Aridia- LA game for intermediate players

[Groundworm]

Looking for intermediate players (10 or so MP games).

Map: Urraparand
Players: 10
Mods: CBM 1.84
Era: late age
site frequency: 40
Hall of Fame: 15
all other settings default
Banned nations: Ermor, R'lyeh
hosting: Llamaserver
hosting interval: 24h to start, extensions upon request
diplomacy: NAPs are non-binding (you may attack other provinces, overwrite global enchantments, steal artifacts, seduce commanders, etc. at will), though honorable behavior pays off in kind. Trade agreements (gold, gems, magic items, province swaps) are inviolable.
victory conditions: Become Pantokrator the old-fashioned way, hold 6 or more capital provinces for 3 consecutive turns (screenshots may be requested), or with the consensus of all remaining players. This should mitigate end-game micro and horror.

I'm open to suggestions, if people have different ideas about what would make for a better game.

Player roster:
1) Groundworm- Mictlan
2) Catquiet- Marignon
3) tratorix- Arcoscephale
4) kasnavada- Ulm
5) yandav- Bogarus
6) Sil- Patala
7) Bjaarn- Jomon
8) Anaconda- Pythium
9) Ossa- C'tis
10) Deadnature- Midgard

[Catquiet]

I'll take Marignon.

[Groundworm]

You like Marignon, Catquiet. :) Welcome aboard

[tratorix]

I'll take Arco.

[Catquiet]

Can we have renaming on in this game? It makes it a lot easier to keep track of your mages.

[tratorix]

Also I'd say up the magic site settings. The late age having less gem income makes sense from a thematic reason, but i've always found it annoying.

[Groundworm]

Welcome aboard, tratorix.

Renaming on is fine.

I'm ok with increasing magic site frequency a little bit, but my recent games (Faithless excluded) have been with very high site frequency (50+). I've found that this adds significantly to the power level and micromanagement of the game, while adding relatively little to the entertainment value. I'd be ok with 40, I'm a little more reluctant to go as high as 45 but could be convinced if the majority are in favor of. Let me know what you think.

[kasnavada]

I'll join as LA Ulm.

[yandav]

Count me in as Bogarus.

[Sil]

I'll have Patala. I'd be in favor of high magic site settings, but then having chosen Patala that is a tad self-serving.

[Bjaarn]

Sign me up for Jomon

[Anaconda]

Hola Groundworm,

would let me lead LA Pythium to glory?

[Anaconda]

Welcome aboard, tratorix.

Renaming on is fine.

I'm ok with increasing magic site frequency a little bit, but my recent games (Faithless excluded) have been with very high site frequency (50+). I've found that this adds significantly to the power level and micromanagement of the game, while adding relatively little to the entertainment value. I'd be ok with 40, I'm a little more reluctant to go as high as 45 but could be convinced if the majority are in favor of. Let me know what you think.

I stand with you, if you let me in.

For the reasons... well less is more in some weird way here. I used to play a lot of SP games with fast research and high site F, but eventually found that annoying.
Lots of micro in the end, with zero to none satisfaction from it.

Nowadays I favor having slow research, 40-45 site frequency, because it in a way engages the player more. It forces the player to make sophisticated decisions how to effectively distribute the scarce resourses and forces him/her to make use of more primitive spells too, because they need love also. Lower lvl spells make the difference when every1 is forced to use lower level stuff, therefore the brightest mind prevails. More thinking and playing, less random factors such as who is gonna be the researcher left alone long enough to march out the big guns in large numbers first.



But if allowed at all, I play it anyhow.

[Groundworm]

Welcome aboard, everyone.

I'm not hearing overwhelming objection to scarce magic sites, so I'm going to keep it at 40 for now. Thanks for the thoughtful post on the subject, Anaconda.

[Ossa]

I'd like to join with... hmm... Ctis.

[Groundworm]

Done, Ossa. One slot left!

[Deadnature]

Midgard!...please...

[Groundworm]

And we're full. Welcome aboard, Deadnature.

Let's take a few days to design our pretenders. I'll throw the game up sometime on Tuesday, and will post here with a link to the game.

[krpeters]

Wow, games fill up quickly around here. Wasn't this just posted yesterday?

[Sil]

Welcome aboard, tratorix.

Renaming on is fine.

I'm ok with increasing magic site frequency a little bit, but my recent games (Faithless excluded) have been with very high site frequency (50+). I've found that this adds significantly to the power level and micromanagement of the game, while adding relatively little to the entertainment value. I'd be ok with 40, I'm a little more reluctant to go as high as 45 but could be convinced if the majority are in favor of. Let me know what you think.

I stand with you, if you let me in.

For the reasons... well less is more in some weird way here. I used to play a lot of SP games with fast research and high site F, but eventually found that annoying.
Lots of micro in the end, with zero to none satisfaction from it.

Nowadays I favor having slow research, 40-45 site frequency, because it in a way engages the player more. It forces the player to make sophisticated decisions how to effectively distribute the scarce resourses and forces him/her to make use of more primitive spells too, because they need love also. Lower lvl spells make the difference when every1 is forced to use lower level stuff, therefore the brightest mind prevails. More thinking and playing, less random factors such as who is gonna be the researcher left alone long enough to march out the big guns in large numbers first.



But if allowed at all, I play it anyhow.

Here's my counter point to this. There are two major issues with low magic sites, and indeed the CBM gem gen changes, particularly the lack of clams: they make Blood much more powerful since you can't counter/compete with it with big Astral spam and they make caster nations a lot tougher to play. The usefulness of any bless is also considerably increased, which is a good or bad thing depending on how long in the game you think sacred recruitables should be a major force.

As for low research, the problem is that some nations desperately need a certain research goal. Patala for instance NEEDS Alt 3 by the end of year 1 to actually a) defeat rushes and b) expand in a not crippled manner. LA Utgard with a decent bless doesn't have this issue, for instance.

This, of course doesn't mean I have a major issue with doing a rare gem site game(slow research would be another thing :P) even playing a gem hungry nation.

[Catquiet]

Here's my counter point to this. There are two major issues with low magic sites, and indeed the CBM gem gen changes, particularly the lack of clams: they make Blood much more powerful since you can't counter/compete with it with big Astral spam and they make caster nations a lot tougher to play. The usefulness of any bless is also considerably increased, which is a good or bad thing depending on how long in the game you think sacred recruitables should be a major force.


I always felt that the Gem Generators warped long games. Blood, while powerful, has a constant cost. You are giving up gold from the province and research from the hunters. After a one time payment for a clam or blood stone, they are all profit with no real limit to how many you can ultimately collect. Blood income is also a lot more vulnerable than clams. You can raid, assassinate, or conquer blood hunting provinces but a clam hoarder can maintain a 50 astral income even if he is reduced to just his capital.

[Groundworm]

I tend to agree with Catquiet. In addition to his points, there's also the fact that the most recent version of CBM effectively eliminates SDRs. This admittedly is a semi-biased fix, as it affects blood nations disproportionately- Lanka and Vanheim, for instance, are hit much harder than Niefelheim.

As for certain nations needing to meet research goals, I don't advocate slow research (though I've never actually tried altered research settings), and altering site frequency doesn't effect researching at all. To address your specific point, Sil, I would argue that Patala needing Alt 3 by the end of year 1 to counter rushes is fine, but if you're waiting until the end of year 1 to expand in a not crippled manner, you're already way too late to join the party.

[Groundworm]

Also, the game is up: http://www.llamaserver.net/gameinfo.cgi?game=Aridia

[llamabeast]

low magic sites ... make Blood much more powerful

The number of blood slaves collected is actually affected by the site frequency, so in theory at least this shouldn't be true.

[Anaconda]

so whats costing?

[kasnavada]

I will no be there from friday night (GMT) to sunday afternoon (GMT time again). Could you delay hosting accordingly ?

Thanks.

[Groundworm]

I'm faced with a possible hurricane and loss of power this weekend, and kasnavada will be unable to take his turn from tonight until Sunday (though he's already submitted the current turn)

I'll watch the game clock closely, and will apply a 72 hour extension on the next turn (turn 5). This should cover those of us who may be unable to take our turns this weekend. Quickhost will still be on, so the turn will cycle if we all get it in.

[Catquiet]

Bjaarn, why no private messages?

[kasnavada]

Thanks for extending !

[Deadnature]

I would like to request a 24 hour extension since im moving into a new place and am unsure when ill get my internet up and have time for my turn.

thanks guys...I probably wont need the full 24 hours.

[Groundworm]

Done, turn extended by 24 hours. I'll keep an eye on the timer for next turn as well, and extend again if it looks like you're not going to make it.

[Deadnature]

thanks Groundworm, it turns out I didn't need it though :)

[Ossa]

The cunning nation of Ulm has attacked a province of Ctis despite the signing of a NAP. Though it may be a misunderstanding, you should better be prepared for such moves.

[Sil]

I am traveling back the the US as fall semester is starting and I'd like hosting to be delayed until something like 19:00 GMT on this Sunday. Normally I'd take my turn on my laptop in the airport but the damn thing's fan died and it started billowing smoke earlier today. I probably won't need the full time to sort things out.

[kasnavada]

The cunning nation of Ulm has attacked a province of Ctis despite the signing of a NAP. Though it may be a misunderstanding, you should better be prepared for such moves.

It was just an answer to you... building up an production center enclaved in Ulmite territory, with no other frontier than Ulm's, and enclaving us completely. You forced our hands, and continue to do so, and even worse, you start warfare on a political front...

I have a last proposal for peace. However, if Ulm does not have a way out, you WILL be our next target, for lack of another one.

[Ossa]

The lands behind the provinces you demanded were not subject of our pact. You forced our scaly hand...

[Catquiet]

Midgard has attacked Marignon. If anyone is worried about the speed of Midgard's expansion, NOW is the time to do something about it. Join me and we can stop him before he grows too large to be stopped.

[Anaconda]

For me it seems that one whos growing too fast isd Yomon. Hes been hammering in the gates of my villages and soon nothing will stop 'em.

[Deadnature]

Midgard has attacked Marignon. If anyone is worried about the speed of Midgard's expansion, NOW is the time to do something about it. Join me and we can stop him before he grows too large to be stopped.

Don't believe the fanatical heathen of Marignon! There are still 54 independent provinces left, NOW is the time to grab those.

Sadly, Midgard must struggle with the false-zealots and their cruel inquisitors who themselves block our access to the free-lands.

[Catquiet]

If you only want access to free provinces, return the two province you took from my heartland and Marignon will yield up enough of our eastern provinces to provide a path to the independent provinces you seek.

[Sil]

So my dom3 cd is dead and I can't find any way to download the game legally or torrent (since my school network seems to block that) and input my serial key. Soooo, pretty much I think I'll need to be subbed out.

This wouldn't have been an issue if my laptop hadn't burnt out right before leaving. Or if I'd backed up the CD online but... :( Awesome start to the semester for me.

Apologies for the inconvenience.

[Groundworm]

Sorry to hear that, Sil. I'll start looking for a sub.

[Deadnature]

Bummer Sil, thanks for letting us know though

[Groundworm]

Good news: We have a sub. Allium has agreed to play Patala. Welcome, Allium, and thanks!

Bad news: the llamaserver has apparently stalled, and our gracious host is unable to fix it for the moment due to personal issues. The game will continue when the llamaserver is back up, except for:

Worse news: I'll be leaving on Sunday 9/11 for vacation until 9/20. I'm uncertain about my internet access, but hope to have it. If I do, I'll attempt to take my turns as reliably as possible, but there may be delays.

Apologies for all of this- I did not expect quite this many issues with the game in the first year of play. Hopefully, the llamaserver will be back up soon, and we'll be able to resume a decent pace once I'm back.

Thanks for your patience with all this.

[Allium]

Hello, everyone. This early in the game, I doubt there's any diplomatic negotiations/agreements I need to know of, but on the off chance there are, drop me a PM.

[Deadnature]

Ossa, check your inbox!

[kasnavada]

Ouchhhh...

Now that failed somewhat badly.

[Anaconda]

please postpone the turn 12 h just to be safe - I am away till tomorrow.

[Groundworm]

Turn is postponed as requested. I will be away for the next 10 days and will take turns as often as I can. For any requests, please post here or PM Allium.

[Ossa]

@kasnavada:
Your capital will fall anyway. Your cries and plies dont help you in any way.

[Deadnature]

hey all, groundworm and annaconda have both submitted their turns, so even though we have lots of time, there's no need to wait! :)

[Groundworm]

I agree! No need to delay on my account. :)

[Deadnature]

thanks all, I've just been jones'n for my dom3 :)

[kasnavada]

As I am basically dead I set myself to AI now. Backstabbed by someone claiming to be my "saviour" just after having my only fort sieged for half the game just put this game in the realm of torture instead of fun...

[Groundworm]

I'm sorry to hear you didn't enjoy the game, kasnavada. I can't say I have a firm grasp on what's going on in your side of the world, but it sounds like you've been having a difficult time.

Thanks for playing, and I look forward to more games with you.

[Groundworm]

kasnavada, I notice you still haven't submitted your turn. Just a reminder to please submit your turn one last time, otherwise the llamaserver won't receive your request to go AI.

Sorry if I'm telling you something you already know, and thanks.

[Anaconda]

I was done last turn also. My army broke against Yomon and I lost any leverage I had to have hold on my last three provinces. Therefore turned to AI.

[kasnavada]

kasnavada, I notice you still haven't submitted your turn. Just a reminder to please submit your turn one last time, otherwise the llamaserver won't receive your request to go AI.

Sorry if I'm telling you something you already know, and thanks.

That's actually something I did last turn but it was not taken into account for some reason... :( I hope it works this time.

PS : it did work this time. See you maybe in another game.

[Catquiet]

Midgard has announced his intention to end our NAP-4 and attack Marignon on turn 30. Is anyone willing to assist the innocent citizens of Marignon?

[Deadnature]

I would like to request a 12-hour delay.

Thanks

[Groundworm]

Done! Turn is postponed by 12 hours.

[Deadnature]

Thanks! I probably won't need all of it, but just to be safe...:)

[Deadnature]

Thanks for the extra time groundworm, it turns out I *did* need it :)

[Deadnature]

Hey guys, sorry but I'm gonna need another 12 hours on this one too. I hope its not too late for this request!

[Groundworm]

Please note: the next turn (turn 31) is up, despite what the llamaserver says. You have to request a turn resend from the llamaserver, and it will give you your turn 31.

[Deadnature]

Treachery! Arcoscephale has attacked Midgard without warning and in violation of our NAP3!

Although outrageous, the nihilistic philosophers no doubt reasoned that Midgard has grown too powerful for honer, good will and agreements to be respected.

Nonetheless, those nations who have agreements with Arcoscephale may not feel the need to honer them as well. The great "Time of Oath-Breaking" has befallen Aridia! :)

[tratorix]

Treachery! Arcoscephale has attacked Midgard without warning and in violation of our NAP3!

Although outrageous, the nihilistic philosophers no doubt reasoned that Midgard has grown too powerful for honer, good will and agreements to be respected.

Nonetheless, those nations who have agreements with Arcoscephale may not feel the need to honer them as well. The great "Time of Oath-Breaking" has befallen Aridia! :)

I sent you an in game message 3 turns ago. :angel

[Deadnature]

Treachery! Arcoscephale has attacked Midgard without warning and in violation of our NAP3!

Although outrageous, the nihilistic philosophers no doubt reasoned that Midgard has grown too powerful for honer, good will and agreements to be respected.

Nonetheless, those nations who have agreements with Arcoscephale may not feel the need to honer them as well. The great "Time of Oath-Breaking" has befallen Aridia! :)

I sent you an in game message 3 turns ago. :angel

Hmm, I don't recall getting one, but if you say you did that's fine. But in the future you really should send a message to someone's forum-message-box, that's usually the go-to spot for conducting diplomacy :)

[tratorix]

Any chance of moving the timer to 48 hours? I'd settle for 36 if you guys think that's better, but 24 is really starting to wear on me.

[Groundworm]

Yeah, I've been thinking about extending the turns; I've been having to postpone recent turns (for multiple people).

Turn timer is now 48 hours.

[Deadnature]

Yeah, thanks for the on-the-spot postponements Groundworm, but perhaps it is best if we extend the clock at this point.

[Deadnature]

Groundworm, I hope you see this in time. I'm sorry about the wait already guys, but I've had a ton of work drop on me recently and am gonna need another 24hrs in order to submit my turn.

Thanks!

[tratorix]

Well, if you'd let us take some more of your territory off your hands maybe you wouldn't have this problem. :D

[Deadnature]

I just want to quickly say that I now hold six capitals, I'll post more later...but I just wanted to give all of you the heads up ASAP so you can start planning the next three turns. I think you all know this already, but I'll post more details soon.

[Bjaarn]

I dont mean to be rude here but is there a glich where you can win a battle you lost? Ive won a few battles vs Midgard in the last 10 turns but some of them, the latest at one of my besiged castles I still loose the province when I win the battle. What is up with this?

[Deadnature]

Ok so, its six capitals that I control:

Marignon

Jomon

Pythium

My own capital

Ctis

Ulm

I think this needs no confirmation but I'm willing to provide my turn file to a neutral third-party if necessary.

So I guess the clock starts now, does that mean that if no one snatches a capital away from me before we receive "turn file 44" then I win? I assume so...

[Deadnature]

@Bjarn: no offense but you didn't win those battles (at least not the last one), the battle report is the correct outcome, sometimes there is a bug where the battle you view in the combat screen is not quite what actually happened, but the battle report is always true. In my case anyways it said that I won.

Edit: Also the battles that I watched in the combat screen correctly displayed my victory (but it was damn close :) )

Maybe that's an element of the bug; if the battle is really close then some small mixed-up variable in the battle screen can change the outcome, in this case it may have been a morale factor, since the majority of both our armies fled (as I saw it) but but my contingent of crossbowmen stuck around and inflicted enough damage to rout what was left of your army...not sure though...when this is all over you can see my turn file if you want.

[Bjaarn]

What? Did we watch the same battle? Im talking about province 34. You had no troops left and were routed. My army was never routed and I had ~40-50 troops left. And yes the outcome screen says I lost but the battle clearly shows the opposite. Strange how this bug only favors you..

[tratorix]

Bjaarn, the battle replay bug is well known. The game composes the battle videos on your computer, not the server. This can lead to situations where the replay shows a completely different outcome from what actually happened. It sucks, but theres really nothing that can be done about it.

[Deadnature]

...And yes the outcome screen says I lost but the battle clearly shows the opposite. Strange how this bug only favors you..

Yes, province 34. It's a known bug, look it up. If you want to believe the combat screen instead, that's fine but everyone else sees the fort as being owned by Midgard, so the result is very clear.

This bug doesn't "favor" me at all, it just misrepresents what really happened.

I resent your implication and would like to repeat that I'm willing to submit any and all of my turn files to a third party if I'm being accused of something.

I've had this bug happen to me before too (and I was also disappointed), I tried to politely explain it to you. Then you made your insinuations...

Edit: removed a rude comment

[Groundworm]

Deadnature is correct. The battle replay bug is clearly documented, and it's happened to me in the past as well. What the outcome screen says is the actual outcome of the battle, regardless of the battle you actually get to watch. As has been said, it's unfortunate, but it happens. If the outcome screen says you lost the battle, then I'm afraid you did.

Deadnature: do you actually control the forts of the capital provinces? As in, have laid siege to them and they're yours? If so, then yes, the countdown starts. If you've only captured the province but haven't taken the fort, then that's insufficient. If you have the fort but it's under siege from another nation, then that still counts as you holding it. It's control of the fort that matters. You've fought honorably and you've fought extremely well, so I'm willing to accept your word in this matter.

[Bjaarn]

Ok well I guess that explains it, Im sorry if you felt accused DN but its the first time Ive seen this bug and for it to happen several times just put me abit off.

[Groundworm]

Which provinces are the capitals you are using to claim impending victory, Deadnature?

[Deadnature]

Hey, its cool Bjaarn I totally understand if you feel frustrated at such a bug, I think I too suspicious when I first encountered it.

@Groundworm

Do I have to tell the capitals locations to all? Well, I guess you could talk amongst yourselves and figure it out anyways, so in the spirit of sportsmanship (and perhaps the rules :)) The provinces are as follows:

Midgard (me) 121

Ctis 80

Ulm 84

Pythium 34

Marignon 28

Jomon 11

[Groundworm]

Thanks, Deadnature.

In the future, I'll be more clear about the victory conditions- that you must have possession of the fort, and that you must make public which provinces you hold to claim victory. My apologies for not being more forthcoming earlier.

[Deadnature]

Oh not at all, no apologies needed. Like I said, you guys could have talked among yourselves, compared notes and figured it out, so I might as well tell you all...its a non-issue.

[Deadnature]

Are we saying the game ends if I still control all capital-forts after receiving "turn-file 44" or "turn-file 45?"

Because if its "turn-file 44," then I guess the game is over, since as of this turn I still control all 6 of the previously mentioned capital-forts and none of them have breached walls. I can go either way so let me know what y'all think.

[Groundworm]

Well, I'd vote for turn 45 if given the choice. This is mostly selfish, because I'm enjoying this game and I'm making progress (though I don't know how much) against your walls in province 84 and (I think) against you overall. One more turn may make the difference in siegeing the fort, or it may not.

[Deadnature]

ok, one more turn it is then :)

[Deadnature]

I'm making progress (though I don't know how much) against your walls in province 84 and (I think) against you overall.

It may seem that way because I've gone into fort-lockdown mode, and we're in the final few turns here, so I can afford to lose as much land as I want, as long as I hold those forts. If we were playing a domination game my strategy would be very different right now :)

[Deadnature]

We can play out this last turn if you all want, but as of this turn "44" I still control six caps with no breached walls, so I think its impossible for me to lose now. To be honest, even if the game was to go on for several more turns, I could probably still hold any given fort by virtue of gateways/mass-cloud-trapize/remote summoning and so on, but you guys fought a really good fight nonetheless.

So let me know what you all think, we can call it now or wait for it to become official after we process the next turn.

[Groundworm]

No need to wait, we can call it now. I get the feeling that even if I had managed to take the fort by now, I'd still lose the game by a long, drawn-out process of you taking over the entire world.

Deadnature, you played a very aggressive game. You started conquering nations early on and basically never stopped until you won. You provided all of us with opposition that I we could not overcome; you not only fought against five of us at once- you *defeated* five of us at once. Your strategies were dynamic, solid, and well-utilized, and to say that I am impressed is an understatement. Extremely well done. I sincerely hope to one day be able to play anywhere near as well.

My compliments to Yandav, as well... until the last turn of the game, I could not finish you off. Your battle magic was fearsome, and I had no way of dealing with you short of domkilling you (which I was working on). You also played an excellent game... I think that had I not attacked you early, you would have been far better than me at effectively opposing Midgard.

I, on the other hand, feel like I did very poorly in comparison. I couldn't deal with Bogarus even though he had almost nothing left. This last turn was an extremely bitter experience of watching my three of my expensive thugs die to one single mage each. And, all the while, I was utterly incapable of breaching even a single fort... something Midgard did with apparent ease over and over and over again. While my early game was sound, my overall play was a great disappointment to me.

Does anyone oppose me declaring this game over?

[tratorix]

No objections here. The outcome of this game has been apparent to me for a while now. Very well played Deadnature, you seized the advantage early and never let up.

[Deadnature]

Good game guys, I'll post an ARR of sorts in a bit, but as was said, naked aggression was the cornerstone of my game; once my war started it never stopped until it was being fought on every front, early game lightning and infantry got me going, and later I mixed in some other things. But combat-air-magic and skinshifters essentially remained the backbone of my forces for the rest of the game.

One reflection I could make about what was said on me conquering forts with such ease:

What surprised me was that none of my adversaries whom I attacked (C'tis, Marignon, Jomon in that order) tried to hold out for a costly siege battle. Each of those foes opted instead to try to take on my overwhelming forces in the field, (except Marignon, who seemed to take a half measure on this approach, leaving a large force in the east). This meant that sieges were even faster and much less costly.

I'm not saying this was a bad idea, since to win one can't stay bottled up in forts. But in this case it played directly into my hands, since a field battle was exactly what my higher-quality/more-numerous infantry wanted.

Jomon did come close to winning a few field victories, but was too vastly outnumbered by the time the hordes of skinshifters got to him.

Plus sailing was perfect for this map and my starting position, so that really sped up the conquest as well.