EA Tempest - Game Finished - Dimaz Wins!!!

[Executor]

New EA game, Tempest.

Game Info>
Admin: Executor
Game Name: Tempest
Server: LlamaServer

Settings:
Era: EA
Indies: 5
Special Sites: 50
Graphs: Disabled (use scouts)
HoF: 15
Research: Standard
Victory conditions: To the death
Mods: CBM 1.6, EDM

Hosting schedule: 24 hours until requested otherwise

NAPs and other agreements are expected to be honored once accepted, not binding however.

Players:

Executor - Kailasa
Odeoderok - Ermor
ghoul31 - Yomi
Ossa - Hinnom
vargr - Lanka
HorrorFend - T'ien Chi
Dimaz - Mictlan
Hoplosternum - Niefelheim
Mightypeon - Sauromatia
Aethyr - Abysia
kasnavada - Fomoria
don_Pablo - Helheim
Sil - Atlantis

[ghoul31]

Why are you using 1.6? With 1.6, tarts are the only good SC's in the game.

[odeoderok]

I'd like to join as Ermor.

[ghoul31]

I'll take Yomi

[Executor]

Why are you using 1.6? With 1.6, tarts are the only good SC's in the game.

CBM 1.8 has one change too many for me, with a special note on ****ed up item prices and the inability to rush/forge artifacts.

Welcome aboard guys.

[Ossa]

I'd give it a try with Hinnom. Never played them before.

[vargr]

I'd like to join. Lanka for some fiendish monkey business..

[HorrorFend]

I'm in. I've been waiting for a chance to play EA T'ien Chi.

[Dimaz]

Hi Exec, nice to see you back. I'll be away till the beginning of August, if you start your game in August I can join too.

[Executor]

Ossa, vargr, HorrorFend, welcome.

Hi Exec, nice to see you back. I'll be away till the beginning of August, if you start your game in August I can join too.

Hello Dimaz,
thanks, it's nice to be back.
Sorry World of Symmetry ended as it did, couldn't be helped much from my part, it was an especially pleasant game for me.

I'm happy to wait for you, personally I enjoy playing with you, but if the other player are not too keen on waiting for you I might have to start without you as not to lose other players, I hope you understand.
However, I will keep this game open for a while to see if we can maybe get more players and make it a big and competitive game, hopefully, you'll be able to join in by than.

[Dimaz]

It's fine either way for me, probably I'll start my own 1.6 game in August if you start before I return.

[Hoplosternum]

I would like to join. I like EA :) And I like 1.6 :)

I have not played Niefel in mp so I'll choose them if I can and people seem to be choosing a lot of the heavy hitter nations. If not I'll take one of my old favourites - Fomoria or Helheim.

I am happy to wait until August so Dimaz can join. Although as he usually (always?) thrashes me when we meet I am not sure why :p

[Executor]

Another familiar face! Of course you can take Niefelheim Hoplo, I see no reason to ban any nation when I've obviously taken the most powerful nation of them all! ;)

Anyway, I'd be happy to take the honor of trashing you if Dimaz becomes unavailable or doesn't start next to you. :)

Dimaz, I've put you down for the game, would you like to chose a nation now perhaps? You can think trough your strategy while you're on your vacation (I suppose?)

[Louist]

I could always use more Caelum practice.

[Mightypeon]

Greetings, I would be interested in Sauromatia.

[Dimaz]

I'll take one of the remaining ones later, it's time to try something new. Yes, you're right about vacation.

[Aethyr]

Welcome back Ex. I'll take Abysia.

[kasnavada]

I'd like to join in too. I don't care about waiting until August at all, on the contrary. I'll pick Fomoria.

[don_Pablo]

Well, I failed to resist joining this game. :(

Helheim for me please.
I'd prefer to start in august. I believe that HaidaGwaii will capture the hidden city of Shangri-La by that moment :)

[Executor]

Louist, Mightypeon, Aethyr, kasnavada, welcome.

don_Pablo, I'll do what I can to rid you of that game, however it might speed things up if you dispel your SoAP, and give me them shiny boots. :)

All righty, seems we have 13 players so far, and waiting for Dimaz to pick a nation and join in in about a week.
Seeming how all the nations are land nations I'm willing to hear suggestions regarding the map we'll be using.
I guess if worst comes to worst we(I) could modify the seas on a map to dead water (no characteristics, gems, gold, pop, etc...)

I'll keep the game open until we settle on a map, at which point I'll create the game on Llamaserver.
You should all have a couple of days to create your pretender and work on your strategy.

[Sil]

If there's still space I'd like either Atlantis or C'tis. Depending on whether you want a solo water nation or not.

[Executor]

Sure, one water player is better than none. Atlantis it is.

Two best map choices imo seem to be Cradle of Dominions or Riverlands, both good for 1 sea player and about 12-13 land nations.

Keeping that in mind it might be best to close the game now also.

[kasnavada]

(edited, learn to read skill needed).

If the problem is the number of sea provinces, I offer to switch to a water nation : I wished to try something different, fomoria or a sea nation is way different from what I usually play so both are fine.

[Louist]

Sorry everyone, I'm going to have to withdraw. I'd missed that this game is planning to start next month, and I'm planning to go camping towards the end of August.

[kasnavada]

*Fetching for news*

[Executor]

I guess it has been a little quiet...

Well, we're still a few days from August, but I suppose I should create the game some time soon. With Louist out it's down to 12+1 players (assuming nobody else dropped out too), so it's either Cradle of Dominions for the map or Greece Stain, depending on how I feel like it tomorrow.

Oh, and I think Sil would like to be the only water player here from what I read Kasnavada, so no need to switch nations.

[kasnavada]

Oh, and I think Sil would like to be the only water player here from what I read Kasnavada, so no need to switch nations.

I don't mind. For "balance" issue sometime it is asked to have 2 water nations, and most map are for 2 / 3 water + X number of land nations.

Fomoria it is then.

[Aethyr]

I vote for Cradle

[Ossa]

I dont mind.

[militarist]

Instead of using 1.6 I would suggest the latest,just add more magic sites to compensate hammers. There is no way to compensate rods, but those nations in EA which can bloodhunt are strong enough to be happy even without them.

[Aethyr]

Interesting idea...I guess I could go along with either option.

On a separate note, and it's totally cool if you guys are not open to this, but I've been just dying to try Azurain's Assimilation mod in MP. Ex, any chance you would consider this for this game?

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=46696

[Ossa]

Sounds interesting. I'd give it a try.

[Executor]

Militarist, increasing magic site frequency (any more that this) would most likely force everyone to take a rainbow mage to compensate for lack of national paths which I think is bad choice really.

I've played in a larger game with such a setting and it just brought massive amounts of SCs, AN abuse(from my part :)) and other.
Generally just total magic madness. Anyone who didn't choose a rainbow mage got behind rather fast and lost.

If there is a 1.8 version of CBM with no item modification I'd be happy yo use that version, however the item prices are totally out of balance now so we stick with 1.6 otherwise.

Aethyr, I actually wanted to try out this mod a while back, so I wouldn't mind including it in this game.
However I won't sneak in this mod after everybody already signed on, so if the rest of you are up for this mod we'll use it.

[ghoul31]

Aethyr, I actually wanted to try out this mod a while back, so I wouldn't mind including it in this game.
However I won't sneak in this mod after everybody already signed on, so if the rest of you are up for this mod we'll use it.

I thibk it would alter the balance too much. Everyone would have every magic path pretty quickly and would make things very bland.

[Aethyr]

Aethyr, I actually wanted to try out this mod a while back, so I wouldn't mind including it in this game.
However I won't sneak in this mod after everybody already signed on, so if the rest of you are up for this mod we'll use it.
I agree with this decision, if agreement is not unanimous then we should not use it. If that's the case, maybe next time. :)

[Dimaz]

Mictlan please.
I'll be able to create and send pretender this Sunday.

[Executor]

Game created, finally...

[Mightypeon]

Pretender incoming!

[kasnavada]

Pretender sent !

[HorrorFend]

Pretender is in.

[llamabeast]

CB 1.9 will be out in a few weeks, with heavily rethought item prices (although there are many changes, item changes are the biggest thing), along with full documentation. When it comes I'd be very grateful for your comments Executor (and everyone else).

In so far as is possible (probably not very possible), I would like the latest version of CBM to be an uncontroversially preferable choice.

[Dimaz]

I don't think it's possible, unless QM by some miracle decided to bring back into the game hammers and rods.

[llamabeast]

Well if that happened then I wouldn't use the new version! :)

[kasnavada]

My personnal opinion on CBM is that it's about as balanced as the base game is. It has the same basic flaws : lots of undocumented changes, and mostly undocumented reasons for changes. Which is the expected result of having no guidelines (unless I missed them ?) when making a modification. guidelines like "for balance issue, nations should be able to take X number of provinces by turn Y", "for balance issue, nations should be able to field thugs around turn Z". "Those nations got thugs earlier, but compensated by lack of A B and C".

It feels like CBM changes on a forum discussion with "let's try this" ideas instead of putting down guidelines and enforcing them.

Nevertheless, CBM are fun to play because it gives a new experience with the same game, however, as winning in this game relies on completely knowing how every single undocumented stuff works... well I like new stuff more than winning so it's ok I guess.

[llamabeast]

My personnal opinion on CBM is that it's about as balanced as the base game is

I think that's fairly damning!

There are a *lot* of balance issues in the base game. CBM may not get everything right but it does fix a lot of egregious issues.

In my opinion just removing gem gens makes the game hugely more satisfying.

[Executor]

Well I look forward to seeing the new CBM Llama, but I'm not really optimistic about it to be honest. I kinda agree with Dimaz.
I'm convinced that the hammers are a lesser of two evils (the other one being hugely unbalanced item prices), including blood rods. They might overpower blood magic but at least all nation can use blood equally.

Now as for item price regulation in the new CBM, so far I looked at it from a construction rusher point of view. The current 1.8 CB version almost eliminates the point of rushing artifacts as you can't afford to forge them even when you hit const 8 first, which I find ridiculous as the whole point of risking to rush construction and not researching battle or summoning spells so that you can snatch the best artifacts is sort of obsolete.

[llamabeast]

Hmm, interesting.

Well I should say that I was unsure about the hammer change for a long time, although I've now decided I'm in favour of it. But I can see that's it's controversial.

With regard to the lesser of two evils: Item prices can at least be separately modded (in CB1.9 lots of artifacts get a lot cheaper). But so long as the hammer is in the game, every nation has to have a way to get E3, which feels like a nasty and kind of unthematic restriction.

The hope would be that by rebalancing item prices, we can manage to get neither evil.

[Aethyr]

Hi Llama,

I amd in partial agreement with Executor. I do not necessarily want to see hammers return, but we do need to see some changes in artifact pricing sot that the construction rush can be a viable strategy option. I'm glad to hear that 1.9 will make some changes, and I look forward to the coming release.

[Aethyr]

Btw, what was the final decision on the map?

[Calahan]

I was totally against hammer removal from the moment CBM 1.7 was released. And from having had a taste of games with CBM 1.7 (played) and 1.8+ (playing), I can say I absolutely hate the effects that the removal of hammers has had on the game.

As besides the much talked about item pricing issue (which is a problem, and a major one, but not THE major one for me) there is the unsolvable problem (ie. Can't be solved without hammers) that no hammers has removed an intrinsic part of the strategy from the game, and indeed has IMO removed a large chunk of player skill from the game by drastically reducing the judgement calls that need to be made in the early to mid game (say from design to turn 40).



As take the following hypothetical scenario. It's very early in the game, say before turn 20, you have no hammers and a limited amount of Earth gems (lets say 5+2). Your first war has just started, and you decide a good option for the upcoming fights will be to have a thug (we'll say just one thug is needed right now) that needs to have both some fire protection and good chaff killing ability, and lets say you have Const 4, and the paths to forge any item.

Now basically any newbie, vet, or total Dominions retard can forge a Fire Brand and stick it on the thug, and that fits the needs of the above requirements in terms of FR and chaff killing. But without hammers, where the f**k is the skill in just ordering a mage to "forge a Fire Brand"? I'll tell you where the skill in that is, there is no f**king skill in that. End of story.

But WITH hammers, this changes dramatically, as some typical examples of the type of "judgement calls" you need to make are....


1 - Can I afford to use the few Earth gems I have to splash out on a Fire Brand? How will that effect both the speed and availability of my hammers going into mid game? Can I really risk not getting hammers until turn 30+? As with my Earth gems sitting on just 5+2, using 5E to forge a Fire Brand could hurt my hammer situation.

2 - How soon do I need my thug to have a Fire Brand? Can I afford to delay it until I get my first hammer, when I can forge it at a discount, or maybe until I know I will have more Earth gems (either from events or new sites) so that forging a Fire Brand at full price won't hurt my hammer situation.

3 - Is a Fire Brand the best option when considering all factors? Can I perhaps forge a Ring of FR and another weapon instead to do the same job? As even though that might cost me more gems for worse items, it would preserve my Earth gem stocks for hammers

4 - Can I delay my enemy, or allow him to capture a few meaningless provinces, until the situation is clearer regarding my Earth gem situation. If I want to win the game, then there's no point winning this war at the cost of throwing the game away (by sacrificing hammers just to forge the "ideal" item for the job, a Fire Brand)

5 - Do I know anything about my enemy's gem income? As if he has good Earth income, then I can risk using up my Earth gems now (at the risk of falling behind in hammers) in order to try and conquer a good source of Earth gems, thereby solving my hammer/Earth income problem.


And the above is just ONE example of ONE type of judgement call that needs to be made when hammers are in the game, and I've ignored all trade options. And there can be dozens of these types of judgement calls in each game based simply around hammers. Several coming just during Pretender design alone. But as I indicated above, without hammers the above list of options is reduced to just one completely skill-less option of...


1 - Forge a Fire Brand as it's the best option. (and since there are no hammers, there's no penalty for forging items early. No penalty for not thinking ahead with regards what I need to forge, as I can just mass forge anything I need at any point. And without hammers there's far less need to try and conserve specific gem types for essential "must forge these early or I will fall badly behind other players" type items)


And reducing the options available from a substantial list of viable ones, to one no brainer option, is NOT a good change from any viewpoint. Apart from the viewpoint of watering down the game and making it easier to play (as now less judgement calls need to be made, and far less ability needed to think ahead to what items you need so that you make sure to forge them with hammers. Since f**k thinking ahead by forging optimally! Mass forging everything the turn before you need it FTW!).



All the reasons for removing hammers were bulls**t as well IMO. As hammers only cause late game MM if you are constantly moving hammers around mages, but if you are doing that then you are creating your own MM. As you still need basic items like AMA's, Rainbow Armours, Quickboots etc each turn with or without hammers in the game, so you still need to click "forge essential item #1" multiple times each turn either way. It's just with hammers you had to do, and do JUST ONE TIME, an additional few mouse clicks to "put a hammer on the regular forger guy". There is no way that can be considered MM in the larger context of the MM you need to do in the late game.

And there is the argument that "you HAVE to forge hammers or you will just lose". But I fail to understand why this is such a bad thing, as having essential gameplay elements, or "things you must do", form the basis of most games. (And you have to research, expand, buy troops etc etc etc, so there are already lots of things you MUST do). But within the parameters of these "must do things" there is a great deal for both scope and learning in how, in this case, to get a good hammer supply with each nation, and in knowing and learning just where the boundaries are with regards to how few hammers you can survive on if supply is limited (by working out well in advance what items you will need in X turns time, and not just mass forging the turn before you need them) and in knowing when you can accept the cost of forging without hammers if the advantages are worth it, or knowing how to achieve the same things without items that you usually achieve with them (ie. using spell casting raiders or naked thugs with support buffs, instead of using thug raiders with items)



Since at the end of the day for me, there are a lot of decisions in the early / mid game (and design stage) that need to be made that are focused around hammers, which are beneficial to the overall gameplay. And on times there is a lot of skill required in making the correct judgement calls at crucial times, and in balancing your war needs against making sure you managed to get hammers (and a further balancing act on top of this again if you are rushing artefacts). And all this was especially so in games where your Earth gems were in limited supply. (indeed I remember fondly some games I played where I had almost no Earth gems, so really had to dig deep into the trick bag to survive and prosper with only forging limited items, as I knew forging at full cost would ruin my overall chances of winning the game). As making bad judgement calls in such situations can pretty much leave you with having no chance to win by turn 40, regardless of whether you are winning your current war(s). And this is a good thing IMO, as making bad judgement calls should be harshly punished.

Gem gens had much of the same gameplay mechanics as hammers, in that if you didn't forge them you would just lose long-term, and if you wanted to win you always had to keep a close eye on making sure you started forging gem gens (or clams basically, as they gave you 2x the income of the other gem gens via Wish) asap. But they had to be removed not because having the ability to invest gems early into directly creating gems for long-term gain (ie. the theory of the mechanic was not broken), but because the way they worked was just horrible for all aspects of the game (or at least mid-large sized games between competent players). But the mechanics of hammers was not, and is not, broken at all. Hammers work fine, always have and always will. As they allow the player some control over how much he pays for items, and thereby allows the player to decided for themselves if and when paying full price for an item is worth it. (more player decisions is a good thing IMO)

I do accept that removing hammers might have made the game more "fun" for some players. As who wants to be forced into "thinking" about things like hammers during Pretender design. ("I just want to create a cool thematic God for my nation"). Or trying to work out how to get hammers during the game. ("having to ensure I get Earth gems somehow is just unfair, and limits my options in-game, as I really want to spam 'Earth gem summon X / Earth gem item Y' because that is a good laugh, but I can't because then I will lose the game against those players smart enough to keep their Earth gems for hammers. Boo hoo, I hate hammers, and I hate being forced to do stuff. In fact I've just decided that I'm not going to school tomorrow since I only go because I am being forced to, and there's also no way my mum is going to force me to take a bath ever again. If I want to stink of sh*t then that's my decision! Free will FTW!!!").



I won't be playing in any new games for quite a while due to my RL work commitments, but I can safely say that I will never play another game without hammers, as they remove one of the fundamental aspects of the game, and indeed one of the aspects I enjoy the most about Dominions (and games in general). ie. Having to make judgement calls on a regular basis (the more the better, as more means more chances of allowing the skill of a player to make the correct calls), where bad decisions (due to lack of ability or forethought) are severely punished, and having to finely balance several needs at once (as above, the more the better) and having the skill and experience to know how little or much of "whatever" is needed in each given situation (such are knowing and learning how to survive with either none or limited items, if lack of hammers is limiting forging abilities).

Removing hammers might have made the game more "fun" for some players, but those who think it has "improved" the game are very misguided IMO. It's just a real shame that the vast majority of the "serious" Dominions players have left the community (or at least are no longer active), since I very much doubt they would have been supportive of such a change. But most players now seem to fall into the "casual" category, and to them a watered down game where less judgement calls need to be made, and where less thought in Pretender design is required, is preferred over a deeper game where more forethought and skill is required. Or maybe it's just a lot of the current (new) players don't realise that games with hammers are better, since they always get advised by the CBM loving regulars to "you must use the latest CBM", thereby preventing them from really ever getting the chance to realise or experience that games with hammers are simply better than games without them (if you enjoy more complex games).


Oh and finally, for me at least no amount of item re-pricing will solve the problem (not that I don't appreciate all the efforts that llama is putting into CBM these days, since that truly is legendry), since you can make every item cost 5gems and OP, or make every item cost 130gems and UP. Since the basic problem is you've taken away from the player (via hammer removal) the ability to decide in-game just how much a player is willing to pay for an item, and all the judgement calls that have to be made in the early to mid game, based around whether you are willing to pay full price for an item, or instead are willing and able to wait, do without, find alternatives etc to those items. This is a fundamental aspect of the game, and IMO removing it has had a negative effect on the game, and even worse to me personally, has made the game far less enjoyable to play, as there are far less things to think about in the first 40 turns, and a lot less judgement calls and balancing acts to make and perform. (which are all negatives in my book)

As gameplay wise, in a "perfectly played game" paying full price for any item at any time is ideally something to be avoided. Unless of course the needs of the current in-game situation justify it (and this is always a judgement call). But the entire gameplay mechanic based around the price of items has now been removed in CBM 1.7+, and Dominions in certainly a less enjoyable game without it as a result (or at least for me it is). And for those who don't think an entire gameplay mechanic has been removed by removing hammers, then I'm sorry to say you are simply either delusional, or you just don't understand how the game is really played, or at least played properly at higher levels.


ps. @ Executor - Good to see that at least one other person refuses to play in games without hammers by continuing to use CBM 1.6. Hope this game is a good one :)

pss. I likely won't be around to continue this debate, as I'm only home this weekend for a wedding, and will be gone again within 24 hours. But I haven't Dom-ranted in a long while, so couldn't miss this chance to get a fix :D

[Dimaz]

Sorry, but I returned a bit later than expected and I'll need another day or two to finalize my pretender.

[llamabeast]

Sorry for hijacking your game thread guys. :)

I can't compete with your word count Calahan since I'm writing on a phone. So I'll just say that while I agree that some choices are lost by removing hammers, I'd argue that at least as many are created by not forcing every nation to obtain E3. It would be easy to make a list of interesting decisions like you've done for additional pretender design choices opened up by removing that requirement. Note that this isn't because I "don't like thinking" during pretender design; far from it. It's because I want there to be more interesting options and choices to consider.

But anyway, I guess we are unlikely to agree on this. Maybe some sub-mod with hammers re-included should be created, because in many other ways CBM1.84 (and hopefully 1.9!) is far superior to CB1.6, so it seems like a bit of a case of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

[Dimaz]

Yep, another one like Masochist Edition for 1.7 :) Haven't seen any games started with it, unfortunately. Maybe the name was too pessimistic :).

[HorrorFend]

I don't have any experience modding so this maybe impossible for a number of reasons, but I throw it out there anyways...has anyone considered modding new items that also give the forge bonus? These items would require other magic paths, thus freeing a player from needing E3 on their pretender as well as allowing earth gems to be used for things other than hammers. In the early game players would still have an incentive to economize on gems before they acquired these forge bonus items so most of the strategy based around hammers would be preserved.

[Dimaz]

Unfortunately it's impossible with current modding tools.

[Aethyr]

So I just ran into a province with heavy calvary with six attacks (2x lance, sword, and hoof), Anyone else notice anything weird?

[Executor]

Well luckily the heavy cavalry I faced only had 2 attacks, but I saw heavy cavalry with six attacks in another game I subbed into as well. I though it was a CBM 1.8 mistake but I'm guessing it has something to do with the latest patch now.

Not sure how to fix it or if it even can be fixed.

[PriestyMan]

You need to download LLama's fixed versions of the mods. THis problem keeps coming up, because somehow everyone missed the thread about fixing them once the patch got added.

[Aethyr]

Right! :doh:

I did that for 1.8, but not for 1.6. Thanks PM.

[don_Pablo]

Delay please hosting for 24h
Thanks

[Mightypeon]

I am currently on vacation and have just found out that "Internet access" means a old dos PC without user access to USB ports that is shakingly connected to the Internet.
Oh, and the only internet cafee in a radius of 5 km just closed.
I can still send E-Mails and messages, but not get or send attachments.
My vacation is sceduled to go on for 2 weeks, so a sub will likely be needed.

I apologize again, I really thought that I would have working access to the Internet.

[Executor]

For whatever reason Llamaserver doesn't feel like hosting this game until all turns are in apparently, so at least you didn't stale (although I'm slowly starting to wish you would ;) ).

I'll try to find you a temporary sub until you come back Mightypeon.

[Executor]

Well all my sub attempts failed, the only thing to do now is to set Sauro AI sadly. I would have done it this turn but I wasn't around the past few days.
At least the game will run smoothly from now on.

[sansanjuan]

Greeting all,
I will be running Sauromatia until Mightypeon can retake the reins. Meanwhile please let me know via PM if there is anything I need to know regarding Sauromatia's relations with your pretender.

Mightypeon- please send me a Pm also if your internet is up.

-Sauromatia

[kasnavada]

I will no be there from friday night (GMT) to sunday afternoon (GMT time again). Could you delay hosting accordingly ?

Thanks.

[Executor]

The following turn will be delayed 24 hours, or so, on kasnavadas account.

Cheers.

[Mightypeon]

I am back now, but may require a slight delay to formalize my retaking. Many thanks sansanjuan for subbing in.

[sansanjuan]

I am back now, but may require a slight delay to formalize my retaking. Many thanks sansanjuan for subbing in.

My pleasure. Enjoy the game all!
-ssj

[Executor]

Welcome back Mightypeon, and thank you for subbing in ssj!

Mightypeon, please send me your email address in a PM so I can change it back.

[kasnavada]

Thanks for extending !

[Mightypeon]

I still did not receive my turn.

[Executor]

Mightypeon, you need to give me your email address so I can transfer the nation back to you.

[sansanjuan]

I still did not receive my turn.

You need to select resend turn in llamaserver



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Last updated at 01:50 GMT on Wednesday August 31st
Current time: 01:50 GMT
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[Executor]

Mightypeon, I can't keep delaying the game any more, I need to know where you stand?

[Mightypeon]

E-Mail address send to Executor.

[Executor]

Okay, changed it back to you and requested turn resend. You shold be getting the turn any moment now.

[Sil]

I am traveling back the the US as fall semester is starting and I'd like hosting to be delayed until something like 19:00 GMT on this Sunday. Normally I'd take my turn on my laptop in the airport but the damn thing's fan died and it started billowing smoke earlier today. I probably won't need the full time to sort things out.

[don_Pablo]

I'll be out of town till Sunday everning.
Delay please hosting of trn#20 if needed.

[Executor]

Sure guys, I'll delay turn 20 accordingly.

[Dimaz]

If anyone wants to sell a hammer or two please PM me.

[Sil]

So my dom3 cd is dead and I can't find any way to download the game legally or torrent (since my school network seems to block that) and input my serial key. Soooo, pretty much I think I'll need to be subbed out.

This wouldn't have been an issue if my laptop hadn't burnt out right before leaving. Or if I'd backed up the CD online but... :( Awesome start to the semester for me.

Apologies for the inconvenience.

[Executor]

Sorry to hear that Sil.

Okay, HorrorFend is effectively dead as of this turn so he is kindly taking over Atlantis.
Lolomo has offered to turn TC AI so that HorrorFend doesn't get a CD violation and stale. Now since Llamaserver is in a bit of a pickle that might take a while.

HorrorFend, do not send your turn in until Lolomo posts that he's turned TC AI. I've added an additional 24 hours to the turn but Llamaserver will probably auto postpone the game anyway.

[HorrorFend]

As Executor mentioned I'm taking over Atlantis, please PM me with any diplomatic relations you might already have with Atlantis. Hopefully we can get moving again shortly after Llamaserver is back.

[LoloMo]

Hi, it looks like TC is no longer on the list, I guess he is eliminated already.

[Mightypeon]

Greetings, Sauromatia is willing to provide other nations with Blood Slaves.
As of now we have 50 of those available, and are willing to part with them for mere money. Buy your access to Blood now!

[Hoplosternum]

Hi All,

I am afraid my new laptop has packed up (writing this from a borrowed PC) so I am unable to continue. My laptop has been failing to start properly for a week or two now and since Tuesday has simply refused to start in anything except safe mode (sometimes). As my laptop probably can't be fixed by myself it will take some time to send it back and get fixed or me to buy a new one (annoying as that one was only 6 months old....)

My power (niefelheim) has (had?) a fairly large empire but was weak in troops, mages and income :p All in all the worst possible combination :) And I was about to be crushed in a two front war :) Unfortunately since I found this out I have not been able to access the game or access this forum so I have not been able to build up even token forces to face Mictlan in the south.or do any diplomacy.

Sorry to drop out like this. And for the stales. All caused by my computer failing repeatedly - even the one last week. I hope it doesn't skew the game too much. While I suspect Dimaz (Mictlan) would have beaten me anyway I should have been able to hold him up a little.

Please either replace me or turn me AI.

[Executor]

Sorry to see another player go, this game seems to have a curse tho it appears to affect laptops more, I only had a systems crash a few days ago. :)

Okay Hoplo, thanks for giving me the heads up, I managed to postpone the turn this morning so only the one stale for now.

[ghoul31]

I'm taking ove Nief. But with 3 people attacking me,you should have just set this nation AI.

But I''l do what I can.

[Executor]

Thanks for taking over ghoul, even if it is a hopeless position.

[vargr]

I would need a six hrs extension (travelling), please.

[kasnavada]

I will not be there from tomorrow morning to... probably monday night (going to a friend's wedding). Could you extend ?

[kasnavada]

I'm back, and done my turn.

[Dimaz]

I need 24h extension on this turn (actually, what about switching to 48h?)

[Executor]

I guess it's about time. Hosting interval changed to 48 hours.

[Dimaz]

Sorry for the stale, we were celebrating my wife's birthday and I forgot to send the turn (it was already done). As always it happened at the most unfortunate situation.

[Executor]

I would have delayed the game had I noticed you were about to stale. Give me a heads up if you need me to watch the clock for you in the future.

Hope it was a fun birthday celebration!

[don_Pablo]

Hellheim offers a rare artifact for sale.
Buy Robe of Magi just for 60gems of any kind. ;)

Many nations can get RoW but a few can forge RoM.
Don't miss your chance to possess it. :)

[kasnavada]

For those that have missed the other post... I do not have the time to go on playing in this game. I'll have to leave permanently this week-end.

If you people know anyone that could sub me I'll be in your debt. Thanks in advance.

[Dimaz]

Please add 24h for this turn.

[Dimaz]

Hm, managed to do something in 15 mins, probably AI's turns are better...

[Executor]

Sorry Dimaz, just came home. I missed you request by an hour this morning.

[HorrorFend]

The Kings of Atlantis would like to offer their skills in forging items. Nearly any item is available (sorry no access to blood) so make a request.

Payment can be made in gems the amount of which will based on the gems needed to forge (although the type need not be the same) plus a small commission.

Let's make a deal.

[ghoul31]

you should set fomoria to AI

[Executor]

So, who's the one with all the stone sphere?

[Dimaz]

Hm, I have several almost from the beginning (since I found F1E1S1).

[don_Pablo]

Delay please current turn (49) for 26h.

I've never used stone spheres. Are they worth their gem-cost?

[Executor]

I will, may have to delay a bit more even. It seems Aethyr is having some computer problems and will be leaving us, at least for the time being, so I'll have to hunt for a sub.

[Executor]

From now on Scaramuccia will be stepping in as Abysia, welcome aboard.

[don_Pablo]

What about switching to 60/72h?

[Dimaz]

I agree.

[Mightypeon]

Me too.
I also have 2 other late games running.

[Executor]

Certainly, could use the extra time myself. I've already added 48 hours on this turn since I was out of town for two days so I'll switch to 72h on the next host as not to delay further, unless you'd all like some extra time.

[Executor]

A heads up, I may postpone this turn since there's some weird stuff going on with Llamasever. Seems to be out of space or something and turns keep getting bounced back.

[Dimaz]

I'll need 48h extension for this turn, I was really busy all the time and had only 5 minutes to look at the turn after hosting.

[Executor]

Sure, 48 hours added.

[Executor]

Sorry for all the delays, I'm moving in the next few days so needed to finish some stuff.

BTW, congrats Dimaz, didn't really expect you to move against me this turn.

Also, how much did you put up in that WoM Don Pablo? I put up 250 gems in it!

[Mightypeon]

I cannot say that I am in any way displeased by the current occurences.

[Mightypeon]

It would seem prudent to delay things until llamaserver ceases being borky.

[Executor]

Well I've added 24 hours but the games aren't delaying either, so let's just wait for Llama to reboot.

[Mightypeon]

I will likely need a 24 hour extension.

[Executor]

I'm just gonna put this out there since I'm pretty much done,
Dimaz for winner?

[Dimaz]

I agree :)

[don_Pablo]

I have to agree.
Due to lack of time and RL pressure I put off the hostilities vs Mictlan.
And it seems to be too late now.

Congratulatuions!

[Mightypeon]

I totally agree, I think Don_Pablo was the only one still in contention to be honest. I am mainly proud to have survived, and may have even had some influence on the games outcome!

[Executor]

I'll wait a bit more to see if anyone else has something to say before I declare the game finished.

In any case, congratulations Dimaz. I got a bit overconfident once I got 3 globals up and started using my conjuration 20% bonus site. Or to put it in another way, I don't think I ever failed so miserably.
After that second or third turn of the war where I lost a bunch of those SCs and half my sacreds I realized I was done. Didn't imagine you'd move against me without knowing what you were up against so I didn't even bother to put up all scripts and items I planned...

[Dimaz]

Heh, it was one of the rare cases where my carelessness played in my favor I think :) I was really worried that you'll conquer last remains of Sauro too fast so I had to act quickly after you attacked him. I wasn't sure if it was a good time for a full scale attack but I planned to advance more slowly and wait for reinforcements (I had about 1 ember/2 turns and 175-225 blood/turn at the time) while raiding everything with horrors.

[HorrorFend]

I'm happy to declare Dimaz the victor. Seems now only a grand alliance could could hope to prevent a complete victory (might be fun--but would likely not succeed anyways).

[Mightypeon]

Hah, it looks like my rampant begging for help from all possible sources did something!
Yay!
I was propably to carefull with my main army, after Kailasa attacked me I was like "that cant possibly be all of it, I am weak, but 60ish Yavanas are not enough! hHe must be goading me to gateway a bunch of crap on my head".
On a sidenote, did you know that Wendigos go fatter after battles against Scouts?
Some enterprising players could propably come up with "Wendigo feeding agreements" as new diplomatic proposals ;)

[Executor]

I was propably to carefull with my main army, after Kailasa attacked me I was like "that cant possibly be all of it, I am weak, but 60ish Yavanas are not enough! hHe must be goading me to gateway a bunch of crap on my head".


I was! I was goading you! Hoped to lure you out of the castles and kill you in one big bloody massacre of a turn. I know how Dimaz operates, moves from one target to the next without any pause, so it was just a matter of time before he moved against me. I imagined I had just enough time to kill you and prepare against him. And seeing how he didn't have many troops next to me gave me the impression he'd have to regroup a few turns to attack me, but I was wrong.

Never expected he had so many horror spammers. Didn't see him use them much otherwise I would have organized some defense against the horrors. Actually planned to get a commander and a few units for every province to circulate as an anti horror defense, but decided to do it a bit later.:( Wouldn't have prevented the horror spamming but it would have undermined the effort considerably.
I may have also expected he'd move against Helheim or Aby since they were weaker and closer than me but that was unlikely since we had no NAP.

Anyway, his timing was perfect. I started summoning large numbers of SCs and equipping them each turn. Mostly Grendels, Cyclops and Treants. Though I had Mehanical giants, Zmeys, Spectres and Shishies too.
Before Dimaz attacked me I had 3 globals up with a hell of a lot of gems, an somewhere near 200 gems income per turn. With that and the 20% conjuration bonus site I started using to summon Cyclops and Zmeys, It should have been my game.
Still have a dozen or so SCs in my possession although I lost twice that much in the last half a dozen turns.

I would have started with mass summoning all the SCs sooner, had hundred of gems just waiting to be used, but unfortunately an early war against TC and Hinnom (turn 14 I think?) at the same time cost me quite a bit research.

Regardless, not quite clear to me how I managed to lose this game so badly.

BTW, Don_Pablo, how much did you use to overcast my Well? I put up 230 gems to overcast yours.

[don_Pablo]

I may have also expected he'd move against Helheim or Aby since they were weaker and closer than me but that was unlikely since we had no NAP.

BTW, Don_Pablo, how much did you use to overcast my Well? I put up 230 gems to overcast yours.

I don't remember exactly, ~240 + 20% conjuration bonus site.

And once you had almost the half of the map, we were allied against you.
I expected you vanishing Sauro without any efforts and promising a long and grim war for the rest of us.
That's why I was absolutely shocked by your quick fall.

[Dimaz]

I was surprised as well. When the fall of Ermor was near, I already planned to quickly strike against monkeys, as Executor predicted. So I assembled 2 new armies, moving some of the SCs from Ermor front before finishing the war there (western army), and summoning some more in the cap (southern). Fortunately the jags are still useful with proper buffs even in that stage of the game, so my main concern was to prepare 3 sets of army buffers and 2-3 support SCs in each army (I had enough forts and money from constant expanding to quickly produce enough jags at any place of my empire). The third army was planned to appear with gatewayed soldiers from Ermor front and 3rd set of buffers, but unfortunately I lost too much during the last storm so I had to delay it somewhat. In the end I just teleported it to the sieged castle to help defend it (the buffers were already there).
I think the main mistake Executor made was to allow me to BH in all my provs without much interference almost till the end. In fact, in the end, when he had less resources but started to actively cripple my blood income, I went down to 60 or so slaves/turn from peak of 200+. So I was able to sac 5 slaves in most of my castles + send 9 or so lesser horrors each turn + summon bat spammers. I made some tests and 8 big Horrors were enough to take down single Treeant equipped as Executor's. But mainly I used them as raiders. Buffed jags + SCs were even more successful than I thought, so I moved through his lands like a hot knife through butter. And, after Blood-9, it became sort of one-sided game, with banishing anything worth banishing with 10+ sun priest parties.
Executor, now I'm satisfied. My fall in Timewarp is revenged :) (It was a CBM 1.5 (with gemgens) game where I controlled about half of 250 prov map as LA Ctis and still had to surrender due to his gemgen-fuelled globals and some mistakes).

[Executor]

I should have attacked your blood hunters first, don't know why I never did. A few turns of GR and earth attacks would have done it.
Frankly, I was half convinced you couldn't touch me and I'd just roll over you with those two armies of mine, merging them at your capital later...

Timewarp was crazy, those turns easily took several hours each. Just transferring the pearls from clams took like an hour! Too big a map for gemgens.
In the end, I don't think I could have killed you by any conventional means. And those armageddons proved even better than I expected once I tested them.

But something I was really looking forward to was fighting you in World of Symmetry! Unfortunately had to drop both games I was in atm and Psycho didn't have enough time to sub both of them for me.

[Mightypeon]

Well, my own game had the following issues:
-It was the first game MP I actually designed a pretender for, so noob errors happen. For example, choosing heat 3 to get more points was a rather dumb idea for Sauromatia, especially with Hinnom, Abyssia, Lanka, Kailasa and Mictlan on the map. Cold 3 may have actually been viable though. Still, I am proclaiming myself to be the last noob standing.
-I got a stale that significantly reduced my early expansion
-I then participated in a first 2 then 3 way war against Lanka, but failed to get a proper defense agreement with Fomoria, because I confused flags and thought they were Ermor
-Fomoria, which had roughly twice of my size, then attacked me, while I did manage to defend my territory, I was unable to comitt to any offensive into his areas. I did suffer significant losses due to failing to properly set up a reverse communion against Fomor by the way, which ensures that I did not repeat this mistake in any other game.
I also learned some things about dealing with flying early Raiders (his Fomor Kings), set up a "pseudo blood hunt" province, make sure that they see it, and prepare a funny suprise for them in that province. I felt really smart after that worked.
-Fomoria suffered some significant exhaustion fighting me when executor attacked them and gobbled them up very quickly.
-Then Executor came for me, and my priorities were:
--Counterraid him a bit with arouse hunger
--defend castles with bone demons and my little immortal annoyance, hopefull suprise him with 3 Wendigos and a GoR Prophet daughter of Typhoon, which of course is not much, but may have been more than he was ready to attribute to me.
--maintain my army as an army in being, so that that the resources he has there are not available somewhere else. I am not sure that the forces he had in my area (had it been around twice the number I would have thought that Executor was not goading) would have made a difference, since there actually only was a single "SC" (if you call a golem that) with them. They could have certainly been used to fight off horrors though.
--mention my not insignificant gem income to other people, I think it worked with Helheim and Mictlan cooperating to some extent against Executor, while Abysia actually attacked me. To my suprise, Abyssias army in my territorry was propably weaker then mine.

What I did well was aggressivly using my mages in battles as opposed to research during my war of survival against Fomor, my research got bunked of course (I only got to construction 6 in turn 50 or so), but I stayed alive, which is better than having Construction 6 and being dead.