Petty Kingdoms - EA, CBM 1.83, 6 players - Finished

[Valerius]

I've been wanting to try out the latest CBM, in particular how the changes to my favorite nation of TNN play out. As my first post-1.6 game I'm going with very standard settings on this one so I can get a feel for all the changes (and now that tarts have been addressed one of my main reasons for changing settings has been removed :)).


Settings

Age: EA
Players: 6
Banned nations: Hinnom, water nations
Hosting: llamaserver (http://www.llamaserver.net/gameinfo.cgi?game=PettyKingdoms)
Hosting interval: 24 hours up to turn 25, 48 hours up to turn 50, 72 hours from then on
Mods: CBM 1.83 (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=47124)
Map: Sixlands (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=36830)
HoF: 15
All other settings default


Roster

Helheim - Squirrelloid
Mictlan - Samhain
Niefelheim - Huitochka
Tir na n'Og - Valerius
Ulm - Ossa
Yomi - ghoul31

[ghoul31]

Hinnom

[PriestyMan]

I've been wanting to try out the latest CBM, in particular how the changes to my favorite nation of TNN play out. As my first post-1.6 game I'm going with very standard settings on this one so I can get a feel for all the changes (and now that tarts have been addressed one of my main reasons for changing settings has been removed :)).


Settings

Age: EA
Players: 6
Banned nations: Hinnom, water nations
Hosting: llamaserver
Hosting interval: 24 hours up to turn 25, 48 hours up to turn 50, 72 hours from then on
Mods: CBM 1.83 (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=47124)
Map: Sixlands (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=36830)
HoF: 15
All other settings default


Roster

Tir na n'Og - Valerius

you really dont read before posting do you?

[ghoul31]

Ok whatever, you don't have to be a jerk about it.

I'll take Yomi

[Ossa]

Ulm

[Huitochka]

Yeye. Niefelheim.

[Samhain]

I'll take Mictlan.

[Valerius]

Ok, the game is setup on the llamaserver. But no rush to send in your pretenders since we still need one player. Assuming someone signs up today how about we aim to kick things off sometime Monday?

[Squirrelloid]

Oh sure, i need another game. Let me think about nation.

[Valerius]

Ok, sounds good.

Btw, I was just doing some testing and noticed TNN has Song of Power at level 0. I've asked llamabeast if this is an error. If any of you notice possible bugs while testing we can either have house rules to get around them or I could upload a fixed version of CBM if needed.

[Huitochka]

Link to game plox?

[Valerius]

Sure, here it is (http://www.llamaserver.net/gameinfo.cgi?game=PettyKingdoms) (link added to first post as well).

[Squirrelloid]

I shall elect to fail as Helheim, since i'm terribad at thug nations.

[Valerius]

Ugh, a glamour nation? Didn't expect that. Despite usually playing glamour nations I discovered in Battleground that I don't like fighting them. :p

Also, llamabeast confirmed Song of Power being at level 0 was a typo. Unless other issues come to light I think we can get around this without uploading a modified CBM. Song of Power requires N4 and a gem so it shouldn't be a problem to avoid scripting it (duh) and avoid giving my N3 mages enough gems to cast it unscripted until I've actually researched Ench. 6. Any objections?

[Squirrelloid]

Ugh, a glamour nation? Didn't expect that. Despite usually playing glamour nations I discovered in Battleground that I don't like fighting them. :p

Also, llamabeast confirmed Song of Power being at level 0 was a typo. Unless other issues come to light I think we can get around this without uploading a modified CBM. Song of Power requires N4 and a gem so it shouldn't be a problem to avoid scripting it (duh) and avoid giving my N3 mages enough gems to cast it unscripted until I've actually researched Ench. 6. Any objections?

I trust you. Though fixing it would not be hard either.

[Huitochka]

So uh. Where's everybody?

[Valerius]

Well in my case, I was just being indecisive about my pretender. But it's now sent. Perhaps Ossa and Samhain are having the same problem.

[Samhain]

Actually, I had my pretender design finished on Saturday. It's Mictlan. You just give it a F9W9S9 bless and you're done. I had to go through 193 iterations to get a title that I liked though.

[Squirrelloid]

I'm sad that i didn't end up using the frost father with the title 'Lord of Summer' or something like that. He was pretty funny.

[Valerius]

See now, that's maddening - you put some fire magic on your frost father pretender and the game just wants to give it away to other players before your pretender's even on the scene or they've seen a sacred unit being blessed. Occasionally I'd keep creating pretenders - not to get a title I liked, but to get one that didn't give away something I wanted to keep concealed. But with TNN it doesn't matter too much as it's almost as obvious as Mictlan.

Also, I PM'd Ossa regarding sending in his pretender.

[Valerius]

Sorry for the delay in getting started. I PM'd Ossa but he hasn't logged in since Saturday. It seems like he's submitting turns in another game that's on 24 hour hosting so I guess he just hasn't checked the forums. I'll see if someone can get in touch with him using the llamaserver's messages.

[Squirrelloid]

Game on.

*insert obligatory self-congratulatory boasting and projections of future dominance*

[Valerius]

Good, we've started. Otherwise I undoubtedly would have sent in a fourth revision of my pretender. I can't even remember offhand what I ended up with. :rolleyes:

Just a reminder that at the beginning of the game, when turns only take a couple of minutes, if you are last to send in your turn please wait a few minutes for the game to host and then send in your next turn.

[Valerius]

This is ridiculous. My Ri just won the arena a couple of months ago and he's already having to defend his title?

Btw Huitochka, I was lucky you sent a skratti to the first tournament. I was worried it might be a Niefel Jarl with a chill aura and was hoping someone else might take him out before I had to face him.

[Huitochka]

True, he would have better chances. Still, losing Jarl would hurt way more.

[Squirrelloid]

More arena matches! Solely to keep Valerius's Ri occupied =)

[Valerius]

More arena matches! Solely to keep Valerius's Ri occupied =)

That will only occupy one of them. :evil:

Actually, I almost did a very dumb thing and prophetized my arena champion. It would be quite annoying to need him and have him forced to defend his title.

I'm also kind of regretting choosing Sixlands. It's an excellent map, but the territories are very defined and going beyond your "borders" is almost certain to initiate a war. Kind of a waste of the Turbo Tir expansion I had going as I ended up with the same number of provinces I likely would have with a slower rate of expansion. :p

[Squirrelloid]

I'm also kind of regretting choosing Sixlands. It's an excellent map, but the territories are very defined and going beyond your "borders" is almost certain to initiate a war. Kind of a waste of the Turbo Tir expansion I had going as I ended up with the same number of provinces I likely would have with a slower rate of expansion. :p

Or you could just plan on fighting a war early =P

[Valerius]

Or you could just plan on fighting a war early =P

Crazy talk. I can't possibly go to war until I've researched high level magic, fully site searched, put up a couple of globals and have upkeep so high that I can no longer recruit mages.

Though the funny thing is the only time I can remember engaging in anything resembling a rush was also played on Sixlands. Obviously I don't plan on engaging in such reckless behavior again.

[Valerius]

And TNN turn is sent in so we should be hosting momentarily. We've got a nice pace going here. :)

[ghoul31]

I'm having terrible luck site searching. I haven't found one site yet.

[Valerius]

I was wondering about that. I figured you were site searching since your mages keep appearing on our border but your gem graph is staying flat. That's some bad luck, something should have come up by now...

[Squirrelloid]

Helheim would like to make it known to the other nations of the world that it is not necessarily bent on conquest. But this war was started by Mictlan, and we cannot in good conscience allow that sin to go unpunished. Our anger and our wrath shall be righteous, and shall purge the lands of the untrue Mictlanese who would so foolishly raise arms against us.

[Samhain]

Bent or otherwise, your conquest left us no sound option but to attack. A fool may have chosen the same course. But, we would sooner march to war on a fool's errand than cower in a corner waiting our turn to die.

[Huitochka]

Oh well, i realized that i don't like small maps like that, for i had to attack for same reason on some of the first turns, and it looked more like a blitz to me. So sorry everyone if i'm not giving a good fight, but oh well.

[Valerius]

No need to apologize. It looks like you got off to a slow start and then forced into an early war with at least cold-resistant Ulm (maybe Yomi as well?).

Actually so far this is going similar to my first game on Sixlands - early wars in both the north and the south (my previous game I believe they were both 2 vs 1 wars).

I really should have kept that previous experience in mind. Now, after a fast start I'll come out of the first round of wars as the smallest nation. I think I did something wrong there... Oh well, at least I won't be dogpiled as being the biggest threat. :p

[Squirrelloid]

Lo! Ladies of valor // lead the charge
In thick of blades // with barèd steel
To smite the brave // and choose the slain
And deliver all // to death's door.
Yet few who fell // will welcome find,
For but little might // can Mictlan boast;
Pity the unchosen // unwanted above
Hurlèd headlong // through Hela's door;
Demons they praised, // paradise denied,
Torpid to lie // beneath the Tree
and gnaw the roots.

------------------> Lo! Never afraid
Are Odin's girls, // glad at heart
Amidst the slaughter. // Stay not the sword
But fell the foes // who offend the Gods
with divine justice. // Deliver the valiant
To Glasir's Hall // whence harken heroes
With wish fulfilled. // Fair war-maidens,
Death's solace, // ravens steel-clad,
Merciful bearers // of mead and men,
Your spears strike // sound and true;
A fear in the foe // sets them to flee
In ragged rout, // no remorse in chase,
And piled the dead // at dusk's caress
Reach to the stars.


TLDR / Translation: I accidentally the whole Mictlan army

[Valerius]

Wow, poetry no less. I guess you're enjoying Helheim more than those boring skelly spamming lizards you played the last couple of times out? ;)

[Samhain]

I really should have seen the blitz coming myself with map and kept with the strong bless strategy. I tend to find those boring, but least then I would be putting up something of a fight. I'll guess I'll just chalk this one up to experience.

[Valerius]

I was worried about a double/triple bless Mictlan rush before I had gear or research for my thugs. I have to admit that when I saw you had a light bless I almost attacked you myself. But I decided I should forge some gear and complete some research first and by then Helheim had already made a move. If you had gone for a heavy bless it would have made for an interesting fight with Helheim.

[Squirrelloid]

Yomi, if you think i will tolerate you swiping provinces from Mictlan after I did all the work, you are sadly mistaken. If you think Dai Oni even begin to frighten me, you are further mistaken. This is your only chance to withdraw and leave me my rightful conquest or the hammer will fall.

[Valerius]

Kind of an unpleasant surprise when a unit that's always been stealthy for some reason isn't any longer and you accidentally attack someone...

[Valerius]

Also, we've set quite a quick pace and we're already at turn 25 so hosting interval has been changed to 48 hours.

Edit: and reminders set to 12 hours before hosting instead of 6.

[Squirrelloid]

Hey Mictlan, i'm sure this game holds little interest for you at this point, but could you take your turn so we can keep it moving? You can't possibly have that much to do in the game.

[Samhain]

My apologies. I had a long day and didn't get a chance to turn a turn until the evening. But, I try to give due attention to every game I participate in even in my options are limited.

[Samhain]

Hmm, looking at the dates on the emails from llamaserver, that was less than 24 hours between turns on a game with the hosting interval set to 48 hours.

[Squirrelloid]

Hmm, looking at the dates on the emails from llamaserver, that was less than 24 hours between turns on a game with the hosting interval set to 48 hours.

But that day included Sunday =P

Honestly, not sure why we moved to 48h turns already.

[Valerius]

I like to stick with the game description (though occasionally I have to go to a longer hosting interval earlier than planned). And while increasing the hosting interval sometimes means people just delay sending in their turns I don't think that will be the case here given that this group averaged 2 turns/day for the first 25 turns.

[Ossa]

Valerius - that was plain evil.

[Valerius]

I have to admit, it was kind of evil. What can I say? The Tuatha are sneaky types. But for all that, your income hasn't dropped much and you actually added a fort this turn so I'm not sure if I got as much out of the surprise attack as I was hoping for.

On another note, Niefel was eliminated this turn. Thanks for playing, Huitochka.

[Samhain]

Just a warning to those who are anxious, I suddenly find myself with a major turn (my pretender arrived just as my walls were compromised) and no time tonight to work on it. I'll get it in tomorrow evening.

[Squirrelloid]

Just a warning to those who are anxious, I suddenly find myself with a major turn (my pretender arrived just as my walls were compromised) and no time tonight to work on it. I'll get it in tomorrow evening.

Wow, your pretender is quite early. But your walls are finally down. Now, what have you been getting up to...

[Valerius]

It appears a final battle between Helheim and Mictlan involving Mictlan's newly arrived pretender wasn't in the cards. I thought perhaps the arrival of his pretender might help Mictlan stave off Helheim's dominion but it looks like it wasn't enough.

Thanks for playing, Samhain.

[Squirrelloid]

I might have tried fighting if my armies weren't needed elsewhere at the same moment i broke the walls. Not that I expected him to be able to out-produce me on dominion from blood sacrifice.

[Samhain]

I had also hope that my fortune in getting my early pretender arrival would also coincide with some lucky rolls on the dominion battle. At least I wasn't lucky enough. The red candles dropped from 3 to 1 the turn before. But, that didn't translate into 1 white this turn.

Well, thanks for the opportunity to play. Have fun.

[Squirrelloid]

I had also hope that my fortune in getting my early pretender arrival would also coincide with some lucky rolls on the dominion battle. At least I wasn't lucky enough. The red candles dropped from 3 to 1 the turn before. But, that didn't translate into 1 white this turn.

Well, thanks for the opportunity to play. Have fun.

What was your dom score?

You were competing with 2 (temple + 2 slave blood sacrifices), one on either side of you, for a total of 10 temple checks at dom 9, plus my prophet still in the vicinity somewhere. Vs. your best case scenario 3 slave blood sacrifice + 1 candle + 2 temple checks from pretender = 8 temple checks + 1 candle. Pretty sure your dom was <9 too.

[Samhain]

It was. I had dom 8. I didn't know what your dom score was. Besides hoping for luck, I was hoping you had taken a lower dom score to afford your bless.

[Squirrelloid]

Memo to thugs:
When i order you to 'attack large enemy monsters', i don't mean 'move next to large enemy monsters and attack militia'.

Management

[Squirrelloid]

I see Ghoul turned off his research. Might as well conceed to Valerius now if you're going to do that, as by the time he finishes his cakewalk over Ulm he's going to just kill both of us since you're making both of us sacrifice our lategame.

[ghoul31]

I see Ghoul turned off his research. Might as well conceed to Valerius now if you're going to do that, as by the time he finishes his cakewalk over Ulm he's going to just kill both of us since you're making both of us sacrifice our lategame.

You started the war. I'm just finishing it.

[Squirrelloid]

I see Ghoul turned off his research. Might as well conceed to Valerius now if you're going to do that, as by the time he finishes his cakewalk over Ulm he's going to just kill both of us since you're making both of us sacrifice our lategame.

You started the war. I'm just finishing it.

Wait, what?

You sniped a province of Mictlan's that was rightfully mine since i did all the work killing Mictlan. I took it back. You then proceeded to start this war.

Alternately, you taking that province of Mictlan's was you declaring war on me.

So take your pick. But certainly don't believe that sniping provinces from someone who someone else has spent their resources to kill without even talking to that person is anything less than a war declaration unless those provinces are returned post haste.

And if you think you're going to 'finish' this war, you're sadly mistaken.

[ghoul31]

Just because you are attacking a nation, doesn't mean you own all of their provinces and nobody else is allowed to attack.

Just the opposite, most people are happy when someone else helps out.

You attacked my province, and make a post about how you aren't afraid of me.

You were begging me to attack you , so I did.

And now you are crying about it?

[Squirrelloid]

Just because you are attacking a nation, doesn't mean you own all of their provinces and nobody else is allowed to attack.

Just the opposite, most people are happy when someone else helps out.

When that nation is as good as dead, its sniping, and no one welcomes it.


You attacked my province, and make a post about how you aren't afraid of me.

You were begging me to attack you , so I did.

And now you are crying about it?

I was merely commenting that this war was going to cause you to lose the game, especially because you turned off research.

Please keep marching Dai Oni into me, I'm going to enjoy watching them die.

[ghoul31]

If your strategy is to bore me to death by sneaking around and refusing to fight me, then your strategy is working.

[Squirrelloid]

If your strategy is to bore me to death by sneaking around and refusing to fight me, then your strategy is working.

One of us is still doing research... o.O

[Squirrelloid]

Dai Oni vs. 1 PD - Dai Oni loses! rofl.

[ghoul31]

Dai Oni vs. 1 PD - Dai Oni loses! rofl.

Oh cool, another ahole to put on my ignore list

[Squirrelloid]

It was genuinely hilarious. I actually did laugh out loud. If that makes me an 'ahole', well, I guess I can live with that.

[Squirrelloid]

Happy that I fought ghoul? Or would you prefer I go back to sneaking around and refusing to engage?

[Squirrelloid]

I'm going to be gone most of tomorrow and part of Sunday, and might not have time to get to this turn. Could i get like +12h on the clock?

[Valerius]

Thanks for playing, Ossa. I have to admit my storming of your cap didn't go quite as intended. The most ridiculous part was I accidentally gave one of my thugs an N gem which he used to go off script and cast touch of madness on some nearby archers, bringing himself to 99 fatigue in the process. But the thing I don't understand is why my magic duelers didn't target your pretender, who was the strongest S mage on the field. I thought it would target the strongest S mage - and it did target the golem before your S1 mages - but it didn't try for your pretender.

I'm going to be gone most of tomorrow and part of Sunday, and might not have time to get to this turn. Could i get like +12h on the clock?

Sure, hosting has been postponed 12 hours.

[Ossa]

Huh - I wondered that myself;)

[Squirrelloid]

magic duel targets a random S mage, not the strongest.

[Squirrelloid]

Valerius, can i get a 24h extension? I can almost certainly get to it tomorrow night or monday morning, but by tomorrow at ~2pm is just not happening.

[Valerius]

Valerius, can i get a 24h extension? I can almost certainly get to it tomorrow night or monday morning, but by tomorrow at ~2pm is just not happening.

Sure, hosting postponed 24 hours.

magic duel targets a random S mage, not the strongest.

Btw, thanks for this info. I guess if I ever played astral nations I might have known this. ;)

[Squirrelloid]

Honestly, I propose just conceeding to Valerius. Not only do I not have the forces to oppose him nor the gem income, I also have no inclination to do so while Yomi is still alive.

Even if i did manage to force an army fight against TNN, and even if I won that fight, it would be irrelevant because i'll have already lost regardless of its outcome.

I see no reason to continue this game, the conclusion is foregone.

[Valerius]

I think Yomi is likely in the role of kingmaker. Assuming Helheim is defeated, I expect TNN would have too large a lead for Yomi to have a chance at the win. If Yomi and Helheim attack TNN and win I think there would be a similar situation, this time with Helheim the likely winner. I guess there's an outside chance that Yomi could declare peace with Helheim, let TNN and Helheim fight it out and weaken each other and then attack whichever seems to be winning but I'm not sure Yomi currently has enough provinces to make this viable.

[Squirrelloid]

I think Yomi is likely in the role of kingmaker. Assuming Helheim is defeated, I expect TNN would have too large a lead for Yomi to have a chance at the win. If Yomi and Helheim attack TNN and win I think there would be a similar situation, this time with Helheim the likely winner. I guess there's an outside chance that Yomi could declare peace with Helheim, let TNN and Helheim fight it out and weaken each other and then attack whichever seems to be winning but I'm not sure Yomi currently has enough provinces to make this viable.

Your analysis is flawed for a multitude of reasons:
(1) i just beat the snot out of yomi's major forces a couple turns ago. They don't have all that much to work with, and what they have you could easily deal with.
(2) you assume that i'd be willing to stop killing yomi to deal with TNN. This is a bad metagame play. Its in my best interest in future games to kill the first person that attacks me even if it involves dying in this game. This discourages people from attacking me in the first place because they know the first person to attack me will die (or at least lose), and so no one wants to initiate that.
(3) Peace with yomi is further inconvenient because we'd never reach a settlement on what we considered a fair distribution of territories. There's no basis for peace between us.
(4) Even if we did team up, i'm pretty sure you exceed the two of us combined in gem income and available forces. You seriously overestimate my position if you think Yomi could kingmake between us, or you seriously overestimate Yomi's position, or both.
(5) Yomi's research stopped at such a low level that they're worthless as a strategic ally.

[Valerius]

(2) you assume that i'd be willing to stop killing yomi to deal with TNN. This is a bad metagame play. Its in my best interest in future games to kill the first person that attacks me even if it involves dying in this game. This discourages people from attacking me in the first place because they know the first person to attack me will die (or at least lose), and so no one wants to initiate that.

Well, this is a really key point. If you aren't going to send the majority of your forces against me then I'd agree the game is decided.

Ghoul, what do you think of ending it? If Squirrelloid is going to devote considerable forces to attacking you then I can't see you having a chance to make a comeback.

[ghoul31]

Since he's going to throw the game, and let you win, yeah I guess the game is over.

[Squirrelloid]

I'm certain that even if I stopped attacking ghoul entirely (which I certainly won't do while he controls lands in Mictlan's former territories), I still wouldn't stand a chance against Valerius. And ghoul doesn't have enough left to be more than a footnote.

You're either underestimating your own strength or seriously overestimating mine if you believe otherwise.

I mean, I can keep playing if you really want, but I don't know what you think it will change.

[Valerius]

Given my dislike of micromanagement, I'm fine with ending it (I had recently reached the point that turns were becoming less fun due to micro). And I certainly don't like to to take the time for turns if the outcome isn't in doubt. But I wanted to get ghoul's opinion first. Ghoul, sorry you feel Squirrelloid is throwing the game. I don't think that's the case - I think he just doesn't want to waste time if it isn't going to change the result.

Squirrelloid, I may be overestimating your strength but I don't think I'm underestimating mine. I launched an attack against your eastern provinces but also have the necessary resources to stop an attack if you decide to launch one from Mictlan's former provinces.

I'll postpone hosting but leave the game up for a bit before deleting it.

[Valerius]

Ok, I've thought it over and while as a player I pretty much agree with Squirrelloid's analysis of the situation, as an admin I don't know that I should be calling the game yet - especially because the result is favorable to me.

And since both of you have already submitted your turns there's no reason we shouldn't at least play this turn.

[Squirrelloid]

Consider this a second call to end the game. Not only has everything more or less transpired as i predicted, but ghoul seems determined to burn every last resource holding forts he took from me instead of doing anything against TNN - which is really weird after he accused me of wanting to throw the game by not going after you. I don't know why you're moving so slowly Valerius, it should be obvious by now you have me dead to rights. I certainly have no interest in playing a protracted death in a game that shouldve been called 5 turns ago.

Basically, if there was going to be any point in playing, ghoul wouldve needed to evacuate the forts that are in the middle of my territory and let me have them. That he has not done so, but has instead snuck troops in and/or reinforced the garrisons with CotWind means that most of my forces are cooling their heels unproductively sieging forts, and most of his resources are tied up defending those forts. Certainly he didn't expect i'd just let him keep forts in the middle of my territory? Why did we keep playing, exactly?

[Valerius]

I put up those two globals last turn to try to force the issue. At this point if you don't both attack me we'll just be wasting a lot of time playing through to an inevitable result.

So I vote to end the game as well.

[Squirrelloid]

So, are we ending this?

[Valerius]

Ghoul hasn't said anything and has sent in his turn so I assume he wants to continue. But that's 2 to 1 in favor of ending it.

As admin I do feel some responsibility to keep playing if one of the players is still interested but I don't really want to... If it helps, I'm willing to concede the game to the game to Yomi since he outlasted us. :p

[Squirrelloid]

Ghoul hasn't said anything and has sent in his turn so I assume he wants to continue. But that's 2 to 1 in favor of ending it.

As admin I do feel some responsibility to keep playing if one of the players is still interested but I don't really want to... If it helps, I'm willing to concede the game to the game to Yomi since he outlasted us. :p

Nah, you totally won this. We should just kill him to end it if that's the problem...

[ghoul31]

I already said to end it in my last post

[Valerius]

Ok then, the game is over. Certainly one of the most unusual endings to a game that I've experienced...

Thanks everyone for playing!