Illwinter's next project

[Johan K]

I have now put together a web page with a little information on our next game. It can be found on the Illwinter page here:
http://www.illwinter.com

The game is Conquest of Elysium 3. For those that haven't tried it, it's another fantasy strategy game, but simpler and much quicker than Dominions.

So that's what we are working on now!

Cheers,
Johan K
(Developer, Illwinter Game Design)

[Gandalf Parker]

THANK YOU for posting this!

[Louist]

I'm very excited, both to hear that Illwinter is working on a new title, AND that it's CoE3!

[Gregstrom]

One word: Woohoo!

[Gandalf Parker]

The production page should mention also that Conquest of Elysium 2 is a free download from Shrapnel in case someone wants to try it out

[Johan K]

The production page should mention also that Conquest of Elysium 2 is a free download from Shrapnel in case someone wants to try it out

Well, I don't want to scare anyone away from CoE3. We are way better at making games now than we were when CoE2 was made and I believe CoE3 already is much better than its predecessor.

[Valerius]

Thanks for the update! After all this time I still enjoy Dominions but having a faster playing game sounds like a fun complement (the only thing I don't like about Dominions is the number of units you have to manage in the late game). And I'm very happy that it supports MP as Dominions has gotten me hooked on that.

Do you plan on having a similar level of modding support as for D3 (perhaps not initially but down the line)?

And, now that it's been announced, does that mean a tentative 2012 launch date? :)

[quantum_mechani]

As someone who considers CoE an excellent game (and actually better than Dominions for single player) I can only say: I can't wait.

[thejeff]

The headline says, somewhat confusingly
"Conquest of Elysium 3 is in development right now (2012-08-09)."

I take it that's supposed to be 2011, not a hint at a release date or something.


I assume that you're still developing on Linux and CoE3 will be released for it?


Very interesting news. I played around with CoE2 a couple years ago and wasn't all that impressed. That said, I have faith. When can we pre-order?

[Johan K]

The headline says, somewhat confusingly
"Conquest of Elysium 3 is in development right now (2012-08-09)."

I take it that's supposed to be 2011, not a hint at a release date or something.

Correct, that's a typo. I sure hope it will be finished much sooner than that date.

[WraithLord]

Thank you JK for posting this. I greatly enjoyed CoE2 so I'm really looking forward to CoE3.

I assume it would be published by Shrapnel right?
Oh and a pre-order discount would be nice ;)

[Bullock]

I don t know at all this COE, but i ll give it a try :)
Thx for the info.

[brxbrx]

The production page should mention also that Conquest of Elysium 2 is a free download from Shrapnel in case someone wants to try it out

Well, I don't want to scare anyone away from CoE3. We are way better at making games now than we were when CoE2 was made and I believe CoE3 already is much better than its predecessor.
Yeah. I looooooooove D3 but when playing CoE2 I couldn't see a thing. I'm very excited to hear of this, and look forward to CoE3. Maybe I'm just biased because Dominions is so great, but the CoE3 info from the page looks very promising.
Thank you for making excellent games.

Also, will the cosmology be the same as with Dominions (I.E. celestial spheres, the Void, the various Hells- and perhaps the nations themselves)?

[Foodstamp]

YAY! Will it support modding? :)

[Stretch]

Great news! I can't wait to see it.

[DonCorazon]

Awesome....can't wait. Thanks!

[Edi]

Woohoo!

Great news! I love CoE2, but despite its brilliance, it's a little too dated to be taken in anything but small doses. A new version will be most welcome!

[Johan K]

There is no modding support in CoE3 right now. It will probably be added, but maybe not until after it has been released.

The cosmology will be similar to Dominions, at least the void and horrors will make it into CoE3. Nations are not the same though. CoE is more about a powerful character like the necromancer, he does not rule a large nation like the pretender gods in Dominions.

[WraithLord]

SP only, right?

Do you have a dev log, like for Dominions?

Edit: will you release a demo?

[Joelz]

While CoE2 was rather confusing with the interface at times, this seems very interesting. Looking forward to it :)

SP only, right?

* Hotseat and network support for multiplayer games.
Straight from the features.

[WraithLord]

Silly me, I somehow missed that.

That's just awesome!!!

I wonder if it would have PBEM as well, as in allow one to play at his leisure rather than engage in long blitzes (what would be impossible for a proud father of two :) )

[quantum_mechani]

Hmm, I presume the turn structure would follow the CoE format rather than the Dominions one?

[Yucky]

Awesome!

[Spendios]

I'm a bit dissapointed :(

[NTJedi]

Knowing Dominions_4 was not arriving this is the next best thing. All the features look great!
Here are some ideas, take any you wish:

The two games below are stable, successful and fun
fantasy TBS games with great strategy plus active
forum communities. Also their editors are powerful and easy to use.
A) Heroes_3 Complete
B) Age_of_Wonders_ShadowMagic

Second here are some gaming features which will
increase the success and interest of your future game:
1} Random Game Generator = Already exists!! Hooray!
2} Multiplayer option = Already exists!! Hooray!
3} Map Editor = Allowing editing of monsters, items,
terrain, and custom timed events. The best TBS map editors I have found
are from the two games above... perhaps they can provide ideas.
4} Variation for Size of Maps = Huge maps available as an option
for stronger systems. Could you make use of the memory usage
available from the 64-Bit Operating Systems??
5} Multiple Map Levels = Allows dungeon type maps OR
multiple worlds type maps
(Cavern realm, Shadow Realm, Myrror Realm, Underwater realm)
6} Custom AI Scripting Option = Allows the community
to create unique AI personalities thus anytime someone
new to the community complains about the AI everyone
can respond with "Create some scripts to generate new
and different AI behaviors."
7} Multiple Random AI Personalities = Prevents the
human player from being able to predict what the AI
will be doing during a game. The custom AI scripts
created can be included when the game is randomly
selecting an AI script. Any AI personality script
should have the option of being disabled in case it's
bugged.
8} Random Item Formula = Allows items within the game
to be more unique and thus increases replay value.
Examples = Variables A, B and C are randomly selected
from separate lists.
Kings(A) Poisonous(B) Axe(item) of Death(C)
Ice(B) Knife(item)
Dukes(A) Helm(item) of Minds(C)
Fire(B) Boots(item) of Speed(C)

Using a random item formula means each new game will have new unique items!
Adding one new variable greatly increases the number of possible items.

[brxbrx]

I'm a bit dissapointed :(

Wanna share why?

[kasnavada]

Ohhhhhh !

Is that a spellbook I see with the witch ?

[Foodstamp]

I'm a bit dissapointed :(

Wanna share why?

Probably because it is not Dominions 4 ;).

[WraithLord]

Will it have a soundtrack?- Dråm maybe?

[Johan K]

SP only, right?

Do you have a dev log, like for Dominions?

Edit: will you release a demo?

When don't have a public dev log yet, but I might make something like that available. Maybe just a change log from git (the revision control system we use).

Demo, I don't know. If we have time to make one, might happen after release, we'll see.

[Johan K]

Will it have a soundtrack?- Dråm maybe?

We haven't asked them yet. But if they are willing and Illwinter has the money required, then we might get some music from Dråm or Falsobordone. I hope we get some music :smirk:

[WraithLord]

Excellent :up:
I love their music and hope either one will make it to the game.

That medieval music has real charm and both are great performers.
I recall Dom-III sound track made a great impression on me. At one point I even made a piano arrangement to one of the tracks (the como poden one IIRC) :)

[Spendios]

I'm a bit dissapointed :(

Wanna share why?

I hope that it will be more than "Dominions light" or "Heroes of M&M 3 10 years later"

[brxbrx]

Will it have a soundtrack?- Dråm maybe?

We haven't asked them yet. But if they are willing and Illwinter has the money required, then we might get some music from Dråm or Falsobordone. I hope we get some music :smirk:

I don't particularly care about the music, but I'm confidant many of us would be eager and willing to send donations your way.

[Doo]

Brilliant!

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=45926

[Tecnócrata]

I have to curb my enthusiasm until seen modding possibilities. Modding is something I need on every game. Heavy modding.

[Gandalf Parker]

I don't particularly care about the music, but I'm confidant many of us would be eager and willing to send donations your way.
Or maybe just take pre-orders. I know Im in for at least one copy.

[Foodstamp]

I'm in as well. I would love to be able to add new classes etc, but I will buy the game either way.

[BesucherXia]

Can't wait to buy it. But wait... will there be any chance since I am now living in China?

[WraithLord]

I will definitely pre-order. I trust IWs good taste, creativity and long term support for their games. I wish there were more game devs that care so much about content rather than quick sell with awesome GFX and broken games (Elemental - I'm looking at you!).

[Korwin]

Will preorder too, if possible.

[Snoddasmannen]

Oh me too for sure, even though I'll never have time to play it. "Just shut up and take my money" - as the saying goes :)

[LDiCesare]

I finally tried CoE2. It's a neat game, but I hope the 3 will have a much better interface. Stuff like seeing that your commander is insane on the map, a better battle display (at least see how many hit points a unit has, like in dom if you click on the unit to inspect it during the battle), explanations of the icons (again, dom does that when displaying units).
And most importantly a minimap or map zooming. It's a real pain to know where you are in CoE2, and big maps are definitely out of the question without a map navigation tool.

[nordlys]

CoE could really benefit from a proper tactical combat MoM-style. With its small, dozen-units-per-army scale it's, like, mandatory. And then it would succeed where Elemental failed.

[Foodstamp]

CoE could really benefit from a proper tactical combat MoM-style. With its small, dozen-units-per-army scale it's, like, mandatory. And then it would succeed where Elemental failed.

I could place a chimp in front of a typewriter and the end result would be a better computer game than Elemental.

[Ballbarian]

Great news JK! Looking forward to it. :)

[ronjon]

nevermind

[Tecnócrata]

I could place a chimp in front of a typewriter and the end result would be a better computer game than Elemental.

Man, this must be the worst botch since MOO3. Bad gameplay and worst bugs.

[Edi]

I finally tried CoE2. It's a neat game, but I hope the 3 will have a much better interface. Stuff like seeing that your commander is insane on the map, a better battle display (at least see how many hit points a unit has, like in dom if you click on the unit to inspect it during the battle), explanations of the icons (again, dom does that when displaying units).
And most importantly a minimap or map zooming. It's a real pain to know where you are in CoE2, and big maps are definitely out of the question without a map navigation tool.

Aside from the minimap, all of that is currently there already.

[Gandalf Parker]

Questions about the new project will work much better if they are comparisons to CoE2 than comparisons with Dom3. The only Dom3isms I see so far in CoE3 are some imports of graphics.

[brxbrx]

Questions about the new project will work much better if they are comparisons to CoE2 than comparisons with Dom3. The only Dom3isms I see so far in CoE3 are some imports of graphics.
Not so. The game world will also have similarities, and to people like me, that's the most important part!


The cosmology will be similar to Dominions, at least the void and horrors will make it into CoE3. Nations are not the same though. CoE is more about a powerful character like the necromancer, he does not rule a large nation like the pretender gods in Dominions.

[Gandalf Parker]

Like I said, most of what Im seeing so far are imports of units and some nations. But most of the game play so far is more like CoE2 than Dom3. Maybe when we try some network play we will see more Dom3isms

[Edi]

The cosmology may be similar, but the game mechanics and gameplay are obviously much closer to CoE2.

It can safely be said that Dominions had a lot of CoE2 imports and CoE3 has a lot of Dominions imports, but Gandalf is correct about the way one should go about the comparisons.

[LDiCesare]

Thanks Edi for the hints on what to expect.
Map zooming or minimap would help because in CoE2, when you have sent most of your troops to take out that last enemy, you may very well not see that one of his scouts is taking out all of your villages way back because you'd have to move with the arrow keys for a long time every turn, just to see if something isn't happening in your backyard. A minimap/zoom would avoid that problem, which is why I think it would be important. It would also help navigation a lot.
Also, commander move and selection use the same button. So, if you left click on the commander you want to move and the currently selected commander is just next to him, you move that guy instead. This really sucks. It would be much better to left-click for select, right-click for move, for instance.

[sector24]

I would really love to see a demo before I buy if that is an option. Dominions 3 is one of the best games ever made and CoE2 is a lot of fun too, but if the game is going to retail for $50 or $60 then I'm going to want to try it first. That's just the way mama raised her boy. ;)

[Edi]

LDiCesare:

Map zooming exists in the game. It works by the mouse scroll wheel and the Page Up (in) and Page Down (out) keys. On an enormous map (biggest in the game), maximally zoomed out view covers one quarter of the map.

One key difference between CoE3 and Dominions is that units do not cost upkeep (that I have seen anyway), so building garrisons is actually a viable option. It is even necessary and unavoidable to an extent, since roaming independent monsters (and in the instance of certain events, hordes of special monsters too) will make mincemeat of your economy if your back country is unguarded.

As far as commander selection is concerned, CoE3 uses more of a Dom3 convention. Commanders and squares are selected by right-clicking on them and movement is by left-click.

The entire interface is going to be very familiar to anyone who has played Dominions and will not take a long time to learn. Especially once the manual is done.

[Edi]

An addition to above: Once a square with commanders has been selected, left-clicking a different commander will make that commander active, but as long as GUI opacity is at maximum, it should not cause movement problems. Especially if you have centered the view on the square, because the commander box is off to the side.

[LDiCesare]

Thanks for your answers Edi. That's all good to know.
It's nice to see Illwinter's new project advancing and that they learnt from their previous games to make this one better.

[sidhos]

I couldn't find the download for CoE2 at the website. Maybe they have removed it?

[Gandalf Parker]

Its on Shrapnels front page. :)

But here is a link to a page with all of their free games
http://www.shrapnelgames.com/Our_Games/Free_Games.html

[sidhos]

Thanks Gandalf.

[Mimed]

Have you guys thought about releasing your games on Steam? If so why haven't you? I'm sure your games would reach a whole new audience that doesn't know they exist... no offense to the marketing guys ;)

I don't remember how I found out about Dom3 but I feel lucky that I did.

[Gandalf Parker]

Steam has been discussed often. Both here, and in staff forum.
It has its pros and cons but IIRC it does not meet the criteria for Indie support that Shrapnel seeks.

[Finalgenesis]

Yes it was pure luck that I found Dom 3, I'm positive there's a large population of folks out there who would love it but simple have not heard of it.

Though I'm sure there's some serious Cons with Steam.

[brxbrx]

I think Steam would be fantastic for Shrapnel Games in general, though I seem to recall someone from Shrapnel Games posting an essay about pricing of digital purchases and how it was bad or something.
Thing is, releasing Dom III on Steam would bring in an enormous influx of players, and probably also money.

[Gandalf Parker]

Oh gee, why wasnt that considered? Sorry. Im not usually sarcastic.

But Steam has been discussed for as long as Steam has existed. So has Stardock, Tor, Torrent, and the MS distribution systems. Keep in mind that most of the systems are not just "add on". To make them work for the companies involved, they tend to have to go all one way or the other. Either DD or hard copy. Either mass produce, or on demand. Either marketing or publicity.

[brxbrx]

Oh gee, why wasnt that considered? Sorry. Im not usually sarcastic.

But Steam has been discussed for as long as Steam has existed. So has Stardock, Tor, Torrent, and the MS distribution systems. Keep in mind that most of the systems are not just "add on". To make them work for the companies involved, they tend to have to go all one way or the other. Either DD or hard copy. Either mass produce, or on demand. Either marketing or publicity.
Where did I imply that my thoughts were new or original? Someone mentioned Steam, and I said it would be a good idea. No need to be snippy.

[Gandalf Parker]

True. Sorry about that.
Maybe it should be in the FAQ file.

Im sure Steam will again be considered for the new game. But I wouldnt hold my breath for it

[Foodstamp]

I am sure a lot of effort went into the price, marketing and distribution of Dominions, but the business guy in me thinks the price was too high, the marketing not enough (not in money spent, but avenue), and the distribution dated.

I think it could have made more money on Steam/Impulse/GOG by cutting out Shrapnel, charging $19.99 and including the owner's manual in PDF. As far as marketing goes, the game is niche and most of the sites have built in marketing via "search for games like this one" or being able to list by genre. Once game started getting 5 stars or the equivalent, it could have been a huge indy money maker.

P.S. I know they have said in the past that they did the numbers and they felt it would have been less profitable; I still disagree.

[Stagger Lee]

I am sure a lot of effort went into the price, marketing and distribution of Dominions, but the business guy in me thinks the price was too high, the marketing not enough (not in money spent, but avenue), and the distribution dated.

I think it could have made more money on Steam/Impulse/GOG by cutting out Shrapnel, charging $19.99 and including the owner's manual in PDF. As far as marketing goes, the game is niche and most of the sites have built in marketing via "search for games like this one" or being able to list by genre. Once game started getting 5 stars or the equivalent, it could have been a huge indy money maker.

P.S. I know they have said in the past that they did the numbers and they felt it would have been less profitable; I still disagree.

+1

I have looked for turn based strategy games since the glory days of MOO & MOM. I haven't played them all, but I generally find the good ones (HOMM up to 3, Disciples up to 2, GalCiv, Alpha Centauri & the Civs, a few others), and the bad (all too many). I found this game because an old genesis game that I loved, Master of Monsters (my other MOM), had been through a truly epic fail of a sequel, and every now and then I look for news about that game to see if a decent remake will ever be made. In all of my gaming experience, that was the only place I had ever seen the word "Firbolg". I always assumed it was a misspelling of some obscure legend (there were plenty in that game), so about two years ago I googled firbolg and found the celtic mythologies connected to the word. And something curious. A turn based strategy game with firbolgs! I lurked, dl'd the demo, and am now an upstanding member of the community. :p

What I'm saying is, I have no idea how I would have found this game otherwise.

[Gandalf Parker]

There is no marketing. Marketing involves money laid out ahead of the game. That has to be paid back before the devs see any profit. Same with shelfware, or other distribs. That is not the Shrapnel way (started by a dev for devs). There is no major contract, development pay, marketing, shelfware to have to pay back. Here its publicity and distro, not the marketing and shelfware model.

The publicity does pretty good. There isnt a game site that doesnt list Dom3 and the press releases show up instantly on the net. Pretty good for free. And people do hear about it that way. Standard marketing would be laughed at unless (like is forced in other game companies) it went 3D and major sound bytes. Sure more money could be made if the big-buis game was played but no one is interested in it

And the download is regretted enough without going steam too. Too expensive to maintain

[brxbrx]

A Steam sale can do wonders for a game's popularity.

People think "Why not? Sounds somewhat interesting, and it's very affordable. Why miss the opportunity?"
That's certainly influenced some of my purchases, the only such one I regret being Settlers 7.

[Gandalf Parker]

Yes it could.
But its too much overhead to maintain steam. Its almost too much overhead to maintain direct download. Thats why most places only choose one form or another

[Deathblob]

There is no marketing.

Well what are all those "I want my Dominions 3" ads, then?

[Foodstamp]

There is no marketing.

Well what are all those "I want my Dominions 3" ads, then?

Customer testimonies.

[Gandalf Parker]

There is no marketing.

Well what are all those "I want my Dominions 3" ads, then?
You will see those in other places also. (anywhere that they are free)

[Finalgenesis]

I've always assume that low game exposure is intentional, maybe in the vein of staying off the beaten path and the like. The game really is HARD to find out about, I can guarantee that the exposure of dom 3 to it's potential customer base is very low.

[S.R. Krol]

Bear in mind the age of Dominions 3. The vast majority of games are discovered during their initial release period, when the reviews are out and folks are talking about the game on blogs, et cetera. In this regard Dominions 3 was no different. It's much quieter now because it's been what, six years since release? And actually when you consider you can find multiplayer games going on today on a majority of major gaming forums there is still exposure on a daily basis in some spots. How many other games from 2005 can say that?

[Gandalf Parker]

I do like that aspect of it. The many other forums have picked up where this one has dropped out.

I also love that if you google it, you are hard pressed to find any posts against it. Another of "how many games can you say that about"

Something else to consider, just as players.....
advertising might bring in more players but would you really want that? Now the players find out about it from serious gaming newsgroups and gaming sites.

[Valerius]

I prefer the Shrapnel or GOG model to Steam. No, I don't pirate software, I just don't like the idea of having to install third party software in order to activate/run a game. I wouldn't care if it were also offered on Steam, Impulse, etc, but would prefer that to not be the only option.

You can argue back and forth as to whether this would result in greater sales/profit and I don't know what the result would be. But even if the result were greater sales I'm not sure why that would matter to me as a player. Sure, if I like IW games (and right now I'm not sure if I like their games or like Dominions - COE3 will help answer that for me) then it's in my interest that the game sells well enough to encourage future development. But they seem content enough with the sales of D3 that they are working on another game, so that doesn't seem to be an issue (and I've always liked the fact that attempting to bludgeon them with "if you want to make more money you'll do so and so" doesn't get far). As has been mentioned, there's still plenty of MP games going on six years after release so I don't see a problem there either. The only other advantage of having more players that I can think of is you might have more mod content. That's not a big deal for me either but for some people that would be a benefit and is really the main advantage I can think of from a player's perspective.

[Gandalf Parker]

More mods? :)
Im having trouble trying them all now and keeping track of which ones I like.

More maps maybe. I think we could use more maps. But there is YAMG (yet another MapGen) in the works which might help

[rdonj]

One of the Outcasts wanted me to mention that Kohan is available on steam now.

Personally I don't care at all for this argument though and I'm not sure why we're going on about steam/digital download/marketing in this thread :(

[DrPraetorious]

I much prefer the indie model. I'm in the amusingly-named "Closed Public Beta" for Heroes VI, and I'm afraid they're going to push the game out before it's ready, which is a shame because I've been a fan of the series since Kings Bounty back in the day, and the fundamentals for Heroes VI are actually quite solid.

Speaking of which... there will be a Beta for CoE3, no?

Mods would be fantastic, especially as it appears (just by glancing at the screenshots) the art can be recycled from Dom3 mods? Amos generated enough zany skull monsters and cultists to add a dozen more nations.

[Gandalf Parker]

Beta is in progress now.
But it might depend on your definition. It's playable but doesnt have some parts incorporated fully yet

[Korwin]

I only found out about Dom3 last year. But - at least in my case - availability on steam would'nt have changed that.
So if I am able to download it, its good enough for me (or if I'm able to Transfer the Game - like Dom3 - with an stick. Kapput DVD drive...).

[JonBrave]

There is no marketing.

Well what are all those "I want my Dominions 3" ads, then?

Where's the one gone with the babe? Was she a genuine potential purchaser? Trade Descriptions Act, you know...

[JepSan]

I'm really thrilled to hear about this. I've been playing a lot of Dom3 until about a year ago. Best game I ever layed my hands on. Now I just dropped by to check if anything new and exiting was coming up from the IW team. And behold... CoE III!

I'd love to pre-order, pre-purchase, download a beta version or whatever - anything really. So - when can we pursuade you guys to accept our money? :)

[Edi]

Glad to see you're enthusiastic about it. :)

The game is still in beta and under development, with lots of things on the TODO list, but I'm sure Johan and Kristoffer will make some sort of statement on that particular issue when it's more complete.

[Doo]

I'm on board for pre-order.

If it happens.

I'll write a haiku about my feelings:

Love Dominions 3
Really Love Dominions 3
Can't Wait, Head Explode

Thats a crap haiku
I wait without explosion
Still, daily I look

:)

[Edi]

Well, you can view the progress page here:
http://jaffa.illwinter.com/coe3/coe3progress.html

That should give you an idea. Currently the game is playable, but incomplete and a lot of content is still missing. A portion of graphics needs an upgrade from the CoE2 era graphics. But on the whole things are progressing well.

:)

[PashaDawg]

Wheeeee! Excellent. :)

[ioticus]

I've got the progress page set to auto refresh. The game is looking fantastic. My most anticipated game of this year. I've never been much of a MP gamer and I hope it provides a single player experience that I didn't get with Dom3.

[Doo]

Looking forward to COE 3 getting its own sub-forum, thats when I know it will be close to release.

[Edi]

I've got the progress page set to auto refresh. The game is looking fantastic. My most anticipated game of this year. I've never been much of a MP gamer and I hope it provides a single player experience that I didn't get with Dom3.
CoE3 does lend itself better to SP gaming than Dominions in a number of respects.

The variation is quite amazing so far and set to get better. The AI does have its limitations, but if you crank the difficulty up a few levels, you'll be in for a challenge.

The ten different AI difficulty levels offer quite a lot in terms of choice and the strategies usable in the game are less complex than in Dominions, meaning that the AI is not as hampered against a human. It does still have a handicap in terms of decision making, but the human choices are more limited than in Dominions and much more subject to random luck (starting spells, starting position, starting independent garrisons on important resources etc.)

If you crank the difficulty up to maximum, the most likely outcome is that the AI will simply roll over you even if you use every advantage you can wring out of the options you have and if you have a good start, that may be enough. Just. At least the ten levels offer much more granularity of choices than the five levels in Dom3.

[ioticus]

I've got the progress page set to auto refresh. The game is looking fantastic. My most anticipated game of this year. I've never been much of a MP gamer and I hope it provides a single player experience that I didn't get with Dom3.


The ten different AI difficulty levels offer quite a lot in terms of choice and the strategies usable in the game are less complex than in Dominions, meaning that the AI is not as hampered against a human. It does still have a handicap in terms of decision making, but the human choices are more limited than in Dominions and much more subject to random luck (starting spells, starting position, starting independent garrisons on important resources etc.)

If you crank the difficulty up to maximum, the most likely outcome is that the AI will simply roll over you even if you use every advantage you can wring out of the options you have and if you have a good start, that may be enough. Just. At least the ten levels offer much more granularity of choices than the five levels in Dom3.

10 AI levels, wow, I can't think of another computer game with 10 AI levels. I'd like to know how the different levels differ in terms of bonuses the AI receives, does it "think" better, etc. I always like to play at the highest level the AI gets no advantages over me. If I'm challenged by that I will be very happy.

[Edi]

As far as I know, the AI decision making is the same regardless of level, but the amount of bonus or handicap varies. The lowest level of AI gets a -25% handicap on gold, iron and special resources and is named Piss Boy. The highest level of AI gets a 500% bonus and is ranked Emperor.

Scarcity or abundance of resources is the main determining factor in CoE3 on whether you will prosper or not. Start locations are random and you can get really lucky or unlucky with them, so playing against AI that gets some bonuses is advisable. The default AI gets a 25% bonus, but I make a point of playing against AIs that get 50% or more bonuses.

The reason being that the AI can't always factor in everything when picking its fights, which can lead to really lopsided results sometimes. Also, more resources allows the AI to garrison its citadels. IF you lose all citadels, you're eliminated, so that's kind of important.

[getter77]

Wow, I've been away from here for far too long as life has been pretty rough, but imagine my surprise to see CoE III well in the works! Talk about a cheerful spot in the day...

Definitely added to my ever-growing to-buy list, as I pretty well trust Illwinter to deliver in spades not unlike DoM III.

On the digital distro front, meh---go for the "simple" ones first like GoG, Gamersgate(HUGE in Europe), Desura, maybe Indievania---THEN see about the more complicated ones like Steam and to a lesser extent Impulse. Though I don't really know about Impulse anymore post-Gamestop buyout from Stardock.

Pretty sure everything will work out though.

[Foodstamp]

I second using GoG for digital distribution :).

[brxbrx]

Use Steam. Get some real exposure.

[Deathblob]

I third GoG.

[LoloMo]

Fourth on GoG!

[elmokki]

Whatever you use for distribution make it easy to use and make sure the price will be 30 euros or so at most.

As much as I adore GoG, Steam is probably the best platform. Impulse and Gamersgate aren't terrible per se, but Steam has so many more users.

[Doo]

As for Steam check out:

Avadon (http://store.steampowered.com/app/112100/)

Spiderweb software have been making quality RPG games for years and their latest is on Steam. I highly recommend it.

I put this here to show that Steam isn't just for games with the latest graphics mindblow or triple A titles.

[Gandalf Parker]

The Progress page has almost frequent changes
http://jaffa.illwinter.com/coe3/coe3progress.html

And Screen Shots have been added to the Illwinter CoE3 page
http://www.illwinter.com/coe3/screenshots.html

[Doo]

The updated screenshots look great.

[NTJedi]

I hope we have the option for really large maps. I like playing games where it feels like a world instead of an island.

[Gandalf Parker]

You know Ive done my part for that.
I think you will be quite satisfied. The maximum size map is only possible thru command switches. But its beyond even my lust for large maps. Johan is again wondering why anyone would even want to play on a map so large :)

[brxbrx]

Playing a small map can be interesting too. Maybe elysium can be just a small island with strategic or spiritual value, like the Dardanelles or Jerusalem respectively (though this aren't islands, but you know what I mean, right)?

[Gandalf Parker]

Yes that is already in the game also.
As far as Island; the maps are always water surrounded. So you are always playing with either an island or a continent.

Im sure there will be small map games also (I tend to get outvoted in my love of big maps). But maybe not as much as Dom3s games. There are nations which would rule small maps while other nations would be almost impossible to win with (even more than Dom3 does)

[Endoperez]

I'm pretty sure "Beholder" name is not available for use without negotiating with Wizards of the Coast.
"They are one of the few classic Dungeons & Dragons monsters that Wizards of the Coast claims as Product Identity.[1]" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beholder)

I understand it's legal to have an eye-monster that casts spell, as long as you don't call it a Beholder.

[Foodstamp]

I'm pretty sure "Beholder" name is not available for use without negotiating with Wizards of the Coast.
"They are one of the few classic Dungeons & Dragons monsters that Wizards of the Coast claims as Product Identity.[1]" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beholder)

I understand it's legal to have an eye-monster that casts spell, as long as you don't call it a Beholder.

Age of Wonders has beholders; check out the level 3 unit on this page:

http://aow.heavengames.com/unitdata/generated/azracs_ts.html

[Gandalf Parker]

They might have asked.
But good point.

[brxbrx]

I'm pretty sure "Beholder" name is not available for use without negotiating with Wizards of the Coast.
"They are one of the few classic Dungeons & Dragons monsters that Wizards of the Coast claims as Product Identity.[1]" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beholder)

I understand it's legal to have an eye-monster that casts spell, as long as you don't call it a Beholder.

Age of Wonders has beholders; check out the level 3 unit on this page:

http://aow.heavengames.com/unitdata/generated/azracs_ts.html

I believe that HoMMIII also has a beholder unit. You need to upgrade it from Evil Eye.

[Edi]

I'm pretty sure "Beholder" name is not available for use without negotiating with Wizards of the Coast.
"They are one of the few classic Dungeons & Dragons monsters that Wizards of the Coast claims as Product Identity.[1]" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beholder)

I understand it's legal to have an eye-monster that casts spell, as long as you don't call it a Beholder.

Age of Wonders has beholders; check out the level 3 unit on this page:

http://aow.heavengames.com/unitdata/generated/azracs_ts.html

I believe that HoMMIII also has a beholder unit. You need to upgrade it from Evil Eye.

No, you upgrade beholders to Evil Eye in HoMM3.

Beholders also appear in the Might and Magic games, at least in M&M6, which is contemporaneous with HoMM3 in terms of the timeline.

AoW has indeed got beholders.

[brxbrx]

Well, the point's the same. Beholders are present in HoMMIII.

[Corinthian]

I'm pretty sure "Beholder" name is not available for use without negotiating with Wizards of the Coast.
"They are one of the few classic Dungeons & Dragons monsters that Wizards of the Coast claims as Product Identity.[1]" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beholder)

I understand it's legal to have an eye-monster that casts spell, as long as you don't call it a Beholder.

Wrong. You cant copyright fictional races or their names. In fact, Wizards of the Coasts themselves would not exist if it was not for this fact. WotC have replied in previous cases that races and rule-sets fall under the "you cant copyright rules and facts" exception in international copyright law. They do have copyright on characters, settings and similar things though.

[thejeff]

It may be wrong, I'm no expert on copyright law, but they do claim ownership of beholders (and mind flayers.). Probably other, less famous, monsters as well.

I don't know if anyone has challenged that in court, but games using the D20 content don't include them.

[Edi]

In any case it may pay to be prudent and avoid serious conflicts. Beholder as a name is interesting in that it's actually a word of the English language, so you can't copyright that, but the concept of the floating spherical monster with magic eyes that is called a beholder may in fact be specific enough to be copyrighted.

Mind flayers I'm not sure about, but that could depend a lot on how Lovecraftian their origins are. In Dominions they are mainly called starspawn and it's the same in CoE3. Illithid is a TSR/WOTC name, which appears in Dominions and it is more problematic.

[brxbrx]

In any case it may pay to be prudent and avoid serious conflicts. Beholder as a name is interesting in that it's actually a word of the English language, so you can't copyright that, but the concept of the floating spherical monster with magic eyes that is called a beholder may in fact be specific enough to be copyrighted.

Mind flayers I'm not sure about, but that could depend a lot on how Lovecraftian their origins are. In Dominions they are mainly called starspawn and it's the same in CoE3. Illithid is a TSR/WOTC name, which appears in Dominions and it is more problematic.

Mind Flayers are only Lovecraftian in Dominions. In D&D, they're just creepy tentacle people.

But if you can't copyright monsters, then I'd say using mind flayers in-game should be fine.

[brxbrx]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beholder#Licensing

[Corinthian]

I would like to answer thejeffs argument but I seem to have misplaced my article.



Anyway, i am not a lawyer but this is how I understand copyright law.

You can not copyright a fictional monster or a race. After all, a monster or race is when you boil it down just a list of attributes. And lists, facts and descriptions are excepted from copyright. If you could i'm sure the Tolkien estate would be even more wealthy than they already are.

You can patent certain facts or lists in some jurisdictions. Mainly the american. (Business method patents for example.) But even then it has the limitation, (i think), that it must be a method to achieve something.

Nor can you copyright a name. You can trademark a name however. But that is something quite different. Not only must you pay for a trademark. It will not prevent anyone from using it unless they use it in ways were a person could be led to believe that it is a wizards of the coast product.

A character can, however, be copyrighted. So Bob the beholder is copyrightable but the beholder race as such is not.

[Gandalf Parker]

It is also worth noting that not all legal actions by lawyers mean something was illegal. Ive worked for a law firm and can verify that some cases are taken up just because the other person cant possibly afford to fight it. So the "win" goes to the firm with the most money, not the one that is in the right

[samoht]

(I know I'm a little late to the party but I don't log in that much...)

I'm super pumped about this news.

[Soyweiser]

It is also worth noting that not all legal actions by lawyers mean something was illegal. Ive worked for a law firm and can verify that some cases are taken up just because the other person cant possibly afford to fight it. So the "win" goes to the firm with the most money, not the one that is in the right

This is so hard for people to understand sometimes. I'm often baffled by people not understanding how the legal system works.

"You should just sue them". Yeah, good luck with that. Being in the right, and being in the legal right are different things, and getting your legal right is even more difficult.

Offtopic reply btw.

[Slobby]

game looks great :)

[Fantomen]

Regarding the copyright discussion: I really doubt Illwinter or shrapnel is big enough on the market for WoTC to give a **** in this case.

The game looks promising.

[Anaconda]

It is also worth noting that not all legal actions by lawyers mean something was illegal. Ive worked for a law firm and can verify that some cases are taken up just because the other person cant possibly afford to fight it. So the "win" goes to the firm with the most money, not the one that is in the right

This is so hard for people to understand sometimes. I'm often baffled by people not understanding how the legal system works.

"You should just sue them". Yeah, good luck with that. Being in the right, and being in the legal right are different things, and getting your legal right is even more difficult.

Offtopic reply btw.

Indeed!

Business world uses ruse all the time in pursuit of benefit. Saying or writing something does not mean it is so. There are no laws againts general lying, while some special ways of unscrupulous cheating are forbidden. There are, unfortunately, even real companies based on theme "trying-out-our-luck" on copyright field, benefitting on the cost of unaware and ignorant businesses or start-ups.


It really makes me wonder how come so many people are driving with dim-lit torches, just consider general notion of how EULA works. It seems most people have no idea about their own rights as buyers - thinking everything written on EULA would bind a buyer just because its written down in there. One example people still fight over is a typical misconception among mac/PC community that one cant install OS X on PC because EULA just happens to place restrictions on it (or something like that).

But the point is, people and businesses try to make claims without a base - because it might prove profitable, and theres no restrictions how many claims one can make. Only restricting value is the number in your account, and usually the claim maker got more.



Regarding the copyright discussion: I really doubt Illwinter or shrapnel is big enough on the market for WoTC to give a **** in this case.

The game looks promising.

Common behavior in the business environment is to start caring right after the profit or sales margins reach some indicator. It is most likely even be more lucrative to wait silently and calmly and make the claim far later to maximize the profits - when someone else has first done the footwork.



~ edit ~

too cases more:

just remembered the "recent" Kinect incident, it was covered thoroughly in Wired (US). When that one organization announced a price for who ever would first hack Kinect and publish the results, Microsoft came out too and announced it would sue the hacker. This, of course, cooled down the number of try-outs, but - as we know - it was eventually done. Then Microsoft came forth again and said " just kidding, by the way heres the tool package for Windows-use also."

In my personal experience theres also recent incidence where a guy came to me and said we had written something about him in public, and while it was all true, it harmed his career and, even worse, it was actual malice. He gave me ultimatum that if we were not gonna fix it he would sue us. We reviewed the scriptings and decided to let him sue us - the (pretender)god would decide the truth of it. He never sued us anywyas - but he almost forced us to do something we were not willing to do freely, by just lying he would sue us. (actually, I have got plenty of these over the years, this one happened this summer).

[Gandalf Parker]

Well the conversation has been brought up with Illwinter as have any other points made here.
So we will hope they act safely. But if not, we have all done our job. :)
Thanks everyone.

[Endoperez]

Regarding the copyright discussion: I really doubt Illwinter or shrapnel is big enough on the market for WoTC to give a **** in this case.

The game looks promising.


Wow, that comment sparked quite a discussion. I just wanted to point out that it's possible the name "Beholder" might cause legal trouble, not that it is certain to cause them. If the devs, or a tester, comes up with a cool alternate name, changing it just in case causes no harm.


Fantomen, I have to disagree with you. Illwinter (and Shrapnel Games) might not be very big, but that doesn't mean they should be prepared to do well. Casual games are big, and while CoE won't be published on mobile platforms, it could do well. Better than Dominions, even - the market audience is much better than Dom3's more hardcore players, and the existing Illwinter fanbase could potentially spread the word rather wide.

[nordlys]

Tolkien Estate did ban TSR from using hobbits and balrogs back in the day though, hence halflings and balors.

Also, levitating balls with a huge eye and/or lots of eyestalks have a history of being called differently than Beholder in non-D&D games. Gazer in Ultima, Chaos Spawn in Master of Magic, etc. That's a proven and safe road to go.

[Fantomen]

A single monster trademarked (not copyrighted, mind you) on dubious grounds in the US is not going to cause any trouble for a 2 man indie developer in sweden, just because they use a similar monster type among hundreds of others.

First, I withhold that it's far too irrelevant for WoTC to care, and second sweden doesn't have a money driven legal system where you can just sue anyone just because you're a big company. You need to actually be more or less right to win a case here.

[brxbrx]

Actually, Shrapnel is an American company (right?). So if WotC decides to sue, they can effectively stop distribution of the game everywhere

[Anaconda]

Right, bringing the product to the States aint a problem, BUT distributing the product in the States may change the situation.

[brxbrx]

Right, bringing the product to the States aint a problem, BUT distributing the product in the States may change the situation.

If Shrapnel is indeed located in the US, distributing it anywhere would be a problem should litigation ensue.

[Soyweiser]

Well, if they trademarked the name it could be a problem. IIRC, you have to aggressively keep up your trademark or else you can lose it.

But this is just the thing Shrapnel should have lawyers for. So I think they will deal with this. (Sadly we will not really hear from it, but that is their decision).

[S.R. Krol]

The thing is though I have never seen Beholder written as Beholder(tm) in any D&D book. While the wiki claims it is part of the "identity" of D&D and therefore is not in the SRD I did a quick search for "Yaun-Ti" which they also consider the same. Lo and behold there is an entire module (http://www.goodmangames.com/5015preview.html) dedicated to the Yaun-Ti from a third party, Goodman Games. I'm also guessing you can find beholders in third party adventures.

And as pointed out beholders, while often not called beholders, have appeared in computer games since the 8-bit days.

[Soyweiser]

I don't think it is mandatory to tag each mention of a trademarked word with (TM). But hey, I'm not a lawyer :D.

[Gandalf Parker]

When I worked for a law firm I was told that tags, signs, declarations, etc are fairly worthless. Instead of being informative or legally useful, they are often used as intimidation. Signs like "not responsible for" or "do not trespass" or "violators will be shot" or "beware of dog" have little real legal value. If you are responsible, then no sign changes that. And things like (tm) tags, ToS, AUP, (or warning letters from lawfirms) are more along the line of "I want you to believe me so you wont take me to court about it".

[S.R. Krol]

And things like (tm) tags, ToS, AUP, (or warning letters from lawfirms) are more along the line of "I want you to believe me so you wont take me to court about it".

Once registered though it provides more strength (http://www.uspto.gov/faq/trademarks.jsp#_Toc275426681) than just a warning.

[lch]

:up: for a game simpler than Dom3, and :up: for a game quicker than Dom3, too. :)

I think the copyright/trademark thing on the Beholder was settled when brxbrx posted this...

[QUOTE=brxbrx;784899]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beholder#Licensing

But here's a link about copyright law that some people might find interesting, too: 10 Big Myths about copyright explained (http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html)