Myth - EA, CBM 1.92, no diplo - tratorix/Agartha & Valerius/Vanheim win

[Valerius]

There's a new release of CBM and I'd like to give the new and improved Van a try. I figure we'll start the game sometime next week in case there are any bugs discovered over the next few days. Please note that this is a no diplomacy game.


Settings

Age: EA
Players: 7
Diplomacy: None
Victory condition: hold 4 caps for 3 turns
Hosting: llamaserver
Hosting interval: 24 hours up to turn 20, 48 hours up to turn 40, 72 hours from then on
Mods: CBM 1.92
Map: Custom map by BrodieSWR
HoF: 15
All other settings default


Roster

ghoul31 - Hinnom
Korwin (previously BrodieSWR) - Yomi
Larz (previously LongBrodie) - Tir na n'Og
Ossa - Ulm
PriestyMan - R'lyeh
tratorix - Agartha
Valerius - Vanheim

[ghoul31]

Hinnom

[BrodieSWR]

I am new to the forums and I have been looking for a new game to join. Can I join even though it will be my first multiplayer game? I have played lots of single player and read a few AARs. I am familiar with all of the game mechanics and spells as well.

If so, I'd like to try out Yomi.

I use the 1.84 in SP.

Has 1.91 made any strong changes to them?

[Valerius]

First off, welcome to the Dominions community! :)

As far as joining the game goes, I play for fun so I'm ok with it but I should mention a few things. It sounds like you have a good grasp of the game, as well as CBM, but keep in mind that MP is very different than SP. And without diplomacy you can't gather allies to try to even the odds. In the end, the worst that can happen is you have an early exit and learn some things (and hopefully have fun). It can have an impact on other players if one player is defeated too easily but I'm willing to rely on the other players realizing that and taking action (of course they may not help the person being attacked but rather try to get their own share of that player's provinces ;)). And of course you may do well - some new players are competitive from very early on.

Btw, if you're interested in getting advice from vets (without it being posted in a public forum for your opponents to see) you can try the Dominions IRC channel (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=33869). This is pretty much the way to fast track your MP knowledge.

So, it's up to you. I'll reserve a spot for you and if you'd like to give it a shot, feel free.

Also, the only comments specifically regarding Yomi/Shin/Jomon I see in llamabeast's change log are the following:

- Removed national hp nerf (standard Jomonese had hp 9, which was widely disliked)
- Fixed inconsistency in kami encumbrance (all now have enc 0, by analogy to elementals)

But there may be other changes to things like scales or magic items that you'll need to consider the impact of.

[BrodieSWR]

Wow! Thanks for the long reply Valerius! I'll try my best in this game. I enjoy putting up a big fight, and I am not a total noob. I am aware that players online will try to use every trick up their sleeve, included power gaming, which I'll plan ahead for.

The guides on this site are very useful, and give a lot of insight into the staple strategies for each nation.

I found the link to the CBM 1.91 changelog, but thanks for the quote.

See everybody in game when this gets started! I already have my pretender designed using the new CBM.

:D

[Valerius]

I enjoy putting up a big fight, and I am not a total noob. I am aware that players online will try to use every trick up their sleeve, included power gaming, which I'll plan ahead for.

Welcome aboard, then! :)

The guides on this site are very useful, and give a lot of insight into the staple strategies for each nation.

There's definitely good info there and on the wiki but keep in mind that most of the guides were written for earlier versions of CBM or vanilla so you'll have take that into account. Still, the basic character of nations (lending themselves to bless, scales, etc.) as well as the magic paths are relevant. Once the list of nations is finalized you may find it helpful to start up a game with those six nations, setting each to human controlled, and you can conveniently review the units you'll be facing (and even run some test battles if you want).

See everybody in game when this gets started! I already have my pretender designed using the new CBM.

You're way ahead of me then - I just started testing Van and considering builds. And speaking of testing, SP and MP are very different - but the beginning of the game, when you are conquering indies, is the same. So you'll definitely want to run test games to make sure your build is getting you off to a fast enough start to get your share of provinces.

[Ossa]

I'd like to join with EA Ulm as they also had a few chances.

I have quite a bad history with no diplo games as a few in here might remember, but that was due to an abnormal amount of stress - I'm having more time for my games again now so I'm quite confident that I'll manage to remember the rules;)

[Valerius]

I have quite a bad history with no diplo games as a few in here might remember, but that was due to an abnormal amount of stress - I'm having more time for my games again now so I'm quite confident that I'll manage to remember the rules;)

Lol, I remember reading something about that. :) Welcome to the game.

[tratorix]

I'd like to see if this CBM has made Agartha usable.

[Valerius]

Welcome! We just need one more player.

I spent some time looking at maps yesterday but haven't found anything yet. Ideally I'd like 65-75 provinces with perhaps a few water provinces to break up the terrain. I should note that Sixlands is a very good map but I've played so many games on it that I'd like something else. Suggestions are welcome. Also, I'm willing to edit another map if there's a section of larger map that would fit our purposes.

[llamabeast]

I would be tempted to join this if I were allowed to play R'lyeh - are you set on the no-water-nations thing? No worries if so.

[LongBrodie]

Hi! I would like to join playing Tir na Nog, if you'll have me. I've played a few multiplayer games so far, but I'm still fairly new. I'm BrodieSWR's brother, but I hope you won't hold that against me, especially since this is a no-diplo game.

[Valerius]

I would be tempted to join this if I were allowed to play R'lyeh - are you set on the no-water-nations thing? No worries if so.

Well, I kind of was more flexible from my default "no water nations, no Ashdod/Hinnom" terms this game anyway, so why not? But I don't want to change the terms on players after they've signed up so is everyone ok with adding a water nation? For that matter, does anyone else want to switch to a water nation?

Btw, I know there's been efforts to improve the improve the interaction between land/water nations so it might be worth checking this out. Part of my dislike is I got tired of seeing the water nations fight it out early and then the winner sat there clamming all game. That and the fact that I got destroyed trying to attack Atlantis when playing Van (little did I know that the answer was storm demons ;)).


Hi! I would like to join playing Tir na Nog, if you'll have me. I've played a few multiplayer games so far, but I'm still fairly new. I'm BrodieSWR's brother, but I hope you won't hold that against me, especially since this is a no-diplo game.

Sure, you're welcome to join. The only thing I'll mention is that if you and your brother are playing on the same computer (and therefore have the same serial number) we'll run into problems with a license violation.


Llama and LongBrodie, I hope both of you decide to play. No map has been decided on so 7 works as well as 6.

[BrodieSWR]

No worry, my brother lives in America, I live in Brazil. :P

So there won't be any problems with serial keys causing violation problems.

[Valerius]

No worry, my brother lives in America, I live in Brazil. :P

So there won't be any problems with serial keys causing violation problems.

Great, I've added add him to the roster. It's a funny thing; I play TNN so much that if I don't play them and someone else does I feel almost like someone took "my" nation. :p


Llama, I've tentatively added you to the roster. I don't think anyone will object as most players don't have my issues with water nations. So it will be mainly up to whether you decide to play (hopefully so :)). But someone may want to also play a water nation so that will of course factor into the choice of map.

[BrodieSWR]

I've been doing test games with the new changes added to CBM 1.91.

Agartha was changed a lot! Their final spell summons 3 crazy SC pretenders, and their new spells are pretty nifty. It's good to see them getting some love.

Speaking of which, Llamabeast, do you think that maybe, just maaaaaaybe, Yomi could get one itsy-bitsy tiny change in the next update to CBM?

Their sorcerers need a tiny change:

Currently they have 1 Earth and 1 Death with a 100% chance of receiving +1 to Air/Earth/Fire/Death.

Do you think that the 1 Death could be change to 1 Air? As it stands now, the Hannyas basically trump the sorcerers in most ways. With this one small change, the sorcerers would be a viable alternative because they would have a 25% chance of having 2 Air/1 Earth, which would open them up as fantastic, yet fragile support mages for the armies of Yomi, acting as casters for all kinds of nice spells such as Wind Guide, Lightning Bolt, Aim, and Contact Dai-tengu. They could also forge many items that would benefit Yomi greatly, and expand their options against certain nations whom they have many, many problems fighting against.

As it stands, Yomi's theme is about reckless and violent magical power on selfish, greedy demons, with lots of offense, and little defense. This one small change would open them up for more of their thematic demonic violence, and reduce some of their crippling redundancy.

Sorry if this is the wrong place to discuss this. I think I'll post this as a new thread in the main discussion forum later.

[Valerius]

I would suggest posting your comments regarding Yomi in the CBM discussion thread in the mods subforum rather than the main forum. Though thematically that seems a fairly significant change from the core paths of FED, as all of your cheap research mages can now cast orb lightning (or lightning bolt after casting summon storm power) and a quarter can cast lightning bolt/thunderstrike.

Which reminds me that I need to look over the rest of the changes in 1.91. So far I've only reviewed the glamour nations and MA Man.

I'm going to PM llama to see if he's decided to participate and also whether we should wait for another CBM release.

[BrodieSWR]

Mmm, good point Valerius, I didn't think about the CBM thread, :P. Durp!

But anyway, it could see how it could be a bit too strong, but I just felt like Yomi gets jipped seeing as how they have a whole slew of "national" spells that they can't even access reasonably well such as Contact Nushi and Contact Dai-tengu. Air magic is SO vital to Yomi that the fact that Air 2 Dai-Oni are basically godsends makes Air a NECESSITY on your pretender, severely limiting your builds and options.

Maybe if they were made a little more expensive to compensate?

Anyway, I'll continue this in the other thread as you suggested. Thanks for your point of view, it made me think twice. :D

[Valerius]

No problem. :) And llama may agree with you but I know he, and qm before him, like to stay with a nation's theme. Yomi has traditionally been considered one of the weaker EA nations (not sure if things have improved for them in recent CBM releases) so if that's still the case llama might well be open to a boost - but he'd likely want to make sure if was thematic.

But I see what you're saying about having trouble summoning national summons. Not sure if the idea was that you had to either get lucky with randoms and/or make sure your pretender can summon them but there have been other cases where CBM made it easier for mages to cast national summons so that's worth bringing up when you post in the CBM thread.

[llamabeast]

Hello! Very sorry to mess you around Valerius but I think I will drop out of this one after all. May just be because I'm knackered today, but I think I need to be careful not to overcommit. Really sorry about that.

I'll release CB1.92 this evening. Hopefully that should be it for a while (fingers crossed!). Not too many bugs reported over the last few days.

BrodieSWR - I don't know Yomi very well and have no opinion offhand. The best thing to do as Valerius suggested is stimulate debate in the main thread.

[Valerius]

Hello! Very sorry to mess you around Valerius but I think I will drop out of this one after all. May just be because I'm knackered today, but I think I need to be careful not to overcommit. Really sorry about that.

No problem, maybe next time. :)

I'll release CB1.92 this evening. Hopefully that should be it for a while (fingers crossed!). Not too many bugs reported over the last few days.

Great, thanks for that. Everyone please download 1.92 from here (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=47741) and use that to create your pretenders (there probably aren't any changes between 1.91 and 1.92 that would affect pretenders but might as well play it safe).

I'll set up the game on the server soon. The main thing is we'll need to decide on a map. Something in the range of 60-72 provinces would be good. Maybe a little water to break up the map but not too much. Btw, if anyone comes across a good candidate that's only problem is too much water please mention it as we can either make the seas dead (i.e. they generate no gold or gems and don't allow units to be recruited) or even eliminate some/all of the water provinces completely.

[Valerius]

Elmokki created a map called Galadia (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?p=701977). This map is much larger than what we're looking for but it seemed like we could take a couple of the smaller islands and use those. What do you think of the attached sample? The island on the bottom left would be connected to the larger island by three ports and there are also two water provinces between the small and large island. If my province count is correct, the map would have 61 land provinces and 2 water provinces. We could either set fixed start locations or take a gamble on random starts.

[BrodieSWR]

Looks interesting, but I think that map would have more than 2 water provinces.

[BrodieSWR]

I am using RanDom v2.03 to create some really, really nice maps! I am going to tweak them to make them more fair, and place some preset starting locations and when I am done, I will upload them here for you guys to look at and to tell me if you want to play them or not.

[BrodieSWR]

Ok, after generating maybe 100 maps, I have selected the 5 that I think are the best aesthetically.

I can edit these anyway that you guys like. The provinces that have half land/half water can be set to "fresh water" provinces, which is fun always fun.

Vote on which one you like the most, and I will edit/clean the map for fairness and balance and then we can play!

They are named as follows:

Odin1
Odin2
Odin3
Odin4
Odin5

Please look at all, and chooes just one!

[Valerius]

Wow, thanks for doing that! :) I've played around with RanDom a bit and it's a nice program. I especially liked one of Gandalf's preset color schemes.

Looking at the maps, I'd lean towards 4 or 3 but unfortunately I think they all have too much forest. I think it would be good to bump down the forest province percentage and maybe also the mountain percentage (water looks fine). Btw, I don't think the Dom map generator places mountain provinces, only border mountains, so we'd want to manually change some to mountain after the map has been generated (most can stay border mountain but we should have some true mountain provinces).

As far as the modified Galadia goes, there would only be two water provinces on the bottom left of the map (marked by the red lines). The rest of the water is just background color and not actual provinces. It also looks kind of rough on the shadow around the islands since I just did a quick cut and paste for demonstration purposes.

[BrodieSWR]

I have to go to work now, but I'll do some more maps when I get home tonight!

I'll lower the amount of mountains and forests too.

[Valerius]

Ok, sounds good. :) Btw, since you said you generated 100 maps I assume you're batch processing these (it's a lot less tedious that way)?

Also, are they in the area of 60-75 provinces? It's a little tough to tell from the JPEGs.

[PriestyMan]

Any chance on slipping into that Ryleh slot Valerius?

[Valerius]

Sure, I don't think BrodieSWR has begun working on another batch of maps yet.

Brodie, this will make things a bit trickier because we'll need to increase the water percentage and we'll want the water provinces mostly centralized, rather than all over the map. In terms of number of provinces, since there's only one water nation and only one amphibious land nation I'd say the water nation should have an equal or slightly lower number of provinces than the land nation average.

[BrodieSWR]

Well, I need to go to bed, and I've been working on this all night, but I should be able to finish it this afternoon.

Here is what I have so far. I am currently making it in photoshop:

If you guys have patience, we can play this game on a really nice, custom map. :P

[BrodieSWR]

Here is an update just to show my progress to you guys!

Please remember that the quality is being reduced by the JPEG conversion process on the forums when you upload the file!

[BrodieSWR]

The map is finished! I have to leave for work now, so I don't have time to set the provinces/neighbors/start locations etc. right now, but I will do it when I get home tonight!

Here is the semi-finished product for you guys to look at if you want to while you wait. Feel free to load it up in the Map Editor to check it out!

I also included a small preview image. Remember, the quality is reduced. :P

[Valerius]

Very nice! And it looks like it will play quite well. Thanks for going to all the effort to do this. :)

I feel kind of bad asking this but I think we may want to move the top three, or even five, water provinces to the bottom of the map. One of the issues for water nations is keeping their dominion in their provinces. If the water provinces are in more of a block, rather than strung out, it helps them do this. Sorry, I should have been more clear about that.

Another good thing is that each water province won't border quite as many land provinces as now.

But if PriestyMan is ok with the current setup we can also leave the map as-is.

[PriestyMan]

Well i would much rather have more lake-like water, but i'm not going to complain too terribly much.

[Valerius]

Well, if you're ok with it then let's make things easy for BrodieSWR and leave the map as-is.

It occurs to me that as a no diplo game it might be good to have victory conditions. What about holding four caps for three turns?

[PriestyMan]

Btw, the thread title says CBM 1.91, but i assume it will use CBM 1.92?

[Valerius]

Yes, we'll use 1.92.

[Valerius]

PriestyMan, are you definitely set on playing R'lyeh? I've been thinking over my bias against water nations and I find I reach the same conclusion as before - that I just don't like the way water nations are implemented in Dom. While it's no longer the case that you can conquer the water and clam the whole game, you still have tough penalties for troops fighting underwater. CBM has helped with the attack/defense penalties but the encumbrance issue is even worse and that still exists. But the biggest problem (by far) is that you have to forge a water breathing item for every mage you want to bring underwater and since most nations don't have a forge bonus that just got more expensive. Meanwhile R'lyeh's commanders and units are now amphibious and don't have that cost to deal with. Really, it just doesn't seem much fun to me.

I'm guessing you and llama would like to test the changes to R'lyeh but can I can convince you to switch to a land nation for this game? I'm fine with powerful nations being in the game (heck, take Niefel if you want) but I just can't get enthusiastic about water nations.

[BrodieSWR]

Well, if PriestlyMan chooses to play a land nation, it's gonna be a little difficult placing the start locations, unless of course you want to let them be random...

I drew the map with the intention of having 6 land players and 1 (optional) player in the ocean.

The current start locations were hand placed by me to ensure that all capitals were at least 4-5 turns away from each other and that they each had a minimum of 4 surrounding provinces and at least 1 farm for income.

There are currently 69 land provinces and 9 sea provinces. I can set 7 land spawns, but just to be fair, I need to warn you guys that it will be a very, very fast and brutal game, with many early conflicts, especially without diplomacy.

So it's your choice guys! Just let me know!

And by the way, I can edit the map... but I'd rather not. I already flattened the main .PSD file in Photoshop, so it wouldn't look as nice and might have seems somewhere in the ocean.

But, if you really want to, I can! You'd just have to wait another one to two days for it to be finished. :P

Anyway, everybody let me know what the deal is, and I'll set the start locations!

[Valerius]

Ah, the heck with it. I can put up with my dislike of water nations for one game. ;) And you've already spent plenty of time on the map so let's go with this version.

Btw, I think it would be worth posting this map in the maps & mods subforum as others might like playing on it as well (maybe post two versions - one with water provinces and one without).

I'll go setup the game on the server now.

[Valerius]

Ok, the game is setup on the server (the name is Myth1 since it needed to be at least 5 characters). At the moment I just have a placeholder map listed - once BrodieSWR finishes the map we'll switch to that. Quickstart is off so the game won't start automatically before we can change the map.

As regards victory points, if you control 4 capitols for 3 turns then announce that you've won. If anyone would like that verified we can have a third party look over the turns to confirm it (please save those turns once you've taken your fourth cap).

[BrodieSWR]

Alright, it's done!

Download the map everybody, and let's get this thing started!

I am going to post the final version here and in the Map Sub-forum.

The name of the map is:

POST DILUVIUM

In Latin, this means "After the Flood". I wrote a nice backstory for the map, so please read it.

[BrodieSWR]

Wait! I have created a new version with no fixed start locations!

I think it is more fair because I will know the locatoin of all capital cities!

The only provinces that I set to "no start" in this new version are the ones that have 3 or less neighboring provinces and that are unfair, such as wasteland and swamp.

Please check this one as well.

[PriestyMan]

I personally dont really mind, but that is a pretty tight map. 11 provs/player will make early land wars vicious. I like that usually, but i figured i would mention it

[Valerius]

I personally dont really mind, but that is a pretty tight map. 11 provs/player will make early land wars vicious. I like that usually, but i figured i would mention it

I have a current game with approx. an 8 prov/player average. It's been brutal - and very fun. I don't expect this to be quite as intense (11 provs is enough that there is some logic to getting some research done before fighting) but it should still be action packed. The main problem is you'll be sitting in the water waiting to snipe provinces from weakened land nations. ;) And it does pay off later in the game as the finalists won't have as much micro to deal with (that alone is a huge selling point IMO).

BrodieSWR, very nice job on the map! Thanks again for doing that. It looks like it will be quite fun to play. As far as fixed vs. random starts if we go with fixed starts we can just post a JPEG indicating all the start locations. I'm fine with either approach but I lean towards using the fixed starts since you obviously put considerable thought into their placement.

[Valerius]

It seems like there's no objections to using the fixed start locations version of the map. You can of course fire up a test game to check out the locations but in case anyone finds it helpful I've attached a JPEG to the first post that also indicates the starts.

I'll upload the map to the server shortly. I'm going to remove the space in the filename because I think that might cause a problem.

[BrodieSWR]

Well... I think with fixed start locations on a map this small, it is a little bad.

Seeing as how the capitals will be only 4-5 spaces away, someone could create a dragon or some other SC, and simply fly it to the enemy and crush them on turn 3.

:-\

[Valerius]

That's true, but since this is a small map even with random starts you could probably send your pretender off in a random direction and have a decent chance of spotting a cap to target the next turn. And of course if fails you've really put yourself in a hole spending all those points on a wasted effort. But really, I'm fine either way.

I've uploaded the image to the server and I'll upload both map files so they are both available to us and other games.

[Valerius]

Brodie, I was going to link the server to your thread in the maps & mods forum rather than this thread. Could change the version of the map you have there to remove the space in the filename? That way the map that people download will match what the server has.

[BrodieSWR]

Ok, no problem.

But how did you change the filename? Did you do it like this:

PostDiluvium.map
PostDiluviumRandomStarts.map

Also, did you remove the spaces on the .tga file too? I hope not, because the .map files reference "Post Diluvium.tga" as their image file.

[Valerius]

Yes, I changed the filenames as you indicated and edited the map files so they would reference PostDiluvium.tga. I've attached the renamed image and map files to the first post (everyone please download that so you don't get a message about a missing map image - or you can just rename your current map graphic).

[Valerius]

Sorry for the delay. My pretender is now in and the game has started. Hope everyone has fun and again a big thank you to BrodieSWR for the nice custom map we're playing on.

[Valerius]

Also, everyone please either download the renamed map attached to the first post or rename the files yourself to eliminate the space in the file names - otherwise you'll get an error about a missing map.

[ghoul31]

As regards victory points, if you control 4 capitols for 3 turns then announce that you've won. If anyone would like that verified we can have a third party look over the turns to confirm it (please save those turns once you've taken your fourth cap).

How do you know which cities are capitals?

[PriestyMan]

If it has your crushed opponents special sites of course

[Valerius]

You know, I've only recently started playing no diplo games with caps as the winning condition and I have to admit that didn't occur to me. It looks like since the map specifies the province names the game ended up using those instead of marking caps with the nation's name.

The only good thing is that at least it's consistent. I'm noticing in another current game some caps are labeled with the nation's name and others are not. In YARG2, which I subbed in to, Ermor's cap wasn't marked but C'tis' was. I guess scouting will give you an idea based on the units there and casting a remote scrying spell will narrow it down even more since you'll be able to see the kind of magic sites. And, like PriestyMan says, you'll of course know for sure once you conquer it.

This is something I'll have to keep in mind, though. My preference would be to have the caps labeled with the nation's name so I'll have to make sure that names aren't specific in the map file in future games. But at least everyone is in the same boat, rather than some caps being labeled properly and others not. And, if people really don't like it we could always reveal the cap locations after the first year when people don't have to worry about a flying pretender rushing them on turn 3.

[PriestyMan]

I've played a lot of games without marked caps. its not hard to remember who conquered who's caps and knowing how many they have. especially on a small map.

[Valerius]

That sounds reasonable. I guess it's trickiest in larger games where several nations have already been eliminated by the time you get good scout coverage and with forts all over the place and the eliminated nations' cap only units no longer being recruited you'll have to rely on scrying to figure out which provinces were their caps? Of course if you conquer everything you'll find them but let's say you're trying to target those provs in order to increase your own count and reduce an opponent's.

[LongBrodie]

Hate to do this early in the game, but I'll be traveling (and without internet access) for the next couple days. I'd appreciate it if we could delay the next turn by 48 hours.

[Valerius]

Sure, no problem. Hosting has been postponed until Thursday.

[PriestyMan]

Ugh. can't believe i missed this. and now its annoying. 77 and 76 are not connected up at the top

[Valerius]

Darn it, I missed that as well when I randomly checked some province connections before the game. The only thing I can think to do is put the game on hold, fix the map file, and PM llama asking him to replace the one on the server. If this were a land province I'd be inclined to play through a missing connection but given the structure of the water provinces on this map this doesn't seem fair.

Note: since this is no diplo everyone please be careful of what you say about which provinces are owned by which nations.

[BrodieSWR]

Wow, I apologize for missing this as well...

Please forgive me.

It is ironic, though, seeing as how 76 is called "The Broken Ocean".

Haha...

Anyway, I agree that we should have this fixed.

[Valerius]

No worries, Brodie. It's very easy to miss creating a province connection. And you did all the work to create the map; I should have checked it thoroughly. Truth is, after some random checks I got overconfident (and perhaps lazy as well ;)) and didn't go province by province as I should have.

I'll fix the file and PM llama as soon as I get a chance.

I also added 24 hours to the clock as a precaution and will add more if necessary.

[PriestyMan]

Its not *that* big of a deal honestly. i can play around it. I'm pretty laid back about these things

[Valerius]

I don't like to bother llama any more than is necessary since he already does so much. But I also don't want you to be put at a disadvantage. So, it's your call. I'll have a chance to fix the map in a few hours in case you want to go that route.

[llamabeast]

As I understand it, the .map file is only used to start the game. From then on the connections are built into the game itself. So there's no way to fix such an issue without restarting the game.

[Valerius]

Thanks llama, I wasn't aware of that. I was thinking of it being like mods that can be altered during the game. But thinking it over it makes sense since mods are in a sense external, while the map connections are built into the turn files.

Sorry about that, Priesty. Are you ok with continuing? We're kind of far into the game for a restart...

[PriestyMan]

Yeah its fine by me.

[Ossa]

Yomi'S troops are freaking unstoppable. I cant kill more than 5 of his troops if our armies are of the same size.

[tratorix]

Roster

BrodieSWR - Yomi
ghoul31 - Hinnom
LongBrodie - Tir na n'Og
Ossa - Ulm
PriestyMan - R'lyeh
tratorix - Agartha
Valerius - Vanheim

I believe I have discovered your problem sir.

[LongBrodie]

Well played, Vanheim, well played. Just out of curiosity, how many Seeking Arrows did you cast there?

[Valerius]

I went with five castings. Four could have been expected to do the job (and did) but the way my luck has gone this game (I had to double check my scales just to make sure I didn't have turmoil/misfortune ;)) I figured since I had already spent 16 gems and four turns of mage time I might as well add one more casting as insurance. It was all very expensive but that that was also a tough target and wouldn't have been cheap to take out through normal normal attacks either.

[Valerius]

Also, I changed the hosting interval to 48 hours (forgot to do so at turn 20). We've been moving at a good pace and likely won't usually need the full 48 hours but there is now some extra time if needed.

[BrodieSWR]

I, for one, appreciate the 48 hours because I have just recently moved to a different city here in Brazil, and it has been difficult because I don't have interent now, and have to rely on my father-in-law's internet down the street. Ugh....

[tratorix]

Any chance I can get a 24 hour extension this turn? Probably not going to be home in time to do it.

[Valerius]

I submitted the extension request but there's something strange going on with the server as games aren't hosting and it doesn't yet show any sign of the postponement having been processed. I will keep an eye on it.

[Valerius]

LongBrodie, that battle was a nail-biter. I enjoy fights like that where every unit counts. Comhghall the Ri was really annoying, though. Glad he's finally dead.

[LongBrodie]

There are plenty more where he came from. I'm starting to think this war is going to get both of us wiped out, though. :P

[Valerius]

Stupid game admin let me stale. :mad:

[Valerius]

That's not good: two stales last turn (actually the second in a row for TNN). I'll PM tratorix and LongBrodie.

[tratorix]

I'm fine to continue. Was just procrastinating on sending my turn in and managed to miss the deadline. :doh:

[LongBrodie]

My computer died and it'll take a while to get it back. Find a sub for me or something. :(

Good luck everyone, and Valerius, I hope you win. :P

[PriestyMan]

Ryleh is looking to buy astral pearls (of course). I have like everything else but slaves to trade for them

[Valerius]

My computer died and it'll take a while to get it back. Find a sub for me or something. :(

Good luck everyone, and Valerius, I hope you win. :P

Sorry to hear that, LongBrodie. I enjoyed our fight. And thanks for the vote of support. ;)

I'll postpone hosting and look for a sub.

Ryleh is looking to buy astral pearls (of course). I have like everything else but slaves to trade for them

Uh, no diplo? :p

[PriestyMan]

Ah ****. That was sneaky! i didnt even notice that. its not even in bold! no problem though

why is it no diplo anyways?

[Valerius]

Ah ****. That was sneaky! i didnt even notice that. its not even in bold! no problem though

Of course; all my favorite nations are sneaky. :p Well, except for MA Aby. Can't explain that other than to say warlocks are awesome.

why is it no diplo anyways?

I hadn't really played no diplo games until this year and I got on a kick for a while where every game I joined/started was no diplo. Definitely saves time not having to engage in diplo but I think I've now got it out of my system and will split future games between diplo/no diplo.

[Larz]

I just want to let everyone know that I have taken over for TNN. I've never played this nation, so should be fun!

[Valerius]

Welcome Larz and thanks again for subbing! TNN is very fun, my favorite nation actually (along with Eriu under the current CBM). Certainly a very different style of play from MA Pythium that you played in Celebrities.

[Valerius]

It looks like we may need another sub. Yomi has staled twice and BrodieSWR withdrew from another game.

I don't know much about Yomi's position. It looks like the odds are against him but it's not yet a last stand situation. It seems to me it's too soon to turn the nation AI unless we can't find a sub.

[Valerius]

Welcome to Korwin, who will be taking over Yomi.

Also, a reminder to our new players (and myself since I tend to forget this ;)) that this is a VP game (control four caps for three turns).

[Valerius]

Korwin, thanks for subbing and making the best of a not ideal situation.

Also, we are on a 72 hour hosting interval but if anyone needs extra time over the holidays let me know.

[Larz]

I need a 72 hr delay for this turn. Sorry for the late notice (and delay).

[Valerius]

I figured we'd need a delay this turn since with three hours to go there weren't any turns in. :p Hosting has been postponed 72 hours.

[Valerius]

I see Agartha's turn is in but the others are still missing (including my own of course). Also, Ossa seems to have disappeared so we may need to find an Ulm sub. It appeared a few turns ago like Agartha might be on the verge of winning but has since suffered some setbacks, so looking at it now this will likely go on for a while yet. What is the level of interest in this game?

[tratorix]

I'll keep playing if everyone else wants to, but my only goal now is to make this as miserable for everyone as possible, as there is no way I can recover from pretty much everyone dogpiling me.

[Larz]

I would like to keep playing. I've still got some troops ready to die for my cause!

[Valerius]

I would like to keep playing. I've still got some troops ready to die for my cause!

Ok, let's play on then. I'll post for a sub for Ulm. Ossa may return but if we can at least get a temp sub we can keep the game moving.

I'll keep playing if everyone else wants to, but my only goal now is to make this as miserable for everyone as possible, as there is no way I can recover from pretty much everyone dogpiling me.

I wasn't planning on getting involved as I haven't had good experiences fighting all the way across the map (even when playing A/S nations) but when you took that cap from Ulm and had R'lyeh's under siege I figured it might be game over if I didn't try to take a cap from you. It only worked thanks to the gate stone.

[tratorix]

I wasn't planning on getting involved as I haven't had good experiences fighting all the way across the map (even when playing A/S nations) but when you took that cap from Ulm and had R'lyeh's under siege I figured it might be game over if I didn't try to take a cap from you. It only worked thanks to the gate stone.

Yeah, this is the second game I've been in where a stealth attack has kneecapped me like that, I've got to start taking precautions against them.

[Ossa]

I'm back;) Sorry for the delay

[Valerius]

Welcome back! I've added some time to the clock in case that helps as you get caught up on your games.

[tratorix]

Seems like its time to either find a sub for ryleh or set him ai.

[Valerius]

Sorry for the delay, I haven't been paying much attention to Dominions.

As regards R'lyeh, I was kind of hoping we could just ignore the water provinces and turn it into a land province only game. :p I can certainly PM PriestyMan and ask him to set them AI but then the AI will just be annoying and launch random attacks as well as doing something stupid like leaving its capitol undefended for an easy VP. It's also not a very appealing position for a sub to take on.

Speaking of VPs, I realize I set the victory conditions for this game but I'm finding I really don't like VP games. What does everyone think about changing the game to normal victory conditions? I'm not saying this to benefit myself (the longer a game goes on and the more micro is involved, the less I'm motivated to play so I wouldn't mind getting killed off - but I won't just give up). If I'm going to get dogpiled that's fine but then finish the job instead of me getting down to 1 cap, some other nation gets 3, and then everyone shifts to attacking them. It's tedious. It would also solve the problem of R'lyeh since everyone could just grab some water provinces without any worry of an easy VP being at stake.

Of course changing the victory conditions would require all four remaining active players to agree but I thought I'd throw the idea out there.

[Ossa]

We have victory conditions? I never bothered... I'm happy with fighting it out till the end or everyone else concedes.

[Valerius]

Well, that was a lively turn!

Sadly, vanjarl defense doesn't fare so well against grendelkin offense when utterdark is up. And I don't know what I was thinking sending a vanadrott after a lychantropos' amulet-bearing shishi. You'd think I'd lost enough cap only mages to those damn things to remember not to do that.

[tratorix]

Just popping in to say that it's complete bullcrap that an attack called "lighting swarm" isn't actually lightning.

[Valerius]

Huh, that seems strange. I ran a test with some air elementals and they didn't do anything to a lightning immune unit. But once lightning immunity was removed the target unit was damaged and mistform popped. Note that in my test I made sure the target was large enough that it couldn't be trampled since air elementals will default to trampling rather than lightning swarm if the target is smaller than them.

[Valerius]

Agartha has staled the last two turns. I PM'd tratorix but haven't heard back. I postponed hosting by another day but if we don't hear from him we'll have to decide how to proceed. It's kind of easy to just ignore the water provinces and let R'lyeh stale but harder to do with Agartha, especially since he's got two major globals up and, despite his setbacks, is not out of contention.

[tratorix]

Staled once due to being busy and once due to being stupid, but I'm still around.

[Valerius]

Btw, I'm sorry to see utterdark go. That was working out well for me. Sure, I couldn't recruit any mages, but everyone else was in the same boat. Unlike everyone else, my supply of blood slaves continued unabated. A net gain, imo.

In any case, open the seal is good stuff. I like when CBM adds nation-specific spells and summons.

[Larz]

Btw, I'm sorry to see utterdark go. That was working out well for me. Sure, I couldn't recruit any mages, but everyone else was in the same boat. Unlike everyone else, my supply of blood slaves continued unabated. A net gain, imo.

In any case, open the seal is good stuff. I like when CBM adds nation-specific spells and summons.

Yeah, really cut back on the micro. Didn't have to worry about what to recruit, whether to build a temple or not, etc. Took me a little bit to figure out what was going on, had never seen Open the Seal. Pretty cool spell.

[tratorix]

Yeah, Open the Seal is pretty neat, the three SC's you get with it are pretty cool as well. It only spawns 30 umbrals though, which I was kind of disappointed with.

[Ossa]

Those SCs are evil. Plain evil.

[tratorix]

I <3 Soul Drain. :p

[Valerius]

I know Looming Hell isn't exactly the best global around but that's what I was ready to cast and at the very least it kept that slot out of everyone else's hands. ;)

Just so we're on the same page, my understanding is that we've decided to ignore R'lyeh and remove his VP from contention. We're also keeping VPs as the victory condition so in order to win you need to control 4 of 6 land caps.

Also, once I see all turns are in I'll start force hosting so we don't have to wait the full interval each turn.

[Valerius]

Btw, I really think BrodieSWR did a nice job with the map. I like the way it plays. And I was quite happy with my start location on the island. Obviously it was a nice defensible location but I also liked it from a thematic perspective - the norsemen setting sail to raid the mainland. :)

[Valerius]

I'm frustrated with myself that I staled last turn. :mad: While I lucked out and didn't suffer any major losses, at this stage of the game just wasting a turn not getting anything done is a setback. Guess the lesson there is to get my turns in earlier.

[Valerius]

Larz and Ossa, how would you two feel about tratorix and I sharing the win? This has really been quite a game with a lot of comebacks but I think probably at this point it would be very unlikely for TNN or Ulm to be able to get back in a winning position.

So I PM'd tratorix asking how he would feel about a shared win since I think it will take a long time for us to fight it out. He was open to the idea - as he put it, he has the caps but I've got the mobility. Of course this completely depends on you two being ok with this - if not, then we fight on.

[Ossa]

I'm ok with this. Never stood a chance myself with all those high class SCs

[Larz]

I'm OK with calling this game. I had fun with this game, but I don't see any way I can come back now (especially with no diplo).

[Valerius]

Ok, then we have agreement and the game is over. This game had a lot of back and forth and a lot of comebacks and I'd be very interested in hearing everyone's AAR and will write one up myself.

I also want to thank the three of you for sticking it out. :) Just a good fighting spirit all around and combined with the victory conditions led to a lot of swings in fortune. Larz, thanks again for stepping in as a sub.