Question Re Red, Blue and Green OOBs

[Mobhack]

I was wondering does anybody actually use these generic OOBS at all?

They were set up do those who wanted to could say, roll thier own army for WW2 with a bit of mobhacking.

But if nobody ever has used them then they may be more useful for other things.

Like Blue-> special DAK subset of German OOB for Desert+Tunisia
Green -> ?

(Red is I think useful for Balkan groups versus each other already. Serbs vs Chetniks)

Andy

[Cross]

Andy,

I'm not certain, but I don't specifically recall anyone using the generic OOB.

Is the idea to free up some of the German OOB (which have about 990 out of 1000 used) or just to add a German North Africa OOB?

I guess the DAK would be similar to the USMC who have their own OOB. Sounds like a good idea.

As for 'Green', I know a few New Zealanders and Australians who would love to have their own OOB. Even if the OOB were almost identical, it's more a matter of national identity.

Cross

[Mobhack]

Andy,

I'm not certain, but I don't specifically recall anyone using the generic OOB.

Is the idea to free up some of the German OOB (which have about 990 out of 1000 used) or just to add a German North Africa OOB?

I guess the DAK would be similar to the USMC who have their own OOB. Sounds like a good idea.

As for 'Green', I know a few New Zealanders and Australians who would love to have their own OOB. Even if the OOB were almost identical, it's more a matter of national identity.

Cross

The idea of a DAK OOB is not to free up German OOB units, but to give a completely new sub-OOB (one could then add the elite Italian forces associated with them perhaps - ARIETE division and so forth, with better base stats).

Germany would be difficult to untangle, so the base OOB would be left alone - e.g. for those who want to progress after the DAK goes into the bag at Tunisia.

ANZAC is a small enough OOB and scenario set, that the Kiwis could be split off (Existing scenarios, AI pick list, extracting the batlocs from the existing ANZAC mixture). Oz could remain as the same OOB ID, renamed and re-flagged.

South Africa might be a worthwhile addition, too. None of the other Commonwealth countries really need splitting off as they are too small, and can remain subsumed in the UK or Indian OOBs.

Bolivia and Paraguay 30-35 might be worth incorporating (this is an outside chance!) - but they did fight for 5 years in the Chaco war. There were even 3 Vickers 6 ton tanks used there.

Brazil, Portugal and so on - those who did send some troops to aid the Allies in Italy in the last few months, probably do not justify their own OOBs. if required, then they can be as scenarios using the USA OOB as usually re-equipped with Allied weaponry. I am not really sure if these nation's expeditionary forces justify the hassle of maintaining a full OOB.

Mongolia did have its own forces - but they acted as an adjunct of the Red army. Probably can remain subsumed in same.

Same goes for the various Chinese warlords - the Nationalist China OOB does for them really.

Ethiopia/Abyssinia is probably worth an addition as they fought the Italians for quite a while though.

Denmark is another not worth doing as an OOB - they capitulated (sensibly) with no significant fighting. Any OOB for them would really be a "what if".

Red will be left as-is to cover the various Balkan nations (including Albania).

The various little Baltic countries like Latvia, Estonia and so on really only provided auxiliary troops to major players, so not worth their own OOBs.

I cannot really think of any nations that actually participated in WW2, or fought a 'real' war 1930-46 that we have missed. But someone out there may know of a real conflict that we have not covered in that time frame?.

"What if" nations are a different case, but I am not really interested in those. So no "what if Eire joined with the Axis" or "What if Hitler invaded Switzerland" stuff.

Cheers
Andy

[DRG]

Bolivia and Paraguay 30-35 might be worth incorporating (this is an outside chance!) - but they did fight for 5 years in the Chaco war. There were even 3 Vickers 6 ton tanks used there.


Wow... three tanks :)

OK.. how many people actually play infantry heavy games ?? ( seriously. if you like to PBEM or solo mainly infantry.. let us know )

HOW MANY PEOPLE BOTHER WITH SPANISH CIVIL WAR BATTLES ?? I'll bet less than 2% of the players have bothered and, IMHO the only thing adding Bolivia and Paraguay to the game would give us is bragging rights to say we are the only wargame ever to do so.

My 2 cents.

Don

[Mobhack]

Bolivia and Paraguay 30-35 might be worth incorporating (this is an outside chance!) - but they did fight for 5 years in the Chaco war. There were even 3 Vickers 6 ton tanks used there.


Wow... three tanks :)

OK.. how many people actually play infantry heavy games ?? ( seriously. if you like to PBEM or solo mainly infantry.. let us know )

HOW MANY PEOPLE BOTHER WITH SPANISH CIVIL WAR BATTLES ?? I'll bet less than 2% of the players have bothered and, IMHO the only thing adding Bolivia and Paraguay to the game would give us is bragging rights to say we are the only wargame ever to do so.

My 2 cents.

Don

Pretty much my thoughts on the matter - I had never heard of that not so little war till I was browsing wackypedia the other day. So I just chucked in as a debating point.

Andy

[Sgt_Walrus]

Hi Guys
Thanks as always for your great work.

Sometimes when creating PBEM tournaments, and some one off battle, Green and Red can be very handy for having a 'neutral' flag, as such, that you can then add to with the Allies button. Sometime we set up using these Flags so we can have an unlimited choice from all OOB with no 'nation' being set as the start point.

To be fair, it is quite occasional, and I don't think I have ver used "Blue" for anything in PBEM.

As for NZ splitting off from the ANZAC OOB...Hurrah!
I would back that 100%
Maybe you could incorporate the Fijian Brigade into the NZ OOB as it was operational from Guadalcanal time as scouting force in the Pacific, mostly with NZ, Brit and Aussi officers.
Obviously then you could have the Maori Battalion represented separately as well, which would be excellent.

Obviously there were many more similarities than real differences in the OOBs, and ANZAC has been an excellent way to deal with it up to this point...but a NZ OOB by itself would be quite special.
If you could spare the tie and hassle...I would surely use it often :-)

Cheers lads!
Jason

[Warwick]

HOW MANY PEOPLE BOTHER WITH SPANISH CIVIL WAR BATTLES
Me, I've played all the Civil War scenarios in the game and will play more if somebody writes more.

Regards,
Warwick

[DRG]

OK fair enough, but I wasn't really focusing on scenarios but rather on regular generated battles and PBEM

Don

[halstein]

Hi.
I play Spanish Civil War from time to time.
Halstein.

[DRG]

It's good to know at least a few players do

Don

[Sgt_Walrus]

Oh...I forgot to add that I also have played quite a few Spanish Civil War PBEM over time.
It would be a shame to lose anything from those very intense OOBs.
It was, after all, quite an important conflict for many reasons.

Thanks as always for your excellent work chaps :you:

[troopie]

I use the Green for South Africa, I've used the Blue for my old Atlantis orbat. I started a Turkey orbat in Red, but gave it up because I couldn't find anything in a language I could read. Currently I use red for a generic guerrilla/irregular warfare orbat.

troopie

[DRG]

Do you have a completed SA OOB?

Don

[wulfir]

OK.. how many people actually play infantry heavy games ?? ( seriously. if you like to PBEM or solo mainly infantry.. let us know )

I do.

In PBEM I like to buy 'realistic' forces, and have played several games with combinations of infantry/artillery/cavalry - particulary as Poland 1939 (bit of a favourite of mine) - in those games for the most part my opponents have brought an enitre Panzer Divisions allotment of Panzer IV tanks and something like Germany's entire 1939 fleet of Sdkfz 251 halftracks to the show.

Expensive tanks and half-tracks can however become a liability as you will be outnumbered by cheap leg units. An important drawback with leg infantry on big maps is the number of turns in your typical PBEM game might not be enough to both battle a mech force and advance (assuming it is a meeting engagement).

[troopie]

Do you have a completed SA OOB?

DonI use the one posted here. After it was officially posted that South Africa would not have an OOB in WinSpww2, I decided to step up and make my own. If you like, I will go over it and make corrections.


http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=29022&highlight=South+African+Orbat

troopie

[DRG]

Let's get this next release out of the way first then we'll take a look at it

Don

[TonyE]

Personaly i find red/blue/green to be one of the most usefull features of the game.
I have used them all the time since i was member of the SPCamo Workshop years ago and up until now (sadly we lost yellow along the way).

I find them great for fictional non-national OBs and as placeholders for national OBs are not included in the game.
Currently me and a friend are prepearing for a looong red-blue (totally modded OBs) team pbem campaign using a mixture of semi-table top strategic maps for moving units around and fighting our battles in the SP-game. Tried and tested before, it works.

I have to say though that i never use these OBs as they come straight with the game, i always use them for brand new modded work.

For me, if space is a premium and it is not possible to add more countries other than by replacing these three, then i would rather retain red/ble/green and have that feature than to add some additional commonwealth clone OBs (no offence to any Kiwis or South Africans)that don`t really add that much more to the game.
The modability has always been one of Steel Panthers strongest features and these non-national OBs really add icing to this "cake".

[Skirmisher]

I have to say though that i never use these OBs as they come straight with the game.


I'm exacly the opposite,I never use modded stuff anymore.

Lot's of work goes into refining the standard OOB's.

[TonyE]

I have to say though that i never use these OBs as they come straight with the game.


I'm exacly the opposite,I never use modded stuff anymore.

Lot's of work goes into refining the standard OOB's.

Just to clearify, in this case i was refering only to red/blue/green, not the other national OBs of the game.

[iCaMpWiThAWP]

I have to say though that i never use these OBs as they come straight with the game.


I'm exacly the opposite,I never use modded stuff anymore.

Lot's of work goes into refining the standard OOB's.

Just to clearify, in this case i was refering only to red/blue/green, not the other national OBs of the game.
Once in a while i build a wunderunit and test it's effect in those oobs(super-heavy armor, ultraguns...)

[Firestorm]

I use them to portray fictional countries or sub-national groups (mercenaries, bandits, rebel groups, cults) in various fantasy/alternate history scenarios that I and some of my friends create to amuse ourselves. And, similar to iCaMpWiThAWP, sometimes I'll get a bit weird with them (robot or alien invaders, for example).

[Mobhack]

I use them to portray fictional countries or sub-national groups (mercenaries, bandits, rebel groups, cults) in various fantasy/alternate history scenarios that I and some of my friends create to amuse ourselves. And, similar to iCaMpWiThAWP, sometimes I'll get a bit weird with them (robot or alien invaders, for example).


Which is pretty much what they were intended for in the first place (roll your own nations) - the default units being merely "fillers" intended for replacement.

I simply wanted to know if folks actually were using them for the intended purpose, or not.

Glad to see that some do :)!

Cheers
Andy

[Firestorm]

I use them to portray fictional countries or sub-national groups (mercenaries, bandits, rebel groups, cults) in various fantasy/alternate history scenarios that I and some of my friends create to amuse ourselves. And, similar to iCaMpWiThAWP, sometimes I'll get a bit weird with them (robot or alien invaders, for example).


Which is pretty much what they were intended for in the first place (roll your own nations) - the default units being merely "fillers" intended for replacement.
I have a four-man cavalry unit in the Blue OOB with very high survivability as well as morale and experience stats (doesn't seem to make him any more bulletproof, any idea how to fix that?). The main armament of this unit is a napalm weapon with a ridiculously large warhead size, accuracy, kill rating, penetration, and range. I use it to single-handedly wipe out the AI's formations. One day I'm going to use it on my niece, just to see how she responds to having literal hellfire brought down on her panzers. :D

[Mobhack]

Survivability is for vehicle crew's bail-out chance (0 being the default, 6 being the best). It does have a marginal affect on all vehicles when penetrated for internal crew damage as the shot pings around the insides of it, too. It has nothing to contribute to other non-vehicle unit classes.

Cavalry vulnerability comes from the size 2 horse, which makes them bullet-fodder (easier to hit as well as spot).

Cheers
Andy

[Roman]

Hello. I have used red and green forces. I made my first small scenario trying to represent a struggle against drug smugglers. For traffickers used OOB red.
There is even a campaign (Mexico Drug War is the 009) using OOB green.
Regards

[TonyE]

I cannot really think of any nations that actually participated in WW2, or fought a 'real' war 1930-46 that we have missed. But someone out there may know of a real conflict that we have not covered in that time frame?.


The Peruvian-Ecuadorian war of 1941 : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecuadorian%E2%80%93Peruvian_War

Involved airpower, paratroops and tanks...and yes i`m really, really digging deep with this one. :D:p

[iCaMpWiThAWP]

I cannot really think of any nations that actually participated in WW2, or fought a 'real' war 1930-46 that we have missed. But someone out there may know of a real conflict that we have not covered in that time frame?.


The Peruvian-Ecuadorian war of 1941 : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecuadorian%E2%80%93Peruvian_War

Involved airpower, paratroops and tanks...and yes i`m really, really digging deep with this one. :D:p
I once played a battle trying to play this same war...

[Tarasque]

Hello everyone, if the boss need them i need them so i fully support Tony the E on that one.
Ecuadorian by the way. :D

[Akmatov]

Realizing the chance is minute, I would vote for a Swiss OOB. They had a modern army and there were invasion plans developed. Would be fascinating to explore.

And while I know there is really no chance, I would also enjoy a Swedish OOB. Same reasons.

[Mobhack]

Realizing the chance is minute, I would vote for a Swiss OOB. They had a modern army and there were invasion plans developed. Would be fascinating to explore.

And while I know there is really no chance, I would also enjoy a Swedish OOB. Same reasons.

Switzerland - use blue or red, whichever generates more mountain batlocs.

This Swedish OOB you are wanting would presumably replace the existing OOB #36, then? The one with the blue flag with a gold cross on it on the battle generator?..

Andy

[Akmatov]

LOL - just logged back on to quickly erase my request for Sweden before anyone read it. I had just realized Sweden is already represented - yep, those guys with the blue flag and the gold cross.

See, this just reinforces the need for Switzerland. If Sweden can make the cut, surely those cheese-making, yodeling bankers should have an OOB!

[zastava128]

I may be able to make a draft version of an Ethiopian OOB some time in the future. I've found some literature, but it contains some significant contradictions, and there's little info on artillery.

It would be an interesting one, though, with feudal levies fighting alongside western-trained Imperial Guardsmen, and weaponry ranging from spears and bows to WW1 tanks and German field guns (provided by Nazi Germany back when they were in bad relations with Fascist Italy).

[gila]

LOL - just logged back on to quickly erase my request for Sweden before anyone read it. I had just realized Sweden is already represented - yep, those guys with the blue flag and the gold cross.

See, this just reinforces the need for Switzerland. If Sweden can make the cut, surely those cheese-making, yodeling bankers should have an OOB!

Here's the major differnces between Sweden and the Swiss in WW2.

Sweden(although neutral) was occupied then later revolted so got involed in the war,where as the Swiss were never occupied,the germans knew the tough swiss and terrian and since they where mostly germanic anyway it was not feasialble to go that way and left them alone.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden_during_World_War_II

[AMX]

Sweden(although neutral) was occupied...

No.
Did you even read your own link?

[DRG]

:rolleyes::doh:

[Ts4EVER]

I guess he was thinking of Norway?

[gila]

I was thinking of norway but some how got sweden mixed up,just call it a senior moment:o
My apolgises to the swedeish members in the forum.

[zastava128]

See, this just reinforces the need for Switzerland. If Sweden can make the cut, surely those cheese-making, yodeling bankers should have an OOB!

Well I have the impression that the designers wanted the game to be more-or-less historically accurate. Hence no Sealion in the German campaign, for example.

If Switzerland was included, one could also make the case to include Turkey (both sides tried to get it to join), or Denmark (what if they had tried to fight?), or Portugal (could have potentially joined the Axis had Franco done so). Personally I don't think any of them are worth doing - they're too "what if".

As for countries that actually did participate in the war, and weren't discussed before:

Albania would be interesting, but good luck finding literature on their equipment.

Croatia was a joint Italian-German puppet state that had some 260,000+ men at peak strength, and also sent troops to the Eastern Front. A few units representing them do exist in the current Yugoslav OOB, and I tried to add more, but it didn't really feel right, and was very confusing. I do have enough material to make a proper custom OOB for them, and will post it sometime in the future.

Ethiopia of course was invaded by Italy, but also had a strong resistance movement that helped the Brits drive the Italians out. Like I said above, I might be able to make some sort of OOB sometime in the future, though information is hard to come by. But a more serious problem is, would they have any chance against the Italians? How would they stop Italian tanks, when 80+ percent of their troops didn't even have Hand Grenades?

Finally, Iran and Iraq both fought against the allies in 1941, but the conflicts were so quick and one sided it's really not worth it.

[troopie]

I once tried to make a Turkish orbat. I found lots of references to the 1930s and 40s, but they were all in Turkish, which I don't read. There's lots in English on the Ottoman army, but that's too early, and plenty on the 1960s and later.

troopie

[TDR]

[
ANZAC is a small enough OOB and scenario set, that the Kiwis could be split off (Existing scenarios, AI pick list, extracting the batlocs from the existing ANZAC mixture). Oz could remain as the same OOB ID, renamed and re-flagged.

Cheers
Andy

That sounds like a nice idea. It would avoid a lot of incorrect mixing post the Aust departure from the ME war zone.
It would allow a bit more detail re the 1st Aust Armoured Div, yes there was one, also the Motor Regts.

[Mobhack]

Realizing the chance is minute, I would vote for a Swiss OOB. They had a modern army and there were invasion plans developed. Would be fascinating to explore.

And while I know there is really no chance, I would also enjoy a Swedish OOB. Same reasons.

See my "Swiss Blue" post in the main OOB thread below the stickys.

(I had a spare afternoon, and looked WW2 Switzerland up - not really very "modern" at all, it seems!)

Andy

[Firestorm]

Yeah, Switzerland didn't really move from a 1918-type arrangement until the 1950's. They're the only ones I know of to still use RT-17s in WinSPMBT.

Speaking of which, is it possible for Red/Green/Blue to do something like what Red does in WinSPMBT and change its picklist, batloc, et. al. based on the date and opponent? Moreover, would it actually be worth doing?


Ethiopia of course was invaded by Italy, but also had a strong resistance movement that helped the Brits drive the Italians out.

I second this suggestion, especially if it means including the Gideon Force.

Like I said above, I might be able to make some sort of OOB sometime in the future, though information is hard to come by.

Some general ideas on what they had:

http://www.comandosupremo.com/forums/topic/5979-the-italian-fascist-invasion-of-ethiopia-1935-36/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethiopian_Order_of_Battle_Second_Italo-Abyssinian_War
http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=156873
http://theminiaturespage.com/news/1208270373
http://aaminis.myfastforum.org/index.php?component=content&topicid=10558

I seem to recall hearing that they received quite a bit of Japanese equipment too, as Japan was one of the only countries to ignore the rather questionable League of Nations embargo against both warring states.


But a more serious problem is, would they have any chance against the Italians? How would they stop Italian tanks, when 80+ percent of their troops didn't even have Hand Grenades?

Stab them with spears.

If reports are to be believed—and I'll believe anything myself— Abyssinian tribesmen units really did thrust spears the vision ports of Italian cv.33's. Sometimes they'd also roll rocks on them or get enough men around one to flip it over.

For the most part, however, any set-piece engagement between Italian tanks and Abyssinian tribesmen are probably going to be massacres, as they were historically.

[zastava128]

Stab them with spears.

If reports are to be believed—and I'll believe anything myself— Abyssinian tribesmen units really did thrust spears the vision ports of Italian cv.33's. Sometimes they'd also roll rocks on them or get enough men around one to flip it over.

I can believe that too. I've read about the Yugoslav partisans doing similar - one partisan officer reportedly captured a CV-33 by charging at it and sticking his pistol into the vision port - the Italians promptly surrendered!

Sadly you can't really implement such things in the game. Though to be fair they probably happened only rarely.

For the most part, however, any set-piece engagement between Italian tanks and Abyssinian tribesmen are probably going to be massacres, as they were historically.

And that's exactly the problem I outlined before. While it's nice to have all the historical OOBs, Ethiopia is very limited because it only ever fought the Italians, and becaue a historically acurate portrayal of their army would not make for very fun games. Playing against an AI-controlled Ethiopia would be a turkey shoot. It's also a very niche thing, and I doubt many people would play it.

In short making a whole OOB would require a lot of work for little payoff. I'm currently (slowly) working on Croatian and Albanian OOBs, but that's mostly form my own use (I'll post them here eventually), and information on those is easier to come by.

If you're willing to try making an Ethiopian OOB though, let me know, and I'll share what information I've found.

[IronDuke99]

For my money ditch the colours and yes please lets have DAK and The South Africans for East Africa, North Africa and Italy.

[troopie]

I use Green for South Africa, Blue for Atlantis, (with workarounds for the Falkhata and Samhara) and Red for partisans, guerrillas and a general Latin American Orbat I think I still have.

troopie