was much appreciated.

PM, you know I don't mess about with computers much, and I need to ask questions to get directed in the right direction. It kind of suprised me you responed like that.

Okay, I'm sorry for being rather harsh, but even someone who isn't really quick with computers should be able to use google, or start up a simple practice game to check, or click back a page or two in the maps/mods section. Posting questions that are truly easy to answer oneself communicates itself to me as laziness, and continually claiming computer illiteracy as an excuse makes it seem like you have no desire/made no effort to learn.

This drives me up a wall because overall I tend to see the dom3 community as being composed of reasonably intelligent people, especially in comparison to most internet gaming communities.

And for the record, I'm not sombre, really. I haven't posted in hardly any of his mod threads, made almost no posts in that forum entirely IIRC, and that would be a rather strange behavior of his would it not?

[GrudgeBringer]

Maybe I should make it more to the point concerning my knowledge of computers (or lack there of).

I honestly just don't get it when it comes to electronics...

Put me in the dirt with a brush and a trowel and I might find you an artifact of a civilazation that might have actually worshipped some of the creatures in this game. I don't believe this game takes that much intelligence to play (although it seems everyone on here is very smart). It does take the dedication to keep abreast with every nuance, new mod, and hours to play test games (which I have never even learned how to load that mod).

I believe that I have the tactical and strategic skill to play this game as well as anyone up until about turn 50 or so, and then it is over my head.

I just don't have the time or effort to put into this game owning 2 small companies, traveling to play Rugby 5 months out of the year and Playing on a traveling tournement softball team 4 more months out of the year.

So, I ask questions in order to semi keep up with you guys. I know it irks a lot of people when they seem simple and have been talked about over and over. But please remember, I don't have the time to be on here and read all the posts, or even 1/4 of them. All I ask is that someone with some knowledge answer or point me in a direction. The rest I will have to figure out myself. If those that find it tiresome don't reply, I have no problem with that. If no one answers, I have no problem with that either. Being berated for trying to stay on here so you guys can beat on me and be semi competitive, I do have a problem with that. Just ignore me and go on with your business. Why take the time to constantly tell me that I should be looking here or there? It just takes away from your time better spent and it isn't going to do any good anyway.

I hope this explains it and excuse me if I went a little over the top...bad day at work.:(

[Squirrelloid]

Can we stop the personal attacks.

Did Grudge ask an easy-to-answer question? Sure. Does that mean he deserved to be attacked by a couple of people? Not at all. It doesn't hurt to answer the easy questions. And its not inappropriate to ask them either, nor does it harm the forum in any way.

Now, there's not necessarily anything wrong with the 'here's where you can find the information' responses in content. You might not remember the answer off the top of your head either. But the tone of 'i can't believe you're asking this' is way out of line.

Of course, Jarkko doesn't help much by being aggressive himself, which perpetuates the nonsense. But seriously, everyone chill, take 5 minutes, and then be civil. Not that I mind a good troll-fest over something ridiculous, but try not to direct your ire at someone who's clearly not keen on participating.

[GrudgeBringer]

Squirrel.....your right, no need to keep a running gun battle going. My apologies to everyone and I hope my explanation was enough to take some of the ire out of answering my very basic questions.

I will not participate any longer with this argument.

Jarkko, I still thank you for taking the time to answer my question.:up:

[Executor]

Treants, I find it somewhat weird that treants are more expensive than treelords.
Even with a small decrise in price they will still not be used as nature gems are very precious.
So maybe split their cost into another path, say earth. 20N and 20E for a treant?

Now Zmey, I personally find them unusable. First time I summoned one I didn't even notice the extra forms as it died in a single turn against Jotun militia and a few non commander banes. They might be worth occasionally as anti SC if you place horned helmets, burning pearl, a strength item and a stone bird. But I don't know, I've still had mine lose to simple PD.

Shinyas, I changed my mind about those after I got my ars whooped a few times. They seem to fair well as anti thuggish, SC's types, but lack item slots, or is it sloths?:P, to make them widely usable, durable.

Ember Lords, heh, great. As Amhazir said you just need some elemental resistances, reinvig and regeneration (which is manageable) and they can hardly get killed.

Cyclops, I think they're nice, good HP, good prot, can self reinvigorate to eliminate that start fatigue. Can be used for magic and for fighting. Decent for the price. They're pretty much the same as the Cyclops pretender.

Asynjas, I love those. I love anything you can thug out, teleport and sneak around! If I played Cealum and go as far as making one an assassin. An SC assassin, now that would be nice, wasteful, but nice :)
And every once in a while you'll hit a good cross path. In any case they're good for the price, and if you're too late for ERoys.

Firebird, never summoned one, never think I will. Too fragile and can't really be used as a caster I think. Maybe a slight boost in fire or a bonus of sort?

Wendigo, pretty nice if you can afford to wait around. Can do the fighting and the spell casting too.

Grendelkin, hmm, boxers! Giving them anything but the gloves of the gladiator is a crime! They're excellent at supporting armies and killing almost any kind of SC, but I wouldn't risk them by sending them out alone. They do have good protection, and HP, and you can even boost their MR very high, but elemental damage will still kill them instantly.

Ettin, crap. Too expensive and unusable in any situation. You can't thug them out, they'll die to just about anything even with full armor, very low MR, just really bad...

Roc, never used one, Wall Shaker/Horn or something like that is still cheaper. Doe the cloud trapezing part is nice. :)

Kraken, they're a bit hard with being an underwater summon and all, and still you need to place amulet of the fish if you want them on land, which leaves only the head and one misc left I think? They are hard to use in battle, can't reinvigorate themselves as they only have E1, and you can't place a booster, no bloodstones anymore. You have W3 but can't cast even quickness due to fatigue, and B1 gives you nothing, both for fighting or for spell casting, just an expensive blood hunter. I guess a reverse communion can be used on a Kraken with them having B1, but you need to drag along mages and blood slaves, and I think the blood communion has very high fatigue right? Which would make it unusable even with a communion other than as a very expensive spell caster.
They can't even be used as potent battle mages as W3 doesn't give you much.
I can only see them being used in water with a water bracelet, water power and casting shark attack and stuff.

Mehanical giant, no opinion, never used one.

[Jarkko]

So maybe split their cost into another path, say earth. 20N and 20E for a treant?
Can't do that. Spells can require different paths, but use one sort of gem only (ie not similar to crafting items, which can use different gems).

I whole heartedly agree with your comments on the nature summons, as I have from the very first day. The nature summons in EDM are useless and overpriced.

In my opinion the True Firebird is useless if you can not cast Phoenix Pyre. Even with PP not very useful IMO, a unique summon that is practically impotent against its "main" target (undeads tend to be supported by death mages -> death mages will just fatigue with shadowbolt/blast netherbolt/dart the bird to cinders in a couple rounds). It needs an army for support to survive death-mages, and if you have an army then you don't want to use PP or have the army go blind :p Works as a solo raider against PD, but then again what doesn't?

[Executor]

So maybe split their cost into another path, say earth. 20N and 20E for a treant?
Can't do that. Spells can require different paths, but use one sort of gem only (ie not similar to crafting items, which can use different gems).

Ah, I stand corrected, I forgot about that. But I fear that will render Treants obsolete from almost any game.:(

[Calahan]

Just a quick post to say that the Firebird is a good EDM summon in my opinion, just as long as you realise it shouldn't ever go into battle. As if you are sending it to battle, then it likely is pure rubbish.

Since if you read the description, it will tell you that the Firebird "encourages good events" (or something like that). Which indeed it does, as I had it for the last 20+ in Prep2, and I had at least a dozen good events in the province I kept him in, and not a single bad one either (with Misf2 scales). So if you can get the Firebird, then there's a fair chance it'll pay for itself with good events pretty quickly. Especially if you have Misf2 scales.

I think some players need to realise that not every single summon in the game is designed to head to the battlefield. Blood-random Asynja's for example would likely never leave a lab in my kingdom, since they'd be too busy summoning Storm Demons. (unless I needed them as part of a communion)

(Edit)
The value of a lot of summons depends entirely on the nation and on the situation. Some nations will find a certain summon useless, while others will find them invaluable. Shishi's are a good example of this IMO (and I reckon their stats/price is pretty much spot-on right now). As to a nation without any magic phase raiders, they are likely worth their weight in gems. But to someone like Eriu, they are nothing more than a luxurious expense. So judging a summon out of the context of its surroundings isn't always the correct way of establishing its relative value. At least IMO.


Also @ Amhazair - Death random Asynja's are great because they can cast Winds of Death or (especially) Wailing Winds. Granted, if you're a nation like LA Caelum then you likely don't care about getting access to A/D paths. But if you haven't got A/D paths already, then A/D Asynja's are pretty sweet :)

[Amhazair]

Also @ Amhazair - Death random Asynja's are great because they can cast Winds of Death or (especially) Wailing Winds. Granted, if you're a nation like LA Caelum then you likely don't care about getting access to A/D paths. But if you haven't got A/D paths already, then A/D Asynja's are pretty sweet :)Hmmm, not a bad point. I have to say I've never yet used either of those two spells, nor had them used against me. (And people call me a vet. Sheesh!) I think one of my Asynja's has a D pick. (Along with the earth I was using him for.) Gona see if I can think of a good situation to experiment in.

[Baalz]

Firebird has a great niche of destroying big undead armies using only a low number of fire gems and relatively low level conjuration research. Just don't use them by themselves, obviously. Use it with guys you don't care about going blind (chaff, guys with recuperation, PD) and SCs with high MR and it can be a great bang for the buck when a huge C'tis or Ermorian army shows up and you've not got the mages/research to drop the classic goto spells for that situation. Handy for countering an opponent who is beating you over the head with darkness to.

[Sajuuk]

Since quest for firebird is a unique spell, hardly a nation truely need it can afford the risk of waste....

[Numahr]

On krakens:

I tend to differ with the general opinion. Kraken is, I think, a very cost-efficient super-thug. It does not have slots... but then it does not need some to provide good army support. Amulet of fish, RoR and a reinvig item is enough, then cast stone/iron skin, quicken self, maybe breath of winter/ fire resistance (you have it through E-W combo) if needed, et voila. Multiple AP attacks provided by tentacles is really like a good magical weapon already and combines very well with quicken self, stone or iron skin and good HP removes the need for magic armor, one reinvig. item is enough to deal with fatigue as encumbrance is low.

If you plan to fight SC rather than armies, you can replace reinv. item by a cheap attack of strength bonus which works well with the 8 tentacle attacks by round.

Healing afflictions is a plus to ensure a good return on investment, as when you are opposed with Black Bow or just regular battle wounds.

Of course not the most powerful SC you can find... but for the price in gems, a very efficient one, IMHO.

[sansanjuan]

On krakens:

I tend to differ with the general opinion. Kraken is, I think, a very cost-efficient super-thug. It does not have slots... but then it does not need some to provide good army support. Amulet of fish, RoR and a reinvig item is enough, then cast stone/iron skin, quicken self, maybe breath of winter/ fire resistance (you have it through E-W combo) if needed, et voila. Multiple AP attacks provided by tentacles is really like a good magical weapon already and combines very well with quicken self, stone or iron skin and good HP removes the need for magic armor, one reinvig. item is enough to deal with fatigue as encumbrance is low.

If you plan to fight SC rather than armies, you can replace reinv. item by a cheap attack of strength bonus which works well with the 8 tentacle attacks by round.

Healing afflictions is a plus to ensure a good return on investment, as when you are opposed with Black Bow or just regular battle wounds.

Of course not the most powerful SC you can find... but for the price in gems, a very efficient one, IMHO.

... and you get to say "RELEASE THE KRAKEN!" in a dramatic, moving voice. ;)
ssj

PS Got me thinking if there are any SCs where you could make a case to empower them with some path. Granted there are other things to spend gems on but there could be special circumstances that might trump the opportunity loss.

[yandav]

I've just finished a MP game in which I was at war against Machaka who was relying on a lot of ember lords. I've sent a lot of anti-SC to counter them and 3/4 of them got blind while fighting the ember lords (the ember lords where alone and they didn't hold an eye shield).
Is it just bad luck or does the ember lords have some kind of special capacity?

[Sajuuk]

Are you sure no other mage casting blindness? No eyebow and no solar brilliance been casted?

[Kobal2]

The Ember Lords could have been packing Eye Shields as well. Fairly common and nasty SC gear.

[Num]

My Ember Lords had some Eyeshields, some sorcerers were scripted on spamming Blindness, and a Firebird was wandering around. I guess all of that have destroyed some fragile eyes.

[Immaculate]

Can ember lord go underwater?

[PriestyMan]

do you have any idea what testing means? its what SP is for

[Immaculate]

I've always founds this community to be friendly and helpful. Thank you priestyman for your concise and generously helpful response.

[llamabeast]

Ember Lords can't go underwater, unless they're given a water breathing item. You can see they don't have the "amphibian" symbol. However they're not utterly un-underwaterable, like Air Queens or vampires.

[Immaculate]

and lords of elemental fire- thats why i asked... i thought it might be similar

[Stretch]

Ettins are fun as an early thug that you can turn into a decent anti-thug. It's got basic resistances and great ambidexterity so if you've got some blood slaves you can give it 3 flesh eaters and a warrior ring and have it do a pretty good at guarding a sideline or backing up another thug to take out an SC. It's also handy with a lucky amulet as a cheap throwaway to counter life-for-a-life spam (targets highest HP unit).

Krakens are a great unit for a non-water nation to jump into the water with. They have decent some base resistances, high HP, good attack against high-defense or high-prot units, recuperation and can handle raiders very well. If you get 2 of them you barely even need to bother with reinvigoration unless someone's making a serious push into the water. Luck amulet + girdle of might + antimagic amulet work well, especially with earth picks where you can ironskin + holdx4 + attack