Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log

[Johan K]

Here is the development log for Illwinter's upcoming game:

http://jaffa.illwinter.com/coe3/coe3progress.html

It is not very verbose, but with some luck you might find something interesting there. I probably should add some more screenshots and features to the CoE3 page, but that will have to be next time.

[Edi]

Thanks.

It doesn't need to be very verbose. That's plenty good for following progress of the development in a general sort of way and should give some idea of the situation for those who are familiar with CoE2.

[Gandalf Parker]

What? a programmer be verbose? Ive never known it to happen :)
Not sure if posting a dev page is a good idea but we will see

[WraithLord]

It's very cool. Thank you.

Doppelganger sounds real nice :)

"* You do not conquer allied squares if they have troops in them"
What, would alliances be supported?

"* F2 for player overview" - overview is always a good idea :)

When would pre-order start? :D

[Edi]

"* You do not conquer allied squares if they have troops in them"

What, would alliances be supported?
They are, indeed...

[WraithLord]

OMG. One can only dream that one day dom-IV would have that...

Hey, one can only dream that one day dom-IV would be made by IW.

Here's to IW crafting many many game in the future :cheers:

[Gandalf Parker]

Alliances are supported by creating "teams" at the start of the game.
Your armies do not attack each other. You can share a location. Your army can hide in one of his castles (but not recruit there). You can participate together in an attack. And you can team with the AI.

On the other hand:
You cannot create a team in mid-game, and you cannot dissolve a team. No backstabbing other than maybe taking some of his resources if he didnt leave at least one unit there.

I guess you COULD do outside-the-game agreements for Dom3 style NAPs, alliances, and backstabs. But they also will have Dom3 style of non-sharing a location without your units attacking each other

[Edi]

The other limitations are a maximum of 8 players per map and a maximum of 6 teams. Eight players even on an enormous maps gets cramped fast.

AIs can also be teamed with each other.

[Edi]

There has been a ton of work done on CoE3 since this thread was last bumped.

New features, new graphics, balance fixes and we're also going to get a map editor with the game. A scriptable map editor at that, meaning that e.g. events can be scripted to happen in various ways under various conditions.

[jimbojones1971]

This is sound very good, I am really looking forward to it. The team aspect in particular would be a lot of fun, I think.

[WraithLord]

"* Long right click on citadel to recruit there."
Cool. Any chance to add this (or other UI goodies) to a dom patch?

[ioticus]

Latest update lists "serial codes". Does that mean we're getting close?

[Edi]

Not yet. There is still much to do, such as testing the map editor and writing documentation for it, ironing out bugs from both editor and game etc etc. Legacy graphics also need to be replaced.

When the version numbers get to the 2.9x range then we'll see.

[Gandalf Parker]

The comparisons of CoE3 with Dom3 are interesting.

The TEAM abilities in CoE3 are great. You can see each others explored areas, you can both attack in a shared combat, you can sit inside of each others fortresses and towers, you can exchange sites.

The AI is smarter. There are separate AIs for each nation which allows some very specific instructions in the programming instead of general ones.

The AI even makes a pretty good ally for a TEAM. And certain nations pair up with other nations very nicely in ways that allow overlapping areas and best use of individual nations abilities without competing for the same resources.

The MAP commands for CoE3 include triggers which allow creating maps for scenarios. And the maps are text based which will make them much smaller for downloads.

[Valerius]

I'm curious what decisions have to made when it comes to combat. For instance, with Dominions you decide the composition of your forces, the equipment for commanders, unit placement and a five turn script. The interaction of these factors makes for an interesting and challenging game - the drawback is that managing all this late game can be painful. I know that COE3 sacrifices some complexity in favor of streamlining play but if I'm about to face an opponent what are the things I need to take into account? If my units don't match up favorably with his is there something I can do to compensate for that?

And on a completely different note, is KO still involved with IW? Seems like it's been a few years since I've seen him post.

[Edi]

Yes, KO is still very much involved. Some of the new graphics he has made for CoE3 are absolutely awesome. For example, I have NEVER seen as good a rendition of a gryphon as the new CoE3 graphic is.

As far as combat orders etc are concerned, there is no Dom3 style micromanagement. You cannot arrange troops in your army, the arrangement is automatic.

Mages cannot be scripted the same way as Dom3, but you can choose what spells they memorize from among the ones they know. From those spells, a random useful one will be cast every round. If no useful spell exists, the caster will do nothing (e.g. a pyromancer who knows the spells Flames, Fire Burst, Fireball and Incinerate and is going up against a fire elemental, which is fire immune, would cast nothing at all).

If your units don't match up favorably against an enemy, your magic can often function as an equalizer and the more types of mages or other spellcasters you have, the more chances you have.

The CoE3 manual has a fairly detailed section on combat, short though it is.

[WraithLord]

The MM reductions sounds awesome. For the record, if ever there would be dom IV I would absolutely love to see it streamlines as well.

Currently playing dom you need to pay a painful price in MM to enjoy the game. Late game dom is a nightmare.

[Admiral_Aorta]

What sort of modding capability is is going to have? You've mentioned map making but nothing about mods.

[Edi]

As of the present, there is no modding capability. There may or may not be modding capability later, but we do not know yet. Other than one mention in passing, it has not been discussed because there is still so much work to do with getting all the basics done.

For example, there are still lots of legacy graphics and all of the classes don't even have a description yet.

However, knowing Johan, all hope should not be abandoned by any means. With regard to any possible future addition of modding, patience is required.

[elmokki]

Not having moddability of at LEAST the level of Dom3 would be a huge dissapointment.

[thejeff]

That's somewhat disturbing, since by far the best way to have the modding available is to build it in from the start.

[Gandalf Parker]

We only said that we dont know. Being Johan Im sure that the hooks are going in this time as he works if he plans to offer modding. But the game is no where near to the point that modding would be in the testing phase.

[Edi]

Like Gandalf said, the game is not yet at a point where modding could be tested.

One of the most loudly voiced complaints about Dom3 was that the AI was no challenge once you learned the game and that it was a one-trick pony. CoE3 has a lot more work in that regard and the different classes do not play according to the same playbook when under AI control. That is not a trivial amount of work and it shows.

The multiplayer network side is not yet finished and most certainly not documented enough for players to use. That absolutely needs to come first. Single player and hotseat MP work quite well already, but the network MP is the single most important aspect that needs focus right now.

Again, remember that Johan is the only one coding this and he is doing it on his free time since he has a day job. With that fact in mind, the progress has been rapid.

As I said in my previous post, patience is required. We know from Dom3 already that Johan has an interest in modding and Kristoffer as well. Therefore it is not unreasonable to entertain the possibility of CoE3 being moddable, but available time and priorities right now mean we don't have any word.

Keep in mind also that Johan and Kristoffer play their cards close to their chest as they have always done. It is not unusual to have something change quite a bit between one incremental version or the next or having a full-fledged new feature dropped on us without any advance warning.

That is the reason that the best and most accurate thing we can tell you is "It has been mentioned once in passing, but right now we don't know."

If modding is added, you can expect an immediate announcement in this thread.

[Admiral_Aorta]

You mentioned legacy sprites, are all these going to be updated? One of the things that I think drags dom3's quality down is all the old sprites still in use when the new ones are so much nicer.

[Edi]

You mentioned legacy sprites, are all these going to be updated? One of the things that I think drags dom3's quality down is all the old sprites still in use when the new ones are so much nicer.
Yes, they are. When we're talking about CoE3, "legacy sprite" means sprites from CoE2. If you download that and take it for a spin, you will have a whole different idea of contrast between just how much better the new stuff looks.

[samoht]

Is the turn resolution going to work like it does for CoE2? Or will that work differently?

And will we still have to hit that Q button to end turns? (I can't tell you how many times I ended my turn when I only wanted to buy more troops.)

[Edi]

The user interface is different, the turn resolution less so. Combat takes place at the end of turn.

[Gandalf Parker]

New version out for those who are curious about how we are progressing...
http://jaffa.illwinter.com/coe3/coe3progress.html

[WraithLord]

when can we pre-order?- And what perk would come with the pre-order? :D

An XL Gelantineous Cube T-Shirt? ;)

[Gandalf Parker]

Im not sure that I want to look more like a gelatinous cube than I already do :)

[Gandalf Parker]

Anticipation. We have gotten a new version to test about every 15 days. A new one is about due. And there are many things on the progress page that I cant wait to play with.

[earcaraxe]

will it come out before christmas?

[ioticus]

Well, since there are 15 more versions to get to 3.0 and since versions are occurring about every two week, it looks like at least 7 months before it comes out :(

[Edi]

New versions have come out in as little as three days, but the last three or four versions have had a longer time between them because many more new features have been added each time.

Some of those have been fairly big changes, such as the addition of the Dwarf Queen class in 2.84, lots of new spells (and more to come, no doubt), AI improvements (which is a fairly big deal, since each of the 17 classes has a separately programmed AI) and entirely new mechanics (water breathing items, for one).

The frequency of versions is also very much dependent on how much available time Johan has to devote to the project. And where graphics are concerned, how much time Kristoffer has too.

I don't know if it will take seven months but it certainly will not be in 2011. Johan's working hard and so are the testers too, you can count on that.

The final product is certainly worth waiting for.

Besides, testing takes time. Even using debug commands, some stuff can be devilishly hard to find since it is either complex, hard to spot or both or requires specific preconditions that can only be set up after a fair amount of time (even with accelerated progress).

[samoht]

What is the criteria for releasing a new numbered version?

[Edi]

Right now it's enough accumulation of new features and/or enough fixes for bugs (feature bugs, not just statfixes). Once there is more stuff to test, generally.

[Admiral_Aorta]

Are there going to be some preset scenarios like CoE2 had? If so, will we be able to make our own scenarios as well?

[Gandalf Parker]

Nobody has said that. In fact none of the CoE3 forums are on Shrapnel.
As far as I know its still undecided altho no matter what is decided it will probably be for the developers so I wouldnt hold out for it being better for you.

As for Scenarios, it is looking good. Some much more involved map commands with triggers, timers, and events is already fleshing out for CoE3

[WraithLord]

Are there any public CoE3 forums?

[NooBliss]

* Sleeping targets are immune to fear.

But... but WHY?!!
That's such a great way to make one sh.t in his pants!.. It was one of our favourite tricks in DnD2.0

[JonBrave]

* Sleeping targets are immune to fear.

But... but WHY?!!
That's such a great way to make one sh.t in his pants!.. It was one of our favourite tricks in DnD2.0

Umm, obviously, because they are asleep, and hence can't see the fearful thing. All fear things involve parading up & down shaking scary things in front of the target.

[Gandalf Parker]

Are there any public CoE3 forums?
Hmm... ok maybe I need to retreat from my statement.

I guess the closest thing to public forums about CoE3 are this thread, and one in the CoE2 forum on Shrapnel. The only other forum I can think of is the one for the beta testing. Im not sure what any other forum would have other than maybe give the posters more of a feeling of freedom to post. There might be a thread on the freedom-to-post forum (Dom3Mods)

[Gandalf Parker]

OK it looks like CoE3 is officially now the next great Illwinter game (IMHO anyway).
I have now had it for 4 months and I am still happily playing it daily.

[Doo]

Boo Gandalf!

Your just pointing it out that you have it and we don't ;)

Good to hear its coming along well. Without giving anything away that shouldn't be, care to compare it to COE II?

[Edi]

Mechanics-wise it does compare to CoE2, but more polished, more complex and more transparent. Generally, more everything, I should say.

Unit graphics are a serious upgrade from Dominions for the most part (though some graphics are the same). Some of the graphical improvement comes from the interface, because the same graphic (exact same sprite) displays to much greater effect on the CoE3 interface.

Allied games are the biggest thing and that has had some improvements. For example, there is now an option where defeating a team requires defeating all players on that team before they are all eliminated. Without that, as soon as a player loses all commanders or all citadels, they are gone. Now one player can lose all commanders or all citadels and still stay in the game (and take a new citadel, or wait for new commanders to become available),

[Edi]

Regarding modding capabilities and their status, here is what Johan had to say about the issue back in the Illwinter's Next Project (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=47679) thread. The post is dated August 16th, 2011 and it is the most comprehensive statement about modding in the game to date.

There is no modding support in CoE3 right now. It will probably be added, but maybe not until after it has been released.

The cosmology will be similar to Dominions, at least the void and horrors will make it into CoE3. Nations are not the same though. CoE is more about a powerful character like the necromancer, he does not rule a large nation like the pretender gods in Dominions.

That thread is useful reading for those who have not already done so, but any further questions should be kept to this thread so as to have everything in the same place as much as possible.

[Gandalf Parker]

Unlike previous beta-testing because they happened under Shrapnels rules, this beta-test does not have a non-disclosure agreement. So I can actually say that I am beta-testing it and be able to answer specific questions. (I debated for while whether I WANTED to tell this community that I was in the beta but decided to chance the flood) :)

I would say that CoE2 is a great starting point, and then add on top of that the many lessons learned and increased skills gained from creating Dom3 (including things they wish they had done). That seems like it would be obvious but its the best explanation I can think of. CoE2 upgraded by Dom3 experience.

[PriestyMan]

Unlike previous beta-testing because they happened under Shrapnels rules, this beta-test does not have a non-disclosure agreement. So I can actually say that I am beta-testing it and be able to answer specific questions. (I debated for while whether I WANTED to tell this community that I was in the beta but decided to chance the flood) :)


So does this mean illwinter ditched shrapnel? i really worry that without the broad advertising shrapnel provides the game wont ever be a big hit and will only be a niche game people want to pay $50 for.

[samoht]

I can't tell if he is being serious or super sarcastic. Oh internet.

[Doo]

Maybe Matrix Games?

Matrix Games publish some quality niche strategy titles. I'd highly recommend Distant Worlds (and expansions) from them. All those little ships remind me of 70's sci-fi.

[Gandalf Parker]

So does this mean illwinter ditched shrapnel? i really worry that without the broad advertising shrapnel provides the game wont ever be a big hit and will only be a niche game people want to pay $50 for.
As I understand it, it means that Illwinter has not yet CHOSEN Shrapnel to be the distributor.

But I wouldnt hold out for an advertising company with bargain bins either. Im not sure that Illwinter is prepared to chance a shelfware/advertising distributor so even if they change it is likely to be another distribute & publicize company.

[Admiral_Aorta]

Putting it on steam or something similar would probably work best, since it's a much more casual game than dominions.

[NTJedi]

Here is the development log for Illwinter's upcoming game:

http://jaffa.illwinter.com/coe3/coe3progress.html



Any chance we might see a youtube video or two of this Conquest of Elysium 3? It's easier for my family to gain interest with what they can see instead of trying to convince them to read a text file update log. Thanks.

[Doo]

Any chance we might see a youtube video or two of this Conquest of Elysium 3? It's easier for my family to gain interest with what they can see instead of trying to convince them to read a text file update log. Thanks.

Ha! I totally agree.

Do an AAR via youtube, make sure the name clearly states "Beta" and get everyone keen before the release.

No pressure. None at all ;)

[WraithLord]

"* A dmg 1 attack has a 20% value of becoming a dmg 2 attack, enabling snakes a small chance to damage armored units."

So no open die rolls in CoE3?

[Edi]

"* A dmg 1 attack has a 20% value of becoming a dmg 2 attack, enabling snakes a small chance to damage armored units."

So no open die rolls in CoE3?
Everything else EXCEPT dmg 1 attacks already uses open die rolls, so that little update is just rectifying a minor problem and making snakes (the real ones) a lot more annoying than they already are...

EDIT: To clarify, snakes have a dmg 1 venomous bite, which generally does a number on any standard unit they manage to bite, because while the damage from the bite is generally very low, the poison tends to be fatal more often than not.

Also, "snakes" is, for me at least, a general term for any wandering independent stack, which are anything from a nuisance to a hazard to an aneurysm inducing aggravation (indie stacks, if left alone, tend to take flagged resources and unflag them, sometimes with critical results when resources are tight).

The reason for that term being "snakes" is in a hotseat MP game where we had something like three stacks of serpents, five or six stacks of snakes and sundry deer, boar and wolf stacks unflagging everything in sight and requiring two dedicated vermin extermination squads to keep under control.

Therefore, {deer, boar, wolf, serpent, soulless, longdead, ghoul, dispossessed spirit, giant ant, snake, bandit, brigand, etc} == snake

Seriously, one does need to plan garrison/extermination squads, since otherwise wandering independents will ruin your economy.

[Gandalf Parker]

Also worth mentioning is that some wanderers can include Manticore, Griffins, Chimera, Beholder, and worst of all is Creeping Doom. Some things that you end up HAVING to leave wandering because it takes abit to get a force big enough to kill it. Pretty rough when you are also trying to gain enough resources to GET an army that can kill it. Early gathering can be a real game of chance.

[samoht]

My experience with CoE2 was that only bandits, deer and wolves actually wandered. The rest of the indy's just stayed put where I found them. So you're saying that has been changed? :)

[ioticus]

The game is sounding more fantastic with each update and the more I learn about it. Honestly, just like with Dominions, it's as if Illwinter could read my mind and make a game just to meet my desires.

[nordlys]

So what about combat, is it the same autoresolved blob vs blob as in COE2 or there are some kind of improvements? I really wanted to like COE2, but combat killed it for me.

[Gandalf Parker]

Blob vs Blob. In fact, even more so than Dom3. There are no formations. And you can only select spells from the wizards spell list but not script them.

On the other hand it does give the game much less micromanagement. It is meant to be simpler, faster, and quicker games. No "one turn a day" games for this one. There is lots of fun game play though

[Edi]

My experience with CoE2 was that only bandits, deer and wolves actually wandered. The rest of the indy's just stayed put where I found them. So you're saying that has been changed? :)
Yes. There are wandering stacks of many sorts of independents and there are also sites that generate more independents who then go on to make nuisances of themselves. Flagging such structures puts a stop to those shenanigans until someone unflags it (so better leave a garrison if possible).

And like Gandalf said, some of the wandering independents can be really tough. A good starting army can take down a Manticore...maybe...if they're lucky...and if they have defensive terrain - or not. Some of the other stuff that can be found wandering on its own will makes a manticore look tame.

The early game can be a real game of chance (including if you chance to go in a wrong direction and find nothing while ini the opposite direction there would have been plenty...) and sometimes you just can't win.

CoE is supposed to be unfair =)

[Edi]

nordlys, the combat is similar to CoE2, except the graphics are much better and the mechanics are more transparent (as well as explained in the manual), which gives better opportunities to estimate how a given engagement may go (unless the enemy has invisible units you can't see, of course).

The basic rule of thumb is that there is no such thing as overkill.

[Gandalf Parker]

Heehee. My basic rule of thumb on combats has been "if you think you army is twice as strong as his, then it might be worth trying"

And "pray that he attacks me first". If I can be in a defensive spot, and get the first round of combat for being the one attacked, then it helps a lot

[samoht]

Will there be unit upkeep?

[Edi]

Will there be unit upkeep?
No, there is not. The economics of the game preclude that or otherwise the income from everything would have to be increased 10x, which would create far more issues than it would solve.

[WraithLord]

A few vids on utube would do a lot to help the game sales, the sooner the better :)

[ioticus]

I'm dying for an update, it's been 9 days . . .

[Gandalf Parker]

You think you are? Me too. But Im not going to comment on holiday time they might be taking.

But *drool* Im eager for a new version. The network stuff puts it back into one of my prime zones for testing. Plus I am REALLY eager to see what these "portals" are about.

[paarfi]

Plus I am REALLY eager to see what these "portals" are about.
It's good to hear they're thinking with portals.

[Gandalf Parker]

We will see how it affects game play.
So far only one nation gets them. The Enchanter (which is one of my favorites)

[Edi]

Being Gandalf's favorite doesn't mean that it's easy to play by any means. In fact, the Enchanter is one of the most difficult classes to play, especially since depending on who all is in the game, they are likely to be one of the prime targets for everyone.

The reasons being that in the early game, before they've built up much of an army, they're going after and depleting resources other classes need long term and if they manage to get into the late game, they have some of the most powerful units in the game.

What Gandalf said about the network stuff is also true, it's his prime testing zone since he has the equipment to set up exactly what he wants and check how it all works, which is something I can't do.

In this respect we certainly have a definite distribution of duties.

Some of the things I'm interested in finding out is how to reliably gain access to higher level esoteric spells. Meaning higher level spells in magic paths that you can only gain through recruitment, charming or enslaving things. There probably isn't a reliable way, which may be all to the good, because some of those spells will put the fear of god and dread of monsters into anyone going up against them. Right now finding them out is only possible through the map editor, which itself needs some heavy duty testing.

There are some truly "You have GOT to be kidding me!" moments if you do run into them in-game, stuff that turns an inconsequential pushover into something you only come back to after summoning a few supercombatants, because one or two just might not be enough.

Best of all is if you run into such a thing randomly with your main army, which can happen if an esoteric mage gets created on the map with both a magic booster item and a stealth/invisibility item.

"Let's take this library, for the greater glory of - Hey! Where did he come from and what-"
*blinding flash of light followed by silence*
"And STAY away! Bloody interlopers... *muttering*"

[Gandalf Parker]

I think anyone who knows me from Dom3 knows I tend to love the underdogs. In this game it means I dont tend to go with the early-game powerhouse nations. Id rather play the survive-until-you-get-power nations.

Altho best IMHO is an alliance between early powerhouse and late game SCs.I like to play games with me allied to an AI. I love how the game allows allies to cooperate so much. And I love the cluster start switch where the allies start next to each other. With well-paired allies its a blast

[Scaramuccia]

By the way - is it too early to ask questions such :
Will it be available on linux? and Are you aiming to release it next year?

[Edi]

Yes. The development is on Linux, the Windows version is a port. There may be a Mac version as well later.

As for the schedule, only Johan and Kristoffer know that. However, it is safe to say that it will not be in 2011.

[djo]

There may be a Mac version as well

later

*weeps*

[Edi]

There may be a Mac version as well

later

*weeps*

Current version is 2.86. Version 3.0 therefore counts as "later", so while we do not right now have one for testing, do not lose all hope. I actually don't know the schedule or the plans regarding that, so the best I can give you is an imprecise answer.

[Gandalf Parker]

Linux to OS X is a much shorter jump than Linux to Windows.
Especially for versions after WinXP

[djo]

I am optimistic; their Mac support for Dominions has always been great. But it's never too early for some Mac gaming angst.

[Knai]

I am optimistic; their Mac support for Dominions has always been great. But it's never too early for some Mac gaming angst.

They develop on a Unix system, and Unix to Unix ports are usually pretty easy. Mac is Unix based, it's Windows that isn't. As such, there is absolutely no cause to suspect there will be any issues whatsoever getting it to Mac, probably quickly.

[Soyweiser]

I'm wondering, how is this game different from something like age of wonders shadow magic? (apart from age of wonders having better graphics etc).

The game has not been sold to me so far.

[Tecnócrata]

At least will be finished and fully patched, unlike AOW:SM, which was promised to and never fulfilled. What a botch and disappointment that game it was.

[Gandalf Parker]

Im not sure that I would make that prediction. Illwinter games tend not to be finished and fully patched on release. However they do tend to be eternally patched and upgraded for free.

[Tecnócrata]

Yeah, of course I meant over time :). Shadow Magic was told to receive more patches after the unfinished 1.3 and did not.

[Edi]

I'm wondering, how is this game different from something like age of wonders shadow magic? (apart from age of wonders having better graphics etc).

The game has not been sold to me so far.
We-ell, I do know at least one thing that CoE3 has and that Age of Wonders (in all its incarnations) lacked:

Mindless, immobile, fear immune magic mushrooms, which you can charm and which are frightened of going into battle!

I defy you to find a fantasy strategy game which can produce that combination without having it modded in! Not even in Dominions 3!

:D :D

[Doo]

We-ell, I do know at least one thing that CoE3 has and that Age of Wonders (in all its incarnations) lacked:

Mindless, immobile, fear immune magic mushrooms, which you can charm and which are frightened of going into battle!

I defy you to find a fantasy strategy game which can produce that combination without having it modded in! Not even in Dominions 3!

:D :D

So they are immune to fear, but are frightened of going into battle? Indeed our puny human language can't keep up with the ever expanding emotional states of the mindless magic mushroom population :)

Perhaps by eating some of these mindless magic mushrooms we may better gain insight into the world in which they exist in? Is that in-game?

[Gandalf Parker]

No. But I SURE wouldnt mind some wandering monster immune to their poison that liked eating mushrooms. They can be a real pain

[Doo]

No. But I SURE wouldnt mind some wandering monster immune to their poison that liked eating mushrooms. They can be a real pain

This type of talk brings back memories of playing Angband and its variants. Hopefully there will be slimes and molds in CoE3 as well :)

[Gandalf Parker]

There are Molds. And Gelatinous Cubes.

[Edi]

There are also new versions. The dev log announces v2.87 today. :D

[Soyweiser]

At least will be finished and fully patched, unlike AOW:SM, which was promised to and never fulfilled. What a botch and disappointment that game it was.

Dom3 still has a lot of bugs. And some GUI improvements would also be great. So lets not go there ;).

[Gandalf Parker]

Yes but many of the most common complaints about Dom3 are no longer easy patch fixes. They would require extensive rewriting which is one of the reasons I think the new project was started. To incorporate lessons learned.

[Soyweiser]

Yes but many of the most common complaints about Dom3 are no longer easy patch fixes. They would require extensive rewriting which is one of the reasons I think the new project was started. To incorporate lessons learned.

Yes but many of the most common complaints about Age of wonders are no longer easy patch fixes. They would require extensive rewriting.

(See what I did there ;)).

So CoE3 will have good moddable AI then?

[Ighalli]

There are no formations. And you can only select spells from the wizards spell list but not script them.


Can you choose fewer than 3 spells prepared for a level 2 caster? I just played my first games of COE2 and was pretty frustrated when my Necromancer would cast Finger of Death (target resists!) instead of lightning storm against a stack of swordsmen. It'd be really nice to tell them they can only cast the spell you think is most useful in the battle coming up instead of picking 2 less useful ones too.

Is it going to be rows of people COE2 style? Can you choose which rank your officers & soldiers go into, at least?

How similar to COE / Dominions is the recruiting?

[JonBrave]

So CoE3 will have good moddable AI then?

Ummm, define good? ;)

[Gandalf Parker]

So CoE3 will have good moddable AI then?

Not sure about the moddable part.
But the AI is much better. Instead of one generic AI, each nation has their own and will make logical decisions that match that nation.

[Gandalf Parker]

Can you choose fewer than 3 spells prepared for a level 2 caster?
No. But there are many chances in the game to increase the number of spells you can select from. So a favorite mage can easily be upgraded to where you have enough spells to choose ones you think are good.

The spell casting is equally random between those spells Im afraid. Other than we are continually tightening it so that spells wont be cast against units that are immune to that spell.


Can you choose which rank your officers & soldiers go into, at least?Afraid not. The rows go infantry, then pole arms, then shooters, and finally casters.

How similar to COE / Dominions is the recruiting?I dont remember CoE2 well enough so I will copare to Dom3.
You purchase from the available list. Each nation is different. There are always some items always available to you, and then specials that show up. So I might alternate between getting 5 infantry then 5 archers for awhile until a commander or wizard shows up available to get.

And you dont set numbers of purchases. They come in bundles. If that nations has it llisted as 5 infantry then that turn thats all you can get at that location.

And there are much less locations you can purchase units than in Dom3. The MicroManagement is far less even if you play on the "insanely huge" maximum size map.

[Edi]

There are no formations. And you can only select spells from the wizards spell list but not script them.


Can you choose fewer than 3 spells prepared for a level 2 caster? I just played my first games of COE2 and was pretty frustrated when my Necromancer would cast Finger of Death (target resists!) instead of lightning storm against a stack of swordsmen. It'd be really nice to tell them they can only cast the spell you think is most useful in the battle coming up instead of picking 2 less useful ones too.

Is it going to be rows of people COE2 style? Can you choose which rank your officers & soldiers go into, at least?

How similar to COE / Dominions is the recruiting?
You cannot choose less than the maximum number of spells to memorize, but you can choose which spells you memorize. Mages will cast random spells from those memorized, but not completely useless spells (e.g. fireball against fire elementals, which are fire immune, or fire ward on own units if the enemy is entirely spearmen who have no fire attacks).

This is intentional, because otherwise the magic system would be wide open for abuse and many, many things would have to be severely nerfed. There are spells there, which would be instant, automatic "I win" buttons if they could be specified as the only spells being cast. That could vary situationally somewhat, but in general, the randomness factor is a good thing.

Think for example of the druid, who unsurprisingly has some spells to charm animals. A very large portion of independent monsters on the map are animals. Druid sets Command Beasts or Domestication (both aoe charm animal spells) as the only one being casts, then goes looking for large stacks of animals (who also have low magic resistance as a rule) and WHAM, instant army, I win, thank you, good night, hope you had a nice game.

There are other things which could be even more severely abused if not for random spellcasting. To the point where you might as well quit the game the instant an enemy mage shows up with that spell in his spell list.

The armies are largely rows of units in the same style as CoE2. Pure spellcasters are in the rearmost ranks. Missile units/spellcasters are in the rows second from the back (some monsters can cast spells, but count as ranged units instead of pure mages) and melee/ranged/spellcasters (units which are primarily classed melee, but can cast spells or also have missile weapons) are in the front ranks. The placement of commanders follows their classification (e.g. barbarian warlords lead from the first rank while captains, despite not having missile weapons, are grouped with the missile units).

Spellcasting from the first rank is very difficult, because the unit is engaged in melee. From the second rank they can cast spells as normal, the difficulty is only if they are in the first row.

[Ighalli]

Thanks for the great information, Gandalf and Edi!

Gandalf, that sounds exactly like COE2 recruiting. Does that mean if you're on the lookout for e.g. a scout that you have to go check the recruiting screen each turn until one shows up? In COE, there would be announcements when wizards or heroes were available for hiring but not for normal commanders. Do the commanders stick around for more than one turn if you don't hire them immediately?

Does the hammer resource represent Dom style resources? What is the brown resource (supplies?) that seems to be common to the characters?

So how does one level up the mages in this game? Are experience stars helpful to spell casters? I know there are booster items; do they make spellcasters go to a higher level or add more known spells? Is there also something equivalent to Dom empowering? We've seen what level 1 and 2 guys get on the screenshots, but what about level 3 or 4 casters?

[Soyweiser]

So CoE3 will have good moddable AI then?

Ummm, define good? ;)

Reacts to all player actions. Uses intelligent moves, and not just a large random generator (ps, a large random generator can work, if you just log which results worked and which didn't). Detects cheesy anti AI moves and counters them. etc.

Ow right, you wanted to bait me into trying to define something that could not be defined, amirite? ;)

[Edi]

Thanks for the great information, Gandalf and Edi!

Gandalf, that sounds exactly like COE2 recruiting. Does that mean if you're on the lookout for e.g. a scout that you have to go check the recruiting screen each turn until one shows up? In COE, there would be announcements when wizards or heroes were available for hiring but not for normal commanders. Do the commanders stick around for more than one turn if you don't hire them immediately?

Does the hammer resource represent Dom style resources? What is the brown resource (supplies?) that seems to be common to the characters?

So how does one level up the mages in this game? Are experience stars helpful to spell casters? I know there are booster items; do they make spellcasters go to a higher level or add more known spells? Is there also something equivalent to Dom empowering? We've seen what level 1 and 2 guys get on the screenshots, but what about level 3 or 4 casters?

Recruitment in CoE3 is a curious thing which has an entire page dedicated to it in the manual. There are two types, standard and special. Special recruitment has three different subtypes.

The short version is that you an always recruit from the standard list and doing so ends recruitment at that castle for that turn.

The three types of special recruitment are commanders, announced units and unnannounced units, which can be either be one-offs or multiples and which either end recruitment or don't.

Commanders and announced units always generate a recruitment offer message. Unannounced units don't, so for those you need to check every turn. Most nations don't have them, only some (like the Troll King). One-offs vanish from the list as soon as recruited, multiples can be recruited in several castles, but only once per castle. Some one-offs don't end recruitment, so you can recruit them and something else, but they are not common.

You can always recruit all commanders on offer, even if you already ended recruitment at that citadel. As long as you have the gold, of course, and in some cases iron as well. And all special recruitment offers must be reacted to immediately, they won't be there next turn.


As for resources, the hammer symbol is iron. The brown symbol is a cart full of goods and represents trade points (no trading between players, just exchanging gold for a special resource or vice versa).

Leveling up mages is a curious thing. Some (usually class mages) may or may not have rituals that upgrade them to more powerful status. Most esoteric mages (i.e. other, non-class mages) must first find a booster item and then learn higher level spells. New spells can be acquired, but the opportunities are finite. Level 3 is the maximum level of spells.

Experience stars work much the same as they do in Dominions. The bonuses are a little different but the basics are the same.

[Soyweiser]

Unannounced units don't, so for those you need to check every turn.

Whee more silly micromanagement.

[Edi]

Unannounced units don't, so for those you need to check every turn.

Whee more silly micromanagement.
That's relevant for three classes out of the current 17 and all of those classes work under the following constraints:
- basic recruitment list makes a glass jaw look sturdy (e.g. goblins)
- relies mainly on summons (Priest King) or supercombatants (Troll King) for muscle
- get either summons or supercombatants before they can amass enough gold to buy regular troops
- unannounced special recruits cost significant amounts of gold and iron
- or their unannounced special recruitments are available practically every turn

Having played with all three of these classes, the additional micro is negligible. Generally you don't ever have enough gold to blow it on unannounced recruitment anyway and announced recruitments are usually either something you don't need (very often anyway, like regular captains or equivalent) or will empty your treasury to the dregs (apprentices, mercenary wizards etc). If you even have the money for them in the first place.

You're assuming the management of things in CoE3 works exactly like Dom3, which it does not. It works much more like CoE2, except it's orders of magnitude better because the visuals allow you to identify things without needing to click on everything to inspect it in detail.

A typical Dominions 3 game has more micro by turn 15 than a CoE3 game has by turn 60.

[Soyweiser]

Nope, I'm not assuming the micro is the same as dom3, I'm just challenging the idea that some recruits should be hidden, while others are not.

The way it was described it sounded like a "****, I forgot to check recruitement last turn". Just like you always forget to rehire the dom3 mercs. (At least I do).

[Gandalf Parker]

I dont tend to miss too many. The important ones get announced in the messages at the beginning of the turn. And no purchases need renewed.

Also, it is only one menu to check. Not like dom3. When you open the recruit menu then all of your recruitable location are icon'd across the top. You can click on any of them then purchase the unit, then click another location and purchase something else. The only way you can miss one is if its not one of the announced ones (rarely) and you dont open the recruiting menu at all that turn (more often). I dont think I miss many.

I am more plagued with messages of specials being offered that I cannot afford. :(

[samoht]

Edi said, "The short version is that you an always recruit from the standard list and doing so ends recruitment at that castle for that turn."


So it sounds like you can only recruit one unit, per unit-recruiting-location, per turn? In CoE2 you could essentially recruit an unlimited number of units at a citadel or tower or fort, etc., assuming you had enough gold.

[Thilock_Dominus]

Is 'Dragon Lord' available in CoE3, like in CoE2?
Really like draconian armies.

[Edi]

Edi said, "The short version is that you an always recruit from the standard list and doing so ends recruitment at that castle for that turn."


So it sounds like you can only recruit one unit, per unit-recruiting-location, per turn? In CoE2 you could essentially recruit an unlimited number of units at a citadel or tower or fort, etc., assuming you had enough gold.
Correct, one recruitment per turn per citadel plus the commanders and one-off specials of a certain kind.

Soyweiser, for the classes that have unannounced special recruitment, it really is not a problem. Most of the time the recruitment offer messages are more annoying than missing unannounced specials, because missing those is not a big deal. Playing Bakemono, missing out on 3 Dai Bakemono or 3 Dai Bakemono Archers is not going to be crucial, they come and go, likewise for the Jaguar Warriors, Moon Warriors and Sun Warriors of the Priest King and the lesser units available for the Troll King.

Missing the recruitment of a troll may be annoying, but trolls generally cost an arm and a leg and you can practically bet the next 20 turns' income that as soon as you do recruit one of them, the next turn there will be a wizard or a giant on offer, and those are always announced stuff.

Missing one turn of unannounced stuff is nowhere near as bad as forgetting to renew mercenaries in Dom3.

[Gandalf Parker]

It is one unit at one location but the bulk units come in bulk sets. They might come in 5, 10, 15 so that one purchase can be buying 15 infantry with a cost high enough that you tend not to do that every turn.

@Thilock I havent seen any Dragon Lord yet but there are apparently still some nations to be added in.

[Ighalli]

Are combats still fought the same as CoE2? There, every unit on defense gets to attack before anyone on the offense, which means you often need an army that's twice as powerful to go on the attack. It'd be nice if the attacking ranged units could shoot before the defending melee units, at least.

Morale wasn't in CoE2. How does it work here?

[Edi]

Same as CoE2 in the order of battle.

If it was changed, it would have to be changed so that each classification of units would go separately in a turn based fashion, but you would have to include all of the steps (spellcasting/ranged/melee) in every phase (see my previous post on classifications), which would lead to a lot of repetition and possible error chances. I can ask Johan about that, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

Fear attacks target morale and if fear damage is greater than morale, the unit runs away.

[nordlys]

Same as CoE2 in the order of battle.

:cry:

COE2 combat was godawful, frankly.

If it was changed, it would have to be changed so that each classification of units would go separately in a turn based fashion, but you would have to include all of the steps (spellcasting/ranged/melee) in every phase (see my previous post on classifications), which would lead to a lot of repetition and possible error chances.

That's hardly difficult. See Emperor of the Fading Suns (circa 1995), combat worked exactly like that - indirect, direct, melee and psychic phases per turn for all units possessing a particular kind of attack. That alone would improve on COE2 combat immensely.

[Gandalf Parker]

Difficult doenst play into it much. That might not be difficult but it would be time consuming. The developers are still doing it as a fun hobby. We will have to see if Johan wants to.

Personally Im not seeing much problem with it. The game could be made more micromanaging but Im not really missing it even though usually like a high level of MM

[WraithLord]

Keeping MM to a minimum is a major selling point for me.
I'm playing dominions for years now and I'm sooooo tired with it's emphasis on MM. I'm looking fwd to playing casual CoE3 games that don't take forever to do a turn.

That said, an initiative based system for combat, resolved automatically, will only enrich CoE3.

[Soyweiser]

Look if they are developing it for fun, that doesn't mean people cannot still comment about it. Especially if it turns out to be a bad game.

And probably it is going to be one of those shrapnel super expensive games again. Which I would not be that interested in.

At least dom3 had interesting combat mechanics. That isn't really used anywhere else.

[Gandalf Parker]

Im not stopping the commenting. Suggestions and requests are fully expected and appreciated. Im just explaining so we dont get into long arguments about what should be done and why which might derail the whole project.

And again, no one has said it will be a Shrapnel game yet. If you have some reasonable suggestions feel free to post them

[Gandalf Parker]

Heehee. Im too slow. Edi has already started a new thread in the beta forum about the combat suggestions. With a long and well written explanation of what has been brought up so far

[Thilock_Dominus]

Desura could be an option to release the game through. It support both Windows and Linux.

[Gandalf Parker]

Desura looks to be shelfware/marketing style.
Im not sure that Illwinter is ready yet to go that route but I will mention it.

[Edi]

The issue of the combat sequence has been raised. We'll see what the answer is, though likely as not I'll only learn the results after the 13th, since I'm out of the country from 4th to 13th of January.

Like Gandalf said, anything that has a label of "lots of work and requires lots of time" is unlikely for exactly the reasons he listed.

A sequential 3 phase combat with spellcaster, missile and melee phases would probably only alter combat sequence mechanics (basically the order in which who does what they already do now) and I don't have any objection if the current system is changed to something like that. I don't have a vested interest in the outcome from a personal point of view.


However, anything like adding an initiative system would require some or all of the following:

- unit structure changes (and making them to all 650 (as of now) monsters)
- significant AI rewriting for 17 (as of now) separate AIs
- complete rewrite of the existing combat sequence code aside from damage mechanis
- significant rewrites of magic mechanics and spell structures, if magic initiative was to be spell-based rather than unit based
- integrating unit initiative of spellcasters with spell initiative of the spells they know
- since weapon and spell mechanics are essentially identical, initiative for weapons? And same problems there as above.

And then you would need to debug the whole shebang, which would be definitely be a non-trivial and very time-consuming task on top of all the time consumption that goes to the bullet points above.

Yes, there would be enrichment. But at what cost in time and effort required? Going "This would be awesome" is easy enough but making it a reality is another thing entirely.

[Thilock_Dominus]

Desura looks to be shelfware/marketing style.
Im not sure that Illwinter is ready yet to go that route but I will mention it.

The good thing to do this, is that you get the game out to a bigger audience :)

[Gandalf Parker]

Yes but shelfware and marketing requires a substantial layout by the company. To convince them to take you on usually means signing away rights. And then there is a year or two of payback before any profits get sent to the devs.

Its a good plan. But it is a gamble in hopes of higher returns. Which isnt such a big thing for them.

Of course players like those companies because when sales slow down the game ends up in a bargain bin while the company tries to recoup its costs.

[elmokki]

I'm not really sold with CoE3 at all due to it looking like it'll be far too simple, especially in terms of combat, but seriously, if you release your game in Steam/Desura you can still sell it on your own website and those two services, especially Steam allow a much larger audience.

Dominions 3 scene is small and slowly dying. If the game was a 5 euro/dollar sale game in Steam for the holiday seasons, you can bet there would be many new people trying it out. Right now the price is so ludicrously high and there's absolutely no visibility for the game that influx of new players is far lower than what it could be.

I believe that it'd be a terrible business decision for Illwinter guys to release CoE3 like Dominions 3. Having the game easily accessible with a cheap price of maximum of about 20 dollars / euros makes people buy it just because they are interested and it's cheap.

If on the way to get the game is to buy it for closer 50 euros / dollars from some fairly obscure web site, you won't get that many random people buying it after just trying the demo. After all, for 50 euros you can get a big distributor main stream game. Sure, that game could be worse, but people do regardless seem to feel like that game is worth more - and in economical terms the price is more justified since the production costs are probably hundredfold or even thousandfold.

Also underestimating the marketing potential of those distribution platforms, especially Steam since it's by far the largest, is not a good idea.

So, really, I see no logical arguments against at least asking what it would take to get the game published on Desura/Steam/Gamersgate/Whatever.

[Gandalf Parker]

Im sure they will be asking. But Im not sure it will be taken. Even a few concessions just for profit would probably shoot it.

And there are pros and cons to building your player base off of small price sales. Dont you use those forums? :)

[elmokki]

And there are pros and cons to building your player base off of small price sales. Dont you use those forums? :)

If you somehow are implying that people on the other forums are evil people who are bad for the community, well, I have to disagree, but even if they were, how on earth is that connected to low price sales? By me using the forums and arguing that low price is probably better solution financially?

I would like to point out that, for example, majority of the quality mods used by people are developed by people who do write to the other forums too. What you seem to be implying is that it's somehow a problem if the game has community very interested in developing quality content that probably desireability of the product and a community that also is very experienced and loves the game.

In any case to be on topic, more players means a more thriving community. More players means higher probability of getting talented people making content for the game. More players means more players for multiplayer. Though since CoE3 seems to be more single player orientated and if I don't recall wrong might not even have modding capability on release, a community matters considerably less.

Regardless, I do still stand behind my argument that lower price than that of Dominions 3 is probably financially better for Illwinter. I would also guess that it's probably better for the players too.

[Edi]

CoE3 is more SP oriented than Dom3 in that it can be played in SP against the AI and be a challenge, but it has MP also and I expect that would be where a lot of the action would be when it comes to communities.

[Gandalf Parker]

@elmokki What? Im also one of those other forum peoples. And yes most of the most popular mods come from other forums.

NO I was referring to the forums for some of those $5 and $10 games!
I feel there is a definite difference between Dom3 players and people who will only try a game because its cheap.

As far as those other forum communities (and the one you are apparently referring to) they are going to be very necessary since so far CoE3 is fleshing out to be primarily either solo play, or IRC blitz, much more than Dom3 is.

[Gandalf Parker]

Is 'Dragon Lord' available in CoE3, like in CoE2?
Really like draconian armies.
Its up to Kristoffer but Johan thinks probably not at release.
But he says maybe in a patch later.

[elmokki]

NO I was referring to the forums for some of those $5 and $10 games!
I feel there is a definite difference between Dom3 players and people who will only try a game because its cheap.

Well, regardless, price of the game doesn't correlate with the community alone. The type of the game does too. Dungeons of Dredmor for example has a very civilized and nicecommunity and the game costs like 5 euros.

Like I said, the more passionate players a game gets, the better it is for other players due to extra content and more multiplayer opponents (provided those things are possible).

[Admiral_Aorta]

Im sure they will be asking. But Im not sure it will be taken. Even a few concessions just for profit would probably shoot it.

Uh, Steam don't ask developers to alter their games and as long as your game works you can pretty much get it on steam. If Illwinter really want to get their game out to a wider audience then Steam is the best option.
Sales figures for Steam have not been released by Valve. However, Stardock, the previous owner of competing platform Impulse, estimated that, as of 2009, Steam had a 70% share of the digital distribution market for video games.[6] In early 2011, Forbes reported that Steam sales constituted 50 to 70% of the $4 billion market for downloaded PC games and that Steam offered game producers gross margins of 70% of purchase price, compared with 30% at retail.[68]


That's an exposure that you simply aren't going to get putting it for sale on 1 or 2 websites.

[Gandalf Parker]

Well the discussions of Steam wont happen here. Of course players who use steam would want it. More interesting are the discussions by developers. Particularly those on the Stardock forums after Stardock decided to start using Steam considering the background with Brad.

As for exposure, the distribute/publicity business model is pretty good for indie developers as it involves no debt of funds.

Personally I wouldnt be too bothered if it was off Shrapnel. That would mean that I can market it as I could not Dom3. I will be making my own recommendations to Illwinter. And I promise any suggestions made here will be brought to their attention also.

[nordlys]

A sequential 3 phase combat with spellcaster, missile and melee phases would probably only alter combat sequence mechanics (basically the order in which who does what they already do now) and I don't have any objection if the current system is changed to something like that.

:up:

However, anything like adding an initiative system would require some or all of the following:

That's understandable, if attack speeds weren't written into the system to begin with, retrofitting them in would be a royal pain in the ***.

However, how about some plain old random factor affecting the order of units within a phase? That shouldn't be any big deal to implement. The way I imagine it, all units about to participate in a given phase are enumerated, sorted randomly and act in that order. The defending units could get some bonus in order to keep some of that "defenders go first" advantage (which *is* reasonable when not taken to such extremes as in COE2), like all shifting a couple of positions up the sorted list.

[Edi]

I see a lot of praise for Steam. Personally, I detest that particular model of distribution for one simple reason: If I buy a game, I should be able to run it without needing a massive system resource hog third party application on my machine, which additionally requires registration and all that sort of thing.

There are other distribution channels even online which don't have such onerous handicaps associated with them, the most famous probably being Good Old Games. Sure, they require registration, but you don't need a massive software infrastructure associated with it.

However, as Gandalf said, the publishing discussion won't be happening here.

[Thilock_Dominus]

That's one of the reason I suggest Desura (the other reason is it's also available for Linux). With Desura you don't need Desura client to run the game you purchased.

[elmokki]

Steam DOES NOT require you to have your game use it in any way for non-Steam distribution. Steamworks API is rather simple and you should very easily be able to make the Steam version for Steam and a non-Steam version for whatever other ways you distribute it with. Of course it is extra work, but seeing Steam's market share it's financially probably easily worth it in nearly all cases.

There are many games that can be bought from Steam or can be bought from elsewhere and played without Steam.

[Soyweiser]

I think steam even supports different pricing schemes. So you can put a game on steam for 5 bucks, and sell it at your personal website for 10.

[Soyweiser]

As for exposure, the distribute/publicity business model is pretty good for indie developers as it involves no debt of funds.


Well, recently there have been more successful models for indie development. They way minecraft did it for example. Or the way a lot of other indie developers do it, by interacting with all your fans. (Examples to numerous to count). Dungeons of dredmor for example had regular blog posts what they where doing.

[JonBrave]

Dominions 3 scene is small and slowly dying. If the game was a 5 euro/dollar sale game in Steam for the holiday seasons, you can bet there would be many new people trying it out. Right now the price is so ludicrously high and there's absolutely no visibility for the game that influx of new players is far lower than what it could be.

Even if it were $5 instead of $50 (and we pretended that was profit), do you think there would actually be 10x sales? And, would there be ten times as many content Dom players? I doubt it.

[Corinthian]

Well, If we look at other indy game makers like say, Fractal Games; They probably had immense benefit from selling their games on steam.

The first games they made were the Penumbra series witch was sold as boxed copies and (probably) as digital copies from their homepage. (They are now) It was published by Paradox Games.

There are no numbers what I can find of how many copies they sold of Penumbra + expansions, but when they were making their new game, Amnesia, they expected to sell some 20-40k copies.

Amnesia was a similar game and should have sold a similar number of units. But they did things different this time around. They put Amnesia up for sale on Steam. And well, in the first year Amnesia sold 400K copies!

Although probably not all of those extra sales are due to steam. Well, it still paint a pretty convincing picture.

Amnesia was priced to 15 euros/dollars but 75% of the copies were sold during sales so the price was marked down. It was still worth it in their opinion because the sales generated 50% of their revenue.

Eh, you people can read more about it here: http://frictionalgames.blogspot.com/2011/09/amnesia-one-year-later.html#comment-form

[Soyweiser]

Dominions 3 scene is small and slowly dying. If the game was a 5 euro/dollar sale game in Steam for the holiday seasons, you can bet there would be many new people trying it out. Right now the price is so ludicrously high and there's absolutely no visibility for the game that influx of new players is far lower than what it could be.

Even if it were $5 instead of $50 (and we pretended that was profit), do you think there would actually be 10x sales? And, would there be ten times as many content Dom players? I doubt it.

On steam, yes. Steam is odd, it is the amazon of selling games. (What works, only works for them, and it works great. But copying their business model will fail, and if you compete with them you will always have to deal with them).

So if dom3 was on sale on steam it would sell like a ... thing that sells. Because steam has a huge impulse buying community. Sadly shrapnel doesn't have this.

[Gandalf Parker]

Bringing up the same information over and over isnt likely to change anything.
The fact that Steam (or something like it) could sell more games to more casual users has been mentioned many times already.
Its recorded and acknowledged. Lets move on

[elmokki]

Dominions 3 scene is small and slowly dying. If the game was a 5 euro/dollar sale game in Steam for the holiday seasons, you can bet there would be many new people trying it out. Right now the price is so ludicrously high and there's absolutely no visibility for the game that influx of new players is far lower than what it could be.

Even if it were $5 instead of $50 (and we pretended that was profit), do you think there would actually be 10x sales? And, would there be ten times as many content Dom players? I doubt it.

On steam, yes. Steam is odd, it is the amazon of selling games. (What works, only works for them, and it works great. But copying their business model will fail, and if you compete with them you will always have to deal with them).

So if dom3 was on sale on steam it would sell like a ... thing that sells. Because steam has a huge impulse buying community. Sadly shrapnel doesn't have this.

Yes. Tenfold sales aren't impossible in any way. $5 is a price where people pick it up at the price just to try it and with Steam it's like three clicks for any Steam user to do that. $50 is a price where very few people buy it before trying it and even then it probably takes some consideration to pay the price of a full AAA game for it (yes, dom3 is better game than many of those, but those games did still cost a lot more to make so they do feel more entitled to get $50 if I happen to buy them in the first place). As a bonus buying from a random site usually requires you to do more than just click three or so times.

As for tenfold content, obviously not. Probably still more content than with $50 price though.

Minecraft is a good example of a game that got huge exposure with just spreading the game on their own site. It's not really something you can compare CoE3 with at all though. Minecraft was revolutionary in terms of gameplay. It's also very easy to access even if you aren't really a gamer. It also cost just 10 euros at start which is why I bothered to buy it in the first place back when I did. CoE3 doesn't have those selling points and is bound to be more of a niche game. The game mechanics aren't probably going to be revolutionary for more than small parts really, and more than that, it's going to be a turnbased strategy game. A genre that you need to streamline really well to appeal to casual gamers.

[Soyweiser]

Bringing up the same information over and over isnt likely to change anything.
The fact that Steam (or something like it) could sell more games to more casual users has been mentioned many times already.
Its recorded and acknowledged. Lets move on

I'm not trying to change anything. Past experiences have made it pretty clear that it is futile trying to argue here. Just pointing out misinformation. Like Elmokki did.

[Jack_Trowell]

I'm just posting to signal a small error in the progress page: the dates goes from 30th December 2011 to 1st December 2011, looks like the month and year have not been updated in the changelog.

Oh, and happy new year eveyone ! ^_^

[Edi]

What misinformation?

Distribution channels were discussed and the Steam vs Shrapnel model has been discussed many times with regard to Dominions 3 and it is absolutely irrelevant to this discussion.

Of the online options I've tried, Steam is the one I detest the most due to the extra requirements (other software), so I would not personally prefer that, but that's basically the extent of what has been said against it. Availability also on channels outside Steam at the same time is a different issue. Given such options, I would choose a non-Steam option while someone else could go for the Steam version.

Steam or other such online distribution mechanisms are possible for CoE3 or it could be something more traditional, but the point of fact is that that decision is going to be made by Illwinter and nobody else and they have as yet said NOTHING.

The pricing of CoE3 has not been discussed at all, except by the non-beta testers who brought it up. And that's another issue where there is NO information whatsoever to be had, since it is another thing which is going to be up to Illwinter and whichever distributor they ultimately choose.

Now can we please bury this particular tangent, or would someone else like to flog that particular equine corpse some more?

[Soyweiser]

Misinformation about how steam works, (exclusivity). And how mass reduced pricing works for steam and non steam distributed games. And how cheap games have bad forums.

Sure the remarks have been made again and again. But people keep bringing them up wrongly.

I'm not trying to make Illwinter change pricing, distribution etc. From the beta testers remarks it is clear they do not value non beta tester input.

It is normal that in a discussion you sometimes go a bit offtopic, esp when people make remarks you think are wrong.

Also, reading back in the thread. Gandalf himself asked for reasonable distribution suggestions. So discussing them isn't that strange, and not really a dead horse.

[Gandalf Parker]

Soyweiser I dont tend to take offense to much (and experts here have tested that) but that post irritates me. Congratulations.

A) "not value non beta testers input" is probably purposely trolling. As beta testers BOTH Edi and I have made sure that all opinions get passed. We might not argue in favor of them but we do pass it and point out where the discussion is occurring so the devs can read it themselves.

B) stating your opinions, and me stating mine, is fine. But harping on the subject does NOT improve its chances with the devs. Are you new here or something? Havent you seen the result of please & thankyou as opposed to "idiots are missing the obvious" style of discussion in actually getting things changed as far as the companies involved?

[Soyweiser]

Sorry, but both of you are constantly are dismissive of any remarks made here. So as I cannot see into the beta forum, and a lot of behind the scenes stuff on this site has a questionable reputation. I'm skeptical. And never made it really clear that any information is passed along (Reading back, I see that I'm wrong it is mentioned that distribution suggestions would be passed along. My bad).

On the first page you already voice your opinion that releasing an open dev log is a bad idea. Not really something that fills me with trust. And first you ask for information regarding distribution channels, then both of you are very dismissive of any input. Most suggestions are either to expensive, creates horrible forums, or one of the beta testers detests the given option. Or it is just ignored. (How many times have people suggested that there are made youtube movies?)

Just look back at the thread, almost every suggestion is being dismissed by either you or Edi. Our (normal forumgoers) ties with Illwinter are not that close, we do not clearly know or understand what they want. (Actually, the times that I know it I do not understand it). And you made it pretty clear that even you guys have little influence in how it goes. So then it isn't that far off to think that I as a non beta tester have no influence whatsoever.

Sure it might irritate you, but this ivory tower dismissiveness of suggestions also irritates me. Especially when remarks about steam are being labeled as a dead horse just when there was a request for distribution suggestions.

So either we should shut up and not give suggestions (which are mostly dead horses anyway... this isn't meant as a troll, dom3 ai, and gui simply isn't that good. shrapnel pricing/distribution the same) or we should give suggestions which are then passed on to the beta forum (without being dismissed as irrelevant). There cannot be both.

I have no problem with the explanations of stuff and the updates however, those are nice additions.

[Gandalf Parker]

Hey I was trying to be supportive. Its not the suggestions being made. Its how they are being made.

Discussion here direct to the devs with no filtering I think has definite drawbacks. But so far the ones that I feel are being done wrong tend to shoot suggestions in the foot that I didnt want to pitch anyway. Im no longer a moderator. I can be selfish. I shouldnt have to try and be diplomatic and support things I dont agree with. So, fine. Go for it. I will back off and let it flow.

[JonBrave]

Dominions 3 scene is small and slowly dying. If the game was a 5 euro/dollar sale game in Steam for the holiday seasons, you can bet there would be many new people trying it out. Right now the price is so ludicrously high and there's absolutely no visibility for the game that influx of new players is far lower than what it could be.

Even if it were $5 instead of $50 (and we pretended that was profit), do you think there would actually be 10x sales? And, would there be ten times as many content Dom players? I doubt it.

Fair enough, from replies it seems concensus [Edit: apparently "consensus", sigh] is that it would increase sales tenfold.

But the other bit of my post was that IMHO you would not get ten times as many happy Dom3 players. I just don't believe there are ten times as many people out there who would think Dom3 was great, or even playable. It's such niche audience.

[Edi]

I think that as far as my posts earlier in the thread are concerned, you need to go back and read the lot of it again if you think I have been dismissive of the concerns raised here.

My contributions to this thread have mainly been answering questions, often in quite detailed manner and trying to be as precise as possible without going to novel length posts to do it.

I explained to you at length why the concerns about recruitment micro were unfounded. That's the only one. The combat sequence issue that nordlys brought up has been raised with the devs, with the points brought up in this thread all put in there.

The distribution channel discussion is speculation in its entirety and people are free to hold any opinion they like on that issue. I have made clear which is the least favorite for me, but I'm open about the remaining options.

As for other suggestions, yes, the YouTube video suggestions have been noted and I at least have considered trying to learn enough about making one. Since I've never once done any video recording or editing of any sort and my YouTube-fu is limited to being able to find some songs I like there and listening to them, it might not happen instantly.

To date, time constraints have prevented me from trying to do anything about it, since what time I have had has mostly been tied up with the following stuff:

- Work
- Family
- CoE3 testing and debugging
- CoE3 manual
- CoE3 map editor guide
- Preparations for the upcoming trip to Thailand (departure tomorrow)

So there might be something at some point. Can't promise when. But if anyone starts acting like it is obligatory for us to produce a YouTube video, the likelihood that I will do so is going to start approaching zero in short order.

As far as influencing what happens with CoE3, a lot of suggestions from the beta testers have been incorporated and implemented, most of it being either user interface stuff or things that reduce micro or in some cases things that improve visuals (other than unit graphics, so I guess it could be counted as UI stuff). If I had to go back to the first version I was testing from the current one, I'd be tearing my hair (what little remains of it) out in frustration because of the lack of all the stuff that makes life easier that has been added since.

Thing is, mostly we have worked with the existing mechanics and have not suggested anything that requires drastic rewrites of large blocks of code.

Suggestions from here (other than the YouTube video requests) have mainly tended to stuff that would require large rewrites or content wise is something that may or may not appear (either at release or in a later patch) or else have been related to the distribution issue. Other than that last one, the likelihood of the suggestions being implemented is often either completely or in part related to the amount of work required.

The other factor there is what kind of vision Kristoffer and Johan have for CoE3. If a particular suggestion goes against that, there is nothing that can make it viable. Absolutely nothing.

My aim here in this thread is to answer questions about the game to the best of my ability, but if a suggestion is something that has roughly a snowball's chance in hell of happening (because of all the work and changes it would require), I'm not afraid to say so.

I'm trying to serve Illwinter's interests as well as those of the people who are interested in this game and just going "Mmmhmm, yeah, that's good" even if I know something to the contrary isn't going to help anyone.

I hope that clears things up as to where I stand with regard to the discussion of CoE3 development. In any case, I will not be participating in this discussion for the next week and a half due to the aforementioned trip abroad.

[Gandalf Parker]

Excellent Edi.
Id also add that the conversations here are inline with the forum managements preferences. If you dont like how we present things then for people who prefer the conversation styles of the other forums it might be best to discuss it there with the beta representatives on that forum. Im not being rude. There are beta people in most of the forums who might present your interests in the manner you wish.
(No I will not say who they are. If you ask there and they dont speak up then its not for me to out them)

SA people and Qto3 people, you know Im your "beta rep" if you want to discuss it there. :)

[Soyweiser]

Have a good trip Edi.

Thanks for the explanations both of you.

[Strabo]

I mostly lurk this forum and rarely post, but...
It's really interesting to read the devlog and posts from beta-testers in this thread. It looks like this game will be perfect for me, I'm sure right now, that I'll but it. The only wish I have is modding capabilities (especially with no hardcoded limits like in Dom3, or with broad limits). I'm here just to say, that I appreciate all the work of developers, beta-testers and idea-givers. Thank you all, and keep up the good work!

[adder83]

- Preparations for the upcoming trip to Thailand (departure tomorrow)



Are you a lichenologist?

[Gandalf Parker]

I'm just posting to signal a small error in the progress page: the dates goes from 30th December 2011 to 1st December 2011, looks like the month and year have not been updated in the changelog.

Oh, and happy new year eveyone ! ^_^
Reported and Repaired.
Good catch.

Or if I had editing powers I could do it like they do in the beta forum. Turn your original post to green text (meaning its fixed). Or purple text (meaning WAD Working As Designed)

[Knai]

Preparations for the upcoming trip to Thailand (departure tomorrow)
If you get the chance to see Chaang Rai or Chaang Sen, go for it. Both are incredible, though for very different reasons. Or at least, they were back in 2004, when I lived in Thailand for a year.

[nordlys]

But the other bit of my post was that IMHO you would not get ten times as many happy Dom3 players. I just don't believe there are ten times as many people out there who would think Dom3 was great, or even playable. It's such niche audience.

Keep in mind COE (judging by COE2) is much easier-to-get-into and more "casual" than Dominions. In fact, I have no problems imagining COE2 as a flash or a mobile game (actually, I think Illwinter could benefit a lot by considering the ios/android ports for some additional untapped market for COE3 - and no, before you ask, I don't have either platform and don't plan to get one :D ). So it does have a much wider potential market in my opinion than the ultra-hardcore and, dare I say, elitist Dominions.

[Strider]

Yes, CoE3 is "fun" to play.

As for Edi and Gandalf's comments, they are completely honest. When they say your comments have been brought up in the beta forum, they have. In all the betas I've worked on, no developer has ever asked, or responded to a beta tester's opinion on distribution or pricing.

[samoht]

In CoE2, in the early games, the warlord characters were typically superior, while later game gave the advantage to enchanters, demonologists, etc. From my experience, there typically wasn't anything that could really change this. Warlords might get lucky and recruit a wizard, but the wizards weren't game changers at all. Mostly something that would give them an advantage to a comparable army, but not against all the magic beasts that they might face in the late game.

Is there anything in CoE3 that is going to give the warlord characters a bit more of a late game edge, like more access to more powerful wizards? Or are they still banking on using their early game advantage to dominate quickly?

[Gandalf Parker]

They arent quite so cut-n-dried for melee OR magic. But they do tend toward early-game or late-game powerful. I think they all have something to spread that out abit. And we do tend to keep asking for things like that. Im trying hard to rotate continually thru the different nations and come up with some sort of suggestion each time.

Im still hopeful that some of the balance experts might jump in for detailed comparisons before its released.
And a YouTubey/AAR person

[Gandalf Parker]

ON THE OTHER HAND
The AI is very good. And the alliance options are a lot of fun. Choosing a team with one melee and one magic works well even if you leave your partner as AI. Certain teamups are fantastic. If they do not overlap on what resources they use then you can easily share territory. The melee can provide early game expansion and protection, then when running up against armies of summons the partner can come forward with all the power he has built up under that protection

[Doo]

Sounds good Gandalf.

If anyone gets a AAR done for youtube I'd be thankful :)

[WraithLord]

May I ask what would you say are the key features in which CoE3 is better than it's predecessor?

[Ighalli]

May I ask what would you say are the key features in which CoE3 is better than it's predecessor?

I'm also eager to hear about what changes there are since COE2. It sounds like the interface is the major difference along with spell casters working somewhat differently. What sort of new stuff has been put in or changed?

[Gandalf Parker]

To tell you the truth at this point I would have to go back and play CoE2 in order to give a decent answer. Im not eager to do that. Its even getting to the point that I have trouble comparing it to Dom3 because there is enough similarity to be confusing after playing CoE3 multiple times a day for 6 months. Maybe some other beta tester has a firmer remembrance of CoE2

[samoht]

I know the Illwinter guys posted a couple pictures a while back, but would it be possible to get a couple more screen shots? I know a detailed AAR or a youtube video might not be within the abilities/time constraints of some of the beta testers, but I wouldn't mind getting a couple more sneak peaks of what some of the different features are going to look like, so long as it is within the bounds of what you're allowed to do/share as a beta tester.

[NTJedi]

I know the Illwinter guys posted a couple pictures a while back, but would it be possible to get a couple more screen shots? I know a detailed AAR or a youtube video might not be within the abilities/time constraints of some of the beta testers, but I wouldn't mind getting a couple more sneak peaks of what some of the different features are going to look like, so long as it is within the bounds of what you're allowed to do/share as a beta tester.

I agree about the youtube video... it will help spark interest in the game amongst the other gaming communities and even with my own relatives.

[ioticus]

Did someone mention doing a youtube video yet?

[GFSnl]

Hey,

I can watch Youtube :happy:

[Gandalf Parker]

A YouTube was mentioned, and a great idea.
But apparently no active beta tester has any experience with doing a YouTube LP or AAR

[samoht]

A YouTube was mentioned, and a great idea.
But apparently no active beta tester has any experience with doing a YouTube LP or AAR

Thats understandable. Rereading my last post, I might not have clearly made my request. Basically, understanding that not everybody has the time/ability to do a youtube AAR, I was just wondering if it is possible to see some more screen shots.

I get nerdly turned on for screen shots. :o

[Gandalf Parker]

At the moment my ability to upload screenshots is borked. And my game machines are buried deep behind walls.
But I like the idea. If I get time I will work on it

[Edi]

I'm back from Thailand and I expect I could run a few games during the weekend and take some screenshots. Uploading them is no problem for me.

[samoht]

Awesome! Thanks for keeping us in the loop.

[Gandalf Parker]

Ask and you shall receive.
A few screenshots are available on the progress page now

And Welcome Back Edi :)

[ioticus]

Ask and you shall receive.
A few screenshots are available on the progress page now

And Welcome Back Edi :)

Looks great. I notice the spells are all level one or two. Is level 2 the highest they go?

[Soyweiser]

http://www.indiedb.com/games/conquest-of-elysium-3/videos wow, a video!

[Edi]

Ask and you shall receive.
A few screenshots are available on the progress page now

And Welcome Back Edi :)

Looks great. I notice the spells are all level one or two. Is level 2 the highest they go?
Level 3 is the highest, but they are hard to get. A fully upgraded mage (or a level 2 one generated with a pre-equipped magic booster item) has level 3 spells and some summons like demon lords or elemental kings and queens have level 3 spells.

Of course, the usefulness of a level 3 vs a level 2 spell is situational. Some level 3 spells are always more useful and some level 3 spells you never want to use at all or there can be level 2 stuff that is generally more useful.

[Ighalli]

Maybe this isn't decided yet, but is it possible to play a LAN game with only one serial key? I'm just wondering if I'll have to buy a second copy to play with my GF on our two computers instead of a hotseat.

That video makes the game look pretty slick! Thanks to whoever made it.

[Gandalf Parker]

Protection schemes tend to come late. I think partly because whoever the distributor will be might have a say in it. Until late development those things stay simple to simplify testing

[Jack_Trowell]

@Edi, when you write that there are some level 3 spells that you don't want to use, do your means it in the context our your spécific faction/army/situation (the spell could be useful in some other situation, like a spell doing fire damage to both armies being really useful only if you're playing with an army protected from fire or ready to sacrifice your army and the caster against a larger army) ?

It would be a shame to have are such high level spells being really useless in game.

Hum, just noticed on the indiedb page that the game is listed with a release date in February !

[Gandalf Parker]

Some of the spells have an area effect of the entire battlefield. They are good spells, but must be used carefully.

[ioticus]

@Edi, when you write that there are some level 3 spells that you don't want to use, do your means it in the context our your spécific faction/army/situation (the spell could be useful in some other situation, like a spell doing fire damage to both armies being really useful only if you're playing with an army protected from fire or ready to sacrifice your army and the caster against a larger army) ?

It would be a shame to have are such high level spells being really useless in game.

Hum, just noticed on the indiedb page that the game is listed with a release date in February !

I was just going to ask the same question. Excellent catch on the release date. I can't wait!

[samoht]

Question regarding AI difficulty levels.

Will higher levels of AI Difficulty actually reflect smarter decisions made by the AI? Or does the AI cheat or get pre programed advantages at higher levels, like more income, etc.

[ioticus]

Question regarding AI difficulty levels.

Will higher levels of AI Difficulty actually reflect smarter decisions made by the AI? Or does the AI cheat or get pre programed advantages at higher levels, like more income, etc.

I asked this earlier and Edi said the AI doesn't get smarter it gets resource bonuses.

[Gandalf Parker]

However, the AI is much better than Dom3. Instead of one generic AI for all nations, these are separate and play specific to that nation. A marked improvement.

Ive been in debates in the AI forums of dev sites about smart vs cheats. Levels of smart AI are hard to envision. That would be taking the best you have, and chopping it up to make it dumber. Its going to be awhile before the upper level of that would be a better-than-human player so that the range extends below AND above the average human player. The best that has been achieved in games has been randomly chosen different AIs (aggressive, defensive, medium) which Dom3 had. Its possible with one AI (such as games with only one opponent to write the AI for). To mix different AI styles (defensive, research, turtle, expansion, aggressive, horde) within the AIs logic for each nation, would probably move a games release at least a year further IMHO
But it would be nice

[Doo]

A good video, cheers whoever posted it :)

I noticed that towns you own have a simple border of your color, anyway to make the towns have flags or the like? Little things like that add player immersion in the game.

I'm going to play some CoE2 to remember....

[zlefin]

Please make the ai highly moddable.
While making ai takes a lot of time; once a game is out for awhile, sometimes there's peopel who will put in the time to seriously build/tweak ai.

I wish i was in the beta, got any slots? :)

also, is qm in? qm should be, with all the balance work he's done.

[Gandalf Parker]

Flags would get very cluttered. Some nations can only claim cities and mines. But others can claim swamps, and forests, and lots of other things.

[Edi]

Most level 3 spells are useful, but some you really need to watch. There are also differences between spells of the same name that belong to different disciplines of magic.

To take an example, Black Death is available to Necromancy, Foul Magic, Nahualli Magic, Kuro Do, Troll Magic and Hedge Magic. It is a mass disease spell. In Troll magic it has an aoe of "all enemies". In all the others its aoe is "entire battlefield", which is obviously going to also hit the caster and all of his troops.

Undead are not affected by disease, so the only one who can use it reliably without shafting his own troops is a necromancer who has already transformed himself to a vampire or a lich. Given that disease has little direct effect in combat (well, Str -1, so less damage inflicted by those affected) but is otherwise much like Dom3 disease, the usefulness of that spell is much less than, say battlefield damage spells (especially if your own troops have immunity).

Then there is stuff like Meteor Showers which is a 1d20 blunt + 1d8 fire battlefield damage spell. It's great if you have tough troops of your own who can take the pounding and a caster who's either immortal or tough enough to survive and the enemy has more fragile troops. If you only have standard troops and a standard (i.e. fragile) mage, casting that spells is a surefire way to wipe yourself out pretty thoroughly. So use with care.

Whereas something like Hellfire (battlefield wide 1d10 fire damage) is great to spam if you have a fire immune army. Of course, if the other guy's army is also fire immune, that spells is decidedly less useful.

There are this kind of considerations in many cases. Also one of the things is that sometimes it is actually useful to memorize "useless" spells (such as poison resistance when facing units with no poison attacks) in order to curtail the choice of spells available for casting in a given battle. Then the random selection has a greater probability of hitting something you want, especially if there is one spell you would prefer the mage to cast over others.

[Ragnarok-X]

Did someone mention doing a youtube video yet?

no, i dont think so. but its indeed a great idea.

[Gandalf Parker]

There is a video altho not on youtube. Its on IndieDB
http://www.indiedb.com/games/conquest-of-elysium-3

[WraithLord]

Thank you for the screen-shots & video. The game looks awesome.

I recall there was another thread re. COE3 where IIRC I asked about PBEM but I can't seem to find it. So I'd like to ask again what MP forms are supported?- Hot Seat only?

[Gandalf Parker]

So far.....
The setup is much like Dom3's direct-connect method. Blitz game style.

I can setup a game by simply telling it "server mode" and what port to use. People then bring up their copy and connect by telling it my IP and the port I assigned it. There is no PbEM. The turns in CoE3 would be awfully fast for PbEM anyway.

After that it gets quite different. The game parameters are setup by the players, not the host. And the games go very fast. Players can drop out, and drop back in, or someone else can pick up a players position who has dropped out. And the turns move very fast. I think it will tend to play best if done thru IRC or Chat. OH and in server mode the turns are simultaneous. You can watch your allies actions as they make them

So far of course.

[WraithLord]

Sounds great for the blitz oriented crowd.

For casual gamers who don't have time to sit out a blitz game PBEM would work better I assume. That, or a scheme that allows players to play on and off in slower paced games.

[Gandalf Parker]

It can be taken down and put back up. It does have autosave, game restore, etc.
So if people wanted to play 100 turns then drop it till another day, that would work. But there is no in-game communication so without IRC or Skype or something then it would be hard to manage

[WraithLord]

That could work well.

Are all the players required to play at the same time?- I gather that the answer is yes. This will limit the game players to the same TZ and similar routine (as in have a free evening on a given day...).

[Gandalf Parker]

They dont have to play at the same time. But really, even in late game the turns are so quick that I dont see a game being done one-turn-a-day. I guess it will probably be tried so someone might like it but it doesnt seem likely.

Ive always said everything has its pros and cons. I guess that goes for MicroManagment also. If there is none, there isnt much of a turn. The game goes quick but doesnt work well for the usual Dom3 style games

[Doo]

Whats it like managing the wandering neutrals who steal your towns, gallows, forests ect., ?

Playing CoE2 yesterday I was reminded what a pain they are. I guess in CoE3 you don't need to click on a stack to see what "type" it is (for neutrals) and in CoE2 generally only certain types steal your captured points, so this probably makes it easier. And being able to zoom out means monitoring the map is easier. In CoE2 I'd forget to check part of the map and then find a stack of two bandits have stolen everything.

On this point is there a way to see exactly where other players, including neutrals, move to? An optional button to display a path where stacks have moved from might be good.

[Gandalf Parker]

In the usual glorious manner of Illwinter, the answer becomes "its different for each nation".
They are all nicely unique. Some have to worry about takeovers and sneak-ins more than others.

the Baron nation is able to create PD in towns and cities

the Witch, and the Druid, claim forests and swamps. So anyone entering them takes off the ownership. It makes it hard to sneak up on them

Troll King takes the Ancient Forests. His Mum and witch doctors can change those, and normal forests, into troll forests which generate carrion creatures. So they have a wandering PD

Bakemono generates continual new troops at mountain mines. Also the Dwarfs do if they have turned it into a colony by placing a Dwarf Queen there.

High Cultist (Chulhu/Rlyeh) creates spawned aquatic hybrids and insane peasants automatically at any seaside town or port they take

There are others but you get the idea. The ones that do not have some sort of spawned help tend to have lots of cheap commanders and cheap troops to do patrolling with. Some also have better abilities to see what is going on

[Edi]

The management of wandering independents is basically done so that you need to recruit cheap commanders like captains or goblin chieftains or similar, give them some troops (10 spearmen/swordsmen and 5-10 archers) and put them on snake patrol to kill anything that wanders around.

As for why any wandering stack is generally "snakes", is because they often are (swamps can randomly spawn snakes and serpents sometimes) and because the wandering stacks sneak up on you and snake all the stuff you spent so much time and blood (and consequently treasure, troops don't come cheap) conquering.

[Admiral_Aorta]

Huh, so you can set units to automatically patrol areas? Or do you mean manually patrolling?

[Edi]

Manually. Just station a patrol stack somewhere close enough to react to nearby important places like mines and such. There's no automatic patrolling.

[Gandalf Parker]

Yes the "patrolling" I do is just to make sure that in each large area I at least have one commander and some troops barracked to be able to move if something takes one of my sites.

I can place the commander on "sentry" so that it is not in the "n" key rotation of active commanders. Or if the game has gone on awhile and its a large map I might leave some unsentried so the n key will at least jump there so I can see what is going on in that area.

[WraithLord]

Is there a msg for resources taken by indies?

Is there a kingdom mgmt screen?

[Gandalf Parker]

There is the F1 screen like Dom3 has.
Also like Dom3 you dont get reports on losses unless you leave at least one unit there to give you a battle report.

[JonBrave]

Errr, why don't you guys stop asking questions and just wait & see how it is when it comes out? When you were all kids, did you cross-examine Santa/parents about every little detail of whatever present you were going to get?
:)

[Edi]

There is the F1 screen like Dom3 has.
Also like Dom3 you dont get reports on losses unless you leave at least one unit there to give you a battle report.
However, you do get a visual indicator of a colored bar (same as your player color) over the structure somebody took from you on the turn it was taken, but those are easy to miss, especially once you get a larger territory on a big map.

[Doo]

I'd like a simple system to draw my attention when something I own has been taken.

A message that simply says "We have lost 2 forests, 1 village and 1 farm this turn". Then on the map you could press a key and it will "ping" those locations.

On that note, how functional is the map when zoomed out? At max zoom out are locations and location ownership clearly visible?

[Gandalf Parker]

It is clearly visible on my machine. Its also very clear because of "fog of war".
Places you (or your ally) have not explored or scyed yet are black.
Places you have explored but have no one there now, are dim and terrain only is visible.
Places you own, and a certain area around it (depending on type) are brightly lit up. And you can see other armies there. This is true even if you dont have a unit parked there.

So with abit of attention you CAN see enemy army activities in your zone. And the maps are not incredibly huge like Dom3. (not yet anyway but Im pushing on it) :)

[Edi]

On any given turn you could lose upwards of 15 or 20 forests if you can flag them (like e.g. Druid and Witch can), so that idea loses its appeal really fast. The constant messages would become really aggravating in short order.

At max zoom you can see ownership of squares just fine (at least for the brighter or stronger colors like red, yellow, white etc), even though the only recognizable things are the general terrain features and some of the more distinctive structures (e.g. city). However, you won't even need max zoom and if you just zoom out at the beginning of a turn, you should be able to see if any of your holdings have a fat line across them.

The darker colors like blue have a little bit harder at max zoom, but you really don't need it that far out.

Playing on max zoom all the time is practically impossible.

[samoht]

Errr, why don't you guys stop asking questions and just wait & see how it is when it comes out? When you were all kids, did you cross-examine Santa/parents about every little detail of whatever present you were going to get?
:)

As a matter of fact I STILL cross-examine Santa/parents about every little detail of whatever present I'm going to get.

Also, we're asking questions because we're excited. Some of the answers we hear might serve to allow us the opportunity to make suggestions.

[Gandalf Parker]

I dont mind answering the questions. As long as they are in the mood of curiosity. There wouldnt be much discussion without them. And it does spark some suggestions.

On the previous subject. I forgot that losses of any type are marked by a solid bar thru them of your color

[Doo]

Cheers for answering the questions Edi and Gandalf.

I am pretty keen on this game but have been burnt on games I was pretty keen on in the past. Its good to have questions answered.

CoE2 had magic items, not made by the player but occasionally you would come across them. Anything like this in CoE3?

[Edi]

Cheers for answering the questions Edi and Gandalf.

I am pretty keen on this game but have been burnt on games I was pretty keen on in the past. Its good to have questions answered.

CoE2 had magic items, not made by the player but occasionally you would come across them. Anything like this in CoE3?
Yes, there are several dozen different magic items, some of which can be very powerful. Most of them give minor benefits, but some of the powerful stuff in the right hands can be quite a game changer, especially if you luck out early on.

Old friends from Dominions include Monolith Armor and Aseftik's Armor, Serpent Kryss, Demon Whip and Frost and Fire Brands among others.

[Ragnarok-X]

The video seems to be down. I have been trying to watch it for 2 days, but its not streaming at all.

[Edi]

The video seems to be down. I have been trying to watch it for 2 days, but its not streaming at all.

It's streaming just fine. You actually have to press the play button at the lower left corner of the video to start it up. And make sure your flash player is up to date.

[NTJedi]

High Cultist (Chulhu/Rlyeh) creates spawned aquatic hybrids and insane peasants automatically at any seaside town or port they take



Hopefully the land AI opponents are smart enough to attack water provinces in Conquest of Elysium 3, because in Dominions_2 and especially in Dominions_3 most of the AI opponents had critical problems with attacking water provinces.

[Edi]

In CoE3 there are no provinces, there are squares. In water squares, there is nothing. No underwater forts, no resources or anything else so far. So water can be safely ignored unless somebody uses amphibian units to sneak attack from the sea. Not a great concern most of the time.

Hiding out in the ocean is also not going to do anyone any good, since as soon as they lose all forts, they are eliminated.

[Jack_Trowell]

From the progress page:


17th January 2012
* Mac OSX version created.


Does having a Mac version means that it is officialy feature complete and there is only some balancing and debugging to do before the release (I don't know if Illwinter have something like "going gold" for their games) ?

Hum, if only it could be made available on android too ...

[Gandalf Parker]

I would suspect it just means he dug up a mac tester.

There will be a netbook version. But a phone version of ANY Illwinter game could be the end of our economy. Enough people get fired for playing Illwinter games at work now. :)

[Edi]

I would suspect it just means he dug up a mac tester.
We actually have two of those now.

[Jack_Trowell]

A netbook version ? Thanks for the informationn but I wonder why a separate version would be needed for netbooks ?

I would expect that playing on a netbook would only need at best some low-resolution settings and maybe lowering a few other graphic settings like it did for dom 3.

[Bossman]

It can be taken down and put back up. It does have autosave, game restore, etc.
So if people wanted to play 100 turns then drop it till another day, that would work. But there is no in-game communication so without IRC or Skype or something then it would be hard to manage

So, the game doesn't have a text chat? I really think you should add that if possible because it's a pretty important feature for multiplayer gamers.

[Edi]

AFAIK there is no separate netbook version. CoE3 has been designed as a netbook version, which is why some UI solutions are what they are. It does have the option to use lower resolution settings, but the detail level is not handled the same way as it was in Dom3 (grass etc).

As far as coding a text chat into the game, why? It comes down to the distribution of resources, in this case meaning the distribution of time Johan has available to spend on the game. IRC or similar is a quite adequate way to communicate with other players in an MP game and that way the time that would otherwise be needed for the text chat can be used to do some other features instead.

It's a case of prioritization and given the scarcity of resources, at least for me a built in text chat is very low priority.

[elmokki]

While I do not know how exaclty tcp/ip in CoE3 works, in Dom3 you do your turn technically in offline mode and send it to the server when finished and then wait in lobby for others to do their turns etc.

Implementing a text chat for the lobby should be fairly trivial. I mean seriously, if you already have what dom3 tcp/ip has, adding text chat for that is not very hard. Anything that has the basic server-client architecture can do "Hey, client sends data with specific tag, let's send it to all clients!" without huge effort and I highly doubt the UI components would be that hard either.

That said a text chat in lobby only is pretty cumbersome and it's easier to use IRC or something else provided you use that stuff already anyway.

I do highly doubt it'd be that huge job to implement a game wide text chat either for when you are connected to a server, but unlike above that's totally a guess and depends highly on how stuff is implemented in the source code. That'd be a good thing in general even if I personally don't really give a crap due to using IRC anyway. Most people in dom3 community seem to communicate via forums and email though, so it would probably be a fairly useful feature for them seeing how CoE3 is supposedly a far faster pace game than Dom3.

[Edi]

You know more about coding than I do, so I'll take your word for that chat thing, elmokki. For me it's not a priority, but I'll raise the issue with Johan.

[Gandalf Parker]

It can be taken down and put back up. It does have autosave, game restore, etc.
So if people wanted to play 100 turns then drop it till another day, that would work. But there is no in-game communication so without IRC or Skype or something then it would be hard to manage

So, the game doesn't have a text chat? I really think you should add that if possible because it's a pretty important feature for multiplayer gamers.

I have strongly recommended it in the server discussions. Thats one of my main testing areas. So I am trying to get an impression of how an MP game would run, and how hosting would be done. IMHO the speed of play makes this more of an IRC game than Dom3 is (and even Dom3 does that a lot)

ON THE OTHER HAND I have always supported Illwinters stance that adding things which are already available by 3rd party programs is not good and fun use of our one programmer. Common requests like backup, restore, file cleanup, screenshots, video record, mp3 playing, alarms/timers to not overdo the playing, macros, editable keypress tables, winner ladders, spreadsheet calculators, in-game messaging, in-game chat, in-game voice, etc etc. I do make the request when I feel it will help the game, and we do get some of them. But if its not an easy add for Linux/Windows/Mac then I dont press the goodies.

But again, yes that is a good idea. And some simple chat window has been requested.

[nordlys]

Why not have the same by-turn messaging Dom3 had? Sure it's ineffective when something has to be discussed and decided quickly, but sufficient for more basic communications.

[samoht]

I think in-game smoke signals should be implemented to communicate between players over short to middle distance, while a series of way stations used by AI controlled messenger characters could be used to communicate between allies. Professional heralds bearing gifts and tributes would probably be an effective method of conveying words between opposing players.

[Edi]

Word on the in-game chat is "Has been considered. Not likely in 1.0, possibly later in a patch but no promises".

[Gandalf Parker]

And by the way, Johan prefers "Mumble" for in-game communication.
I can see where that would be a good fit

[Bossman]

I can guarantee you that when the game is released and people start playing multiplayer, the number one complaint will be "there's no text chat!". It's a pretty standard feature nowadays and people are used to having it.

[Edi]

From a user interface perspective, a separate program is in some ways actually better because it won't be taking up screen real estate from the game UI. Which would be kind of a big thing here unless the text chat was put in the same space as the kingdom overview and those two were swappable. Which would still be an almighty pain in the arse. Otherwise it would have to be a slidedown or something else that you can get out of the way.

There are tradeoffs with any solution you can think of here. We'll see what Illwinter does, since the issue has been taken up with them.

[Gandalf Parker]

I can guarantee you that when the game is released and people start playing multiplayer, the number one complaint will be "there's no text chat!". It's a pretty standard feature nowadays and people are used to having it.
No offense but I hear that a lot. About many things.
I actually think screenshot is the #1 I hear. Then I think its reprogrammable menu keys. But Chat might be higher than usual for this game.

Im not sure that "standard feature" would do much. But the suggestion of re-using the Dom3 code might even though they tended to get more complaints than thankyous.
But I will mention that.

[WraithLord]

"* Most of the music in place." yummy, can u disclose more details?- If it's a band/group I'll start listening to their material :)

Oh and congrats for hitting ver. 2.9. I guess no pre-order this time.

[Gandalf Parker]

I can ask. But until another version pops all I have is the short place-holder songs that were used to iron out the code.

Personally I wish he had held off on the music. It makes the download much MUCH longer. I have at least 3 machines to update as quickly as possible each time a version pops

[Gandalf Parker]

I can ask. But until another version pops all I have is the short place-holder songs that were used to iron out the code.

Personally I wish he had held off on the music. It makes the download much MUCH longer. I have at least 3 machines to update as quickly as possible each time a version pops

EDIT: Johan were you watching?
I had just posted this and I look back. New version. *sigh*
I will comment on the music in an hour or so

[elmokki]

And by the way, Johan prefers "Mumble" for in-game communication.
I can see where that would be a good fit


Oh yes, obviously voice communications are even more fun, but people tend to not have microphones and/or tend to not like to speak to them (especially in their non-native languages). Also that stuff requires setting up a server so it isn't as low effot as IRC potentially is. Sad really. Listening/speaking is so much quicker to do while playing than reading/writing.

That said it seriously isn't expensive to rent a server. I pay about half an euro per month for my small Mumble server and anyone who regularily hosts games probably shouldn't have problems running a server from the host computer.

[Gandalf Parker]

The reason I say good fit is that its free. And it comes in Linux/Windows/Mac versions.

As for the server side... Ive run full ISP servers for about as long as Internet has been Internet. But the problem I have with Mumble is that I dont see an option to run it in text mode. I dont like bogging down my server with gui menus. On the other hand, Ive preached often that anyone can run a server. Any computer in the closet because it wont run the latest windows games can run free software and be more internet server than you and a 100 friends would ever use up. Unlimited email, unlimited webpage space, and running online worlds or games.
http://www.dom3minions.com/ServerInfo.htm

I do agree however that IRC is a better answer. I might consider running an IRC host on my server just for CoE3 altho I wouldnt have to since there are so many free IRC servers already available. I might even pick one and homestead a #CoE3 channel. And of course HERE the Chat button on these Shrapnel forums will still work for it without anyone having to download any software.

[Gandalf Parker]

Very nice music. Very pretty and easy to listen to.
Mattias Westlund
http://MattiasWestlund.net
he did the music for Battle for Wesnoth

altho I think I might have the same problem that I had with Dom3. I will need to play my MP3 library to put me in a suitably aggressive mood.

[ioticus]

I notice the latest version says "removed debug information and debug console". Does that mean they are no longer testing for bugs and the game has essentially "gone gold"?

[Gandalf Parker]

Good try. :)
Maybe, I dont think so. Up to now, the game displayed a lot of debugging information IN the game if you had the debug switch on. Unit numbers, Item info, etc. And the debug console allowed you to change things in the game in order to quickly check something out. So those in-game access to debug info have been removed.

However there is still a -d switch which allows access to a debug file much as Dom3 has in case anyone was wondering and uses that as much as I do.

[samoht]

altho I think I might have the same problem that I had with Dom3. I will need to play my MP3 library to put me in a suitably aggressive mood.

that made me 'lol'

I know this is slightly off topic, but with just about every gaming community I am/have been involved with I wonder about the mood music that people listen to. What music gets you in a suitably aggressive mood for Dominions/CoE?

[Gandalf Parker]

There are a couple of threads about it floating around here. I actually went and listened to many of the bands mentioned. Bought into a few of them.

Im VERY eclectic. All genres, all ages, many countries. And I can dance to just about anything from grandparents music to grandkids music.

For aggressive MP playing it has to be fast and hard. Good head-banger music. Basically my "Chores" playlist which is meant to keep me hopping.

On the other hand, in solo play I like to RPG nations with a druidical theme. My music for that can be much more tranquil and woodland.

I do have a hard Goth playlist also which does well for playing undead necromancy

[Gandalf Parker]

Lets try and spark the interest of everyone....
For those who like to fiddle with files and maybe host some games, here is an example of a games score file. Unlike Dom3 which does it in HTML,. CoE3 does it as a CSV file. This should be more friendly toward inputting to a spreadsheet or database
http://www.dom3minions.com/~gandalf/scores.txt (http://www.dom3minions.com/%7Egandalf/scores.txt)

Here is an example of the same games debug log
http://www.dom3minions.com/~gandalf/testgame.txt (http://www.dom3minions.com/%7Egandalf/testgame.txt)

[Edi]

Release date is February 20th and the game is now available for preorder on Desura.

[AngelSong]

Release date is February 20th and the game is now available for preorder on Desura.
Good news.

Will there be a demo before officially release? and when?

Is it possible to purchase on steam?

[Edi]

No idea on when we get a demo. No idea about Steam either, my post was going off the dev log.

The demo and distribution issues have not been discussed even in the beta testing venue in any detail since those are things where Illwinter is notoriously close-mouthed. I do expect that we will get some announcements before the release.

There are still some things to do. Quite a few of them my responsibility actually, since they are related to the manual and putting the finishing touches on it, but they are by no means the only ones.