Nations - MA, CBM 1.6, max lvl 6, NI, Assimilation - Olm/Man and Louist/Ulm win!

[Valerius]

Summary

This is the third in a series of games (the last was Battleground (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=46213) if you're interested in checking out the rules for that one) where the central theme is that of limiting magic to level 6 and thereby removing the traditional endgame of army destroying magic and SCs (well aside from SC pretenders and possibly Jotunheim).

This time around I'm combining the limited magic theme with no indies (and I *really* mean no indies - see below) and Azurain's very fun Assimilation mod that let's you recruit some units from conquered capitols (somewhat altered for this game).

If you think you might be interested, download the attached mod and give it a try (note that there will almost certainly be some fixes before the game starts). If you notice any bugs please let me know.


Settings

Era: MA
Banned nations: All water nations, Ashdod
Number of players: 5
Map: FirstWorld (get map here (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=47561) and see attachments below for fixed start version of map for this game)
Mods: modified version of CBM 1.6 (see changes below)
Hosting: 24 hours until turn 20, 48 hours until turn 40, 72 hours thereafter
HoF: 15
Other settings default


Player roster

Arcoscephale - ghoul31
Eriu - Samhain
Man - Olm
Pangaea - Valerius
Ulm - Louist


Details

Limited magic - No magic above level 6. All globals also removed. After some discussion in previous games Mists of Deception was also banned as being problematic - though I don't quite remember if this was because it was too powerful or because of the (now fixed) bug that let it continue after the caster left the battlefield.

No indies - We will be playing on a no indies map. Furthermore, all magic sites that allow commander/troop recruitment have been removed. So if you want to diversify from your national units you'll either need to summon units or conquer another nation's cap (see below). Recruitment of mercenaries is allowed and given the lack of other options might make for some fierce bidding wars for the best units. If you come across a site that allows recruitment of units before the game begins please let me know so I can fix it. If it is after the game has begun of course just ignore it and don't recruit those units.

Assimilation mod - I have included Azurain's Assimilation mod in the game mod attached to this post. This mod allows a conqueror to recruit select units from an opponent's capitol. I have made some changes to the units available (see list below) in the aim of balancing them for this game.

Two things I considered in making the changes were avoiding making weaker nations especially too tempting a target (you'll notice that if you rush Ulm you won't be getting a forge bonus ;)) and providing too big a boost to the conquering nation (this is why I removed the cloud trapeze capable thugs from the glamour nations' lists).

Btw, comments are welcome of you think there are some major imbalances here.

Blood magic - The previous game in this series nerfed blood magic very heavily. There were only two blood nations in that game and playing Vanheim I was the only one who really got to develop a blood economy. IMO, the nerfs were too much so I've reduced the costs of blood summons, though they are still higher than base CBM 1.6. It is important to note that soul contracts, lifelong protections, and jade knives are all banned. Also, some blood magic spells below level 6 have been eliminated. If you are playing a blood nation take a careful look at what is available and what it costs.

Banned nations - In Battleground Ermor and Pan were banned due to freespawn issues in a game that didn't have battlefield clearing magic and Jotun because of recruitable SCs in a game without SC summons. I wasn't too happy leaving them out so I've made some changes in order to include them this time around.

Ermor is no longer a reanimating nation. In order to give them some compensation for this I gave them a level 0 version of Pale Riders that costs only 3 D gems instead of 10.

Pans no longer summon Maenads and the carrion commander summons have been removed. As compensation Pan has a level 1 spell that summons 10 Maenads for 1 N gem and a cheaper version of Construct Manikins that only costs 5 N gems.

I'm most worried about Jotun. I nerfed Skrattis from 2W2B 100% WBND to 1W1B 100% WBND. Also, their werewolf formed was reduced to 40 HP. They may still be too much for these settings but we'll see what happens.


List of units that can be recruited from an opponent's capitol
(units numbers and unit descriptions)

Arcoscephale
50 16 200 (slinger, hypaspist, chariot)
311 (mystic)

Ermor
50 664 665 668 (slinger, hastatus, principe, standard)
669 (thaumaturg)

Pythium
50 687 1840 (slinger, principe, hydra hatchling)
42 (theurg)

Man
59, 57 (longbowman, knight)
658, 152 (bard, mother of avalon)

Ulm
417 71 78 69 (crossbowman, black plate inf [x2], black knight)
748 (siege engineer)

Marignon
218, 133, 134, 217 (crossbowman, man at arms, royal guard, flags)
224 (witch hunter)

Mictlan
1883 725 (moon warrior, sun warrior)
1189 1192 (mictlan and moon priest)

T'ien Ch'i
797 800 802 789 (archer, footman, crossbowman, heavy horseman)
1891 (alchemist of the 5 elements)

Machaka
879 880 885 886 (archer, warrior, spider warrior, spider knight)
893 (sorcerer)

Agartha
1355 1676 1472 (infantry, crossbowman, pale one)
1471 1474 (pale one captain, golem crafter)

Abysia
372 983 (humanbred [x2])
85 923 (anathemant salamander, warlock apprentice)

Caelum
131 127 420 419 (warrior, archers, infantry, mammoths)
202 (caelian seraph)

C'tis
165 504 172 (infantry, falchioneer, elite warrior)
170 502 (lizard shaman, empoisoner)

Pangaea
228 234 27 707 (satyr, minotaur, centaurs [x2])
237 (dryad)

Vanheim
146 400 (einheres, skinshifters)
263 323 (vanherse, dwarf)

Jotunheim
282 300 278 (wolf riders, hurlers, jotun spearman)
913 274 (vaetti, jotun jarl)

Bandar Log
1121 1125 1130 1147 (atavi archers, infantry, bandar longbow, elephants)
1143 (guru)

Shinuyama
1311 1312 1392 1395 (bandit infantry/archers, bakemono warriors/archers)
1429 (uba)

Eriu
1785 1786 849 (fir bolg slingers, fir bolg infantry, daoine sidhe)
850 1774 (sidhe champion, bean sidhe)

[Samhain]

Eriu please.

[Valerius]

Sorry, I had already chosen Eriu. Is there another nation you might like?

I'll also move the player roster from the middle of that wall of text to a more visible spot.

[Samhain]

Oh, I guess reading helps. :)

I'm not sure if I'm in the mood for a different nation right now though. I've wanted to play Eriu or TNN in an MP game for quite some time. I'll think it over.

[Valerius]

Actually, I've thought it over and I've played a *lot* of TNN/Eriu (it's actually kind of a surprise if I don't play them ;)). I'm playing Pan in another game and having a lot of fun with them so I'll switch to Pan.

Can I mark you down as Eriu?

[Samhain]

That's very generous of you. Thank you. Yes, please put me down as Eriu.

[Valerius]

No problem! Welcome aboard.

Btw, since I'll be playing one of the nations that I made changes to in order to make them "playable" for this game I'll mention that if anyone has concerns about the cost/number of effects of the maenad/manikin spells please let me know as I'm open to changing them.

[Louist]

I'm willing to give Ulm a shot.

[Valerius]

Welcome!

[yugi24862]

What the hell, I'll play Shinu.

[Louist]

Had the mod crash when trying to load the tga file for new_ichtyid_warrior. It's completely possible I've made a mistake installing it, but I haven't yet had a similar problem with stock CBM.

[Valerius]

Welcome, yugi24862.

Louist, do you have any other mods active? You only want this one active. At one point I accidentally activated another version of CBM at the same time and that caused the game to crash. But it wasn't the same error you got. That seems like a missing graphic.

Btw, you just need to save the mod for this game into your mods folder - it uses the same graphics folder as CBM so no other files are needed.

[Louist]

Hmm... I may well have had something else enabled without noticing.

[Valerius]

Ok, if you still have problems even with no other mods active please let me know and I'll try to replicate it.

[ghoul31]

arco

[Valerius]

Welcome, ghoul31. That gives us 5 players. I'll keep recruitment open a bit longer to see if we can get a sixth.

Btw, there will be a fixed version of the mod. In a test game I noticed a couple of sites that allow recruitment of villians. That's easy enough to avoid by just not recruiting them but I also realized I forgot to remove Bloodletting from the spell list. I used this last game but stopped using it as I felt it's too much for these game settings.

[Olm]

I'd try Man.

[Valerius]

Great, that makes six players. Welcome, Olm.

I can't make the final changes to the mod now but you can already design and create your pretenders as the final version won't affect that.

Any map suggestions? Sixlands is excellent but it feels like I've played all my recent games on it so I'd like to find something different.

[Valerius]

Here are some map possibilities. First a couple from two of Dominions' main map makers:

Elmokki's Realm of Rampaging Roaches (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=47463)
PashaDawg's Threelake (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com//showthread.php?t=35952) (note that we would play a version without the special defenders)

And a couple from players in this game:

Louist's FirstWorld (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=47561)
My Greenland (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=46770)

In some cases we may need to reduce the number of water provinces or assign starts and of course make the map no indie, but that's not a problem.

And, if we can't come to an agreement we can always play Sixlands. :)

[Olm]

I'd like First World or RRR.
Greenland is too balanced for my taste and threelake just doesn't convince me on first look.

[Samhain]

I'm not very fond of symmetrical maps myself. My top pick from the above list would be First World.

To make the water less of an issue, I find dead seas to be pretty effective. I would think combining provinces would make ships much more powerful. Though, that could be interesting too.

[Valerius]

I see the points regarding symmetrical maps. They have their virtues but asymmetrical maps are usually more visually appealing. Since I've been playing so much on perfectly symmetrical map, I'd also like to try something different.

FirstWorld looks good to me. And making the seas dead sounds like a good solution for dealing with the water provinces. The only thing I'll mention is that starting in the middle of the map and also having a lot of low pop wasteland provinces will be very tough for the nation that starts there. Maybe we could reduce the wasteland in that area and add one or two more bottlenecks so it's more defensible? Disconnecting 38 from 25 and 29 is the main one that comes to mind. And/or disconnect 54 from 53?

Louist, if we go with your map would you like to make the changes? If you don't want to I'll do so but of course it's your call.

[Olm]

There seem still to be some issues with the mods. I played Ulm against AI, and my archers had only daggers, no bows.
So especially Louist as Ulm should look into that!

[Valerius]

I've just uploaded a revised version of the mod.

It looks like the problem with EA Ulm was due to the unit's weapons being listed by name rather than weapon number. It was specific to EA Ulm and wouldn't have affected us but I went ahead and changed it anyway. But a good catch; if anyone else notices problems with their nation please let me know.

Here is a list of other changes:

* Found some more sites that allowed mage recruitment and removed them.

* Removed Bloodletting.

* Reduced number of effects of Call Maenad spell from 15 to 10 and made it level 1 instead of 0.

* Increased cost of Pangaea's Construct Manikin spell from 3 gems to 5.

If anyone has concerns about the Pan spells please let me know. I originally added these with the idea of compensating them for the loss of those aspects of the nation and with the idea that someone else would be playing them. But it feels a bit strange to be adding and pricing spells that impact the nation I'm now playing. I'm quite willing to remove them or nerf them if anyone has issues with the spells.

Btw, the revised version of the mod has "v2" at the end of the name when you look at the list of available mods in-game. You can also tell you have the new version if Bloodletting is no longer on the list of spells.

[Louist]

Obviously I like First World, and have enjoyed my test games using it.

That said, the more I play it the more I find dubious borders and provinces that are scaled a tad small. As it was my first map attempt, I didn't realize the importance of saving a master copy of the map, with separate layers :(

My only real option, then, would be to stretch them image and hope the quality doesn't drop too far, and edit the .map file to ensure the in-game borders more closely resemble those that I've drawn. (I've been putting my spare time into working on new, hopefully more polished maps, which has kept me from trying this out.)

Still, it's a perfectly serviceable map, with problems that are really just cosmetic.

A question, Valerius: Is construction 8 empty of items? I understand you left some high level unique non-craftable items in for random events, but is there anything else?

Also, have you tweaked astral sites at all? Or am I just having poor luck? In a play through with an astral pretender I ended up finding only 2 non-capital sites after probing the my two-thirds of the map. These accounted for 2 pearls as opposed to the 60 or 70 gems I was pulling in (without having searched for any death, and only minor looks into water and fire).

[Louist]

There seem still to be some issues with the mods. I played Ulm against AI, and my archers had only daggers, no bows.
So especially Louist as Ulm should look into that!

Oh, nice catch! I didn't even notice that at all! (Though I didn't recruit many ranged units at all, and by the time I had, I was in comp-stomp mod and didn't feel the need to watch the battles.

Oops, EA Ulm? That might explain things better :)

[Louist]

Louist, if we go with your map would you like to make the changes? If you don't want to I'll do so but of course it's your call.

I'm sort of working backwards through the posts in an odd order, as you've no doubt noticed.

I can make the changes to neighbors, if we don't mind the existing borders as they're drawn, or me fudging them somewhat by replacing the dotted lines with solid ones.

As for the wasteland, I can set them all to no-spawn, so no one is forced to start there. It will make for a tighter fit along the sides, though.

[Valerius]

That said, the more I play it the more I find dubious borders and provinces that are scaled a tad small. As it was my first map attempt, I didn't realize the importance of saving a master copy of the map, with separate layers :(

...

Still, it's a perfectly serviceable map, with problems that are really just cosmetic.

I see what you're saying about some of the provinces being small but it's a nice map so let's give it a try. In addition to the work you mentioned the other things we'll need for this game are setting all the provinces to disallow indie recruitment and using Samhain's idea of dead seas. And thanks for spending the time to do this! :)

A question, Valerius: Is construction 8 empty of items? I understand you left some high level unique non-craftable items in for random events, but is there anything else?

Constr. 8 is completely empty of items. In Battleground we set all items up to level 6 to level 0 (the idea was to get a quick start and get right to the fightin'). This caused a problem because the game didn't have any items to choose from at levels 2/4/6 if a random event indicated the player receive an item from those levels. So we set some lower power level 8 items to levels 2/4/6 (with extremely high forging costs so they wouldn't be forged). However in this game we have normal research until level 6 so there was no need for that (afaik random events never choose unique items).

Also, have you tweaked astral sites at all? Or am I just having poor luck? In a play through with an astral pretender I ended up finding only 2 non-capital sites after probing the my two-thirds of the map. These accounted for 2 pearls as opposed to the 60 or 70 gems I was pulling in (without having searched for any death, and only minor looks into water and fire).

The only sites I removed were ones that allowed troop/commander recruitment. I don't think S sites are disproportionately represented in those...

Btw, if you want to run some more tests a quick way to do it is temporarily add the following lines to the bottom of the mod:

#selectspell "Acashic Record"
#researchlevel 0
#path 0 6
#pathlevel 0 1
#fatiguecost 100
#end

This will set Acashic Record as a level 0 spell costing 1 N gem to cast. Then start a game with several human played nations (no need for AI), each starting with 9 provinces, and start site searching them.

Be sure to either remove these lines or just copy over your "test mod" with another copy of the "real mod" before the game begins.

[Valerius]

I can make the changes to neighbors, if we don't mind the existing borders as they're drawn, or me fudging them somewhat by replacing the dotted lines with solid ones.

I think solid lines instead of dotted ones are fine - definitely no need to rework the map graphics.

But if we go with your idea about everyone starting on the sides then we probably wouldn't even want to change the borders.

Hmm, tough call. This gets me wondering if we should set fixed start locations? The top locations on the east and west of the map would have less access to the empty middle of the map but they'd also have the most defensible positions, which seems like a fair trade.

In any case, I'm flexible. I'm not really concerned about everything being balanced; I was mainly worried that the person who started in the middle wouldn't have fun because they'd be surrounded and struggling to get enough gold to do anything so I just wanted to do something to help that position out.

[Valerius]

Btw, I only removed magic sites allow recruitment (in order to emphasize the "no indies" aspect and increase the value of conquering an opponent's cap) - I didn't remove any other sites. In one of my test games the Ultimate Gateway popped up and I imagine if you get that or one of the forge bonus sites it will be just as much of a game changer here as it would be in a normal game. Definitely something to keep in mind with your site searching strategy.

[Samhain]

I think you have a good point about the center area, Valerius. Fixed start locations sound good to me. But, like you, I'm flexible.

[Valerius]

Ok, since it didn't appear anyone had downloaded version 2 of the mod yet I took the opportunity to make a version 3. :p The only change is moving Pan's carrion summon from level 3 to 5 (seems reasonable that the better version require a higher research level).

[Valerius]

Here are some possible start locations. I think it leaves at least 4 provinces between caps. Of course I would take it with a grain of salt since I botched the start locations in Battleground and LDiCesare ended up fixing them. :p

But I think the idea of leaving the middle area open and starting everyone on the sides is good, either with fixed starts or just setting the middle provinces as no starts. And if we do this there will be no need to change province borders in the middle provinces.

[Louist]

It was just poor luck on my part, then. Not that's I'm too phased by it. That particular build just didn't do it for me.

Ok, Fixed starting locations with no spawns in the center, It's really just a few minutes work. I think that may end up being a more interesting match. There would be somewhat less breathing room, but its totally manageable for 6 people.

You start locations look fine to me. Not too unbalanced, not identical.

Oh- Dead Seas is a concept I'll need explained to me. I could just remove their province markers and let them serve as background, but that really does cut this map in two, and seems to cut down on a lot of possibilities.

And one last thing before I return to my day's duties: Is removing Indy recruitment something that's done on the map's end or the mod's? I certainly don't mind making the changes, I just need to be pointed in the right direction.

[Valerius]

I agree that it will be interesting to keep the water provinces rather than just make them background.

Setting no indies and dead sea provinces is done in the map file.


Each of the land provinces would need the following command:

#setland [provincenumber]
#poptype 99

Poptype 99 is higher than the existing poptypes so it will have no recruitable units.


Each of the water provinces would need the following command:

#setland [provincenumber]
#poptype 99
#population 0
#killfeatures

Also uses poptype 99 to remove recruitable units but adds population 0 (no gold income) and #killfeatures (removes magic sites).

[Valerius]

Expansion will be interesting with all of us on the sides of the map. We'll have elongated empires as people go towards the middle of the map. And of course possibly early wars if someone cuts off another's access to the middle. ;)

[Olm]

Province 96 is painted as forest, but is farmland. I guess it should be forest.

[Valerius]

I certainly don't mind making the changes, I just need to be pointed in the right direction.

It occurred to me that since we are going to start on the sides of the map there's no need to make changes to the map image in terms of providing more protection for someone starting in the middle of the map. That also means there's no reason for me to push the work onto you. ;) So I went ahead and made the changes. The .map file for this game is attached to the first post. I gave it a different name so it wouldn't overwrite the original.

Here are the changes I made:

* All land provinces set to no indies status.

* All water provinces set to no indies status and also no gold or magic sites.

* I removed the nostart status from province 89 - note that this will be the only start location with fewer than four neighbors (will have 3). I think it will be ok, especially since one of the neighbors is a mountain province.

* As per Olm's observation I set province 96 to forest to match the map image.

* I noticed water province 70 didn't have any connections so I added them.

* Also, water province 73 connected to land provinces 66 and 76. This didn't match the map image so I removed those connections.

[Valerius]

The game is now setup on the llamaserver and ready to accept pretenders. Please be sure to download the updated mod and map file from the first post.

Note that I have SixLands as a placeholder map. It will be replaced before we start the game but I figured I'd hold off uploading the revised map for now in case anyone notices errors.

[Louist]

It occurred to me that since we are going to start on the sides of the map there's no need to make changes to the map image in terms of providing more protection for someone starting in the middle of the map. That also means there's no reason for me to push the work onto you. ;) So I went ahead and made the changes. The .map file for this game is attached to the first post. I gave it a different name so it wouldn't overwrite the original.

Thanks for that. I ended up getting home so late last night that I didn't even go near the computer.

[Valerius]

Thanks for that. I ended up getting home so late last night that I didn't even go near the computer.

No problem! Thanks for offering to make the changes and for creating the map in the first place. The map is now uploaded and I see we're only missing Shin's pretender.



Yugi, I tried PMing you but you don't have messages on (unfortunately they are off by default when you create an account). You'll want to activate them so you can receive diplomatic correspondence. And of course, when you have a chance please upload your pretender and we'll get this game going. :)

[Valerius]

Sorry for the delay in starting. I'm bumping this thread so yugi hopefully sees my new, attention getting, subject line. ;)

[Samhain]

This delay worked out well for me. If the game started with my first couple of pretender designs, I would have been in a lot of trouble.

[Louist]

All in all we won't be losing too much time--seems llamaserver is still having some issues. It was down completely for some time, and it's currently hanging on a game. My other two games have all their turns submitted, and just waiting for llama to give the server whatever kick it needs to start hosting turns again.

As for my pretender, I'm trying something I've never really tried before. Without going into details... it will be interesting to see what happens. I'm not totally confident I really grasp all the mechanics behind the concept.

[Samhain]

Actually, I have now reached the a sort of free-form unconventional stage of design myself. The lack of access to indie mages is something I've had a tough time fully appreciating. It should be interesting anyway.

[Valerius]

The lack of indie mages is difficult. While no indie games are not uncommon I don't recall seeing any that also removed magic sites that allowed unit recruitment. The idea was to really emphasize national units and encourage getting opponents' caps to diversify your magic and troops.

Based on the previous games it's tough to say if a certain type of build is best. Nations have done well with SCs, good scales and bless (though perhaps to a lesser degree on the latter). Without any indies you also have to consider how you'll get access to paths like nature that you'd commonly get from indies (assuming of course your national mages don't have that path) so filling in the gaps in your nation's magic paths is obviously important as well. Some paths are also just difficult to break into with summons. There actually aren't any summons with air magic. Astral depends on getting the right randoms on either hidden in sand or spectres.

This is definitely an experimental game and I can't make any promises as to balance. Hopefully it will be fun, though. :)

[Valerius]

I haven't heard from yugi and as far as I can tell he only had one other game and went AI this turn. That may have been because the position was hopeless but if that was his only other game and he's forgotten about this one I don't know when he'll be back on the forums.

I'm going to open up recruitment again. Thanks for your patience.

[yugi24862]

Sorry for not posting, I havent been checking shrapnel too much. I went AI my other after being rushed by Himmon as Marveni, but I cant play anyways as i just found out I wont have dom3 acess for a week in about a week.

[Valerius]

How about if I leave recruitment open for another day and if there's no interest we just start with five players? If we go this route we'd have to at least change the start locations but it will also mean a very high average number of provinces per player.

[Samhain]

A sixth player would be appreciated, but otherwise five nations is fine with me. Though an 18 provinces per player ratio is more than I'm used to, it sort of lends itself to the game format...or at least my concept for it.

[Valerius]

It's a higher ratio of provinces/player than I'm used to as well. But that's a good point that it does lend itself to the game format.

Assuming we don't get another player soon, what does everyone think about these start locations? Not perfectly balanced of course, but I tried to avoid putting someone directly in the center of the map.

[Samhain]

Just my two cents, but the nation in the upper left seems a bit on its own. How about the following, it puts the left two much closer and gives the nation in the middle 6 bordering provinces.

32
79
81
38
50

If it helps, each could have its terrain type set to plain, or whatever is the absence of mountains, forest, swamp, farmland, etc.

[Valerius]

Thanks for the feedback. :) I like your changes (btw I assume you meant 28, not 38, as a start location).

I don't think terrain will matter unless it's something like swamp, which would increase the fatigue of units without swamp survival. All of the provinces you suggested are either no specific terrain or border mountains, which I don't think pose a problem.

I'll go ahead and change the map file to reflect your suggestions and, if there's no objections, upload the revised map and start the game on Wed. So if anyone has last minute pretender changes get them in quick. :)

[Samhain]

Yes, you are correct. I meant 28 not 38 for the middle start location.

[Valerius]

Took a little longer to get to making the map changes than I expected but the game has now begun. :)

You don't need to download the 5 start version of the map file but I've attached it to the first post if you're interested (also kept the original 6 start version attachment since the llamaserver links to that post).

[ghoul31]

where is the tga file for the map?

[Valerius]

Just attached it to the first post. You can also find it here (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=47561).

[Louist]

Hey, guys. I'm planning on going camping August 20th, and I'd like to give sufficient warning. If I'm not dead by then, I'll find myself a sub.

[Valerius]

Thanks for the advance notice. I'm sure we can figure something out. If you get a sub we can also make it easier on them by slowing down the hosting interval during your vacation so they don't have as many turns to complete.

[Samhain]

I may need the same consideration while I am on vacation the week of August 6th. I am still working out the technical details for how I will have internet access that week. A slowed down pace will likely benefit me as well as my sub, should I determine that I need one.

[Valerius]

Sure, no problem. This is vacation season so these things are to be expected. Let me know when you have a better idea about Internet access, etc.

As an aside, one of the nice things about Dominions it that it can easily be run from a flash drive, making it very portable. Of course whether you'll have Internet access or even want to do Dominions turns on your vacation is another matter entirely. ;)

[Louist]

Thanks for the advance notice. I'm sure we can figure something out. If you get a sub we can also make it easier on them by slowing down the hosting interval during your vacation so they don't have as many turns to complete.

That would work out nicely.

[Valerius]

We've been moving at a good pace and may not need the time yet but, as per the game description, I've changed the hosting interval to 48 hours.

[ghoul31]

ok, so its 3 on 1. It seems that everyone that plays dominions are gankers and cowards.

[Valerius]

I felt kind of bad about attacking after I got your PM and realized Ulm had decided to attack after all, but I had a commitment to help Eriu so I went ahead and did so. FWIW, your odds just improved somewhat since war has broken out between Man and Pangaea. So, the gorgon queen of Pangaea is now on her way to pay Man a visit. :evil:

[Valerius]

As an aside, when we only ended up with 5 players I considered that it might be better to have a no diplo game but I didn't want to change a game setting at the last moment.

[Olm]

Some out of character comments:
I have had a lot of fun in this game, thank you for that. And I learned a lot, but thats nothing to wonder in my second MP game. (In fact turnwise it has topped my first one).
I think diplomacy is very difficult with so few nations and a clear gap between the 3 major and the two minor powers. But thats no reason to forbid it. In fact I think more about diplomacy than anything else with this game.

Now hear the words from Igraine, Mistress of Avalon:
It is not acceptable to Us that Pangaea and Ulm conquer the minor nations of Arcoscephale and Eriu. We will not stand aside while those nations are assimilated. So Ulm and Pangaea: You both have to withdraw your troops, or We will have to take proper actions.
As a sign of good will to Pangaea We will not push Our attack further. In fact We will retreat out of Giant's Rest. But don't misunderstand this as fear or weakness. We will come back, if need be.

[Valerius]

I have had a lot of fun in this game, thank you for that. And I learned a lot, but thats nothing to wonder in my second MP game. (In fact turnwise it has topped my first one).

I'm glad! :)

I think diplomacy is very difficult with so few nations and a clear gap between the 3 major and the two minor powers.

I agree. While I hate the micro that comes with it, more diplomatic options is one advantage of larger games. Even if we had managed to get 8 players things would have been better in this respect.

Now hear the words from Igraine, Mistress of Avalon:
It is not acceptable to Us that Pangaea and Ulm conquer the minor nations of Arcoscephale and Eriu. We will not stand aside while those nations are assimilated. So Ulm and Pangaea: You both have to withdraw your troops, or We will have to take proper actions.
As a sign of good will to Pangaea We will not push Our attack further. In fact We will retreat out of Giant's Rest. But don't misunderstand this as fear or weakness. We will come back, if need be.

Very well, the (very short) conflict between Man and Pan over worthless ocean provinces has ended. And in fact we are not currently attacking Arco but merely stepped in to help Eriu when their capitol was put under siege.

On another note, I think I may be setting a record for most mountain/border mountain provinces without any E sites.

[Louist]

I really should check these forums more often, it seems. Arco, I was unaware that Pan had made any aggressive action against you. That said, my attack was motivated, in no small part, by my fear that you and Eriu would exhaust yourselves, and utter hardly a whimper as Pan gobbled you both up. As it appears Pan and Man have called a truce, that fear has hardly subsided!

My attack was otherwise motivated by the fact that of the three nations that border me, you were the sole one did not make any diplomatic contact, and you had no armies at hand and an capital ripe for the taking.

That said, I am not unreasonable. I will amend my orders and withdraw my forces if you apologize for your slanderous comments.

In response to Man, I have to wonder aloud whether you would prove to be such a champion to the minor powers if you hadn't been cut off from them yourself.

[Olm]

You may very well wonder, but this is not about "woulds" and "ifs", but about hard facts. And the fact is you attacked Arcoscephale. So We will very closely watch your next actions.


Just a comment: Could it be, that the three of us are just too reasonable for a War-Game? ;)

[Valerius]

Just a comment: Could it be, that the three of us are just too reasonable for a War-Game? ;)

Lol. Actually it's funny because when I read your statement I thought you meant it sincerely and I think you may be right that there isn't a high level of killer instinct in this group. Ghoul can definitely be aggressive but he tends to choose 1 vs 1 fights rather than jumping in on a dogpile so that he can profit at little cost (uh, actually I'm more inclined to do that than him - I've been trying to improve my killer instinct ;)).

Fighting is good (that to me is the most fun part of the game) but dogpiles aren't much fun (unless the nation being dogpiled is so strong they are actually on an even footing with their many attackers) so I can see ghoul not being too happy about it.

Ghoul and I have been in a lot of games together and he's a man of few words. That can definitely work against him in games that have diplo. Like Louist, Arco was the last nation I had contact with.

I think another thing that works against Arco in this game is that he is the only strong astral nation. That makes him scary but it also makes getting access to his mystics probably the best prize in game. I actually had some concern that it was too good a mage to give other nations access to and that may prove to be the case.

The problem is if Ulm is no longer going to attack Arco that leaves Eriu facing Arco alone and I'm not going to abandon Eriu so I guess that means I'll be attacking Arco again, which means Man and I will be back at war, which will remove the threat to Ulm of Man attacking him so he'll probably grab some of Arco's provinces, and we're right back where we started. :p

[Louist]

We certainly seem eager enough not to fight.

[Louist]

I think another thing that works against Arco in this game is that he is the only strong astral nation. That makes him scary but it also makes getting access to his mystics probably the best prize in game. I actually had some concern that it was too good a mage to give other nations access to and that may prove to be the case.


Mystics are definitely too valuable a prize. Astral, combined with their fantastic diversity makes Arco far too tasty a target. Priestesses, even with their perfect healing, would be a better choice.

[Louist]

I just saw the results of last turn. Ghoul's not out of the fight just yet. He rather neatly decimated my forces :P

[Samhain]

Just a comment: Could it be, that the three of us are just too reasonable for a War-Game?

You see, I agree with Valerius that there may be more than a grain of truth in that statement. As in Nations, I too often find some justification for a belligerent act in which I clearly lack the strength, skill, or both to succeed. But, I feel absolutely unable to resist based on what is a "justified response to an existential threat" or some other nonsensical claim for precedence based on an amateur understanding of world history. And, with only two notable exceptions in many, and one which involved me playing a giant nation with a good bless, it has not worked out in my favor. Perhaps Dominions3 is not the best model of history, but if reason tends to prevail over belligerence, it can't be all bad.

Anyway, I'm not sure what I am babbling about here, but that was a very dramatic turn. :)

[Louist]

Admittedly, I don't have a lot of MP experience, but not even in single player have I lost so many men so quickly.

[Valerius]

I think another thing that works against Arco in this game is that he is the only strong astral nation. That makes him scary but it also makes getting access to his mystics probably the best prize in game. I actually had some concern that it was too good a mage to give other nations access to and that may prove to be the case.


Mystics are definitely too valuable a prize. Astral, combined with their fantastic diversity makes Arco far too tasty a target. Priestesses, even with their perfect healing, would be a better choice.

Priestesses were my first choice but then I got worried about, for instance, Jotun getting ahold of them or maybe another astral nation getting access to Arco's risk free mind hunts.

Well, we could always make a house rule that whoever conquers Arco (if anyone does) agrees not to recruit mystics. Or we could just view conquering Arco as being the equivalent of casting Arcane Nexus in a normal game and thus justification for a dogpile. ;)


I just saw the results of last turn. Ghoul's not out of the fight just yet. He rather neatly decimated my forces :P

Admittedly, I don't have a lot of MP experience, but not even in single player have I lost so many men so quickly.

Told you Arco was scary. And he hasn't even started yet with mind hunts, soul slay, gifts from heaven... Man may come to regret protecting Arco from the dogpile. :p


Also, I want to clarify something. It isn't necessarily fun to be dogpiled but sometimes that happens and you just make the best of it. Actually, thinking it over, it can be fun to fight a losing battle and make your opponents pay as high a price as possible for taking you down. I had quite a lot of fun in a recent game doing exactly that. Added bonus: the micromanagement goes down as the game goes on!

So nobody is under any obligation to make fights fair or should feel they can't play to their own best interest. There can after all be only one true god.

[Valerius]

In other news, the Pangaean scouting network reports disturbing signs of a buildup of forces along Man's border with Ulm. Pangaea would look unfavorably on any hostile action Man might take against Ulm.

[Valerius]

You see, I agree with Valerius that there may be more than a grain of truth in that statement. As in Nations, I too often find some justification for a belligerent act in which I clearly lack the strength, skill, or both to succeed. But, I feel absolutely unable to resist based on what is a "justified response to an existential threat" or some other nonsensical claim for precedence based on an amateur understanding of world history. And, with only two notable exceptions in many, and one which involved me playing a giant nation with a good bless, it has not worked out in my favor. Perhaps Dominions3 is not the best model of history, but if reason tends to prevail over belligerence, it can't be all bad.

Anyway, I'm not sure what I am babbling about here, but that was a very dramatic turn. :)

I think I see what you're saying here. It's seems like you are inclined to role play your nations, rather than a more pragmatic approach to choosing your nation's path. By far, most D3 MP games fall into the pragmatic category. Jotun and Van may be ancient enemies but if an alliance suits the players running those nations then there will likely be one. ;)

[Olm]

Well, that was a great battle in Arcoscephale, this turn. My congratulations to arco for this victory.
@ Pan
We just want to be sure that Ulm does not stomp on the weaker nations. But then those "weaker" nations clearly showed teeth this month and perhaps don't need one to stand up for them at all.
And just as a comment: Ulm did not stand up for you the way you did now, when We announced our short campaign against Pangaea.

[Louist]

To be fair, Ulm is hardly a forum regular, and that war had already ended before it came to their attention :)

[Olm]

To be fair We informed our good neighbors of Ulm of our imminent attack and received good luck wishes.

[Valerius]

Well, to be honest, I was standing up for my self-interest more than for Ulm. Pan is all about the balance of power - we believe it should be balanced in our favor. :D

As far as Arco goes, he's only weak in terms of province count. In terms of nation strength he's probably the most powerful nation in this game. Just wait until he's got his mind hunters geared up...

[Valerius]

To be fair We informed our good neighbors of Ulm of our imminent attack and received good luck wishes.

Wait, now I'm confused. Was my threat completely ineffective and you'll be attacking anyway? Or did you decide to call it off?

Olm, you are really very honorable but I think we're going to have to work on making you more ruthless. If you have a NAP with someone then I'd give notice but if not then all bets are off. After all, you've got a stealthy nation: just sneak your troops into someone's territory and when you're ready declare "Surprise! All your (unforted) province are belong to us.".

[Olm]

To be fair We informed our good neighbors of Ulm of our imminent attack and received good luck wishes.

Wait, now I'm confused. Was my threat completely ineffective and you'll be attacking anyway? Or did you decide to call it off?

No, my comment referred to my attack against you some turns ago. I had (still have?) a NAP with Ulm and informed him, that I will attack you.
So he knew of our quarrel right from the start. He wished me good luck against you.

But honestly, this game is very difficult diplomatically. Especially for me. I cannot do anything without fighting two strong nations at once. On the other hand my advantage in research will evaporate as soon as everyone researches all spells. :confused:

[Valerius]

Diplomacy is tricky and things are changing a lot in this game. And again, with so few nations options are limited.

My concern was that Man and Arco together would overwhelm Ulm, leaving me in a bad position. 1 vs 1 I think Ulm and Man would have a fun and fair fight.

I'm going to simplify things. Ghoul, Arco worries me a lot. I'm going to kill you (or die trying). I think I can keep Arco busy enough to keep him off Ulm's back, in which case I have no objection to Ulm and Man fighting it out 1 vs 1. So, everyone can decide their course of action based on that. Man and Ulm can face off 1 vs 1 while I fight Arco, or you can all dogpile me if I get to be too big a threat. ;)

[ghoul31]

I rank last in just about every category. But I'm some big threat. Yea right. You are so full of it.

[Louist]

To be fair We informed our good neighbors of Ulm of our imminent attack and received good luck wishes.

To be fair, you are quite correct!

[Louist]

I rank last in just about every category. But I'm some big threat. Yea right. You are so full of it.

You have several distinct advantages, even at last place. First, you have the aforementioned monopoly in Astral, which gives you the most powerful remote attack spell, and access to communions which opens up, for you, almost every battlefield spell in the game.

Second, and most dangerous, I think, is that you have ready access to trampling units that (as I painfully learned) you can field in great numbers, despite having only two forts, last I checked. Even my cavalry is small enough for your chariots to squash! I'm not sure I can field anything immune to the effect, besides the behemoth, but I can't create those in enough numbers to actually get a return on that investment.

In a game without any indy elephants and no high-level summons, that's huge.

But credit where it is due: You did a fantastic job in the battle over Arco. I'd love to end this war now, but I obviously cannot blame you if you want to continue!

[Olm]

Well, perhaps its because I've never seen an astral nation on the rampage, but to me these threats seem rather dim and distant. And anyway the situation does not improve with Pan having access to th Astral Mages of Arco.
So my reaction to recent development:

We, Igraine, Mistress of Avalon, propose to the nation of Arcoscephale an alliance against all and every enemy of Our two great nations, until either all those enemies are vanquished or one of Our nations has perished for good.

[Louist]

I'm afraid the subtleties of diplomacy are not one of Ulm's strengths. We do not know whether to consider ourselves still at war with Arcoscephale or not, as it is unclear whether their chariots are merely retaking their lands, or whether they plan to continue marching on our lands.

Without word one way or the other from Arco, we must continue what harassment we have left to us. If you wish us to stop, just say the word.

In other news, no less than 3 Bards of Man were caught red-handed trying to steal secrets from our capital of Ulm. They refused to yield, and the Black Guardians were forced to slay them.

[Valerius]

I'm afraid the subtleties of diplomacy are not one of Ulm's strengths. We do not know whether to consider ourselves still at war with Arcoscephale or not, as it is unclear whether their chariots are merely retaking their lands, or whether they plan to continue marching on our lands.

Without word one way or the other from Arco, we must continue what harassment we have left to us. If you wish us to stop, just say the word.

I think Arco is just taking back his territories. He probably would have left troops in 24 if he were planning on continuing to attack you. If you need a way to withdraw your PoD without fighting Arco let me know and we can route him through my territory (though I just realized he has pills of water breathing so retreating through the water is another option).

This was a quiet turn but there may be some fireworks next turn: Arco's chariots and elephants vs. Pan's naked women and carousing revelers. Be sure to get your scouts to 46 and 33 so you don't miss the fun!


In other news, no less than 3 Bards of Man were caught red-handed trying to steal secrets from our capital of Ulm. They refused to yield, and the Black Guardians were forced to slay them.

Pan will have to keep an eye out for those troublemakers as well. In Man and Pan's previous short war some of those rabble rousers caused discontent among the populace. They were never found and are likely still hiding in our territory. However, harpies are patrolling in force and the troublemakers will surely be discovered and dealt with appropriately.

In the northeast, Man's troops have again massed in 66. However, the defense of the fort in 62 is strong and it seems unlikely that the walls will be breached before reinforcements arrive.

[Louist]

In a show of good faith, the Prince of Death is removing himself from Arco's territory, and ordering all harassment to stop. Ulm shall stand down to repair its damaged pride and reputation.

[Olm]

We think it absolutely scandalous how Ulm boasts about the slaughter of three innocent artists. Man rejects any proposed connections of Our nation to these poor individuals other than them being Man citizens. Thus We protest sharply against this unjustly and barbarian act of violence against Our peaceful, art loving brethren.

[Olm]

Our offer seems not to even be worth an answer to Arcescophale. We take this behaviour as a grave insult and stop all diplomatic connections to Arcoscephale. If Arcoscephales only means of communication is crying and weeping, its not Our task to deny them reasons to do so. Nonetheless in the best interest of Our nation we cannot simply watch Pangaea swallow Arcoscephale. We need to at least take some advantage from this, so as from now on the nations of Man and Pangaea are at war.

[Louist]

We think it absolutely scandalous how Ulm boasts about the slaughter of three innocent artists. Man rejects any proposed connections of Our nation to these poor individuals other than them being Man citizens. Thus We protest sharply against this unjustly and barbarian act of violence against Our peaceful, art loving brethren.

Man need not feel worried, the "artists" didn't give up their employer before they drew steel on the Black Guardians of Peace and Order.

[Valerius]

Nonetheless in the best interest of Our nation we cannot simply watch Pangaea swallow Arcoscephale. We need to at least take some advantage from this, so as from now on the nations of Man and Pangaea are at war.

No worries; we have enough naked ladies for everyone!

The anticipated Pan/Arco battle didn't materialize, however Man kicked things off very nicely, using armies, stealth forces and a fully equipped thug. So, first round to Man - but there's still plenty of fighting left.

[Olm]

No worries; we have enough naked ladies for everyone!

Sending naked ladies against longbowmen. What a cruel world is this?

[Olm]

Bitter defeat against the monstrous gorgon!

But I have one question concerning game mechanics:Is it correct that even stone beings like the crusher are petrified by the gorgon?

[Valerius]

Bitter defeat against the monstrous gorgon!

Well, as you pointed out, the naked ladies do need some help. ;)

But I have one question concerning game mechanics:Is it correct that even stone beings like the crusher are petrified by the gorgon?

Yes, monsters with the stone being attribute will still be petrified by the gorgon (and the Aegis, a unique magic item not present in this game). However, they will not be petrified by the Stone Sword (another unique item).

So when fighting the gorgon you want either ranged attacks or high MR units for melee battle.

[Olm]

Well, as you pointed out, the naked ladies do need some help. ;)

:mad:

But I have one question concerning game mechanics:Is it correct that even stone beings like the crusher are petrified by the gorgon?

Yes, monsters with the stone being attribute will still be petrified by the gorgon (and the Aegis, a unique magic item not present in this game). However, they will not be petrified by the Stone Sword (another unique item).

In my opinion stone beings should be immune to the effect. Either they turn to stone which shouldn't bother them or they instantly die, which as lifeless shouldn't bother them either. So what destroys them?
Well, I have to live with the rules as they are.

So when fighting the gorgon you want either ranged attacks or high MR units for melee battle.

Yes,I figured that much. But you are quite well protected against ranged and I don't know how to get anything to lets say MR 20. (The Thug had MR 13 and died instantly). I guess I will have to regroup and figure something out.

[Valerius]

In my opinion stone beings should be immune to the effect. Either they turn to stone which shouldn't bother them or they instantly die, which as lifeless shouldn't bother them either. So what destroys them?
Well, I have to live with the rules as they are.

I see what you're saying and it would hardly be unbalancing to make stone units immune but I also don't think it's moddable and I guess it's WAD since I don't think it's on the bug list. Not really sure of the thematic logic, though. Btw, I ran a quick test and blindness doesn't help either. So even if you can't see the gorgon she'll still get you.

Yes,I figured that much. But you are quite well protected against ranged and I don't know how to get anything to lets say MR 20. (The Thug had MR 13 and died instantly). I guess I will have to regroup and figure something out.

Yeah, it was basically 50/50 that your thug would die each time he attacked. When you factor in his poor attack skill I figured the gorgon would survive long enough to kill him. I was actually more worried about your other troops and that you might bring in reinforcements.

As far as thugs equipped for killing her, you could try summoning something like sleepers or bane lords (if you have D access) or even use your recruitable lord wardens. Possibly give them a forged weapon and rainbow armor if you'd like to boost their MR and then have mothers of avalon cast gift of flight so the thugs are attacking while the gorgon is still buffing. You could also use a W random crone to cast quickness on the thugs.

[Olm]

I might be a noob (in MP), but I do not have to be educated by my enemy ;)
That just feels like not being taken seriously. And I still hope that you will regret that.
I figured by myself that I have Lord Wardens with MR 16. But thanks for the information about the rainbow armor, didn't know about its MR buff. But its rather weak as armors go.
I have to deal with some Barbarians and a Vampire count for now, but I will come back to you, fear not.

[Olm]

BTW: If I have a unit with multiple attacks, does it have to check multiple times against petrification.

And your tests, do you do them in a special tool, or do you set up battles in an editor? Or is it just SP games you use for testing?

[Valerius]

I might be a noob (in MP), but I do not have to be educated by my enemy ;)
That just feels like not being taken seriously.

No offense intended; just being conversational. Anyway, it doesn't sound like I'm telling you much you don't already know. And even aside from that, I'm not telling you anything about about my strategy or my plans. As far as the gorgon goes, you still need to catch her in order to use any of this. And the gorgon is just one unit - I've got some other plans in mind that of course I haven't volunteered any info on. ;)

BTW: If I have a unit with multiple attacks, does it have to check multiple times against petrification.

Pretty sure each attack generates a check.

And your tests, do you do them in a special tool, or do you set up battles in an editor? Or is it just SP games you use for testing?

I'll just set up a game on small map with two or more nations (no AI nations as that would be annoying). Then I'll recruit or summon the units needed for each side and script the battle as normal. If I want to run the test several times (perhaps with small changes each time) I'll backup the game before the battle occurs so I don't have to set everything up again. Here's a link to the debug mod (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=36453), though I haven't actually used it. Looks like it might be a few versions old so spells added since then would still need to be set to 0.

[Samhain]

I'm packing for my vacation now. So, I suppose it is also time to request that the hosting interval be changed to 48 hours at least until I get back on the 13th.

As my turns don't take very long right now, it is mostly just a matter of internet access which may be as easy as using my 3G bridge or as cumbersome as heading into town to use the Wifi connection at the library. In any case, 48 hours should be doable.

If for some reason I stale once. Don't worry yet. Help should be on the way. I have a friend lined up ready to step in for me if for some reason I can't connect to the internet at all. If I stale twice, that likely means I can't get in contact with him either and will likely not get a turn in before the 14th.

[Valerius]

We've actually been on 48 hour hosting for the past 10 turns but it hasn't been noticeable since we've still kept up a 24 hour pace. :)

If your friend isn't on the forums please send me their email address. If you want, I can keep an eye on the server and if I don't see your turn I'll assume you don't have Internet access and switch it to their email. However, if they don't submit a turn how would you like to proceed? We can pause the game or slow it down so you only have a couple of stales or look for a short term sub.

Enjoy your vacation!

[ghoul31]

Well that gorgon seems a little bit overpowered.

Now I see why you want max level 6 research. So nobodoy can have any SC's, (except you with you invincible gorgon that killes 50 units every round

[Olm]

Wow, great battle. But I wonder how that would have ended with 20 mages casting Mind Burn. MR 17 is not that much. And just a hint to Arco: Antimagic (MR +4 to all allies) should drastically reduce your losses due to petrification.

[Louist]

I caught that gorgon in action as well. All I can say is: Wow.

[Olm]

But as I just have seen in the Hall of Fame, the Prince of Death just went to hell. How did that happen?

[ghoul31]

Wow, great battle. But I wonder how that would have ended with 20 mages casting Mind Burn. MR 17 is not that much. And just a hint to Arco: Antimagic (MR +4 to all allies) should drastically reduce your losses due to petrification.

Yea its my fault for not giving them mage support. But I don't understand why he was immune to trample.

[Valerius]

Ghoul, it's kind of disappointing you think I setup games to favor myself but I'll mention a few things. First off, I was originally going to play Eriu but when Samhain expressed an interest in them I switched to Pan, since I was having fun with them in Celebrities. Second, if I create games to favor myself I'm quite a failure at it since I've never won one of my modified rules games. Lastly, Arco (and Eriu) are the two nations in this game best equipped to kill the gorgon. As Olm mentioned, I attacked that force because it was a large amount of low to average MR units with no mage support. The exact same techniques you used against Ulm's PoD would have worked against the gorgon - perhaps even more effective since sometime soon those mind burns will turn to soul slays.

Having said that, I'm inclined to agree with you that she's OP. My previous times playing Pan I went with an oracle for a scales strategy. I thought I'd try something different and thought she would also be a useful deterrent against a rush. But like I said, I think she's too much for these settings and that makes it not fun. So I'm going to assign her to a non-combat role, where I can actually also find good use for her. I didn't really put too much thought into her, other than as a rush deterrent, so this isn't a huge sacrifice. Most of my planning was based on strategies for my other units and that is unaffected.

[Olm]

It was almost noon. Wulfhere, the Lord Warden, was late. He just hated to wait, and rather let his opponents do so. He was late, but not too late. Admittedly he had the shortest distance to travel, as the Arena is located in his homeprovince of Livenmark. On the way to the entrance he thought about the things to come. He was chosen by the Mistress to fight for his nation in the death match competition. A great honor, sure, but he could not be proud about it. The war against Pangaea went not so well, he heard. And not one item of power could be spared to raise his chances in the competition. So he went with the usual gear of his caste. What enemies would he meat? Black Knights of Ulm, armored to the teeth, and perhaps with a magic weapon? Or one of the Chariots of Arcoscephale, that could just trample you in the dust. Or perhaps some mages? He did not fear, but he did not give himself a great chance of survival either. Death comes to everyone, and his death would probably come soon.
Wulfhere entered the arena just in time, and met a surprise. He expected lots of visitors to watch the fights and he expected to see the champions doing some final training. But nothing of that could be seen. The Arena was almost empty. There was only one person present. A grizzled old veteran stood in the midst of the fighting pit, wearing an old, battered armor, a black helmet and leaning on a strange looking trident. His face looked somewhat sad, but the look brightened just a little bit as he saw Wulfhere.
"So one came at last!" he greated. "My name is Hector, and I have been in possession of the Champion's Trident for almost 30 years. Now I thought it would be a good idea to pass it along to younger folks. But as it looks, I am almost the only one who thinks this a good idea." He forces a thin smile and looks around. "Well, the time is up, and you are the only challenger. So what are we to do?"
Wulfhere could not believe it. All the other nations did not send anyone? Nobody took the challenge? Perhaps the war went even worse for the other nations? So he would live the day!
"Well as you came all the way from....?" Hector asked. "Ah, just a ten minutes march from here, across the street and than into merchants lane and....." "Yes well, I don't want to know that exactly." Hector interrupted "At least you took the time to come. So we can as well do some sparring. I might be old, but I still have some tricks I could show you!"
And this they did. The two trained the whole day, and man did Hector know some tricks. When the sone set in the east, Wulfhere was bruised and beaten all over his body. But he really really learned a lot.
"You did well, young lad" Hector said. "Now you should belong to the best fighters in the world. And now you really deserve this!" With those words he handed over the Champion's Trident, took one last look, turned around and left the darkening arena without looking back once more.
Wulfhere stood there for a long time, looking at the trident, touching, feeling, caressing it. He thought of what might come, and how he and his new weapon would serve the Mistress. And he thought about the other nations, that missed an opportunity. The arena already lay in utter darkness when he finally left and directed his strides home. Great deeds were awaiting.

[Valerius]

Yea its my fault for not giving them mage support. But I don't understand why he was immune to trample.

She's size 4 so the chariots couldn't trample her. She's also got awe so between that and their low MR killing them quickly the elephants didn't get many hits on her (not enough to pop mistform).

[Valerius]

It was almost noon. Wulfhere, the Lord Warden, was late...



Great post, thanks! That was funny and really nicely written. :)

[Olm]

So I'm going to assign her to a non-combat role, where I can actually also find good use for her.

So you say I squeezed my brain into coming up with a counter strategy for the Gorgon for nothing? All my preparations are void? She never will step into one of my devious traps?

I don't like this. I would rather have you use her to the best of her abilities. And when she crushes me, at least I learned something.

[Olm]

It was almost noon. Wulfhere, the Lord Warden, was late...



Great post, thanks! That was funny and really nicely written. :)

Thanks. English is not my mother language, so it's not that polished. But when I realized I was the only one to compete in the death match, this story came to my mind and I wanted to share it.
The DM was quite beneficial for me. Wulfhere went from noob right into the HoF. And the trident is not so bad. Probably perfect to stick it into a Gorgon :)

[Valerius]

So you say I squeezed my brain into coming up with a counter strategy for the Gorgon for nothing? All my preparations are void? She never will step into one of my devious traps?

I don't like this. I would rather have you use her to the best of her abilities. And when she crushes me, at least I learned something.

The thing is, I *really * dislike OP things so the thought that I might be using one is painful. ;) Not really sure what to do here. Like I said, I don't really find her very fun to use so I don't care either way about removing or not removing her from combat. It's up to you guys. I can remove her, remove her until there's more time to develop counters, or continue using her and let that factor into everyone's assessment of my threat level.

Thanks. English is not my mother language, so it's not that polished. But when I realized I was the only one to compete in the death match, this story came to my mind and I wanted to share it.
The DM was quite beneficial for me. Wulfhere went from noob right into the HoF. And the trident is not so bad. Probably perfect to stick it into a Gorgon :)

It's really good and even more impressive since English isn't your native language. Hope you are inspired to write more. :)

Btw, post-CBM 1.6 the trident becomes a helmet and gains some nice bonuses so it's really worth getting since it leaves your hand slots free for other weapons. I used CBM 1.6 for this game because I'm most familiar with it.

[Louist]

But as I just have seen in the Hall of Fame, the Prince of Death just went to hell. How did that happen?

Arco resumed his attack on me, so I sent my Prince to continue his harassment and liberation of provinces. Unfortunately for him, Pan's Gorgon routed a number of units, most notably Arco's Son of Titan into the province I was attack. His hero sword made rather short work of our poor Prince, dealing 45 damage a blow.

[ghoul31]

But as I just have seen in the Hall of Fame, the Prince of Death just went to hell. How did that happen?

Arco resumed his attack on me, so I sent my Prince to continue his harassment and liberation of provinces. Unfortunately for him, Pan's Gorgon routed a number of units, most notably Arco's Son of Titan into the province I was attack. His hero sword made rather short work of our poor Prince, dealing 45 damage a blow.


I took A water province with 0 income. oh no. I think thats a good reason to join forces with pangea and let him win the game. LOL

[Olm]

I took A water province with 0 income. oh no. I think thats a good reason to join forces with pangea and let him win the game. LOL

???
We have dead seas, so all water provinces have income 0.

[Louist]

That water province was still a sovereign state of Ulm :)

[Samhain]

Well, my little 3G doohickey is not small-town of Northern Michigan compatible. So, I am calling in my sub, buzzsaw. Have fun, everyone.

[Valerius]

Welcome to the game buzzsaw! I've changed Eriu to your email address and you should be receiving your first turn shortly. If for some reason it doesn't arrive you can go to the llamaserver and request a turn resend.

[Olm]

@arco
If you want to coordinate actions, send me a Personal Message.

[Valerius]

Pangaea discovered several groups of troublemakers sneaking around its territory this month. Unfortunately these were not the "artists" that have plagued Ulm (and that we know are sneaking around in our territory as well) but heavily armed bandits that slaughtered the provincial defense. These thugs will undoubtedly sneak away to avoid retaliation but Pangaea vows they will be uncovered again - and next time they will face the might of the Pangaean military, not just untrained militia.

[Olm]

Pangaea discovered several groups of troublemakers sneaking around its territory this month.

Those were no troublemakers and gave no reason to be attacked.


Unfortunately these were not the "artists" that have plagued Ulm (and that we know are sneaking around in our territory as well) but heavily armed bandits that slaughtered the provincial defense.

They were suddenly attacked by horrific, winged beasts.
So what should they do, but defend themselves?
Fortunately those winged creatures looked more horrific than they turned out to be in battle. They died rather easily when properly treated with greatswords.


These thugs will undoubtedly sneak away to avoid retaliation but Pangaea vows they will be uncovered again - and next time they will face the might of the Pangaean military, not just untrained militia.


Perhaps Pangaean province defence should not look too thoroughly, otherwise Pangaea could end up much shorter on provinces than before.

[buzzsaw]

Welcome to the game buzzsaw! I've changed Eriu to your email address and you should be receiving your first turn shortly. If for some reason it doesn't arrive you can go to the llamaserver and request a turn resend.

Thanks!

Got the turn file, but had to do some major updating to my Dom3 game files. I hadn`t played in awhile so I was way out of date. :doh:

[Olm]

Thanks!

Got the turn file, but had to do some major updating to my Dom3 game files. I hadn`t played in awhile so I was way out of date. :doh:

Welcome!
Be sure to use the CBM version after the latest patch (Link can be found in this thread.)

And I don't know how much Samhain told you, but Pangaea are the evil ones.

Have fun!

[buzzsaw]

Pangaea can`t be evil, they are such a charming people.

[Valerius]

Be sure to use the CBM version after the latest patch (Link can be found in this thread.)

Yes, you'll want to download llamabeast's fixed versions of CBM (link (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=47550)). The mod we are using for this game (attached to the first post) includes these fixes as well.


And I don't know how much Samhain told you, but Pangaea are the evil ones.

Evil? This saddens us. We try to rid the world of the mind hunt menace and the thanks we get is constant attacks from the scheming nation of Man.

Speaking of threats, please note that Man has built a fort in almost all of his provinces. What kind of warlike nation does something like that?


Pangaea can`t be evil, they are such a charming people.

Ha! So Man, you see the ancient friendship between Pangaea and Eriu is not susceptible to your treachery.


BREAKING NEWS: Apparently the not so ancient friendship between Ulm and Pangaea is however susceptible to Man's treachery as Ulm has now given notice that they will attack in three month's time. So be it. The people of the forest will stand together against the "civilized" nations of men!

[Valerius]

Buzzsaw, please enable messaging on your account (unfortunately it's off by default). As you might imagine, I'm interested in talking to the only nation that isn't at war with me. ;)

[Olm]

Speaking of threats, please note that Man has built a fort in almost all of his provinces. What kind of warlike nation does something like that?


So Pangaea fears our mighty trampling fortresses!

We ask: Who is the warmonger? He who invests his income into walls to build refuge for his people, to protect his population from the constant threat of invading armies, or he who invests in an ever growing military force?

And if We look at the poor nation of Arcoscephale right now we would rather build two castles per province.


Pangaea can`t be evil, they are such a charming people.

Especially the Gorgon is very "charming" indeed. Hasn't she paid you a visit yet? Well I guess it will happen sometime.


Ha! So Man, you see the ancient friendship between Pangaea and Eriu is not susceptible to your treachery.


Well everyone chooses his friends by himself. If this friend turns out to be a petrifying poisonous gorgon We are not the one to criticize the choice. We will only marvel at the beautiful statues decorating Eriu landscapes, when We finally liberate his provinces



BREAKING NEWS: Apparently the not so ancient friendship between Ulm and Pangaea is however susceptible to Man's treachery as Ulm has now given notice that they will attack in three month's time. So be it. The people of the forest will stand together against the "civilized" nations of men!

This is good news for all peoples who want to be free from Pangaean suppression. Stand fast, Arcoscephale, the free peoples will stand together and rid the world from the horrific abomination the gorgon is.

[buzzsaw]

PMs enabled for those who want to bo.....I mean..... work with Eriu.

All patches are up to date, thanks for the heads up.

I`m not so great with the phrases/words you all use and use well.
So it comes down to me speaking in what I know best...buzzenesse.



We isn`t afraid of no stinkin` Gorghuns.In sureness, we gonna have orselfes a gorghunshomrg

Okay maybe a little too radical.I think that Samhain will never let me sub again after I drop the IQ of his people by 40. :D

[Valerius]

We isn`t afraid of no stinkin` Gorghuns.In sureness, we gonna have orselfes a gorghunshomrg

Okay maybe a little too radical.I think that Samhain will never let me sub again after I drop the IQ of his people by 40. :D

Hmm, Eriu seems to have transformed into Warhammer Ogres. Well, no matter, we in Pangaea aren't a very sophisticated bunch ourselves. :)


And we see the bards of Man have been spinning tales again. Time to set the record straight.

We ask: Who is the warmonger? He who invests his income into walls to build refuge for his people, to protect his population from the constant threat of invading armies, or he who invests in an ever growing military force?

And if We look at the poor nation of Arcoscephale right now we would rather build two castles per province.

We would suggest the warmonger is he who continuously attacks Pangaea despite never having once been attacked. And as we previously explained, our war against Arco is for the benefit of the world. Every nation will rest easier knowing that they won't face risk free mind hunts. And of course we first got involved in that war to protect our friend Eriu.

Especially the Gorgon is very "charming" indeed. Hasn't she paid you a visit yet? Well I guess it will happen sometime.

Well everyone chooses his friends by himself. If this friend turns out to be a petrifying poisonous gorgon We are not the one to criticize the choice. We will only marvel at the beautiful statues decorating Eriu landscapes, when We finally liberate his provinces

Now this is really going too far. Man knows full well that the gorgon was suffering from an illness called "overpoweredness" and that she has retired to the country. She spends her days reading [researching], talking walks [site searching], and engaging in arts & crafts [forging]. She will of course defend herself if Man's thugs break into her house [the fort she's in] but, as I'm sure Man knows, she is not engaging in offensive action.

Furthermore, even if she were engaged in offensive action she would not attack the noble nation of Eriu. And even if she were possessed by insanity and did so, Eriu is quite capable of causing her to have a bad day.

[Valerius]

Well, that was one battle where I was really glad I had berserking troops. Even so, I think if Arco's mages had had one more turn to launch their spells that might have gone the other way.

[ghoul31]

Thanks for an extremely unfun game where I was ganked 2 or 3 on one the whole game.

Valerius, I will be sure to try to gank you 3 on one in a future game.

[Olm]

Well, that was one battle where I was really glad I had berserking troops. Even so, I think if Arco's mages had had one more turn to launch their spells that might have gone the other way.

Well it would have made only a minor difference. It was only one of your armies, while it was virtually all Arco had left. So Arco is down for good, or will be in one or two turns. Much faster than I had wished for.
Btw, I don't really get why the revelers are so effective. I made the same experience, but just from the stats I had expected them to do worse.

So you really retired the gorgon. Well it's your choice, but for me, you can use it in whichever way you want. I'll try to ward against her in whichever way I can. My Wardens and Knights of Avalon have rather high MR, so I guess they would survive long enough to do some damage.

[Olm]

Thanks for an extremely unfun game where I was ganked 2 or 3 on one the whole game.


It's sad you had no fun in this game.
I do not know what went on to let you face overwhelming odds, but you sure did nothing to improve your situation. You did never answer to diplomatic contacts. I made several proposals to join forces. I could have aided you with money, gems, and even items (Your Son of titans would have looked much different in the last battle with a charcoal shield, a firebrand, a pendant of luck, a blacksteel fullplate and an amulet of resiliance for example). Perhaps we could even have coordinated military operations to cut his western access to you.
But you never ever gave a useful answer. All you did here in the forum was complain and weep. So how do you expect anyone could have helped you?


Valerius, I will be sure to try to gank you 3 on one in a future game.

This is just ridiculous!

[Valerius]

Well it would have made only a minor difference. It was only one of your armies, while it was virtually all Arco had left. So Arco is down for good, or will be in one or two turns. Much faster than I had wished for.

Last turn I broke through Arco's walls and Ulm also ended his NAP with me so I decided to take a risk and storm Arco's cap without checking to see what's inside. Of course since he tried to break the siege the battle would have taken place regardless of whether I tried storming the fort or not.

Btw, I don't really get why the revelers are so effective. I made the same experience, but just from the stats I had expected them to do worse.

Revelers are my favorite Pangaean troop. Just like centaurs, they get two attacks per round but since they are size 2 you can fit three per square instead of two, for a total of 6 attacks per square as opposed to the centaurs 4. And those attacks can be fairly hard hitting. Base strength of 12, buff them with strength of giants for another 4, and when they go berserk add another 3. While their protection is low, they have decent HP so they've got a good chance of surviving the first hit and then going berserk.

Given the size of your raiding parties I figured I'd outnumber you about 3 to 1 and that numbers would win the day. However they aren't ideal for every situation. Your longbowmen will shred them and in that situation the centaurs are a better choice: slightly better armor, a third more HP, and - most importantly - a shield.

In the battle against Arco I think my curse of stones castings affected most of this tramplers. The harpies, maenads and swarm castings were just to build up a few rounds fatigue on them before they closed with my main force of revelers. Getting Pathos with curse of stones was an added bonus and very useful as he could have been a real problem.

So you really retired the gorgon. Well it's your choice, but for me, you can use it in whichever way you want. I'll try to ward against her in whichever way I can. My Wardens and Knights of Avalon have rather high MR, so I guess they would survive long enough to do some damage.

Yes, I really think she's OP for this game. I wasn't really having fun with her anyway. The only regret I have about it is that I was counting on my pretender to use their air magic to shut down opposing archers. Wish I'd decided on the phoenix that I was also considering. :) Anyway, this will be a challenge to figure out another way to deal with those longbowmen.

And while I think she could beat them if she had time to buff, I did have some concern about the Knights of Avalon. They have a charge attack but the scariest thing is their magic attack which could pop her mistform. Another thing that could have been a problem is thugged Lord Wardens.

[Louist]

I haven't had any replies to my post looking for subs. I'm going to post within each of my games, as perhaps some of you would like to babysit my nation in my other games, and perhaps someone there would come baby-sit for this one.

I've got three games I need subs for, starting a week from now (evening of the 19th would be ideal), and lasting until the 27th, when I return from camping.

There's DawnoftheMorning. This one is the most involved, and the one I most need a sub for! Playing as EA Caelum, no mods. Doing decently well, entering into late game.

There's LazyDays, I'm playing LA Arco. It's a small map, approaching mid game, I suppose. Really just need someone to babysit this one, as nothing complicated is going on. Small map, very slow pace, easy work. CBM 1.6

There's Nations. (This game!).

If anyone can take over one or more of these games a week from now, send me a PM.

Thanks!

[Valerius]

I can definitely sub for LazyDays as it sounds like it's just a matter of completing routine tasks. Just let me know what you'd like recruited, research goals to aim for, etc.

As far as DawnoftheMorning goes, I'm willing to sub there if you can't find someone else but it sounds like you're at war and I can't guarantee anything (never played any era of Caelum before).

[Olm]

I will also be on vacation till Thursday.
While I have access to a computer and my mails, my turns tend to get long. Perhaps we could stretch turns a little bit this week, when 2 of 4 are on vacation.

Ah, its early morning, I should read more thoroughly. Louist is away next week, so just forget it.

[buzzsaw]

Seems I have a big issue.
Dom3 is loaded on my work laptop and not on my home rig. Used to be but I recently upgraded. I have no access to do my turn file. Can we add a 48 hour delay to the this turn?

[Olm]

Can we add a 48 hour delay to the this turn?

No problem with me.

[Louist]

I can definitely sub for LazyDays as it sounds like it's just a matter of completing routine tasks. Just let me know what you'd like recruited, research goals to aim for, etc.

As far as DawnoftheMorning goes, I'm willing to sub there if you can't find someone else but it sounds like you're at war and I can't guarantee anything (never played any era of Caelum before).

That would be great. LazyDays is really just babysitting. A few forts to recruit mages from. Maybe adjust research. And that's about it

I'll let you know if I don't find a sub for Dawn.

[Valerius]

Can we add a 48 hour delay to the this turn?

Sure, 48 hours added to the clock.

I will also be on vacation till Thursday.
While I have access to a computer and my mails, my turns tend to get long. Perhaps we could stretch turns a little bit this week, when 2 of 4 are on vacation.

How about if I switch it to 72 hour hosting? We'll be on 72 hours as of turn 40 anyway. I doubt we'll need it since we've been moving at a good pace but it will help over the next few weeks with everyone's vacations. Sometimes increasing the hosting interval results in people submitting their turns later but that's not an issue with this group so I don't see a drawback to it.

That would be great. LazyDays is really just babysitting. A few forts to recruit mages from. Maybe adjust research. And that's about it

I'll let you know if I don't find a sub for Dawn.

Ok, sounds good. If you can't find a sub for this game then we'll have to put it on hold since you and I are at war beginning this turn.



As regards the game situation, things are getting very interesting. I've got large numbers of enemy troops along my eastern border and don't have enough resources to defend against them all so I'll have to pick my spots, hopefully win some battles, and then capitalize on that.

Olm, I'm annoyed at myself for missing the province connection between 86 and 97. I moved my forces to 89 thinking I'd block your army. Now you've got a good size force running around inside my borders. :mad:

[buzzsaw]

Thanks for the extension!

Samhain has new commitments (real life) so I will be offically taking over for him. Please hold your applause. :)

[Samhain]

I have no new commitments, actually. Real life is just normally hectic. I just thought if you were enjoying yourself I should offer the option to continue. It's an option I would want if I were subbing.

Thanks again for taking over for me. And, have fun everyone!

[Valerius]

Thanks for playing Samhain and welcome again to the game buzzsaw! :)

[buzzsaw]

I have no new commitments, actually. Real life is just normally hectic. I just thought if you were enjoying yourself I should offer the option to continue. It's an option I would want if I were subbing.

Thanks again for taking over for me. And, have fun everyone!

Well then, I stand corrected.
:p

[Valerius]

Well, that was a fine time to stale. My own fault, though: I knew I should postponed hosting earlier. :mad:

It appears my tenure as ruler of Arco may turn out to be quite short now that Ulm has it under siege without me having brought in any reinforcements to defend it. :p

Olm, I figured you were building a fort in 55. I considered attacking but didn't think I had the strength to win and a loss would have been disastrous. Not that you having a base to attack my territories is that good either...

Also, Louist has completed the current turn but will be on vacation for the next week. Elana, who is not on the forums, will be subbing (thank you!). So if you need to contact Ulm for diplomacy please send a message in-game.

[Olm]

Olm, I figured you were building a fort in 55. I considered attacking but didn't think I had the strength to win and a loss would have been disastrous. Not that you having a base to attack my territories is that good either...


It should have been ready one turn earlier, but I put all my troops on Patrol, including the fortress-builder :mad:
Now lets see how I can capitalize on that fort.
But I am still wondering what makes my people ill in that cursed province.

[Valerius]

But I am still wondering what makes my people ill in that cursed province.

Hmm, I don't recall any messages about disease but then again Pan doesn't care too much about that. I do, however, have a lot of cursed Pans but I assume that's Arco's doing.

Are you sure it's not old age hitting the crones since we just passed late winter when aging takes place? I hate dealing with old age and found that a pain the one time I played Man.

[Olm]

No, I have no crones there, only mothers. The old ladies did not join battle yet. And a couple of those mothers are diseased, as well as Lord wardens Castelans and Bards. Normal troops are affected too (only the Knights of Avalon seem to be Immune (or its unlikely on them due to the recuperation) I suspected a Bone Venom Charm, but even with heaviest patrolling I could find none.
Probably some disease spreading Site.

About aging: I don't see that much problem with it. I have growth 3, and I just live with it. Until now not one crone has died (but I recruited them late, I have to say) I have two or three now, that are diseased.
One way to work against age is buff their Nature. For a N4 Crone one
Thistle Mace is usually enough to make them young. For N3 I'd need Treelord Staff or Moonvine Bracelet+Thistle Mace. But thats a bit to costly for my liking. (Though viable for very rare and useful combinations like A4, E2 or W2)

[Valerius]

Those are good points regarding aging. Maybe it's just that I don't have the patience to deal with it. The only nation I regularly play that has to think about aging is MA Abysia and there I just factor forging a pair of boots of youth into the recruitment cost of a warlock.

[Olm]

40 Nature Gems for one fortress inside my borders. Thats rather expensive. And another large army that will probably never go anywhere again. We'll see if that was worth it.

[Valerius]

40 Nature Gems for one fortress inside my borders. Thats rather expensive. And another large army that will probably never go anywhere again. We'll see if that was worth it.

We'll see. :) I was just happy to take some offensive action. I was getting tired of constantly being on the defensive. Not sure what you mean by 40 gems, though. Faery Trod is 8 gems per casting. Not cheap, but I'm more worried about losing that army than about the gem cost to get them in position.

[Valerius]

I postponed hosting since we hadn't received a turn for Ulm. I also emailed Elana to see if she's run into any problems.

[Elanaew]

Hi All, Elana subbing for louist/ulm. What a wild game this is! Louist has given me directions about what he wants done. I have some flexibility, and some extra earth gems (smile). Maybe a new castle, who knows... let me know if you wish to discuss anything.....

============================
ULM NEWS

Palace announces temporary appointment of "Snuggles" as Ulm's new ( Temporary) Minister of Foreign Relations. No rumors appear to be circulating. One coachman lamented, "oh, yea, more o' the same, I be sure.'

Royal Steward of Castles is seeking a reliable and experienced castle re-decorator.

===============================

[Olm]

Not sure what you mean by 40 gems, though. Faery Trod is 8 gems per casting. Not cheap, but I'm more worried about losing that army than about the gem cost to get them in position.

Well, thats a CBM change. Vanilla price is 20 gems. For 16 gems total its O.K.

You put up quite a fight in Arcoscephale. I thought you had no chance, when I saw the lineup, but you nearly pulled it off! But I have to say I was happy to watch this carnage just as an observer. The losses were grave for both of you.

Now do I observe correctly, that your ancient ally Eriu has betrayed you and now lays siege to the castle of Griphons Spires. If thats so, I really have to think what consequences this has diplomatically.

[Valerius]

Hi All, Elana subbing for louist/ulm. What a wild game this is! Louist has given me directions about what he wants done.

Welcome, Elana! And quite a way to kick things off - that was some brutal evocation spam. The first time viewing a battle I like to just watch it and not click on various units and that was a fun one. I thought maybe, just maybe, my berserkers would pull it off (it's always nice if your side routs but your berserk troops keep fighting and end up winning the battle :)) but point blank magma eruption wiped out those hopes. If only your mages had been a bit more fatigued at the end...

The stale the previous turn cost me - not because I could have won the fight if I hadn't staled but because I could have gotten enough troops inside the fort to withstand a siege and thus avoid the fight (Olm is quite familiar with that strategy ;)). As it was, Ulm ended up besieging an almost empty fort and I was lucky the walls weren't breached the first turn. Although with the way things turned out maybe that would have been better as I wouldn't have had a chance to get forces in place to try to break Ulm's siege. As it is, I lost a lot of my best troops this past turn.

It looks like Arco is the place to be for action packed fights! We'll see if Ulm can break the curse of the place and hold on to it (in my time controlling it I only recruited one mystic since it took several turns to bring down the unrest caused the presence of my revelers and by my foolishly overtaxing while besieging Arco).

Btw Elana, I'm sure Louist mentioned the big change with this game regarding limiting magic to level 6 but, in case he didn't mention it, another change is that you can recruit some units from a conquered opponent's capitol. The big prize with Arco's cap is mystics (you can also recruit some of his troops). Not as big a deal to Ulm as to the other remaining nations since you have some astral magic already (that was obvious from the gifts from heaven castings) but still a nice bonus.


You put up quite a fight in Arcoscephale. I thought you had no chance, when I saw the lineup, but you nearly pulled it off! But I have to say I was happy to watch this carnage just as an observer. The losses were grave for both of you.

I felt confident about the combination of curse of stones and iron bane against Ulm's troops. Where I made a big mistake was forgetting that it isn't really about his troops but about the cheap mages. And for some reason I didn't think he had quite that many mages in that army - and, frustratingly, they all survived.


Now do I observe correctly, that your ancient ally Eriu has betrayed you and now lays siege to the castle of Griphons Spires. If thats so, I really have to think what consequences this has diplomatically.

No, that's not an attack. That fort and Arco's eastern provinces were always intended to go to Eriu. But you are right that my fate is in Eriu's hands. If he sides with me then we'll have a 2 vs 2 fight and there's still hope for Pan. If he sides against me then I'm history. If he keeps out of this round of wars I'm likely also history but there's still a small chance.

In any case, this is fun stuff. I really like mid game battle magic more than SCs or late game magic. :)

[Olm]

Now do I observe correctly, that your ancient ally Eriu has betrayed you and now lays siege to the castle of Griphons Spires. If thats so, I really have to think what consequences this has diplomatically.

No, that's not an attack. That fort and Arco's eastern provinces were always intended to go to Eriu. But you are right that my fate is in Eriu's hands. If he sides with me then we'll have a 2 vs 2 fight and there's still hope for Pan. If he sides against me then I'm history. If he keeps out of this round of wars I'm likely also history but there's still a small chance.



You are too honest for the game :)
Had you told me Eriu betrayed you, that would really have lessened my motivation.
Just another level of gameplay I discover for myself. And another reason why scouting and knowledge is key in this game.

[Olm]

By the way: I have been wondering for some time, why you keep employing Black Bone. What do you do with him?

[Valerius]

You are too honest for the game :)
Had you told me Eriu betrayed you, that would really have lessened my motivation.

I'm willing to sneak attack if I don't have a NAP with some and to dogpile someone (though I'll sometimes feel bad about that) but I can't get myself to flat out lie to someone in order to manipulate them (especially if it will result in an ally being attacked).

I'm curious, though, if Eriu did attack me would you be less motivated because you would feel it wasn't fair? I don't think you should let that trouble you. While it can be great fun to have an evenly matched fight it can also lead to a stalemate that takes both parties out of contention while other nations are winning easier victories. And of course the trick will be avoiding being the odd man out once the current round of fighting ends and the next dogpile begins. ;)


And another reason why scouting and knowledge is key in this game.

Yes, scouting is really important. One of the things I like about Pan is their great harpy scouts. The fact that you can quickly get them where needed isn't only good for scouting purposes but in case you need some decoys to absorb, say, mind hunts. And on that note, a harpy scout was felled by a mind hunt last month. Pangaea thought it had made the world safe from this foul magic by eliminating Arco but apparently some nations are still engaging in these dark practices. :mad:


By the way: I have been wondering for some time, why you keep employing Black Bone. What do you do with him?

Lol. He's cheap enough that I keep him around thinking I may want to use him, though I can't imagine for what. It's got to be the easiest merc job ever as he doesn't do anything. :)

[Valerius]

I've postponed hosting so that we can coordinate returning control of Ulm to Louist.

[Louist]

I'm back everyone. Elana seems to have left Ulm in better shape than she found it :)

I've had a quick look at the latest turn, but I wont be able to actually do anything with it until this afternoon.

[Valerius]

So, I went from having an army devastated by magma eruption to having one devasted by thunderstrike. Knew I shouldn't have tried to storm that fort but kept moving instead. :hurt:

It also kind of funny how the AI Arco is still alive. One water province, no army or gold, but still enough dominion to avoid being killed.

[Olm]

So, I went from having an army devastated by magma eruption to having one devasted by thunderstrike. Knew I shouldn't have tried to storm that fort but kept moving instead. :hurt:


I told you it was a bad idea to bring your troops into my backyard. No way they could live very long, or be really effective.
A small annoyance for me and a great cost for you.
I am much more satisfied with my raiders. Stealth really helps in raiding, and I guess I cause much more annoyance with those rather small groups, than you did with your large army.
Talking of stealth: I wonder where your glamorous friend is.I don't see you standing a chance against Ulm and Man without him for long.
And talking of annoyances: That castle in Giants Rest is really annoying. I know it must be a huge effort for you and it binds lots of troops, but still I would rather conquer the province.
Is there any spell that helps besieging, like Iron Walls for the besieged? I guess not...

Btw: Those diseases in Retha are caused by a plaguewater stream. Not so nice.

[Valerius]

I told you it was a bad idea to bring your troops into my backyard. No way they could live very long, or be really effective.
A small annoyance for me and a great cost for you.

I'm not yet ready to say it was a waste. It foolish of me to try storming that fort instead of moving on. But providing some kind of distraction strikes me as a good idea as any forces you use to deal with it are forces that aren't on the frontline (I assume you've finished researching).

I am much more satisfied with my raiders. Stealth really helps in raiding, and I guess I cause much more annoyance with those rather small groups, than you did with your large army.

I would have done the same thing but never had an opportunity to infiltrate forces as I was spread too thin. In any case, I think your troops are better raiders and you have good, cheap mages to back them up.

And talking of annoyances: That castle in Giants Rest is really annoying. I know it must be a huge effort for you and it binds lots of troops, but still I would rather conquer the province.
Is there any spell that helps besieging, like Iron Walls for the besieged? I guess not...

Well, without autosummoning maenads I can't create the kind of virtually unbreakable forts Pan otherwise could but between summoning them and buying harpies I can make things difficult.

As far as spells to aid sieges, Crumble would work in a normal game but that is a higher level spell that was modded out for this game. So aside from massing troops like you're doing, the best bet is siege bonus magic items or something like the draconians you summoned.

[Olm]

As far as spells to aid sieges, Crumble would work in a normal game but that is a higher level spell that was modded out for this game. So aside from massing troops like you're doing, the best bet is siege bonus magic items or something like the draconians you summoned.

Yes, I figured those would be a good idea.
Next you will see hordes of slingers rush in. Just saw that I can recruit them for resource 2, so with my huge income I can really mass them, to counter your meanads.
The cheap guys will decide the siege.

[Olm]

Could we postpone hosting for 24 hours? I am a bit on the way tomorrow and don't know if I have the time to finish a turn.
And shouldn't we be on a 72h schedule anyway?

[Valerius]

You're quite right. We've been moving at such a good pace I forgot to change it. Hosting interval is now 72 hours (which also extended the current turn by 24 hours).

[buzzsaw]

So, I went from having an army devastated by magma eruption to having one devasted by thunderstrike. Knew I shouldn't have tried to storm that fort but kept moving instead. :hurt:


I told you it was a bad idea to bring your troops into my backyard. No way they could live very long, or be really effective.
A small annoyance for me and a great cost for you.
I am much more satisfied with my raiders. Stealth really helps in raiding, and I guess I cause much more annoyance with those rather small groups, than you did with your large army.
Talking of stealth: I wonder where your glamorous friend is.I don't see you standing a chance against Ulm and Man without him for long.
And talking of annoyances: That castle in Giants Rest is really annoying. I know it must be a huge effort for you and it binds lots of troops, but still I would rather conquer the province.
Is there any spell that helps besieging, like Iron Walls for the besieged? I guess not...

Btw: Those diseases in Retha are caused by a plaguewater stream. Not so nice.

Glamorous help is on the way. :D You should have seen a hint of them by now.

[Louist]

I'm making the transition from college to university this month, and my schedule isn't nearly as open as it was. I'll probably be sending in turns much closer to the deadline than before, but I'll make sure not to miss any.

[Valerius]

I just realized I forgot to change the hosting interval to 72 hours when we hit turn 40. I've now made that change so that should help.

[Olm]

Wow, Eriu is fielding a really dangerous looking army.
Nice battle in Griphons Spire, so we have to take them into account after all.

Pan has taken to poisoning civilians (Man and Pangaean alike) instead of fighting it out. But this cowardly tactics will not bring them victory. We will hunt down those poison spreaders and come for the leaders behind those deeds afterwards.


Now I have some questions to game mechanics:
1. Flying units should not be able to enter water at all. How could Pan take a waterprovince with a Harpy?
2. What happens to a mercenary with twiceborn after he dies (e.g. from disease)?
3. What happens with mercenary troops if the leader dies from disease?
4. What happens with mercenary troops if the leader teleports away?

[Valerius]

Wow, Eriu is fielding a really dangerous looking army.
Nice battle in Griphons Spire, so we have to take them into account after all.

Yeah, that was a fun one to watch. The trend of all the exciting battles taking place in Arco's former territory continues to hold true.

Pan has taken to poisoning civilians (Man and Pangaean alike) instead of fighting it out. But this cowardly tactics will not bring them victory. We will hunt down those poison spreaders and come for the leaders behind those deeds afterwards.

Bah, Pangeans are made of hardier stock than Man. We recover just fine from a little illness.

It's funny that you had that illness causing site earlier in the game and suspected bane venom charms as that was one of the strategies I came up with when I switched from Eriu to Pan. Unfortunately, it doesn't work as well when I try to sneak them into your territories since patrollers discover them but I'm hoping it makes besieging my forts even more of a painful process. :p


1. Flying units should not be able to enter water at all. How could Pan take a waterprovince with a Harpy?

Just think of them as being like ducks. ;) But there is no restriction on flying units not being able to enter the water as long they have either the amphibian tag or a water breathing magic item.

2. What happens to a mercenary with twiceborn after he dies (e.g. from disease)?

Hmm, never thought about that before. I ran a test and it looks like twiceborn works as usual but he's still a merc so if you lose him to another nation they will then have the twiceborn wight mage.

3. What happens with mercenary troops if the leader dies from disease?
4. What happens with mercenary troops if the leader teleports away?

I know from a previous game where I teleported a merc mage without remembering that he had troops under his command that the troops get separated from him. It's annoying because you can't assign them to another commander so they are stuck in that province and can't even be scripted.

I assume the same thing happens if the merc leader dies while he is still under contract.

[Olm]

Just think of them as being like ducks. ;) But there is no restriction on flying units not being able to enter the water as long they have either the amphibian tag or a water breathing magic item.

Well, flying units cannot fly over waterprovinces, so I thought they cannot enter them. So with the right magic item they can enter and probably even fly over them.



2. What happens to a mercenary with twiceborn after he dies (e.g. from disease)?

Hmm, never thought about that before. I ran a test and it looks like twiceborn works as usual but he's still a merc so if you lose him to another nation they will then have the twiceborn wight mage.


Hm, had hoped to have a wight mage for myself then. But I would really be interested how he looks like in the merc list.

Btw. is there a way to get full control of a merc?
I am quite sure I had a game in SP where a merc commander was suddenly a member of my own forces. but I don't know if that was some intended effect, or a bug.

[buzzsaw]

Wow, Eriu is fielding a really dangerous looking army.
Nice battle in Griphons Spire, so we have to take them into account after all.


Thanks! After not playing for awhile, it was good to see a battle go the way you intended. Though I`m sure your raiding party attack directly behind the battle was no accident. :)

[Valerius]

Well, flying units cannot fly over waterprovinces, so I thought they cannot enter them. So with the right magic item they can enter and probably even fly over them.

As far as I know the only way to move over a water province is to have the sailing ability or forge a pocket ship. What you can do, if you are already in a water province and have the sailing ability, is sail over another water province onto the land.

Btw. is there a way to get full control of a merc?
I am quite sure I had a game in SP where a merc commander was suddenly a member of my own forces. but I don't know if that was some intended effect, or a bug.

I ran some tests and had no luck doing so. Had a merc cast transformation and charmed another one. In both cases they remained mercs. Enslave mind removed their commander status but they disappeared after the fight.

[Olm]

Ouch!
So slingers are good at sieging a castle but bad at storming it.
Especially if the opponent has earthquake and arrow fend.
But I wonder why my supporting cavalry came late to the battle. I expected them to move from friendly province to friendly province and thus take part in the battle. Or did they arrive in time but did not take part? Then there should be an order like "move and storm" as it is with "move and patrol".

[buzzsaw]

I`ve got a game question for you guys.
I had a small raiding party attack Ulm. Did okay and routed his army. As my guy was rushing up to get the last of the army, he routed and of course died since he had nowhere to go.

What the heck would cause that? I thought after a route, that was pretty much it, you won the battle. Can both armies route in the same battle?

[Valerius]

Ouch!
So slingers are good at sieging a castle but bad at storming it.
Especially if the opponent has earthquake and arrow fend.

Yes, that was almost an ideal situation for earthquake. I've always found the spell underwhelming and if your cavalry had already been part of the sieging force, and therefore expected to participate in the storming attempt, I would have just ceded that fort to you without a fight. As it was, the low to middling defense on the slingers and your mages was about as good a target as you can get for earthquake. Still, I only bought some time and killed some low value units and a few mages and in return lost two mages and their gear so I'm not sure if it was worth it. One of the problems with earthquake (as well as the far more effective rain of stones) is that when using human HP mages the fatigue will often result in them being killed by your own castings. I gave them pendants of luck to improve their chances (and hoped that their higher than human HP would also help) but still lost two of three (ethereal robes would have been ideal but there was no way I could get those forged - even the pendants are only thanks to my one Arco mystic).


But I wonder why my supporting cavalry came late to the battle. I expected them to move from friendly province to friendly province and thus take part in the battle. Or did they arrive in time but did not take part? Then there should be an order like "move and storm" as it is with "move and patrol".

That's correct; you can't move and storm in the same turn. I don't think it would be good for SCs especially to be able to participate in any storming attempt that was within flight range. This way the defender knows roughly what they're facing (aside from stealthy troops that only show up for the storming attempt) and can choose how much they want to spend to teleport in reinforcements. Of course the besieging army can count on them doing that and move on to another fort, causing the defender to have spent those gems to no purpose (all this assumes the province is undomed as otherwise your own dome will prevent reinforcements from arriving).


I`ve got a game question for you guys.
I had a small raiding party attack Ulm. Did okay and routed his army. As my guy was rushing up to get the last of the army, he routed and of course died since he had nowhere to go.

What the heck would cause that? I thought after a route, that was pretty much it, you won the battle. Can both armies route in the same battle?

Yes, both sides can rout and in that case having slow units can be useful as they may be the last ones on the field and thus win the battle. Berserking units are also helpful as once berserk they won't rout and can win the battle for you after your forces have routed. I'm guessing the turn limit probably ran out and caused an autorout. This is of course particularly dangerous if you don't have a province to retreat to. Actually, one of the ways to defeat glamoured thugs is to tie them up with something like skellie spam long enough to force an autorout. You can give yourself some protection by raiding two or more neighboring provinces, figuring you'll likely win enough battles to provide provinces to escape to.

[buzzsaw]

Ahhh, it was a very long turn, so that is probably what happened.

[Olm]

And Arco was again the place to be, except for trolls.
Those Glamorous guys are starting to make me nervous.

I just wondered, if there are some quiet places in our world. Backyard Ulm and Eriu perhaps.
Of Pans country I know that it has been ploughed through and drenched in blood from near to far.
My own provinces suffered disease after disease.
I fear we leave a quite desolate place to the God to be. And that with 3 nature loving nations....

[buzzsaw]

Truth be known, it was not a good time if you were a troll or undead. :)

[Valerius]

Sounds like I missed a good fight. :( I don't know what I was thinking not leaving a scout on Arco's cap.

However Olm, I'm not sure just how nervous you are given how my forts are beginning to fall at an alarming pace. ;) I of course wasn't going to say anything, but what you're doing now was exactly the approach to take to my piling troops into a handful of forts. Since I don't have enough troops to make all of them impervious to siege you can keep switching around to target the weak ones. Even if the walls aren't breached the first turn, I'll still have trouble getting reinforcements there.

[Olm]

Sounds like I missed a good fight. :( I don't know what I was thinking not leaving a scout on Arco's cap.

However Olm, I'm not sure just how nervous you are given how my forts are beginning to fall at an alarming pace. ;) I of course wasn't going to say anything, but what you're doing now was exactly the approach to take to my piling troops into a handful of forts. Since I don't have enough troops to make all of them impervious to siege you can keep switching around to target the weak ones. Even if the walls aren't breached the first turn, I'll still have trouble getting reinforcements there.

As you started to disease my large sieging party I panicked a little bit and retreated to rethink the situation.
My playstyle is rather defensive and the diseases (your charms and the stream in Retha) discouraged me. I still don't like to leave that large force behind me, but I see no other way to achieve something.
And remember, its essentially my first MP game, so perhaps I need a little bit longer to figure things out.

Your Bane Venom Charms are very effective, they diseased lots and lots of my mages. I would even go as far as to call them overpowered for the price especially thinking what a strong death nation can do with them. But on the other hand my bards are probably equally effective, if I look at your income. And the everywhere-build wardens also give you hell. MA Man is described as a rather weak nation in the tactics guides. I cannot agree with that.

[Olm]

A knock at my chamber door. "Come" I demand. The hinges squeak and a daughter in white enters the room. "I's time, mother." "I come."
Without further preparations I rise from my desk and follow the girl. It is two hours before dawn, but I expected the call and prepared everything. All that is necessary is on me. I wrote my last will shortly after the disease got me and it lies on my desk. Since midnight I have just been waiting and meditating. And my mind is not made up yet. Since the meeting at noon yesterday it revolves around the task before us. It is daunting, frightening, but then it is something to do.

For months our lot of diseased crones where just fading away, with nothing to do. It was depressing. But then, yesterday, we were told to gather in the hall, and there the Mistress, may she live and rule forever, spoke to us in a vision. She had a task that needed doing. A difficult task. A very dangerous task. And thats why we were chosen. We are doomed, sure to die in a few month. But we are still mighty mages. So the Mistress told us of the mightiest champion of the enemy. His prophet. A Pan called Ares. A very strong mage of earth and nature. Equipped with mighty gear he is almost impregnable. Even a large force with lots of Knights of Avalon could only win a battle against him, but not kill him. Thats now our task, to kill this mighty warrior.

We are seven, all diseased to the death. But as I see the others I know, they are as resolved as I am. We nod to each other, everyone knows what to do. Then everyone takes her three air gems and invokes the spell. And all seven of us are taken away by strong winds to a distant province where the battle awaits.

[Olm]

We arrive and are greeted by the scout party in this province. A mother and five bards, so we are twelve now. The bards lead us to the field camp of the Pan. We take positions and start the attack. The camp has magical defenses, so we cannot surprise him. We advance and he starts his spells, strengtheneing himself for the fight. The Mistress figured out a weakness against poison, so the plan is to attack him him with poison and sleep clouds while phantasms keep him from just chopping us up. But he is not alone, a small force accompanies him. Not much, but we are defenseless, so most of us concentrate on them instead of Ares. They go down easily, but where is Ares? I cannot see him. A scream! I turn around, and there he is, just in the middle of our formation. And at his feet lies Gunhild, or whats left of her. He has winged shoes. We need time! Sprites, I call on them without thinking. The others react instinctively too. In seconds the Pan is covered in vines surrounded by Dragonflies and my sprites. Its effective. He is immobilized, cannot harm us. So we blast away with all we have. Most of us use Streams of Life, but I see other spells too.

Its just impossible how many spells he just shrugs off. Spell after Spell, and he doesn't care. And then its over. just so. The last Stream of Life just got through somehow and the mighty Ares, hero of countless battles is dead. We did it.
What do I feel? Relief mixes with exhaustion. And sure there is some pride. But one thought dominates: I lived the day, but it was probably my last great deed. I will not die today. But for sure tomorrow, or the day after tomorrow, or another day in near future. We were victorious against one of the mightiest heroes of the world. But there is no victory, against the disease. And the days will become darker and darker. Perhaps today Gunhild was the luckiest of us seven.

[Olm]

Could we postpone the next turn to Tuesday? I will be on short vacation until Monday. I will get the current turn in, but I will probably not have the time to do the next one before Monday evening.

[buzzsaw]

Nicely written! :):):)

[Valerius]

Thanks for the in character post, Olm! Nicely done! :) And (unfortunately) very nicely done killing Pan's greatest hero. That was the only unit I had the could stand up to your combined forces and Pangaea is in mourning at his loss.

You almost took the fort in 64 as well. Unfortunately I lost some quality troops (as well as a lot of chaff) and with your raiding and my decreasing number of provinces putting me in the red, there won't be any replacements, and all my successful defense did was postpone things a bit.


Could we postpone the next turn to Tuesday? I will be on short vacation until Monday. I will get the current turn in, but I will probably not have the time to do the next one before Monday evening.

Yes, of course. Enjoy your vacation! :)


Your Bane Venom Charms are very effective, they diseased lots and lots of my mages. I would even go as far as to call them overpowered for the price especially thinking what a strong death nation can do with them.

As far as the bane venom charms go, they are a particularly good match for Pan since I can use them without fear of crippling my own mages. This is even more so the case in this game with the lack of indie mages. In a normal game if I had any half way decent indie mages I would hesitate to use a bane venom charm when under siege. Here the only non-national mages I'm likely to have (barring taking - and keeping - an enemy cap) are undead who also won't be bothered by being diseased.


MA Man is described as a rather weak nation in the tactics guides. I cannot agree with that.

Keep in mind that given all the special circumstances of this game it's hard to draw lessons that would apply to a normal game. Where Man really suffers is in the late game and of course that's not a factor here. It's also worth noting that most of those guides were likely written before CBM started buffing Man.

One thing about these settings was that they were intended to really emphasize national strengths - and weaknesses. In a normal game there's a decent chance that you'll be able to break into new paths of magic with indie mages and their complete elimination has a big effect on how things play.

Btw, if you like this version of Man you'll definitely want to check out the 1.92 version as it has everything you're using plus additional boosts.

[Olm]

Thanks for the in character post, Olm! Nicely done! :) And (unfortunately) very nicely done killing Pan's greatest hero. That was the only unit I had the could stand up to your combined forces and Pangaea is in mourning at his loss.


Well, it did not work as intended. I wanted to poison him to death.
But my mages reverted to streams of live.
What I found interesting is, that it seems to me that every SC, even the mightiest, can be stopped by a low level spell like entangling vines. He needs every turn to break free. So I can perhaps not kill an SC, but there is a way to neutralize him. Is that correct?


You almost took the fort in 64 as well. Unfortunately I lost some quality troops (as well as a lot of chaff) and with your raiding and my decreasing number of provinces putting me in the red, there won't be any replacements, and all my successful defense did was postpone things a bit.


That problem remains for you.
The fort is now taken, and your home province under siege.
Your income has dropped to neglegible levels. I wonder how you will try to turn the tide.



Your Bane Venom Charms are very effective, they diseased lots and lots of my mages. I would even go as far as to call them overpowered for the price especially thinking what a strong death nation can do with them.

As far as the bane venom charms go, they are a particularly good match for Pan since I can use them without fear of crippling my own mages. This is even more so the case in this game with the lack of indie mages. In a normal game if I had any half way decent indie mages I would hesitate to use a bane venom charm when under siege. Here the only non-national mages I'm likely to have (barring taking - and keeping - an enemy cap) are undead who also won't be bothered by being diseased.


But with an undead nation like Ermor, they must be killer.


Btw, if you like this version of Man you'll definitely want to check out the 1.92 version as it has everything you're using plus additional boosts.

Yes, I started a game with Man under CBM 1.92. (The idea with always taking Man is to really get to know one nation, before trying others).
Definitely cool stuff added. I always missed a commander for my Knights of Avalon, and now its there. The downside is, that the hero Rhianna is not so special anymore. In our game she is very special to me, because she uses the full potential af the KoA's in terms of speed on the tactics map. Addition of healing to the daughters is cool I think. And the added spells are great and very thematic.
But I guess I will miss those slingers. really got to respect them as siege force.

[Valerius]

Well, it did not work as intended. I wanted to poison him to death.
But my mages reverted to streams of live.


It may not have been what you had in mind but it worked well enough. Sometimes the AI can drive you crazy but there it did a good job with tangle vines to pin down my prophet and then stream of life to go for the kill.

What I found interesting is, that it seems to me that every SC, even the mightiest, can be stopped by a low level spell like entangling vines. He needs every turn to break free. So I can perhaps not kill an SC, but there is a way to neutralize him. Is that correct?

Yes, tangle vines works great. And it appears that as long as the arrow hits the square the target is in the effect is automatic (no parry attempt and air shield doesn't help). It won't get you the kill but will help your troops kill the SC. Or, as happened here, protect your mages while they take shots.

That problem remains for you.
The fort is now taken, and your home province under siege.
Your income has dropped to neglegible levels. I wonder how you will try to turn the tide.

I think my current plans have less to do with turning the tide than with making a last stand. ;)

[Olm]

I've got a game mechanics question regarding another game:

I had troops in Province A, the enemy had troops in province B.
Now I moved all my troops to B.
It seems he moved his troops to A.

I expected a clash of all troops in either A or B, depending on who is faster.

But the result was a battle in A AND B with my troops being split.

My understanding was that troops from one province move together. Is that wrong, or did something else happen, which I did not take into account?

[Valerius]

Seems to me a battle likely occurred in the magic phase in province A and after you won that your surviving forces fought the battle in B. Or is there something that caused some of your troops to be left behind (forgot to issue movement orders or commander(s) assassinated resulting in troops being left behind)?

[Olm]

Seems to me a battle likely occurred in the magic phase in province A and after you won that your surviving forces fought the battle in B. Or is there something that caused some of your troops to be left behind (forgot to issue movement orders or commander(s) assassinated resulting in troops being left behind)?

No magic movement. And even with left behind troops the two armies shouldn't be able to pass each other, right?
I will have to investigate further.

[buzzsaw]

All I can say is nice job Ulm! :up:
You pretty much turned the tables on me. I can`t say I have seen that many master smiths before, and I paid for it. I was not expecting that to say the least.

I think I got a little too lax with the way that army had been rolling along.

[Valerius]

All I can say is nice job Ulm! :up:
You pretty much turned the tables on me. I can`t say I have seen that many master smiths before, and I paid for it. I was not expecting that to say the least.

Magma eruption spam, I assume? That just killed my southern army.


No magic movement. And even with left behind troops the two armies shouldn't be able to pass each other, right?
I will have to investigate further.

There was some discussion about this a few years ago, I think. Some people said they'd never seen two armies pass each other, others did. I've never had it happen in MP but I think it has happened to me in SP. Couldn't prove it without a player to confirm the orders they gave but it seemed to me there were a few instances where the AI's forces couldn't have come from any other province and yet our armies passed each other by.

[Louist]

Sorry I've been out of the loop folks. I've been knocked out with a nasty flu for the last week, which coincided rather painfully with midterms, so when I wasn't writing an exam I was pretty much asleep or trying to keep my stomach under control!

I'll take some time tomorrow to read through the thread and catch up on the discussion.

With that said: Is it possible to get a 24 hour extension on this turn? I know it's late to ask, and I apologize for that, but I've been staring at my troops for 2 hours now and I still can't really focus on the game. Today's the first day I've really been out of bed in a while, and it's taken a lot more out of me than I expected. I need to call it a night.

If it's not, than no worries.

[Valerius]

No problem; hosting postponed 24 hours. If you need more time just let me know - no need to force yourself to complete turns if you're not feeling up to it.

[buzzsaw]

Here`s hoping you feel better. Nasty flu sucks big time, especially during mid terms. :(

[Louist]

Alright! I feel rather caught up.

Thanks for the extension. I'm feeling more like my normal self, but I'm still exhausted. Getting up at 6 for class certainly doesn't help.

I'm about to get back to figuring out what to do this turn, but first some commentary:

I'm having a devil of a time countering these raids from buzz. Glamour is a downright pain to counter, and my slow, expensive, but still readily expendable troops just haven't had the right stuff when it comes to battles.

I'm really kicking myself for going with an SC for my pretender. As much as he gave me an early edge, he was useless the instant he died to Arco's Son of Titan. And the lack of diversity is compounding my problems.

I'm scrambling to meke out whatever edge I can, but I really don't have the experience (this is my... 6th(?) MP match, if you count the three first ones where I was taken out almost instantly. The others are still currently running.) to instinctively know what to do next.

Pan's done a wonderful job spreading disease. My sieging army took quite the hit, and what's left is slowly withering away!


All I can say is nice job Ulm! :up:
You pretty much turned the tables on me. I can`t say I have seen that many master smiths before, and I paid for it. I was not expecting that to say the least.

I think I got a little too lax with the way that army had been rolling along.

I haven't even seen that battle yet. The turn staled while I was incapacitated, and I haven't had the time yet to go back and load it up. That said, the meager remnants of that army leaves me wondering how much damage I actually did to you.

[buzzsaw]

Since I`m awake thanks to the nice drunk couple arguing in the hotel room next to me.

You`ll have to go back to watch it. Granted, I did a number on your non-mage units, but your mages really hurt my mages. It was a great battle to watch.

Wow, husband finally left after 40 minutes of threatening to leave. 5 minues later, the angry drunk wife throws her 13 year old daughter out of the room and says go stay with your father. Oh what fun. Sigh.

[Louist]

Alright, turn sent, and I've seen that big battle from the previous turn... quite lengthy!

While I lost almost no commanders during the battle, the 20 who routed were all lost. Sigh.

I did learn some useful things, however! First, fire resistance (even 100%) doesn't protect against magma eruption. Second, Darkness pays incredible dividends for the cost. Third, Relief isn't an instant fatigue reset, and shouldn't be the last spell scripted :(

[Louist]

Since I`m awake thanks to the nice drunk couple arguing in the hotel room next to me.

Wow, husband finally left after 40 minutes of threatening to leave. 5 minues later, the angry drunk wife throws her 13 year old daughter out of the room and says go stay with your father. Oh what fun. Sigh.

At least you don't have to go home to neighbours like that. (I hope!)

[buzzsaw]

I never noticed you had any routed commanders in that one. I was just watching mine get decimated :). Thanks for making me feel better :D

Darkness was real useful, I think you ended up hitting more of your guys then mine, especially when I first started casting it. However, you were able to get my mage who does the deed. :( He was more key to me then almost any other mage.

Thankfully things have finally quieted down next door. I have pretty decent neighbors back home who like the quiet life. Except for the occasional 2:00 a.m. baseball game with the guy who is blind. Still not sure why he was batting though. He did come over and apologize to the wife the next day. :)

[Valerius]

So buzzsaw and I have been talking and I'm obviously on my last legs. That will leave him facing a 2 vs 1 (he basically already is given how little I have left) and while he can drag things out he won't be able to defeat both Man and Ulm.

Olm and Louist, what do you think of the current game situation and how to proceed?

Edit: if you would like to proceed by finishing destroying Pan and Eriu and then fight it out for the win that is of course fine but I've noticed turns have started arriving later and I'm wondering if there's some fatigue setting in.

[Olm]

So buzzsaw and I have been talking and I'm obviously on my last legs. That will leave him facing a 2 vs 1 (he basically already is given how little I have left) and while he can drag things out he won't be able to defeat both Man and Ulm.

Olm and Louist, what do you think of the current game situation and how to proceed?

Edit: if you would like to proceed by finishing destroying Pan and Eriu and then fight it out for the win that is of course fine but I've noticed turns have started arriving later and I'm wondering if there's some fatigue setting in.

No fatigue with me, but very limited time.
I have rushed many a turn lately.
No real blunder yet, but I guess I could have advanced faster.

I for one am not inclined to battle it out with Ulm anyway. That would be a very lengthy war with unknown outcome. And it could become boring. So if you two do surrender, I am happy to share power with Louist and end the game.
If so I would like to ask some questions about the game before we close the threat.
And I will miss the opportunity to hunt down the Gorgon.

[Valerius]

I for one am not inclined to battle it out with Ulm anyway. That would be a very lengthy war with unknown outcome. And it could become boring. So if you two do surrender, I am happy to share power with Louist and end the game.

I thought the two of you might end up with a shared victory - I certainly wouldn't envy the time it would take for you to fight it out. I'm willing to concede but can't speak for buzzsaw.

If so I would like to ask some questions about the game before we close the threat.

Of course; have to have post game analysis. :)

And I will miss the opportunity to hunt down the Gorgon.

I didn't actually intend for her to make another appearance. Once the walls of my last fort were breached my plan was to cloud trapeze her into the water without any water breathing equipment. But I wanted to keep her around as long as possible for dominion spread if nothing else.

[Valerius]

I see everyone's turns are in so I guess we're playing on. Ok, just give me five minutes to complete my turn. ;)

[buzzsaw]

Sorry, I did not see the replies to this thread.

I believe the game could go on for a long time, but I would concede to the powers of Man and Ulm. :)

[Valerius]

Ok, then we just need to hear from Louist. Is Ulm willing to share the throne with Man?

[Olm]

I just arrived in our enemies province Banded Hills.
Through the usual channels I managed to arrange a meeting with our local spy , a bard named Alfred. We are to meet at dawn in a lonesome haybarn. All is quiet and I enter the barn carefully. It only consists of one room, mostly filled with hay and straw. At the far end of the room sits a man on a chair, with his back to me. I say the password, loud enough for him to hear. But there is no answer. I repeat, but the man stays silent. Carefully, out of his reach, my hand on my swordhilt I circle him. As I can see his face, I now this man will never utter another word. It has to be Alfred the Bard, for his Lute lies at his feet. His face is beaten and bruised. Obviously he has been tortured. And I can make out a thin wire around his neck. They strangled him with a string of his own Lute.

And it happened not long ago.

I know what that means, but I feel no panic or even worry inside. Just plain cold anger. As cold as the blade of the frostbrand I now draw. I check my gear and get ready for battle. Now I can hear movement and hushed voices outside the barn. I turn around and slowly walk to the door. They will not have to wait for me. And so they will find out soon, that I am no nearly helpless bard, but a Lord Warden of Avalon. And they will learn what we are capable of.

It's an army of nearly eighty soldiers. Milesians and a flock of black hawks. Lead by two of those arrogant Sidhe Lords. The Milesians and us beat them and their Thuata masters once, and we will do so again, with or against the Milesians, it doesn't matter. I send a fast prayer to the Mistress, and then the hawks are upon me. Laughable, in a second all of them are bound to the ground by vines from my shield. Killing them is no more difficult than killing a duck for supper. Then the main host of spearmen and swordmen is on me. But they can't hurt me. the one or the other strike that comes through doesn't even scratch my marble armor. In return I give them plenty, and soon their ranks get thinned.
The Sidhe use their magic to send phantasms against me. Futile attempt. I can only imagine they are surprised to meet a warrior like me in that barn. Otherwise they would have used their magic wiser.
The first Milesians start to run, and not short after the whole army flees head over heels, the Sidhe giving their horses spores to even be ahead of their soldiers.

Its quiet. The only thing I hear is the rushing of my blood in my ears. All enemies are gone or dead. I am victorious.
After a deep breath I start to collect weapons and armor from my enemies. No soldiers shall carry those swords again. I bring everything into the barn and lay it all around Alfred, at his feet. Then I take a cape of one of the fallen and use it, to clean the bards face. His eyes have seen victory in the end. I close them, so they may rest forever. Then I put the string to the Lute again and bring the instrument into tune.
Two songs I play and sing. One of grief, sorrow and farewell. And one of bravery, victory and a bright future. Songs fitting for a heroes funeral. I lay his instruments into the bards lap and leave the barn without a second look, b setting the hay afire before I walk through the door.

Even if short lived, this shall be a monument to all our brave and heroic spies who died in service to the mistress. In the end we will be victorious.

I don't know what awaits me tomorrow, don't know my next orders, don't know the enemies next move. But I know this day was a glorious one for Avalon.

[Valerius]

Olm, thanks for another very nice post. Nice touch with the bard being strangled with his own lute string (and those unrest causing bastards do deserve it). ;)

And on that note, we can call it a game! I've heard from Louist and he is happy to share the victory with Olm.

I think this game saw some good play all around and I'd welcome everyone's impressions of the game and the format. I'll write up a little AAR describing the misadventures of Pan. :p

[Olm]

Olm, thanks for another very nice post. Nice touch with the bard being strangled with his own lute string


Thank you. The story came to my mind when my Bard was discovered and immediately afterwards my raiding thug in the same province. The Bard died without chance. But the thug did very well and killed most of the PD sending the rest running.
I think Lord Wardens work well in that role against human PD. my standard equipment is a marble armor (or stone boots) a brand a vine shield, a pendant of luck an boots of the messenger.

(and those unrest causing bastards do deserve it). ;)

And on that note, we can call it a game! I've heard from Louist and he is happy to share the victory with Olm.


Great! Peace shall be again in this world, under the rule of Ulm and Man!


I think this game saw some good play all around and I'd welcome everyone's impressions of the game and the format. I'll write up a little AAR describing the misadventures of Pan. :p

I am looking forward to it.
I will write some kind of AAR too, and especially some more questions. I learned very much in this game and am very grateful to you Valerius, for answering all my noob questions.

Could you do me a favor and just do one more turn where only your (preferably fully decked out) gorgon breaks siege. I would very much like to see how the tag team I somewhat specialized for her works. just in case I ever happen to meet a gorgon again.

[buzzsaw]

Great story, even though it makes my guys seem evil. :)

Great game as well! :up:

Look forward to reading some of the AARs.

[Valerius]

I learned very much in this game and am very grateful to you Valerius, for answering all my noob questions.

No problem, I'm glad I was able to be of some help. The increase in your skill was very noticeable such that I started thinking maybe I should have sent the gorgon at you. :p

Could you do me a favor and just do one more turn where only your (preferably fully decked out) gorgon breaks siege. I would very much like to see how the tag team I somewhat specialized for her works. just in case I ever happen to meet a gorgon again.

Sure, we can definitely do that. However, I had cannibalized her gear. If you wait until next turn I can send my prophet to a lab and transfer gear. If you don't want to do that let me know and we'll go with what I've got available now.

Btw, one nice thing about the gorgon is that she's got recuperation. So even if she were killed she'd be able to heal afflictions she received in the process. I could also empower her to compensate for the lost magic levels. But even without any magic an awe+0, fear 5, 90 HP (in strong dominion) petrifying unit would still be very useful.

[Olm]

O.K. we meet on the field of battle in two turns.

[Valerius]

Ok, I'll break siege in 53 on turn 70.

[Olm]

O.K.
Here comes some very very short form of AAR. How the game developed in my eyes, and my questions to it:

My Pretender is a rainbow great enchantress with F3A4E2S3 and good scales for income. I figured my nationals would give me enough nature. My idea was to roughly follow Baalz guide. Expanding rather fast and build lots of fortresses. Additionally I wanted to use my Foresters to overtax all my provinces rto 110%
It worked quite well, as I was leader in money or nearly so most of the game.
I started in Province 79. I started immediately south, to block entrance to my lands at the lake. I met the Ulm PoD and nearly killed him with Longbowmen. I agreed with Ulm on a border at the lake and secured it with fortresses. That gave me a somewhat smaller than medium realm with no access to the center. But my lands were very defensible, and I built lots of forts to strengthen that, and to collect more income.
The problem was my lack of access to the smaller nations, so I tried some diplomacy to prevent Ulm and Pan eat them up. Tried to play those other two against each other. Pan finally ended all my efforts by beating down Arco which resulted in the world war with Man and Ulm against Pan and Eriu, that decided the game. I still had access problems to Pan. I was not able to conquer Giants Rest in reasonable time. And behind it there was Rethia with its Plaguewater stream, diseasing my armies. It really took some time until I mustered enough slingers to tear down the walls. Same goes for Livenmark in my heartland, which Pan conquered with a feary trod. It was costly, but Pan held it for a long time.
I tried some tricks to get past the choke point in Giants Rest, going by sea, or by magic and it worked to some degree.
Pan started to send out scouts with banevenom charms, which I found to be very effective, diseasing lots of my many Mothers of Avalon. I sneaked too with Wardens and Lord Wardens. They were quite effective.
But in my opinion what did the trick were the Bards. They are just very, very effective at crippling an economy. And with very expansive Pans, Pan just needs its money.
So to speak of my war against Pan:
What decided it was the absence of the Gorgon and my Bards.
What could have turned the tide were more Pan Thugs/SC's. The last one (Thenetos?) was even stronger than Ares, as he had more MR (28?). He alone was not enough in the end, but 3 or 4 of them could have driven me back.
If I look at my armies now, there is not so much left. Most died from Disease. Only the Knights of Avalon are nearly immune, which makes them even greater units than they are anyway.

Now some questions from me:
What is an effective counter to Bards spreading unrest?
I would like to know some things about Eriu:
-Why did they fare so badly in the beginning? They had a similar starting position as me, with a nice backyard and a very defensible acces to its realms.
Was there an early war between Eriu and Arco?
What happened later to Eriu? Why did he suddenly beat bqack Ulm on large scale? Eriu even reached my southern border. And Ulm gave Gems to me because he thought he wouldn't stand much longer. What was Erius strategy in that successful campaign?
What ended that campaign, and why in turn couldn't Eriu put a stop to Ulms advance afterwards?

I have to say I learned a lot in this game, and I really learned to love Dom as an MP game. Thats why that Eriu comeback fascinates me. In most of the strategy games power scales almost exclusively with size. And if you have a certain size advantage you almost certainly win, because the smaller one has lesser resources every time. But in Dom this seems not to be so strict a case. The smaller one has his chance with good tactics and strategy. And thats really great.

Thanks to all and I am looking forward to the Gorgon :)

[Olm]

Ah, a comment on the settings:
I don't like the dead seas. Make them less important O.K., but this way you gain absolutely nothing by conquering them, and I didn't like that so much.

The absence of independents really makes one concentrate on the strengths of the own nation. Was interesting and surely forced me to learn Man inside out.
What I couldn't understand was that noone contested me with the mercenaries. They were the only means of magical diversification. my two merc mages served me well, forging many a pendant of luck and a fire brand.
I even had a death mage and let him die before summoning at least a reverent :(

Magic only to level 6 i cannot judge yet, since I really never played an endgame yet.
Whats not so good is, that all my mages had nothing to do in the end.
And I sure missed GoH :)

The assimilation part played no role for me. I conquered Pan rather late, and it gave me nothing I didn't have.
I guess that works better with much more nations in the game, preferably really tightly packed. So that half of the nations are gone by turn 30 or so.

[buzzsaw]

I can only comment on Eriu from like turn 33 or so, since I took over for Samhain. He still looks at this thread and may comment on the earlier life.

Eriu had several things going for it at my takeover.

Great research
Good income
Good gems
NAP with Pan

A Sidhe Lord and champion every turn along with a Tuatha was being recruited every turn.. A very minimal amount of non commanders was being recruited as well.

I created two distinct undead armies based on heat and cold. These were supported by Sidhe C/L and Tuatha. More or less, the undead armies were damage sponges while the mages did their things. I was going to create a poison army but it never happened.

Going for Arcos cap, All who could buffed mistform. I used a D4 mage to cast darkness, equipped all my non-thunderstrikers mages with bows of war, set them to eagle eyes and fire closest. I had another mage cast wind guide, another cast arrow fend, and my pretender, who was a rainbow crone, to cast fire arrows. All other mages were set to eagle eyes and spam thunderstrike. Since Eriu gets 50% darkvision, this really tore Ulm up, especially the trolls..... all those poor, poor trolls. :) My army used about 70 mages and 150 or so troops.

After taking over Arcos cap and the surrounding lands I headed on towards 46, 47, 42 enjoying good success until dragons ridge. I had split my army off to grab more land while seiging dragons ridge when Ulm broke seige. With most of my good guys out, he attacked with a very potent army that devastated mine and even killed my pretender. I lost count of the number of master smiths he had that seemed to spam magma eruption.

While the above was going on, I sent a small force of hall of fame, heavily equipped tuatha through the south and into Ulms backyard. I found lots of nice gem sites and was raiding at will, destroying anything that they met, except for troops on forts. I tried to lure Ulm out using glamor and hiding and sniped a few troops but for the most part he stayed put. I cloud trapezed more tuatha in for a total of 10 thugs. This is when i i Had Ulm down to the mat. I think he had 11 provinces left but of course, 9 forts. I could not siege them with what I had and thats where the southern group ran out of steam. I wish I was able to give them some siege weapons, but I couldn`t at the time.

After the defeat at dragons ridge, I sneaked most of the surviving mages out and around Mans area while running a non glamoured suicide force to distract Man. Any troops that went to the West sneaked through and joined my southern army near Ulm which brought them up to 17 thugs. I`m confident at this point that the southern group could stand up to almost anything currently on the map. Over half are in the HoF and the rest were at 3 stars.

Man started doing the raiding in my area and I watched in horror as my unrest started to skyrocket. At one point Arcos was at 350 unrest.

I ended having to set just about everyone on patrol and cast watcher in many provinces, which gives a patrol bonus of 50. That helped at the end, and most of my provinces were back at zero unrest.

I hope I answered some questions you may have had and please ask if you have anymore or need more details. This was like my 3rd MP game in public, had a few private ones at work, so this was a good learning game for me as well.

I really think the success I had was due to the magic cap at level 6. I don`t think Eriu is a powerhouse at end game.


Short Version: Thunder Strike kicks butt.

[buzzsaw]

For me on the mercs, I didn`t have the income to spare, as my commanders were much too important not to recruit.

Assimilation helped some with astral when I took over Arcos, but I was also summoning spectres who gave me some astral as well. Thats when I started mind hunting.

[buzzsaw]

One other note to my AAR, after the dragons ridge battle, I never fought Ulm again on the large scale. He did have dragon ridge swelling with troops/scorpion beasts though. We more or less see-sawed some lands. I think the biggest army I encountered was in the south had 95 troops plus commanders.

I put up a large army in Arcos for when he did strike from dragons ridge.

I would love to hear his account of the battles as I didn`t know I had him that badly off. Even when I had him down to 11 provinces, I figured he was stronger then me.

[Valerius]

I took a sleeping gorgon pretender with some A magic, good scales and strong dominion. I used my national troops for expansion. I didn't expect to be rushed but if someone did get that idea I figured the gorgon would shut them down. My plan was to get a good share of territories and then turtle while I researched and developed a blood economy.

However, I didn't stick with my plan. I became worried about Arco, who seemed like he might turn things around and defeat Ulm after having made peace with Eriu. The thought of risk free mind hunts, soul slay and gifts from heaven really worried me so I attacked. I also really wanted those mystics as fire, water and astral would give me access to 3 of the 4 paths I lacked.

At first I used the gorgon and she destroyed Arco's main army. During this war I decided she was OP for these settings and shouldn't be used. Man attacked while I was still fighting Arco but Arco was in bad enough shape that my decision to just hold off Man while I focused on Arco was successful. But I think before I could even take Arco's cap Ulm declared war as well.

Unfortunately I staled at this point and that prevented me from getting enough troops inside Arco's cap to just hole up there until Eriu was ready to enter the fight. I decided I would fight for Arco's cap and basically lost my entire southern army.

Ulm suffered heavy losses as well but almost all of his approx. 30 mages survived (a fair amount of my mages survived as well). I never recovered from this and after that point my forces largely consisted of maenads and harpies. They were fine for dragging things out and making my forts difficult to take but they couldn't match up with Man or Ulm's forces.

The painful thing about having my pretender out of the mix is that it meant I had no A magic. I was of course aware that under these rules the one type of mage you couldn't summon was an air mage. When I was designing my pretender I considered both the gorgon and the phoenix and later I really regretted not taking the phoenix.

Something I really underestimated was the power of evocation. In that battle for Arco my troops were able to handle Ulm's but the magma eruption spam killed me. In the current version of CBM nature has options like flood of life but here I was completely outclassed and even if I had the phoenix pretender and had done a better job in choosing my fights I don't know if I could have stood up to a nonstop barrage of lightning and magma.

Also, since we were limited to level 6 magic I took drain 2 (I also figured it would help to protect against mind hunts, etc.). This proved suprisingly painful as it meant dryads were fairly useless as researchers. I think I'm the only one who never finished researching everything to level 6.

[Valerius]

What could have turned the tide were more Pan Thugs/SC's. The last one (Thenetos?) was even stronger than Ares, as he had more MR (28?). He alone was not enough in the end, but 3 or 4 of them could have driven me back.

My experience has been that Pan's aren't great thugs. Those prophets worked because they had so many more HP than a normal Pan. And keep in mind that you could easily cast gift of flight on one of your thugs and hit the Pan before he even finished buffing. But the Iron Will heroic ability on my second prophet was a nice bonus given how the first fell to stream of life.


If I look at my armies now, there is not so much left. Most died from Disease. Only the Knights of Avalon are nearly immune, which makes them even greater units than they are anyway.

Yes, the Knights were definitely a problem. But in a strange way I was glad you had them because without GoH or the chalice or faery queens it felt kind of cheesy to just be poisoning everything. So at least you a troop option that could deal with it.


I would like to know some things about Eriu:
-Why did they fare so badly in the beginning? They had a similar starting position as me, with a nice backyard and a very defensible acces to its realms.
Was there an early war between Eriu and Arco?

Eriu tends to be a slow starting nation and he also had a bad cap location in terms of surrounding provinces. And yes, the first war that broke out was between Eriu and Arco.


In most of the strategy games power scales almost exclusively with size. And if you have a certain size advantage you almost certainly win, because the smaller one has lesser resources every time. But in Dom this seems not to be so strict a case. The smaller one has his chance with good tactics and strategy. And thats really great.

Well, size is important in that it will translate into more gold (more mages = better research) and gems and so all things being equal the smaller nation will fall behind - however a small nation can definitely have a chance. If the larger nation has been exhausted by other wars or if the smaller nation has chosen a build that emphasizes strong research they can apply that advantage the larger nation can leverage their superior resources. And of course tactics and strategy (including diplomacy) matter hugely. Being the front runner can really work against you if it just means you get dogpiled. Better IMO to be in 2nd-3rd place and then make a move when you think you can avoid it backfiring on you.


The assimilation part played no role for me. I conquered Pan rather late, and it gave me nothing I didn't have.
I guess that works better with much more nations in the game, preferably really tightly packed. So that half of the nations are gone by turn 30 or so.

I agree that it wasn't a big factor and that it would work better in a game with more players. I think everyone would have liked Arco's cap but that was the only one that really turned over for most of the game.


Going for Arcos cap, All who could buffed mistform. I used a D4 mage to cast darkness, equipped all my non-thunderstrikers mages with bows of war, set them to eagle eyes and fire closest. I had another mage cast wind guide, another cast arrow fend, and my pretender, who was a rainbow crone, to cast fire arrows. All other mages were set to eagle eyes and spam thunderstrike. Since Eriu gets 50% darkvision, this really tore Ulm up, especially the trolls..... all those poor, poor trolls. :) My army used about 70 mages and 150 or so troops.

After taking over Arcos cap and the surrounding lands I headed on towards 46, 47, 42 enjoying good success until dragons ridge. I had split my army off to grab more land while seiging dragons ridge when Ulm broke seige. With most of my good guys out, he attacked with a very potent army that devastated mine and even killed my pretender. I lost count of the number of master smiths he had that seemed to spam magma eruption.

Those types of battle were to me the highlight of the game. Lots of mages, lots of troops. :)


I found lots of nice gem sites and was raiding at will, destroying anything that they met, except for
troops on forts. I tried to lure Ulm out using glamor and hiding and sniped a few troops but for the most part he stayed put.

I cloud trapezed more tuatha in for a total of 10 thugs. This is when i i Had Ulm down to the mat. I think he had 11 provinces left but of course, 9 forts. I could not siege them with what I had and thats where the southern group ran out of steam. I wish I was able to give them some siege weapons, but I couldn`t at the time.

This is actually a very typical pattern for TNN/Eriu - you grab a huge number of provinces with raiding but can't take the forts and gradually the defender starts taking back his provinces. Ideally you want to back up the raiding with an army coming in to take control of the forts and you did just that but when Ulm stopped that army you were left with the raiders. IMO raiding is a nice supplement (and very fun to do ) but you need an army to back it up and really make gains.


Man started doing the raiding in my area and I watched in horror as my unrest started to skyrocket. At one point Arcos was at 350 unrest.

I ended having to set just about everyone on patrol and cast watcher in many provinces, which gives a patrol bonus of 50.

That helped at the end, and most of my provinces were back at zero unrest.

The bards certainly did a good job. Heavy patrolling is the best bet, especially if you start it before unrest has gotten too high. But the tricky thing is, at least in my teritory, he also had forces of wardens so I needed something tough patrolling to deal with them when they were uncovered (for instance if I used harpies they might discover the hidden units but they wouldn't beat the sacreds).


I really think the success I had was due to the magic cap at level 6. I don`t think Eriu is a powerhouse at end game.

I would definitely agree with that. They are at their best in the midgame and since this game only went up to the midgame it was a good fit for them. The same could be said for Man, which while less thug focused and more troop focused, shares the same paths.

[Samhain]

I'll try to recap Eriu's early position as best as I can. But, due as the time crunch that forced me out of the game was a creeping condition, I took scant notes.

Here was my design for Cailleach.

Physical: Crone
Awakening: Dormant
Magic: F4W4E4S4D4N4
Dominion: 4
Scales: S2C1L3M1

My strategy was to have a healthy enough gold income to build plenty of forts and push out a Tuatha and loads of Sidhe Lords every turn. Cailleach's purpose was to site search early then later summon some good mid game undead mucle with Hidden in Sand and Hidden in Snow. Spectres, mainly to guard against Mind Hunt, was to be my primary use of Death gems. Later, she would forge key gear for my top thugs.

The bless went far short of the classic Eriu/Tir Na N'Og bless of E9N4+. But, with no indie mages I felt the magic diversity was going to serve me better in the long run than the uber raider bless.

Expansion went well save for getting penned in by mountains and Arcosphale's expansion to his east. I envisioned the 28 cap nation to expand to the southwest after securing its adjacent provinces. Of course, ghoul31 went right into me.

When he built a fort in 40, I felt war was better sooner rather than later. Unfortunately, I completely underestimated the number of chariots he had. My Sidhe Lords couldn't lay down the False Fetters fast enough. He drove me back nearly to my own cap before Ulm weighed in on the other side and I was able to regain some territory before calling for a NAP to turn 36.

Fortunately, I lost no, or perhaps almost no, commanders. Still, I needed some peace to get things back on track. I was too busy at that point for war anyway. I turned the game over to Buzzsaw before things got interesting again.

[Valerius]

Ok, time for the final showdown. My gorgon is breaking the siege of 53 this turn. I'll force host when I see your turn is in.

[Olm]

Lets Go.

[Valerius]

Hosting now...

[Valerius]

Poor gorgon. :( I guess I should have had better offensive capabilities instead of two shields. I actually thought I might autoroute and under normal circumstances would have made sure to have an escape province.

However, this doesn't change my opinion that the gorgon was OP for these game settings. She's not invulnerable (Eriu's thugs could have done something similar fairly early on and of course Arco had S magic) but having what is essentially a reusable Aegis available in a level 6 max magic game is IMO too much.

[Olm]

Thanks for the fight.
I tried to do it with not too much mage support, but rather with my own thugs.
What works best are the Troll Kings with Amulets of Antimagic and AP weapon. The Lord Wardens were not bad either but I'd have to pack quite a few with AP to really do the trick. In this fight they were not enough.
Bolas are useless against Fire resistance.
What was strange: No Vine Bow fired. They were all ordered to fire large monsters.
Why did your Eye Shield not work? I thought its blind without chance to avoid it?
And the Vine Schields didn't make much contact either.

[Valerius]

Why did your Eye Shield not work? I thought its blind without chance to avoid it?

There's definitely a resistance roll. I think it's probably just a normal MR roll but I know that high MR units fair a lot better than average MR ones.

And the Vine Schields didn't make much contact either.

That's true. Also strange about the vine bows. It might be worth running the battle in debug mode.

Btw, the axe of hate was a nice touch. If that had landed a hit the battle might have been over within a couple of rounds. If I hadn't had the blood slaves as blockers it might have turned out that way (you said no other units but since she can teleport with them and it's easy to restock them with harpies when she's out in the field I figured that was ok).

I also gave the gorgon some gems hoping she might use them to reduce fatigue but of course that didn't happen.

[Olm]

Btw, the axe of hate was a nice touch. If that had landed a hit the battle might have been over within a couple of rounds. If I hadn't had the blood slaves as blockers it might have turned out that way (you said no other units but since she can teleport with them and it's easy to restock them with harpies when she's out in the field I figured that was ok).

No problem.
I hoped to get you with the axe and the winged shoes before buffing.
The axe of hate seems to me a very good anti SC weapon, i'd definitly bring more next time I face a similar situation.
I tried to Gift of Flight some more units to interrupt you, but my mothers chose their targets poorly.

I just tried the -dd flag the first time and wrote the debug info to a file. But its that much information, I essentially don't understand a thing.
Is there a guide somewhere how to read this?

[Valerius]

I don't know of any guides and I'm fairly certain it's not in the modding documentation either.

But I see these lines repeatedly:

Too high friendly fire for Forester (unit7965 snr-1)
Too high friendly fire for Forester (unit12599 snr-1)
Too high friendly fire for Sleeper (unit14239 snr-1)
Too high friendly fire for Forester (unit15493 snr-1)