Anomaly reports [Archive] - .com.unity Forums

Richard_H

October 8th, 2011, 12:54 PM

Unit Class 33 – Light Amphibian

Netherlands 322 and Italy 203 (Both Bv.206): Dutch version has Crew 2, Lift Capacity 114, Weight 12, Smoke 0; Italian has Crew 4, Lift Capacity 115, Weight 11, Smoke 2. Both are available at the same time, no carry issues with either.

N.Yemen 219 & UN 235 have Survivability 0, other DUKWs in same class have 4. UN 235 & Peru 235 have Lift Capacity 25, other DUKWs in same class have 125.

France 234/235/236: Crew of 6/7 in a vehicle barely 10 feet by 5 . . . . .nah,can’t see it somehow.

Russia 185, Hungary 235 and Bulgaria 251 have 24, Red 240 has 14, all other ZiS/Zil-485s have Speed 20. The same culprits have Swim Speed 5 (All others have 3), Survivability 0 (Others have 4), Lift Capacity 25 (Others have 125). NB Cambodia 561 in Class 34 has the same anomalies.

Unit Class 34 – Heavy Amphibian

Poland 417 & 703 – apart from having different AP ammo (5 & 25), these are statistically equal.

Indonesia 51 has different stats from all other PTS-Ms.

LVTP-7 - Thailand 60 is Size 7, all others Size 6. Same unit has FC 1, all others 0.

Spain 187 has Speed/Swim Speed 24/6, all others are 21/5.

Survivability is mixed. USA 183, S.Korea 182, Spain 187 & Thailand 60 have 5, The remainder (USMC 183, Italy 207 & 208, Green 239, Argentina 237, Brazil 238) have 4.

Spain 187, Italy 207 & 208 have Crew 3, all others are Crew 4.

Lift Capacity varies from 121 to 126. The only one with the standard loadout (125) is Italy 207.

Weights for Italy 207 & 208 are 23 & 24 (different models) respectively. Others are Weight 99-101 (basically non-carryable which, when a vehicle can go just about anywhere, seems logical).

LVTP-5 (USA 182, USMC 182, Taiwan 182, ARVN 108, Spain 186, Italy 206, Green 238, Chile 238, Nigeria 214, S.Yemen 222, N.Yemen 223) have varying Size, Crew, Speed and Swim Speed. The USA model appears to be the standard, and its stats are followed by the ARVN and Italy. Again, the Italian version has a carryable Weight (25) – what is it with these guys?  Should either Yemen have them at all? SIPRI (not infallible, but a decent guideline) has no record of a transfer, and I have the full database from 1950 to 2010.

Spain 186 has Carry 136 and Survivability 5, all others have 134 & 4.

Italy 206 & Spain 186 have HEAT TF 4, all others have 3 except for ARVN 108, which has no HEAT armour at all.

AAV7A1 - Argentina 238 has FC 0, all others 1. It also has sabot ammo (should be HEAT).

Brazil 239 & Greece 9 have Rate of Fire 9, all others have 8 (same weapon). This may be a consequence of having swapped Weapons 1 & 2. Same applies to USMC 690 & 691.

CAMANF - Green 236 & Nigeria 215 have Speed 24, Swim Speed 5, others have 18/4 except Uruguay 581, which has 12/5. I believe 24/5 are the correct values, so the ‘odd men out’ are Brazil, Chile, Ecuador and El Salvador (Unit 236 in all cases)..

Lift Capacity for El Salvador 236 and Uruguay 581 is 25, 125 in all others. Survivability is mixed :4 for Chile, Ecuador and El Salvador, 0 for the other 4.

DUKWs – Uruguay 580 has Speed/Swim Speed 12/5, all others have 17/3. Survivability 4 except for S.Korea 180, Canada 255, Spain 184 and Uruguay 580 (all 0). Lift Capacity 25 for France 435, UK 292, Australia 268, S.Korea 180, Taiwan 180, Canada 255, Indonesia 54 & Uruguay 580, 125 for the others (a slight majority).
Canada 255 has 2 Smoke, others 0.
UK 292, Australia 268 & Canada 255 have Rate of Fire 6, others 9.
Indonesia 54 is the only unarmed DUKW.

EFV. USMC 189 & Italy 209 only, but their stats differ considerably. USMC looks correct – cut & paste job?

K61 – Indonesia 50 has Crew 2, all others 3, and has different armour stats from all others (IIRC it’s actually unarmoured, but that may make it too vulnerable?). Croatia 541 & Indonesia 50 have Lift Capacity 250, others 150.

LVT 4 – Both afvdb and www.wwiivehicles.com have Crew 3, + 30 passengers. In game, crew range from 3 to 6, lift capacity from 24 to 130, and swim speeds from 4 to 6. Land speed is either 13 or 16. Authorities differ on land speed, giving either 32 kph (11) or 40 kph (13). Swim speed is generally quoted as 11-12 kph (4). To save time & space, rather than give individual stats I’ll just add the list of affected units:-
France 437; UK 295; USA 180; USMC 180; Australia 270; S.Korea 181; Taiwan 181; ARVN 107; Netherlands 325; Canada 256; Spain 185; Italy 205; Green 237; Argentina 236; Brazil 237; Thailand 59; Cambodia 560 & 562 (one of these is called ‘Nampo’, but it appears to be the same animal with revised armament); Chile 237; Nigeria 213; S.Yemen 221; N.Yemen 221; Ecuador 237.
Spain 185 has Rangefinder and FC of 1, all others 0.
Canada 256 & Italy 205 have 2 Smoke, all others 0.
UK 295, Australia 270 and Canada 256 have RoF 6, all others 9.
S.Korea 181, Taiwan 181, ARVN 107 and Cambodia 560 have Weapons 3 & 4 without ammunition.
Steel Armour – 2/1/1/2/1/1/0 appears to be standard, but only France 437, UK 295, Australia 270, Canada 256, S.Yemen 221, N.Yemen 221 and Ecuador 237 have this configuration.
HEAT Armour – UK 295, USA 180, Australia 270, S.Korea 181, Taiwan 181, ARVN 107, Canada 256, Thailand 59 and Cambodia 560 do not have it, the others do, but they are not all configured equally.
USMC has Icons 3344/5/6, all others have 242.

Richard H

Richard_H

October 9th, 2011, 07:07 AM

LVT(A) 4 – Land speed ranges from 13 to 15. I believe 13 is correct so this affects France 436 (which also has Swim Speed 5, all others 4), USA 179, USMC 179 and Indonesia 49. Again, USA 179 has Lift Capacity 0, all others 13.
FC ranges from 0 to 2. As LVT(A) 1 has FC 2, suggest same applies to this model. Affects France 436, USA 179 & Australia 271, and same comments apply to Rangefinder – see above.
USMC 179 and Indonesia 49 have Weapon 1 Ammo 100, others (France, USA, Australia) 60. I believe 100 is correct. Same countries have different armour stats from the other 3.

LVTH-6 – USA 176 has Rangefinder 2, USMC 176 has 3.

Type 60 – China 472 has Rangefinder 1, NVA 3 has 2.

Type 63 – NVA 4 has Speed/Swim Speed 23/5, others have 22/4.
N.Korea 4 has Survivability 4, all others 3.
China 473 has RoF 6, all others 7.
Albania 3 and Zimbabwe 205 have RF 5, others 2.
NVA 4 and Albania 3 have 47 main gun rounds, others (China, N.Korea, Zimbabwe) have 45.
NVA 4 has different armour stats from all others.

PT-76B – E.Germany 3 has Stabiliser 0, all others 2.

PT-76 – Finland 3 has Carry Capacity 9, all others 6.
China 471 has Rangefinder 1, all others 5.
China 471 & N.Korea 2 have HEAT Turret armour 6/2/2/1, all others have 6/3/3/2.

Richard H

Richard_H

October 9th, 2011, 07:07 AM

Class 169 – Ski SMG

Yugoslavia 62/63/64 and Croatia 55 are actually MMG teams. Suggest moving to Class 254 (Machinegun Team), which is not currently used by either oob.

Class 163 – Heavy Ski Troops

Switzerland 676-683 have Speed 7, all others have 6.
Sweden 92 & 93 have Load Cost 1, all others 0.
Yugoslavia 443 & 444 and Croatia 443 & 444 are SAM teams. I can see why it’s been done but these are the only oobs to make the distinction between Alpine & ‘ordinary’ infantry SAM teams. It’s not even as if they fit into an ‘Alpine Company’ formation, they are both stand-alones.

Class 162 – Ski Troops

Switzerland 666-672, speed as Class 163.

Richard H

DRG

October 9th, 2011, 04:36 PM

Unit Class 115 – Airmobile Section.

France 341 has an ISD of 1/82. However, formations do not appear until 1/86.

Richard H

The game only cares about formations. If the formation start date is correct that's all that really matters. If the unit is available earlier it's just an issue of tidyness

Don

DRG

October 9th, 2011, 04:53 PM

I don't have time ATM to go through every one of these but they have been noted down and if I feel the need to comment I will sometime in the future but there will ALWAYS be variations in things like carry capacity to accommodate different nations unit set ups. It's simpler to increase a carry capacity by a couple of points than it is to tear apart units and formations to fit some "standard" carry capacity of a truck or a LVT or whatever. In real life issues like squad size vers a vehicles carry capacity can be dealt with by breaking up the squad but that cannot be done in the game so sometimes it is expeditious to fudge the numbers a bit to make the game work smoothly

Richard_H

October 11th, 2011, 07:37 AM

Don

Quite understand the issue of fudging carry capacity. This is also why I haven't made any mention of differences in Radio%, Ammo loadouts or different weapons (unless they look really incongruous.

I can leave the issue of Lift Capacity alone if you'd prefer. After all, I used to think 13 tank riders was rather OTT until I saw the attached:D It has its title because I vowed that never again would I question tank riders!

One of the reasons I started this little exercise now was because I took note of your remark about looking at the oobs 'in a few weeks time'. So long as you're happy for me to keep churning stuff out in the interim . . . . (I must have worked through at least 30 classes out of the 250-odd so far, so I can't see a finish line before Christmas. Plus I'm going away for a couple of weeks, then packing up to move house, etc etc)

Richard H

Richard_H

October 11th, 2011, 07:38 AM

Class 35 – Amphibian Tank

LVT(A) 1 – USA 177 has Lift Capacity 0, others have 13. Same unit has Rangefinder 2, others have 3.

Richard H

Richard_H

October 11th, 2011, 07:48 AM

Rather than leave Lift Capacity entirely alone (it was a timely intervention as I've just been doing the 'Trucks and Transport' section), I've left it in either where the difference would mean an increase in capacity for the unit in question, or where I have checked against all relevant formations that they will not be affected (stand-alone prime movers etc).

Class 183 – Light Truck

Rhodesia 52 is armoured, all others unarmoured. It also has FC 1 (all others 0).
Switzerland 611, Albania 329 and Rhodesia 52 are armed, all others are not.
Saudi Arabia 252 is Size 4, all others 2 or 3.
Albania 329 has Crew 4, UK 287 & Rhodesia 52 have 3, all others 2.

Class 180 – Artillery Prime Mover

BTR-50PK - Egypt 581 has Lift Capacity 116, others have 118.

Komsolets - Poland 542, Russia 552, Czech 542, Hungary 542 – small point, but could the name be changed to ‘Komsomolets’ please? Czech 542 has Lift Capacity 116, others have 115.

Morris Quad - UK 570 has Survivability 2, others have 4.

MT-LB.
Poland 63, Iraq 541, E.Germany 591, Cuba 551, Angola 551, Sudan 546, N.Yemen 546 and Tanzania 551 have Crew 4, others have 2. I believe 2 is correct.

Russia 551, Iraq 541, Cuba 551, Angola 551, Sudan 546, N.Yemen 546, Ukraine 551 and Tanzania 551 have no Swim Speed, others have 2.

Russia 551 has Survivability 4, all others 3.

Of the armed versions, Hungary 63 and Bulgaria 586 have Rangefinder 1, others have 3.

“Prime Mover” – Finland 339 has Size 3, all others 4. Finland 339 and Ukraine 550 have Crew 2, all others 4.
Not getting into other differences, because they can always represent national variations. However Survivability 4 (Finland 339) strikes me as a bit high when others have 0 or 1. Finland is also the only one to have Load Cost 10 (others 12).
Ukraine 550 has Lift Capacity 115, which strikes me as low compared to all others (124-126).

“Truck” – All Size 3 except Poland 543 and N.Yemen 545, which are 4.
All Crew 2 except Algeria 590 (3) and N.Yemen 545 (4).
All Speed 18 except N.Yemen 545 (16).
All Survivability 0 except N.Yemen 545 (1).
All Lift Capacity 118 except N.Yemen 545 (130).
All Load Cost 12 except Algeria 590 (10).

Richard H

Richard_H

October 11th, 2011, 07:51 AM

Class 167 – Snow Vehicle

Mechanical Mule – Turkey 199 has Lift Capacity 110, others 114.

Bv.202 – Finland 40 & Sweden 63 have Size 2 and Speed 13, Norway 58 & 60 have 4 and 16.
UK 296 appears to be a hybrid unit, but with more characteristics of the Bv.206.
Sweden 63 & 65 have Weight 11, all others 10.

Bv.206 – Norway 59 & W.Germany 382 have Size 4, others 3.
Sweden 64 & W.Germany 382 have Speed 17, others 16.
UK 296 & Canada 220 have Swim Speed 1, others 2.
Lift Capacity varies from 112 to 117. I believe that, with 2 crew, the correct figure is 114. Those with less than 114 are:- UK 296, Canada 220.
UK 296 & Canada 220 have Weight 10, Finland 42 has 14 (maybe because it’s armed?), all others 12.

Class 138 – Heavy Transport

I know these are only meant to be for scenario designers, but:-
Egypt 577, Poland 548, Syria 498, Israel 607, Japan 487, France 621, UK 572, Jordan 582, Iran 517, Russia 990, USA 977, USMC 997, China 601, Australia 611, Gulf 599, Iraq 542, India 553, N.Korea 910, S.Korea 341, Taiwan 500, NVA 381, Pakistan 287, Belgium 360, Netherlands 360, Norway 393, Canada 540, Greece 400, Turkey 198, Spain 360, Italy 234, Denmark 360, Czech 544, Hungary 544, Romania 451, Libya 597, Yugoslavia 608, Green 419, Red 445, W.Germany 506, Argentina 648, S.Africa 573, Switzerland 275, Saudi Arabia 597, Finland 343, Sweden 360, Sudan 605, UN 291 and Somalia 298 all have Speed 0. Others have 9.
Turkey 198 is Move Class 3, all others 2. It also has Lift Capacity 250, others have 255.
Jordan 582 & N.Korea 910 have Weight 15, all others 28.

Richard H

Richard_H

October 11th, 2011, 07:55 AM

Class 109 – Wagon

Belgium 469, Indonesia 303 and Malaysia 511 have Crew 4, others 2. They also have Lift Capacity 112, all others 118. Their Weight is 20, all others 15.
NVA 605 has Speed 6, all others 7.
Belgium 259 has Survivability 2; Argentina 511, Chile 511, Portugal 472 and Paraguay 511 have 4, all others 0.

Class 56 – Ammo Carrier.

Most Ammo Ships have a Lift Capacity of 250. ARVN 233, Netherlands 232, Turkey 206, Denmark 232, Yugoslavia 590, Bosnia 590, Croatia 590 and S.Yemen 233 have 0 Lift Capacity.

Canada 259 has Lift Capacity 110, all other M548 ammo carriers have 0.
Israel 373 and Norway 347 have Survivability 4, all other M548 have 3.

Italy 239 has Size 2, Crew 4, Speed 7, Weight 10; all other ammo mules have 4/2/6/12.

Red 444 has Lift Capacity 250, all other K61 munitions have 0.

Syria 594 has Size 2, all other ammo bunkers have 1.

Lebanon 239 has Size 1, all other ammo dumps have 2.

Poland 232 has Speed 18, all other ammo trucks have 15. NB: Poland, USA and Viet Cong all have 2 ammo trucks (230 & 232, 230 & 312 and 230 & 233 respectively). The only differences between them are for Poland Speed, for the USA Crew and for Viet Cong Radio%. And ISDs for all.
Japan 332, UK 389 and Australia 291 have Survivability 1, all other ammo trucks have 0.

Russia 232 has Speed 15, all other BTR munitions have 16. It also has Survivability 3 (Cuba 321 & Angola 321 have 2, Libya has 4). The standard survivability figure for BTR-50s in Class 25 is 4.
E.Germany 255 and Libya 322 have Lift Capacity 112, other BTR munitions have 0.
Indonesia 231 has no top armour, others have 1.

Russia 231 and Sweden 226 have Crew 2, other MT-LB munitions have 3. For Russia, may be because it is the only unarmed MT-LB ammo carrier.
Yugoslavia 592, Bosnia 592 and Croatia 592 have Survivability 1, Cuba 322 and Angola 322 have Survivability 2, other MT-LB munitions have 3.
Syria 241, Sweden 226 and Lebanon 237 have Lift Capacity 111, other MT-LB munitions have 0. All these also have FC 0, other armed MT-LB munitions have 1. Syria and Lebanon also have Rangefinder 0 (see below).
Iraq 321 and Angola 322 have Rangefinder 3, other armed MT-LB munitions have 1.

Turkey 203 is the only armoured wheeled Ammo Carrier.
Indonesia 231 has Size 4, all other armoured ammo carriers have 3.
ARVN 231 and Switzerland 236 have Crew 4, other armoured ammo carriers have 2.

Iran 206 has Speed 20, USA 232 and ARVN 231 have Speed 23, all other M113 carriers have 18. ARVN 231 also has Survivability 3, other similar have 4.

Class 48 – Barge Carriers

Italy 248 has Speed 12, all others have 9.
Spain 248 and Italy 248 are Move Class 3, all others either ‘Default’ or 2.

Richard H

Richard_H

October 11th, 2011, 07:59 AM

Class 28 – Heavy Truck

I don’t know how standardised you want to be here, but IIRC I’ve heard Don mention something about not individualising trucks, so here goes:-

Austria 145 and Sweden 542 are the only 2 armoured Class 28s. They are not the only Class 28s in either oob.
Sweden 553 is the only armed heavy truck.
Bulgaria is the only oob without a heavy truck.
Sweden 555 has Size 3; USMC 60, Yugoslavia 526, Algeria 599, Bosnia 526, Chad 598, Saudi Arabia 256, Lebanon 598, UN 50 & 51 and Nicaragua 300 have Size 5, all others have Size 4. There’s a case for the UN vehicles because they are buses rather than trucks, but I’d be tempted to make them a different class (maybe 252, otherwise unused in UN) and a new formation.
Austria 64, S.Africa 266, Switzerland 601, 602 & 615, Angola 289 & 290, Cambodia 224 and UN 302 all have Crew 3; Yugoslavia 525 has Crew 4. All others have Crew 2.
Greece 701, Yugoslavia 526 and Bosnia 526 are Move Class 3, all others either ‘Default’ or 2.
Australia 257, Canada 184, Austria 64, Switzerland 614 & 616, Angola 289, Cambodia 224 and Malaysia 385 have Survivability 1; UN 50 & 51 have Survivability 2. All others have 0. Comments about the UN units as above.
Lift Capacities vary. 132 is the standard, but I certainly don’t have a problem with variations (That’s why I haven’t mentioned differences in speed). However, Croatia 526 & Switzerland 616 have Lift Capacity of 232 & 244 respectively. You may want to consider knocking them back to 132 & 144?
Weights also vary. Again, not a problem to me, because there’s nothing outstandingly OTT. However, Italy 230, Ethiopia 308 and Somalia 548 have Weight 9, and IIRC there’s a convention about all vehicles being minimum 10.

Class 27 – Medium Truck

Again, how much standardisation? I’ve left the units just called ‘Truck’ or ‘Medium Truck’ alone, but where there is more than 1 unit with a specific name I’ve gone for it. So for example:-

Uruguay 551 & Paraguay 571 are both a ‘Type 73’. The first has Size 3, the second 4.

GaZ-66 – Yugoslavia 523 is Size 4, others Size 3. It is also Weight 12, others 10.

Steyr – Uganda 40 has Speed 15, others 18. It also has Lift Capacity 117, others at least 118.
Greece 700 has Weight 10, others 12.

Bedford – Tanzania 40 has Crew 4, others 2. It also has Speed 15 (others 18) and Lift Capacity 115 (others 118).

Sweden 550 is a 30-cwt – maybe a bit small for this class?

Richard H

Richard_H

October 11th, 2011, 08:03 AM

And finally for trucks and transport:

Class 26 – Utility Vehicle

2½ Ton Truck – Afghanistan 309 is Size 3, the standard for a Deuce and a Half is 4.

Bedford – Sudan 310 and Kenya 311 have Speed 15, standard is 18. Both also have Lift Capacity 115, standard is 118.

Bren Carrier – Egypt 226, UK 281, Netherlands 259, Denmark 225, Malaysia 51 & Uruguay 128 have Speed 18, others have 17. I believe 17 is correct.
India 217 and Pakistan 67 have Load Cost 0, others 10.
UK 281 and Denmark 225 have Lift Capacity 104, others 106.

Bernardini AM-IV – Argentina 309 is Move Class 4, others 3. It’s a wheeled vehicle. Brazil 309 has Survivability 2, others 0. It also has Hull Armour 1/1/1, others have 2/2/2.

BT-50 – Argentina 307 has Size 2, others 3.

BTR-40 – Algeria 328 has Crew 3, others 2.
Iraq 329 and Peru 307 have Survivability 3, others 4.
Red 82 and UN 304 have Lift Capacity 106, Algeria 328 has 107, others have 108. 108 is correct.

Civilian Car – Sweden 565 has Speed 14, others 20.

EE-12 – Brazil 308 has Survivability 1, Angola 314 has 0.

GaZ-69 – E.Germany 224 has Crew 3, Viet Cong 182 has Crew 4, all others 2.
Red 79 & Poland 432 have Survivability 1, others 0.
Viet Cong 182 has Lift Capacity 104, others 106.

GaZ-3937 – Russia 241 has Survivability 4, Red 81 has 2, others 0.

HMMWV – Poland 921, China 55 & Tanzania 316 have Crew 3, all others 2.
USMC 71 is the only armoured HMMWV to have Survivability 0, others have 2.
Yugoslavia 522 has FC 1 and Rangefinder 1, others 0.

Iveco LMV – Norway 345 has Lift Capacity 104, others 109.

Jeep – Switzerland 715 has Crew 1, Viet Cong 181 has 4, all others have 2.
Belgium 251 has Speed 26, Argentina 306 has 25, Switzerland 715 has 20, all others 24.
Canada 201 has Survivability 1, others 0.
Viet Cong 181 has Lift Capacity 104, Somalia 312 has 108, all others 106.
USMC 66, Belgium 251 & Spain 189 have Weight 9, all others 10.

Land Rover – Cyprus 281 has Speed 28, all others 24.
Switzerland 46 has Crew 1, others 2.
Australia 254, Kenya 313 and Malaysia 52 have Survivability 1, all others 0.
Somalia 313 has Lift Capacity 108, others 106.

Light Truck – Size varies – up to oob 38 always 2, then mostly 3. Too much hassle to change. However:-
Nigeria 310, Somalia 311 & Uganda 310 have Size 4 – surely too much?
Somalia 311 has Crew 6, others 2.
Nigeria 310 & Somalia 311 have Speed 18, others 20.
Iraq 325, Green 307, Nigeria 310 & Portugal 592 have Lift Capacity 110, N.Korea 222 has 106, Somalia 311 has 108, all others have 112.
N.Korea 222 has Weight 5, Cuba 310, Algeria 326, Nigeria 310, Kenya 310, Somalia 311 & Uganda 310 have 12, all others 10.

Medium Truck – Libya 326, Albania 326 & S.Yemen 311 have Size 4, others 3.
Gulf 311 is Move Class 3, all others 2.

Mercedes-Benz – Norway 338, although m/g-armed, has RoF 0.
Norway 341 & Denmark 240 have Speed 24, other MB 240/290 have 29.

Puch Haflinger – Austria 67 has Crew 2, Switzerland 60 has 1.

Sufa M-240 (Israel 342) is the only Size 1 vehicle.

Type 95 – NVA 238 has Crew 2, Viet Cong 180 has 4.
Indonesia 308 has Lift Capacity 6, others 108. All have Weight 5.

UAZ-469 – E.Germany 712 & Mozambique 11 have Crew 1, others 2. E.Germany 712 also has Speed 26, others 24.
E.Germany 712, Czech 432, Hungary 432, Red 80, Cuba 311, Slovakia 217, Albania 327, Nigeria 312, Eritrea 312, Ukraine 239, Tanzania 312 & Uganda 312 have Survivability 1, others 0.

Unimog – Peru 310 has Lift Capacity 110, others 113.

Xingo BT-25 – Brazil 306 has Speed 26, others 25.

General – Hungary 431 & Green 618/619/620 have Survivability 1, similar others 0. (Not sure why Green has 3 all with the same stats, the only difference is the icon).
Switzerland 865 has Weight 2.

Richard H

Richard_H

October 11th, 2011, 08:36 AM

General plea while I think of it:-

Could you please get rid of the commas in the descriptions of M10 Achilles, they play havoc with csv dumps! Units affected are:- Egypt 321, Israel 478, UK 220, Iran 415, Belgium 390 & 391, Denmark 5, Libya 6 & 55 and Kenya 7.

Thanks.

Richard H

Richard_H

October 11th, 2011, 05:52 PM

The snipers - mercifully short!

Class 45 – Sniper

China 259, N.Korea 214, Czech 345 & 346 and Cambodia 216 are the only units to have 60 Weapon 1 rounds, all others have 50.

E.Germany 277 has 20 Weapon 2 rounds, all other solo snipers have 2.

Class 143 – Para Sniper

N.Korea 702 is the only unit to have 60 Weapon 1 rounds. 50 is standard, although a couple of heavy sniper teams have 40.

USMC 329 is the only unit to have a third weapon. May well have been a feature of the period.

Class 249 – Ranger Sniper

W.Germany 453 is the only unit that can swim. It appears that their Heavy Snipers in other classes (45, 143) can also swim.

Class 242 – Marine Sniper

Conversely, USMC 269 is the only unit that can not swim. It is also the only Heavy Sniper unit in the class.

Class 164 – Ski Sniper

Finland 136 & 137 are the only units that can swim (Finland has plenty of other ski snipers that cannot).

Class 147 – Commando Sniper

All have FC 10 except for S.Africa 504 & 509, and Indonesia 530 & 531. Indonesia has similar units with FC 10, S.Africa does not. May be a nation issue with S.Africa and a ‘give the customer choice’ thing with Indonesia. The same units are the only ones not to have Rangefinder 10.

The S.Africa units are also the only ones to have 8 Hand Grenades; all other units, whether Crew 1 or 2, have 2. Again, may be a nation thing.

Richard H

Richard_H

October 14th, 2011, 04:28 AM

Ships - Part 1

Class 239 – Hovercraft

China 680 has Survivability 255, all others have 6.
Italy 237 has Vision 20, all others have 0. Possible, but when even the USMC doesn’t have it?
USA 186 is unarmed. Its USMC equivalent (also 186) has 2 m/g, as do Japan 290 & S.Korea 187. They do not appear to have different formational uses. USA 186 also has Crew 4, others have 8.

Classes 43, 46, 198 & 199 – LCS, LCG, Torpedo Boat, Patrol Boat.

Not worth going there, too much national variation.

Class 197 – Rivercraft

Generally as 198 & 199, but there are a couple of named craft here, which I presume are built to a formula, to whit the Zodiac and the Rigid Raider. It seems there were 2 basic marks of Rigid Raider, one with a capacity of 8 and the other with capacity of 20.

Rigid Raider – Italy 250 has Size 1, all others 2.
UK 251 & Australia 344 are the only 2 with armour.
Other stats are pretty evenly split, so will leave alone.

Zodiac – all have Swim Speed 6 except Netherlands 274, which has 7.
Argentina 240 has Lift Capacity 110, others have either 13 or 113.

Class 42 – Assault Boat (Always Unit 246)

Netherlands is the only Size 2, others Size 1.
USMC, Ethiopia & Somalia have Radio% 90, others 0.
S.Africa has Load Cost 0, all others 1.

Richard H

Richard_H

October 14th, 2011, 04:29 AM

Ships - Part 2

Class 41 – Landing Barge

Poland 752 has FC 100 (AA Radar), all others 0. This is not for an AA Gun, but for a weapon called ‘60mm OTO HVMS’, which is available here in 1/62. IIRC the main user of this weapon is Chile, which doesn’t have it until 1/84. That a Warpac nation would have it in 1/62 doesn’t stack up.

Poland 700 and Iraq 250 are amphibious – should they be in an Amphibian class?

Of those units (all in slot 247) called ‘Barge’:- Sweden has Crew 4, all others have 5; ARVN is the only armed version.

LCM (8) Mk.1 – Belgium 235 has different stats from all the others.
Israel 369 has Size 12, Netherlands 241 has 8, Greece 250 has 7, all others 9. The same units have Crew 5, all others 7. The same units have Swim Speeds 7-8, all others have 10.
Israel 369 has Lift Capacity 248, Netherlands 241 has 250, Greece 250 has 234, Chile 253 has 240, others have 254.

LCM Mk.6 – France 434 & Iran 184 have Size 12; USMC 191, Turkey 252 & Spain 231 Size 6, all others 9.
Israel 368, France 434, USA 184, USMC 191, Turkey 252 and Spain 231 have Crew 4, others have 7.
USMC 191 has Swim Speed 6, all others have 8.
USA 184 has Lift Capacity 175, others have 180 or 240.
France 434 has steel armour 5/3/3/6/4/4/0, HEAT armour 6/4/4/7/5/5/0, all others have 4/4/4/4/4/4/0, 6/6/6/6/6/6/0.

LCVP – remarkably consistent, which leads me to believe that anomalies need pointing up.
USA 254 has Size 12, all others 8.
USA 254 has Crew 4, Netherlands 240 & W.Germany 355 have 5, all others 7.
USA 254 has Lift Capacity 136, Netherlands 240 has 254, W.Germany 355 has 250, all others 236.

LST – similar to LCVP.
Russia 204 has Size 14, Ethiopia 251 has 12, UN 240 has 11, all others 10.
Ethiopia 251 has Crew 8, all others 12. It also has Swim Speed 10, all others 8; Steel HF 6 (all others 4) and HEAT Top 4 (most others 3).
UN 240 has HEAT Top 4, Peru 255 has 5 see above).

T-4 – Syria 250 has Size 12, all others 10. It also has armour 2/2/2/2/2/2/0, no HEAT (others have 4/4/4/4/4/4/3, 6/6/6/6/6/6/5.
Poland 184 & Syria 250 have Crew 4, others 8. They also have RoF 6, all others 9 (same Weapon 1).
Libya 250 has Swim Speed 8, all others 6.
Romania 184 & Bulgaria 184 have Lift Capacity 250, all others 230.
Poland 184 has HEAT Top 3, others 5.

I’m not going for any of the other named classes because there is so much variation in them, and I don’t have my reference works to hand.

Richard H

Richard_H

October 14th, 2011, 04:31 AM

Scouts and Observers (mostly to do with grenade loadouts not matching the squad size)

Class 243 – Marine Forward Observer

USMC 221 have 12 hand grenades as weapon 2. After 1/60, they revert to 4 (2 each).

Class 241 – Marine Scouts

S.Korea 370/371/372 are the only ones who cannot swim. They are also the only units who have 80 weapon 1 rounds (others have 60, even with more crew).

S.Korea 370 & 371 have 5 Weapon 3 rounds (Crew is 4).

Poland 280/281/282/283 are some of the very few Scouts, particularly in specialist units such as Marines, who have Speed 6 – most have 7.

Class 234 – Guerilla Scout

Somalia 441 have 6 weapon 2 rounds, with 4 crew (others have 2 each).

Class 229 – Para Observer

W.Germany 378 & 379 are Size 1, even though Crew 2.

France 630/631/632/633 have 9 (Weapon 2) Hand Grenades, between 2 Crew.

Class 228 – COIN Scouts

Rhodesia 220 is the only unit with Speed 6, all others have 7.

Nicaragua 395 is the only unit that can swim. Other Nicaragua COIN Scouts cannot.

Class 168 – Ski Scouts

Norway 308/309/310/311 and Sweden 140/141/142/143 are the only units with Speed 6, others have 7.

Sweden 143 has 8 (Weapon 3) hand grenades, with 5 Crew (others have 10).

Class 101 – Paratroop Scouts

ARVN 502, Belgium 563 & 564 have Speed 6. All others (apart from 8-man units) have 7.

E.Germany 345 & 346 have 90 Weapon 1 rounds, Belgium 563 & 564 have 80, Romania 376 has 70 (Standard loadout for 3-4 man units is 60).

N.Korea 450 & 451 have 60 Weapon 2 rounds (standard loadout for a sniper rifle is 50).

Poland 390/391/392/393/394 have 4 Weapon 2 rounds (Hand Grenades for a 3-man team).

Belgium 564 has 18 Weapon 2 HE rounds (standard loadout is 14).

USA 100 has 7/1 Weapon 2 rounds (standard loadout is 14/2 for a 4-man unit).

Sweden 157 has 80 Weapon 3 rounds (standard loadout is 50).

Poland 393 & 394, and Romania 376 have 4 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds in 3-man teams.

E.Germany 345 has 6 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds in a 4-man team.

Richard H

Richard_H

October 14th, 2011, 04:32 AM

Scouts and Observers - 2

Class 88 – Commando Scouts

Poland 289-294 have 4 crew, and 9 Weapon 2 (Hand Grenade) rounds.

NVA 270 has 9 crew, and 11 Weapon 2 (Hand Grenade) rounds.

ARVN 535 has 6 Weapon 2 (Hand Grenade) and 6 Weapon 3 rounds, with 4 crew.

Chile 395-398 and El Salvador 395 & 396 have 30 Weapon 2 rounds, standard loadout for Sniper Rifle is 50.

PLO 424 has 3 crew, and 5 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds.

Class 82 – Patrol

N.Korea 609-615 have Crew 3, but Size 1.

USMC 400 is the only unit that can swim.

Class 81 – Mechanised Scouts

Czech 202 & 203 have 8 Weapon 2 (Hand Grenade) rounds, with crew 6.

Norway 207 has 10 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds, with crew 8.

Class 80 – Partisan Scouts

Poland 893 has 6 Weapon 2 (Hand Grenade) rounds, and crew 4.

Richard H

Richard_H

October 20th, 2011, 10:46 AM

Scouts and Observers - 3

Class 63 – Artillery Observer

Ecuador 400 has Size 9, Uruguay 400-404 have Size 1 (crews either 2 or 4).

Somalia has no observer (and no observer formation) after 12/90. They have artillery until 12/93.

Paraguay has no observers (?).

UK 327 & 333 have Speed 4 (thought it might be the GSR, but Unit 340 has Speed 6).

Denmark 383, 384 & 387 have Speed 5, other Danish (and most others, even with similar EW/Vision etc) have 6.

Norway 210-213 & 228, Denmark 385 & 386 have 5 Weapon 2 (Hand Grenade) rounds, with 2 crew.

France 594-597 have 9 Weapon 2 (Hand Grenade) rounds, with 2 crew.

Class 58 – Scouts

Jordan 550-553 have Speed 6, all others have 7.

Argentina 388 have 4 Weapon 2 (Hand Grenade) rounds, with 3 crew.

Kenya 450, 451, 453-455, 457-459 have 6 Weapon 2 (Hand Grenade) round, with 4 crew.

Czech 339 & 340, and Ethiopia 400 have 8 Weapon 2 (Hand Grenade) rounds, and 3 crew.

Pakistan 259-266 have 10 Weapon 2 (Hand Grenade) rounds, and 4 crew.

Romania 289 has 4 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds, and 3 crew.

Australia 377 has 9 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds, and 4 crew.

Richard H

Richard_H

October 20th, 2011, 10:48 AM

SAMs

Class 16 – Area SAM

Amoun – Egypt 297 has Size 6, Crew 3, Gulf 269 has 4/4. They should maybe be similar to the Aspide (3 & 4).

Aster 30 – France 448 has different stats from the others, and should probably be renamed ‘Aster 15’.

HQ-2 – Thailand 285 has Weight 10, others have 15.

I-Hawk – Jordan 331 has Crew 6, Sweden 379-381 have 5, others have 3.

Nike Hercules – Norway 39 has Crew 10, others have 3. It also has RoF 3 (others have 1) and 3 missiles (others have 2).

Patriot – Saudi 268 has Crew 3, others have 2.
W.Germany 185 has 3 missiles, others have 4.

Rapier – Switzerland 231, 908 & 909 have Size 3, others have 2. They also have Crew 10, others have 5.
Iran 501, Australia 328 & 329 have Weight 10, others have 5.

Roland – Argentina 571 & 572 have Survivability 3, others have 0. They also have 4 missiles (others have 10).

SA-2 – Egypt 294 has Size 6, others have 2. AFAIK the Tayir es-Sabah is just a reverse-engineered version.
Egypt 294 has Weight 15, N.Korea 580 has 100, all others have 10.
Egypt 294 & Bulgaria 44 have RoF 2, others have 1.
Egypt 294 & Somalia 570 have 2 missiles, others have 1.

SA-3 Goa (Neva) – N.Korea 581 has Weight 100, others have 15.
Czech 48 has 2 missiles, others have 4.

SA-5 Gammon – Poland 76 has Size 2, others have 5.

SA-10 (S-300) – Iran 503, China 586, Czech 95, Yugoslavia 449, Red 272, Cyprus 111, Slovakia 121 & Ukraine 296 have Crew 10, all others 8. The same units have Survivability 0, others have 6.
Czech 95 has Speed 21, all others 20.

Skyguard Aspide – Spain 165 is armoured, others are not.

Tigercat – India 235 has Weight 10, others have 5.

Class 29 – Infantry SAM

Belgium 45 & 460 – do these belong here, or rather in one of the MG classes (176 & 193 are not used by Belgium).

Denmark 79 & 80, Cyprus 116, Finland 204-208 and Bulgaria 83-86 all have Crew 2, and Size 1. All other 2-crew units have Size 0.

PLO 145 & 146, Chile 466 & 467, Finland 207 and Bulgaria 83 & 84 have Load Cost 1. All other 2-crew units have Load Cost 0.

Ukraine 409-413 have Crew 1. May be a national thing, but all similar units have minimum Crew 2.

Blowpipe – UK 438, Canada 209 & 211 have Crew 3, all others have 2. However, they also carry 5 missiles as opposed to the others’ 4, so may be a national thing. Javelin teams (UK 439, Canada 210) are similar. If they are changed, Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds would also require changing.
Portugal 360 has Speed 4, all others have 6.
Canada 209 & 211 have RoF 4, all others have 3.

Gimlet – Bulgaria 86 has 3 Weapon 1 rounds, all others have 4.

HN-5 – Iran 212 has Crew 3, others have 2.

Igla – Jordan 390 & S.Korea 567 have RoF 3, Gulf 182 & 183 have 4, others have 6.

Mistral – S.Korea 568, Spain 456, Green 111 & Brazil 111 have Speed 6, others have 4.
Italy 464 has RoF 4, others have 3.
France 550 & Belgium 46 carry 3 missiles, others have 4.

RBS-70 – Finland 207 has Crew 2, all others have 4.
Iran 214 & Green 110 have 6 Weapon 1 rounds, all others have 4.

Redeye – Turkey 237 & Iran 210 have Crew 3, others have 2.
USMC 79 has RoF 4, others 3.

SA-7 Grail (Strela 2) – Iran 211, Iraq 385, Cuba 110, Cambodia 295, Chad 155 & Uruguay 80 have Crew 3, others have 2.
Gulf 180 has RoF 4, others have 6.
Iraq 385, Uruguay 80 and Bulgaria 83 & 84 carry 3 missiles, others have 4.

SA-14 Gremlin (Strela 3) – Iraq 386, Yugoslavia 435, Bosnia 434 & Croatia 435 have Crew 3, others have 2.
Gulf 181 has RoF 4, Jordan 389 has 3, others have 6.
Iraq 386 & Bulgaria 85 have 3 missiles, others have 4.

Starstreak – As with Blowpipe, UK 440 & 441 have Crew 3, S.Africa 128 & Malaysia 109 have 2. However, this time there is no difference in the missile load.

Stinger – Turkey 238 & 239, and Greece 274 have RoF 3, Angola 118 has 6, others have 4.

Class 30 – SP SAM

AMX-30 Roland – Jordan 337 has Speed 21, all others 23.
Spain 150 & 151 have Survivability 3, all others 4.
Iraq 379 has Load Cost 22, Spain 150 & 151 have 23, all others 32.
France 466 has Vision 0, even though it’s the most modern version.

Anza Car – Pakistan 222 has Size 2, Malaysia 113 has Size 4.

Avenger HMMWV – Taiwan 52 has Crew 4, others have 2 or 3.

Cactus – S.Africa 583 has Weight 10, Chile 455 & Green 555 have 0.

Crotale – France 58 & Chad 570 have Survivability 2, others have 4.
Egypt 232, France 58, Gulf 260, Libya 557, Chad 570 and Saudi Arabia 261 & 262 have Weight 0.

Crotale NG – France 559 has Swim Speed 2, Chad 571 has 4.

HN-5 Truck – China 515 has Swim Speed 0, Pakistan 220 has 4. 0 looks more appropriate. China has Survivability 3, Pakistan 0. China has EW 0, Pakistan 1.

M48 Chaparral – Egypt 233, Afghanistan 506 & Ecuador 440 have Speed 18, all others have 20.
Survivability is mixed. A slight majority have 4, but Egypt 233 and Afghanistan 506 have 5, USA 207 & Portugal 50 have 3.
Israel 100 & 101 have Steel TS armour 1, others have 2.
Egypt 233 has Steel Top armour 0, others have 1.

SA-4 Ganef (Krug) – E.Germany 49 has no armour, others have 1/1/1/1/1/1/1.
Russia 292 & 924 have Speed 16, others 6. They also have Weight 45 & 99 respectively, all others 28.

SA-6 Gainful (Kub) – Cuba 238 has Size 2, all others 4.
Egypt 280, Bulgaria 47 & Tanzania 211 have Speed 6, all others 16.
Czech 44 has Crew 3, others 10.
Cuba 238 has Load Cost 0, Poland 50 & 563 and Czech 44 have 20, Russia 283 & 613 have 99, all others 15.
Hungary 50 has RoF 9, all others 3.

SA-8 Gecko (Osa) – Greece 77, Cuba 237, Bosnia 454, Croatia 455 and Chad 569 have Speed/Swim Speed 15/1, all others have 27/3.
Jordan 335 has Survivability 3, Angola 212 has 4, all others have 5.

Strela 1 – E.Germany 46, Romania 45, Libya 555, Yugoslavia 454 & S.Africa 585 have Speed 36, Czech 45 has 33, others have 32. S.Africa 585 also has Swim Speed 4, Czech 45 has 3, others 2.

SA-11 Gadfly (Buk) – Yugoslavia 455 has Crew 4, all others 10.
Yugoslavia 455, Red 527 & Ukraine 289 have Speed 6, Finland 561 has 16, Russia 289 & 612 have 18. Some authorities give 50 kph, others 65.
The Russian units have Survivability 3, the others 0.
Load Cost is 99 for the Russians, 22 for Yugoslavia, 15 for the rest.

Strela 10 – Russia 428, E.Germany 45, Czech 46, Libya 556 & Yugoslavia 456 have Speed 22, others 20. The last 4 also have Survivability 3, others 4.

Tor M1 – Iran 506 has Armour 2/2/1/3/1/1/1, others have 3/2/1/3/2/1/1.
Yugoslavia 457 has Speed 20, others 22. It also has Survivability 3 (others 4), Load Cost 24 (others 20), and Armour 2/1/1/2/1/1/1 (see above).

Richard H

Pibwl

October 20th, 2011, 01:07 PM

Class 180 – Artillery Prime Mover

BTR-50PK - Egypt 581 has Lift Capacity 116, others have 118.

In fact, all carried 20 soldiers - the same for BTR-50 as APC.

Komsolets - Poland 542, Russia 552, Czech 542, Hungary 542 – small point, but could the name be changed to ‘Komsomolets’ please? Czech 542 has Lift Capacity 116, others have 115.

This unit needs reworking. Komsomolets was a small pre-WW2 armoured tractor with capacity of 106 (max 107, including a commander) - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Komsomolets_armored_tractor . Few survived the war and were very unlikely exported. An exception was Finnish army, which carefully maintained their captured Komsomolets' until 1961 (BTW, Finland hasn't one in the game and it's worth to add one; but size should be 3).

In all other countries including Russia they should be replaced with something else, for example Ya-12 tractor (in Poland, Hungary, Czechoslovakia spelled Ja-12) - http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/17698, especially, that data don't fit to Komsomolets. We even have a picture of Ya-12 - 29395. Data could be similar, but speed was up to 38 km/h (12-13)
Hungary and Czechoslovakia used also several types of ex-German SdKfz tractors.

MT-LB.
Poland 63, Iraq 541, E.Germany 591, Cuba 551, Angola 551, Sudan 546, N.Yemen 546 and Tanzania 551 have Crew 4, others have 2. I believe 2 is correct.

Russia 551, Iraq 541, Cuba 551, Angola 551, Sudan 546, N.Yemen 546, Ukraine 551 and Tanzania 551 have no Swim Speed, others have 2.

Right, it should have crew of 2 and be able to swim 6 km/h. On the other hand, it carried only 11 soldiers (in Russian OOB it has 112, I don't know how with others).

Michal

Pibwl

October 20th, 2011, 01:40 PM

Unit Class 33 – Light Amphibian

Russia 185, Hungary 235 and Bulgaria 251 have 24, Red 240 has 14, all other ZiS/Zil-485s have Speed 20. The same culprits have Swim Speed 5 (All others have 3), Survivability 0 (Others have 4), Lift Capacity 25 (Others have 125). NB Cambodia 561 in Class 34 has the same anomalies.

This vehicle had an Army designation BAV, and it should be added to the name. Better name in my opinion is just ZiS-485 BAV (or final designation ZiL-485 BAV), without artificial "ZiS/Zil". Anyway, correct picture is 29202 or probably 53502 (current is DUKW). Lift Capacity should be 125, since it had a rear ramp (unlike DUKW). Real speed was 65 km/h (22) an 10 km/h on water (3-4).

K61 – Indonesia 50 has Crew 2, all others 3, and has different armour stats from all others (IIRC it’s actually unarmoured, but that may make it too vulnerable?). Croatia 541 & Indonesia 50 have Lift Capacity 250, others 150.

Original name is written in Russian sources "K-61". It wasn't armoured at all (especially Indonesian one would sink with such armour, and sure wouldn't be able to carry anything). Speed was only 36 km/h (12, now: 18), and on water - 10 km/h. It could carry in fact 40 soldiers or a gun or a truck (capacity up to 5 ton on water, less on land). Crew should be 2 (I've even climbed upon one in a museum this summer and took a photo of two crew seats...)

By the way, speed of PTS-M was only 42 km/h and 10 km/h on water - in the game it is faster. Capacity 10 ton on water, on land - half.

Regards,
Michal

DRG

October 20th, 2011, 09:27 PM

Class 180 – Artillery Prime Mover

BTR-50PK - Egypt 581 has Lift Capacity 116, others have 118.

In fact, all carried 20 soldiers - the same for BTR-50 as APC.Michal

I have noted this down but given the volume of reports it will be well after Christmas before I get to this but for now please note the UNIT CLASS of the unit involved and consider what that UNIT CLASS main purpose is and that applying carry capacity to units that can be used as personal carriers AND gun towing vehicles requires that the carry capacity's be occasionally different. That is a game reality and when it conflicts with actual reality game reality takes precident.

Also note the carry capacity for this vehicle in the Russian OOB and that will likely be what the carry capacity of any other unit of this type is changed to. Also note that for Egypt the Russian carry capacity is what the APC version is already set to ( and what I find when I check sources ) and changing it to the same for the Artillery Prime Mover class may render it useless in that role........ right now IDK if that is the case or not but I will when I get to it but what I do know at this time I have no intention of tearing apart the carry capacity's and carry costs for artillery to make it work with APC's when for 99.9% of players the existing, albeit somewhat flawed system, works just fine and it is unimportant that there may exist slightly different capacitys from one unitclass or one OOB to another

Don

Pibwl

October 21st, 2011, 02:05 PM

If I understand your concerns correctly, there's no problem in this case, because all BTR-50s should have increased capacity, to 120, not lowered (source: Russian books Bronekollektsya 4/2000 on the Soviet armour and Bronekollektsya special issue 1(5)/2004 on PT-76 family).

Sorry to bother you.

Regards,
Michal

DRG

October 21st, 2011, 05:40 PM

I went though all of this three years ago with the Russians from SP Russia who produced an almost endless list of corrections for the Russian OOB . The APC BTR-50's are already 120 BUT....BRT-50PK's that have overhead armor cover and are 114. It's on the list to check the carry capacity of other nations BTR-50's this release and any that deviate from the Russian OOB norm will be corrected.

Don

Pibwl

October 22nd, 2011, 03:45 AM

The quoted sources explicitly say, that BTR-50PK carried 20 soldiers as well -that's why I wrote about "BTR-50" in general.

Regards
Michal

Mobhack

October 22nd, 2011, 06:55 AM

The quoted sources explicitly say, that BTR-50PK carried 20 soldiers as well -that's why I wrote about "BTR-50" in general.

Regards
Michal

And as Don pointed out, we already had a conversation with Russian gamers who were insistent that the closed top versions (to include the BTR-60s etc) had a lower troop capacity. AFAIR, the roof and arrangements for hatches reduced the capacity of the open top version (which had simple charabanc type cross-benches)

And as for sources - despite most web sites saying "20", I'll stick with David Isby's "Weapons and tactics of the Soviet Army" where it is stated that passengers are 12 (18-20 in open-topped versions).

That tends to agree near enough to the Russian guys who we dealt with 5 or more years back. 14 is near enough to 12 for game purposes.

Cheers
Andy

Pibwl

October 22nd, 2011, 08:08 AM

Well, I don't know myself, I'm only basing at what Mikhail Baryatynski wrote (quite a known expert on Soviet armour). It's very probable, that capacity was 20, while the gamers may refer to actual number of soldiers carried, which depended on organization (it was sure more comfortable for less soldiers). For example, in the Czechoslovak Army, a modified OT-62 carried crew of 2 and 14 soldiers (two sections) plus platoon's commander (sketches at http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/53321 )

You've made me to search an original Soviet military manual of BTR-50, which I've just downloaded, and which says on p.4: "each APC of both variants enables carrying or ferrying [ie. on water] of 20 troops with full combat equipment or 2000 kg of different loads". In a troop compartment there were two 4-seat benches along sides, upon tracks and three longitudinal removable benches along the compartment. It is BTW interesting, that BTR-50P could carry a 57-85 gun or 107 mm RG or 3 mortars or GAZ-69 jeep atop.

Hope this info helps.

PS. BTR-60 indeed had capacity reduced from 14 (P) to 12 (PA) and only 8 in PB - it might need changes as well (possibly 9, if we include commander sitting next to driver).

Regards
Michal

Richard_H

October 22nd, 2011, 11:43 AM

Not going to get involved with this one, if only because my reference books are currently a couple of thousand miles away, and I'd have to rely on the Net. However, I must agree with Don that the original unit that started this discussion off has a primary function as a Prime Mover - the fact that it can carry anything else is a bonus.

In the meantime, I'll just keep them coming . . .

Class 31 – Off-Map Rockets

Russia 275 has Speed 25 – I suspect it’s a typo. Similarly, Switzerland 957 has Swim Speed 2.

34 units have armour. IIRC this is not required for off-map units; what I don’t know is whether or not it may affect counter-battery fire. They are:-
Egypt 563; Syria 569, 570, 573; Israel 252; China 554, 565, 742 & 743; Gulf 472 & 474; Iraq 560-562; India 531-533; S.Korea 549 & 550; Pakistan 278 & 279; Czech 162; Argentina 585; Brazil 181 & 182; Algeria 170, 172 & 173; Saudi 470; Malaysia 462 & 463; N.Yemen 465; Ecuador 187 & 188.

Similarly, the following units have a Survivability rating:-
Egypt 562 & 563; Poland 162, 165, 298, 299; Syria 567, 569, 570, 573; Israel 252 & 257; PLO 296 & 297; Russia 275; China 554, 742 & 743; Gulf 470, 472, 474; Iraq 560-562; India 531-533; N.Korea 519; Pakistan 278 & 279; Turkey 919; Romania 166-168; Argentina 586 & 587; Brazil 181 & 182; Algeria 170, 172, 173; Slovakia 144; Switzerland 957; Cambodia 518 & 519; Saudi 470; Lebanon 587; Malaysia 462 & 463; N.Yemen 465; Eritrea 580; Ukraine 263 & 264; Ecuador 187 & 188; Nicaragua 185 & 186; Somalia 580.
If this is purely cosmetic, it’s probably too much of a PITA, because I’m sure you have more important concerns.

Many of the above (and others) also have a Weight rating, but unless this affects the game, I’m not going to bother.

Crew numbers may not affect off-map weapons (can’t remember) and if this is the case, non-bold parts of this section can be ignored.

Arash Platoon – Iran 492 has Crew 24, others 18.

BM-14 Platoon – Cambodia 518 has this title, even though its weapons are 240mm rockets, not 140mm. AFAIK Cambodia never had the BM-24 (240mm), so it’s probably the weapon that should be changed/added.

BM-21 Platoon – Russia 260 & 266 have Crew 20, Bulgaria 165 has 24, Poland 165 & Hungary 165 have 12, India 530 has 6, others have 18.
Bosnia 333 has weapons loadout of 40 x 3 and RoF 20, all others have 80 x 3 and 40.

BM-24 Platoon – Iran 490 & Russia 262 have Crew 24, Poland 168 has 16, others have 18.

BM-27 Platoon – Crew standard 18, Russia 261 & N.Yemen 464 have 24, Ecuador 186 has 15.

BM-30 Platoon – Russia 259 has Crew 32, Algeria 172 has 24, Ukraine 264 has 18, Ecuador 188 has 12.
CM versions (Russia 263, Algeria 173, Ukraine 263) have similar numbers, although 1 weapon less.

LAR – Israel 250 & 251 and Argentina 585 have weapon loadouts of 52 x 3, and RoF 36. Suspect loadout should be 72 x 3.
Argentina 585 has Crew 27, others have 6.

LAROM-122 – Romania 168 retains the RoF = 13 of other LAROMs, but has 80 rounds per weapon.

M270 Section – Spain 93 has Crew 12, Turkey 142 has 16, UK 159 & Greece 101 have 18, Finland 557 has 24; all others have 9.

RM-70 Platoon – Angola 585 & Uruguay 118 have Crew 6, Finland 556 has 24, others have 18.

Sakr-30 Section – Egypt 566 has Crew 18, others have 6.

Richard H

Richard_H

October 22nd, 2011, 11:46 AM

Class 137 – SP Rocket Launchers

Taiwan 510 has Lift Capacity 130, Iraq 553 has 108. No other unit has a Lift Capacity.

Taiwan 510 has Load Cost 100. All others can be loaded onto transport.

BM-13 – Yugoslavia 322 has Crew 24, others have 6. It is also Move Class 2, others are either 0 or 3.
Bulgaria 160 has Size 6, others have 4,
PLO 280, Chad 175, Sudan 460 & N.Yemen 460 have Speed 15, others have 13.
Russia 256 has Survivability 2, others have 0.
Yugoslavia 322 has Load Cost 14, Red 91 has 20, others have 12.
Libya 580 has 127mm rockets, all others have 132mm. The oob has an unused Weapon 204, which would fit.

BM-14 – Russia 254 has Size 4, others have 5. It also has Survivability 2, others have 0.
Iraq 551 has Crew 6, others have 7.
Russia 254 has Speed 20, E.Germany 166 has 0, others have 15.
Weights:- Russia 254 is 10, Iraq 551 & E.Germany 166 12, Hungary 167 is 14, and Poland 167 is 15.

BM-21 – Mozambique 225, Tanzania 585 & Uganda 582 have Size 6, Finland 550 has 4, others have 5.
Egypt 564, Russia 255 & 257 and Bulgaria 161 have Crew 5, Red 92 & Chechnya 97 have 4, Poland 160 & Hungary 169 have 12, others have 6.
Green 180, Chad 176, Ethiopia 582, Ecuador 180, El Salvador 180, Nicaragua 180, Peru 180 & Tanzania 585 have Speed 15, Sudan 461 & N.Yemen 461 have 8, others have 25.
Ukraine 255 has Survivability 3, Egypt 564 & Russia 255 & 257 have 2, Syria 557, Israel 253, PLO 282, Mujahadeen 496, Chad 176, Sudan 461, N.Yemen 461, Eritrea 585, El Salvador 180, Somalia 585 & Tanzania 585 have 1, others (still the majority) have 0.
Chechnya 97 & Ukraine 255 are the only armoured units of the type.
Poland 160, Russia 255 & 257, E.Germany 169, Hungary 169, Peru 180 & Bulgaria 161 have Weight 15, Red 92 & Chechnya 97 have 24, others have 19.

BM-24 – Iran 483 & Algeria 175 have similar stats, as do Egypt 576 & N.Korea 508. But the 2 sets are different.

LAR-160 – Green 181 has Size 4, others have 6.
Israel 255 & Green 181 have weapon loadouts of 13 x 2, and RoF 18.

M-51 130mm – Poland 163 has Speed 21, others have 15.
Poland 163 & Austria 165 have Survivability 2, others have 0.

RM-70 – Indonesia 187 has Speed 25, Greece 105 & Zimbabwe 226 have 18, others have 15.
Finland 551 has Crew 8 & Size 6, others have 6 & 5. May be a different chassis though.
Poland 295 & 296 have Weight 18, Finland 551 has 25, others have 20.
Greece 105 has no top armour, others have 1.

Libya 581 has weapon loadout of 6 x 2, RoF 12.

S.Africa 320 & 321 have Crew 18 – seems a bit excessive.

Switzerland 956 has no Weapon 3 ammo.

Richard H

Richard_H

October 22nd, 2011, 11:47 AM

Class 151 – Rocket Launcher

Egypt 561 & 574 have all the characteristics of vehicles (Name, Move Class, Speed, Size, Weight). I suspect they should be Class 137, with a .lbm change.

BM-12 – Russia 523 & Ukraine 254 have different stats from Mujahadeen 491 & Afghan 491. They also have 122mm rockets. According to www.armyrecognition.com, www.strategypage.com etc, this is a 107mm weapon.

BM-14-16 – Red 486 has Speed 1, others have 0.

Grad-P 122mm – Egypt 560 is called a ‘Platoon’, but has the same weapons loadout as Egypt 571. Should it maybe have loadout increased, and be transferred to Class 31?
PLO 279, Mujahadeen 489 & NVA 372 have Crew 5, others have 6.
The same 3 units have Speed 3, Chad 180, Sudan 454, Lebanon 575 & N.Yemen 454 have 2, others have 6.
Red 485 has 2 rockets, but Weight 1. Other 2-rocket units have Weight 0.
The Chad, Sudan and Lebanon units have 6 rockets, but Weight 0. Other 6-rocket units have Weight 1.

Haseb – Iran 480 has weapon loadout of 6 x 2 and RoF 6, PLO 278 & Lebanon 578 have double these. Local modification?

RPU-14 – Russia 522 has Size 1, others have 0.
Russia 522 has Crew 5, Indonesia 185 has 3, others have 6.
The same 2 units have Speed 1, others have 0.
Weights are:- Poland 166 has 5, Russia 522 has 1, Hungary 166 has 0, Indonesia 185 has 19.

Type 63 – Libya 575, S.Africa 317, Albania 500 & Zimbabwe 208 have Size 2, others have 1. They also have Survivability 3, others have 0.
The same 4 units have Crew 4, Syria 552 & NVA 370 have 5, others have 6.
Syria 552, NVA 370 & Sudan 456 have Speed 0, others have 1.
Syria 552 & NVA 370 have Weight 3, others have 2.

S.Africa 317 bothers me. If the S.African regulars had wanted a towed MRL, wouldn’t they have stuck with the Valkiri-5? Buying Chinese just doesn’t feel right. The alternative is that these came in from Zimbabwe for the ‘liberation’ struggle, in which case I wonder whether they’d be better off in Class 236? In which case, of course, we’d need guerilla infantry as well . . . .

Richard H

Richard_H

October 22nd, 2011, 11:48 AM

Class 210 – Off-Map Minelets. As with Class 31, much of this is probably cosmetic.

Russia 264 is the only armoured unit.

Syria 571 has Survivability 2, Iraq 565 has 3, all others have 0.

Syria 571, Russia 264, China 568, Taiwan 530, Netherlands 142, Spain 97, Italy 149 & 151 have a Load Cost.

Japan 240 & Finland 554 have RoF 6, all others have 1. Weapon loadouts are similar throughout the class.

BM-27 – Ukraine 265 has Crew 12, others have 18.

MLRS – Favourite Crew number is 9, but France 563 & UK 160 have 40, Finland 554 & Sweden 473 have 24.

Class 236 – Guerilla Rocket Launcher

Iraq 985 is called ‘105mm MRL’, although it has 107mm rockets.

Syria 551 has Crew 5 & Speed 3, other Grad-Ps have 6 & 6.
Syria 551 & Chechnya 125 have Load Cost 0, others have 1.

Richard_H

October 22nd, 2011, 11:49 AM

Class 111 – Rangers

Poland 255-259 have 10 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds, with Crew 9.

ARVN 52 have 14 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds, and Crew 9.

Pakistan 508-512 have 24 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds, and Crew 10.

Greece 327 has 16 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds, and Crew 12.

Nigeria 483 have Speed 1, all others have 6 or 7.

Finland 474 have 5 Weapon 2 (Hand Grenade) rounds, and 4 crew.

Class 246 – Ranger Light Infantry

Italy 335 is the only unit with Speed 7. Even other Lagunari are 6.

Class 247 – Ranger Heavy Infantry

Turkey 317-319 – I wonder whether these would be better as Class 114 (which Turkey doesn’t have at the moment), and perhaps then keep Formation 237 for the LMG, and 238/239 for the AT/ATGM. If you do take that route, relevant sub-formations would also need to be added to Formations 233 & 234.

Richard H

Suhiir

October 22nd, 2011, 01:02 PM

OOB #13 (USMC)

For some reason
Unit #284 Predator Team
and
Unit #288 Predator Team
are both 3-man teams, they should be two.

As a guess I'd say this was done because if it is a two-man team then the cost calculator makes it cost less then Unit #413 SMAW Team (which is two-man) even tho the Predator is superior anti-tank weapon to the SMAW (in both real life and game terms).

dmnt

October 22nd, 2011, 04:11 PM

Class 111 – Rangers

Finland 474 have 5 Weapon 2 (Hand Grenade) rounds, and 4 crew.

I find the Finnish Sissi troops odd as well.

First of all, Apilas: The troops that want to be as mobile as possible do not carry such a big and cumbersome weapon. Also, they would not engage in direct combat with MBTs. More so, I'd guess they prefer LAW for engaging APCs and satchel charges / AT/AP mines.

Second, I think that 4 crew is way too small, but perhaps justified with the dispersive tactics. They're for reconnaissance and sabotage and I understand that they'll prefer to stay out of firefights whenever possible.

The wikipedia article is quite a nice read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sissi_%28Finnish_light_infantry%29

Richard_H

October 22nd, 2011, 04:33 PM

@ Suhiir - haven't got to that class yet (I don't think!). But my main concern this time around is whether or not all Predator teams agree with each other. Whether or not they agree with RL is not (yet) something I'm addressing. But I shall :)

@ dmnt - the Finnish oob has been the subject of so much faffing around, corrections from one Finn to another etc etc, that I'm not sure it knows where it is. But as I've just said, how the game stats stack up to RL is not my concern this time around - Don & Andy know how the game works far better than we do, and if we're going to mess with stats outside the given parameters, then we'd better have 1) some sourced evidence and 2) some considerable playtesting to make sure the new ideas work. There are lots of areas where I don't necessarily agree with them, but I'm not going to publish anything unless I'm damn sure I can back it up.

Richard H

Suhiir

October 22nd, 2011, 04:54 PM

@ Suhiir - haven't got to that class yet (I don't think!). But my main concern this time around is whether or not all Predator teams agree with each other. Whether or not they agree with RL is not (yet) something I'm addressing. But I shall :)

Richard H

My apologies, I was just thinking "anomaly" and failed to consider the the purpose ("agree with each other").

Richard_H

October 22nd, 2011, 05:25 PM

@ Suhiir - not a problem. i've put it on my "to do" list (P.196 :D)

@ Andy - even without my written sources, I'm entering the joust here. First, I haven't seen a single web source (and yes, I read Russian, albeit slowly!) that suggests that the PK version accommodated anything less than 20 pax. Secondly, I've attached a photo of the hatches on a PK - if one thinks about this logically, what can adding armour do to reduce troop capacity? Answer - not a lot. I've also attached (and I know this is iffy, but I Googled it in cyrillic characters, so presumably it's authentic) a photo of a modelled interior of a PK. Now, if the bank of 4 seats on the left take 2 bums each, far right takes 3 and near right takes 4, you end up with 15 - which agrees with nobody! However, if the bank of 4 takes 3 bums each, plus 4 plus 5, you're pretty close to 20 (plus 1 guy saying 'spasibo Tovarishch' for the extra room).

However, the seating layout is nowhere near what Michal suggests. I await a proper shot of the interior of a PK.

My 2 cents worth.

Richard H

Pibwl

October 22nd, 2011, 05:54 PM

Mobhack

October 22nd, 2011, 08:00 PM

However, the seating layout is nowhere near what Michal suggests. I await a proper shot of the interior of a PK.

The layout of benches in this model agrees with a drawing in manual (eg. here http://army.lv/ru/btr-50/2054/3827 ). Unfortunately, there is no information how many troops should seat on one bench. I wrote, that side benches were for 4 troops, which is the only information "officially" given, but it was about BTR-50P, and a specific arrangement might differ. Considering different length of benches in BTR-50PK, I'd say, that 3 troops seat on each side bench, 5+5 troops on longer benches on the left, and 4 troops on somewhat shorter bench on the right. In front, apart from driver's seat, should be seats for vehicle's commander and section commander.

Regards,
Michal

there are a couple of pics of the open-top early version here
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/btr-50-pics.htm

It's fairly packed, and the guys are in parade dress - so no field packs and stuff etc. But I can only make perhaps 12 (3 rows of 4) or maybe 14 in back on trying to count noses in these lo-res shots.

So, I really doubt 20 in the early open top, myself - unless some were supposed to hide in the engine bay ?

They were used in the early 2-vehicle platoon as half-platoon carriers though, but not for very long apparently. "20" was probably a theoretical number (and 3 rows of seats does not divide easily into 20) - unless they were jam-packed in like sardines with one row of 6 in between 2 of seven?.

So - the BTR 50 carry capacity can remain as we have ATM.

Andy

Pibwl

October 22nd, 2011, 08:44 PM

You'll do what you wish. I only say, that the official manual clearly states, that BTR-50P/PK is fit to transport 20 armed soldiers. It's obvious, that in normal service it carried actually less, depending on organization, and for all 20 it sure wouldn't be comfortable. I can't imagine travelling long on benches without backrests even for half of that... 14 + commander travelled normally in the Czechoslovak army. Note, that photos show parade configuration, with standing soldiers (or seating on some higher transversal benches), and they are meant to represent only its section, not full capacity. Five longitudinal benches were a fact - if four soldiers sat on each, it makes 20 (or 3+5+5+4+3).

I can't see a reason, why don't we change a capacity of this APC to real guaranteed one, even, if only 12 or so troops will be normally packed into it. But, as I've said, you do what you wish.

Regards.
Michal

Suhiir

October 22nd, 2011, 09:44 PM

Secondly, I've attached a photo of the hatches on a PK - if one thinks about this logically, what can adding armour do to reduce troop capacity? Answer - not a lot.

Richard H

Not entirely true.
If a vehicle is amphibious (or an aircraft/helo for that matter) adding armor can decrease the potential cargo load thus troop carrying capacity.

My irrelevant to the discussion 2 cents :D

As Mobhack pointed out, the manufacturer often base troop carry capacity on troops no field gear, thus the "real" carry capacity is often less.

FASTBOAT TOUGH

October 23rd, 2011, 02:55 AM

To the BTR-50 APC variant C2 P20 easy to support.
1. From the USA Infantry Training course. Note the reference sources at the top of the second ref.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/accp/in0534/in0534_top.htm
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/accp/in0534/lsn2.htm
I believe I've posted this a year or two ago in the APC thread as source info for you "game designers" as I remember Don used it and still might as a ref source. Glad to do so again. And a note about JANE's here, the editions we bought were not necessarily the one you can buy on the open market-savvy!?! Some have said I served with Capt. Jack Sparrow anyway...

2. Did I ever mention a lot of their info comes from some Russian guys? Anyway always a great go too site and very accurate and and first to report on equipment regularly.
http://www.military-today.com/apc/btr_50.htm

3. Also another good site almost on par with globalsecurity.org.
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/row/btr-50.htm

4. Also a very good site and he's not afraid to list his references note these at the bottom.
http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/cv/inf/BTR-50.html

5. Again source refs at the bottom.
http://www.armscontrol.ru/atmtc/Arms_systems/Land/Armored_Combat_Vehicles/Armor_Combat_Vehicles.htm

6. Now we can address the added armor and personnel issue as it concerns the BTR-50PK this version has the armored roof with C2 P8. This version was not as numerous as the the 50 or 50P ones as the BTR-60 was soon to replace it. But I don't want you to take my word for it, better to take the word of the company that made them for the Soviets in the first place and does the modernization work on them now. I think some might recognize this source. Note KMDB uses Crew 10 across the top of the table.
http://www.morozov.com.ua/eng/body/btr50.php
I'm almost willing to bet the product line in the left corner might just have some useful info in it, just a guess on my part though!?!

This was a warm up for my work to come and an exercise to make a point. Those that "know" me understand the point I made here, and some will never get it. No Wiki, Blogs or other such and I still have some more but I'm ready for bed. I did have a great day with family, a couple of old shipmates and friends, I hope you will as well!
:cheers:

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Richard_H

October 23rd, 2011, 05:00 AM

Onwards & upwards - the paras.

Class 96 – Paratroops

Switzerland 310 have Size 1, and Crew 4.

6-man units are evenly split: Belgium 534 & 535 and Libya 430-432 are Size 0, Finland 490-496 are Size 1.

Norway 412 has 100 Weapon 1 rounds. I only mention it because it’s the first time I’ve seen a 100-rd small arm.

Norway 409 & 410 and Greece 307 have 16 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds, and 9 Crew.

UK 104 & 105 have 30 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds, and 8 Crew.

Greece 305 has 16 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds, and 9 Crew.

Canada 487 & 488 have 20 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds, and 8 Crew.

Russia 83 & 84 have 32 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds, and 7 Crew.

Class 97 – Para Support

Sweden 238, 239, 242 & 243 have Weight 1 – they are all 3-man units.

Sweden 237 has 4 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds, and 3 crew.

Class 98 – Para Light Infantry

Belgium 540, 541 & 549 have Size 0, Crew 6.

Portugal 553 & 554 have Size 1, Crew 5. Other similar (Portuguese) have Size 0. Admittedly these are the only ones with 2 60mm mortars.

Red 457 has 10 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds, and 6 Crew.

Class 99 – Para Medium Infantry

Canada 471 & 472 have 16 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds, and 10 Crew.

Class 100 – Para SMG

As this is only used by France, and France has no Class 97 Units, you could save yourselves a class here. I don’t know how difficult it would be, but personally I’d love to see another cavalry class . . .(dream on :>)

Richard H

Pibwl

October 23rd, 2011, 05:31 AM

As Mobhack pointed out, the manufacturer often base troop carry capacity on troops no field gear, thus the "real" carry capacity is often less.

As I've said, the manual, published by the Soviet MoD in 1963, states, that both variants (P and PK) can carry 20 soldiers with full combat equipment. I have an impression, that you think, that for some reason I'm lying to you, trying to convince you to change BTR-50PK's load :confused: In any case, I'm attaching the first and 4th page of manual - I didn't produce this document myself.

As for http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/accp/in0534/lsn2.htm - though the capacity refers explicitly to BTR-50P, they don't say, that BTR-50PK had lower capacity. BTR-50PK was definitely more popular variant, being a mainstay of tank divisions, replaced by BMP-1, not BTR-60. By the way, standard armament according to manual was 7.62mm SGMB, not 12.7 DShK.

As for http://www.morozov.com.ua/eng/body/btr50.php - well, crew of 10 is an apparent error, and I don't even know what they meant by "crew". Maybe if each trooper had comfortable shockproof individual seat, it would be 10 indeed. The Czechs carried 16 men inside (including crew).

I'm not saying, that I KNOW how many troops BTR-50PK could accommodate - I can only quote a first-hand source, while lower number is only a supposition. Do what you think is right.

Regards
Michal

Richard_H

October 23rd, 2011, 06:41 AM

Motorcycles

Class 49 – Motorcycles

Size – 2 schools of thought here, by the look of it. One that says ‘units of 4 men or less should always be size 0’, and one that goes for size 1. I know I made a case earlier for size 0 small bicycle units but unless it has a highly baffled exhaust, you can’t hide the noise of a motorcycle, and in dry conditions it will also kick up dust. So I’d favour size 1.
The size 0 units are:- Italy 290 & 291, Switzerland 502-504 and 641-647.
Sweden 73 is size 2 (2-man unit).

Italy 290 & 291 have no Lift Capacity. Of all the units here, I would have thought they were more able than most to carry bodies (although maybe not with 3 crew).

Switzerland 642 & 643 have Lift Capacity 3 – do I assume sidecars?

Poland 780, N.Korea 655, E.Germany 239 & Czech 201 have Lift Capacity 106. 3 motorbikes towing a gun – hmmm. Or do they need this to carry their Mech Scouts?

Israel 379, Switzerland 502-504 and 644-647 all have RoF less than 9, even though they have small arms as their primary weapon.

Mujahadeen 471, E.Germany 655-658, Switzerland 502-504 & 641-647 all have Weight less than 10. Does the same rule apply to motorcycles as to other vehicles, ie minimum 10? From the look of Class 187, the answer is no.

E.Germany 655-658 are 1-man, unarmed units. Don’t think I’ll be buying any in a hurry . . .

Class 187 – Light Motorcycles

Size 0 units – Afghanistan 605-610, Italy 292-294.

Jordan 485 has Lift Capacity 2, all others have 0.

Cuba 510-513 & Portugal 313 have 6 Weapon 2 (Hand Grenade) rounds, and 4 Crew.

Uruguay 260-262 have 8 Weapon 2 and 8 Weapon 3 (both Hand Grenade) rounds, and 5 Crew.

Portugal 314 has 6 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds, and 4 Crew.

Class 188 – Heavy Motorcycles

Sweden 72 has Weight 10. All others apart from the Quad Bikes have 0.

S.Africa 295-297 have 10 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds, and 9 Crew.

Richard H

Richard_H

October 23rd, 2011, 08:19 AM

I've just tested the Czech motorcycles - they load fine with a Lift Capacity of just 6. As the other oobs I mentioned appear to be clones, I'm assuming they will do likewise.

Richard H

DRG

October 24th, 2011, 01:27 PM

I've said, the manual, published by the Soviet MoD in 1963, states, that both variants (P and PK) can carry 20 soldiers with full combat equipment. I have an impression, that you think, that for some reason I'm lying to you, trying to convince you to change BTR-50PK's load :confused: In any case, I'm attaching the first and 4th page of manual - I didn't produce this document myself.Regards
Michal

What we have ( and I'm done with this as of right now ) is nitpicking by source. Any disagreement or doubt is directed at the source and waving one source around like it's the holy grail is a waste of time. We could spend the rest of our lives ( and I have no intention of doing that ) "debating" the merits of one source over another and I could spend the rest of my life making corrections to the OOB's based on whoever just popped up with a new source ( and I have NO intention of doing that either )

Let's look at one historically popular vehicle and some "sources" for a moment

One would think 66 years after the last one was made and hundreds of thousands of pages written about the vehicle that all sources would agree on the road speed of a Tiger 1 yet one on line source of detailed information says the Max level road speed is 28 mph or 45 kph whereas another well used on line source the same thing but adds that this was not recommended for normal operation

I have a Profile Publication that gives the max road speed as 23 MPH ( 37 kph ) and I have a Weapons of World War 2 encyclopedia that claims it's 38 kph ( 24 MPH ) and another encyclopedia that says it's 37 kmh and 23 mph.

So much for "sources" but in this case it's a safe bet 37 or 38 is close enough but when you convert that to game speeds 37 = 12.33 which is rounded to 12 and 38 = 12.66 which rounds up to 13 and I have NO DOUBT there are people who think it should be 15 because the Fprado webpage says the Max level road speed is 28 mph /45 kph . The just haven't shown up yet, but they will and I have no double there are other sources that differ from these numbers. ( and Prado is quoting those numbers from another "source" )

If I had more time and a staff of 10 I would keep a record of each unit in each nation and note the changes made and who asked they be made then let anyone who disagrees argue it out with them but I don't but I do know the Russian OOB was seriously gone over a few years back so if anything in any other OOB differs from the Russian OOB values the Russian OOB values will be the correction.

We still have some OOB's using NATO names for equipment. Andy prefers NATO names and I prefer the Russian designations and it's a PITA to keep the weapon specs in all the OOB's the same when Iglas are named "Gimlet" but that goes off topic.

The point is, no matter what, somebody will have a source that differs from somebody else's source. When the Russian OOB was redone the BTR-50PK's were very specifically given a 114 carry cap and the rest 120.

Don

Pibwl

October 24th, 2011, 05:29 PM

I understand, that you must be very busy coordinating all OOBs and deciding, what changes should be made and if they are justified. However, it's not, that I'm waving one source against another - there is only one official and first-hand source, which is a military manual, and it's backed up by works of Russian experts, like M. Baryatynski. On the other hand, there are no sources for lower number - only suppositions or opinions of people, who had improved the Russian OOB before, impossible to track now. There is no reason to deny the officially given number, since it concerns a feature easy to be verified by APC users, not as vague, as (for example) speed.

You all did a great work, I myself joined SPMBT only recently, but I see some things, that could be improved or corrected to bring the game as close to historical truth as possible. And I'm treating it serious. I'm interested in military stuff, mostly Warsaw pact, for some 25 years, and I have some knowledge, backed up by local sources. You may decide to change the number of BTR-50's troops or not, I won't be offended - but the decision shouldn't be made on a basis, that somebody once stated it as 14 soldiers so it must be true, contrary to reliable sources.

To end the dispute on BTR-50, I've made a simulation of placing soldiers on five known benches. The soldiers (taken from Bradley) are 50 cm wide, but they could be even wider. I hope it proves, that it was possible, although of course uncomfortable (and not used in practice too often).

I must however admit, that I've found a side effect of increasing BTR's capacity: when deploying an unit, two sections go to one APC, leaving another one empty. In fact, the Czechoslovak Army in the 1960s used two APC for three 7-men sections this way (I was going to propose appropriate changes). I don't know, how about the Soviet Army, but I assume it had to be similar with such capacious vehicles. It however would demand further changes in formations, for which I have no sources.

Please, let me know, if you're interested in further suggestions what to improve in Eastern European OOBs, so I know if to devote my time to it further (I have some half-ready ones).

Regards
Michal Derela

DRG

October 24th, 2011, 07:49 PM

Right now I have MORE than enough to keep me busy until the end of winter.

Don

dmnt

October 28th, 2011, 06:28 AM

To keep Don warm (or overheated) in the cold winter:

Finnish OOB, unit 474:
Sissi Section, 1/83-1/87
Weapon 3 is Apilas (not in use at that time)

suggested replacement: 66 KeS Orak (M72 LAW), 2-4 pieces.

Unit: 574
AGL Nest, 1/99-12/120
Weapon 1 & 2: 30mm AGS-17 GL (Finnish designation 30mm KrKK 93)
replaced by 40mm KrKK 05 (US designation MK-19) in 2005

RDF (Rapid Deployment Force) seems to be a bit undervalued compared to other troops, such as Sissi Co or Coast Jaeger Co, which consist of regular conscripts. RDF Co should probably have higher experience and morale than Sissi Co, but similar to Para and lower than Special Jaegers. They're more trained and usually have experience from peace keeping missions abroad.

Current values (Exp/morale)
RDF Co: 3/0
Sissi Co: 5/10
Coast Jaeger Co: 5/5
Para Co: 10/10
Special Jg: 15/15

Suggestion: I believe that 10/10 or 15/10 would present them properly.

Formation 052: MBT Company
Consists of 2 Leopard 2A4S's and 3 platoons of T-72s, which I find quite odd. T-72 is no longer in active service and so I would think that this should be consisting of 3 platoons of MBTs. MBT Platoon is not used in any formation.

Richard_H

November 17th, 2011, 04:57 PM

Back live. SP Mortars to start with:-

Class 38 – SP Mortars

Switzerland 626 & 770 (Bison) are in this class, but they appear as fortifications. The following units (2 Bison) are Class 156 (Off-Map Heavy Artillery). They have Speed 0, so they aren’t SP-ing anywhere in a hurry. Typo?

Switzerland 760-765 are also Speed 0, and are called ‘Moerser Festung’, or Mortar Fortress. If the oob designer wanted to distinguish them from vanilla bunkers, they could be changed to Class 152.

EE-11 – Brazil 57 has Crew 4, Green 512 has 6.

Type YW 304 (& derivatives) – Iran 202 has Survivability 3, others have 4.

VTT PM – France 439 & Ecuador 57 have Crew 6, Gulf 215 & 216 have 5; France 440, Belgium 33 and Saudi 215 & 216 have 3. The correct number (for both versions) is, I think, 6.
France 439 & 440 and Ecuador 57 have Speed 21, others have 22. I think 21 is correct.
Belgium 33 has Survivability 3, others have 4. It also has armour stats 6/3/2/3/3/2/1, others have 4/2/2/4/2/2/1.
Gulf 215 has 80 81mm rounds, others have 88.

MT-LB 82mm – S.Yemen 217 has Crew 5, others have 4.
Red 125 has Survivability 4, others have 3.
Czech 35 & Hungary 35 have RoF 9, Ukraine 590 has 8, others have 7.
Iraq 220 & S.Yemen 217 have 48 Weapon 1 (Mortar) rounds, Poland 35, Czech 35 & Hungary 35 have 50, Red 125 & Ukraine 590 have 60.

MT-LB 120mm – Russia 592 & Red 126 have Survivability 4, others have 3.
Czech 405 & 406 and Hungary 405 have RoF 8, others have 5.
Russia 592 has 60 Weapon 1 (Mortar) rounds, Iraq 221 has 42, others have 40. I don’t know whether the fact that they are different mortars makes a difference.
Russia 592, Iraq 221, Red 126 & Ukraine 592 have 120 Weapon 2 (PKT TMG) rounds, others have 90.

MT-LB Vasilek – Poland 406 has Survivability 3, Russia 591 has 4. Standard for MT-LBs appears to be 3.
Polish & Russian versions have Crew 5, Hungary 406 & Ukraine 591 have 4. Hungary & Ukraine also have Speed 22, others 20.
Hungary & Ukraine have 50/10 Weapon 1 HE/HEAT rounds, others have 74/6.
Poland 406 & Hungary 406 have 90 Weapon 2 (PKT TMG) rounds, Russia 591 & Ukraine 591 have 120.

2S4 – Russia 589 has Size 5, Crew 5, Speed 21, Swim Speed 0, Load Cost 27. Others have 3/4/18/2/10. Russian unit also has no top armour, others have 1.
Other units are Syria 335, Czech 417 & Ukraine 589.
Syria 335 has Survivability 3, others have 4.
Iraq 223 has different stats from the others, but also has a different name (2S1 – 240).

M3 60mm – S.Korea 210 has Survivability 0, other M3-based mortar carriers have 3.

M3 Series 81mm – Greece 79 has Crew 5, France 433, and Argentina 54 & 55 have 6; Israel 500, UK 420, Jordan 290, Iran 200, Denmark 30, Brazil 55 & Chile 55 have 4. I suspect 6 is correct.
France 433 has Speed 22; UK, Jordan, Iran, Greece & Denmark have 18, the remainder 24. I know the International Harvester version had a different engine from the original, so this may account for the difference.
Greece 79 & Denmark 30 have RoF 8, others 7.
France 433 has 97 Weapon 1 (Mortar) rounds, Greece 79 has 66, the remainder have 60.

M3/M4 107mm – UK 419 has Crew 4 & RoF 6, Italy 59 has 5/7. UK 419 has 40 Weapon 1 (Mortar) rounds, Italy 59 has 66.

M21 – Austria 29, Cambodia 270 & 271, Lebanon 200, Ecuador 55, El Salvador 55, Nicaragua 55 & 56, and Peru 55 have Crew 4, S.Yemen 215 & 216 have 5, others have 6.
USA 505, S.Korea 211, Taiwan 211 & Belgium 31 have Speed 22, others have 24.
Ecuador 55 has Lift Capacity 2, others have 0.
Thailand 229 has RoF 8, others have 7.
S.Yemen 215 & 216 have 48 Weapon 1 (Mortar) rounds; USA 505, S.Korea 211, Taiwan 211 & Belgium 31 have 97, all others have 60.

M106 – Taiwan 212 has Crew 6, Italy 61 has 4, others have 3.
S.Korea 212, Taiwan 212, Norway 27, Italy 61 & Denmark 32 have Speed 23, others have 21.
Italy 61 has Weight 12, others have 10.
Italy 61 & Cambodia 272 have RoF 7, others have 6. Denmark 32 has RoF 8 (should be 7 for standard 81mm mortar).
Italy 61 has 86 Weapon 1 rounds, others have 88. It also has top armour 0, others have 1.

M106A1 – Crews are mixed. Portugal 41 & Peru 56 have 4, Gulf 218 has 5, Thailand 232 has 6, the rest have 3. This video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zH_acrD8Oo&feature=related appears to show a crew of 4 on a M106A2. Those with 3 crew are:- USA 32, Belgium 32, Netherlands 64, Greece 83 & Saudi 219.
Belgium 32 has Survivability 3, others have 4.
Greece 83, Thailand 232 & Saudi 219 have RoF 7, others have 6.
Belgium 32 & Portugal 41 have 50 Weapon 1 rounds, Netherlands 64 has 86, others have 88.

M106A2 – Crews are:- Egypt 361 has 2, Israel 505, USA 31 and Greece 84 & 85 have 3, Argentina 56 has 6. See above.
Egypt 361 has Speed 21, others have 23.
Greece 84 & 85 have RoF 7, others have 6. NB Greece 85 has a 120mm mortar.
Egypt 361 has Weapon 1 ammo 60, others have 88.

M106A3 – USA 38 has Speed 20, Chile 56 has 23. Both have Crew 3 (see above). Armour for US version is 5/4/3//4/3/2, for Chilean 3/2/1/3/2/1/1.

M125 – Greece 80 has RoF 8, standard 81mm is 7.
Jordan 292 has 60 Weapon 1 rounds, Greece 80 has 114. I believe the correct loadout is 114 (www.afvdb.com).

M125A1 – Crews are mixed:- Iran 201, Denmark 31 & Saudi 217 have 3, Brazil 56 & Portugal 40 have 4, Gulf 217 has 5, Taiwan 213 & Thailand 230 have 6.
Spain 71 & Denmark 31 have RoF 9, Thailand 230 has 8, others have 7.
Iran 201, Gulf 217, Denmark 31 & Portugal 40 have 60 Weapon 1 (Mortar) rounds, Saudi 217 has 69, the remainder have 114 (qv M125).

M125A2 – Lebanon 201 has Crew 4, others have 3.
Egypt 362 has Speed 21, others have 23.

M1064 – Crews are mixed:- Egypt 360 has 2, USA 33, Iraq 219, Saudi 220 & N.Yemen 216 have 3, Italy 62 & 63 have 4, Gulf 220 has 5, Argentina 57 & Thailand 233 have what I believe to be the correct figure of 6 (So does www.fas.org).
Egypt 360 has Speed 21, all others have 23.
Gulf 220 & Saudi 220 have Survivability 3, all others have 4.
Italy 62 & 63 have Weight 12, others have 10.
USA 33, Iraq 219, Italy 62 & 63 have RoF 6, others have the standard 120mm RoF of 5.
Weapon 1 loadouts vary from 40 to 69. However, Egypt 360 has 90 rounds, which is more than are carried by the 107mm-armed M106. Egypt is also the only version to have vision (20).
Maybe by way of compensation, the Egyptian version has only 60 Weapon 2 rounds, others have 90.
Italy 62 & 63 have no top armour, others have 1.

M113 Mortar Carriers (undefined):- Netherlands 65, Spain 70, Cambodia 269 & Nicaragua 57 have Crew 3, Ecuador 56 has 4. All have Speed 20.
Spain 70 has RoF 8, with a 120mm mortar. It also carries 69 Weapon 1 rounds (standard loadout for a 120mm is 40). It also has no top armour, standard is 1.

Class 133 – Light SP Mortar.

M125A1 – Pakistan 58 & Turkey 71 have RoF 8, others have 7.

M113 Mortar Carriers – ARVN 237, Turkey 72 & 73 have RoF 9 (standard 81mm mortar is 7).

Richard H

Richard_H

November 17th, 2011, 04:58 PM

Mortars in all their guises . . .

Class 5 – Mortars

Argentina 506 has Size 0, all others have 1.

Chad 61 has Speed 5, the standard for 60mm mortars is 3.

Uruguay 106 has Speed 0, standard for 107mm mortars is 1.

Poland 510, Nigeria 69, Sudan 80 & 82 and Uruguay 105 have Speed 3, standard for 81/82mm mortar sections is 2.

Switzerland 174, 175, 721 & 729 are the only units with a Vision figure (10).

Libya 84 & 85 have RoF 7, standard for 107mm mortars is 6.

NVA 72-74, Pakistan 84, Greece 137-139, Turkey 117 & 118, Hungary 510-513, Romania 70, 75 & 76, Libya 80-83 and Ethiopia 82 & 87 have RoF 8, standard for 81/82mm mortars is 7.

Class 152 – Heavy Mortars

France 429 – should this be classed as a Heavy Mortar?

105mm Mortars – Denmark 104 has Crew 12, others have 8.

107mm Mortars – Pakistan 80 & Indonesia 66 have Weight 2, others have 1.
India 83 has Crew 10, others have 8.
Cyprus 77 has Speed 2, others have 1.
Greece 141 & 142, Turkey 120 & 121 and Ethiopia 84 have RoF 7, others have 6.

120mm Mortar – PLO 74 & 75 have RoF 7, Libya 87 has 6, others have 5.
S.Yemen 87 has Weight 1, others have 2.
Argentina 63, Brazil 63 & 64 and Chile 63 have 25 Weapon 1 rounds, Uruguay 107 has 30, Italy 111 & 112 have 50, others have 40.

120mm Mortars – Greece 143 has RoF 7, USA 86, NVA 76, Turkey 123 & 124, Hungary 515-518, Libya 86 & Ethiopia 86 have 6, Romania 78-80 have 4, others have 5.
Sudan 88 has Weight 3, others have 2.
Jordan 87 has Crew 8, Turkey 123 & 124 have 10, others have 12.
Romania 79 has Speed 0, others have 1.
France 413 and Sudan 86-89 have 30 Weapon 1 & 2 rounds, others have 40.

160mm Mortar – Czech 520 & 521 and Hungary 520 have Size 2, others have 1.
PLO 77 & Ecuador 63 have Weight 2, Albania 64 has 4, others have 3.
NVA 79, Czech 520 & 521, Hungary 520 & Libya 88 have RoF 4, others have 3.
PLO 77 has 20 Weapon 1 rounds, others have 24.

160mm Mortars – Romania 335 has Size 3, Crew 8, Weight 0 & RoF 4, others have 1/16/3/3
Yugoslavia 310-312 have 20 Weapon 1 & 2 rounds, others have 24..

240mm Mortar – Libya 89 has Size 1, Crew 12 & Weight 3, others have 4/10/4.
Russia 438 has RoF 2, others have 3.
Hungary 524 has 15 Weapon 1 rounds, others have 20.

Richard H

DRG

November 18th, 2011, 09:50 AM

Richard_H

November 18th, 2011, 02:25 PM

Don

I have never set myself up as an 'advisor', these were merely thoughts about an oob which I suspect even you will admit is somewhat out of the ordinary. It is nothing to do with my understanding of the game, indeed I would be surprised if many people realised what the situation was until you explained it.

Let me put it clearly: I don't have to do this exercise, but thought it might be of assistance, as Andy also suggested. However, your attitude does not put me in the frame of mind to continue to try and save you a considerable amount of hard work.

Richard H

DRG

November 19th, 2011, 09:34 PM

In the nearly 14 years I have been doing this I have found , in most cases ( there are exceptions ) the correctors rarely like being corrected back. If you feel qualified to offer page after page after page of "Anomaly reports" then expect to be corrected from time to time when it's obvious you don't have experience in OOB design. If you did you wouldn't suggest an infantry unit class should be given armour ratings. It would seem it's OK to tell us we are in error but not the other way round because that's "attitude". Would it help if I sprinkled more of these around ??:):):):)

Everything in that post was an explanation of why it was done the way it was done and I only bothered to comment, so perhaps it doesn't happen again, because those two points caught my eye when I was cutting and pasting the info to our "to-check" list .

If you choose to continue your project and make incorrect assumptions expect to be corrected again . If you consider that "attitude" then so be it.:)

Don

Suhiir

November 20th, 2011, 12:55 PM

Don't take Don personally.
I have a permanent imprint of his teeth in my arse :fish:

DRG

November 20th, 2011, 02:23 PM

Right next to the USMC tattoo ......:smirk:

Richard_H

November 20th, 2011, 05:59 PM

@ Suhiir

Thanks for the reality check!

@ Don

I expect corrections, indeed I welcome them, because it improves my knowledge and understanding. However, there are ways and ways of going about them, and to say that I do not understand OOB design merely because I misread a couple of units in a reworked oob is both unfair and unwarranted. You may recall that you were happy enough to take on board my amendments to the Dutch oob in WW2 a few years back . . . . I've actually been at this almost as long as you - are you saying you never get caught out? We all do from time to time, it's called being human. But let's get this straight - not all of what you said was an explanation, some of it was a personal attack. Which, thanks to Suhiir, I shall ignore.

More to follow, but it will not be "advice", merely information.

Richard H

Richard_H

November 21st, 2011, 08:22 AM

More mortars.

Class 153 – Light Mortar

Nigeria 64 is not within the time-frame of the country, not used by any of the ‘official’ scenarios, and is a 81mm weapon.

60mm Mortar – Sudan 586 has Weight 1, all others have 0.
Thailand 573 has RoF 9, others have 8.

2 60mm Mortars – NVA 68-71 have Speed 5, all others have 3. 1 extra for stealth, concealment etc maybe, but I wouldn’t have thought 2?
Denmark 92-94 have Crew 7, others have 6.
NVA 68-71, Greece 134-136, Turkey 115 and Brazil 529-531 have RoF 9, others have 8.
Argentina 565 & Brazil 529-531 have 45 Weapon 1 & 2 rounds, others have 60.

3 60mm Mortars – Ethiopia 85 has RoF 9, all others have 8.

Class 173 – Para Mortar Team

Belgium 527 is the only unit in-class with a Fire Control rating.

N.Korea 598 & 599, and Belgium 527, 542 & 543 are Size 0, all others are 1.

China 405 & 407 have Speed 3. Standard speed for a 107mm mortar (the nearest equivalent) is 1. Maybe 2 because they’re paras?

India 545 & 546 don’t actually possess a mortar.

Up to 60mm – N.Korea 598 & 599, and Switzerland 366 have Speed 3; Yugoslavia 293 has 4; France 344 & 381, Yugoslavia 289-292 and Croatia 293 have 5; all others (the vast majority) have 6.
French, N.Korean & Swiss units have RoF 8, all others have 9.
Belgium 542 & 543 have Crew 5, standard is either 3 or 4.
India 542-544 have Crew 10, but they appear to have a somewhat different function to standard para mortar teams.

81mm – Switzerland 367, Indonesia 571-573 and Rhodesia 98 have Speed 2; USA 516 and Italy 415-417 have 3; S.Africa 215-217 have 4; Portugal 217 & 218 have 5, and Ethiopia 438 & 457 have 6.
USA 516 and S.Africa 215-217 have a ‘man over’, ie Crews of 9.
S.African units have RoF 9; Ethiopian, Indonesian & Portuguese units have RoF 8, standard is 7.

Richard H

Richard_H

November 21st, 2011, 08:24 AM

Class 200 – Mortar Subtype A

Poland 206 (and 204 in the next class) appear to be the only mortars in existence with an AP round. I have no information on the M98, it just looks out of place, especially with nothing to improve its accuracy.

50-60mm – N.Korea 597, Canada 270-273 and Cambodia 596-598 have Size 0, all others have 1.
Canada 270-273 have 2 Crew, Nicaragua 510 has 4, Denmark 95-97 have 7, standard is 3. France 407 & 408 have 3 Crew for 2 mortars, standard is 6. However, the Canadian units also have only 30 Weapon 1 rounds (standard is 60), hence maybe the size and crew.
Israel 535 has Speed 6, for a 52mm, standard is 4.
China 99, 100, 102 & 103 have Speed 5 for a 60mm, standard is 3.
ARVN 520, Greece 340-342, Turkey 400, Brazil 558-560, Thailand 561 & Ethiopia 79 have RoF 9, all others have 8.
Brazil 558-560 have 45 Weapon 1 (mortar) rounds, standard is 60.

81/82mm – ARVN 524, Belgium 459, Czech 510-513 and Libya 235-238 have RoF 8, standard is 7.
USMC 272 & Argentina 505 have Size 0, others have 1.
Italy 800 has 4 Crew for 2 mortars, Jordan 574 & 575 have 6, Belgium 459 has 7, standard is 8. USMC 270 & 271 have Crew 8 for 1 mortar, standard is 4.
Nigeria 592, Kenya 412, Sudan 251 & 252 and Uruguay 460 have Speed 3, standard is 2. However, they also only carry 40 Weapon 1 rounds, so this may be a trade-off.
PLO 65 has Speed 1, China 101 has 3, but no trade-off.
Sudan 253, Bulgaria 474-477 and Somalia 64 have Weight 1, Sweden 424 has 3, standard is 0 (even for multiple mortars).
Brazil 561-563, Chile 580 & 581 and Sudan 253 have 35 Weapon 1 (mortar) rounds, Australia 309-312, NVA 188, Green 453 & Rhodesia 140 have 40, standard is 50. NB also applies to Weapon 2 for Australian units.

107mm – Uruguay 461 has Speed 0, Peru 587 has 2, all others have 1.
Ecuador 547 & Nicaragua 513 have Weight 0, all others have 1.
Libya 239 has RoF 7, all others have 6.
Uruguay 461 has 35 Weapon 1 (mortar) rounds, Chile 582 has 30, all others have 40.

120mm – Russia 563 & 566 have Crew 12, standard is 6. PLO 66 has Crew 8 for 2 mortars, standard is 12.
Egypt 512 & Russia 815 have Crew 5 and Weight 1, all others have 6/2. The Russian unit has a different weapon (2B18) which would account for the crew difference, but AFAIK it is considerably heavier than the M1943.
Russia 815 & NVA 189 have 30 Weapon 1 (Mortar) rounds, all others have 40.

240mm – Syria 78 has 15 Weapon 1 (Mortar) rounds, standard is 20.

Class 201 – Mortar subtype B

Poland 204 – see previous class.

50-60mm – Lebanon 571 is Size 0, standard is 1.
Brazil 567-569 and Ethiopia 290 have RoF 9, standard is 8.
Brazil 567-569 have 45 Weapon 1 (mortar) rounds, standard is 60.

81/82mm – Argentina 616 is Size 0, standard is 1.
Jordan 577 & 578 and Lebanon 573 have Crew 3, standard is 4.
Finland 679-683 have Weight 1, standard is 0.
Belgium 558 & 560, Greece 344-346, Turkey 402 & 403, and Ethiopia 291 & 292 have RoF 8, standard is 7.

107mm – Belgium 559 & 561 and Ethiopia 293 have RoF 7, standard is 6.
Cyprus 295 has Speed 2, standard is 1.

120mm – Algeria 495 & 496 have Weight 1, Sudan 261 has 3, standard is 2.
Ethiopia 294 has RoF 6, standard is 5.
Sudan 259-262 have 30 Weapon 1 (mortar) rounds, standard is 40.

160mm – Egypt 80 has 20 Weapon 1 (mortar) rounds, standard is 24.

240mm – Egypt 81 has 15 Weapon 1 (mortar) rounds, standard is 20.

Richard H

Richard_H

November 21st, 2011, 08:26 AM

Class 202 – Mortar subtype C

81/82mm – Poland 188 & 189 have Speed 3, standard is 2.
Ethiopia 81 & 83 have RoF 8, standard is 7.
Australia 590-593 and Italy 418-420 have 40 Weapon 1 (mortar) rounds, standard is 50. NB also applies to Weapon 2 for Italian units.

107mm - Greece 348 & 349 and Turkey 405 & 406 have RoF 7, standard is 6.

120mm – Jordan 558 has Crew 4, USA 518 has 5, standard is 6.
Eritrea 73 has Speed 0, standard is 1.
USA 518 & Belgium 188 have Weight 1, standard is 2.
USA 518 and Turkey 408 & 409 have RoF 6, standard is 5.

160mm – N.Yemen 587 has Crew 6, standard is 8.

Class 255 – Mortar subtype D

60mm – Thailand 173 has RoF 9, standard is 8.

82mm Vasilek – Yugoslavia 597 has Speed 1, others have 0.
E.Germany 225 has 48 Weapon 1 HE rounds, others have 56. It also has 48 HEAT rounds, others have 4.

120mm – Poland 527-529 have Size 0, standard is 1. They also have Crew 4 (standard is 6), Speed 0 (standard is 1) and Weight 1 (standard is 2).
France 475 has Speed 2, France 476 has 0, standard is 1.
France 475 & 476 have 30 Weapon 1 and 2 (mortar) rounds, standard is 40.

Richard H

Richard_H

November 21st, 2011, 08:44 AM

Machine Guns. I've made the assumption with this and (I hope) all other infantry units that the hand grenade loadout is by convention a multiple of the number of men in the unit. If I'm wrong, such information can be ignored.

Class 4 – MG Section

I’ve noticed that speeds for MMGs/GPMGs are either 5 (222 units) or 6 (40 units), probably according to the ideas of the individual oob designer. Taking nothing else into consideration, I have standardised on 5, if only because 6 is the standard infantry unit speed and I believe that there should be some penalty for the additional encumbrance. I may, however, have gone the wrong way, or this may be one of those cases where a standard speed isn’t necessary; in either case mea culpa.

Israel 465, Mujahadeen 96, Belgium 91 & 92, Denmark 298-302, E.Germany 79, Cyprus 206, Sweden 220-223, and Bulgaria 295-297 have Weight 1, all others have 0.

E.Germany 79 & 211, Romania 96, Red 149, Bosnia 47 & Croatia 47 have FC & RF 0, all others have 1/1.

NVA has reduced crew and size for HMG sections. Probably a country thing.

Denmark 298-302 have 7 crew for 2 MMG. Again, probably a country thing.

.30cal M1917 – Used by Austria 90 as a MMG.

.30cal M1919 – Libya 196 has Size 1 and Crew 8, others have 0/6. It also has 8 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds.
USA 773 has Crew 10 for 3 guns, Japan 281 has 9. May be a country thing?
S.Korea 255 has 8 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 6 Crew.

FN-MAG (& derivatives) – Libya 197 & Chile 91 have Size 1, others have 0. They also have Crew 8 for 2 guns (others have 6), and the Libyan unit has 8 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds.
Sweden 223 has Crew 8 for 2 guns.
UK 180 & 181, Gulf 91, Pakistan 298, Belgium 89 & 90, Netherlands 184 & 185, Greece 191 & 192, Chad 79, Saudi 91 & Uganda 76 have Speed 6, others have 5.

DShK – Egypt 90 & Syria 100 have Speed 3, others have 4.
N.Korea 422 & 424 have Crew 5, others have 4. They also have 5 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds.

M2/M2HB – ARVN 67 & Sweden 225 have Size 0 for a section, others have 1.
ARVN 67 has 6 Crew for 2 guns, others have 8. It also has 12 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds.
Uruguay 131 & 132 and Paraguay 92 have 6 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 8 Crew.

M60 – Mujahadeen 94 has Size 1, others have 0.
Gulf 92, S.Korea 251 & 256, Taiwan 251, Mujahadeen 94, ARVN 66, Saudi 92, Zimbabwe 43 & Uganda 75 have Speed 6, others have 5.

Maxim – E.Germany 211 has Size 0, others have 1. It also has Crew 3, others have 4, and 3 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds.
Czech 350 has Crew 7 for 2 guns, others have 8. It also has 4 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds.
Red 149 has Crew 3 and Speed 5, others have 4/4. It also has 3 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds.
Poland 350 has 6 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 8 Crew.

MG42 (and derivatives) – Sweden 221 has 8 Crew for 2 guns, 222 has 10 crew for 3 guns. Others have 3 crew per gun.

MG3 – Pakistan 297, Greece 671, Turkey 372 & 373, W.Germany 264-266, Angola 75 & Sudan 93 have Speed 6. Standard for MMG is 5, although 6 is the majority here (qv note above).

NSV – Syria 101 has Speed 3, others have 4.
N.Korea 423 has Crew 5, others have 4. It also has 5 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds.

PKM/PKMS – Mujahadeen 93 & Libya 199 have Size 1, others have 0.
N.Korea 421 has Crew 4, others have 3. It also has 4 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds.
Libya 199 has Crew 8 for 2 guns, others have 6. It also has 8 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds.
Egypt 88 & Syria 98 have Speed 4, Mujahadeen 93 has 6, others have 5.

SG-43 – Czech 351 & 352 have Size 1, others have 0. They also have Crew 7 (others have 6), and 4 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds.

SGM – Mujahadeen 92 & Libya 198 have Size 1, others have 0.
N.Korea 420 has Crew 4, others have 3. It also has 4 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds.
Libya 198 has Crew 8 for 2 guns, others have 6. It also has 8 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds.
Egypt 87, Syria 97, Chad 77 & Sudan 91 have Speed 4, others have 5.

Type 67 – Mujahadeen 95 has Speed 6, others have 5.
Zimbabwe 42 has 5 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds, for 6 Crew.

Type 77 HMG – China 299 has Speed 5, standard for a HMG is 4. While the Type 77 is much lighter than the Type 54, it’s still twice the weight of the Type 67 GPMG (http://world.guns.ru).

Type 92 HMG – Indonesia 90 has Speed 5, standard HMG speed is 4.

Vickers HMG – Libya 519 has Crew 8 for 1 gun, others have 4.
Gulf 90, Uruguay 130 & Paraguay 93 have 6 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 8 Crew.

Vz.37 – Israel 463, Romania 92 & Bulgaria 294 have Crew 6 for 2 guns, others have 8. They also have 6 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds.
Romania 92 has Speed 4, others have 5.
Peru 574 is mis-named, there is only one.

zb.53 HMG – Chile 92 has 6 crew for 2 guns. Standard crew for HMG is 4. It also has 6 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds.

Richard H

Richard_H

November 21st, 2011, 08:45 AM

MG Part 2

Class 144 – Para MG

Poland 475 & 476 have FC 2, standard for MMG is 1.
Switzerland 360 & 361 have FC 0 & Rangefinder 0, standard for both is 1.

.30cal M1919 – Greece 317 has Speed 6, others have 5.
Argentina 486 has 8 Crew for 2 guns, standard is 6. It also has 8 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds.

DShK – Indonesia 575 & 582 have Speed 5, standard is 4.

FN-MAG – Greece 318 & 319 have Speed 6, others have 5.
Argentina 487 has 8 Crew for 2 guns, standard is 6. It also has 8 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds.

M2/M2HB – Indonesia 574 & 581 have Speed 5, standard is 4.
Switzerland 360 & 361 have Crew 6 for 2 guns, others have 8. They also have 4 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds.

SG-43 – Czech 475 & 476 have Crew 7 for 2 guns, standard is 6. They also have 4 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds and Size 1 (others have 0).

Class 149 – Para MG Section

M2/M2HB – Belgium 526, 538 & 539 have Speed 5, standard is 4. They also have FC & Rangefinder 0, standard is 1/1.

MG42 (and derivatives) – Portugal 219 & 220 have 8 Crew for 2 guns, standard is 6. They also have 8 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds.

Class 176 – Heavy MG

Mujahadeen 112 has Weight 1, standard is 0.

Norway 118-120 and Switzerland 162 & 163 have FC & Rangefinder 0, standard is 1/1.

Indonesia 97 & 98 have Speed 5, standard is 4.

DShK – Russia 572 & Czech 354 have 3 crew, standard is 4. Czech unit also has 3 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds.
Czech 353 has 7 Crew for 2 guns, standard is 8. It also has 4 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds.
Poland 353 has 6 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 8 Crew.

M2/M2HB – Netherlands 188 & 189 have Size 1, standard for 1 gun is 0.
Turkey 374-376 have 6 crew for 2 guns, standard is 8. They also have 12 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds.
USA 93, 94 & 227 have 3 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 4 crew.

NSV – Russia 573 & 574 and Czech 214 have Crew 3, standard is 4. Czech unit also has 3 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds.

Class 177 – Heavy MG Section

Switzerland 749 & 750 have FC & Rangefinder 0, standard is 1. They also have Size 0 (standard is 1), Crew 6 (standard is 8) and 4 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds.

Type 54 – China 212 has Crew 6, standard is 8.

Type 77 – China 213 has Crew 6 % Speed 5, standard is 4/4.

Richard H

Richard_H

November 21st, 2011, 08:46 AM

MG Part 3

Class 193 – MG Unit

Egypt 501 & 502 have Speed 4, standard for MMG is 5. They also have 4 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 3 crew.

USA 771, USMC 431 & 432, Gulf 461 & 462, ARVN 518, Pakistan 587 & 588, Cambodia 418, Chad 489 & Lebanon 337 have Speed 6, standard is 5.

France 269, Denmark 305-307 and Sweden 218 & 219 are Weight 1, Cyprus 132 & 133 are 3, standard is 0.

France 269 has 6 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 4 crew.

USA 771, E.Germany 209 and Cyprus 132 & 133 have FC & Rangefinder 0, standard is 1/1.

Ethiopia 201 & Eritrea 502 have Size 1, standard is 0. Other 4-man units also have Size 1, but these are AAMG, and presumably the mounting is larger.

Turkey 235 & 236 have RoF 3, France 270 & USA 771 have 8, standard is 9.

Denmark 305-307 again have a ‘man over’. However, Denmark 304 has a ‘man under’, ie a Crew of 7 where the standard is 8.

.30cal M1919 – Malaysia 89 has Speed 6, standard is 5.

FN-MAG – UK 185 & 186 and Malaysia 87 & 88 have Speed 6, standard is 5.

M2/M2HB – Italy 461 has Crew 2, standard is 4. It also has Size 1, standard is 0.

Maxim HMG – E.Germany 209 has Crew 3, standard is 4. It also has 3 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds.

PKM/PKMS – Russia 571 has Crew 2, Mozambique 487 has 4, standard is 3. Russian unit also has 2 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds.

SGM – Chad 487 has Speed 4, standard is 5.

Vickers HMG – UK 184 has Crew 7, standard is 6. May be a country thing, as GPMG sections are also 7 men.
Egypt 500 has 3 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 4 crew.

Vz.37 – Norway 181 has Crew 6 (standard is 8) and Speed 4 (standard is 5). It also has 6 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds.

zb.53 – Chile 576 has Crew 3, standard for a HMG is 4. It also has 3 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds.

Class 194 – MG Section

France 272 & 273, Mujahadeen 106 and Cyprus 308 are Weight 1, standard is 0.

NVA 360 & 361 and Albania 379 are Size 1, standard is 0.

Eritrea 507 has Crew 8, standard is 4.

Greece 357, 358 & 670, Angola 375, Cambodia 408, Sudan 163, Malaysia 563, Zimbabwe 390, Tanzania 365 and Uganda 365 & 366 have Speed 6, standard is 5.
Sudan 166 & Zimbabwe 394 have Speed 5, standard is 4.
Sudan 161 has Speed 4, standard is 5.

France 272 & 273 have 4 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 7 Crew.
Greece 360 & 361, Turkey 420-422 and Uruguay 480-482 have 6 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 4 Crew.

Class 254 – MG Team

Denmark 281 has Weight 1, standard is 0.

Richard H

Richard_H

November 21st, 2011, 08:48 AM

Mechanised Infantry.

Class 69 – Mechanised Infantry

Cyprus 190 & 191 overlap in time terms, but 1 has Crew 6, the other 10.
Indonesia 371 & 372, and 373 & 374, are similar, although with different numbers.

Poland 315, 320 & 324, Hungary 315, 319, 320 & 324, Green 375 and S.Africa 173 have 20 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 8 Crew.
Japan 201 has 22 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 8 Crew.
Iran 320 & 321 have 22 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 10 Crew.
Iraq 475 & 476, NVA 334-337 have 20 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 9 Crew.
Iraq 489 and Czech 315, 320 & 324 have 20 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 9 Crew.
Czech 330, 333, 337 & 344 have 16 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 9 Crew.
W.Germany 241 has 16 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 6 Crew.
W.Germany 252 has 16 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 7 Crew.
Thailand 130-132 have 18 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 8 Crew.

Class 70 – Heavy Mechanised Infantry

Russia 887-890 have 24 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 13 Crew.
W.Germany 230 has 18 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 8 Crew.
W.Germany 231 has 12 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 7 Crew.

Class 71 – Medium Mechanised Infantry

Czech 314, 321, 331, 338, 341, 347 & 349 have 10 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 7 Crew.
Hungary 325 & Saudi 384 have 10 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 9 Crew.

Class 72 – Light Mechanised Infantry

Poland has both 5-man and 9-man units available concurrently. The 9-man units (274 & 325) are template units, but are only available for part of the life of the formations (225 & 230).

Poland 274 is Size 0 for 9 Crew.

Poland 274 & 325 have 10 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 9 Crew.
France 277 has 8 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 5 Crew.
Denmark 427 has 20 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 6 Crew.
Czech 348, 355, 356, 358 & 359 have 10 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 7 Crew.
Saudi 365 has 10 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 6 Crew.

Class 73 – Mechanised Support Squad

Russia 319-321 & 718 have 30 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 8 Crew.

Richard H

Richard_H

November 21st, 2011, 08:54 AM

Marines. It may be that different size units in the same timeframe belong to different formations, something I haven't investigated. However, given that none of the units involved has a X3 radio code, I would think that both AI and human players can select what they want for whichever formation they purchase.

Class 110 – Marines

USMC – From 1/58 to 12/67, there are 4 14-man squads and 2 13-man (706 & 760), neither of which is a template unit. From 1/90 to 12/109, there are 3 13-man squads and 2 11-man (374 & 719), neither of which is a template unit. From 1/93 to 12/109, Unit 711 has 13 men, 721 has 11. Neither is a template unit.

S.Yemen 440-442 have Speed 7, all others have 6.

China 747 has 20 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 8 Crew.
S.Korea 350, 351 & 355 have 10 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 12 Crew.
Green 405 & 406 have 11 Weapon 3 and 11 Weapon 4 (both Hand Grenade) rounds for 10 Crew.
Switzerland 926-929 have 24 Weapon 2 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 7 Crew.
Thailand 140 has 18 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 11 Crew.
Thailand 141 & 142 have 18 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 11 Crew.
El Salvador 405 has 11 Weapon 2 and 11 Weapon 3 (both Hand Grenade) rounds for 10 Crew.
El Salvador 406 has 11 Weapon 3 and 11 Weapon 4 (both Hand Grenade) rounds for 10 Crew.
El Salvador 407 has 22 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 10 Crew.

Class 112 – Marine Light Infantry

Norway 285 & 652 represent different formations from 461-463, and are different sizes with overlapping dates.

USMC 784-795 & 810-821 have Size 1 and Crew 4.

ARVN 81-83 have Speed 7, all others have 6.

S.Korea 349, 354 & 358 have 10 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 12 Crew.

Class 113 – Marine Support

ARVN 80 has Size 1 and Crew 3.

S.Korea 353 has Speed 0, and 10 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 12 Crew.

Italy 408-411 have Speed 3 and 9 Crew, and overlap time-wise with 412-414, which have 4/10.

Class 240 – Marine Heavy Infantry

Poland 284 & 285 have Size 0 and 6 Crew.

China 345 has 20 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 12 Crew. All other Chinese units have 10 Crew.

Richard H

Richard_H

November 21st, 2011, 08:55 AM

I'm prepared for flak on that last one;)

Richard H

Richard_H

November 21st, 2011, 08:56 AM

Militia classes.

Class 189 – Militia

Jordan 490-492 have Speed 5, standard is 6.

Red 99-104 are the only units with a Swim capability.

China 340-343 have RoF 8, others have 9.

Sudan 420-422 have 50 Weapon 1 rounds, ARVN 371 has 100, standard is 70 or 80.

China 340 has 10 Weapon 2 (Hand Grenade) rounds, and 12 Crew.
Iraq 760 & 761 have 20 Weapon 2 (Hand Grenade) rounds for crews of 8 & 6 respectively.
Sudan 420-422 have 5 Weapon 2 (Hand Grenade) rounds, and 5 crew.

Iraq 762 & 763 have 20 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for crews of 8 & 6 respectively.

Class 190 – Light Militia

Mozambique 117-124 have Size 0 for 5 Crew.

Iran 346 has 5 Weapon 2 (Hand Grenade) rounds, and 10 Crew.

Poland 870 & 871 have 20 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds, and 11 Crew.
Bosnia 103 has 3 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds and 6 Crew.

Class 191 – Heavy Militia

Eritrea 490 has Speed 7, all others have 6.

Class 192 – Militia Support

Mujahadeen 425-431 have Size 0 and 5 Crew.

Richard H

Richard_H

November 21st, 2011, 08:58 AM

Mixed bag of infantry classes.

Class 75 – Irregulars

Mujahadeen 415-417 have Load Cost 25, standard (also for Dismounted Cavalry in other classes) is 0. They are also Size 2, for Crew 8, and have 20 Weapon 3 (415 & 417) or 4 (416, all Hand Grenades) rounds for 8 Crew.

UN 368 are Size 3, for Crew 12.

Afghan 345 has 6 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 10 Crew.
Green 477 & Red 298 have 10 Weapon 2 (Hand Grenade) rounds, for 9 Crew.
Green 471, 473 & 476 and Red 292, 294 & 297 have 10 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 9 Crew.

Class 76 - Partisans

Poland 887 & 888 have 20 Weapon 2 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 12 Crew.

Class 77 – Partisan Support

ARVN 578 have Speed 4. May be for the MMG in Weapon slot 2? In which case, the standard is 5. But with the mortar in slot 3? Interesting call.

Poland 889 has 20 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 8 Crew.

Class 79 – Natives

ARVN 544 & 545 have Speed 7, 577 & 579 have 6.

Class 117 – Legionnaires

France 356 overlaps time-wise with 355, but has 5 Crew rather than 10. It is not a template unit.

Poland 879-881 have 20 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 8 Crew.

Class 178 – Police

ARVN 74 has Crew 3, Size 1.
S.Africa 395 & 396 and UN 326-329 have Crew 4, Size 1.

Poland 878 & 884 have 20 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 8 Crew.

Class 230 – Guerillas

Nicaragua 483-489 have Speed 7, all other Nicaraguan units of this class have 6.

Lebanon 490 has 10 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 6 Crew.
Viet Cong 347-351, 353, 358 & 359 have 16 Weapon 2 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 9 Crew.
Viet Cong 352, 354-356 & 359 have 16 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 9 Crew.

Class 231 – Light Guerillas

Iraq 769 has 8 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 5 Crew.
Sudan 612 has 8 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 5 Crew.

The next one might be a while - I've hit Class 1!

Richard H

Suhiir

November 21st, 2011, 10:22 AM

I’ve noticed that speeds for MMGs/GPMGs are either 5 (222 units) or 6 (40 units)...

From my "reading" of this it's not so much encumbrance as set-up time.
MMG's usually require you to set up a tripod, mount the weapon on it, load a belt of ammo, and perhaps attach a T&E (traverse and elevation mechanism).
Then again MG units can't move-an-fire... However a player can fire, move-a-hex (or two), and next turn it's ready to fire again at the so perhaps the combo of move speed and no fire-an-move is needed.

My 2 cents

Suhiir

November 21st, 2011, 11:03 AM

Class 110 – Marines

USMC – From 1/58 to 12/67, there are 4 14-man squads and 2 13-man (706 & 760), neither of which is a template unit. From 1/90 to 12/109, there are 3 13-man squads and 2 11-man (374 & 719), neither of which is a template unit. From 1/93 to 12/109, Unit 711 has 13 men, 721 has 11. Neither is a template unit.

This one I can speak on with a certain amount of authority...and perhaps help explain why some of the anomalies aren't.

In about 1958 the USA started swapping from the venerable M1 Garand to the M14 rifle.
In about 1962 the M79 40mm grenade launcher was adopted.
In about 1968 the M16 rifle was adopted by the USMC (the Army got it in 1965ish).
In about 1972 the M203 40mm grenade launcher was adopted.

The traditional USMC squad has been 13-man since the last part of WW II - BUT - the inclusion of the M79 ment they added a 14th man, the grenadier.

Rather then having:
1/58-12/61 13 man with M14's
1/62-12/67 14 man with M14's and M79 (actually valid till 1970)
1/68-12/71 14 man with M16's and M79
1/72-now 13 man with M16's and M203's

They simply combined the adoption of the M14, M79, and 14-man squad in 1958 and back to 13-man on 1968. Thus you have both 13 and 14-man squads during this period.

In 1993 they started using the MRAP (Mine Resistant Ambush Protected) trucks but they can only carry 11 passengers so an 11-man vice the normal 13-man squad was created to fit in these vehicles (for my OOB variant I just made the MRAP 13 passenger).

The reason none of these are template units is they're all a "standard" USMC Rifle Squad, so the 1/46 squad is the template for virtually every formation.

Class 112 – Marine Light Infantry

USMC 784-795 & 810-821 have Size 1 and Crew 4.

This unit is used for the USMC Fire Team (3 per squad plus the squad leader = 13-men (+1 for 14 if they have an M79) rather then a crew or crew served weapon as is normally the case with 4-man units. Thus they are not given the defensive and other advantages of a size zero unit.

Mobhack

November 21st, 2011, 04:24 PM

Yep - just because a line infantry element is ~4 men does not necessarily mean that it gets the size 0 bonus. That is usually reserved for scouts (ie those who don't want to shoot, as a rule). An "assault" team of 4-5 that is primarily there to jump off their Spartans and fight might not have it since they are not in the "stealth" business. (Forex, USSR units #346-348 should be size 1 as they are such, not recce).

But there will be variations to the design guidelines all over the place - since they are that, not laws. In the end it is up to the OOB designer to design his OOB, and for the points calculator to decide each element's worth.

So - OOB designer Bloggs may decide that in his Rastafarian OOB, a 2xgun SFMG section element(used in one formation) will have speed 5, and the singleton SFMG element used in inf coy HQ support platoon will have speed 6 to keep up with the grunts - maybe there are more men in the singleton, to carry the bits faster.

For most things, it is neither here nor there if the 81mm mortar crews (forex) have one or two variation in crew from the guideline, or whatever. All provided they fit in the supplied transports, of course :)!. A couple more men means they may survive longer if subject to C/B fire, and will cost a point or two more than in some other OOB.

OOB designers do not produce blow-by-blow design documents (Those were usual in SP1 days when there were only about, what?, 100 possible units in a national OOB - and some like the Romanians had less since they shared an OOB file with someone). We do have replies in deeply buried emails from folks who did their OOB their way, but it's difficult to keep track of. However, the old line by line essay that you got in SP1 days is long gone, since quite frankly it would be a complete PITA to keep in synch if (say) we published such a tome for each and every OOB.

We have been bitten several times back in the days when we had OOB design teams of volunteers, when some of these went through the OOB set "rationalising" things and "applying the rulez" in a rigid and formulaic mechanistic manner. (Like reducing the carry capacity of the M321X APC in the Rasta OOB to 11 because "that was what all the others are"- but the OOB designer had deliberately upped it to cater for the one 12 man squad available 1957-59 without having to jump through hoops with different formations).

Adjusting the carry of APCs is quite allowable, especially if it saves umpteen new formations and a rewritten pick list etc.

So - a run through like this is fine, as a pointer to things that look like they may need investigating. We will look at these reports, and decide whether or not the points are valid or not to need fixing. But please do not expect a blow-by-blow return replying to each and every line item, and whether or not we decided to fix it as suggested.

Cheers
Andy

Richard_H

November 21st, 2011, 06:14 PM

Utter standardisation of everything is the last thing on my mind (remember what I was like a few years back about "spotter plane syndrome"? :))) There will be far too many people out there, with individual country knowledge that is far greater than mine, who have made individual adjustments/variations for very good reasons, The problem with the approach I've adopted is that it will most likely pick up the difference but not, of course, why it's occurred. That's why input like Suhiir's is so valuable.

This is why I deliberately called the thread "anomaly reports". An anomaly isn't an error, it's just something different from the norm, for whatever reason. I did suggest the odd change earlier on, if only because some things seem obvious when looking at raw data. But I'm trying now to stick to the provision of information, pure & simple.

Andy, thanks for the encouragement, I'll see the exercise through (there are times I wonder what started it off & whatever it was, can I kill it? :>)))) I certainly don't expect a line-by-line response - if the whole exercise only throws up a couple of "needs fixing" to improve an already superb game, it's been worth it.

Richard H

Mobhack

November 21st, 2011, 08:26 PM

If you feel up to the task - then by all means carry on...

Remember to knock off at beer o'clock :beer: from time to time though!.

If it finds a few items, then it'll be worth the while.

Cheers
Andy

Richard_H

November 22nd, 2011, 07:13 AM

Lol - yes there are days when I wonder why the hell I started, but to be honest, a discipline like this prevents beer o'clock from starting waaay too early! It's one of the problems of being retired on a small island (Malta), there isn't a whole load to keep one occupied. I know, it's still nearly 70 degrees & there's always the sea to watch, where's the problem? :)

Onwards and upwards - infantry.

Class 1 – Infantry

France 126 has 20 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 11 Crew.
China 286 & 314-319 have 20 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 12 Crew.
Dare I mention the ‘C’ word? Canada 81, 82, 85 & 86 have 20 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 8 Crew.
Denmark 253 has 20 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 8 Crew.
W.Germany 225, 226, 462 & 463 have 18 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 8 Crew.
S.Africa 43 has 10 Weapon 3 & 10 Weapon 4 (both Hand Grenade) rounds for 11 Crew.
Croatia 66 has 10 Weapon 2 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 7 Crew.
Nigeria 410 has 9 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 10 Crew.
Sweden 98 & 103 have 9 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 8 Crew.
Kenya 402-405 have 10 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 8 Crew.

Belgium 94 (Crew 10) runs concurrently with 95 (Crew 8). Neither is a template unit, nor are they X3 radio coded.
Algeria 362 (Crew 10) runs until 12/74. Other Algerian units have Crew 8 from 1/69. It is a template unit, but only for formations running to 12/68.

Class 40 – Heavy Infantry

Switzerland 295-297 have Speed 7, all others have 6.

China 635 & 636 have 4 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 3 Crew.
NVA 116-118 have 10 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 9 Crew.
Canada 64 & 65 have 16 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 10 Crew.
Denmark 264 and E.Germany 98-100 have 20 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 8 Crew.
Switzerland 119 has 16 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 11 Crew.
Switzerland 120, 302-308 & 519 have 16 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 11 Crew.

Poland 323 (Crew 10) runs until 12/87. Other Polish units have Crew 8 from 1/80. It is not a template or X3-coded unit.
Czech 323 is similar to Poland 323.
Switzerland 295-298 are 9-man, non-template units that run concurrently with some of the other 11-man units.

Richard H

Richard_H

November 22nd, 2011, 07:15 AM

More infantry

Class 51 – Light Infantry

Afghanistan 415-417 and Ethiopia 417 have Load Cost 25, others have 0. They are also Size 2 and have Sound 222, even though they are dismounted.

Afghanistan 415 & 417 and Denmark 262 have 20 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 8 Crew.
Afghanistan 416 has 20 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 8 Crew.
Netherlands 205 & 206 have 12 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 5 Crew.
Netherlands 207 has 8 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 5 Crew.
Canada 92, 93, 96 & 97 have 14 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 8 Crew.
Canada 94 & 98 have 20 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 8 Crew.
W.Germany 216 & 218 have 16 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 6 Crew.
W.Germany 214 & 215 have 16 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 7 Crew.
W.Germany 212 has 18 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 8 Crew.
Austria 200 has 5 Weapon 2 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 10 Crew.
Viet Cong 265 has 20 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 9 Crew.

Class 55 – HQ

Viet Cong 244 & 245 have 4 Weapon 2 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 6 Crew.

Japan 245 and Switzerland 244 & 245 also have ‘odd numbers’ of grenades but along with Switzerland 243, they are the only units to carry a third weapon. From what has been done with the Swiss oob, I suspect detailed in-country knowledge.

Class 64 – Medium Infantry

Nigeria 565 & 566 have Speed 7, all others have 6.

ARVN 215 has 20 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 9 Crew.
Canada 104 has 14 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 8 Crew.
Denmark 263 has 20 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 8 Crew.
W.Germany 600-603 have 18 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 10 Crew.

Nigeria has 2 9-man (565 & 566) and 2 3-man (462 & 463) units running concurrently. 565 is a template unit, but none is X3 coded. A human will know which to pick for the different formations, but what about the AI?

Class 65 – LMG Section

China 350-355 have Speed 5, all others have 6 (even with 2 LMG & 4 Crew).

China 350-355, Cuba 540-543 and Rhodesia 24 have FC and Rangefinder 1, all others have 0/0. My understanding is that this only applies to MMG & HMG.

Richard H

Richard_H

November 22nd, 2011, 07:16 AM

Yet more infantry.

Class 66 – SMG Section

Norway 182 has Load Cost 1, all others have 0. It also has Speed 5, others have 6 or 7.

Class 67 – Rifle Section

Algeria 352 (Crew 10) runs partly concurrently with 353 (Crew 8). The units are similarly armed, although they have different radio chances.

Class 160 – Reserve Infantry

Poland 882 & 883 have 10 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 12 Crew.
China 424-426 have 20 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 12 Crew.
N.Korea 360-364 and Cambodia 360 & 362 have 12 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 9 Crew.
Taiwan 330 has 24 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 10 Crew.
Canada 436 & 437 have 10 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 8 Crew.
Yugoslavia 84 has 10 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 7 Crew.
Sweden 480 has 4 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 12 Crew. Postwar rationing maybe.
Sweden 481 & 483 have 10 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 12 Crew.

Yugoslavia 86 (Crew 10) runs until 12/65, partly concurrently with 2 7-man units (84 & 87). It is not a template unit, and is not X3 coded.

Class 161 – Reserve Support

Norway 169-172 have Speed 5, all others have 6.

Class 226 – COIN Heavy Infantry

Rhodesia 30 has Speed 8, standard is 6 or 7. It also has 10 men, and runs concurrently with 190 & 191, which are both 5-man units. None of them is X3-coded.

Richard H

Richard_H

November 23rd, 2011, 01:15 PM

Class 2 – Infantry AT

57mm M18 RCL – Green 102 is Size 1, all others are 0.
France 113, Green 102 & Thailand 70 have Crew 3, Mujahadeen 174 has 4, all others have 2. Green 102 also has 3 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds.
Lebanon 117 has Speed 4, all others have 6.
Mujahadeen 174 has Load Cost 1, all others have 0.
Brazil 102 & Thailand 70 have FC & Rangefinder 1, all others have 0/0.

75mm M20 RCL – Japan 143, Green 103, Chile 103, Lebanon 118 and Indonesia 105 & 107 are Size 1, which leaves a small majority as Size 0. Having used one of these in the Obong-Ni Ridge scenario, I’d want to be Size 0!
Green 103 has Crew 3, France 114 & Mujahadeen 176 have 4, all others have 2.
Lebanon 118 has Speed 3, all others have 6.
Mujahadeen 176 has Load Cost 1, Viet Cong 63 (Type 56) has 2, all others have 0.
Brazil 103 has FC & Rangefinder 1, all others have 0/0.

90mm M67 RCL – Green 104 has Size 1 & Crew 3, Mujahadeen 179 has Crew 4, all others have 0/2.
Mujahadeen 179 has Load Cost 1, all others have 0.
Portugal 72 has FC & Rangefinder 1, all others have 0/0.

Alcotan 100 – Spain 472 has a typo, the weapon has the correct name.

Apilas – Taiwan 484 has FC & Rangefinder 0/0, others have 3/1.

AT-3 Sagger – Viet Cong 69 has FC & Rangefinder 1, others have 0/0.

AT4 LAW – UK 236 has RoF 6, all others have 7.

B-10 82mm RCL – Mujahadeen 177 has Crew 4, all others have 2.
Uganda 111 has Speed 4, all others have 6.
Mujahadeen 177 & Eritrea 111 have Load Cost 1, all others have 0.

Boyes ATR – Sudan 320 has Size 1, all others have 0.

Carl Gustav 84mm – Green 108 has Crew 3, all others have 2.
Denmark 315 & 316 have Load Cost 1, all others have 0. They also have FC 1 and Rangefinder 1 (see below).
W.Germany 199 and Malaysia 183 & 184 have FC & Rangefinder 1, India 306 & 307, S.Yemen 323 & 324 and N.Yemen 325 have 2, all others have 0/0.
Spain 471, Italy 449 & Austria 60 have RoF 6, all others have 7.

Dragon ATGM – Iran 379 has Load Cost 1, all others have 0.

Instalaza M65 – Uruguay 97 has RoF 6, all others have 7.

LAW-80 – UK 223 has RoF 6, others (in other classes) have 7.

LRAC F1 – Cyprus 215 has RoF 6, all others have 7.

M9/M9A1 Bazooka – Mujahadeen 172 has Crew 4, all others have 2.
Indonesia 100 has Load Cost 1, all others have 0.
Egypt 107 & ARVN 200 have RoF 6, others have 7.

M20 Super Bazooka – Mujahadeen 173 has 4 Crew, Gulf 321 has 3, all others have 2.
Denmark 311 and Indonesia 101 & 102 have Load Cost 1, all others have 0.

M72 LAW – Green 105 has Crew 3, Nigeria 111 has 4, all others have 2.
Nigeria 498 has Speed 4, all others have 6.
Denmark 312 & 313 have Load Cost 1, all others have 0.

M79 Osa – Yugoslavia 208 has Size 0, Croatia 208 has Size 1.

Metis ATGW – Chechnya 21 & 22 have Crew 3, all others have 2.

Milan – Belgium 77 & 78 have Speed 5, all others have 6. They also have RoF 5, all others have 4.

Panzerfaust 3 – Japan 153 has Crew 3 & Speed 4, all others have 2/6.
Japan 153 has RoF 4, Netherlands 186, S.Korea 484 & Italy 448 have 7, all others have 6.

Panzerfaust 44 – W.Germany 205 has RoF 6, Italy 447 has 7.

Panzerschreck – Romania 290 has Crew 2 & Speed 6, Bulgaria 280 has Crew 3 & Speed 7. Standard from WW2 appears to be the same as the Romanian figures.

PIAT – Denmark 310 has Crew 3, Malaysia 180 has 4, all others have 2. Denmark 310 also has Load Cost 1, all others have 0.
Egypt 106 & Jordan 178 have RoF 6, all others have 7.

PTRD ATR – Mujahadeen 169 has Crew 3, all others have 2.

RPG-2 – Red 22 has Crew 3, all others have 2. It also has 6 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds.
Mozambique 463 has RoF 8, all others have 7.

RPG-7 – Green 106, Red 24 & Chechnya 18 have Crew 3, Afghanistan 177 has 4, all others have 2. Red 24 & Chechnya 18 also have 6 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds.
Indonesia 103 & Rhodesia 100 have Load Cost 1, all others have 0.
S.Africa 56 & 57 have RoF 9, Mozambique 485 has 8, all others have 7.
Mozambique 485 has 50 AP rounds for Weapon 1 (RPG), standard loadout is 6 HEAT.
PLO 151 (Nader) has Speed 5 & RoF 6, all others have 6/7.

RPG-7V – Czech 212 is Size 1, all others 0.
Green 107, Red 27 & Chechnya 20 have 3 Crew, Mujahadeen 181 & Afghan 178 have 4, all others have 2. Red 27 & Chechnya 20 also have 6 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds.
E.Germany 475, Green 107, Cuba 104 & Nicaragua 104 have RoF 7, all others have 6.

RPG-16 – Mujahadeen 168 & Afghanistan 179 have Crew 4, others have 2.

RPG-18 – Afghanistan 180 has Crew 4, all others have 2.
Syria 218 & Greece 202 have RoF 6, standard for a RPG is 7.

Saghegh RPG – PLO 150 has RoF 6, others have 7.

SPG-9 – Mujahadeen 175 has Crew 4, all others have 2. It also has Load Cost, FC & Rangefinder 1, others have 0/0/0.

Type 56 RPG – Cambodia 287 has Crew 3, all others have 2.

Type 69 RPG – Cambodia 288 has Crew 3, all others have 2.

Richard H

Richard_H

November 23rd, 2011, 01:16 PM

More infantry AT in various guises.

Class 142 – Para Infantry AT

All the UK (386, 387, 392-399, 402, 410) and Thai (402-407) units have a Swim Speed. I’m not sure I’d fancy a dip with 15 kilos of Vigilant on my back . . . . . .

UK 392-399 have 3 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds with 2 Crew.

Israel 530 and Indonesian units (542-545) have Load Cost 1, all others have 0.

Belgium 544 has 10 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 4 Crew.

57mm M18 RCL – France 316 has Crew 3, standard is 2. It also has 3 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds.

75mm M20 RCL – France 317 has Crew 4, standard is 2.

AT-4 Fagot – Russia 693 has Crew 2, standard is 3.

Blindicide 83mm – Belgium 546 has Crew 4, standard is 2.

Carl Gustav – UK 396 & 397 and Malaysia 360 & 361 have RoF 6, standard is 7.

Dragon ATGW – Thailand 406 & 407 have Size 0 & RoF 9, standards are 1/4.

Javelin – UK 386 has Size 1, others have 0.
Australia 500 has RoF 9, standard is 4.

M9/M9A1 Bazooka – Egypt 221 & Indonesia 543 have RoF 6, standard is 7.

M20 Super Bazooka – Israel 525 & Thailand 403 have Crew 3, Belgium 545 has 4, standard is 2.
Thailand 403 has RoF 9, Indonesia 542 & 544 have 6, standard is 7.
Thailand 403 has 9 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds.

M72 LAW – Thailand 404 & 405 have Crew 3, standard is 2. They also have RoF 9 (standard is 7) and 9 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds
Argentina 488 has 3 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 2 Crew.

Metis ATGW – E.Germany 473 has Crew 3, standard is 2. It also has 6 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds.

Milan – Belgium 547 & 548 have Speed 5 & RoF 5, standard is 6/4. They also have 8 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 3 Crew.

RPG-2 – Russia 456 has RoF 4, standard is 7.

RPG-7 – Russia 457 has RoF 4, standard is 7.

RPG-7V – Russia 458 has RoF 4, E.Germany 472 has 7, standard is 6.

RPG-16 – Ukraine 463 has Crew 3, standard is 2.

Spike – Israel 530 has 2 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 3 Crew.

Class 146 – Commando Infantry AT

Belgium 504 has 10 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 4 Crew.

Javelin – Australia 527 has RoF 9, standard is 4.

M9/M9A1 Bazooka – Norway 438 has Crew 4, standard is 2.

M20 Bazooka – USA 966 has RoF 6, standard is 7.

Molotov – Green 590 has RoF 6, other Molotov teams (in other classes) have 9.

RPG-7V – E.Germany 469 has RoF 7, standard is 6.

Class 165 – Ski Infantry AT

France 382-384 & 402 have RoF 9, standard for all is 7.

Carl Gustav 84mm – Sweden 169 has Crew 3, Sweden 170-173 have 4, standard is 2.

M79 Osa – Croatia 210 has Size 1, standard in other classes is 0.

PIAT – Norway 440 has Crew 3, standard is 2.

Satchel Charge – Sweden 148 has RoF 9, standard in other classes is 4.

Richard H

Richard_H

November 23rd, 2011, 01:17 PM

Infantry RCL Teams.

Class 208 – Infantry RR Team

India 316, Cyprus 211, Saudi 330-332 & Bulgaria 289-291 have Size 1, standard for all is 0.

Angola 540 & 541, Saudi 330-332, S.Yemen 330 & 331 and Bulgaria 290 have Load Cost 1, standard for all is 0.

Czech 373, S.Yemen 330 & 331, Rhodesia 205 & Tanzania 100 have FC & Rangefinder 1/1, Tanzania 101 has 2/2, standard for all is 0/0.

57mm M18 – Cambodia 68 & Saudi 330 have Crew 3, Iran 440 & USMC 72 have 4, all others have 2.
Iran 440 & Norway 49 have Speed 4, all others have 6.

75mm M20 – Rhodesia 205 has Crew 3, Iran 441 & USMC 73 have 4, all others have 2.
Rhodesia 205 has Speed 3, Tanzania 100 has 4, all others have 6.
Type 56 derivative – NVA 445, Pakistan 311 & Sudan 330 have Crew 2, China 69, N.Korea 71 and Cambodia 70 & 71 have 4.

90mm M67 – Iran 442 has Crew 4, all others have 2.

B-10 – Poland 68 & Bulgaria 289 have Crew 3, Russia 586, N.Korea 68, Angola 541 & S.Yemen 331 have 4, all others have 2.
S.Yemen 331 has Speed 3, all others have 6.
Derivatives – China 70 & 71 and Tanzania 101 have Crew 4, Sudan 331 has 2.

Nader – Iran 443 has RoF 6, standard is 7.

PF-98 – China 72 has Crew 4, China 396 (Class 2) has 2.

SPG-9 – Poland 70, Russia 587, S.Yemen 330 and Bulgaria 290 & 291 have Crew 3, N.Korea 70 and Angola 540 have 4, all others have 2.
Russia 587 & S.Yemen 330 have Speed 4, all others have 6.

SPG-82 – Czech 373 has Speed 3, all others have 6.

Class 209 = Para RR Team

USA 267-269 have Crew 3, standard for all is 2.

SPG-9 – Russia 474 and Hungary 486 & 487 have Crew 3, standard is 2.
Poland 486 & Russia 474 have Speed 4, standard is 6.

Pats

November 23rd, 2011, 04:06 PM

Switzerland 295-297 have Speed 7, all others have 6.

Richard H

Agree, should be speed 6 (typo)

Richard_H

November 24th, 2011, 04:56 PM

Helicopters - eek! Given the number of different marks of a helo like the UH-1, there is plenty of potential here for slipping on a banana skin. I have therefore tried not to highlight small variations in speed (some smart ground crew person will always try & squeeze the odd knot or 2), carry capacity etc. I have indicated units where there are differences in capabilities that have a 1-6 range (survivability, stabilisers etc), or where the majority of similar units says one thing and the 'odd man/men out' say different.

Class 53 – Helicopter. By country of manufacturer, then alphabetically by manufacturer, and then by year of manufacture.

Aerospatiale SA.330 Puma – Gulf 562, Turkey 501 & Peru 530 have Survivability 4, Ethiopia 122 has 0, others have 3.
France 517, UK 574, Pakistan 420, Romania 124 and Brazil 122 have Stabiliser 0, even though they are armed.

AS.332 Super Puma – Gulf 566, Greece 519, Argentina 533 & Thailand 498 have Survivability 4, which leaves a narrow majority with 3.
Gulf 566 has Stabiliser 0, standard for armed versions is 4.
Indonesia 120 has ‘Steel HF’ 10, standard is 12.

AS.532 Cougar – Greece 520 has Speed 86, standard is 93 or 108. It also has ‘Steel HF’ 10, all others have 12.
Jordan 109, Green 124, Brazil 123 and Saudi 532 have Survivability 3, others have 4.
France 516, Netherlands 514, Turkey 502 and Brazil 123 have Stabiliser 0, Jordan 109 has 2, standard is 4.
France 516 & 519, Netherlands 514 and Turkey 502 have ‘Steel HF’ 10. Standard even for the AS.332 is 12, and the Cougar is a developed version.
Albania 132 is called “AS-350B2”, which relates to the Ecureuil light helo; however, the stats and .lbm are those of the Cougar. According to SIPRA, 5 AS.532 Cougars were delivered in 2009. Dates for the unit are 1/79 – 12/105; these dates are covered by other units in the oob.
Conversely, Cambodia 123 also has the stats and .lbm of an AS.532, although it is also called “AS-350”. Again according to SIPRA, Cambodia has had no Pumas of any mark, but 2 AS.350 Ecureuils were probably delivered in 1993. In the game, all AS.350 are classed as Light Helos; this would not affect Cambodian formations.

EH-101 Merlin – Portugal 281 has Stabiliser 0, standard for armed versions is 3.

Agusta A.109 – Sweden 586 has Size 3, standard (in Class 204) is 2. It also has Speed 94 (standard is 104) and Steel HF 4 (standard is 9).

Mil Mi-1 – Mujahadeen 116 is Size 3, standard (in Class 204) is 2. It also has Speed 76 (standard is 67) and Survivability 3 (standard is 1).

Mil Mi-4 (and derivatives) – Russia 312 has Survivability 0, standard is 4.
NVA 226 has FC 4, Rangefinder 4 and Stabiliser 2, although it is unarmed.
Cuba 130 has Stabiliser 2, although unarmed.
Finland 146 has Stabiliser 0, Uganda 136 has 3, standard for armed versions is 2.
China 115 has ‘Steel HF’ 4, Green 125 has 5, standard is 6.

Mil Mi-8 – Russia 315-318 & 355 have Survivability 0, standard is 4.
Finland 145 has Stabiliser 0, standard for armed versions is 4.

Mil Mi-17 – PLO 232 has Stabiliser 2, Czech 117 has 0, standard is 4.

Mil Mi-2 - Figures are correct.

Mil Mi-14 – Poland 968 has Swim Speed 1, one of only 2 helicopters to have this ability. I’m dubious, if only because helicopters don’t taxi in the same way as fixed-wing aircraft and although the Mi-14 is built to land on water, I have never seen either a photo or a report to suggest that it can move on it in a controlled manner. It also has ‘Steel HS’ 0, standard is 1.

Westland Wessex – Iraq 112, Nigeria 131, S.Yemen 115 & Uruguay 277 have Survivability 4, others have 3.

Westland Lynx – UK 573 & 576 have Stabiliser 0, even though armed. Standard for the armed version is 5.

Bell 204/205 Series – Norway 254 & 255 have Survivability 2, Israel 262, Iran 270, Netherlands 506 & W.Germany 332 have 3, standard is 4.
Of the armed versions, Jordan 107, China 119, Netherlands 506, Turkey 494 & 495, Spain 503 & W.Germany 332 have Stabiliser 2; Greece 507 & 515, Austria 117, Uruguay 285 & Paraguay 288 have 4, standard is 3.
Iran 270 and Canada 412 & 413 have Stabiliser 0, although all are armed.
Cambodia 117, Chile 122 & Peru 117 have Stabiliser 3, Israel 262 has 2, although all are unarmed.
Jordan 107, Iran 270, S.Korea 105 & 107, Taiwan 107, Norway 254 & 255, Spain 503, Ethiopia 110 & 112 and Lebanon 137 & 138 have ‘Steel HF’ 4, standard is 6.
Just a small suggestion: Japan 351, Iran 270, S.Korea 105, Spain 503, Chile 122 and Indonesia 125 (covering various marks) all have Speed 80, which equates to 150 mph. My sources (‘Aircraft of the USAF’ in the Putnam series, various Janes editions etc) suggest that 138 mph is about top whack for a standard Huey, which equates to Speed 75, which is pretty much an average in the game.

Bell 212 – Israel 264, Iran 272 & Norway 590 have Survivability 3, others have 4.
Sweden 585 has Speed 75, standard is 83-86. It also has ‘Steel HF’ 0, standard is 6.

Bell 214 – Norway 591 & Peru 532 have Speed 99, all others have 90.
Iran 273, Thailand 503 and Ecuador 517 have Stabiliser 4, standard for the ‘family’ is 3. They also have ‘Steel HF’ 7, standard is 6.

Bell 412 – Cyprus 150, Brazil 119, Chile 120 & Indonesia 272 have Speed 62, standard is 87.
Norway 256 has Survivability 3, Netherlands 509 has 5, all others have 4.
Netherlands 509 has Stabiliser 2, all other armed versions have 3.
Green 120, Nigeria 135, Finland 148, Zimbabwe 116, Eritrea 127 and Uganda 147 & 148 have RoF 6, standard for MG-armed helos is 9.
Norway 256 has ‘Steel HF’ 4, the 4 with Speed 62 have 8 (maybe the reason for the reduced speed?), all others have 6.

Boeing-Vertol CH-47 Chinook – Taiwan 108 & 109, Netherlands 513 & Turkey 513 have Speed 88, standard is 100.
Netherlands 513 & Turkey 513 have Stabiliser 4, although unarmed.

Sikorsky S-55/H-19/Westland Whirlwind – There is a narrow majority (15:14) with Size 3. The H-19 is a similar size to the SA.330 Puma (slightly larger main rotor, slightly shorter body), all of which are Size 3.
The Size 4 units are:- Israel 260, France 502, UK 528, USA 288, Taiwan 105, Pakistan 399, Belgium 200, Canada 408, Greece 511, Turkey 493, Yugoslavia 120, Chile 121, Nigeria 130 & Malaysia 320.
Austria 119 & Ecuador 124 have Stabiliser 4 (they are unarmed), all others have 0.
Survivability is mixed, to say the least. Israel 260, Taiwan 105, ARVN 85, Pakistan 399, Belgium 200, Greece 511, Turkey 493, Thailand 495 & Cambodia 120 have 2; France 502, UK 528, Jordan 105, Iran 260, USA 288, USMC 158, Canada 408, Denmark 115, Brazil 116, Chile 121, Nigeria 130 & Malaysia 320 have 3; Japan 344, Yugoslavia 120, Green 118, Argentina 528, Austria 119, Thailand 494, Indonesia 116 & Ecuador 124 have 4.
Likewise, the Steel HF figure is very variable:- Israel 260, France 502, Taiwan 105, Pakistan 399, Belgium 200, Greece 511, Turkey 493 & Thailand 495 have 3; Green 118, Austria 119 & Ecuador 124 have 4; Japan 344 & Jordan 105 have 6; UK 528, Canada 408, Yugoslavia 120, Nigeria 130 & Malaysia 320 have 8; Iran 260 & Denmark 115 have 10, and the remainder have 5.
I’d be tempted to go for Survivability 3 & HF 5, as the H-34 standard is 3/6.

Sikorsky S-58/H-34 – Sudan 111 is Size 3, all others are 4. It also has Stabiliser 2, although unarmed.
Iran 268, Taiwan 104, Pakistan 407, Belgium 201 and W.Germany 325 & 326 have Survivability 2, Italy 491 has 4, standard is 3.
Netherlands 508 has Stabiliser 0, although it is armed.
Iran 268, Thailand 496 & 497, Chad 226 & Uruguay 275 have ‘Steel HF’ 5, Sudan 111 has 4, standard is 6.

Sikorsky S-61/Westland Sea King – UK 532, 536 & 575 have Survivability 3, all others have 4.
UK 575 has Stabiliser 0, standard for the armed version is 4.
Belgium 199 has Stabiliser 4, although unarmed.
UK 532 & Malaysia 324 have ‘Steel HF’ 12, standard is 14.

Sikorsky UH-60/S-70 – Turkey 496, 499 & 500 have Speed 80, standard is 99.
Argentina 536 has Lift Capacity 114, all others have 214.
Gulf 568 and S.Korea 111 & 112 have Stabiliser 2, Israel 265 has 3, standard is 4.
Israel 265 & Brazil 124 have Armour 10/2/2/2/2/2/0, Green 119 & Brazil 125 have 12/4/2/2/2/2/0 – I didn’t think this worked with helicopters.
Chile 128 has Armour 12/4, standard is 10/2.

Vertol H 21 – France 510 is listed as this, although it has most of the stats of a CH-34. France had both types, so it’s an interesting one. Every other H-21 in the game is Heavy Helo class and has a Steel HF figure of 12 (this unit has 5). The relevant formations in the oob are covered by other units.

Richard H

Pibwl

November 24th, 2011, 07:10 PM

Mil Mi-1 – Mujahadeen 116 is Size 3, standard (in Class 204) is 2. It also has Speed 76 (standard is 67) and Survivability 3 (standard is 1).

It's overstated anyway. Russian and Polish sources all say max speed was 170 km/h - some 57.

Mil Mi-14 – Poland 968 has Swim Speed 1, one of only 2 helicopters to have this ability. I’m dubious, if only because helicopters don’t taxi in the same way as fixed-wing aircraft and although the Mi-14 is built to land on water, I have never seen either a photo or a report to suggest that it can move on it in a controlled manner.

You're probably right. Besides, this unit is of dubious use - it's specialized ASW or SAR helicopter, not seen upon land normally - and it shouldn't be armed with anything but torpedoes (it has 12.7 DShK)

Michal

Suhiir

November 24th, 2011, 08:24 PM

Just to complicate your life you when doing your comparisons keep in mind :
Bell 204 = UH-1B
Bell 205 = UH-1H
Bell 212 = UH-1N
Bell 214 = Variant on the Bell 205 with larger engine
Bell 412 = Bell 212 with 4-blade (i.e. Canadian Bell CH-146 Griffon)
S-61 = SH-3 Sea King

Richard_H

November 25th, 2011, 11:12 AM

@ Suhiir - yeah thanks, complications are always fun:D

Class 203 – Attack Helicopter

81 helicopters in this class have ATGW or AAM as primary armament, but have RoF 9. It may be a design thing, so I shan’t bother listing them. If it isn’t a design thing, let me know & I’ll do the list.

Aerospatiale AS.550 Fennec – Denmark 122 has Size 3, standard for the Ecureuil series is 2.

Aerospatiale SA.365 Panther – Saudi 548 has a ‘Steel HR’ value of 1.
SA.565 – ‘Armour’ figures differ: Israel 271 has 8/2, China 483 has 12/6, Gulf 115 has 9/2, Angola 153 has 8/0.

Aerospatiale AS.532 Cougar – Switzerland 222 has Speed 80, standard is 93 or 108. It also has ‘Steel HF’ 10, standard is 12.

Sud Aviation Alouette III – Yugoslavia 126 has Stabiliser 3, India 122 has 4, Switzerland 214 has 0, others have 5.
Angola 151 has ‘Steel HF’ 5, all others have 4.

Sud-Est Alouette II – Switzerland 982 has RoF 6, standard for TOW-armed helicopters is 4 or 9.
Switzerland 983 has RoF 5, standard for mg-armed helos is 9.

Eurocopter EC 635 – Iraq 963 has RoF 4, primary armament is MG.

Agusta A.109 – Belgium 207 has Size 3, all others have 2.

Agusta A.129 Mangusta – Italy 504 & 506 have Size 1, all others have 2.

Kamov Ka-52 – Russia 374, 397 & 633 have Survivability 0. Struck me as odd for one of the most heavily-armoured helicopters in the game. However, I also note that very few Russian helicopters either in this class or in Class 221 have a Survivability rating, although they are given to exported versions.

Mil Mi-4 – NVA 222 has Stabiliser 2, E.Germany 115 has 5, standard for this class is 4.

Mil Mi-8 – E.Germany 120 has ‘Steel HS’ 0, standard for the TB version is 1.

Mil Mi-2 – E.Germany 117 has Survivability 3, standard is 4. It also has Stabiliser 5, standard is 4.

Mil Mi-24 – Slovakia 205 has ‘Steel HS’ 3, standard is 2.

Mil Mi-35 – India 123 & 124, Green 574 and Indonesia 612 have Survivability 4, all others have 5.
Cyprus 140 & 141 and Indonesia 612 have ‘Steel HS’ 2, all others have 3.

Westland Gazelle – Gulf 120 is the other helicopter (see previous class) with a Swim Speed. Unlike the Mi-14, the Gazelle does not have a boat-shaped hull, nor have I ever seen a model with floats.
Syria 138, Libya 131, Chad 235 & Kenya 151 have ‘Steel HS’ 1, all others have 0.

Bell UH-1 Huey – Iran 285, Turkey 476 & N.Yemen 123 have Survivability 3, standard is 4.
Italy 499 has Stabiliser 3, El Salvador 126 has 4, standard for gunship versions is 5.
Iran 285, S.Korea 115, Spain 511 & 512 and N.Yemen 123 have ‘Steel HF’ 5, standard is 6.

Bell AH-1 Hueycobra – USMC 118 has Size 3, all other early models have 2.
Israel 273, NVA 225 & Spain 516 have Speed 74, standard is 92 or 111.
Pakistan 430 & 431 and Spain 515 & 516 have Survivability 2, S.Korea 120 has 4, standard is 3.
Taiwan 120 & 121 have Armour 8/2/1/1/1/1/0. As with the previous class, I didn’t think this could be done.

AH-1W – USMC 500 has ‘Steel HS’ 3, all others have 2.
Taiwan 120 & 121 and Turkey 479-481 have ‘Steel HF’ 8, others have 10.

Boeing-Vertol CH-47 Chinook – USA 905 has Armour 12/2/1/12/2/1/1. Comments as for AH-1.

Hughes 500/OH-6 – Japan 361 & 365 and Finland 524-526 have Size 1, all others have 2.
S.Korea 117 & Taiwan 117 have Speed 70, all others have at least 80.
Spain 583 & El Salvador 117 have FC & Rangefinder 0/0, all others have 5/3 They also have ‘Steel HS’ 0, all others have 1.
Japan 361 and Finland 524-526 have ‘Steel HF & HS’ 5/0, standard is 6/1.

McDonnell-Hughes AH-64 – Netherlands 523-526 have Survivability 2, all others have 3.

Sikorsky H-34 – France 481, 483 & 484 have Size 3, standard is 4.

Sikorsky UH-60/S-70 – Gulf 116 has Stabiliser 3, standard is 4.
Gulf 116 and Brazil 127 & 902 have Armour 10/2/2/2/2/2/0. Comments as for AH-1.
Chile 523 has a ‘Steel TS’ value of 2.

Richard H

Richard_H

November 25th, 2011, 11:14 AM

Helicopters are a headache, I'll come back to the other classes.

In the meantime, some nice easy Guards classes!

Class 89 – Guards Infantry

Iraq 432 & 433 have 20 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds, Iraq 434 has 16, all for 9 Crew.
Bosnia-H 94 have 6 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 7 Crew.
Saudi 483 & 484 have 16 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 6 Crew.

Class 90 – Guards Squad

Libya 515-518 have 20 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 9 Crew.
Switzerland 518, 930 & 931 have 6 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 4 Crew.
Nigeria 440 and Uganda 440 have 16 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 9 Crew.

Class 91 – Light Guards

Poland 874-876 & 886 have 20 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 6 Crew.

Richard H

Suhiir

November 25th, 2011, 06:47 PM

Personally I found helos and aircraft (especially aircraft) to be the biggest pain in the rear when doing my OOB variant.
Probably one reason I'm a tad "excitable" concerning how WinSPMBT handles aircraft ... all that work for so little in-game utility :cry:

And it's 92 times worse for Andy & Don.

Richard_H

November 26th, 2011, 11:39 AM

Once I've finished this little exercise, downloading your mod is top of my hit list!

But for now - I'm still off helicopters, so here's a little flak.

Class 8 – Flak

Lots of anomalies here (mostly size-wise), especially if one follows the ‘Mobhack Guide’ to the letter. 80% of units up to 25mm are Size 1, so I’ve indicated those that aren’t. However, there are a lot (maybe 100+) of units in the 30-40mm bracket that are also Size 1, particularly those involving the 40mm Bofors. I’ve indicated them, if only because according to the Guide they should be Size 2, but changing them all would drive Don nuts!

12.7mm AAMG – Poland 622 & 623, NVA 289, Yugoslavia 459, Switzerland 752 & 753, Bosnia-H 459 and Croatia 459 are Size 0, all others (including other classes) are 1.
PLO 179 has Crew 3, all others have 4.
Poland 622 & 623 have Speed 3, all others have 2.
Poland 622 & 623, USA 522, Iraq 851, N.Korea 636, Yugoslavia 459, Austria 46, Cambodia 81, Croatia 459 and Lebanon 600 have Load Cost 1. Standard, at least in other classes with AAMG, is 0.
Paraguay 260 & 261 have 10 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds and 4 Crew.

12.7mm Quad M55 – S.Korea 205, Cyprus 103, Brazil 314 and Paraguay 259 have Speed 0, all others have 1.
Denmark 66 has Load Cost 1, Pakistan 376, Portugal 52 and Paraguay 259 have 3, all others have 2.
Malaysia 98 has 4 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 6 Crew.
Italy 169 & 171 have Size 2 (standard is 1) and RoF 8 (standard is 9). Italy 171 also has Speed 0, standard is 1, even with radar.

14.5mm ZPU-1 – Syria 262, PLO 180 and Afghanistan 271 have Crew 3, all others have 4.
Iraq 296 has Speed 2, all others have 1.
Albania 350 and Zimbabwe 89 have Load Cost 0, all others have 2.
Afghanistan 271 has 3 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds.

14.5mm ZPU-2 – Yugoslavia 461 & 462 have Size 2, all others have 1.
PLO 181, NVA 293, Afghanistan 272, E.Germany 86, Czech 86, Hungary 86, Romania 86 and Bulgaria 304 have Crew 3, all others have 4.
Pakistan 378 has Load Cost 3, Poland 86, Hungary 86, Red 86 and Viet Cong 86 have 1, all others have 2.
Afghanistan 272, E.Germany 86, Czech 86 and Hungary 86 have 3 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds.

14.5mm ZPU-4 – Yugoslavia 463-465, Bosnia 465 and Croatia 465 have Size 2, all others have 1.
Syria 264, Russia 417, China 442 & 444, Iraq 298, N.Korea 84 and Lebanon 602 have Crew 6, all others have 4.
Poland 87, Syria 264, Viet Cong 87 and Nicaragua 317 have Load Cost 2, all others have 3
Russia 417, China 442 & 444, Iraq 298, N.Korea 84 and Lebanon 602 have 6 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds.

20mm Hispano/Oerlikon – all 27 of these are Size 2, which is the standard size of a 37-40mm. From the photos, they don’t have a significantly larger footprint than, for example, the Vulcan, which is generally Size 1 even with radar fire control. The units concerned are :- Israel 166, Belgium 67, Romania 84, Argentina 312, Austria 47 & 48, Switzerland 82, 84 & 777-789, Kenya 334, Bulgaria 301 and Uruguay 151.
Israel 166, Belgium 67, Kenya 334 and Bulgaria 301 have Crew 7 and Load Cost 3, standard is 3/1.
Romania 84 has Crew 6, standard is 3.
Israel 166 has 4 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds.

20mm M55 – Paraguay 262 has Size 2, Crew 3 and Load Cost 1, all others have 1/6/2.

20mm M55 x 3 – Yugoslavia 470 & 471, Switzerland 83, Bosnia 471, Croatia 471 and Indonesia 318 have Size 2, others have 1.
Green 318 & El Salvador 318 have Crew 7, Cyprus 104 has 6, standard is 5. They all also have Load Cost 3, standard is 2.
Cyprus 104 has Speed 0, standard is 1.

Switzerland 776 is in name a 34mm unit, but its primary weapon is quad 20mm (Weapon 71). Weapon 79 is 34mm.

20mm M75 – Yugoslavia 467 & 468, Bosnia 468 & Croatia 468 have Size 2, standard size for 20mm AA is 1.
Peru 317 has Crew 6, others have 3.

20mm Rh202 – Greece 174 & Indonesia 317 have Crew 7 and Load Cost 3, all others have 3/1.

20mm Vulcan – Belgium 68 is Size 2, all others are 1.
Jordan 322 & 323 have Crew 7, Uruguay 153 & 154 have 3, all others have 4.
Egypt 203, USA 234, Gulf 292 & 293, Belgium 68, Thailand 161 and Saudi 292 have Speed 1, standard for the radar-equipped version is 0.
Egypt 203 has 3 Weapon 2 (SKS Carbine) rounds.

23mm ZU-23 – Poland 79, 88, 95 & 619, NVA 295, Romania 88 & 106, Yugoslavia 473 & 474, Algeria 161, Bosnia 474, Croatia 474, Chad 167, Finland 92 & 93, Kenya 328, Zimbabwe 92, Ukraine 418 and Mozambique 29 have Size 2, all others have 1.
Poland 79, 95 & 619, Finland 92 & 93, Viet Cong 88 and Nicaragua 318 have Crew 6, all others have 4.
Poland 79, 95 & 619, Jordan 321, Russia 418, 794, 797, 799, 814 & 816, Yugoslavia 473 & 474, Bosnia 474, Croatia 474 and Lebanon 603 have Load Cost 3, all others have 4.

25mm Mle.39 – Austria 49 has Crew 3, Romania 85 has 6. As the older AA guns tended to have larger crews than more modern types, I would incline towards the Romanian figure, but have no supporting evidence.

30mm M1992 - N.Korea 86 has Size 3, standard is 2.

30mm Oerlikon – Taiwan 207, S.Korea 207, Greece 178, Italy 172, Libya 350, Argentina 314 and Sudan 561 are Size 1, standard is 2.
Greece 178 has Crew 4, Argentina 314 has 3, Finland 95 has 5.
Italy 172 and Sudan 561 have Crew 4, standard for a twin installation is 6.
Argentina 314 has Load Cost 1, standard is 3.

35mm Type 90 – China 449 is Size 3, standard for 35mm is 2.

35mm Oerlikon – Turkey 161-163, Spain 156 & 157, Romania 90 & 91, Cyprus 105 and Ecuador 317 have Crew 7, all others have 6.
Turkey 161 & 162, Spain 156 and Romania 90 have Load Cost 4, all others have 3.
Size 1 units:- Japan 110 & 111, UK 426, Canada 207 & 208, Greece 177 & 179, Turkey 161-163, Spain 156 & 157, Romania 90 & 91, Argentina 317, Cyprus 105, Malaysia 102 & 103, Ecuador 317.

37mm M1939 – Syria 261 and Czech 80 have Crew 6, standard is 8.
Poland 80, Syria 261, Russia 391, E.Germany 89, Czech 80, Hungary 80, Cuba 345 and Algeria 162 & 163 have Load Cost 3, Pakistan 379 has 1, standard is 4.

Size 1 37mm AA:- Syria 261, Iran 257, Pakistan 379, E.Germany 89, Cuba 345, Nicaragua 315, Bulgaria 302 & 303.

40mm Bofors – Belgium 51 has Crew 8, Italy 168 & 170 have 4, Netherlands 160 has 3, Norway 194, Finland 100 & 101 have 6, standard is 7.
USMC 49 & 941 have Speed 1, all others have 0.
Yugoslavia 476-478, Bosnia 477 & Croatia 477 have Load Cost 4, Italy 170 has 5, standard is 3, even for a radar-equipped mounting.
Italy 168, 170 & 173 have RoF 8, all others have 9.
Israel 167 & 168 have 4 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 7 Crew.
Size 1 units:- Egypt 202, Israel 167 & 168, UK 424 & 425, Jordan 319 & 320, Iran 255, Australia 214 & 215, Gulf 290, Iraq 295, India 510-512, S.Korea 206, Taiwan 206, Mujahadeen 270, Pakistan 370 & 371, Afghanistan 270, Canada 205 & 206, Greece 176, Turkey 159 & 160, Spain 154 & 155, Denmark 64 & 65, Libya 345, Green 314 & 315, Argentina 315 & 316, Cyprus 102, Brazil 315 & 317, Cuba 340, S.Africa 124, Angola 330, Chile 315, Nigeria 330, Saudi 290, Sudan 555, Kenya 330-332, Indonesia 315 & 316, Malaysia 100 & 101, S.Yemen 290, N.Yemen 290, Ecuador 315, El Salvador 315, Nicaragua 319, Peru 315, Somalia 336, Tanzania 330, Uganda 330, Uruguay 150, Paraguay 265.

57mm M1950 – Russia 419 & 420, Pakistan 380 & 381, Cuba 346-348, Algeria 164 and Albania 353 & 354 have Crew 8, all others have 7.
Russia 419 & 420 and Yugoslavia 479-481 have Load Cost 4, all others have 3.
Size 2 units (Standard in the Guide is Size 3):- Egypt 207 & 208, Syria 266 & 267, PLO 184, Iran 258 & 259, Russia 420, Iraq 300, Mujahadeen 275, Pakistan 380 & 381, Afghanistan 275, Turkey 157, E.Germany 370 & 371, Libya 349, Cuba 346-348, Algeria 164, Albania 353 & 354, Angola 335 & 336, Ethiopia 349, Viet Cong 89, N.Yemen 294, Eritrea 335, Ukraine 419 & 420, Bulgaria 308, Somalia 335.

75mm – Switzerland 758 has Size 1, standard is 3.

Richard H

Marcello

November 26th, 2011, 02:55 PM

30mm M1992 - N.Korea 86 has Size 3, standard is 2

It is believed to be used from prepared emplacements, as it requires an external power supply. Likely associated to radar targeting and similar gear. So perhaps it might be justifiable.

DRG

November 26th, 2011, 05:17 PM

The 'Mobhack Guide’ numbers are GUIDELINES put together so early OOB workers would have someplace to refer to when they had a question but after that it was up to them to determine the most appropriate size from known photographs. That NK gun is size three because that seemed the more appropriate size and given they were allowed some latitude it's no surprise they took it

Richard_H

November 26th, 2011, 05:40 PM

That's very interesting, given that there do not appear to be any known photographs of the M1990 static version (http://blog.daum.net/rodin/15963532)

.lbm 45500 is used for both this and the Greek Artemis system; I have attached the original of the lbm - it is an Artemis.

I will repeat this - these are anomalies, and without seeing a photo of the real thing, nobody can really make a judgment 'against the head', as they say in rugby.

Richard H

DRG

November 26th, 2011, 06:13 PM

YES they CAN make a judgment and they did about 10 years ago and that's why it was sized to 3 and since, as you pointed out they are no photos available 3 is just as valid as 2 despite the guidelines that said that caliber weapon should be 2. 3 is acceptable to me. That photo was used simply becasue it was not well know and no photo, in all these years, as been located of the NK gun so yes, we aware it is a photo of the Artemis

Don

FASTBOAT TOUGH

November 27th, 2011, 04:05 AM

You might find what you're looking for off this site. RECOMMEND you read the "About" section first, he's more qualified on matters North Korean then any of us will be. This site was very useful in the great P'okpoong MBT "discussion" from ~last Spring in the MBT section. You'll need to search the back issues (~20+/-) as he's discussed various weapons throughout amongst other topics, I just don't have the time at the moment as I've got other headaches to deal with during this critical upcoming week of transition at work-sorry.
http://www.kpajournal.com/
Marcello good to see you back, seems like it's been a while.

Regards,
Pat

DRG

November 27th, 2011, 09:50 AM

I've saved the link and will take a look at this as time allows

Don

Richard_H

November 27th, 2011, 10:05 AM

If that's my worst sin, I can't be doing too badly;)

SP Flak in all its guises.

Class 22 – SP Flak

Lift Capacity – Poland 200, Iraq 47, 48 & 526 and Afghanistan 324 have a lift capacity, although this is discouraged by the Mobhack Guide. None of the units requires a lift capacity for its formations.

Taiwan 50 has a Class 6 primary weapon.

Somalia 192 & 193 have RoF 8, all others have 9.

2S6 Tunguska – India 50, Yugoslavia 495 and Peru 87 have Size 4, all others have 5.
Yugoslavia 495 has Armour 3/2/1/2/1/1/1, all others have 3/2/2/2/2/2/2.

BTR-40A (and derivatives) – Iran 236, Russia 400, China 42, E.Germany 41, Red 520, Cambodia 43 and Tanzania 216 have Size 3, standard is 4.
Iran 236, S.Yemen 200 and Tanzania 216 have Crew 4, E.Gemany 41 has 5, standard is 3.
Standard speed is 22, with a few at 27. However, both Janes publications and http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product1121.html would suggest that 27 is correct. Those units with Speed 22 are:- Poland 41, Syria 270, Iran 236, China 42, Iraq 41, N.Korea 41, NVA 425, E.Germany 41, Czech 41, Yugoslavia 489, Cambodia 43, Sudan 200, Viet Cong 481, S.Yemen 200, N.Yemen 200 and Peru 85.
Tanzania 26 has frontal armour (hull and turret) 1, all others have 2.

BTR-152A – Pakistan 236 and Zimbabwe 400 have Crew 3, NVA 426, E.Germany 40 and Red 517 have 5, others have 4, which Janes AFV Recognition Handbook has as correct.

BTR-152D – Pakistan 237 has Crew 3, Somalia 192 has 4, all others have 5.

M16 – France 450 and Tanzania 215 have Speed 18, Russia 399 has 22, standard is 24.

M19 – Netherlands 91, Turkey 104 and Italy 83 have Crew 4, all others have 6.
Turkey 104 has Speed 18, all others have 19.
USA 47 has Load Cost 10, all others have 21.
USA 47, Netherlands 91 and Italy 83 have Turret Front armour 2, all others have 1.

M42 Duster – France 451 and Nigeria 380 have Crew 4, all others have 6.
France 451 and Turkey 105 have Speed 26, all others have 24.
France 451, Green 86 and Nigeria 380 have Survivability 3, all others have 4.
Italy 84 has Load Cost 23, all others have 18.
Turkey 105 has Armour 4/3/2/3/1/1/0, all others have 3/2/2/2/1/1/0.

M113 (and derivatives) – PLO 213 has Crew 5 and Speed 18, similar units have 3/20.

M163 Vulcan – USA 50 & 208 (and 7 others) have Size 3; Thailand 512 & 513, Chile 87, Saudi 201 & 202, Sudan 201, Ecuador 86 and Somalia 193 have 4.
Jordan 312, Gulf 201 and Chile 87 have Speed 18, standard is 23.
Israel 105, USA 50 & 208, Gulf 201, S.Korea 49 and Albania 638 have Armour 3/2/1/3/2/1/1, the majority have 3/3/2/3/3/2/1.

Type 63 – China 40 has Speed 18, NVA 429 and Viet Cong 483 have 16. According to www.fas.org and www.globalsecurity.org, 16 is correct. China 40 also has Survivability 3, others have 4.

White Scout Car – Somalia 190 has Load Cost 5.

ZSU-23-4 – Afghanistan 320 and E.Germany 43 have Speed 15, all others have 17.
PLO 214 has Survivability 3, all others have 4.
N.Korea 620 has Load Cost 19, all others have 15.
E.Germany 43 has Armour 3/2/2/3/3/2/2, all others have 2/1/1/2/1/1/1.

ZSU-57-2 – Iraq 44 has Load Cost 31, all others have 21.
Iraq 44 has Armour 8/6/3/2/2/2/0, N.Korea 45 has 19/8/5/2/2/2/0, all others have 3/2/2/2/2/2/0. May be local modifications.

Class 128 – Light SPAA

Russia 978 has Load Cost 6.

Class 181 – AA Truck

USA 329 has Load Cost 9.

Somalia 280 has RoF 8, standard is 9.

Richard H

Richard_H

November 28th, 2011, 02:10 PM

Bit the bullet - back to helicopters.

Class 204 – Light Helicopter

This class will delight anybody who “welcomes, applauds and encourages diversity” (Andy G will catch my drift here!). Take for instance the Bell 47 – a simple enough beast, but with about 16 different names in 5 units. OK, let’s do a “Sort by Speed” . . . . fat chance, it has abot 8 different speeds as well! I begin to understand Don’s desire for name standardisation :>)

Don, if there are inconsistencies in this section (as in any other, of course) I apologise in advance, but some 350 units have taken me 2½ days, and it’s done my head in. I may even have another go at this class at the end – but that’ll be after the brain transplant . . .

Cosmetic point – Italy 587 & 588, Albania 128 and Malaysia 313 & 314 have ‘HEAT Top’ 2, ie they are ‘returners’.

Aerospatiale SA.315 Lama – Chile 118 has ‘Steel HF’ 8, all others have 4.

Aerospatiale SA.365 Dauphin – Angola 128 and Uruguay 272 have Survivability 3, standard is 4. They also have ‘Steel HF’ 4, standard is 6.

Aerospatiale AS.550 Fennec – France 507 and Paraguay 282 have Size 3, standard is 2.
Algeria 224 has Speed 102, which seems excessive. Others have 94 or 81. It also has Survivability 4, standard is 3.
Paraguay 282 has ‘Steel HF’ 4, standard is 6.

Sud-Est Alouette II – Sweden 580 has Survivability 1, standard is 2.
Switzerland 988 and Zimbabwe 110 have Stabiliser 0, although armed (standard is 5).
Greece 505 has Stabiliser 5, although unarmed.

Sud-Ouest Djinn – France 501 has Size 1, Switzerland 618 has 2. With a fuselage length of 17’ 5”, 1 seems more appropriate.
France 501 has Speed 35, Switzerland 618 has 65. Janes 1954 gives speed at 81 mph, which equates to 43.
French unit has Survivability 1 and Steel HF 5, Swiss has 3/3.
Swiss unit has dates 1/48 to 12/59. The Djinn’s first flight was in 1/53, and no relevant formation begins until 1/62. According to SIPRI, 4 were delivered between 1958 & 1959. No record of how long they stayed in service, but given the Swiss propensity for getting the most out of their aircraft. . . .

Sud Alouette III – Nigeria 137 has Survivability 3, Lebanon 125 has 1, standard is 2.
France 506, Gulf 114, ARVN 597, Greece 506, Turkey 492, Libya 112, Argentina 526, Austria 121, Albania 126, Chad 212, Lebanon 127, Indonesia 113, Portugal 279, UN 114 and Peru 124 have ‘Steel HF’ 5, Lebanon 125 has 3, standard is 4.

MBB Bo.105 – Green 536 and Nigeria 122 have Speed 90, standard is 80 or 82.
Iraq 106, Gulf 113, S.Korea 102, Netherlands 503, Spain 501 & 502, Chile 116 and Kenya 124 have ‘Steel HF’ 6, Peru 128 has 10, standard is 4.

Agusta A.109 – Belgium 208 & 209 and Sweden 587 have Size 3, all others have 2.
Belgium 208 & 209 have ‘Steel HF’ 10, Sweden 587 has 4, standard is 9.

Mil Mi-1 – Poland 424, Russia 310, China 110, E.Germany 113, Czech 550, Hungary 114, Romania 114 & 115, Cambodia 107, Finland 520, Indonesia 114 and Somalia 145 & 146 have Size 3, standard is 2.
Poland 424, China 110, E.Germany 113, Czech 550, Hungary 114, Romania 114, Cambodia 107, Finland 520, Indonesia 114 and Somalia 145 have Speed 76, standard is 67.
Russia 310 has Speed 62, which is probably closer to reality.
Poland 424, China 110, E.Germany 113, Czech 550, Hungary 114, Romania 114 & 115, Finland 520, Indonesia 114 and Somalia 145 & 146 have Survivability 3, Russia 310 has 0, standard is 1.
Poland 424, Algeria 225, Finland 520 and Indonesia 114 have ‘Steel HF’ 2, standard is 4.
NB I have included the SM-1 & SM-2 variants, because there was very little difference between them.

Mil Mi-2 – Afghanistan 115 has Size 2, all others have 3.
E.Germany 116, Czech 552, Hungary 115, Red 407 & 409 and Ukraine 311 have Speed 76, standard is 70.
Russia 311 has Survivability 0, Czech 552, Hungary 115, Red 407 & 409, Nicaragua 116, Peru 114 and Bulgaria 116 have 4, standard for this class is 3.

Mil Mi-34 – Russia 354 has Size 1, Slovakia 295 and Ukraine 354 have 3, all others have 2.
Brazil 114, Slovakia 295, Nigeria 127 and Ukraine 354 have Speed 80, standard is 70. They also have ‘Steel HF’ 4, others have 5.

Westland Wasp/Scout – UK 525 has Survivability 3, S.Africa 157 and Uganda 121 have 1, a slight majority have 2.
S.Africa 157 has ‘Steel HF’ 3, all others have 6.

Westland Gazelle – Egypt 114 has Speed 87, standard is 102.
France 509 and Jordan 103 ,have Survivability 4, standard is 3.
Syria 118 & 138 have ‘Steel HS’ 1, standard is 0.

Bell 47/H-13 (and derivatives) – Speeds vary from 37 to 68. From Janes and others, 56 is about right. The range is:-
37 – Sweden 579.
44 – India 137, Pakistan 400.
47 - Turkey 490, Italy 478.
65 – UK 524, Iran 264, USMC 157, Australia 432, Gulf 110, S.Korea 97, Greece 504, Denmark 110 & 111, Argentina 520, Austria 118, Cyprus 142, Cuba 120, Cambodia 109, Chile 115, Saudi 520, Indonesia 119 & 122, Malaysia 308, S.Yemen 110, N.Yemen 110, Uruguay 270, Paraguay 280.
67 – UN 115.
68 – ARVN 598, Norway 253, Green 529, Brazil 115, Angola 120, Nigeria 124, Kenya 121, Ecuador 115, Nicaragua 115, Peru 115, Tanzania 120, Uganda 120.
Japan 340, USA 282, India 137, Pakistan 400, Greece 504, Turkey 490, Spain 585, Italy 478 & 479, Thailand 488, Chad 214, Sweden 579 and Somalia 144 have Size 1, the majority have 2.
Japan 340, USA 282, Belgium 202, Turkey 490, Spain 585, Italy 478 & 479, Thailand 488, Chad 214 and Somalia 144 have Survivability 2, UK 524, India 137, Pakistan 400 and Malaysia 308 have 3, Iran 264 has 0, standard in this class is 1.
Japan 340, USA 282, Spain 585, Thailand 488 and Sweden 579 have ‘Steel HF’ 2, India 137, Pakistan 400, Turkey 490, Italy 478 & 479, Chad 214 and Somalia 144 have 6, standard is 3.

Bell 206/OH-58 (and derivatives) – Gulf 112, Afghanistan 118, Libya 114, Green 534, Argentina 524, Austria 122, Cyprus 144, Chile 117, Nigeria 125, Ethiopia 111, Saudi 523, Kenya 122, N.Yemen 112, Ecuador 116, Tanzania 122 and Uganda 122 have Size 2, standard over all classes is 3.
Austria 122, Chile 117 and N.Yemen 112 have Speed 94, standard is 79-80.
PLO 235, Turkey 491 and Sweden 583 have Survivability 2, Yugoslavia 119 and Croatia 119 have 4, standard is 3.
Israel 263, PLO 25, Iran 261, USA 296, Australia 434 & 435, Pakistan 402, Afghanistan 118, Turkey 491, Libya 114, Yugoslavia 119, Austria 122, Algeria 223, Croatia 119, Sweden 583 and UN 116 have ‘Steel HF’ 8, standard for this class is 5.

Hiller OH-23 – France 500, Netherlands 500 and Turkey 489 have Speed 40, Cuba 119 and Uruguay 268 have 64, Canada 403 has 65. Although those with Speed 51 are in a minority, Jane’s and others suggest that this is correct.
France 500, Cuba 119, Thailand 484 and Uruguay 268 have Survivability 1, all others have 2.
France 500 has ‘Steel HF’ 5, Canada 403 has 3, all others have 2.

Hughes 500/OH-6 – In this class 10 of these are Size 1, the majority Size 2. As the OH-6 is rather smaller than the OH-13, there’s a case for all of them to be Size 1 – but what a pain to plough through.
S.Korea 100 has Speed 70, all others have at least 80.
Italy 481 and Finland 522 have Survivability 3, standard in this class is 2.

Schweizer 300 – Sweden 584 has Speed 37, others have 56.

Sikorsky S-51 – Thailand 487 has Size 1, all others have 2.
Japan 338, Iraq 105 and Argentina 521 have Survivability 3, standard is 2. They also have ‘Steel HF’ 6, others have 2.

Richard H

Richard_H

November 28th, 2011, 05:41 PM

Heavies - mercifully much simpler.

Class 205 – Heavy Helicopter

Japan 503 & 515, USA 293 and Afghanistan 123 have ‘all-round’ Steel Armour.

Aerospatiale SA.321 Super Frelon – Israel 267, France 515, Pakistan 425 and S.Africa 465 have Size 3, standard (although the minority) is 4 – it’s about the same size as a Sea King.
Israel 267 has Survivability 5, all others have 4.
Pakistan 425 and S.Africa 465 have Lift Capacity 237, Libya 126 has 140. According to Janes, maximum load is 30 troops. Changing the figure would not affect any formations.
Israel 267 has ‘Steel HF’ 10, Iran 279, Iraq 113 and Libya 126 have 12, standard is 14.

Aerospatiale AS.332 Super Puma – Switzerland 219 and Sweden 575 have Survivability 4, standard is 3.
Switzerland 219 has Stabiliser 0, standard for armed versions is 4.
Switzerland 140, 218 & 219 have ‘Steel HF’ 10, standard is 12.

NH 90 – Sweden 577 has Speed 83, standard is 100.

Mil Mi-6 – Egypt 116, Syria 123, Iraq 111, NVA 214, Libya 123, Algeria 295 and Peru 534 are Size 4. Although they are the majority, the Mi-6 is very similar in size to the Mi-26, so I think 5 is more appropriate.
Russia 351 has Speed 83, Ukraine 351 has 66, standard is 100.
Russia 351 has Survivability 0, all others have 4.

Mil Mi-17 – Afghanistan 119 has Stabiliser 0, standard for armed versions is 4.

Mil Mi-26 – India 140, Libya 124, Cambodia 455 and Peru 541 have Size 6, standard is 5.
Ukraine 352 & 353 have Speed 72, all others have 98.
Russia 352 has Survivability 0, India 140, Libya 124, Cambodia 455 and Peru 541 have 6, standard is 4.

Boeing-Vertol CH-46 and derivatives – Green 563 and Saudi 527 have Speed 100, standard is 84.
Saudi 527 has ‘Steel HF’ 5, Sweden 576 has 6, standard is 10.

Boeing-Vertol CH-47 Chinook – Greece 590 and Spain 508 have Speed 88, standard is 100.
UK 533 & 534 have Survivability 3, standard is 4.
UK 533, Pakistan 417 and Argentina 538 have Stabiliser 0, standard for armed versions is 4.
Libya 125 has ‘Steel HF’ 6, Nigeria 145 and Tanzania 137 have 8, USA 895 has 13, standard is 12.

Sikorsky SH-3 Sea King – Japan 509, USA 897 and USMC 109 have Speed 59, which seems low. They are different models, but the lowest for all other models of SH-3 variants is 72.
Iran 269 has Stabiliser 0, standard for armed versions is 4.
Israel 268 & 269, Iran 274 & 276, USMC 123, Green 565 and W.Germany 333 have ‘Steel HF’ 8, Israel 270, USMC 124 & 313-316, Turkey 580, Italy 492 and Austria 124 have 10, standard is 14.

Sikorsky UH-60 – Afghanistan 123 has Survivability 6, standard is 4. It also has ‘Armour’ 12/4, standard is 10/2.

Richard H

Richard_H

November 28th, 2011, 07:39 PM

Last of the helicopters.

Class 221 – Light Attack Helicopter

Sud Aviation Alouette III – Portugal 118, 119 & 535 have ‘Steel HF’ 5, standard is 4.

Agusta A.109 – Belgium 268 has Size 3, Speed 82 and ‘armour’ 10/0, standards are 2/104/8/1.
Belgium 268 and Italy 501, 905 & 906 have Survivability 3, standard is 4.

Agusta A.129 Mangusta – Italy 503, 505 & 910 have Size 1, standard is 2.

Mil Mi-2 – Russia 314 & 361 have Speed 53, standard is 70. They also have Survivability 0, standard is 4.

Westland Wasp – Malaysia 544 has Speed 73, standard is 64. It also has Survivability 3, standard is 2.

Bell OH-13 – USA 277 has Size 1 (standard is 2), Survivability 2 (standard is 1) and ‘Steel HF’ 2 (standard is 3).

Bell UH-1 – Netherlands 518 has Survivability 3, standard is 4.

Bell 206/OH-58 – Malaysia 540 and 541 have a ‘Steel HR’ figure. They also have Size 2, standard is 3.

Sikorsky H-19 – France 503 has Size 4, standard is 3. It also has ‘Steel HF’ 6, standard is 5.

Class 222 – COIN Armed Helicopter

Bell AH-1 – USMC 504 & 505 have Size 3, standard is 2. They also have ‘Armour’ 8/2, standard is 10/3.

Richard H

Richard_H

November 29th, 2011, 01:06 PM

Engineers in all their guises.

Class 20 – Engineers

France 378 has 30 Weapon 2 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 7 Crew.

Syria 387, Italy 365 and Bulgaria 108 & 109 have 30 Weapon 2 (Hand Grenade) rounds, Russia 685 has 27, for 8 Crew.
Syria 386 and Zimbabwe 350 have 30 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds, Canada 107, 108, 111 & 113 have 27, for 8 Crew.
UK 137 has 20 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds, Canada 109 & 110 have 27, for 8 Crew.

Norway 482 has 24 Weapon 2 (Hand Grenade) rounds, Spain 302 has 30, for 9 Crew.
Australia 154 has 20 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 9 Crew.

Somalia 468 & 469 have 27 Weapon 2 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 10 Crew.
Somalia 465-467 have 27 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 10 Crew.

Poland 109 (10 Crew) runs partly concurrently with 110 (8 Crew).

Russia 769 (9 Crew) runs partly concurrently with 450-452, which have both 10 and 8 Crew.

E.Germany 431 (10 Crew) runs concurrently with several 8-man units.

Czech 109 (10 Crew) runs partly concurrently with 110 (8 Crew).

Hungary 108 (10 Crew) runs partly concurrently with 109 (8 Crew).

Bulgaria 109 (8 Crew) runs partly concurrently with 110 (8 Crew).

Class 140 – Pioneers

Lebanon 429 has 27 Weapon 2 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 8 Crew.
Lebanon 430 has 27 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds, Bulgaria 103 & 104 have 30, for 8 Crew.
Canada 88-90 have 21 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 8 Crew.

Norway 486 has 24 Weapon 2 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 9 Crew.

Bulgaria 104 (8 Crew) runs partly concurrently with 105 (10 Crew). Neither is a template unit.

Class 141 – Para Engineers

Czech 470 & 471 have 30 Weapon 2 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 8 Crew.

UK 124 has 30 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 8 Crew.

Poland 471 (10 Crew) runs concurrently with 472 (8 Crew). They are otherwise identical, and neither is a template unit.

Greece 313 (10 Crew) runs partly concurrently with 314 (8 Crew). It is a template unit.

Ethiopia 436 (12 Crew) runs partly concurrently with 452 (9 Crew). From looking at the formations involved, there is an organisational change starting 4/78.

Class 145 – Commando Engineers

UK 128 has 30 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 8 Crew.

Viet Cong 257-259 have 20 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 9 Crew.

Class 166 – Ski Pioneers

France 532 has 30 Weapon 2 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 7 Crew.

Class 170 – Guards Engineers

Iraq 447 & 448 have 30 Weapon 2 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 9 Crew.

Class 171 – Marines Engineers

Switzerland 648 & 649 have 24 Weapon 2 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 9 Crew.

S.Korea 364 has 4 weapons, but no ammunition.

Class 195 – Engineer Support Squad

Spain 252, Italy 270, 271 & 295 and Switzerland 934-938 have Speed 7, all others have 6.

ARVN 580 has Size 1 for Crew 2. May be because it has a flamethrower as Weapon 1.

Turkey 367-369 have RoF 9, standard with Flamethrower as primary weapon is 4.

Norway 473 has 24 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 9 Crew.

Richard H

Pibwl

November 29th, 2011, 09:56 PM

BTR-40A (and derivatives) – Iran 236, Russia 400, China 42, E.Germany 41, Red 520, Cambodia 43 and Tanzania 216 have Size 3, standard is 4.
Iran 236, S.Yemen 200 and Tanzania 216 have Crew 4, E.Gemany 41 has 5, standard is 3.
Standard speed is 22, with a few at 27. However, both Janes publications and http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product1121.html would suggest that 27 is correct.

BTR-40A - according to Russian sources (Bronyekollektsya by Bariatynski) speed = 80 km/h (some 27), crew 4 (should be standard). It wasn't big - silhouette was a bit smaller, than M-113 (size 3), and much smaller then BTR-152 (4).

(I wonder, if turret should be armoured at all - gun's crew was vulnerable).

BTR-152A – Pakistan 236 and Zimbabwe 400 have Crew 3, NVA 426, E.Germany 40 and Red 517 have 5, others have 4, which Janes AFV Recognition Handbook has as correct.

BTR-152A - according to Bariatynski, gun's crew was 3, +driver, + most likely commander = 5. It could also take 6 soldiers onboard and tow something.

M163 Vulcan –
Israel 105, USA 50 & 208, Gulf 201, S.Korea 49 and Albania 638 have Armour 3/2/1/3/2/1/1, the majority have 3/3/2/3/3/2/1.

3/2/1 seems more correct for a basic vehicle

Regards
Michal

Pibwl

November 29th, 2011, 10:11 PM

Mil Mi-1 – Poland 424, Russia 310, China 110, E.Germany 113, Czech 550, Hungary 114, Romania 114 & 115, Cambodia 107, Finland 520, Indonesia 114 and Somalia 145 & 146 have Size 3, standard is 2.

Poland 424, China 110, E.Germany 113, Czech 550, Hungary 114, Romania 114, Cambodia 107, Finland 520, Indonesia 114 and Somalia 145 have Speed 76, standard is 67.
Russia 310 has Speed 62, which is probably closer to reality.

Mi-1 - It was quite big as for "light Western helicopter" standards, so 3 is quite right (as Gazelle). As I wrote before, real speed according to Russian & Polish sources (who manufactured them) was 170 km/h - some 57.

Mil Mi-2 – Afghanistan 115 has Size 2, all others have 3.
E.Germany 116, Czech 552, Hungary 115, Red 407 & 409 and Ukraine 311 have Speed 76, standard is 70.

Mi-2 - Speed is usually stated at 210 km/h - 70.

Mil Mi-34 – Russia 354 has Size 1, Slovakia 295 and Ukraine 354 have 3, all others have 2.

Mi-34 - size 2 seems appropriate.

Mil Mi-6 – Egypt 116, Syria 123, Iraq 111, NVA 214, Libya 123, Algeria 295 and Peru 534 are Size 4. Although they are the majority, the Mi-6 is very similar in size to the Mi-26, so I think 5 is more appropriate.
Russia 351 has Speed 83, Ukraine 351 has 66, standard is 100.
Russia 351 has Survivability 0, all others have 4.

Mi-6 - Yes, it was huge. Cruise speed was some 250 km/h, so 83 is perfect.

Regards
Michal

Richard_H

November 30th, 2011, 07:34 AM

Class 36 – Mineclearing Tanks

My thinking with this and all other tank-based units has been to back off, unless something really starts to glare at me. So a difference of 1 in speed or armour rating I have left alone; I have only addressed a difference of 1 where it is in the range 1-6 (size, survivability etc), and have largely let speed differences get to 3 (10 kph) before I have highlighted them. If there has been, say, a RoF difference between exactly similar guns, I have addressed it, otherwise not. Likewise, countries may well have their own FC/Rangefinder fit, so I have left these alone unless the country of manufacture shows significantly reduced capabilities against its exports – and then only with major exporting countries.

T-72 KMT-6 – Poland 220 & 221 have Speed 21, all others have 25.

M84 Mine Plough – Gulf 193 & 198 have RoF 8, all others have 6 or 7.

Sherman Flail – France 584 has Crew 5, all others have 4. It also has Speed 10 (all others have 13) and Survivability 3 (all others have 4).

M48 Roller – Iran 178 and USA 194 have Size 6, all others have 5.
Iran 178 has Survivability 6, all others have 4.

M48A3 Roller – USA 616 has Size 6, all others have 5.

M60 Mine Plough – Jordan 196, USA 197 and Gulf 197 & 199 have Size 6, all others have 5.
Italy 98 and UN 217 have Speed 14, all others have 16.

ABV – USA 765 has RoF 6 (standard for a 50cal is 9).

Class 37 – Engineer Vehicles

AMX-30 EBG – Saudi 196 has Speed 20, all others have 22.
France 589 & 591 have FC 0 and Rangefinder, all others have 12/5.
France 589 is an interesting vehicle. It’s only available for a year (1/91-12/91) during the life of 589, but with reduced frontal armour. Was it a special version for 1st Gulf? Just my musings . . . .

Bulldozer – Japan 30, USMC 35, Norway 550, Italy 91, Austria 550, Slovakia 550, Switzerland 952, Chad 525 and Chechnya 550 have Survivability 1, standard is 0.
Switzerland 952 is only available until 1/120, standard is 12/120.

Pionierpanzer (Leopard) 1 – W.Germany 36 and Brazil 213 have RoF 6, standard for MG main armament is 9.

Leopard Dozer – Belgium 193 has Survivability 5, standard is 4. It also has Armour 16/5/3/21/6/6/2 and 114/9/3/38/7/8/2, others have 23/8/4/27/12/9/3 and 121/12/5/65/18/14/3. It may, however, be based on an earlier model.

Leopard 2 Dozer – Canada 643 has Armour 75/45/9/100/45/25/9 and 115/65/15/130/56/45/16. Standard 2A6 dozer armour is 62/17/6/100/30/15/5 and 180/52/15/130/50/30/12.

Centurion Dozer – Canada 195 has RoF 6, other 20-pdr 52 have 7.

Centurion AVRE – S.Yemen 196 has a 105mm M101 as main armament. Can’t see it myself, and I suspect it’s a copy of the S.African unit (both have Weapon 106 as main armament) without the weapon. As Weapon 106 isn’t used by any other S.Yemeni unit, a copy of the S.African weapon will sort it.

Sherman Dozer – Turkey 208 has Speed 16, standard is 13.
France 585, Iran 181, S.Korea 190, Taiwan 190, Pakistan 180, Netherlands 98 and Algeria 540 have Survivability 3, all others have 4.
Canada 194 has RoF 5, others with similar main armament have 7.
Iran 181 has Front Armour 15 & 113, standard is 11 & 109.

M728 – Egypt 214 has Survivability 5, all others have 4. It also has FC and Rangefinder 0/0, all others have 8/8.

Richard H

DRG

November 30th, 2011, 09:22 AM

Richard, as of today we do not need any further reports regarding differing Hand grenade allotments between units. We have built a program to correct these automatically based on unitclass so if you find anymore just skip over them.

Don

Richard_H

November 30th, 2011, 09:24 AM

Nice one Don, and thanks for the heads-up.

Richard H

Richard_H

November 30th, 2011, 09:26 AM

Commandos - now much reduced in size:)

Class 83 – Commandos

PLO 472 is the only 10-man unit in this class in the oob, and runs concurrently with the 6-man units.

Class 85 – Light Commandos

Chile 344 (6 Crew) runs concurrently with the other 4-man units. It is not a template unit, nor is it X3-coded.

Richard H

Richard_H

November 30th, 2011, 10:10 AM

Cavalry

Class 3 –Cavalry

Switzerland 888 & 889 have Speed 9, standard is 12.

Israel 155 and China 320-323 have Load Cost 100, standard is 25 or 28.

Class 150 – Cavalry Scouts

Egypt 583, Jordan 540, China 325-327, Gulf 595, Green 415 & 416, Argentina 265 & 266, Algeria 582 & 583, Chile 560 & 561, Chad 583, Saudi 475, Sudan 583 and Portugal 430-435 have Load Cost 100, standard is 25. As there are a lot of these, I wonder whether it’s a design thing?

Richard H

DRG

November 30th, 2011, 12:32 PM

DRG

November 30th, 2011, 02:47 PM

AS WELL, you can now refrain from reporting deviations in the size of any infantry type unit. That will be handled in the same way as the Hand grenade deviations.

Don

Richard_H

November 30th, 2011, 04:48 PM

You've been busy! Really looking forward to the mod already - March/ April as usual?

Damn shame I've nearly finished the infantry units :(

Richard H

Suhiir

November 30th, 2011, 05:52 PM

It's to to keep small cav units from being loaded into trucks . Large units with their combined men and weight normally exceeds truck carry cap but small scout units won't so they get 100 to ensure that won't happen but it does mean they cannot be loaded into landing craft....not that this is really an issue

Don

I had a lot of "fun" in my OOB variant making sure certain vehicles could be transported by CH-53s but not CH-46s/MV-22s (the LAV for instance).

I spent more time coming up with weights (which have ZERO relationship to their real world mass) for stuff then I'm certain Andy/Don have time/inclination to do for the other 61 OOBs in the game.

Richard_H

November 30th, 2011, 06:04 PM

Tee-hee - and if only they only had another 61:D

Infantry ATGM

Class 206 – Infanty ATGM

Israel 147 has Survivability 1, all others have 0.

Poland 488, Syria 108 & 111, Iran 437-439, Red 63, Slovakia 56 and Chile 107 have Load Cost 1, all others have 0.

Eryx – Malaysia 440 has RoF 6, all others have 5.

Milan – Australia 141 & 142 have RoF 8, Pakistan 313, Bosnia 223, Croatia 223 and Uruguay 98 have 5, standard is 4.

AT-3 Sagger – NVA 205 & 206 have FC & Rangefinder 1/1, all others have 0/0.

AT-4 Fagot – Poland 73, 287 & 288 have Crew 2, standard is 3.

AT-7 Metis – Syria 110, Algeria 102, Slovakia 63 and Croatia 225 have Crew 3, standard is 2.

Class 207 – Paratroop ATGM

Poland 489 has Load Cost 1, all others have 0.

Dragon – Argentina 485 has Crew 3, all others have 2.

HJ-8 – Indonesia 538 has Speed 3, standard is 6.

Class 212 – Heavy Infantry ATGM

Egypt 520-524 have a Swim Speed. IMHO, they might get away with a Milan, but they’d need some big flotation bags for a 27kg Swingfire!

Canada 289-293 have RoF 9, standard for SS.11 and TOW is 4.

SS.11 – Italy 451 has RoF 3, standard is 4.

TOW – Turkey 363 & 364, Denmark 274-277 and Thailand 77 & 78 have Load Cost 1, standard is 0.

Class 213 – Para Heavy ATGM

Bosnia 231 and Ecuador 350 have Speed 3, standard is 6.

Richard H

dmnt

December 1st, 2011, 12:52 PM

Just encountered this completely at random and I'm uncertain whether it has any effect on the gaming itself:

Finnish OOB (#65)
Weapon #21
.50 Tkiv 2000 (Sniper Rifle) has a weapon class 3 (Team Weapon), all other sniper rifles are in class 1 (Inf primary weapon)

dmnt

December 1st, 2011, 05:47 PM

Finnish OOB unit #310 PzJaeger Sec
Available Until 1/120, should be 12/120, unless edits from another thread about the reformation in 2015 are applied.

Richard_H

December 1st, 2011, 06:02 PM

Finnish OOB (#65)
Weapon #21
.50 Tkiv 2000 (Sniper Rifle) has a weapon class 3 (Team Weapon), all other sniper rifles are in class 1 (Inf primary weapon)

It's not unique; Malaysia, Poland and the Netherlands have something similar. Depends on the oob designer, I suspect.

Richard H

Richard_H

December 1st, 2011, 06:03 PM

SP ATGM

Class 19 – SP ATGM

AT-1 Shmel – Cuba 96 has RoF 3, standard is 4.

TOW – Netherlands 51 & 52 have RoF 9, standard is 4.

BOV-1 – Angola 297 has Steel TF Armour 2, all others have 3.

BRDM-1 – Egypt 350 and Algeria 336 have Speed 29, all others have 27.

BRDM-2 – Egypt 351 and Algeria 337 have Speed 36 and Swim Speed 2, all others have 32 and 3.
Iraq 226 & 227, Cuba 98 & 99, Angola 295, Nicaragua 470 and Tanzania 295 have Size 2, all others have 3.

GAZ-69 – Egypt 345 and Algeria 335 have Speed 20, standard is 24.

Land Rover – Denmark 37-39 have Speed 21, standard is 24.

HMMWV – Greece 56 & 57 have Survivability 0, standard for armoured versions is 2.

Jeep – Jordan 275 & 277, Gulf 203 and Denmark 35 & 36 have Speed 21, standard is 24.
Gulf 203 & 204 and Saudi 205 have Hand Grenades as Weapon 2.

M113 – Belgium 30 has Survivability 3, all others have 4.

M150 – Iran 531 and Turkey 56 & 57 have Speed 18, Greece 67 & 68 have 21, standard is 23.

M901 – Sizes are mixed. Jordan 281, USA 28, Iraq 229 & 604, Greece 69 & 70 and Thailand 42 have 3, leaving a narrow majority with 2.
Jordan 281 and Pakistan 195 have Speed 18, standard is 23.

Class 52 – Wheeled SP ATGM

HOT – Hungary 418 has RoF 6, standard is 4.

Milan – Italy 56 has RoF 9, standard is 4.

AT-3 Malyutka (and derivatives) – N.Korea 33 & 34 and Cambodia 525 have RoF 9, standard is 4.

AT-5 Konkurs – Poland 34 & 553, Iraq 261, Czech 34 and Slovakia 29 have RoF 6, standard is 4.

TOW – Italy 57 and Portugal 353 have RoF 9, Portugal 351 has 5, standard is 4.

BRDM-2 – Iraq 260 & 261, N.Korea 33 & 34 and Cambodia 525 are Size 2, all others are 3.

GAZ-69/UAZ-69 – Egypt 235 has Speed 21, standard is 24.
Poland 433 & 434, E.Germany 29, Czech 433 & 434 and Hungary 433 & 434 have Swim Speed 3, standard is 0.
Sudan 205 is the only ATGM-armed vehicle to have FC and Rangefinder.
Poland 433 & 434 and Sudan 205 are the only armoured versions.

HMMWV – Poland 77 is the only unit with a Lift Capacity.

Class 129 – Light SP ATGM

Sweden 198 & 199 have Load Cost 0.

Cobra – Chile 480 has RoF 9, standard is 4.

Mamba – Argentina 580 has RoF 9, standard is 4.

Milan – Italy 48 has RoF 6, France 464 & 655 have 9, standard is 4.

AT-2 Falanga – Red 503 has RoF 6, standard is 4.

AT-3 Malyutka – Red 504 & 505 and Eritrea 295 have RoF 9, standard is 4 (6 for Russian units).

AT-5 Konkurs – Red 507 has RoF 9, standard is 4 (5 for Russian units).

TOW – Norway 37 has RoF 9, standard is 4.

EE-3 Jaracara – Cyprus 26 has Top Armour 2, Brazil 444 & 445 have 1. Standard for the EE-3 is 2.

VAB VCAC – France 464 & 655 have Crew 8 & Speed 30, Cyprus 24 & 25 have 4 & 33. According to Janes, the French figures are correct.

BRDM-1 – Russia 380-382 are Size 2, all others are 3.
Red 502 has Speed 29, all others have 27.

BRDM-2 – Russia 630-632 have Steel HF 2, all other Russian versions have 3.

Jeep – Jordan 214 & 215 and India 465-468 have Speed 21, Chile 480 has 26, standard is 24.

M966 HMMWV – Nicaragua 260 is the only armoured version. If it is armoured, strictly speaking it’s a M1045. But it’s cosmetic.

Richard H

Richard_H

December 2nd, 2011, 03:13 PM

Anti-Tank Guns

Class 6 – Anti-Tank Gun

25mm SA34 – Syria 520 has RoF 9, Spain 347 has 8. Standard in WW2 appears to be 9.

3.7cm PaK 36 – Israel 160 has Crew 6 and Load Cost 2, standard is 5/1.

37mm M5 – Argentina 215, Ecuador 215, Uruguay 140 and Paraguay 108 have Crew 4, standard is 5.
Ecuador 215 has Load Cost 3, all others have 1.

37mm Type 1 – N.Korea 475, ARVN 585, Cambodia 475 and Viet Cong 74 have Size 1, standard for 37mm is 0.
N.Korea 475 and Cambodia 475 have Crew 5 and Load Cost 1, standard is 6/2.
N.Korea 475 has Speed 1, standard is 2.

2-pdr – Jordan 70, Iraq 230 and Libya 255 have Crew 5, Mujahadeen 255, Afghanistan 255, Ethiopia 255 and Lebanon 320 have 6, standard is 4.
Greece 295, Libya 255, Ethiopia 255 and Lebanon 320 have Speed 2, Tanzania 340 has 0, standard is 3.
Mujahadeen 255, Afghanistan 255, Libya 255, Ethiopia 255 and Lebanon 320 have Load Cost 2, standard is 1.

45mm M1942 – N.Korea 476 has Speed 1, Mujahadeen 258, Afghanistan 259 and N.Yemen 343 have 3, standard is 2.

47mm Breda – Greece 297, Spain 351, Libya 257, Brazil 216 and Chile 216 have Crew 5, a small majority have 6.
Italy 113 and Argentina 216 have Speed 1, Brazil 216, Chile 216 and Eritrea 343 have 2, standard is 3.
Spain 351, Brazil 216 and Chile 216 have Load Cost 1, standard is 2.

47mm Schneider – Syria 521 and Lebanon 322 have Speed 1, standard is 2.

5cm PaK 38 – Finland has Size 1 and Speed 1, standard is 0/2.
Romania 300 and Bulgaria 312 have Load Cost 2, standard is 1.

57mm ZiS-2 (and derivatives) – Egypt 261, Syria 522, Romania 339, Eritrea 344 and Bulgaria 315 & 316 have Size 1, standard is 0.
Egypt 261, Poland 78 & 81 and Libya 258 have Crew 5, standard is 6.
Poland 78, Syria 523, Mujahadeen 259 & 260, Afghanistan 260, E.Germany 80, Romania 304, Algeria 183, Indonesia 165, S.Yemen 341, N.Yemen 344, Nicaragua 217 and Bulgaria 315 & 316 have Speed 2, standard is 1.
NB France 104 has Speed 2, standard for the M1 is 1.
Egypt 261, Czech 78 & 81 and Cuba 331 have Load Cost 1, standard is 2.

6-pdr/57mm M1 – Jordan 71, India 72 & 73, S.Korea 560, Taiwan 560, Pakistan 77 & 78, Norway 103 & 371, Denmark 268 & 269, S.Africa 70 and Ethiopia 256 have Crew 6, Canada 431 and Portugal 240 have 4, standard is 5.
France 104, Jordan 71, Australia 210, India 72 & 73, S.Korea 560, Taiwan 560, Pakistan 77 & 78, Belgium 420, Netherlands 355, Canada 431, Denmark 268 & 269, S.Africa 70 and Indonesia 164 have Load Cost 2, standard is 1.
Tanzania 341 has RoF 7, all others have 8.

75mm M20 RCL (and derivatives) – Albania 90 has Crew 8, standard is 6.
China 630 and Albania 90 have Size 1, standard is 0.

7.5cm PaK 97/38 – Norway 373 and Bulgaria 313 have Speed 2, Norway 107 has 1, standard is 0.

7.5cm PaK 40 – NVA 124 and Hungary 76 have Crew 7, standard is 6.
Norway 374 and Bulgaria 314 have Speed 2, Norway 108 has 1, standard is 0.

76mm M1 – France 105 has Crew 5, standard is 6.
USA 257 and Green 217 & 218 have Load Cost 2, standard is 3.

76.2mm ZiS-3 (and derivatives) – N.Korea 650 has Speed 1, standard is 0.
Cyprus 55 has Crew 5, standard is 6.
Austria 188 and Nigeria 342 have Load Cost 2, Cyprus 55 and Tanzania 342 have 1, standard is 3.

17-pdr – Load Cost is either 2 or 3 (6 each), except for Italy 114, which has 1. Standard for others of similar size is 3. Those with Size 2 are:- Israel 163, Gulf 342 & 343, Saudi 343 & 344 and N.Yemen 342.

85mm D-44 – Iran 114, Mujahadeen 263, Afghanistan 262 & 263, Red 493 & 494, Cuba 335, Ethiopia 262, Sudan 344 & 345 and Eritrea 346 have Crew 8, standard is 6.
The above units, plus Iraq 235 & 236 and N.Korea 478 & 479, less Ethiopia 262, have Load Cost 2, standard for a 85mm is 3.
Sudan 345 is called ‘D-48’, although its primary weapon is called and has the stats of a D-44.

85mm D-48 – NVA 127, Cuba 336 & 337, Viet Cong 79, S.Yemen 343, N.Yemen 346 and Somalia 345 have Crew 8. Although those with Crew 6 are a minority, http://русская-сила.рф/guide/army/ar/d48.shtml confirms this as correct.
The above units, plus N.Korea 480, have Load Cost 2, standard for a 85mm is 3.

85mm M52 (and derivatives) – Cambodia 479 has Crew 8, Austria 189 has 7, standard is 6.
E.Germany 81 & 82 have Speed 1, standard is 0.
Czech 82 & 85 have Load Cost 1, Egypt 264 has 2, standard is 3.
Egypt 264 has FC 0, all others have 5.

100mm BS-3 – Iraq 238, Mujahadeen 264 and Red 495-497 have Crew 9, standard is 6 or 8 (split about evenly, as are the authorities.
Cyprus 56 has Load Cost 1, NVA 128 and Czech 83 & 84 have 2, Nicaragua 219 has 4, all others have 3.
NB Although the Czech unit is a later development, it is actually slightly heavier than the BS-3.

100mm T-12/2A29 – Cuba 94 has Crew 7, Iran 115, NVA 470 & 471, Afghanistan 265, E.Germany 320. Hungary 85 & 550, Viet Cong 81 and N.Yemen 348 & 349 have 8, Iraq 240 & 241 and Mujahadeen 265 have 9, standard is 6.
NVA 470 & 471 have Load Cost 2, standard is 3.

106mm RCL – Malaysia 220 & 221 have Speed 2, standard is 3.

B-10 RCL (and derivatives) – China 631 & 632 and Mozambique 22 have Size 1, standard is 0.

B-11 RCL – Iraq 242, Mujahadeen 266 and Afghanistan 266 have Size 0, standard is 1.
Zimbabwe 55 has Crew 7, all others have 6.
Libya 259 and Bulgaria 322 have Speed 1, Cuba 338, Zimbabwe 55 and Mozambique 23 have 2, standard is 3.
Cuba 338 has Load Cost 1, all others have 0.

M40 106mm RCL – Jordan 74, Iraq 810, Netherlands 358 and Nigeria 343 have Size 0, standard is 1.
Jordan 74 and S.Africa 72-75 have Crew 4, standard is 6.
Zimbabwe 56 has Speed 2, all others have 3.

M59 RCL – Czech 377 has Speed 0. AFAIK it carries no particular weight penalty, and it is wheeled.

120mm Mobat – Jordan 73 has Crew 4, standard is 6.

Class 157 – Light AT Gun

76.2mm ZiS-3 – Cyprus 266 has Crew 5 and Load Cost 1, standard is 6/3.

106mm M40 RCL - Malaysia 220 & 221 have Speed 2, standard is 3.

Class 158 – Heavy AT Gun

Ukraine 585 has Start Date 1/3. Should maybe be 1/103?
If this and 584 are the same gun ‘family’ as the Russian Sprut, they have Size 1, Speed 0 and RoF 5, Russian versions have 2, 3 and 6.

2A29 – Bosnia 423 has Crew 6, standard is 8.

90mm M40 – Spain 160 has Crew 8, Italy 166 has 10. The only other example I can find (Argentina 219) has 8.

Richard H

Richard_H

December 3rd, 2011, 09:57 AM

Off-Map Artillery

Class 10 – Off-Map Field Artillery

Uruguay 613 has a Survivability rating.

Bosnia 377 has a Lift Capacity.

UK 198 has an Armour rating (Steel Top).

57 units have a Load Cost. Probably cosmetic.

Poland 178, Russia 811, Canada 388 & 390, Cyprus 97 and Sweden 462 have AP rounds.

76mm M1936 – Poland 500 has RoF 8, standard is 7.

76mm ZiS-3 – Egypt 181 has RoF 8, standard is 7.

3 inch Naval – Norway 301 & 302 have RoF 7, Netherlands 146 and Norway 303 have 8, standard is 9.

76mm Naval – Poland 183 has RoF 6, standard is 9.

25-Pdr – Tanzania 225 and Uganda 225 have RoF 6, standard is 7.

100mm Naval – Norway 299 & 300 and Bulgaria 180 have RoF 7, Poland 180, Italy155, E.Germany 180 and Romania 180 have 9, standard is 8.

122mm D-30 – Egypt 183 has RoF 7, standard is 6.

127mm/5 inch Naval – France 568 and Chile 162 have RoF 6, NVA 599, Italy 158 and Brazil 161 have 8, standard is 7.

130mm Naval – E.Germany 181 has RoF 8, Poland 182 has 9, standard is 7.

152mm Naval – E.Germany 182 has RoF 5, standard is 6.

155mm M777 – Poland 171 and Canada 387 have RoF 6, Poland 178 has 7, standard is 4.

320mm Naval – Spain 140 has RoF 4, Italy 163 has 6.

Class 155 – Off-Map Medium Artillery

Uganda 229 & 231 and Uruguay 390 have a Size rating.

USA 526-529, 535-538 & 803-805, Australia 201 and Somalia 233 & 234 have a Lift Capacity.

Iraq 183, Spain 132, Italy 142, Czech 369, Brazil 171, Cuba 271, Algeria 143, 144 & 146, Switzerland 839, 840, 860 & 861, Thailand 368 & 369, Angola 228, 229 & 232, Sweden 450, 452 & 453, Nicaragua 172, Somalia 232, Tanzania 232 & 233 and Uganda 228 & 229 have a Load Cost.

Libya 178, Brazil 171 and Switzerland 839, 840 860 & 861 have Survivability ratings.

Switzerland 839, 840 860 & 861 have Stabiliser ratings.

Cuba 271 has a Rangefinder rating.

47 units have AP rounds. Would you like me to list them?

Switzerland 610 & 739 have sabot rounds.

Libya 178, Brazil 171 and Switzerland 860 & 861 have Armour ratings.

122mm M1937 – N.Korea 645 & 646 have RoF 4, standard is 6.

130mm M46 – Egypt 184 has RoF 7, standard is 5.

149mm Mo.35 – Italy 133 has RoF 4, standard is 5.

152mm D-1 – Egypt 185 has RoF 4, standard is 5.

155mm M777 – USA 512 has RoF 6, standard is 4.

Class 156 – Off-Map Heavy Artillery

Paraguay 203 is the only unit with a Size rating.

Gulf 508, Belgium 159, Brazil 177, Cuba 275 & 276, Algeria 149-151, Switzerland 627 & 771, Angola 234 & 235, Nigeria 238, Sweden 457 & 464, Lebanon 284, 287 & 288, Eritrea 235, Peru 173, Tanzania 234 & 235 and Paraguay 201 have a Load Cost.

Gulf 508, Yugoslavia 571 & 572, Brazil 175 & 177, Switzerland 627 & 771, Croatia 572, Nigeria 238, Sweden 459 and Lebanon 286 are the only units with Survivability ratings.

Iraq 843, Yugoslavia 385 & 386, Cambodia 180 and Croatia 385 & 386 have Lift Capacity 3, all others have 0.

Switzerland 627 & 771 are the only units with FC, Stabiliser and Rangefinder ratings.

Switzerland 627 is armoured, but off-map.

Gulf 508, Brazil 175 & 177 and Sweden 459 also have (Steel) armour ratings.

Crews vary, but this would be (I think, correct me if I’m wrong) a purely cosmetic exercise. Fine when we’ve nothing better to do.

24 units have AP rounds.

152mm D-1 – Poland 176, 186 & 502 have RoF 4, standard is 5.

152mm D-20 – Czech 506 has RoF 4, standard is 5.

155mm L/52 – Poland 759 has RoF 8, standard for this weapon is 6.

175mm M113 – USA 812 has RoF 3, standard is 4.

203mm – Russia 188, Czech 507 and Kenya 95 have RoF 2, standard for 203mm is 3.

I note that Turkey 148, Yugoslavia 571 & 572, Croatia 572 and Portugal 228 are in this class rather than Class 10.

Class 211 – Off-Map Minelet Battery

S.Korea 163 has RoF 3, all others have 1.

Richard H

Richard_H

December 3rd, 2011, 10:29 AM

Marcello

December 3rd, 2011, 11:23 AM

Footnote to Class 10 is that I rather think (and it's only a think without my reference books) that 320mm is a spurious calibre for the Spanish Navy. Their last battleships de-commissioned in 1937.

Richard H

IIRC they kept some heavy caliber guns in coastal batteries for quite a long time after that.

3 inch Naval – Norway 301 & 302 have RoF 7, Netherlands 146 and Norway 303 have 8, standard is 9

Well it depends on which type of 3inch it actually is. It can go from WW2 style guns firing 15-20 RPM to modern turrents capable of 120 RPM and all the ROFs in between.

Pibwl

December 3rd, 2011, 02:35 PM

Footnote to Class 10 is that I rather think (and it's only a think without my reference books) that 320mm is a spurious calibre for the Spanish Navy. Their last battleships de-commissioned in 1937.

Richard H

IIRC they kept some heavy caliber guns in coastal batteries for quite a long time after that.

"De-commissioned" is maybe not a proper term for Spanish battleships, since they both sunk in 1937, on both sides of the civil war ;-) Moreover, they had 305 mm guns, not 320 mm.

I don't know how about coastal batteries, but I think, that they are rather not relevant to land combat, especially that they usually point at sea only.

Michal

Pibwl

December 3rd, 2011, 03:26 PM

SP ATGM

BRDM-2 – Egypt 351 and Algeria 337 have Speed 36 and Swim Speed 2, all others have 32 and 3.
Iraq 226 & 227, Cuba 98 & 99, Angola 295, Nicaragua 470 and Tanzania 295 have Size 2, all others have 3.

BRDM-2 – Iraq 260 & 261, N.Korea 33 & 34 and Cambodia 525 are Size 2, all others are 3.

Speed 32/3 is correct (95/9 km/h). Size 3 seems proper - it was somewhat bigger, than M113.

BRDM-1 – Russia 380-382 are Size 2, all others are 3.

I'd say rather 3... It is a size of BTR-40.

though it's a surprisingly low machine, when I saw it in a museum that summer (and even climbed it ;) - 190 cm.

Michal

Marcello

December 3rd, 2011, 03:51 PM

I don't know how about coastal batteries, but I think, that they are rather not relevant to land combat, especially that they usually point at sea only.
Michal

It depends on the emplacement costruction. In many cases they were mounted on rotating turrets with good fields of fire.
These for example could train on 300°. http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNSpain_15-45_mkB.htm
In any case IIRC these guns can only be used during naval landings type scenarios, so they would already be restricted.

Richard_H

December 4th, 2011, 11:36 AM

Single artillery pieces.

I don’t know whether it’s a game convention (can’t find it in the GG), but very few units in the ‘single artillery piece’ classes (9, 154, 184, 196) have FC and Rangefinder ratings. I’ve listed them in each class, just in case. There are also very few with a third weapon; I haven’t listed these, but it would be no problem to do so.

Class 9 – Field Gun

Poland 540, Pakistan 92, Belgium 280 and Denmark 86 are the only units with FC ratings.

Poland 540, Jordan 90, Australia 206 & 207, Gulf 100, Pakistan 92, 96 & 100, Belgium 280, Norway 82 & 83, Canada 266, Greece 146, Denmark 86, Czech 368, Libya 103, S.Africa 78, Saudi 100, Sudan 97 & 106, Portugal 82, Malaysia 140 and N.Yemen 100 & 107 are the only units with a Rangefinder rating.

Switzerland 801 has no primary weapon – Weapon 125 is blank. Weapon 112 would serve.

65mm L/17 – Syria 80 has Load Cost 3 and RoF 7, standards are 2/8.

73mm SPG-9 – Hungary 378 & 379 have Crew 3 and Load Cost 1, standards are 6/0.

75mm M1897 – Syria 81 has Crew 4, standard is 6.
Cambodia 89 has Speed 1, standard for this class is 0.
Lebanon 97 has Load Cost 2, Romania 308 and Cambodia 89 have 3, Syria 81 has 4, standard in other classes (and in WW2) is 1.

75mm L/18 (Schneider?) – Spain 115 has Speed 1 and Load Cost 2, Italy 120 has 0/1.

75mm Krupp – Green 69, Argentina 65 and Chile 65 have Crew 8, standard is 6.

75mm M8 – Cambodia 90 has Crew 6, Green 70, Brazil 65, Chile 66 and El Salvador 70 have 8, standard in other classes is 5. They all also have Speed 0 (standard in other classes is 2) and Load Cost 3 (standard in other classes is 1).

76.2mm ZiS-3 – Yugoslavia 345-347, Bosnia 341 and Croatia 341 have Crew 7, standard is 6.
Red 255, Cyprus 83 & 570, Finland 154 and Mozambique 40 have Load Cost 1, Yugoslavia 345-347, Bosnia 341 and Croatia 341 have 4, standard is 3.
Egypt 95 has RoF 8, standard is 7.

82mm B-10 – Hungary 376 has Crew 4 and Load Cost 1, standards are 6 & 0.

25-Pdr – Jordan 90, S.Africa 78 and Kenya 85 have Crew 8, standard is 6.
Cyprus 571, S.Africa 78, Kenya 85 and Mozambique 39 have Load Cost 1, Belgium 280 has 4, standard is 3.
Tanzania 85 and Uganda 85 have RoF 6, standard is 7.

85mm M52 – Czech 368 has Speed 1, standard in other (AT) classes is 0.

85mm D-44 – Pakistan 96 has Speed 1, standard is 0.
Mozambique 41 has Load Cost 2, standard is 3.

105mm Modele 13 – Romania 310 and 320 have Size 2, standard from WW2 is 1.

10.5cm K18 – Brazil 66 and Bulgaria 361 have Load Cost 0, standard for 105mm is 3.

10.5cm leFH 18 (and leFH 16) – Norway 78 & 79 have Size 1, standard is 2.

105mm M56 – Cyprus 85 and Malaysia 142 have Crew 5, Australia 207 and Nigeria 88 have 7, Yugoslavia 350 & 351 and Argentina 68 have 8, standard is 6.
Argentina 68, Cyprus 85, Malaysia 142 and Somalia 87 have Speed 1. Whilst this is standard for Pack Howitzer classes, the standard here is 0.
Somalia 87 has Load Cost 2, UK 428, Australia 207, Pakistan 97 and Nigeria 88 have 3, Yugoslavia 350 & 351 have 4, standard is 1.

105mm L118/M119 – Spain 118 has Size 3, standard is 1.
USA 88 and Spain 118 have Crew 8, Turkey 128 and Kenya 88 & 90 have 7, standard is 6.
USA 88 and Kenya 88 & 90 have Load Cost 1, Spain 118 has 4, standard is 3.

105mm M101/102 – Iran 100, Iraq 87, Pakistan 99, Canada 267, W.Germany 166 and Austria 209, 210 & 215 have Crew 6, Uruguay 333 & 334 have 9, standard is 8.
Jordan 92 has Speed 1, standard is 0.
Yugoslavia 349, Bosnia 342 and Croatia 345 have Load Cost 4, Jordan 92 and Mozambique 43 have 2, USA 87 has 1, standard is 3.

107mm B-11 – Hungary 377 has Crew 5, standard is 6. It also has Load Cost 1, standard is 0.
Poland 377 and Hungary 377 have Speed 1, standard is 3.
Poland 377 has RoF 5, standard is 6.

122mm M31/37 – N.Korea 643 has Size 3, standard is 2. It also has RoF 4, standard is 6.
Albania 75 has Crew 7, standard is 8.
Red 259, Cuba 87, Angola 91, Lebanon 102, Tanzania 90 and Uganda 91 have Load Cost 0, Finland 161 has 3, standard is 4.

122mm M-30 (M1938) – Poland 91 & 92, Czech 91 and Hungary 91 have Size 3, standard is 2.
Albania 76 has Crew 7, S.Yemen 101 has 6, Zimbabwe 75 has 12, standard is 8.
Zimbabwe 75 has Load Cost 2, Egypt 96, Iraq 88, Mujahadeen 57, Afghanistan 57, Libya 98, Red 257, Ethiopia 98, S.Yemen 101 and Mozambique 44 have 3, Yugoslavia 352 & 353 have 5, standard is 4.

122mm D-74 – Iraq 90, Cuba 88 and Nigeria 92 have Crew 7, standard is 8.
Russia 224 has Load Cost 3, standard is 4.

122mm D-30 – Czech 92 and Hungary 92 have Size 3, Finland 162 has 1, standard is 2.
Crews are 7 or 8, fairly evenly split.
Tanzania 91 has Load Cost 0, Iran 101, Mujahadeen 59, Afghanistan 59, Libya 99, Ethiopia 99, Finland 160 & 162 and Mozambique 45 have 3, Yugoslavia 354 and Croatia 354 have 5, standard is 4.
Egypt 97 has RoF 7, standard is 6.

130mm M46 – Red 261 and Finland 164 & 165 have Size 3, PLO 104 has 1, standard is 2.
Israel 225, Thailand 88, Eritrea 90 and Somalia 91 have Crew 9, standard is 8. They also have Load Cost 4, standard is 3.
Egypt 98 has RoF 7, standard is 5.

5.5 Inch – Pakistan 101 and Portugal 90 have Size 1, Sudan 108 and S.Yemen 104 have 3, standard is 2.
India 94 and Pakistan 101 have Crew 8, Portugal 90 and Zimbabwe 78 have 11, standard is 9.
India 94 and Pakistan 101 have Load Cost 3, standard is 4.

15cm sFH 18 – Brazil 73 has Size 2 and Crew 9, standards are 3/11.

152mm Type 66 – Albania 80 has Crew 8, standard is 11.

152mm ML-20 – Finland 167 has Load Cost 3, standard is 4.
N.Korea 644 has RoF 4, standard is 5.

152mm D-1 – Mozambique 47 has Size 2, standard is 3.
Mozambique 47 has Crew 10, Algeria 135 has 11, Bulgaria 373 has 12, standard is 8.
Bulgaria 373 has Load Cost 3, Viet Cong 146 & 148 have 5, standard is 4.
Egypt 99 and Russia 425 have RoF 4, standard is 5.

152mm D-20 – Angola 95 has Size 1, Slovakia 46 has 2, standard is 3.
Slovakia 46 has Crew 7, Russia 466, E.Germany 36 and Nicaragua 74 have 10, standard is 8.
Nicaragua 74 has Load Cost 0, Finland 170 has 3, Viet Cong 147 has 5, standard is 4.

152mm 2A36 – Finland 171 has Crew 8 and Load Cost 3, standards are 10/4.

155mm TR F1 – Taiwan 92 has Size 0, standard is 3.
France 418 and Taiwan 92 have Crew 7, Cyprus 87 & 88 have 8. I believe 8 is correct, but without reference to Foss or Hogg, I can’t confirm it.
Taiwan 92 has Load Cost 0, France 418 has 4, others have 3.
Cyprus 87 has RoF 6, standard is 4.

155mm FH-70 – Turkey 132 has Crew 11, standard is 8 or 9. It also has Load Cost 2, standard is 4.

155mm FH-77 – Nigeria 97 & 98 have Crew 12 and Load Cost 0, standards are 8/4.

155mm G-5 – Iraq 94 has Size 3 and Crew 8, standards are 2/11.

155mm M2 – Jordan 94 and Pakistan 102 & 103 have Size 2, Denmark 88 has 1, standard is 3.
S.Korea 91 and Taiwan 91 have Load Cost 0, standard is 4.

155mm M114 – Jordan 95 has Size 2, standard is 3.
Libya 104 has Crew 8, USA 89 has 12, standard is 11.
USA 89 has Load Cost 3, standard is 4.

155mm M198 – USA 90 and Iraq 844 have Crew 12, standard is 11. They also have Load Cost 3, standard is 4.

155mm M777 – Poland 224 has Crew 6, standard is 11 (USMC) or 12 (USA/Canada). It also has RoF 7, standard is 4.

180mm S-23 – India 97 has Crew 12, standard is 10.
Egypt 101 has RoF 5, standard is 4.

Richard H

Richard_H

December 4th, 2011, 11:37 AM

The other single artillery pieces.

Class 154 – Howitzer

Poland 380 and Belgium 450 are the only units with a FC and Rangefinder rating.

Belgium 450 is the only Size 0 unit.

Viet Cong 139 is called ‘105mm Type 91’. However it has a 75mm weapon as primary armament. The Type 91 would need to be imported from WW2.

Bulgaria 355 is Size 3, 75mm pieces (the nearest apart from Belgium 450) are Size 1.

Belgium 450 has Load Cost 2, Bulgaria 355 has 3, Belgium 451 has 4, other 75mm pieces have 1.

122mm M-30 – Spain 120 has Size 3, others have 2.

122mm D-30 – Bosnia 354 has Crew 7, standard is 8.

Indonesia 78 is Size 4, other 122mm pieces are Size 2.

Class 184 – Airborne Field Howitzer

NVA 398 has FC and Rangefinder ratings. However, unlike others in other classes, it’s more like a secondary light AT piece.

Class 196 – Pack Howitzer

USMC 805, Mujahadeen 53 and Czech 540 are the only units with FC and Rangefinder ratings.

73mm SPG-9 – Viet Cong 116 has Size 1, standard is 0.
Sudan 285 and Uganda 345 have Speed 1, Viet Cong 116 has 5, standard in this class is 4.

75mm M8 – El Salvador 165 and Nicaragua 165 have Speed 1, standard is 2.

75mm Schneider – Spain 111 has RoF 6, Italy 126 has 7. Standard for 75mm in this class is 7.

75mm M20 (and derivatives) – N.Korea 556, Albania 57, Angola 346, Cambodia 557, Sudan 286, Rhodesia 207 and Tanzania 350 have Size 0, standard for this class is 1.
S.Korea 76 has Crew 4, standard for this class is 6.
Sudan 286, El Salvador 167 and Nicaragua 167 have Speed 1, N.Yemen 288 has 2, China 401, N.Korea 556, S.Korea 76, Taiwan 76, Cambodia 557 and Rhodesia 207 have 4, standard is 3.

76.2mm M1938 – Albania 55 has Crew 6 and Load Cost 0, standard is 5/1.

82mm B-10 (and derivatives) – PLO 120, China 402 & 403, Viet Cong 118, Zimbabwe 50 and Mozambique 165 have Size 1, all others have 0.
Sudan 287 and Uganda 347 have Speed 1, Algeria 110 and Chad 110 have 2, Viet Cong 118 has 4, standard is 3.

84mm Carl Gustav – N.Yemen 287 has Speed 3, Mujahadeen 54, Libya 93, Angola 348 and Sudan 284 have 4, standard is 6.

90mm M67 – S.Korea 77 has Crew 4, standard for this class is 6.
El Salvador 168 has Speed 1, Saudi 288 has 2, standard for this class is 3.

105mm M56 – Saudi 286, Sudan 283, N.Yemen 286, Ecuador 164, El Salvador 166 and Nicaragua 166 have Crew 6, standard is 5. They also have Load Cost 2, standard is 1.
Nigeria 351 has Speed 0, Green 166 has 2, standard is 1.

106mm M40 RCL – Nigeria 350 has Size 0, standard is 1.
Algeria 111, Chad 111 and Nicaragua 168 have Speed 1, Malaysia 137 and Zimbabwe 52 have 2, Nigeria 350 has 4, standard is 3.

107mm B-11 – Afghanistan 54, Libya 94, Angola 349, Ethiopia 91 and Eritrea 102 have Size 0, standard is 1.
Uganda 349 has Crew 8, standard is 6.
Uganda 349 has Speed 1, Viet Cong 119, Zimbabwe 51 and Mozambique 166 have 2, standard is 3.

Richard H

DRG

December 4th, 2011, 12:55 PM

I don't know how about coastal batteries, but I think, that they are rather not relevant to land combat, especially that they usually point at sea only.

Michal

I guess you've forgotten that the game includes beach assault landings making coastal batteries relevant though not in the case of that particular gun.

Don

Pibwl

December 4th, 2011, 04:15 PM

I guess you've forgotten that the game includes beach assault landings making coastal batteries relevant though not in the case of that particular gun.

I admit I forgot - never played one. Although, guns of such caliber usually were pointed towards sea only...

Michal

DRG

December 4th, 2011, 04:55 PM

Try one in winter in the north for unique autogenerated maps.

Don

DRG

December 5th, 2011, 04:55 PM

Off-Map Artillery

Class 10 – Off-Map Field Artillery

Poland 178, Russia 811, Canada 388 & 390, Cyprus 97 and Sweden 462 have AP rounds.

AP rounds = Cluster Munitions in any arty class

Suhiir

December 5th, 2011, 05:37 PM

I don’t know whether it’s a game convention (can’t find it in the GG), but very few units in the ‘single artillery piece’ classes (9, 154, 184, 196) have FC and Rangefinder ratings.

Artillery pieces aren't given FC/RF ratings.
Anti-tank guns are.

FC/RF have little (if any) effect on indirect fire in WinSPMBT.

Now artillery pieces that are commonly used as AT-Guns (i.e. the Soviet 76mm Zis3) are often given FC/RF ratings to reflect their dual use role.

Mobhack

December 6th, 2011, 11:31 AM

OFF-map artillery has no need for fire control or range finders. Those have no role in purely indirect fire.

ON-map field artillery pieces that might want to plink at tanks etc. for a brief moment before inevitably dying, may have them of course.

Andy

Richard_H

December 9th, 2011, 12:04 PM

@ Don - doh: I must be getting figure-crazy!

@ Andy - yup, it includes all the usual suicidal suspects:)

Richard H

Richard_H

December 9th, 2011, 12:06 PM

The Self-Propelled stuff.

Class 18 – Assault Gun

SU-76M – Russia 471 and Bulgaria 22 have Steel TR 2, standard is 1.

SU-85 – N.Yemen 50 has Speed 17, standard is 19.

SU-100 – Afghanistan 315-318, Angola 33 and S.Yemen 41 have Speed 19, standard is 17.

SU-100M – Iraq 346 has Survivability 4, standard is 3.

ISU-122 - Iraq 347 & 348 have Size 5, others have 4.
Viet Cong 35 has Survivability 5, standard is 3. It also has Armour 14/10/7/12/10/7/3, standard is 14/9/8/9/8/8/3.

Archer – S.Yemen 40 has Size 4 and Survivability 4, standards are 3/3.

M10 Achilles – Belgium 390 & 391 have Size 5 and Survivability 4, standard is 4/3.

M18 Hellcat – Yugoslavia 26 has Survivability 3, standard is 4.

M36 Jackson – Belgium 392 has Survivability 3, standard is 4.

Class 21 – Self-Propelled Artillery

75mm M20 (and derivatives) – Viet Cong 45 has RoF 6, standard is 7.

107mm B-11 – Uganda 63 has RoF 7, standard is 6.

M77 Dana – Czech 541 has Survivability 5, standard is 4.

AMX Mk.61 – Netherlands 76 has Speed 22, standard is 17.

AMX Mk.F3 – Netherlands 77 has Crew 4, all others have 8.
France 47 and Sudan 237 have Survivability 4, standard is 3.
France 47 and Gulf 235 have Steel TF 4, standard is 2.

AUF-1 – Gulf 239, Iraq 357 and Saudi 238 have RoF 4, standard is 6.

Krab – Poland 37 has RoF 8. Nearest comparison is the UK AS-90, which has 4.

Koksan 170mm – Iran 46 has Size 5, standard is 6. It also has RoF 4, standard is 2.

SU-76 – N.Korea 275 has TR Armour 2, standard is 1.

2S1 Gvozdika – Sudan 238 has Size 5, standard is 4. It also has Speed/Swim Speed 18/0, standard is 21/2. Although some forums call the Abu Fatima a licence-built version, according to SIPRI they are a straight purchase from Belarus. This would make the armour rating spurious (it would be correct if the story of a D-30 turret on a T-55 chassis could be verified).
Finland 327 has Survivability 3, standard is 4.
Sudan 238 has RoF 5, standard is 6.
Russia 500 has Hull Armour 2/1/1, standard is 3/2/1.

2S3 Akatsiya – Russia 501-503 have Speed 20, standard is 18. They also have RoF 4, standard is 5.
Bulgaria 40 has Survivability 3, NVA 40 and Cuba 211 have 5, standard is 4.
Russia 501-503 have Steel TF 3, standard is 4.

2S5 Giatsint – Ukraine 505 has Speed 18, standard is 21. It also has Armour 2/1/1/2/1/1/1, standard is 3/1/1/3/1/1/0.

2S7 Pion – Poland 38 has Size 5, standard is 6.
Russia 812 and Kenya 61 have RoF 2, others have 3.

Bkv 151 – Sweden 414 has RoF 14. Should it be 4?

3.7” Portee – Egypt 335 has RoF 7, Sudan 235 has 6. Standard from WW2 is 6.

Sexton – India 104, Tanzania 60 and Uganda 60 have RoF 6, standard is 7.

Jeep (and derivatives) – Libya 365, Cambodia 276-279 and Uganda 61-63 have Size 3, standard is 2.

M12 GMC – Taiwan 37 has Survivability 3, standard is 4.

M37 – USA 511 has Survivability 3, Spain 76 has 4.

M40 – France 35 has Size 8, Italy 70 has 4, standard is 6.
Italy 70 has Survivability 3, standard is 2.
France 35 has Armour 7/3/1/2/1/1/0, Italy 70 has 6/4/4/3/2/2/1, standard is 9/4/4/3/2/2/0.

M44 – W.Germany 116 has Size 4, Jordan 302 has 5, standard is 6.
Italy 72 has Survivability 3, standard is 4.

M52 – Italy 71 has Size 4, Turkey 86 has 6, standard is 5.
Portugal 34 has Survivability 3, standard is 4.
W.Germany 115 has Armour 20/9/5/2/1/1/1, Japan 61 and Portugal 34 have 2/1/1/2/1/1/1, standard is 4/2/2/2/1/1/1.

M55 – Belgium 43 has Size 4, USMC 39 has 5, standard is 6.
W.Germany 117 has Armour 20/9/5/2/1/1/1, standard is 4/2/2/2/1/1/1.

M107 – NVA 41 has Survivability 2, Greece 95, Turkey 93, Spain 83, Italy 74 and W.Germany 101 have 3, standard is 4.
USMC 878 has RoF 3, standard is 4. It also has no ‘turret’ armour, standard is 4/3/3/0.
Netherlands 78, Greece 95 and Spain 83 have Top Armour 1, standard is 0.

M108 – USA 36 and Australia 336 have no Swim Speed, standard is 2. They also have Survivability 3, standard is 4.
NVA 42 and ARVN 22 have Top Armour 1, standard is 2.

M109 – Denmark 40 has RoF 6, standard is 4.

M109A2/A3 – Portugal 35 & 36 have Survivability 3, standard is 4.
Denmark 41 has RoF 6, Israel 516 has 5, standard is 4.

M110/M110A1 – Belgium 44, Netherlands 83, Greece 98 and W.Germany 104 have Survivability 3, Taiwan 44 has 5, standard is 4.
Japan 56 has Top Armour 1, standard is 0.
USMC 879 has no ‘Turret’ armour, standard is 4/3/3.

M110A2 – Pakistan 217, Netherlands 84, Greece 97, Turkey 95, Spain 84 and W.Germany 105 have Survivability 3, standard is 4.
Japan 57 and Turkey 95 have Top Armour 1, standard is 0.

Class 39 – SP Gun

82mm B-10 – E.Germany 720 has RoF 9, standard is 7.

107mm Rocket – Mujahadeen 146 has RoF 1, Afghanistan 155 has 9. Both have the same primary weapon.

BRDM-2 – Afghanistan 154 has RoF 9, standard for the AT-3 is 4.

ISU-122 – Sizes are split almost evenly: Poland 709 & 710, Iraq 572 & 573 and Red 512 have 5, NVA 409 & 410, Hungary 25 and Viet Cong 25 have 4.
NVA 409 & 410 and Viet Cong 25 have Survivability 5, standard is 3.
Poland 709 & 710 have RoF 5, standard is 6.
Viet Cong 25 has Armour 14/10/7/12/10/7/3, Poland 709 & 710 have 19/9/9/10/8/6/3 (same as ISU-152), standard is 14/9/8/9/8/8/3.

ISU-152 – Poland 27 and Iraq 574 have Size 5, standard is 4.
Syria 302 has Survivability 5, standard is 3.

SU-76 – Poland 704, China 510 and N.Korea 460 have Steel TR 2, others have 1.

SU-85 – E.Germany 24 and Algeria 525 have 9/6/6/8/6/4/2, Czech 24 has 10/6/6/9/6/4/2, Poland 705 and Red 509 have 8/6/6/9/5/5/2, which is the standard for my version (I’m missing the latest patch) of WW2. My
suspicion is that once it’s run through AP Calc, the E.German figure will be the closest.
I’m not mentioning Load Costs (10-29).

SU-100 – E.Germany 26 and Viet Cong 28 have Speed 15, Viet Cong 27 has 19, standard is 17. I suspect the first two are SU-100Ms, as they have the 14.5mm AAMG.
Viet Cong 27 & 28 have Survivability 4, standard is 3.

SU-100M – Syria 300 has Speed 17, standard is 15.
Algeria 527 has Survivability 4, standard is 3.

Archer – Gulf 490 has Size 4 and Survivability 4, standards are 3/3.

Jeep RCL (including GAZ/UAZ) – Nigeria 220, Eritrea 220-222, Tanzania 220 & 221 and Uganda 220, 222 & 223 have Swim Speeds. No other Jeeps have this.
S.Yemen 226 & 227, Eritrea 220-222 and the Ugandan units have Speed 29, Denmark 337 has 21, Argentina 84 has 26, standard is 24.
Libya 225, Tanzania 220 & 221 and Uganda 220, 222 & 223 have Size 3, standard is 2.

M10 Achilles – Egypt 321 has Armour 6/3/3/8/3/3/0, standard is 7/3/2/9/3/3/0.

M36 Jackson – Iran 414 and Italy 34 have Size 5, standard is 4. They also have Speed 15, standard is 16.

M113 RCL – S.Korea 451-453 have the AAMG in Weapon Slot 1, but retain RoF 6.
Pakistan 206 (same platform) has Size 2, standard is 3.

Class 130 – Self-Propelled Howitzer

Abbot – UK 401 has Size 4, Libya 355 has 5.

Jeep RCL – Nigeria 371 & 372 have Size 3, standard is 2.
Jordan 298 has Speed 21, standard is 24.

Sexton – S.Yemen 235 has RoF 6, standard is 7.

Class 139 – Self-Propelled Gun

UK 238 & 239 have Nation 0. 239 is a template unit.

Richard H

DRG

December 9th, 2011, 12:58 PM

.....apparetly you are not set up to receive PMs.......

Pibwl

December 9th, 2011, 01:35 PM

2S1 Gvozdika – Sudan 238 has Size 5, standard is 4. It also has Speed/Swim Speed 18/0, standard is 21/2.

By the way, Gvozdika shouldn't carry any AAMG.

Michal

DRG

December 9th, 2011, 04:20 PM

Richard_H

December 9th, 2011, 04:22 PM

Don, PM received and responded to.

Richard H

Pibwl

December 9th, 2011, 04:38 PM

Well the Russian one doesn't have it so why not tell me which OOB you are looking at so I don't have to guess?? MAYBE it's Sudan... maybe not...IDK and *MAYBE* the Abu Fatima-1 is a Gvozdika but that's not the Gvozdika Icon, it's a PTZ-89 so maybe it does carry a AAMG becasue the Chinese one does.

Sorry - most Gvozdikas in oobs that I've examined in detail already had AAMG, so I thought it was a common mistake. Anyway, I thought, that this is the thread for mass anomalies through oobs, so it's a good place to report this one. There is AAMG in Polish, Czech, Hungarian, Libyan, East German (SFL M-1974), Yugoslavian and maybe also other oobs.

I didn't refer to Fatima-1 at all.

Regards,
Michal

DRG

December 9th, 2011, 04:38 PM

Didn't get it.....

Don

OK Got it now..........

DRG

December 9th, 2011, 04:41 PM

Sorry - most Gvozdikas in oobs that I've examined in detail already had AAMG, so I thought it was a common mistake. Anyway, I thought, that this is the thread for mass anomalies through oobs, so it's a good place to report this one. There is AAMG in Polish, Czech, Hungarian, Libyan, East German (SFL M-1974), Yugoslavian and maybe also other oobs.

I didn't refer to Fatima-1 at all.

Regards,
Michal

Richard referred to it and I first checked the country of origin and it didn't have one so rather than make more work than I need I thought it best to point out that to get things fixed I need clear information

Don

DRG

December 9th, 2011, 04:57 PM

2S1 Gvozdika – Sudan 238 has Size 5, standard is 4. It also has Speed/Swim Speed 18/0, standard is 21/2.

I'm spending way too much time on this but after reviewing what we had that unit ( Sudan 238 ) IS NOT a Gvozdika. It's **REPORTEDLY** a cobbled together vehicle from D-30 artillery pieces mounted on T-54/55 chassis and that Icon was used because it's rarely used anywhere else and was "close enough" for something no photos seem to exist.......and it just might have an AAMG.... or not...but it's not a Gvozdika but since it's a gun mounted on a t-55 size five is "close enough".

However, I have noted the issue with the Gvozdika AAMG's but I can assure everyone there is NO way all of these issues will be addressed one way or the other before the next release.

Don

Richard_H

December 10th, 2011, 12:27 PM

Sorry about that one, forgot to check the icon.

Armoured Cars etc. BTW I'm working on the premise that all vehicles should still be at least Weight 10.

Class 11 – Armoured Cars

Israel 90 & 91, Turkey 49, S.Africa 12 & 13, Switzerland 897, Cambodia 485, Nigeria 285, Finland 365 & 366 and Indonesia 474 & 478 have Load Cost less than 10.

Switzerland 872 has RoF 3, standard is 9.

Italy 40 has Crew 1. I think the correct figure is 3.

EE-3 Jaracara – Cyprus 21 has Speed 28, standard is 34.

EE-9 Cascavel – Green 55-57, Ecuador 52 and Paraguay 21 have Speed 20, standard is 28.

Marmon-Herrington – Egypt 259 has a third weapon, but no ammunition.

BTR-60 – Cuba 306 has RoF 9, standard is 6.

V-150 – Portugal 339 has Crew 1, standard is 3.

Class 32 – Scout Vehicle

Poland 400, 699 & 724, France 71, USA 326 & 328, USMC 550, China 461, Australia 56, Iraq 289, India 220, Pakistan 64, Netherlands 45-47, Canada 169, Greece 625 & 626, Spain 190 & 191, Italy 216-219, Denmark 344, Czech 400, Hungary 398, Green 303, Switzerland 52, Cambodia 496, Chile 298 & 299, Nigeria 308 and Peru 298 have Load Cost less than 10.

YJL – Egypt 483 has RoF 90, standard is 9.

AB3 Black Iris – Jordan 345 has RoF 6, standard is 9.

BRDM-2 Szakal – Poland 579 has HEAT Armour 33 all round. Seems a lot without a speed reduction for weight.

Santana Anibal – Spain 610 & 611 have RoF 0, standards are 9 & 4 respectively.

Humber Scout – France 72 has Speed 24, Norway 25 has 30.

Daimler Dingo – Kenya 303 and Tanzania 303 have Armour 4/1/2/3/1/2/0, standard is 1/1/1/1/1/1/0.

Land-Rover – PLO 312, Mujahadeen 292 and Afghanistan 292 have RoF 6, standard is 9.

Shorland – Malaysia 16 has Size 4 and Speed 18, standards are 2/24.
Thailand 289 has Survivability 1, others have 4.

M3 Halftrack – Iran 451 and Gulf 308 have Speed 18, standard is 24.

M8 Greyhound – Uruguay 415 has Speed 27, standard is 20.

WC.52 – ARVN 142 has RoF 6, standard is 9.

Lynx – Canada 169 has Armour 7/4/2/7/4/2/1, standard is 4/3/2/4/3/2/1.

Class 57 – FO Vehicle

USMC 226, Australia 229, India 256, Pakistan 234, Turkey 216 & 219, Spain 307 & 308, S.Africa 381, Thailand 215, Ethiopia 544 and Sweden 76, 77 & 109 have Load Cost less than 10.

W.Germany 123 has RoF 6, standard is 9.

Observation Truck – Jordan 415 and Saudi 315 have RoF 6, standard is 9.

BRM-23 – Bulgaria 201 has RoF 4, standard is 8.

AMX-10 – Iraq 396 has Speed 24, Chile 225 has 25, standard is 21.

UAZ-469 – Cuba 391, Algeria 470, Angola 391, Nigeria 391, Eritrea 391 and Uganda 391 have RoF 6, standard for AAMG is 9.

Daimler Dingo – Ethiopia 546 has Armour 4/1/2/3/1/2/0, standard is 1/1/1/1/1/1/0.

Ferret – UK 302, Green 227 and Malaysia 72 have Size 4, standard is 2.

Spartan – Belgium 224 has RoF 4, standard is 9.

Jeep – Kenya 391 has RoF 6, standard is 9.

M3 Halftrack – Iran 472 and Gulf 317 have Speed 18, standard is 24.

M4 Sherman – France 538 has RoF 7, standard is 9.

M577 – Spain 310 & 312 have Size 4, Speed 31 and Swim Speed 3, standards are 3/23/2. They are also the only armed versions apart from Italy 405, and have Armour 3/2/1/3/2/1/1 (as do Norway 57 and Italy 405), standard is 5/4/3/5/4/3/2. Special Spanish version?

Class 108 – Heavy Armoured Car

EE-9 Cascavel – Brazil 470 has RoF 6, standard for the 37mm is 8.

AML-90 – Argentina 555 has Survivability 2, standard is 4.

Richard H

Richard_H

December 10th, 2011, 04:36 PM

MRVs

Class 217 – MRV APC

Finland 48 & 49, Zimbabwe 35 and UN 37 have Load Cost less than 10.

Buffel – Zimbabwe 30 has Speed 18, standard is 30.

Casspir – Peru 35 has Survivability 6, all others have 4.

Class 220 – Heavy MRV APC

Jordan 379 & 380 have RoF 6. I suspect that, with a 20mm as primary weapon, it should be 9. NB also applies to Jordan 194 (Class 37) which I think I missed.

Class 237 – MRV IFV

S.Africa 470 has RoF 9, standard is 4.

Richard H

Pibwl

December 10th, 2011, 08:34 PM

My 2 cents:

BRDM-2 Szakal – Poland 579 has HEAT Armour 33 all round. Seems a lot without a speed reduction for weight.

Version with bar armour never entered service, only was shown on MSPO salon in 2004 (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:MSPO2004_PICT0130_Szakal%2B.JPG ). It was intended for Iraq mission, while the Polish Army uses Rosomaks as basic armoured vehicles in Afghanistan, and BRDMs are generally to be withdrawn soon.

M577 – Spain 310 & 312 have Size 4, Speed 31 and Swim Speed 3, standards are 3/23/2. ...

It is a huge vehicle. IMO it should be bigger, than M113 (size 3).

Regards
Michal

Richard_H

December 11th, 2011, 10:16 AM

APCs - pared down to basics.

Class 23 – APC Wheeled

China 748 is a halftrack with Move Class 4. It is neither a template unit, nor is it X3 coded. It is, however, the only unit available 1/46 to 12/49.

Chile 47 has Lift Capacity 132. Chile 48 has 116, which is AFAIK correct.

Australia 58, Finland 46 and UN 39 have Load Cost less than 10.

Czech 265 and Cambodia 60 have RoF 6, Chile 43 has 7, standard is 9.

Class 24 – APC Halftrack

France 85 & 86 have Speed 18, standard is 24.

Class 25 – APC Tracked

Belgium 61 & 62 and Nigeria 38 are wheeled vehicles. None is a template unit, nor is any of them X3 coded. All dates are covered by other (tracked) vehicles.

Jordan 54, Norway 30, Greece 107 and Switzerland 34 have Load Cost less than 10.

Iran 67 has RoF 4, standard is 9.

Iran 69 has RoF 9, standard is 4.

Egypt 69 & 70 and Ukraine 334 have RoF 4, standard is 7.

Class 121 – Light APC

UK 274, Denmark 58, Thailand 64 & 65 and Rhodesia 215 have Load Cost less than 10.

Belgium 65 has RoF 4, Mujahadeen 312 and Afghanistan 312 have 6, standard is 9.

M3 Halftrack – Belgium 58 has Speed 19, Denmark 57 has 18, standard is 24.

M577 – Israel 406 has Speed 18, standard is 23.

Class 122 – Light Support APC

Ethiopia 271 has no ammunition for Weapon 2.

Australia 253, Netherlands 265-267, Algeria 305, Cambodia 491, Chad 305 and Ethiopia 271 have Load Cost less than 10.

Algeria 303 and Chad 303 have RoF 90, Belgium 183 has 4, PLO 46 has 6, standard is 9.

PSzH-IV – Bulgaria 61 has Speed 36, standard is 27.

BTR-40 – Sudan 296 and N.Yemen 303 have Movement Class ‘Tracked’.

Shorland – Lebanon 305 has Speed 18, standard is 24.

V-150 Commando – Taiwan 491 has Speed 30, standard is 36.

Class 123 – Airborne APC

Russia 976 and China 738 have Load Cost less than 10.

GAZ-3937 - Russia 976 has Speed 30, standard is 37.
Ukraine 549 has Survivability 0, standard is 4.
Russia 549 & 976 and Ukraine 549 have Crew 1. I‘d think they would need at least a gunner as well.

M114 – USA 4 & 332 have Survivability 0, standard is 4.

Class 124 – Airborne Support APC

Kraka - W.Germany 78 has RoF 9, standard is 6.
W.Germany 64, 65 & 70 have RoF 6, standard is 4.

Class 126 – Gun APC Wheeled

USA 350 has Load Cost 9.

Class 127 – Gun APC Tracked

M113 – Australia 35 & 36 have RoF 9, standard is 7.

Class 251 – APC

Italy 211 & 212 have Load Cost 6.

Richard H