The Art of War - EA Vanilla Newbs Game 8/8 (Completed : Hinnom - Nightfall Wins)

[MartialDoctor]

Figured I'd start up a newb game here. I've played a few (3) games myself and would like to keep this game to those who have only played a few themselves (let's say 4 or 5 maximum).

Age - EA
Map - Land of Legends (found here (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=43144))
Turns - 24 hours until turn 21, then 48 hours until turn 50, and 72 hours after that.
Mods - None
Graphs off, Indies 6
Victory Conditions - Last standing or until all remaining players resign (except for the victor of course) :)
Diplomacy - I don't want there to be a forced diplomacy rule but I want to encourage NAPs and sticking to them.
Players - 8

The only thing I ask of players is to stay in the game until you have been completely defeated. You can always have fun going out swinging. If you must, find a sub. And please do not set the AI on yourself.

I plan on hosting it on llamaserver as long as that's not an issue.

I hope we can have an interesting and fun newb game here.

Players

MartialDoctor - Tien Chi
<strike>LongBrodie - Maverni</strike> (Eliminated Turn 37)
<strike>Talrivian - Tir na nog</strike> (Eliminated Turn 30)
Excist - Caelum
SpaceViking21 - Niefelheim
Thanatus del Dragos - Fomoria
<strike>The Kurgan - Ulm</strike> (Eliminated Turn 37)
Nightfall - Hinnom

Edit: Due to request, this game has been changed to vanilla.

[Talrivian]

I'm signing up for Kailasa!

[LongBrodie]

I'll be Abysia!

[Talrivian]

I'm signing up for Kailasa!

Actually, I change my mind. I want to play Tir na nog! Talrivian is now Tir na nog, not Kailasa!

[Excist]

I'll join with Caelum...I think...

*reserving my right to change my mind, as my mind is badly worn and in need of repair/replacement*

[SpaceViking21]

I'll sign up as Niefelheim.

[Talrivian]

Bump?

[Thanatus del Dragos]

Can I have Fomoria?

[The Kurgan]

I will play EA Ulm.

[LongBrodie]

I'd like to change to Marverni, please. :)

[MartialDoctor]

Ok, one more and we'll be all set. You all can start making your Pretenders so that we can get rolling once we get the last one here.

[The Kurgan]

Pretender done. Just waiting for the game to be setup on Llamaserver. :)

[Nightfall]

I'll fill out the game if you would like.

In the past I have completed 2 MP games, currently playing my third, so this will be my fourth.

I'd prefer to try Hinnom, but if the others would prefer they not be played I'll give Sauromatia a go.

[MartialDoctor]

Alright, the game has been setup. As no spaces can be included, it is called "TheArtofWar."

Here are instructions for submitting your Pretender:

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showpost.php?p=529316&postcount=2

If anyone else has any last minute race changes, make sure you change it now before we start :P

[MartialDoctor]

Ok, it seems that llamaserver was down there for a couple of days but it's back up now. Looks like we just need Thanatus and we'll be ready to go.

[Nightfall]

Atlantis?

[MartialDoctor]

Thanatus, did you change to Atlantis? Or did something screwy happen when llamaserver went down?

[Talrivian]

Hey Nightfall, do you think I could take Hinnom, and you play Sauromatia? I have never played them before, and they seem really interesting. If not, it's ok. Just curious!

[Talrivian]

Sorry to double post, but if you read the info announcement by Gandalf Parker in the main forum, you'll notice that a new patch will be coming out soon. So I recommend we start this game once the new patch is out.

[Thanatus del Dragos]

Just submitted pretender, sorry, didnt realize the game was ready.

[Nightfall]

Hey Nightfall, do you think I could take Hinnom, and you play Sauromatia? I have never played them before, and they seem really interesting. If not, it's ok. Just curious!

Since your starting another game to play Hinnom, I assume that this is no longer an issue.

In which case we can delete the Atlantis pretender and start; as it's a bad idea to start a game with an unknown player.

By the way, from my testing of Hinnom so far, you might want to try them out a bit before diving in. I think most of the guides for them were written prior to the capital mages being patched to generate unrest. So far I've found them to be very tricky in the first year and pretender build very important.

[Talrivian]

You are right, I no longer want you to drop playing Hinnom.

I have been testing Hinnom, and I have found a strategy that basically makes them the most powerful EA race in my opinion. My brother and I have been testing them together for weeks, and we basically can find no counter besides ganging up on them as soon as possible, which is still almost impossible to do. I would give you the pointers, but I don't want to lose in this game. :P There is nothing tricky about playing them at all.

Here is one tip:

There strongest unit early game (and in middle... and late game...) is their chariots. They are so ridiculously strong that it is absurd.

[MartialDoctor]

Ok, all pretenders are in, I'm just waiting on word on the patch.

As long as it won't take long, we'll just wait for it to come out. If it will take a while, then I'll go ahead and start it up tomorrow.

[MartialDoctor]

Well, I figured we'd go ahead and start since the patch release date is fairly iffy (not too surprisingly).

However, I think we have a bit of an issue. I think only 6 races have started in the game, for some odd reason.

Please let me know if you didn't get a turn; we may have to restart it.

[Nightfall]

I'm fine...

[SpaceViking21]

I got my turn.

[The Kurgan]

Just FYI, but this game is set for quickhosting. So, as soon as we all get our turns in, it will generate the next turn immediately and we don't have to wait the full 24 hours/turn.

I would love these first several turns to get knocked out quickly if we all pay attention to our emails and get things turned around quickly.

Also, if you are the last one to email your turn, just wait 10 min and you will get your next turn. So, you can do them back to back. :D

[MartialDoctor]

Alright, it appears there was no hitch, fortunately. Please check the forums as I will post anything necessary here. And, again, don't set the AI unless you've discussed it with me first. It's best to fight it out until the end for the best of other players.

If you need a sub or some extra time for a turn, just let me know.

Good luck to everyone and enjoy :D

And, yes, we are on quickhost.

[MartialDoctor]

After endless years of civil war, the followers of Hu Nu, the Lady of the Lake, have arisen and overthrown the corrupt officials of neighboring provinces. The Kingdom of Heaven and Earth has been established and order has been restored in the mountainous areas of Tian Lai.

However, barbarians still roam freely in the near vicinity, raiding and pillaging the villages and the walking dead kill without thought or mercy. The Kingdom of Heaven and Earth must find a way to quell these chaotic forces, establish order, and bring peace to the region.

[The Kurgan]

Martial, I will be without internet/email from about 1400 GMT on 1 July until 2300 GMT on 2 July visiting relatives. So, if we could have a delay on running whatever turn is due in that timeframe back to 2359 GMT, 2 July, it would be much appreciated.

I will post a reminder again just before I leave the house that day.

[MartialDoctor]

Martial, I will be without internet/email from about 1400 GMT on 1 July until 2300 GMT on 2 July visiting relatives. So, if we could have a delay on running whatever turn is due in that timeframe back to 2359 GMT, 2 July, it would be much appreciated.

I will post a reminder again just before I leave the house that day.

Ok, that won't be a problem. Thanks for the heads up.

[SpaceViking21]

Martial, I will be without internet/email from about 1400 GMT on 1 July until 2300 GMT on 2 July visiting relatives. So, if we could have a delay on running whatever turn is due in that timeframe back to 2359 GMT, 2 July, it would be much appreciated.

I will post a reminder again just before I leave the house that day.

I'll be in a similar situation this weekend.

[MartialDoctor]

Thanatus (Fomoria) has missed two turns now and has not replied to my message. Looks like we may need a sub. I'll go ahead and post up to find a replacement if I don't receive a reply by tomorrow morning (my tomorrow morning). If this is the case, I'll pause the game until a sub is found.

Also, it seems we'll need to update to the latest patch to continue on. You'll get an error if you try to play without it.

[The Kurgan]

Actually, he hasn't technically missed a turn. The turn was run an hour before the deadline this morning and the stalling data under admin on llamaserver shows he hasn't missed a turn yet.

He IS however waiting until right before the turn is run for the last few turns, and doesn't wait 5-10 minutes to get his turn back and then do that one so we all don't have to wait the full 24 hours.

So, Thantalus, what's the deal? Can we count on you to start doing your turns back to back and help keep things moving, or are you going to barely beat the buzzer each turn? If you are having issues this early, it is going to be a long game....

Just communicate a little bit.

[MartialDoctor]

Ah, I didn't notice that info. I thought he had been missing them.

Well, if he's getting his turns in, then all is well. I'm guessing, due to the fact that he hasn't gotten back to me yet, is that he's just busy with life.

[The Kurgan]

Ah, I didn't notice that info. I thought he had been missing them.

Well, if he's getting his turns in, then all is well. I'm guessing, due to the fact that he hasn't gotten back to me yet, is that he's just busy with life.


This time he actually staled....

[The Kurgan]

Ok, I just submitted Turn 12, and will be leaving the house here in a couple of hours. I will need a 24 hour extension on Turn 13 (it all depends on when the last two turn in and what the new clock is, but 24 hours will keep me safe for sure). Keep it on quickhost and as soon as I can get back on the internet, I will run the turn.

Thanks!

[MartialDoctor]

Ok, I just submitted Turn 12, and will be leaving the house here in a couple of hours. I will need a 24 hour extension on Turn 13 (it all depends on when the last two turn in and what the new clock is, but 24 hours will keep me safe for sure). Keep it on quickhost and as soon as I can get back on the internet, I will run the turn.

Thanks!

Yeah, no problem at all. I'm just going to extend turn 13 to 48 hours. Hopefully that will be enough time for you and SpaceViking.

[SpaceViking21]

I'm not sure about schedule at the moment, but I may not be available until monday. I'll keep you informed.

[Nightfall]

Can everyone please make sure they have board messages turned on! In game messaging sucks...

[Thanatus del Dragos]

Sorry guys, been real hectic the last few days.

[SpaceViking21]

Thanks for the extension Martial, just got mine in.

[MartialDoctor]

Not a problem, SpaceViking.

I hope everyone enjoyed the 4th of July weekend. The game has been returned to the original 24 hours / turn.

[MartialDoctor]

Turn 21 is on us already. I initially said that I'd put it up to 48 hours now but it seems I misjudged how far along the game would be at turn 21.

I would like to keep it at 24 hours for another 7-10 turns unless someone objects. So, speak now or hold your peace until next week :)

[Excist]

I suspect that this will not be a problem since, this seems to be what

http://www.llamaserver.net/gameinfo.cgi?game=TheArtofWar

looks like for about 10-14 hours per 24 hour period:


Caelum 2h file received
Fomoria Waiting for 2h file
Hinnom 2h file received
Marverni 2h file received
Niefelheim 2h file received
T'ien Ch'i 2h file received
Tir na n'Og 2h file received
Ulm 2h file received

[MartialDoctor]

Is Fomoria about dead and has just given up? Or is he simply stalling?

I am delaying this turn until I get this figured out. Sorry for the hassle.

[Nightfall]

Is Fomoria about dead and has just given up? Or is he simply stalling?

I am delaying this turn until I get this figured out. Sorry for the hassle.

No idea what his situation is, but it looks like he is trying to play too many games at once, supposedly a common mistake.

[MartialDoctor]

Well, that was fast. Mightypeon has expressed interest in taking over for Fomoria. Please welcome him and let him know what the situation is with your nation (if you have any agreements that existed before with Thanatus).

[Mightypeon]

Hi there,

Good Luck and have Fun to everyone!

I have received the turn. Hmmm....

My turn will take a while since I have to familiriaze myself with my rather non standart situation.

[Mightypeon]

I have to ask for an 12h extension, as I need Spacevikings awnser about the status of our diplomatic relations. If I happen to be at war with him, my turn would obiously be different ;)

[MartialDoctor]

I have to ask for an 12h extension, as I need Spacevikings awnser about the status of our diplomatic relations. If I happen to be at war with him, my turn would obiously be different ;)

Ok, done.

[Mightypeon]

Wohoo, my turn is in! Happy gaming!!!

[Thanatus del Dragos]

Sorry about making you guys have to find a replacement for me. I've been stuck working 80 hours a week at the hospital and I probably have joined too many games to keep up with them all. I am sorry for all the stalls, and good luck to my replacement.

[MartialDoctor]

Sorry about making you guys have to find a replacement for me. I've been stuck working 80 hours a week at the hospital and I probably have joined too many games to keep up with them all. I am sorry for all the stalls, and good luck to my replacement.

No worries, Thanatus. Life happens :)

Thanks for the update. Sorry you didn't have the chance to finish through but that's totally understandable.

[SpaceViking21]

It looks like all of the turns are in, but it's not hosting. is the server having issues?

[MartialDoctor]

With wars raging in every direction, Hu Nu, the Lady of the Lake, in her infinite wisdom, decided it was time to act. The barbarians known as the Maverni, ruled by a Large One-Eyed Beast, could no longer be allowed to remain in power. These barbarians were wrecking mayhem and havoc, with no order or direction.

The Kingdom of Heaven and Earth knew the time had come. It sent its Battalions of Followers of the Way and Celestial Beings to remove these barbarians from power and restore order to the land.

[Mightypeon]

The Nation of Formoria proclaims its wish to aquire Astral and Nature Gems. We would be able to trade Air, Water or Death gems in return.

Cheers,

Mightypeon, Head of the revolutionary Formorian Council

[The Kurgan]

Thinking that I am about ready for these turns to be run every 48 hours....

[MartialDoctor]

Thinking that I am about ready for these turns to be run every 48 hours....

Alright, not a problem. I'll keep it on quickhost but will change the deadline to 48 hours.

[The Kurgan]

When did Tir na nog go AI? I just noticed that on the Pretender list...

Also, I am getting beat on pretty good by Caelum, so if you are so inclined, he has to be a little weaker down south... :p

Oh, and Fomoria is ending his NAP with me next turn so feel free to beat on him out West.

I will hold on as long as I can. lol

[Nightfall]

When did Tir na nog go AI? I just noticed that on the Pretender list...

Just a couple of turns ago, he has, to my knowledge, no provinces and no units left at all.

But sieges take time...

[MartialDoctor]

I specifically said not to turn on AI without talking to me first. Please, even if you have no units, talk with me before you go AI just so I know the situation.

Anyways, Talrivian, I hope you enjoyed playing. Glad to have you join our game here.

[Excist]

Also, I am getting beat on pretty good by Caelum, so if you are so inclined, he has to be a little weaker down south... :p

Oh, and Fomoria is ending his NAP with me next turn so feel free to beat on him out West.

I will hold on as long as I can. lol

lol, more like Ulm has been beating itself against the Eagle King's mountains of strength!

I think all your big losses have been when you have tried to advance on me, first with your clustered sacreds and then with your SC.

I have only been engaging you with a third of my resources. If anybody thinks to catch me unawares, be warned, I am like a stale Oreo Cookie: hard on the top, hard on the bottom and a little crumbly, but still somewhat unexpectedly firm inbetweeen.

You can try taking a bite of it, but don't be surprised if it isn't as tasty as it looked.

[Mightypeon]

Greetings,

the Formorian High Command is eagerly willing to aquire Earth and Nature Gems. We currently are willing to trade largely in Astral gems.

Signed,

Stavka High Command
Formoria

[The Kurgan]

After speaking with MartialDoc (and losing my capital and all but two provinces) I have gone AI.

It was fun and I learned a lot (like I need to play more SP to hone some stragegies). :)

Good luck to all!

The Kurgan

[Nightfall]

It was fun and I learned a lot (like I need to play more SP to hone some stragegies). :)


Single player is pretty useless past the first year for testing multi player strategy, they are almost completely different games.

In fact other than testing your initial expansion playing against the AI is probably detrimental to your multi player game.

A better way to learn is to go back over your turns to figure out what mistakes you made and what you could have done better. I always archive all the turns in multi player games so that I can refer back to them.

[MartialDoctor]

Yeah, I'll definitely agree with Nightfall. The AI plays completely differently from a human. It's good to test out expansion strategies or to see how certain spells work. But, other than this, not really helpful for MP.

Best to just play MP games. When you lose, you learn quite a lot if you go back and figure out what you could have done differently.

On another note, Maverni will also be going AI as he's been quite busy and doesn't have much left either.

LongBrodie and The Kurgan - thanks for playing :)

[Excist]

Thems the shakes.

As Macleod says, 'There can only be one!'

I hope to play with both of you guys again in another time and another place...and Talrivian as well, as long as I'm at it. (didn't get a chance with him since he went AI without saying anything)

Happy Trails and say hello to Tartarus for us! There's sure to be 4 more on their way down sooner or later.

[Nightfall]

:angel

Within the council chamber of the Hinnom the debate rages as to the state of the world.

Rumors of alliances and plots, suggestions for war from other nations have arrived and been dispatched, yet the world appeared to be strangely quiet.

With no nation obviously weak enough to be easy pray, the pretenders eye each other warily while the tension builds, trying to anticipate who will be the first to act.

[Mightypeon]

I am currently on vacation and have just found out that "Internet access" means a old dos PC without user access to USB ports that is shakingly connected to the Internet.
Oh, and the only internet cafee in a radius of 5 km just closed.
I can still send E-Mails and messages, but not get or send attachments.
My vacation is sceduled to go on for 2 weeks, so a sub will likely be needed.

I apologize again, I really thought that I would have working access to the Internet.

[MartialDoctor]

Sorry to hear that, Mightypeon. It looks like we got a sub coming along, I'm sure he'll message you to get some more information.

I'm postponing hosting until he gets settled in.

[MartialDoctor]

Ok guys, I wasn't specific in the beginning when looking for a sub. I have found one guy but he has played 10+ multiplayer games (although he still considers himself to be a newb).

If I can't find anyone else by tomorrow, I'm just going to let him take the spot. If any of you all has a problem with this, please let me know ASAP.

[Excist]

A couple of points in favor of this guy: this is presumably a temporary sub and the original Fomoria has staled several turns and reportedly lacked an initial opening strategy, so it would be better to err on the side of bringing somebody in that probably won't set Fomoria farther behind than those still in the game.

My 2 cents: no problem IMO

[MartialDoctor]

Ok, guys, Samhain here has been nice enough to play the game until Mightypeon comes back from vacation. I figure that will be the best solution so we can get things moving again.

[Samhain]

Hello, all. As MartialDoctor says, I'm in temporary control of the great nation of Fomoria until its permanent owner returns. Please PM me or post here any diplomatic arrangements I should now about.

[Mightypeon]

I am glad to announce that I am back now.
I want to thank everyone for their patience, and Samhain for his work in subbing. I would greatly appreciate a delay in order to refamiliarize myself with the situation.

Best wishes,

Mightypeon

[Samhain]

Glad to have you back, MightyPeon. I apologize for the stale on what was to be my last turn. I had thought it was already in your control. Fortunately, it was an uneventful turn.

[MartialDoctor]

Samhain,

Thanks for the help subbing in there, much appreciated. And welcome back, Mightypeon.

I delayed this last turn for 24 hours as I got hung up with some things today and had no way of doing it. My apologies.

[Mightypeon]

We announce that the vile Giants of Niefelheim just announced their intention to attack our nation in the next turn, despite the preexisting pact of non aggression.

Formoria will repay this treachery in blood.

[SpaceViking21]

When asked about these accusations of treachery, Gunnvaldr's teams of legal Skrattis complained of "vagueness of terms" and said, quote, "The treaty consisted of little more than a piece of parchment with the phrase 'Non-Aggression Pact' written on it." and further stated "It's a wonder this thing was taken seriously at all." One then stated that due to the issues with the pact, Gunnvaldr's advance notice of the treaty's dissolution was more than generous. More on this story as it develops. I'm SpaceViking, Niefel News 24.

[Excist]

Caelum's ambassador wonders if this means that advance notice in the NAP was never specified, or if Niefelheim is just unreliable.

In other news, Caelum's ambassador also wonders if the massive number of hurricanes sent our way weren't Niefelheim's way of preparing for war with Caelum then who DID send such tropical gifts?

[MartialDoctor]

My apologies guys, I'm going to have to ask for another extension. I am in the midst of moving and have much to do today.

Again, sorry about this.

[SpaceViking21]

My apologies guys, I'm going to have to ask for another extension. I am in the midst of moving and have much to do today.

Again, sorry about this.

It's fine, but just a heads up, I'll be away from home for my job Tuesday-Thursday, so depending on when the game hosts I may need an extension on the next turn

[Mightypeon]

Rereading my correspondence, I actually did not specifiy it to be an NAP 3. A mistake caused by this being my first true MP game -.-

Nevertheless, I believe that NAPs with 1 turn of a warning are well, a bit rare ;)

I am highly interested to see how the next turn will play out!

[SpaceViking21]

Rereading my correspondence, I actually did not specifiy it to be an NAP 3. A mistake caused by this being my first true MP game -.-

Nevertheless, I believe that NAPs with 1 turn of a warning are well, a bit rare ;)

I am highly interested to see how the next turn will play out!

Yeah, it didn't seem weird to me because this is my first MP game as well. Live and learn I guess (well, maybe not live for one of us ;) )

[Excist]

After the llamaserver outage I had to request a turn resend to get my turn50. Some of you may be in the same boat, so take a looksee.

[SpaceViking21]

I had to request a resend as well. I also was just informed by my boss to be on standby for a job that will take the better part of a month and will be away from my computer for that long, so I'll put out feelers for a sub just in case.

[Mightypeon]

I had a stale for some reason.
The error is widely more likely to be on my side than on anything according to Lamaserver.
I may be requiring an extension to puzzle together precisly what happened.

[Excist]

For the last 5 turns or so I have had to send in mine via an alternate email address since suddenly lllamaserver started screening my email address that I had subscribed to the game with as potential spam for some crazy reason or another.

Moral : always wait for the confirmation email from llamaserver that everything is hunky dory.

[Mightypeon]

I am currently on painkillers due to some unpleaseant dental surgery, I assume that some kind of ****up on my side is vastly more likely ;)

[MartialDoctor]

Well, my apologizes, guys, but I'm pretty much done with this game. I've tried to stick it out but I am just finding it to be more and more of a frustrating experience and a time waste for me. Too much micromanagement and too little control of ones units (especially mages) along with many other things I am disliking. Dom3 is definitely not my kind of game. :rolleyes:

So, I am going to find a sub for myself and I'll get someone else to do the hosting.

Again, my apologies, as I know this game has already had enough setbacks as it is. But I just can't keep spending what free time I have on a game that just makes me angry.

I wish you all luck and enjoy. I'm sure it will have an interesting outcome.

[SpaceViking21]

Sorry to hear that martialdoctor, good luck.

[Mightypeon]

Well, for me the diplo was half the fun;) Than I had a uhhm rather crucial stale ;)

[MartialDoctor]

Ok, Hylobius will be filling in for me. I'll ask Excist to take over as admin.

Enjoy the rest of the game, guys.

[Hylobius]

Hi guys,

I'm just having my first look at my turn and should have a new turn in tonight. Send me a PM if there is something I should know.

[Hylobius]

Not sure who the admin is now, but could I have a short delay while I get up to speed?

[SpaceViking21]

Not sure who the admin is now, but could I have a short delay while I get up to speed?

I believe that's Excist now. Try sending a PM, no idea if he knows yet

[Excist]

Yes, apparently I have been declared replacement admin, however, I haven't been given the admin password yet...

I should be able to bug MartialDoctor about that in a few hours, which should be in time to delay the current hosting deadline in 16 hours.

[Nightfall]

Not sure who the admin is now, but could I have a short delay while I get up to speed?

Welcome Hylobius, if you have any questions for me please don't hesitate to send me through a PM.

[Hylobius]

I spent some more time on the turn and things started to come together. Don't bother delaying for me.

[Mightypeon]

Ouch, well I am out.

Mistakes made:
-A crucial stale
-Not paying attention to Dom until too late
-Bad gem management, did not correctly thug out my SCs
-The issue with not stating what kind of NAP I intend to have
-A bad call with my Pretender God. Should have kept him to spread Dominion
-On top of that, I subbed in at turn 29 with only Thaumaturgy 5 (and nothing else) being researched. Also, why would anyone ever choose that snake Pretender?

[Nightfall]

Ouch, well I am out.

Mistakes made:
-A crucial stale
-Not paying attention to Dom until too late
-Bad gem management, did not correctly thug out my SCs
-The issue with not stating what kind of NAP I intend to have
-A bad call with my Pretender God. Should have kept him to spread Dominion
-On top of that, I subbed in at turn 29 with only Thaumaturgy 5 (and nothing else) being researched. Also, why would anyone ever choose that snake Pretender?

There seems to be a lot of unfortified temples in this game. I've taken out about 14 from Tien Chi and I think both Caelum and Neif have them too, although not as many. Thankfully I can use fire Melquarts, which are pretty terrible for anything else, to sacrifice 6 slaves a turn once I give them a jade knife.

I've noticed that now I've played in a couple of games after I design a pretender and am happy with it, the last thing I do is take a look to see if there is any way I can squeeze in just 1 more point of dominion without damaging the overall gameplan. It's important in so many small ways that I think a lot of people undervalue it.

Unfortunately I think formoria got stuck in a pretty small area at the start, combined with the cost of kings, that probably explains the lack of research.

[Excist]

Well, level 5 research in 1 school isn't a particularly bad amount of research for year 1, but the question is what value does that level of Thau have in the early game.

[SpaceViking21]

Unfortunately I think formoria got stuck in a pretty small area at the start, combined with the cost of kings, that probably explains the lack of research.

This is the crux of both our problems thus far. One of us should have consumed the other 20+ turns ago and set themselves up as a credible player on the global stage. Instead, now that I've finally consumed Fomoria I have to work hard to even have a realistic shot of threatening the Big 2.


Ouch, well I am out.

Mistakes made:
-A crucial stale
-Not paying attention to Dom until too late
-Bad gem management, did not correctly thug out my SCs
-The issue with not stating what kind of NAP I intend to have
-A bad call with my Pretender God. Should have kept him to spread Dominion
-On top of that, I subbed in at turn 29 with only Thaumaturgy 5 (and nothing else) being researched. Also, why would anyone ever choose that snake Pretender?

You put up a very strong fight despite your poor starting position and the stale. I was desperately trying to figure out how to kill those damn morrigans, good thing my Pretender was hanging out in the area to hurt your domspread.

[Mightypeon]

You also attacked me just before I got Dance of the Morrigan as a Battle Spell, that would have changed things I think.

Well, I learned a lot!


Btw: I subbed in in turn 28, which is middle of year 2 ;)

And dont get me started on the horrible horrible pretender...

[Excist]

With a name like Trouser Snake you just know it's gonna....well, you know.

[Nightfall]

This is the crux of both our problems thus far. One of us should have consumed the other 20+ turns ago and set themselves up as a credible player on the global stage. Instead, now that I've finally consumed Fomoria I have to work hard to even have a realistic shot of threatening the Big 2.


Yeah the start was very lopsided, basically it was like...

........Neif....Form
....TNN
...........................Ulm*
Me

............................Cael*

......Man
..........................TC

The asterisks indicate positions that I'm not 100% on...

[Nightfall]

Could we please have an extra 24 hrs, a lot happened this turn.

[Excist]

Postponing by 24 hours.

[SpaceViking21]

So I'm going to be out of town for two weeks starting next sunday, and I'm curious if it's even worth getting a sub, considering my position. Any thoughts?

[Excist]

Well, considering the original host that made the rule about not quitting until the bitter end, quit, I think going AI in your particular case would be reasonable at this point, rather than finding a sub to put in for a few turns.

We can leave that open to a vote though; thats my 2 cents.

[SpaceViking21]

I just went ahead and made a post. If someone takes it, great. If not, then I'll go AI.

[Nightfall]

I'm happy to play this out as long as you guys want, but in my opinion this game is decided. My stockpile of gems (not including blood slaves) is now over 1000 and my gem income is over 250.

More importantly however I have solid control of a Steel Ovens and lots of hammers, which is how I've been able to mass forge robes of invulnerability. Note this also allows me to forge 3-4 clams a turn from income.

Oh, I can also throw up a forge of the ancients anytime I want, I just haven't seen any need to unless one of you guys tries, in which case I'll overwrite.

[Excist]

I'm happy with calling it as well. I kind of lost interest when all my SC scripts seemed to result in blade winds and summon elemental spells for no reason (targets were self-buffs, so there is no 'no target in range' excuse for the AI).

Game hasn't been fun for a few turns now that AI has become annoying.

The rather unfair advantages Hinnom gets in their current incarnation, and lack of disadvantages other than 1 minor one that hurts enemies as much as yourself if you are raiding constantly is just an extra irritant - I don't mind playing as an underdog or with imbalanced races (heck, I am playing as Agartha currently which is the most handicapped race in the game that I have seen, and having fun losing with them), but this match has taught how much in the way of training wheels Hinnom gets with a) little in the way of upkeep for armies of sacred SCs that have over 60 hp each, b) heavy Astral and Blood magic, c) access to every other magic school as well, d) national healers, e) SCs that are size 6 and have no weaknesses, such as being undead, demonic, magic being, etc. f) province defense that is strong enough to repel thugs and SCs for a couple of hundred gold for a caster that can spam 'blind' and elite units that have rather high stats, especially for militia

Any others?

Compare that to Agartha that has size 4, earth only magic (lvl 1 or 2 in water, fire and death), precision between 5 and 7 and av/dv values between 7 and 10.

Or even Caelum that has air only magic with lvl 1 water and death and if you're lucky 1 level of fire, size 3 and has province defence that routs itself even if it is facing a scout unless you have paid a few hundred in gold to get over 20 PD.

Don't get me wrong, you're not the only one with a big gem income, clam factory, etc.(although Caelum doesn't get access to blood stone forgers) , but this game just hasn't been fun in awhile and I have no interest in doing the gem-micro involved when there is such a radically different Return on Investment between Hinnom's and Caelum's recruits/summons which makes an economic battle rather one-sided and pointless.

Signed by:

Slightly bitter and tired from international flying man.


If everybody's agreed, I am fine with conceding this game to Kristoffer and his cleverly designed Race.

[Nightfall]

I'm happy with calling it as well. I kind of lost interest when all my SC scripts seemed to result in blade winds and summon elemental spells for no reason (targets were self-buffs, so there is no 'no target in range' excuse for the AI).

I'm not sure why your having problems if your using good buff scripting, the only time I ever have an issue is when they miss with an AOE buff, which does tend to happen occasionally. Note that using gems in your buff scripting is never good scripting though.


The rather unfair advantages Hinnom gets in their current incarnation, and lack of disadvantages other than 1 minor one that hurts enemies as much as yourself if you are raiding constantly is just an extra irritant - I don't mind playing as an underdog or with imbalanced races (heck, I am playing as Agartha currently which is the most handicapped race in the game that I have seen, and having fun losing with them), but this match has taught how much in the way of training wheels Hinnom gets with

I'm perfectly happy to admit Hinnom has some good strengths, however most of what you follow this with is not correct.


a) little in the way of upkeep for armies of sacred SCs that have over 60 hp each,


You have got to be kidding, Hinnom is EASILY the most gold intensive and highest upkeep nation I've ever tried either in single player or multiplayer.

In addition to standard giant upkeep problems you are forced to regularly run key provinces as less than 100% tax. In this game I beelined my expansion to every city province nearby at the cost of expansion effeciency and I manually site searched 2 hidden gold mines, 2 gem deposits and a fountain of rubies before turn 20. These are the reason I quickly established a strong cash flow despite being upkeep heavy.


b) heavy Astral and Blood magic,


Yep, this is one of the nations key strengths, although I should point out that Hinnom blood hunting is the least efficient of any blood nation I've played, you have to be really frugal with spending your blood slaves. In my case I used them almost exclusively to sacrifice and remote attack. Oh, and I also used three red seconds to drop an instant fortress on the steel ovens, a spell lots of people consider a waste of slaves. I did also build a few blood stones because I needed them for the booster, but I never had enough slaves to build them just as gem gens.


c) access to every other magic school as well,


Wrong, no water at all, and only D1, which is useless for anything except site searching. Also they have almost zero usefull cross path access, which is a huge issue for battlefield magic and forging. I solved the forging problem by finding 2 seperate enchantress sites both two provinces away from my capital.


d) national healers,


I think you can make a reasonable arguement that they shouldn't have the healers, although to be honest I found the supply(20) trait on the Acha's more usefull than the Healer(50) trait. It's a moot point in this case since I had complete control of Gift of Health due to my Pretender.


e) SCs that are size 6 and have no weaknesses, such as being undead, demonic, magic being, etc.


I'll tell you now that Baal's and Malquart's are nowhere near as good as you think, in fact it's impossible to build them with no weaknesses, I was constantly cycling the gear on them so that they had the right immunity/MR/reinvig build for the fight they were going into.

I was losing them regularly early game despite the fact that most of the points I got from using an imprisoned pretender were fed into a decent bless for them. But I can understand how you may feel that way, since you started fighting them after I was able to give them all robes of invulnerbility. I can't stress enough the HUGE difference that, as well as having gift of health, made to their survivability.


f) province defense that is strong enough to repel thugs and SCs for a couple of hundred gold for a caster that can spam 'blind' and elite units that have rather high stats, especially for militia


The province defence is decent but it's not top tier, and it's not as good as you think. A lot of those losses you had to 'a couple of hundred gold' were actually to provinces with 30 or 40 PD.


Any others?


I could point out a couple of weaknesses that not one of the four people, well five technically, I was at war with during this game even attempted to exploit.

The biggest one - Hugely Capital Dependant, I spent pretty much the entire game at war without a single dome and my capital was not shut down for A SINGLE TURN.

Blood hunters - Not a single opponent made a concerted effort to raid my blood hunters; which were all set to retreat by the way.

Using the right tool against the right target - All three Baal/Melquart types (depending on the random path) have completely different strengths and weaknesses and should be fought using completely different tactics.

Most of your post didn't annoy me because I understand that a lot of this isn't obvious from the other side of the fence, which is why I've tried to keep this post informative and instructive; and I hope it reads that way.

But I must say I kind of resent the fact that your complaining about feeling like your inability to match my economy is entirely due to an unfair realm advantage when your running -7 scales compared to my +4.

[SpaceViking21]

I'm not really in a position to keep this going, so I'm for throwing in the towel as well.

[Excist]

I'll direct this solely at Nightfall:

Like I said, I wrote that post when overtired from international travel, so it had an extra bit of unwarranted bitterness injected in to some IMO warranted complaints about how Hinnom is balanced. I think we have only been at war for 3 turns that I put turn orders in, since I think it is end of turn 62 now and turn 58 was when I think you attacked me, so I haven't been going after your capital since I was going to try to take Niefelheim's forts and hope that TC could keep the pressure on you so I didn't have a determined foe at my backside when I turned my full focus on you. I did have every intention of RA your capital and then siege/taxing it once I was ready to fully engage with you, but a stale turn when my flight out of the country didn't get me to an internet connection as fast as I thought it would disrupted my chance to siege your capital while you would be responding to my raiders on your northern coast.

As for not properly scripting the EKs, I didn't script them to cast any gem-spells.

This was my spell list: Invul - Summon Earth Power - Earth Might - Iron Will - Legions of Steel - Attack Closest

And some how they ended up casting summon earth elemental and blade wind. I had one of my nationals casting blade wind unscripted too, although that one I was able to puzzle out since Strength of Gaia has some effects that overlap with some of the other spells they can cast like personal regeneration and summon earth power.

The EK scripts didn't make any sense to me at all and still don't. And I removed all gems from them so I think any gems they have is because one of them gets 1 gem per turn.

Anyways, I'm not saying that the game isn't winnable, even at this point, just that it's not fun to do all the micro involved and to be set back so much in a few turns due to RL and poor programming code and know that any setbacks you suffer are more easily recouped - my 1 capital mage can get thwarted by 20-30 of your PD and cost as much as your capital mages who can take 50-60 Caelum PD no problem.

My strategy once I could focus on you was going to be take your capital directly so that your guys wouldn't be able to teleport back and would be more vulnerable to anti-SC tactics and mostly have random magic duelers wandering around patrolling my land to catch the kits that they could from you until I could.

Going after the blood hunters requires knowing which citadel had them, and like I said, I was only at war with you for 3 actual turns before you claimed victory, so no chance to probe and prod yet.

And, for the record I know that Melqs and Baals are killable (I killed one with robe of invuln and gift of health afterall). Hinnom is just insanely better than any other race. If you don't believe me you can do 10 ai vs ai games and a random assortment of map sizes and watch Hinnom's score graph compared to other nations with the exact same strategic and tactical AI. Guess who wins every single time?

[Excist]

Regarding your final points:

- The biggest one - Hugely Capital Dependant, I spent pretty much the entire game at war without a single dome and my capital was not shut down for A SINGLE TURN.

I was only just starting to fight with you when poor scripting and a stale turn set me back, but I had been advising TC to go for your capital for 20 odd turns ever since you 2 started fighting. That would have been one of my main goals to cut off the teleporting SC strategy along with churning out crossbows that cause blindness to take out the SCs that have nowhere to return to.

-- Blood hunters - Not a single opponent made a concerted effort to raid my blood hunters; which were all set to retreat by the way.

Have to know where the blood hunters are to raid them. I suppose in hind sight I should have looked for a small-med province and taken my chances there, and I probably would have if we had fought each other more than a few turns. This is only my 2nd game and my first that I made it to the end-game, so that may be a noob area that I'm just learning.

-- Using the right tool against the right target - All three Baal/Melquart types (depending on the random path) have completely different strengths and weaknesses and should be fought using completely different tactics.

Well, teleporting in and out is a good way to nullify that. I could only chance into your Astral Melqs and Baals with random patrollers, who would have to be randomly effective against your random weakness

-- Most of your post didn't annoy me because I understand that a lot of this isn't obvious from the other side of the fence, which is why I've tried to keep this post informative and instructive; and I hope it reads that way.
But I must say I kind of resent the fact that your complaining about feeling like your inability to match my economy is entirely due to an unfair realm advantage when your running -7 scales compared to my +4

I wasn't complaining about inability to match economy. I felt that our economies were actually fairly similar (or more accurately, were similar before you started raiding me and would have been similar again after I had a chance to gear up to fight you and counter-raid more effectively), but what I was complaining about was that once I have the gold/gems, I have less useful things to spend them on, which makes it frustrating to spend 10 turns making up what a crappy spell-casting AI and 1 stale turn had cost me, especially knowing that your SCs were comparatively much more easy to script (script ctrl-1 to teleport in and script ctrl-2 to teleport out) and creating anti-SC armies and thugs that could work against a random assortment of weaknesses was much harder and expensive.

I wouldn't have conceded and would have played this out to the end if you hadn't offered to claim victory, but seeing as how after the way things have gone I wasn't having fun doing my turns, I'm just as happy to let you claim victory.

[Nightfall]

Hylobius, could you please confirm what you would like to do?

A big part of the reason I spoke up is that I think that TC was a pretty terrible position to sub into, and can't be very fun to play from your point of view.

[Nightfall]

Well, teleporting in and out is a good way to nullify that. I could only chance into your Astral Melqs and Baals with random patrollers, who would have to be randomly effective against your random weakness


Yeah that tactic is horrendously difficult for Caelum to counter, but if you want to be become a good Caelum player you need to work on finding ways to do so. It works even better, and, in some ways, is cheaper, when using golems to do it.

[Excist]

Yea, I had ways, but, like I said most of them didn't get put into effect since we were only fighting for 1 or 2 turns before I staled, and then I did one hasty turn where I had only about a half hour to do my turn due to RL reasons.

I was mostly finding it annoying that the raiders that were supposed to be counter raiding died to the stale and weird AI spell casting - I still don't understand how they fit the summon and blade wind spells into that spell chain.

Part of it IS that I find Hinnom has a little bit too many strengths, and no matter what you say, having a PD that casts Blind repeatedly and at 20 PD can stand up to a SC long enough to allow for at least 4-5 castings of Blind from the PD with no extra casters or units in the province is a little bit too strong of a PD for a race that already has strong raiders, strong units, good battlefield magic, good map magic and good national summons and national healers.

It did somewhat annoy me that my amena spenta of fire got blinded (and consequently killed) by Province Defense.

If that is not top shelf PD, what do you consider to be top shelf PD?

[Hylobius]

If the two of you are happy with this ending then I am fine calling the game here. There is not a lot that I can do.

[Excist]

OK, officially calling it a win for Hinnom played by Nightfall.

Good game everybody.

[Mightypeon]

Grats to Hinnom, the diplo in the game was quite funny though.

[Nightfall]

If that is not top shelf PD, what do you consider to be top shelf PD?

Abysia is the gold standard for PD, good by itself and excellent synergy with it's own battelfield mages.

Strangely enough those PD Kohen's usually stand around buffing and throwing minor evocations, which has no real effect on the battle. As far as I can tell the AI decided to spam blindness with that one because it only had FB and you were fire immune; thus no evocations.

Thanks to everyone for the game, for anyone that may be interested my pretender was an Imprisoned Dom 7 E4/N6/B7 Blood Fountain with O3/H3/G3/M1.

[Mightypeon]

Vastly more sensible than my utterly retarded Imprisoned divine serpent with E4 N6 and dom 6.

[SpaceViking21]

I had an imprisoned Son of Fenrer with N8W4 and dom10

[Excist]

Awake Virtue with A2W6E5 and dom10. Great SC for early expansion and dom spread with a good array of self buffs and awe. And, most importantly: thematic for Caelum.