YARG3, non newb MA+ENP2 RAND game. Executor's Ulm winner on turn 76

[WraithLord]

Welcome to YARG3. The toughest and meanest arena :tough:, where the vets beat each other senseless :hammer:.
This is a RAND type game. As in Random Anonymous No Diplomacy game.
Diplomacy or any form of communication is not allowed.

The game is not strictly targeted for vets but it is certainly not for green newBs.
More important though is your mettle. We want tough sons of *****es who won't go AI or stale on the first sign of trouble .
So try the following quiz:
A. I just lost a major battle. That sucks. Should I turn AI or start staling?
B. I just got gang banged by X nations. That sucks. Should I turn AI or start staling?
C. I just got attacked by stupid player XYZ, doesn't he see that it's an awful stupid move. That sucks. Should I turn AI or start staling?

If you've answered yes to at least one of them, then please join another game. YARG is not for the feint of heart. Here wars or fought the very bitter end.

Let's recap YARG history. Two games took place: YARG1 (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=43461&page=9) and YARG2 (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=45188&page=10).

:party::
YARG HoF
A titan towering above mere mortals. Shrewd and fierce. He has viciously crushed all opposition and put the world under his iron boot. All hail the glorious victor. I give you the YARG winners:
YARG1: Isokron :first:
YARG2: Dimaz and Psycho :first:

These guys have made to the end. They've endured constant wars and heavy beatings. They were rushed, attacked, gang banged and took pretty much any form of abuse known in dominions universe but they did not succumb. They resisted defeat and extinction to the very end. They are the last shred of hope to their nations and should the iron grip of the winner ever loosen they will rise again to put up the fight. I give you YARG iron man:
YARG1: WingedDog, Raiel, Executor , TwoBits, Dimaz, WraithLord :fire:
YARG2: Don Pablo, Slobby, WingedDog, WraithLord :fire:

This individual is wise and generous. His selflessness allows us to enjoy the game. He is there to make sure the game runs smoothly. We all owe a big thank you to our beloved admin.
YARG1: rdonj :angel
YARG2: rdonj :angel
:party::

YARG3 description:
This is a RAND game. So no diplomacy whatsoever. No posting here your identity, your nation or giving clues as to what your ID is. Nations are assigned randomly, or rather, since so many nations are available, assigned according to picks and luck.

I will maintain the game thread. I will create and end the game. However the game will need one or two volunteers for two things. First, to assign nations and second, to admin the game. W/O such volunteers there will be no game :(
Please note that during the game I'll be stepping back and will be just another player. Don't PM me re. admin. stuff.

Some of the settings are open for discussion, the rest are fixed and will be marked by bold font.
Map: Orania
Hosting Pace: First 15 turns every 24h, turns 15-30 48h, turn 30-45 72h, turn 45-60 96h, turn > 61 120h.
Considerate extension giving policy. Hosting is planned for busy ppl.
Mods: Y3_CB1.9 (CBM1.9 copy for this game, attached). ENP2 (http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&drKey=1081&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fz7.invisionfree.com%2FDom3mods%2F index.php%3Fshowtopic%3D379&v=1&libid=1314797911727&out=http%3A%2F%2Fforum.shrapnelgames.com%2Fattachm ent.php%3Fattachmentid%3D11161%26d%3D1305582776&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fz7.invisionfree.com%2FDom3mods%2F index.php%3Fshowforum%3D1&title=Dominions%203%20-%3E%20Expanded%20Nation%20Packs%20released!&txt=download%20the%20complete%20packs%20here&jsonp=vglnk_jsonp_13147979248382).
Renaming: off
Research: difficult
Graphs: on
HoF: 15
Indies: 9
Disallowed exploits: copying Bogus' orders and overfilling enemy lab to prevent his own forge.
Killing own mages under Ankh or LaD to gain freebe mages and troops. It's ok in a battle but it's not ok to set it up on purpose (whoever likes to do it knows what I'm talking about). I'm no longer certain whether or not CBM1.9 has fixed this. If it didn't please don't abuse it.
Probing armies with scouts/commanders must be done in such a way so as not to block movement.
Era: MA
Nations: Land only. ENP2 MA+Vanilla MA. Assignment is totally random.
Victory condition: ~50% VPs == 9 VPs. Each capital has 1 VP visible on game map.
Pretenders should be given nations name!

Admin:
rdonj

Nation assigner:
Dimaz

FYI RE. Map (Thank you SL):
prov site
2 http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Tempest_Spire
3 http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Forest_of_Golden_Leaves
5 http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Frozen_Lands
10 http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Blizzard_Valley
33 http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Acade..._Crescent_Moon
38 http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Moon_Mages_Circle
39 http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Dragon_Jaws
60 http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Standing_Stones
104 http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Silver_Forest
125 http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Well_of_All_Waters
139 http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/The_World_Pillar
151 http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Chillsick_Swamp
173 http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Oak_of_Ages
208 http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Volcano
209 http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Skull_Temple
277 http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Mount_Frost
279 http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Red_Forest
The 'Oak of Ages' would be replaced with 'The Motheroak'
http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/The_Motheroak
and 'Mount Frost' would be replaced with 'Frost Vale'
http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Frost_Vale

Players:
1. WraithLord
2. Stagger Lee, Ruler of Arco. Defeated on turn 32.
3. TwoBits
4. Executor, Winner - on turn 76.
5. wonderloss, Ruler of Bandar. Defeated on turn 40.
6. ghoul31, Ruler of Abysia. Defeated on turn 27.
7. Slobby
8. don_Pablo
9. danbo, Ruler of Ashdid. Defeated on turn 54.
10. tratorix, Ruler of TC. Defeated on turn 40.
11. sansanjuan, Ruler of Arga Dis. Defeated on turn 48.
12. GFSnl, Ruler of Marignon. Defeated on turn 50.
13. mockingbird
14. Deadnature, Ruler of Pythium. Staling since turn 27.
15. Curious Yellow
16. Aethyr, subbed by Squirrelloid, Ruler of Man. Defeated on turn 24.
17. yandav, Ruler of Shangri-La. Defeated on turn 46.
18. Bullock, Ruler of Al-Nadim. Defeated on turn 29.


GL All and have a fun game :)

[Stagger Lee]

I would like to redeem myself for my miserable performance as Niefelheim in YARG2. :o

My vote will be for completely random nations chosen after sign ups are closed. You probably know this, but enp2 is not all MA nations. Haida Gwaii is EA, and there are some LA nations as well. I've never tried that pack, only looked at some of those nations individually. I'll do a little testing when I get the chance.

[WraithLord]

cool. glad to have you on board.

re. ENP2. yeap, I'm aware of this. only the MA nations of the pack are available.

I'm not sure if completely random nations would work. Since for that you'll need what?- 27 or so players?

Perhaps three picks per player would work better.

[TwoBits]

Aw, what the hell, count me in. I still feel like whining like a little girl for getting stuck with Kailasa in YARG2 (despite folks telling me I should have kicked *** with them :confused:).

But instead of griping about "let's have this nation in it, but not this one", I'll role the dice and take what the soon-to-retire Pantakrator gives me (come on Shinuyama/Niefelheim/Patala/any-giant-bible-god-insert-here/etc.!) ;)

Format, shmormat. I don't care. I'll kill you all any which way but loose! (but really, indies-9 again? ugh... ;) )

[Executor]

Why only 10 players?
Sign me up for now WL, tho if it doesn't turn up to be a slightly larger game I might drop it. Not sure I want to commit if it doesn't turn up to be a large competitive game.

Regarding ENP, there should an all MA nations mod uploaded by me on Llamaserver, we used it for the game Testing Ground.

[WraithLord]

TwoBits, I'm happy you've joined though I sure hope we don't end up as neighbors.

Executor, some players feel strongly for 8-10 games. Other like bigger games. I think yet other players don't care so much.
I personally prefer a big game, like 20-24 players. Let's wait to see how many players sign in.
I will be most delighted if you'll end up playing so I'm crossing fingers for enough players to sign up.

RE. ENP. Can you elaborate on that mod?- Does it allow all ENP2 in MA?- How is it named?

Indies 9 and hard research are fun. They screw up lot's of strats :)

[Executor]

That's the link for the DM file we used.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=10963&d=1301604832

It's just a simple job of changing the eras of those non MA nations from #era 1 and #era 3 to #era 2.

Hopefully it will be a big game, I suggest posting this thread on the other forum as well.

[WraithLord]

I got the impression that players from the other forum mostly like small games. Perhaps b/c I saw a number of such comments there.
Perhaps it's worthwhile to post there anyway. I'll do so tomorrow probably.

[WraithLord]

Oh and that ENP is 1.01. IIRC llama has made a more updated version.
Besides, 5/9 of ENP2 nations are MA. Should be enough to choose from, wouldn't you agree?

[wonderloss]

I would like to throw my hat in the ring.

[WraithLord]

The ring welcomes you wonderloss :)

FYI, these are the ENP2 MA nations, you may choose from them or each of Vanilla MA nations.
"
Shangri-La, Hidden City of the Secret Masters originally by Nounours, extended and maintained by Globu
Al-Nadim, The Thousand and One Nights by elmokki
Svarogia, Dark Forests by Executor
Arga Dis, Blood of Warriors by Sombre
Pythium, The Second Empire by Burnsaber
"

[ghoul31]

I'll join

[Slobby]

sign me up

[tratorix]

I'll play.

[danbo]

I loved YARG2 though was wiped out rather early. I'm in.

[sansanjuan]

Damn you...
I'm in
ssj

[WraithLord]

OP updated.

Hooray. Hooray. Hooray. rdonj has agreed to admin for YARG3 as well. I could hope for no better admin :)

I hope to find a volunteer to help with the nation assignment...

[GFSnl]

I'd like to join too.

[WraithLord]

Dimaz has graciously agreed to do the nation assignment so we have almost all the parts in place.

We need to finalize the list of players. For that I'll wait a few more days.

Then we need to decide on a map.

EDIT: GFSnl, your reputation precedes you. I'm glad to have a chance to play with you.

[mockingbird]

I would like to join, please.

[WraithLord]

Welcome aboard :)

OP updated.

[yugi24862]

It it too late to join? Also, are nations random or do we list preferences? I couldn't see anything in the OP about it.

[Aethyr]

D*** I told myself I would not join another game this summer. Sign me up. :D

[WraithLord]

yugi24862, can you please tell me a bit about your MP experience?- I need to ask since too big a difference in experience can unbalance the game.

Every player will list three nations he wants to play. I assume Dimaz would give the players their top choice when possible and role a dice to decide conflicts otherwise.

Aethyr, sorry to ruin your plan not to join another game this summer but I'm sure glad you'd be joining this one :)

[Deadnature]

a RAND game is just what I'm looking for, please sign me up.

[Curious Yellow]

I would like to join. Tried to join YARG2, but at that time I did not have sufficient experience. Now I've played a few MP games, won a couple, don't think I'll be total pushover at least.

[TwoBits]

Every player will list three nations he wants to play.

Wait, we're not doing totally random race selection like the previous YARGs?

[Stagger Lee]

cool. glad to have you on board.

re. ENP2. yeap, I'm aware of this. only the MA nations of the pack are available.

I'm not sure if completely random nations would work. Since for that you'll need what?- 27 or so players?

Perhaps three picks per player would work better.



I didn't mean that we would need 28 (I think) players, just that 28 nations go into the hat, Dimaz uses whatever system he wants to give each player a nation, and none of us knows what anyone else has, or which ones are still in the hat until the game starts.

If we are listing preferences, we should be doing that by PM to Dimaz since publicly stating a preference will give clues to who is playing what. And I would vote not to complicate things for someone who is doing us a favor.

Thank you in advance, Dimaz. :)

[WraithLord]

TwoBits and Stagger Lee. We could do it totally random as Stagger Lee suggests.

I also agree with Stagger Lee's suggestion to PM Dimaz with the preference re. nation assignment by picks or completely random.

EDIT: OP updated.
You know, I came up with the nation picks idea thinking that we may end up with a small number of players. Seeing as we're already up to 15 I think it makes sense to just use the same mechanism that has served previous YARG - totally random assignment.
Does it make sense to you?
I do hope we're not giving Dimaz too much of a headache :)

[Curious Yellow]

I'm cool with random nations.

[tratorix]

I vote totally random.

[Deadnature]

I too favor totally random, if only to spare me the difficulty of choosing my top three nations :)

[yandav]

May I join?
(And if I can play, I'd prefer random nations.)

[sansanjuan]

random is fine by me.
-ssj

[Aethyr]

I'm OK with ramdom, or whatever. WL, please add me to the OP. :)

[WraithLord]

Oops. Thanks for reminding me.

yandav, sure thing. Welcome aboard :)

Seems like random nations it is.
We're now at 17 players. This should be enough to start a game. However, I will wait a few more days before closing the game. I think 24 (as in YARG) would be our top limit.

[Finalgenesis]

Damn... If I didn't have another long MP endgame hanging on my back I'd jump on this one grrr

[WraithLord]

Finalgenesis, YARG games are usually not stressful. The pacing is moderate and considerate.

I think you can safely join this one :)

[WraithLord]

ok. Map choices:
- Glory of the gods (multilayer version). Used for YARG2 and YARG1.
- AsiaTwist
- Alexander
- Westeros

Please vote or argue your favorite or bring other choices if you like.

Also, we can do this land nations only game. How do you feel about it?

As for nations pool, Dimaz you can use this list:
Abysia, Blood and Fire
Agartha, Golem Cult
Arcoscephale, The Old Kingdom
Ashdod, Reign of the Anakim
Atlantis, Kings of the Deep
Bandar Log, Land of the Apes
Caelum, Reign of the Seraphim
C'tis, Miasma
Eriu, Last of the Tuatha
Ermor, Broken Empire
Jotunheim, Iron Woods
Machaka, Reign of Sorcerors
Man, Tower of Avalon
Marignon, Fiery Justice
Mictlan, Reign of the Lawgiver
Oceania, Coming of the Capricorns
Pangaea, Age of Bronze
Pythium, Emerald Empire
R'lyeh, Fallen Star
Shinuyama, Land of the Bakemono
T'ien Ch'i, Imperial Bureaucracy
Ulm, Forges of Ulm
Vanheim, Arrival of Man
Shangri-La, Hidden City of the Secret Masters originally by Nounours, extended and maintained by Globu
Al-Nadim, The Thousand and One Nights by elmokki
Svarogia, Dark Forests by Executor
Arga Dis, Blood of Warriors by Sombre
Pythium, The Second Empire by Burnsaber

So either 28 nations or 25 land nations.

[WraithLord]

Since we're basically good to go I see no point in waiting too much for further enrollment. So I'll be closing the player's list tomorrow. This will make possible a better choice of suitable map.

[Executor]

Personally, I'm in favor of a non water game, have a fear of depths you know.

Now, gimme my nation fool!:)

[Stagger Lee]

ok. Map choices:
- Glory of the gods (multilayer version). Used for YARG2 and YARG1.
- AsiaTwist
- Alexander
- Westeros

Please vote or argue your favorite or bring other choices if you like.


Westeros looks pretty cool. I will test it some, and it will probably get my vote. Orania and Riverlands are the right size and they wrap. I played YARG2 on Alexander - maybe that's what I did wrong. ;)

It will be very difficult to balance a map with a random # of water nations, so I say no to them also.

[GFSnl]

I like wrapped maps as they are much fairer.
Otherwise people at the corners and edges have a large advantage.

Orania is nice.

[Executor]

I like wrapped maps as they are much fairer.
Otherwise people at the corners and edges have a large advantage.

Orania is nice.

True, I'm also in favor of a wrap around map, but if we use Orania than the special sites in certain provinces need to be removed. Having known discount sites in a anonymous game is a very bad idea.

[Bullock]

i m not yet a vet but i did pretty well in my first games. (i even managed to win one ;)) thanks to a lot of sp practicing.

So if you think i have the required level i d be glad to join.
Concerning the votes,if i m in, i m fully for the random nations, i don t mind about water nations and i d vote for the Westeros map which looks pretty nice.

[mockingbird]

I would also be in favor of leaving out the water nations.

[WraithLord]

ok. looks like we're going land nations only, total random assignment.
Bullock, I'm signing you up.

I agree re. wraparound maps. Westeros got some votes. However I didn't test it and have no idea how balanced it may be or whether or not it's wraparound.

Orania is very nice but I'm worried about the spec. sites that Executor has mentioned. But wait a sec. didn't CBM 1.84 remove the big discount sites (>= 30%)?

[WraithLord]

Guys, unless I hear any objections I think we should go with Orania. It's a good looking map, wraparound and got a lot of mileage.

I also suggest 9VPs victory condition.

If all proceeds as planned tomorrow I'll send the players list to Dimaz and ask him to assign the nations.
In parallel I will create the game on the llamaserver and notify rdonj that we'll soon be ready to start.

[WraithLord]

OP updated. Game is closed.
We're waiting for Dimaz to assign nations.

[WraithLord]

Game is ready on the server: http://www.llamaserver.net/gameinfo.cgi?game=YARG3

[Stagger Lee]

Just to remind some players who may not have played in RAND type games before:

Random
Anonymous
No
Diplomacy

I will create the game on the llamaserver and notify rdonj that we'll soon be ready to start.

Welcome rdonj! Thanks for helping again! :)

Also, don't send in your pretender and then post in the thread "my pretender is in!" ;)

[wonderloss]

The ENP 2 link directs here (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showpost.php?p=47230). Could you post a link in the OP to make sure everyone is downloading the correct mod?

[WraithLord]

Will do. Correct link is - ENP2 (http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&drKey=1081&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fz7.invisionfree.com%2FDom3mods%2F index.php%3Fshowtopic%3D379&v=1&libid=1314797911727&out=http%3A%2F%2Fforum.shrapnelgames.com%2Fattachm ent.php%3Fattachmentid%3D11161%26d%3D1305582776&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fz7.invisionfree.com%2FDom3mods%2F index.php%3Fshowforum%3D1&title=Dominions%203%20-%3E%20Expanded%20Nation%20Packs%20released!&txt=download%20the%20complete%20packs%20here&jsonp=vglnk_jsonp_13147979248382)

[rdonj]

Hey everyone, your cruel, heartless, and definitely very much hated admin here. I'm under the understanding that most of you still don't know what nations you're playing,so I'll be PMing you your nations shortly.

Thanks for all the warm welcomes :)

[rdonj]

Okay nation PMs sent, I don't think I missed anyone but let me know if that's the case.

[Aethyr]

Thanks rdonj. How much time do we have to play around with builds?

[WraithLord]

I think one week should be plenty enough.
Once the game is started I'll be stepping aside and let rdonj do most of the admin stuff, except for changing host schedule as listed in the OP.

So please don't PM me re. anything admin. related. Only PM rdonj. He is the one and only source of truth and power in our universe :)

[tratorix]

So, are we allowed to get a list of the nations in the game without player names? Or are we completely in the dark?

[Bullock]

So, are we allowed to get a list of the nations in the game without player names? Or are we completely in the dark?

That s what you are looking for ?
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showpost.php?p=782571&postcount=39

Edit: Just realized you were expecting only the missing nations.

[WraithLord]

Wouldn't it be more fun to keep this as surprise?- Even more anonymous than usual :p

[Bullock]

Wouldn't it be more fun to keep this as surprise?- Even more anonymous than usual :p

i totally agree =p

[WraithLord]

Guys. Please make sure you get a confirmation from the server when sending your pretenders.
If you suspect any problem please inform rdonj.

[Stagger Lee]

And remember this, from the OP. ;)


Pretenders should be given nations name!

[Stagger Lee]

I like wrapped maps as they are much fairer.
Otherwise people at the corners and edges have a large advantage.

Orania is nice.

True, I'm also in favor of a wrap around map, but if we use Orania than the special sites in certain provinces need to be removed. Having known discount sites in a anonymous game is a very bad idea.

I agree. Sorry I didn't test this before. Is there a version w/o special sites? I will try my hand at removing them, but if there is someone who actually knows how to do it, I will gladly defer to you. :)

[WraithLord]

Why is it such a bad idea?- The OP sites have been taken care of by CBM. The rest shouldn't pose a balance problem nor infringe on anonymity.

That said, I'd have preferred random sites but I've no idea how to do it, nor would I risk the game with a last minute changed map.
If you, or anyone else, have a better idea I'm all ears. Until then I'd choose the lesser evil :)

Oh, I'm guessing these would be the offending sites:
#feature "Tempest Spire"
#feature "Forest of Golden Leaves"
#feature "Blizzard Valley"
#feature "Academy of the Crescent Moon"
#feature "Moon Mages Circle"
#feature "Dragon Jaws"
#feature "Standing Stones"
#feature "Silver Forest"
#feature "Red Forest"

I don't know, are they that bad?- Every player can either set his sights on any of them or not, they are fair game after all.

[Stagger Lee]

I didn't realize cbm automatically nerfed the big sites. I guess I should pay closer attention. ;)

As for the rest, knowledge is power! :cool:

[WraithLord]

LOL, would be extra fun to watch ppl go at each other's throats to get to those sites.

I just noticed that they're also visually marked on the map so noon can miss them muhahahaha ;)

[Dimaz]

LOL, would be extra fun to watch ppl go at each other's throats to get to those sites.

I just noticed that they're also visually marked on the map so noon can miss them muhahahaha ;)

I think that was the point of adding them in the first place.

[Stagger Lee]

WL, in my test game I have Oak of Ages (http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Oak_of_Ages) in the Oak of Ages province. :(

I think cbm does not weed it out because it is hardcoded in the .map file. Has anyone else tested on the map? That province will be a bloodbath for sure. Unless I missed an update somewhere.

[WraithLord]

*sigh*

You're right. Thank you for the heads up.
I don't have real understanding of map syntax. I gathered that "feature" means site. It sorta made sense and I think it's true. However, in light of your finding I searched the map file again and found another keyword- this one I think is for OP sites :(

I found these when searching that keyword:
"Mount Frost"
"Frozen Lands"
"Well of all Waters"
"The World Pillar"
"Chillsick Swamp"
"Oak of Ages"
"Volcano"
"Skull Temple"
"Mount Frost"

This is not good. I don't know what each site does but I don't like the sound of it.
I guess I could use trial and error to remove them and UL a "no OP special site Orania". I'm not sure I'll have time to actually test it though :(

[WraithLord]

ok. I think I managed to fix the map. I'll appreciate any feedback WRT the fix. I'll also do what I can to test it.

EDIT: Guys, plz take into account that the game will use this fixed map so, as far my understanding goes, this means you'll need it on the map folder.

[Stagger Lee]

ok. I think I managed to fix the map. I'll appreciate any feedback WRT the fix. I'll also do what I can to test it.

EDIT: Guys, plz take into account that the game will use this fixed map so, as far my understanding goes, this means you'll need it on the map folder.

WL, can you come to irc? GFsnl and I were just discussing a possible quick fix, replacing oak of ages and mount frost with lesser sites.

[WraithLord]

Oh, I was fast asleep when you posted this.

Can you please PM or email me with the details?- I'm in and (mostly) out of the house today so I won't really have contiguous dominions time slot until much later this evening. I'll PM you with my email.

Thanks!

EDIT: Oh and so far my fixed map looks good. Works like a charm after removing 8 powerful sites.

[Stagger Lee]

So far so good. My concern is not really with the sites themselves, but that inevitably some people will not be paying attention at this stage, and will feel cheated later.

prov site
2 http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Tempest_Spire
3 http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Forest_of_Golden_Leaves
5 http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Frozen_Lands
10 http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Blizzard_Valley
33 http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Academy_of_the_Crescent_Moon
38 http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Moon_Mages_Circle
39 http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Dragon_Jaws
60 http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Standing_Stones
104 http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Silver_Forest
125 http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Well_of_All_Waters
139 http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/The_World_Pillar
151 http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Chillsick_Swamp
173 http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Oak_of_Ages
208 http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Volcano
209 http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Skull_Temple
277 http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Mount_Frost
279 http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Red_Forest

This is the list of all sites on the map, and the locations. Some have coded guardians too. #feature and #knownfeature signify sites. I didn't know any of this before yesterday. :)

Most of these would have little effect on gameplay. Maybe just post this list to the OP and be done with it? Let's hear some opinions.

[Bullock]

So far so good. My concern is not really with the sites themselves, but that inevitably some people will not be paying attention at this stage, and will feel cheated later.

prov site
2 http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Tempest_Spire
3 http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Forest_of_Golden_Leaves
5 http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Frozen_Lands
10 http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Blizzard_Valley
33 http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Academy_of_the_Crescent_Moon
38 http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Moon_Mages_Circle
39 http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Dragon_Jaws
60 http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Standing_Stones
104 http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Silver_Forest
125 http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Well_of_All_Waters
139 http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/The_World_Pillar
151 http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Chillsick_Swamp
173 http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Oak_of_Ages
208 http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Volcano
209 http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Skull_Temple
277 http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Mount_Frost
279 http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Red_Forest

This is the list of all sites on the map, and the locations. Some have coded guardians too. #feature and #knownfeature signify sites. I didn't know any of this before yesterday. :)

Most of these would have little effect on gameplay. Maybe just post this list to the OP and be done with it? Let's hear some opinions.

i m not very comfortable with sites giving a booster >20-25% unless they are random. I'd suggest to replace stuff like Oak of Ages by something good but not so overpowered.

[GFSnl]

The 'Oak of Ages' would be replaced with 'The Motheroak'
http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/The_Motheroak

and 'Mount Frost' would be replaced with 'Frost Vale'
http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Frost_Vale

The other sites are real nice and worth fighting for but not exceptionally overpowered imho.

[Bullock]

Good picks GFSnl to replace the Oak of Ages.
But is the mount frost so overpowered ? Anyway i m still fine with the replacement.

[Stagger Lee]

The 'Oak of Ages' would be replaced with 'The Motheroak'
http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/The_Motheroak

and 'Mount Frost' would be replaced with 'Frost Vale'
http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Frost_Vale

The other sites are real nice and worth fighting for but not exceptionally overpowered imho.

Yeah, I did that. It's one of my 5-6 orania maps now! ;)

It's available if you want it WL. Let's hear from some more people first. And Bullock, two free seasonal spirits/trn does seem situationally very strong.

[wonderloss]

That fix seems reasonable.

[WraithLord]

Stagger Lee, where can I get the fixed map?
I want to test it some and then put it on the server so we could use it in the game.

[WraithLord]

Got no response from you so I made the suggested fix myself. I also had some time to test it and it looks to work well.

I'm attaching the map to the OP. This will be the game map.

[WraithLord]

We aim to start this Wednesday so please make sure to submit your pretenders. So far we have 8/18.

[llamabeast]

Hey, just so you know, CB1.9 will be coming out tomorrow. It makes significant changes to a number of MA nations, most notably Agartha, Ulm and Man. Sorry for the unfortunate timing.

[WraithLord]

Thank you llamabeast for the heads up and indeed for all your efforts to improve the game!

I'm personally excited about tomorrow's release and will surely do quite a lot of SP testing with it. However, like any new release it will take some time to mature (even when made by a master modder ;)) and an anonymous game is not a good platform to report bugs or exploits.
My heart says go CBM 1.9 but my heads says no, play it safe for this game and go 1.9.x for the next :)

Perhaps, it would work if the players could report bugs/exploits to you directly and discretely. Oh the temptation.
Dear fellow players. What say you?

EDIT: BTW, your server was hit by frozen heart yesterday 23:45 GMT on Sunday September 4th :)

[WraithLord]

EDIT2
"EDIT: BTW, your server was hit by frozen heart yesterday 23:45 GMT on Sunday September 4th :)"
Should have been:
"EDIT: BTW, your server was hit by frozen heart yesterday 23:45 GMT on Sunday September 4th :("

Small typo, big difference...

[Deadnature]

My heart also says go with the new CBM, especially since it's likely to be adopted for most/all future games. My brain is too tired to say something, so heart wins!

[llamabeast]

Huh, frustrating delay due to lack of a copy of Excel to make final changes to the Forging Reference. Should be out in a day or two.

[sansanjuan]

My heart says go CBM 1.9 but my heads says no, play it safe for this game and go 1.9.x for the next :)



I am fine either way.
-ssj

[WraithLord]

llamabeast, in such things it's better not to hurry. Still, I'm looking forward to the release.

Guys, the server is stuck so anyway we can't start the game. It thus makes sense to wait a day or two to at least take a look at CBM 1.9 change log and then vote.

[WraithLord]

ok guys. CBM 1.9 is not out yet and the server is up again. How about sending in the rest of the pretenders and starting the game? :)

[llamabeast]

Will be out this afternoon. :)

[WraithLord]

Oh you devil ;)

I thought you'd make my life easy by waiting a few more days :D

ok ok. Let's take a look and wait for the players to vote their preference.

[WraithLord]

ok. the changes from CBM1.9 seems to be quite important, not the very least: "- Boosts to a number of weak nations. EA & MA Agartha, MA Ulm, MA Man, EA Vanheim and EA Helheim in particular benefitted. Other nations to receive some changes include Marverni, Tir na n'Og and Eriu. Great effort has been put in to make the changes interesting and thematic. For example with MA Agartha the challenge was to increase the power of the nation while maintaining an overall theme of sorrow and loss. Hopefully this has been successful. These nations should have gained not only raw power but also diversity of choices. "

So I vote for CBM1.9.So far We have 2 Ayes, 0 nays and 1 neutral.

[wonderloss]

I am neutral.

[GFSnl]

Aye

[Bullock]

I'm confident in the llama's work.

Aye

[llamabeast]

If you want to use it, then what I recommend you do is make a copy of CB1.9.dm called YARG3.dm. Then if any major bugs are found we can always distribute a new YARG3.dm with the fixes. Of course I really hope that won't be necessary! One major bug's been found in 1.9 (awesome tower shields for Ulm), but I'll be releasing a fixed version imminently.

[WraithLord]

Good idea, crossed my mind too - just with a different name Y3_CB1.9.dm :)
So far We have 4 Ayes, 0 nays and 2 neutrals.

It looks like we're going the CB1.9 direction. I'll wait another day to give enough time for the players who want to vote.
After that, if we go 1.9, I'll make a specific copy to our game as llama has kindly suggested. In this case, you will need to redo and resend your pretenders with that mod.

[Stagger Lee]

I'm good either way. Gonna download it now. :up:

[sansanjuan]

I easy = I'm neutral.


So the yarg3.dm mod will contain CBM 1.9 but not ENP2 1.02 ? Also, assuming we go 1.9 we should all resend pretenders?
-ssj

[Aethyr]

Aye

[don_Pablo]

I'm neutral.

[Executor]

Neutral

[Curious Yellow]

True neutral.

[yandav]

Neutral.

[llamabeast]

You don't actually need to resend pretenders but I highly recommend you all do, particularly if you're playing one of the affected nations. But everyone got the scales change, so it's probably worth at least reviewing your design.

[WraithLord]

We have 5 Ayes, 0 nays, 7 neutrals and 6 abstains. unless all 6 of the abstains say no we're going with CBM1.9.

sansanjuan, yes to both your questions. To keep it simple and avoid any chance of error I'll delete all the sent pretenders once the decision is made.

Seeing the direction we're going I'll go ahead and attach the Y3_CB1.9.dm to the OP (it is currently set to 1.91).

EDIT: Add yandav's vote.

[ghoul31]

aye

[rdonj]

Given the amount of changes in CBM 1.9, it looks like players may need some extra time to work out their pretender builds. So please be patient while people look into the changes and adjust their builds accordingly when it comes time to submit pretenders.

[Executor]

Indeed. I personally won't have time to rebuild mt pretender and check all the CBM changes and how they affect me at least before Monday.

[Slobby]

" **bug alert** Hero's Blade and Spider Poison(from Machaka's Swarm of Spiders) share #weapon 725. As such, those spiders are each tiny heroes, slaughtering all the 'big folk' in their path. Also Hero's Blade does stun damage and can be resisted with Poison Resistance. "

From other forum, dunno, 1.9 seems buggy...RAND game breaking buggy?...dunno.

EDIT; agree with Executor need the weekend to pore over the changes.

[llamabeast]

That bug will be fixed in 1.92. Going to wait for the end of the weekend for any other bug reports before I release it. However you can go ahead and design pretenders with 1.91, it wont make any difference to them.

[WraithLord]

ok. we're a go for CBM 1.9. I'll update OP accordingly.

Clearly, everyone needs more time to build their pretenders according to 1.9 so how about we aim to start the game this Wednesday?

Don't forget. Use the Y3_CB1.9.dm! This way I'll be able to distribute the fixes (1.92 and onward) w/o the need to redo pretenders or break the game.

I'll also go ahead and remove all current pretenders. Just to be on the safe side.

[tratorix]

Pretenders should be given nations name!

So, for example, if I was playing Yomi, I would name my god Yomi? Just to make sure I'm not misunderstanding this.

Also, could you link ENP2 in the OP? I want to make sure I have the most up to date version.

[Stagger Lee]

Pretenders should be given nations name!

So, for example, if I was playing Yomi, I would name my god Yomi? Just to make sure I'm not misunderstanding this.


Yes

[WraithLord]

Yes.

Also, ENP2 link is already in the OP :)

[tratorix]

Alright nevermind then, apparently I'm just blind. :doh:

[WraithLord]

"
Game: YARG3
Middle Age, max 18 players
Players so far: 11
"

7 more to go.

[WraithLord]

"
Game: YARG3
Middle Age, max 18 players
Players so far: 16
"
2 to go.

Let's aim to send the 1st turn today.

[WraithLord]

Fellow players. Please note that CB 1.92 is released. I have attached it to the OP as Y3_CB1.9.dm. Please make sure to replace the .dm you have!

I will also ask llamabeast to kindly copy it over to the server since currently the server doesn't expose such operations.

[sansanjuan]

Fellow players. Please note that CB 1.92 is released. I have attached it to the OP as Y3_CB1.9.dm. Please make sure to replace the .dm you have!

I will also ask llamabeast to kindly copy it over to the server since currently the server doesn't expose such operations.

So players should redesign pretenders under 1.92 even if they've already designed them under 1.91?
ssj

[WraithLord]

Absolutely no!

This is the very reason this ploy was used. The only action item is to update the Y3_CB1.9.dm with the new copy from the OP.

[WraithLord]

All pretenders are in. I'll start the game in a few hours.

[Bullock]

i think there is a problem.
I can see several VP side by side. Do i have the wrong map?
Or i miss something ?

[WraithLord]

Bullock, Please PM rdonj. He is the admin and should decide such matters.
Just in case, make sure you use the map attached to the OP.

EDIT: ok, since this info. doesn't infringe on ID disclosure I guess it can be discussed here.
I took a look at the map and indeed found two sets of adjacent VPs: 108+139, 125+145. Yucks. How can that be? :(
Doesn't dom know not to assign two adjacent starting points?
Anyway, I think this is a blocking problem and hope some solution could be found.

[danbo]

I see at least 22 VP on the map which is more than number of players. I did a test where I created a game with 18 human controlled players and victory conditions set to 1 vp per capital. But for some nations I still had neighbouring neutral VP province.

[WraithLord]

Thanks Danbo. So this actually looks like a server problem when generating the game.

AFAIR I created the game like this:

VPs required to win: 9 Cumulative VPs: off
VPs in capitals: Yes

VPs scattered on map (in addition to any given in the map file):
0

Note that for the latter (VPs scattered on map) 0 is the default so all I had to do is not touch.

I think it's time to contact the higher powers -> llama :)

[llamabeast]

Tada! :)

I'll take a look this evening.

[WraithLord]

Just to be on the safe side I've added 24h to hosting.

llamabeast, thanks 4 your help. Perhaps it would be a nice idea to expose game generation logs and turn processing errors (if any) to the admin. This may help to save your precious time for more important stuff.

[danbo]

As far as I can see our rogue vp's are hardcoded in the map, so they appear even if number of VP's is set to 0. So, I think we have two possible choices. Either we remove the points from the map and restart the game or put up with it and continue. But in the latter case the game obviously will be shorter and some players will have preferences due to their start position near VP.

[WraithLord]

danbo, what is the keyword specifying hard coded VP?

I prefer to restart the game. It should be painless. I fix the map. Un-start the game. UL and chg the fixed map and restart. and voila one good YARG3 ready to roll.

If all this is true then I'm sorry for pointing a finger at you and at your loyal server llama.

[WraithLord]

phew. Is it #victorypoints thingi?
If so I'll fix the map by removing them. Please LMK ASAP.

[danbo]

WraithLord, I don't know map syntax but after I've deleted all the #victorypoints lines from the map code and created new test game all the excess VPs were gone.

[WraithLord]

ok. I'm going to fix this based on your input.

Muchas gracias!!!

[WraithLord]

1st step. Fixed map attached to OP.
All, please use it.

next. fix game :)

[WraithLord]

ok. looks like we're good to go.
see settings:
"
Pretenders so far: 18
Max pretenders: 18
Map: Orania MP
Mods: ENP2, ver 1.02, YARG3 CBM 1.9
Middle Age
Independent strength 9
Score graphs on
Hall of fame size 15
Research on Difficult
VPs required for victory: 9
VPs in capitals
All other settings on default
"

I'm going to press the red button.

[WraithLord]

Game restarted.

GL all :)

[rdonj]

Had to add a delay to this turn for a couple of people, so it's a bit of a long one.

[don_Pablo]

Who was Abyssia?

[rdonj]

Abysia was played by Ghoul31.

[Deadnature]

so I guess that means we are getting assigned new nations?

[Deadnature]

don't answer that, I see abysia was defeated...I understand now.

[Bullock]

That's weird it seems i can't refresh this post (i saw the message from Rdonj in my mails but not here...)

Anyway i was Al-Nadim and very disappointed to not make it further.
But i've been stomped by Marignon's cavalry and didn't start the right research to counter them. Nasty Ctis take the opportunity of my weakness to grab few lands either.

Good luck to all the remaining pretenders.

[rdonj]

Yeah someone else wrote the message for me, then deleted it later and didn't put it back up. Oops.

In any case I hope you've had fun and enjoyed the game! Even if you didn't get to last a little longer.

[Executor]

YARG hosting in 11 hours.
I think something may be off.

[GFSnl]

Go to:

http://www.llamaserver.net/gameinfo.cgi?game=YARG3

and click: 'Request turn resend'

to get your turn.

[Executor]

I have my turn, the fact that the game hosted around 10 hours ago and that it's about to host in less than 10 is odd, especially since we're on a 48 hour schedule.

[WraithLord]

Right. It was about to host in 3 hours. I took care of that. Thx 4 the heads up.

[rdonj]

I did make an attempt to postpone the game, but I don't think it went through the llamaserver because the turn should not have been hosting until sometime today. If you're experiencing some sort of problem with the game please pm me about it, otherwise my response time will be much lower.

[llamabeast]

Is it all okay now? I think I sorted stuff last night but I was a bit under the weather and forgot to post here.

[WraithLord]

Looks peachy :)

see:
Game: YARG3
Turn number 30
Next turn due: 09:05 GMT on Monday November 7th

This game is managed on Shrapnel forums. Please don't join it if you haven't subscribed in the game thread - http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?p=782724#post782724

Arcoscephale 2h file received
Shinuyama 2h file received
Bandar Log 2h file received
C'tis 2h file received
Eriu Waiting for 2h file
Ashdod Waiting for 2h file
Man 2h file received
Marignon 2h file received
Pangaea 2h file received
T'ien Ch'i 2h file received
Ulm Waiting for 2h file
Vanheim 2h file received
Shangri-La 2h file received
Svarogia Waiting for 2h file
Arga Dis Waiting for 2h file
Pythium Waiting for 2h file

Last updated at 20:07 GMT on Friday November 4th
Current time: 20:07 GMT

[WraithLord]

OP updated with identity of defeated players.

[Executor]

Maybe we should get someone to set Pythium AI.

[WraithLord]

I could set to send his turn to our admin (if he'd kindly give it to me). Then rdonj could set him AI.

[Squirrelloid]

I subbed briefly and while doing so looked at the scoregraphs.

You may wish to run future YARG games at regular or even easy research. The dominant nations are almost entirely those which require little research for a strong early game. Your settings are biasing game performance in a rather substantial manner.

[WraithLord]

Interesting observation. The thing is, how come YARG1 was won by LA Van (pre CBM goodies for Van) & YARG2 by TC. Would you say that they have as strong early game as a solid bless nation?

How come some bless nations did poorly in this game?- Do they have poor early game?

I'm not saying you're wrong. I have doubts as well but I want to make sure before asserting that this is so.

[Executor]

I'm inclined to agree with Squirrelloid, tho I myself prefer hard research settings.
It's hard for me to explain why without pointing fingers at certain nations here so I'll refrain from it till the games end.
But I'll say this, hard research tends to favor certain nations a hell of a lot more than others.

BTW, I wouldn't say EA TC needs much research and indeed falls into a bless nation category. Psycho played TC and had a rather good with warriors of the five elements if I remember.

[WraithLord]

I'm all for a good discussion on this once this game ends. Other than making the game interesting (by this twist to the settings) I have no preference this way or the other.

[Squirrelloid]

Interesting observation. The thing is, how come YARG1 was won by LA Van (pre CBM goodies for Van) & YARG2 by TC. Would you say that they have as strong early game as a solid bless nation?

How come some bless nations did poorly in this game?- Do they have poor early game?

I'm not saying you're wrong. I have doubts as well but I want to make sure before asserting that this is so.

Those are (and were) strong early game nations. And Van only got goodies because of a nerf that happened after those games too (removing hammers hurt thug nations a lot, adn removing SDRs inordinately impacted Van with its hyper-inefficient hunters).

I will also refrain from saying more while a game is in progress.

[Stagger Lee]

So much for redemption! Arco signing out. Good luck all! :cool:

[WraithLord]

Thank you for playing Stagger Lee. I'm looking fwd to seeing you in YARG4 and to hearing your opinion re. the settings.

[Slobby]

Maybe we should get someone to set Pythium AI.

I second the motion.

[WraithLord]

I'll do something about it - as in look for a volunteer to get the turn and set Pyth to AI.

EDIT: rdonj, could you please divulge the identity of Pythium player with us?

[WraithLord]

We're in luck, Dimaz has graciously agreed to turn Pythium to AI.

[rdonj]

Pythium was played by Deadnature.

[WraithLord]

Thanks. OP updated.

[WraithLord]

Added 48h due to server troubles.

[TwoBits]

Things look really weird at Llamaserver. The game appears to have already hosted, even though it was not due to do so, I think until around 18:00 on the 4th.

Plus, it seems that several races have mysteriously "disappeared".

[Executor]

I don't think the game hosted. Score graphs still seem to be in order, no changes.

[llamabeast]

I'm worried this game may have hosted erroneously. Many apologies if it did - a rollback may be in order.

Those nations which didn't submit seem to have been removed from the staling record (a really weird and unexpected bug), which adds a bit to the confusion.

[rdonj]

It sounds like there's been pretty significant damage one, and I haven't heard any objections against a rollback yet, so I'm going to go ahead with it. One rollback coming up, hopefully there won't be too much rethinking of turns in light of the rollback or any other unexpected issues.

[WraithLord]

llamabeast, thank you for the heads up and for handling the recent problems.

Those of us who don't want to modify their turns, can we rest assure that the previously sent .2h files are stored on the server?- Or would you recommend to resend the .2h files?

[rdonj]

Resend your files just in case, I don't quite remember how it's supposed to work and it's better safe than sorry.

[Executor]

As I remember resending the turns is the worst possible scenario. Redoing the turn from scratch was the recommended procedure unless you wanted the game to crash.
I do however think Llamaserver stores the turns already sent and will use them on hosting, but don't take my word for it.

[Executor]

Well, here are the instruction anyway:


This will cause the game to return to the previous turn.

Note that I generally recommend not doing this. The main reason for this is the fact that players have already seen the current turn, and so they know what would happen given the set of moves they used last time. Hence, consciously or not, they are very likely to use this information to change their actions next time they submit a turn. Even assuming none of the players' actions are affected, there will always be a suspicion in the mind of the other players if battles turn out significantly differently. Therefore just in the interest of having the game feel completely fair, I think rollbacks are a bad idea.

A further reason is a difficulty with game file confusion. Imagine turn 10 has just come out, and someone starts to play the turn. Then the game is rolled back to turn 9, and processed again to make a new turn 10. Unless players delete the 2h file they produced from the original turn 10, Dominions will not know to ignore it and may get seriously confused. This can cause a lot of madness, e.g. soldiers becoming commanders and gaining magic paths, and so on. So if you do do a rollback, make sure to remind players to delete their 2h files.

Having said that, there are situations where rollbacks are called for, which is why I've included the option here.

Read this next bit carefully. I seem to be having difficulties explaining it coherently:

Note that once the game is rolled back, it will appear that the game is waiting for 2h files from all players. However, the 2h files from last time the turn was played will in fact be there, and will be used if the game hosts without them being overwritten. This can be useful; often, a game is rehosted in order for only one or two players to retake their turns, while everyone else is expected to make no changes. The game admin can therefore wait till just those players have submitted, and then force hosting. None of the other players will stale (assuming they actually submitted a 2h file last time the turn was played).

I hope all that makes sense!


So I guess only those who staled should send in turns, and whoever started the new turn (I think some nations sent in turn 39 already) should delete the files before downloading the new turn.

[rdonj]

Resending files is definitely the worst case in a situation where the game had an issue. There shouldn't be a problem with fixing the current problem, and the instructions in the llamaserver about deleting files is for the new, useless files for the turn that was rolled back. Those definitely should be deleted. It's best if you don't make alterations to the sent in turn if it's not necessary though. Anyway thanks for linking the actual message, its been a while since I've read it.

[WraithLord]

I'm aware of this: "Note that once the game is rolled back, it will appear that the game is waiting for 2h files from all players. However, the 2h files from last time the turn was played will in fact be there, and will be used if the game hosts without them being overwritten."

My concern is that, due to server problem, the 2h files from last turn will not be there. In which case, all who didn't stale last host will stale now. I guess we could do a 2nd roll back if that were to happen.

[WraithLord]

What a turn, on the 40th month three nations fell: TC, Bandar Log (and finally - Pythium AI).

Who were TC and Bandar?

[wonderloss]

I was Bandar Log.

[rdonj]

And TC was played by tratorix.

[Curious Yellow]

Who was Man?

[don_Pablo]

Aethyr subbed by Squirrelloid?

[rdonj]

Err, sorry, didn't notice the new page. But yes don_pablo is correct.

[Six]

poor rdonj, trying to keep this all straight without actually being in the game =)

I had no idea who I was subbing for, but i took over Man on turn 29.

[WraithLord]

OP updated. we're down to 11.

[Executor]

Nearly half way down a?
I've got a sneaking suspicion who the rest of the players are...

[yandav]

I was the shameful ruler of Shangri-La.

[sansanjuan]

Arga Dis here. (set AI today with one non-fort prov left)

I had a great time playing and very much looking forward to YARG4.

My brief YARG-sanitised AAR.... (mainly fashonable whining on my starting cap spot ;) )

On drawing Arga Dis from the pool my initial reaction was.. "Arga..... who??". I must say I ended up being very happy with this mod nation. In my 6 or 7 solo Indy-9 test games I was always 18+ provs (with three or so blood hunting sites) by the end of year 1 with a fort or two in production. No awake SC needed for this nation so I went uber scales... blood and money. I did play one SP Arga Dis to end game against the hordes of a dozen "impossible" AIs to gauge effectiveness in some massive clashes. Arga Dis does very well in that arena.

Turn one of the restarted game saw me looking at beachfront property "#$@!" with no way to get underwater for many many moons. Only 4 provs to draw resources from to build out my armies.

Turn two revealed that two of the 4 remaining cap adjacent provs were specials and waaay beyond any year one armies. This left me with 2 provs to draw resources from in the near term. (sigh)

Turn three (crushed barbarians in cap adjacent prov)

Turn four... attack woodsmen and.. the damned woodsmen have unscouted air mages :doh:). My spartans go through a giant bug zapper. Prov taken but starting army decimated. (sigh)

end of year one tally.. 7 provinces, well below my 15 or so worst case scenario but.. still having fun.

The rest of the ARR can wait for you all to finish. Things look to be getting interesting. Good luck all.

ssj

[GFSnl]

Aarghh....

I'm dead :(

I had the pleasure of playing Marignon. With a coastal starting position and between two of the largest nations I had no choice but to attack Al-Nadim in the Early game. When he resisted mightily I was doomed and eventually conquered by others without having much influence on the world.

Alas, next Yarg will be better :).

[WraithLord]

Thank you guys for playing until the end.

For GFSnl to be out the competition must be mighty fierce :shock:

I'm glad you like the settings. We can do some modifications for YARG4 according to your feedback so plz make you opinion heard.

OP updated.

[Bullock]

Hey glad to hear i fought mightily lol.
i feel less shameful to know i ve been kicked that early by GFSnl ;)

[Executor]

Interestingly enough I'd still bet money on any of the top 6 nations...

[Executor]

Rdonj, perhaps you could invite (PM) someone to join the game? Maybe some defeated nation?

BTW, Ashdod gone, down to 7. :)

[WraithLord]

Who was Ashdod?

[rdonj]

Executor - I did find two potential subs, so that's good now... I think.

And ashdod was played by danbo!

[WraithLord]

OP updated.

Still playing:
1. WraithLord
3. TwoBits
4. Executor
7. Slobby
8. don_Pablo
13. mockingbird
15. Curious Yellow

I am most curios as to who is who. Oh the suspense...

[sansanjuan]

Hey guys... HURRY UP and finish already! ;) Some of us are waiting for YARG4...
ssj

[Executor]

WL, might I suggest keeping the timer on 96 hours until someone suggests otherwise? This game's been on for over half a year now and we're still not near completion. Delays are still going to be asked and probably a Llamaserver delay from time to time. Might be better not to unnecessarily increase the hosting period.

[WraithLord]

Sounds good to me. Any objections anyone?

[Executor]

Rejoice! A true God has ascended!
Thank God (me :p) for that. The mirco started to became a real issue for me around turn 60ish. I started to lose interest in the game somewhere along my war with Shiny. The last few turns were critical too, was ready to leave the game at one point but decided against it as it would be really ****ing unfair.

Well I think this game is a perfect example to how ridiculous Ulm with the Forge is. I hope this will be enough to convince people to remove it from Ulm. A random no diplo game was probably the best circumstance to test it under.

WL, I assume you're Vanheim? I recognized your play style. I'm wondering what made you cast AC finally?
I'm pretty certain I could have rolled over any one of you without loses at that point in the game, and could have fought the rest of you with relative ease. The AC changed that considerably.
I was forging 50 items a turn for quite some time. Those 3 large army of mine possessed about 500 items between them total. Every turn was enough to equip a strong army of mine with good items and add a few SCs and thugs.

As for those thugs I think I had about 30-40 banes total. You completely screwed me over when casting AC btw. ;)
I planned to use the gate stone to teleport a huge army on top oif one of your forts and hide 40 banes among the troops which would arrive in the regular phase with flying bots. The next turn would have been all your provinces captured in a single turn. I planned to have you completly defeated in about 4-5 tuns time. Kinda pissed off I never had the change to do that. :(

All in all I think game was pretty insane for me. I hit the 32000 research around turn 45. I could have done it faster but there was no point since I was the clear leader in research. Actually hit const 8 on turn 30 with hard research which I think stands for something. At one point I probably had over 100 lanterns. 100 gems for 600 research, another ridiculous thing.
Most of the items I could forge were laughably cheap. At one point I calculated that I could summon and equipped several thugs and a complete army with a load of stuff at the price of one your thugs or SCs.
It's quite possible that I forged over 1000 items over the course of the game. For a long time I recruited nothing but commander in every single province I could just so I could distribute bows, and other stuff to commanders. BTW, I could never recruit as many commanders as I could equip.

Best commanders to recruit was always spies. Give them bows and drag them along in hidding than reveal that at important battles. I think I won some major battle with Ashdod and Shiny that way. At one point I switched completely to them instead of mages. It was fun watching Vans and Svarogias income cut in half.

Anyway, it's been an interesting game to say the least. I hope all that transpired in it is enough to remove the Forge from Ulm.
I would also like to congratulate the rest of you all for joining up against the leader. I've never seen that happen in a no diplo game and wasn't really expecting it.

Rdonj, give me the names of my adversaries please!

[WraithLord]

Congrats for the victory Executor!

Yes. I was Van. I wonder what were the telltale signs that gave me up?

I knew you (Ulm) would win from very early on. I wanted to enter an early war against you but Eriu jumped me and no way I'd let someone attack me and get away w/ it. So I say screw the game I'm going to make Eriu pay for his stupid move and if Ulm wins (more easily than otherwise) then so be it.

You are absolutely right about Ulm and I think llama is also in agreement so we will see a fix in next CBM.

I've seen most nations fight very well and to the end. It was a high end game in terms of players skills and really enjoyed it (though I knew the end result from early on).

Van is a solid nation now which is a good thing.

Now I'm looking fwd to YARG4.
Hope to see as many of you there. You too Executor - I just pray to fate that you don't get an OP nation :p

[WraithLord]

BTW, I had a strong suspicion you were Ulm b/c of the murderous effectiveness Ulm's armies exhibited. I'd have been surprised had another name came as Ulm leader :)

[Valerius]

Congrats, Executor! I've been keeping an eye on this game ever since I noticed mid-game that three nations that got boosts in the latest CBM were among the game leaders.

WL, I haven't played MA Van but based on my experiences with EA Van (not as good as MA IMO) I agree completely that they are a strong nation. What build did you go with? Light bless with good scales and some magic diversity?

Exec, do you think the only problem with Ulm is their Forge? I wonder how many of the games they won since the release of 1.92 they ended up casting their Forge before the game was already decided.

[mockingbird]

Congratulations on the win!

I ended up with what is probably my least favorite nation in the game, got attacked and stuck in an early war that crippled me, accidentally started another war with a larger power through a movement mistake, and spent the rest of the game trying to figure out a way to be relevant.

All in all, a good game. :)

[Calahan]

Congrats on the win Ex. When I subbed in (see next) I did think you were Van for a turn or two (mainly because I thought WL looked like Ulm given the battles I saw), but then a few signs pointed to you being Ulm. Can't remember what they were exactly, most likely is I'm fairly sure I've played more games with you than any other player, so if I can't spot you quickly by now then there's something wrong with me! (or you've managed to change styles!). After that I instantly nailed WL as Van, as I could see no way he was C'tis (graphs indicated C'tis was way too turtley and passive for WL). And there was no way I had taken over for WL as my nation was a joke which WL would never has signed his name to...


I subbed in as Svarogia for half a dozen turns or so, entirely to repay a favour or two to rdonj from previous YARG games. The sudden upward turn-around in the graphs, followed by an equally sudden and rapid decline, will likely give away the turns I played ;) The nation was a complete mess though, and no idea how it had gained as much land as it had. The original player, whoever it was, also completely failed to notice in pre-game testing that Svagoria's freespawn chaff has .66gp upkeep. Which on top of the hundreds of Cav units, and (to me) a useless "feck diversity just take scales" build meant the nation was swimming in horrendous upkeep and sucking hard from the well of stink when I took over. Not my worst ever sub experience, but certainly my worst "important nation" sub ever.

I won't go into ranty detail on the nation or the turns I played, but in brief I turned the Eriu war around to the point of booting them off land and into the sea (also had my highest ever single turn fort gain at one point :)). And was all ready to turn on Ulm when I had to sub-out and leave that for my successor(s). And apols for the clashes Van, and the things I killed (thanks for the Arch Devil though). Although I really have to ask why you moved your death stack towards the Eriu cap after taking that Eriu fort on our border? As that sent me such a negative signal that it meant instead of moving all my stacks towards Ulm as I had planned, I had to re-route them to the Eriu cap as I thought you'd had a brain freeze and was trying to challenge me for it. This resulted in a 2-turn delay of a strike on Ulm. Doubt it would have made much difference, but it certainly made some. (partly because I would have still been playing to do the first strike, and first two turns of war)

No idea how the Svagoria VPs fell at the end. I left whoever with 2 Master Enslavers that I was hoping would have been able to deal with an army of Ulm national troops, and enough Astral mages to deal with solo SC storm attempts. But then not too surprised Svarogia were the ones coughing up the VP's, since as far as I could tell the nation was just an illusion of strength built on wet tissue paper. And I'm very certain Ulm or Van could have walked through Svarogia with ease at the point I joined the frey. (and even when I left they were no match for the top two)

[rdonj]

Good game everyone, and congrats to executor for the win. With turns like that, you really do need those week long hosting timers :P

Here's the list of nations:

1. WraithLord Vanheim, Arrival of Man
2. Stagger Lee Arcoscephale, The Old Kingdom
3. TwoBits Svarogia, Dark Forests by Executor
4. Executor Ulm, Forges of Ulm
5. wonderloss Bandar Log, Land of the Apes
6. ghoul31 Abysia, Blood and Fire
7. Slobby Shinuyama, Land of the Bakemono
8. don_Pablo C'tis, Miasma
9. danbo Ashdod, Reign of the Anakim
10. tratorix T'ien Ch'i, Imperial Bureaucracy
11. sansanjuan Arga Dis, Blood of Warriors by Sombre
12. GFSnl Marignon, Fiery Justice
13. mockingbird Pangaea, Age of Bronze
14. Deadnature Pythium, The Second Empire by Burnsaber
15. Curious Yellow Eriu, Last of the Tuatha
16. Aethyr Man, Tower of Avalon
17. yandav Shangri-La, Hidden City of the Secret Masters originally by Nounours,
extended and maintained by Globu
18. Bullock Al-Nadim, The Thousand and One Nights by elmokki

I don't have all of the subs written down in an easily accessible location, but the last three subs for svarogia were, in order, Calahan, BlanketThief, and Korwin. 3V4JKZ2 also subbed for svarogia at one point, and StaggerLee took over control of vanheim for WL for a few turns a while back. And Tratorix subbed for eriu after it had taken a good beating. Any other subs, I'm sorry if I've missed you, but you are all appreciated and commended for your work in keeping this mammoth game running!

[WraithLord]

Congrats, Executor! I've been keeping an eye on this game ever since I noticed mid-game that three nations that got boosts in the latest CBM were among the game leaders.

WL, I haven't played MA Van but based on my experiences with EA Van (not as good as MA IMO) I agree completely that they are a strong nation. What build did you go with? Light bless with good scales and some magic diversity?

Exec, do you think the only problem with Ulm is their Forge? I wonder how many of the games they won since the release of 1.92 they ended up casting their Forge before the game was already decided.

Oh, I tried many different builds but ended up w/:
van, King of Primordial Waters, King of Many Names, Councilor of Gods, Ruler of
the Ocean's Surface
Vanheim, Middle Era
Father of Winters (Body 1561, 88 hits)
Magic: Air 2 Water 9
Dominion 8
Scales: Order 3 Productivity 3 Cold 3 Growth 1 Misfortune 1 Magic 1
Imprisoned


It worked excellently and Van was on the top for a good part of the early+mid game and probably caused the most PITA to Ulm (AC).

I made the mistake of summoning the blood royalty. In hindsight I should have taken more cost efficient summons and earlier AC. But certainly MA Van is a strong nation as should be (nation of fierce vikings should be nothing else).

[Curious Yellow]

Wow, we can finally talk about this game now?

First off, congrats Executor on your win.

I played Eriu from the start until turn 53. One of the main lessons for me from this game was that I don't really have the stomach for lategame micro with large empires, so I burned out and subbed out. No more games with more than 6-8 players for me.

In my mind the turning point in the game was about turn 40? or so, when the Ulm-Ashdod war was winding down with Ulm on top and with an active Forge. At that point, Vanheim and Svarogia both attacked me and I felt at the time this ensured that Ulm would win. Ulm was left to turtle with the Forge and secure their holdings.

It's weird that Wraithlord rememembers it like I attacked him. I had just absorbed Man and the furthest thing from my mind at the time was war with Vanheim. The nation I wanted to go after was C'tis actually, but being attacked by Vanheim and Svarogia (which were both about my size) sealed my fate. The war started out okay, winning a few big battles but started losing a lot of small ones. Micro weariness really set in for me at that point and I didn't play as well as I could/should have.

My "war" with Pangea was the funniest part of the game for me. He couldn't find a way to kill my thugs in the field, and I had little hope of storming his maenad-filled forts with my commanders-only strategy. I took one fort by building like 5 siege golems, but didn't have a chance of putting a dent in his capital. Funny that he managed to hang on until the end of the game.

Made some mistakes with globals during the game as well. I tried overwriting Pangea's Mother Oak with like 60 extra gems, but didn't work - after that I really struggled with nature income. When war with Svarogia/Vanheim set in I tried casting Mechanical Militia, thinking it would slow down raiding - but it never came online, someone else cast a global and mine just fizzled.

By the way the 11th hour switch to CBM 1.92 kind of screwed my plans, removing awe from the Tuatha commanders. My testing showed that in order for the tuatha to be effective as expanding thugs against indies 9 with CBM 1.92, they needed to be able to self-buff barkskin. Therefore I went with an awake master druid with E9N4 + some astral/fire and terrible scales, so that I could research alteration 1 early enough to have a decent expansion. The forge bonus on the female commanders was a decent compensation though, which I made good use of later on.

[WraithLord]

Curious Yellow, I'm curious (but not yellow ;) ) why did you attack me?- You and Ulm were both in great position and the "right" move for you was to duke it out w/ him.
It was obvious to the players that Ulm was OP so you would have gotten help for sure. I was just waiting for you to make that move and join w/ you.
But instead you attacked Van - a strong nation w/ excellent income, strong armies and gr8 blood income. What was your rational anyway?- Nullify us both so Ulm would have a red carpet to victory?

Calahan, I moved that stack b/c Ctis was massing armies on my borders in that area. I wanted a military presence in the area so that my lands wouldn't seem like easy picking.
I had more "death" stacks as Ulm has found out when he invaded me. In-fact IIRC we only had one real army vs. army battle and the Vans won the day. Taking into acct significant research + equipment advantage to Ulm I'd say yes, the buggers made me proud and earned their place at Valhalla :)

[WraithLord]

Curious Yellow, you attacked me first. I remember thinking WTF, now why did he do that?- He just signed off Ulm's victory :mad:

Savorgia joined after I reacted to your attack.

[Calahan]

Calahan, I moved that stack b/c Ctis was massing armies on my borders in that area. I wanted a military presence in the area so that my lands wouldn't seem like easy picking.
I haven't got the turns to hand right now, but was the province next to the Eriu cap the only province you could move to so that you covered the C'tis angle? Wasn't that army all MM2 or MM3? And to me it seemed C'tis's movements were very consistant with simply "grabbing a bit of Eriu", and I saw no intent against Van or Svag (although you may have different intel and view). But if that is the case then it looks like we both had little faith in our neighbours :( As you moved in reaction to C'tis, and I moved in reaction to your reaction.

[Executor]

Thanks everyone.

Personally, I think you play too cautiously WL. That's something that stuck with me from our former games. I watched every single one of your battle from turn 30 onward. Actually i watched the entire map for quite some time. I had a few dozen crystal orbs and a very extensive scout/spy system going. There was nothing I didn't see.
Also monitoring the rest helped identify you too.

Valerius, apart from the Forge, which I think is the biggest problem, I also would blessing of steel too powerful. A handful of flail infantry had no problem dealing with indea 9 from the start under blessings of steel. Having a 24 protection troop is too much from start I think.
That small amount of diversity with smiths (20% A/S/F) is huge too. Not that I'd suggest removing it, it just opens up a load of new options. New forging possibilities and communions mostly (either with s smiths or trough matrixes).
In any case I'd say Ulm is one of the best MA nation, if not all era nations.

mockingbird, god damn I hated you dude. All I wanted was those two slots for global spells. I just couldn't figure out a way to kill your pretender not to mention breach the fort. It would have taken me a hundred gate cleavers.

Calahan, I noticed instantly that a new player had taken over Svarogia. You even got me scared there for a moment but then I realized there wasn't anything really dangerous in your possession.
As to how Svarogia fell and how I obtained the 3 or rather 4 last VPs;
Shiny cap was the first to go. It was rather easy to take as Shiny had most of his troops in the adjacent fort.

The second fort, Eriu, fell to about 500 teleported troops (gate stone and astral travel) and a few mages and a SC. There was nothing in the fort to protect it and no troops near so it was easy taking.
The other Svarogia fort was Man, which fell to troops, commanders, mages, thugs and SCs. Not too large an army though and it was a tough battle too. Could have lost that one.
The third fort for the win was Al Nadin (C'tis). There was no chance in hell any army could have protected that fort. I had just too many stuff in that army.

And the fail safe capital was Bandar Log. (Van) Also a heck of a lot of stuff in it.

Curious Yellow, and there I was actually thinking on joining the war on your side until Shiny attacked me. Well, rather tried to sneak in troops into my lands which resulted in me attacking him. I even gave him a turns change to withdrew the troops but he moved them further in.

Actually, the only nation I attacked in this game was TC. And that was a hilarious war. I attack TC, Ashdod joins in from the other side and grabs a few provinces. Than Ashdod completly ignores TC and attacks me while I'm still in was with TC. (Note that TC is right in the middle of us). And we spend the next 15 turns fighting around and over TC until I managed to kill him off eventually with superior research.

WL, as per that battle, I didn't expect you to have that many (hidden) stuff there. Especially after losing those Treants and some other stuff the turn before I think?
Anyway, it was a nice battle, and you won it but I think you actually suffered more loses from it than me. :)

I'd kinda like an underdog nation in the next game.

[WraithLord]

Let there be no doubt. On turn 45 CY's Eriu attacked me in two provinces: 155 + 142.
This in a no diplo game is a one way ticket to war and given the context a fairly stupid move. You may have won the game or had a much better chance had you attacked Ulm instead.

[WraithLord]

Calahan, I moved that stack b/c Ctis was massing armies on my borders in that area. I wanted a military presence in the area so that my lands wouldn't seem like easy picking.
I haven't got the turns to hand right now, but was the province next to the Eriu cap the only province you could move to so that you covered the C'tis angle? Wasn't that army all MM2 or MM3? And to me it seemed C'tis's movements were very consistant with simply "grabbing a bit of Eriu", and I saw no intent against Van or Svag (although you may have different intel and view). But if that is the case then it looks like we both had little faith in our neighbours :( As you moved in reaction to C'tis, and I moved in reaction to your reaction.

Was it province 127?- If so, I moved there b/c earlier I grabbed from Eriu a good chunk of land to the south. When I saw Ctis making a quick grab for these lands I moved this army as sort of a "stop" go no further sign.

[WraithLord]

"Personally, I think you play too cautiously WL. That's something that stuck with me from our former games. I watched every single one of your battle from turn 30 onward. Actually i watched the entire map for quite some time. I had a few dozen crystal orbs and a very extensive scout/spy system going. There was nothing I didn't see.
Also monitoring the rest helped identify you too. "
You're probably right. I play chess a lot and that game taught me the benefits of caution. Perhaps it doesn't translate well to dom...

"WL, as per that battle, I didn't expect you to have that many (hidden) stuff there. Especially after losing those Treants and some other stuff the turn before I think?
Anyway, it was a nice battle, and you won it but I think you actually suffered more loses from it than me. "
Yes the treants were lost b/c of your unexpected attack. But in this battle my losses were not big, my dead commanders were reanimated due to LaD spell. And I got a huge list of "xyz got this and that item" messages :D

[Executor]

Yeah, I assumed you picked up a nice amount of my items.:mad:

[Calahan]

I also would blessing of steel too powerful. A handful of flail infantry had no problem dealing with indea 9 from the start under blessings of steel. Having a 24 protection troop is too much from start I think.




Calahan, I noticed instantly that a new player had taken over Svarogia. You even got me scared there for a moment but then I realized there wasn't anything really dangerous in your possession.
As to how Svarogia fell and how I obtained the 3 or rather 4 last VPs;
Shiny cap was the first to go. It was rather easy to take as Shiny had most of his troops in the adjacent fort.




The second fort, Eriu, fell to about 500 teleported troops (gate stone and astral travel) and a few mages and a SC. There was nothing in the fort to protect it and no troops near so it was easy taking.
The other Svarogia fort was Man, which fell to troops, commanders, mages, thugs and SCs. Not too large an army though and it was a tough battle too. Could have lost that one.
The third fort for the win was Al Nadin (C'tis). There was no chance in hell any army could have protected that fort. I had just too many stuff in that army.
Yeah, the Blessing of Iron spell is another misjudged addition IMO. Any new spell that adds battlefield wide buffs has to be added with /extreme/ caution due to the huge force multiplying effect it can instantly have. But to add such spells from turn 1 is just a balance breakingly bad idea IMO. At least make these spell require some fecking reaserch if they are staying (and I hope they're not personally, as adding national battlefield wide buff spells is not a good way to go for any nation), and cost some gems to cast (such as Kailasa's national Quickness spell).



I was wondering why Shiny had that mass stock of troops (vamps mainly) next to their cap? Was there any purpose for that you know?



So did Svar send nothing to defend those VP forts? Did you see no sign of the Master Enslavers? No sign of the Grend Prophet via the Boots of Planes I pinched? No mass arrivals of any A2 cap mages? Nothing at all showed up? No Demon armies? No nothing? How sad :(

[Valerius]

But certainly MA Van is a strong nation as should be (nation of fierce vikings should be nothing else).

I agree; it's nice to see them back in strength after a long decline beginning with the great glamour nerf in a patch.

Your build is similar to my EA Van build (bless + scales) except I went with E4N4 instead, which gave me a couple more scales. But I did end up regretting not getting some S on my pretender since I could find absolutely no S mages throughout the game.

[Executor]

No idea why Shiny never used his vamps.
I think his vamp queen met an untimely end in one battle where he tried to RoS or earthquake my large army but failed due to a first turn army of gold and got killed in the process. I had converted the province by that time.

There was an attempt to stop my army at Eriu but it failed. I don't think Svarogia realized I was going for the win until it was too late. No teleported mages also.

As for Man capital, there wasn't much stuff, but there were S mages and the master enslave Arch Devil there. Mainly, I had to defeat my own army there to capture the fort. :)

As for the boots of plains. **** that was a stupid mistake! My Bane Lord got attacked twice that turn by Horrors (bet you didn't know you could get attacked multiple times by horrors under AC? Well, neither did I! Nearly lost my pretender that way).
Managed to kill a Doom Horror in the first round but got killed in the second by a regular large Horror.
Anyway, I changed his damn battle orders to attack instantly, forgetting Armor of Virtue would not react in this case since it has a retarded AoE1 returning autocast mechanism that takes a turn.:(

Oh, yes, btw, (this one can go into the Hall of Doh) I also managed to lose Al Kazim to a bunch of tritons. Yes, an equipped buffed Al Kazim lost to about 50 tritons due to a lucky shot and damn poison.

[Calahan]

Calahan, I moved that stack b/c Ctis was massing armies on my borders in that area. I wanted a military presence in the area so that my lands wouldn't seem like easy picking.
I haven't got the turns to hand right now, but was the province next to the Eriu cap the only province you could move to so that you covered the C'tis angle? Wasn't that army all MM2 or MM3? And to me it seemed C'tis's movements were very consistant with simply "grabbing a bit of Eriu", and I saw no intent against Van or Svag (although you may have different intel and view). But if that is the case then it looks like we both had little faith in our neighbours :( As you moved in reaction to C'tis, and I moved in reaction to your reaction.

Was it province 127?- If so, I moved there b/c earlier I grabbed from Eriu a good chunk of land to the south. When I saw Ctis making a quick grab for these lands I moved this army as sort of a "stop" go no further sign.
Turn 66 - I took out Eriu's cap PD with Zmey's.

Turn 67 - You captured the Eriu fort at 169 with a significant army, and captured 156 with a bunch of Treants (a former Svag province it seems given site search info). While on the same turn I stormed the Eriu cap.

Turn 68 - I capture the Eriu cap and a huge force of yours arrives in 156 (the prov next to Eriu cap), made up of mainly the large force that captured 169. I am then forced to converge a large force on the Eriu cap to hold the walls in case you attack. (I was seriously thinking of attacking Ulm this turn while Shiny still had some life left, but this made me forget all about that)

Turn 69 - Your large force moves away to 164 (I think) and I send my converged force in Eriu out back in the direction of Ulm where they mostly came from.


So it was your large troop arrival in 156 on turn 68 that sent me the wrong vibes.

[Calahan]

bet you didn't know you could get attacked multiple times by horrors under AC?
Oh I knew that :) as rdonj can testify in the huge dossier I left for successor ;)

[Valerius]

Valerius, apart from the Forge, which I think is the biggest problem, I also would blessing of steel too powerful. A handful of flail infantry had no problem dealing with indea 9 from the start under blessings of steel. Having a 24 protection troop is too much from start I think.
That small amount of diversity with smiths (20% A/S/F) is huge too. Not that I'd suggest removing it, it just opens up a load of new options. New forging possibilities and communions mostly (either with s smiths or trough matrixes).
In any case I'd say Ulm is one of the best MA nation, if not all era nations.

Yeah, the Blessing of Iron spell is another misjudged addition IMO. Any new spell that adds battlefield wide buffs has to be added with /extreme/ caution due to the huge force multiplying effect it can instantly have. But to add such spells from turn 1 is just a balance breakingly bad idea IMO. At least make these spell require some fecking reaserch if they are staying (and I hope they're not personally, as adding national battlefield wide buff spells is not a good way to go for any nation), and cost some gems to cast (such as Kailasa's national Quickness spell).

Along the lines of having spells available from turn 1 what about the "Iron Fears Not x" elemental resistance spells? Having them available from turn 1 seems too much. It's a bit like awe on Ri/Tuatha - later in the game this wouldn't be a problem but from turn 1...

I agree that the better magic diversity is a big deal but worth keeping.

It's also occurred to me that because of the way forging costs round Ulm comes out ahead with the removal of hammers when it comes to inexpensive items because their forging costs don't go up by as much as other nations. For instance, without hammers 5 gem items increase by 1 gem for Ulm but 2 gems for non-forge bonus nations, which is a relative advantage for Ulm.

Btw, Exec, how much did you use Iron Angels?

I think this is a very useful game to provide feedback on 1.92 changes.


I'd kinda like an underdog nation in the next game.

Cripple RAND! Only, one of the successes of CBM is I don't know how many obviously weak nations there are anymore (not that all of the Cripple Fight eligible nations were weak to begin with).

[Executor]

bet you didn't know you could get attacked multiple times by horrors under AC?
Oh I knew that :) as rdonj can testify in the huge dossier I left for successor ;)

Yes! But did the same Doom Horror attack you multiple times in the same turn!?

I like the idea of a cripple rand. I vote for that next.

I actually never got a chance to use Iron Angles sadly.
Initially spent all my gems on the Forge, than on forging than managed to cast Earth Well. I hoped to start summoning them at that point but than Eriu overcast it. After than I figured it's best just to stockpile earth gems in case someone overcasts or dispels my Forge. Always kept about 300 in reserve before the AC came up.

[WraithLord]

"Turn 68 - I capture the Eriu cap and a huge force of yours arrives in 156 (the prov next to Eriu cap), made up of mainly the large force that captured 169. I am then forced to converge a large force on the Eriu cap to hold the walls in case you attack. (I was seriously thinking of attacking Ulm this turn while Shiny still had some life left, but this made me forget all about that)
"
:o what a sad misunderstanding. I had 0 intention of taking anything from you. Not w/ Ulm easily getting away w/ the game. How stupid and short sighted would such a move be???
All I wanted from early on is attack Ulm. I was happy I finished conquering two nation by turn 40+ and were it not to Eriu attacking me I'd have attacked Ulm.
Now, for sure w/o help Van would have perished but I gathered that any sensible player would join against Ulm.

[Calahan]

"Turn 68 - I capture the Eriu cap and a huge force of yours arrives in 156 (the prov next to Eriu cap), made up of mainly the large force that captured 169. I am then forced to converge a large force on the Eriu cap to hold the walls in case you attack. (I was seriously thinking of attacking Ulm this turn while Shiny still had some life left, but this made me forget all about that)
"
:o what a sad misunderstanding. I had 0 intention of taking anything from you. Not w/ Ulm easily getting away w/ the game. How stupid and short sighted would such a move be???
All I wanted from early on is attack Ulm. I was happy I finished conquering two nation by turn 40+ and were it not to Eriu attacking me I'd have attacked Ulm.
Now, for sure w/o help Van would have perished but I gathered that any sensible player would join against Ulm.
Yeah, I was 90% sure you had no intention of attacking me. But because I had very little game history to go on, I wasn't 100% comfortable with taking the risk of ignoring you. Plus a huge factor was that I could see no other reason for those troops moving from 169-156, since the only purpose I could deduce of you putting a large force in 156 was to give you attack options against the Eriu cap. I think if you had moved those troops to anywhere else I wouldn't have thought twice about it, but that province at that time was only neighboured by all of your provs and my Eriu cap (and one other insignificant prov of mine).

So there was literally no other purpose for those troops being there I could see, and moving in a "towards me and away from Ulm" direction, other than having eyes on the Eriu cap. Perhaps another great example of how even one misjudged troop signal can have a real unwanted impact on another player.

[Valerius]

Another interesting thing about this game is that you had several mod nations. Any feedback on how they fit in? I have admit that I'm wary of mod nations because despite their frequently excellent quality, I'm never sure what OP surprises are hidden inside them. I think part of it is just mod makers getting caught up in their creation - it's tough to leave things out, not because they aren't thematic, but because it would just be too much. But I may just be scarred from seeing rdonj's Itza and Exec's Stygia in the Tourmaline game. And I thought my own nation of Haida Gwaii and Alugra, that defeated me, were plenty strong as well. The only one that I remember thinking was weak were the Ogres because they were so one dimensional - really tough troops but absolutely horrible magic IIRC (this was several years ago so this may be out-of-date from how these nations are now).

[WraithLord]

There's a lesson to be learned here for me. In RAND games be careful even w/ how, where and when your armies move.

I still haven't heard any explanation from Curious Yellow as to why he attacked me. I'm really curious to know what was his rational.

In first YARG a player subbed for just a turn or two and then he (the sub) attacked me thus starting a war. When the original player took over (two turns later IIRC) the war was already raging and he had no idea, until the game ended, of what the sub did. This episode was also game changing since we both controlled strong nations that could have made a big difference talk about :doh:

[Executor]

There were 5 mod nation and they all seemed to have died early on without much success with the exception of Svarogia. But in all honesty Svarogia did have one huge advantage, the 25 range enslave mind weapon on a cheap mage. That's being fixed however.
Though I think apart from that my nation is more or less balanced. However I guess I can't really be objective with being the creator.

First YARG was you against Dimaz if I remember correctly? C'tis vs Bogarus?

[WraithLord]

WingedDog, see: http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showpost.php?p=736819&postcount=408

Edit: yes, good memory was C'tis vs Bogarus. Ctis had the undying blue dragon of thousand afflictions.

[WraithLord]

I plan for YARG IV to be in LA. No mod nations. Latest CBM.

Whoever wants in can say so now. I'll put up a new thread in a day or two.

Given the blood soaked tradition of YARG games I think we have every reason to believe YARG IV would be action packed and fun.

[Calahan]

I've already posted some Svar bugs for Ex to fix (no prizes now Ex for guessing how I noticed them :)). Guess I could give some feedback on them as well when I get chance. They didn't seem too out of whack to me though, but hard to judge from what I saw, although perhaps a freespawn strat for them will be good once they don't have crippling upkeep :)

Mages felt a little on the cheap side perhaps. Sacred S2 with FTelling for 130gp. I know I would have been spamming the crap out of them if I played them from the get go. And D1 with decent chances to get D2S1B1 for just 80gp, again that feels a bit cheap to me.

Checked out the various summons when I subbed in, but they all had upkeep so were instantly off-putting to a nation dying from upkeep. Objectively though...(this is going by mix of the game and the newest version I downloaded today)

Todoroc - A sacred unit with fear and costing 7D for 5. Not the best stats, but not bad either, and at that price they are cheap and fear stacking can be huge. Conj 4 feels too early for fear stackers, and even sooner for an Astral nation that is likely going for PoTS/LoNS early on anyway.

Drekavac - Seem like a more mage turn effective Shade. Not sure how good their weapons are though as didn't test them. If they are good they could be too cheap and too mage turn effective.

Ala - A4 flying stack of HP for 32A. What's not to like. Probably too cheap for an A4, but then it is an Airy nation, so it might be ok to have it cheap as a national special (and having a summon like this cheap is not the same as having a troop/Sc cheap as not much point spamming A4 buffers.)

Moria - I saw no use for these at all unless I'm missing something about them. As 16N for what is basically a Bane Venom Charm is very pricey (and it triggers upon summing rather than giving you a turn to move them out as you can with the item).

Talason - The spell version is pointless as they come as freespawn on a unit you are very very likely to summon. Unit itself seems fine as it's just a buffed Ghoul with CR.

Babica - Cause unrest (text, not tested) so will have niche uses.

Karakon - Same as above but with assasian.

Navi + Vampir - Both will likely see a lot of usage. Both are probably way too cheap, but then everything in Blood is way too cheap, so it's currently like pricing Ming cases in a $1 shop. Vampirs will see more use than Navi's though as hunters and spawners, so they are more in need of increase (maybe 66, the old Vamp price). A flying B2 thug with fear 5 and a load of HP for 45BS. Must be too cheap, but then more expensive and they start competing with other dirt cheap Blood stuff. Honestly not sure.

[Calahan]

In first YARG a player subbed for just a turn or two and then he (the sub) attacked me thus starting a war. When the original player took over (two turns later IIRC) the war was already raging and he had no idea, until the game ended, of what the sub did. This episode was also game changing since we both controlled strong nations that could have made a big difference talk about :doh:
I've got a curious sub story from YARG 1 as well. Utgard and Pan were whacking crap out of each other over the Aby cap, so with Utgard as a neighbour I took that chance to improve my fortunes with an attack on Caelum. But then Ano (Pan) subbed out, and then all of a sudden the Utgard-Pan war completely stopped in an instant, which left Utgard with a free shot on my fully occupied hands. Not sure how that war stopped, but doubt it would have without the sub handover.

[Curious Yellow]

Re: Wraithlord.

I had to really go back and look at the turns, because it happened half a year ago and I couldn't remember exactly how our war started except being sure that you started it.

At turn 43, I was fighting C'tis and we were both finishing off Marignon. Turn 44 you suddenly teleported in and took provinces 142 and 155. Granted none of them belonged to me at the time (they were Marignon's), but suddenly you took two provinces that pretty clearly were going to fall to me as spoils of war, and the two provinces didn't even connect to the rest of your empire! I felt I couldn't really let that stand, but didn't want to go to proper war with you. So on turn 45 I attacked just those two provinces to take them back and hoped it sent a message that you couldn't just snipe provinces from my back yard like that. Apparently you took it as a declaration of war, but in my mind it was just a natural response to your actions.

As for why I failed to attack Ulm - I wasn't really positioned to do so. Thing is that Pangea wasn't dead and my grasp of the Eastern part of my lands was really tenuous. I had no forts there and didn't think I could hold Ulm/Ashdod back if they attacked me. On the other hand I was bordering C'tis who had three capitals and I thought I had a decent chance of taking him down. So to me he was a natural target - and I was really hoping you and Svarogia would team up and go against Ulm.

[rdonj]

Another interesting thing about this game is that you had several mod nations. Any feedback on how they fit in? I have admit that I'm wary of mod nations because despite their frequently excellent quality, I'm never sure what OP surprises are hidden inside them. I think part of it is just mod makers getting caught up in their creation - it's tough to leave things out, not because they aren't thematic, but because it would just be too much. But I may just be scarred from seeing rdonj's Itza and Exec's Stygia in the Tourmaline game. And I thought my own nation of Haida Gwaii and Alugra, that defeated me, were plenty strong as well. The only one that I remember thinking was weak were the Ogres because they were so one dimensional - really tough troops but absolutely horrible magic IIRC (this was several years ago so this may be out-of-date from how these nations are now).

Itza and alugra have both been changed since then. Alugra mostly had some small changes that went a long way... encumbrance added onto the smiths, things like that. But they don't seem anywhere like OP to me right now. Itza lost the ability to recruit their sacreds altogether, and their slann cost EVEN MOAR now, due to having the temple guard as retinues (one off domsummons). They still have plenty of good points, but I wouldn't call them pythium 2.0 anymore :P

Stygia, on the other hand, remains exactly as it was and is a testament to Amos mods everywhere.

[Slobby]

Game over congratz Executor!

Mmmm recap, pretender wise took the VQ with earth/air/death/blood, and went with Baalz goblin strat. The idea for the VQ was to get vampires plus have a nice immortal teleporting rain of stones caster. Issues with the VQ: the domsummon for vamps is incredibly low - sucked balls really, the vast majority of those vamps she blood hunted for and summoned. Near the end when fighting Exec I decided to get father illearth instead of a vamp lord...big mistake as father illearth was taken! :doh: And with that I just had my VQ to lead my vamps around...and I felt she would be better off in defense to cast spells then run off with vamps that Exec could just slaughter at his whim.

Early progression - launched a double assault on Arco and Arga then Ashdod came in to which my reaction was screw you if you think you're taking Arga lands! Which led to Ulm and I beating down Ashdod.

That brought it to mid game Van Sva and Eriu were fighting one another Ulm was just chilling and so was Ctis. From my point of view Ulm was the leader and I felt the desire to take him on but how? No diplo and Ctis apparently turtling and Ulm being big and bad.

I then summoned some Harvesters of Sorrow with the idea of making Exec think that Ctis or Van was messing with him, geared em up and snuck them through Vans lands to have them approach Ulm from Van/Ctis territory. Sadly I got over ambitious and just when they were right there Exec caught me sneaking in some largeish goblin raiders and war was on with no help in sight. :doh:

Then having a good idea that it was Exec I was against I felt it fitting that I try an aggressive volcanic erution attack to mess with his eco. (still playing mistletoe because of your arma spam Exec!) That didn't seem to work out I figure Exec just cranked his taxes because I noticed no noticeable drop in his income, and I hit him with ALOT of volcanic eruptions.

Mono a mono it was no contest. Grendels and Treants running around, large Ulmish armies with tons of commanders with bows and army of gold plus other buffs. I had nothing to fight that. All I could do was raid and try to force Exec to take one province at a time.

Which as some of you have asked about me not sending my other force to defend the cap...there was no point in doing so. His army would have won and then I would have been truly done. Atleast by keeping that other force alive I still had something to harass/threaten Exec with.

[Executor]

Tourmaline, fun game. Battle of the OP. Who was the dude that took over for me and managed to lose a dozen immortal crazy powerful SCs?

Calahan, so I guess in short everything is too cheap? I tend to agree with this statement upping the price won't solve the problem. I priced most stuff compared to CBM and other popular active mods. If I increase the cost on some stuff they are just going to fade away I think. So it's hard to find balance.

Todoroc should get a slight cost increase and be moved up a notch in conjuration though. Though they are a bit hard to use since they increase unrest and can be used periodically since they have spring power. Also, any arrow fire is just murderous for them since they have no armor and low protection.

Sudjajas were specifically priced upon MA TC mages. That I remember, comparing them to Geomancer which I still find better overall. Svarogia has another big flaw with all the mages being demons.

Ala got improved now when there are no hammers. A mobile staff of storms for 32 gems. A hammered staff of storms was 17 gems before. The A4 I've added just. So like I said it's all quite relative.

Vampir was based on LA Ulm vampires. Though in truth mine are better. And this was when regular vampire were 70ish slaves. I doubt they would have been a good option had they been more expensive.

As for Drekavac, I think they are excellent but people think they are bad on the other hand. I consider them a much better version of shades since that one shot fear attack can insta rout an army.

Mora mage, you're the first one to say they are any good. Most people complained how they are useless without blood rodes for blood hunting. Perhaps they are on the cheap side at 75 gold for the magic they can get randomly.

Good point on the Moria.

Navi should have some nice options with communions. As they are now I think they're good. They were probably overpriced before the blood summon price increase. It's hard to compare one of them to a 66 blood slave Ice Devil. At least I think so.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the feedback as always but there are a lot of things to take into consideration when balancing prices. In any case I'll take these suggestion into consideration before for the new game.

[Slobby]

I plan for YARG IV to be in LA. No mod nations. Latest CBM.

Whoever wants in can say so now. I'll put up a new thread in a day or two.

Given the blood soaked tradition of YARG games I think we have every reason to believe YARG IV would be action packed and fun.

I'm in for YARG4 :)

[Executor]

I found it curious those Harvester emerged where they did. Figured you moved them trough C'tis land but didn't understand to what purpose? Good to know. :)

Yes, Ashdod made some very funky moves. Already fully engaged in war with me he moved onto Arga Dis as well. Maybe he was just overconfident he could kill us both.

The volcanic eruptions killed quite a lot actually! Ashdod, TC and my cap were bellow 10000 pop. And at least a dozen other high pop lands were hit multiple times as well. I think you killed close to 100000.
But I tried to tax out any gold site I found and taxing out your provinces helped keep the illusion there was little damage.
But even after most of your lands were captured my income was barely bigger than when I attacked you.

I got the feeling you were just waiting to get killed or hoping help would come once those 5 armies rolled into your territory. :)

[rdonj]

That was Septimius Severus. My favorite moment was when he jumped one onto an unscripted and ungeared wraithlord I had in my territory (I couldn't care less if it died as I was moving it to my cap) and it killed the immortal SC with skelly spam.

[don_Pablo]

C’tis joins the congratulations to Executor!

Also I can’t but beg your pardon for my passive play for the last 30 turn (or so). I was pressed by RL but did not want to leave the game. Spending no more than 20 min for turn hurt me a lot (f.e. casting Earth well under AC I gave S gems but was mistaken with battle-spell scripting and the order to cast Returning was given to another mage but not the needed one).

I saw the necessity to attack Ulm early.
But the first time it was aborted by Eriu (our war started with his cloud-trapezing ang killing 6 poison golems kitted out to deal with armies of Marignon but not with thugs). That was too painful for that moment.
Later I dragged out because of shortage of time for MM.

Attacking me by Eriu was unexpected but explicable. As for his attack vs Vanheim and Svarogia were thought to be just suicidal.

One of the most funny part of the party was regular duels of my pretender vs Hunter of heroes. Thanks to horror-marking by Marignon I remember ~5 visits of Hunter of heroes, ~3 of Eater of Gods and many of simple horrors. :)

Speaking of YARG4 I’d like to join but will have to skip it if you eager to start soon. It would be ideally for me to start in August.

[TwoBits]

It's over? Well done, Executor!

Yeah, I was Svagoria. And Calahan's comments, while typically acerbic :p , were fairly spot on - I didn't really know what the hell I was doing.

This was actually the first mod nation I've ever played in MP, and definitely the first look I'd ever had at Svagoria. So yeah, as the game progressed, I really had no idea which direction I should be heading in.

Oh, and I did not know that Svagoria's free-spawn had an Upkeep cost! Damn, would have been nice to figure that out earlier in the game...

Add to that, I was in the midst of some severe Dominions burnout. That's why I had Rdonj find a sub, because I knew someone could do better with Svagoria than my half-assed, partially on autopilot leadership. So I'm not surprised that under Calahan's superior leadership, Svagoria was able to mount a surge.

Oh, as far as war decision making, I too was hoping folks would go for Ulm sooner. I was really disappointing when I saw Van and Eriu go at it, and I thought the only chance would be for Eriu to get put down quickly (seeming the weaker of the two), so the survivors could face Ulm before it was too late, so I jumped in against Eriu as well.

Eriu proved a tough nut to crack though, and my flailing around with crap like mounted archers with Flaming Arrows vs. Storm/Arrow Fend did not help :(

Oh well, not sure what could have been done against Ulm even with a quick victory over Eriu and a fully engaged C'tis. But I'm glad Svagoria and Van as least gave Executor a little run for his money :)

[WraithLord]

Re: Wraithlord.

I had to really go back and look at the turns, because it happened half a year ago and I couldn't remember exactly how our war started except being sure that you started it.

At turn 43, I was fighting C'tis and we were both finishing off Marignon. Turn 44 you suddenly teleported in and took provinces 142 and 155. Granted none of them belonged to me at the time (they were Marignon's), but suddenly you took two provinces that pretty clearly were going to fall to me as spoils of war, and the two provinces didn't even connect to the rest of your empire! I felt I couldn't really let that stand, but didn't want to go to proper war with you. So on turn 45 I attacked just those two provinces to take them back and hoped it sent a message that you couldn't just snipe provinces from my back yard like that. Apparently you took it as a declaration of war, but in my mind it was just a natural response to your actions.

As for why I failed to attack Ulm - I wasn't really positioned to do so. Thing is that Pangea wasn't dead and my grasp of the Eastern part of my lands was really tenuous. I had no forts there and didn't think I could hold Ulm/Ashdod back if they attacked me. On the other hand I was bordering C'tis who had three capitals and I thought I had a decent chance of taking him down. So to me he was a natural target - and I was really hoping you and Svarogia would team up and go against Ulm.

ok. now I understand. yes I took two provinces that would have likely fallen to you. I remember at the time being uncertain of your plans re. me. Specifically I was afraid that if I'll attack Ulm you'd join up against me. So this raid was also sort of a test - if he lets it pass then he wants peace (more accurately knows that a war between us would be a disaster).
Regardless of this, in non diplo games if I get attacked then it's war. Plain and simple. Did it not occur to you that this will be the end result?

[WraithLord]

rdonj, many thanks for your superb administration of the game and thank you all for the game!

[Executor]

Sorry about that Twobits. That was a, rather big, mistake by me. I was misinformed but I should still have tested this out so it's only me to blaim in the end.

WL, I'm pretty sure I would have attacked you too under those conditions. Grabbing provinces doesn't look especially friendly and inspiring to me.
An example must be made!

[WraithLord]

Even at the cost of starting a war you cannot win and surely losing the game?

[Executor]

Probably. I've been known to do stuff against my better judgement.
Fairly sure I managed to effectively eliminate myself at least a couple of times out of principle and revenge.

[Calahan]

I'm with Ex as well WL. I hate province poaching as both the attacker (in most cases apart from as a rusher) and the defender (in most cases and especially as rush defender).

As the attacker (but not as a rusher, as rushing has special conditions) it means someone is basically saying to me "Oh hi there, you've done all the hard work in killing that guy, so do you mind awfully if I help myself to a few provs by joining the war at the 11th hour and denying you of some spoils?". That's like an action movie where the Cavalry arrives just as all the fighting ends and the movie is fading out to the closing credits. With in this case the Cavalry expecting to take a share of the glory.


So if I was in clean-up mode in a RAND game, and someone suddenly poached a few provinces, especially if they were well out of their zone, then I'd likely react with potential hostilitiy as well, and do exactly as CY did. Capture the poached provinces /only/ and see if the poacher wanted to make anything of it. As if I wanted to start a war, and had the capability to launch a huge first strike, then /only/ going for the poached provinces should send a pretty clear message of my intentions IMO. As if I had really wanted a war then I certainly wouldn't have started it in such an underwhelming fashion, and for that reason my actions should be fairly clear in that I was only (re)claiming provinces that I felt I had a very strong right to, or very strong need for (eg. empire split in half without them. Or precious resource, such as Astral mage for non-Astral nation)

If the poaching was just of some stray provs well inside the poachers borders, meaning it was just a border straightening excercise, then I might turn a blinder eye. But otherwise no. Far too many players are opportunists when it comes to pinching others prey, and innocently think there's no harm in grabbing a tiny slice of the pie for themselves. Never the case in my experience.


And as defender I hate it even more, especially in rushes. In two RAND games I was fending off a powerful nation when poachers turned up to make my life harder (impossible) by squeezing my income and cutting off my counter attack options, which did nothing except make the attackers life easier. The theory is that you're depriving the rusher of extra provinces should they win, but I'm fully convinced now, after being the unsuccessful rush defender twice, that this is just BS.

As the rusher is likely happy to have a few less provs to reduce the effect of the leaders tag his rush will have, and so reduce the chance of a ganging. (I know I've been happy to see poachers when I've rushed). Plus as the rusher a few less provs means less time needed to clean-up and move-on, and less provs for the defender means less resistance and so easier to take down. And whenever I see this happen, a few less provs from the rusher has never once weakened the rusher, as if they've had the capability to rush someone, then when they want more provinces they simply declare war on their next target and take them. They couldn't care less if their rush netted them only 10 of the original 12 provs their target had. The capital is all a rusher really cares about, and making sure they take it asap so that they don't get bogged down in a prolonged first war. And often the rushers next target is the poacher themselves who conveniently moved their borders closer to the rushers force sitting in the newly aquired capital, and doing so allows them to reclaim the poached provicnes as well. Two birds with one stone, how convenient :re:

Too much poaching gets done as an automatic responce to seeing a neighbour going down. Once again showing Dom players are generally poor at making strategic decisions, and often act well in advance of doing any actual thinking (RTS syndrome perhaps). The only thinking they tend to do is after the game in hindsight "yeah looking back now I shouldn't have done that obviously stupid thing. I really should have thought more about it at the time, but I just thought what the heck".

[Curious Yellow]

WraithLord, I think this highlights the difficulty of communication in a no-diplomacy game and trying to get your actions to speak for you.

In your world, this happened:
Turn 44: Vanheim: "Hey Eriu, do you want to go to war with me?"
Turn 45: Eriu: "Yep"
Turn 46+: Vanheim: "Then war you shall have!"

In my world, this happened:
Turn 44: Vanheim: "Hey Eriu, can I grab these two provinces that rightfully belong to you?"
Turn 45: Eriu: "Nope"
Turn 46+: Vanheim: "This means war! Blood and sulphur will rain from the sky! I will shove storm demons so far up your posterior that you will be sneezing lightning bolts! You will rue this day, rue it I say!"

[Calahan]

@ Twobits.

Lol, at one point I was getting so frustrated with the position that I started to convince myself that the original player had some clairvoyancey skills and knew that I would be taking over for them at some point, and so initiated a cunning plan to get back at me for something :) With my fixation in particular being on the S5 Oracle.

As the only reason I could see for S5 was to piss me off with being so close to being a gem Wish caster, and yet so far without being able to get my hands on those precious artefact boosters. And the only Level 9 hit was Alt, to further dangle the S5 non-Wish capable Oracle in my face! If S6+ then perfect, S4- and I wouldn't care. But S5, S-fecking-5!!!

I felt like a donkey chasing a S9 carrot :deadhorse:

[WraithLord]

Ok. There's a lesson I learned the hard way. I'll make sure no to make the same mistake again.
Basically I misjudged CY's reaction and over-reacted to it.

Now, to some fun guessing game. What would have happened had me and Eriu hadn't gone to war?

Who would've attacked Ulm first?

I know I was afraid to do so b/c I didn't know whether the others would join me or attack me instead.