Assailed by heroes

[Moanerette]

OK... it's early game and I have a fortress besieged by immensely tough looking indy 'heroes' with nasty magic weapons, spells etc. I can't see any way of driving them off, but they're not touching my fortress. If I just wait it out will they get bored and wander off, or am I somewhat in trouble?

[Soyweiser]

You are in a lot of trouble. Basically you cannot use that fort anymore. (or expect some losses). The heroes are strong, and they cheat. One of them is scripted to shoot commanders.

http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Bogus

As they always shoot a commander, they are very hard to kill using conventional early game armies.

[JonBrave]

Has he been very wicked to deserve this?

[Moanerette]

Aye, that's the chap. I can't see how I'm going to shift him till I get more powerful magic, as my conventional troops are no match for these irritants (troll mages! I ask you!). That's my year one expansion down the drain then. On the plus side, Bogus and chums are probably blocking the pass more effectively than my fortress on its own was.

[Knai]

What nation are you playing? Bogus and his ilk are surprisingly easy to cut down with some (e.g. Vanheim). You'll take losses, but having a fort out of commission is worse than relatively mild losses.

[Moanerette]

Chelms - LA Man. I had a chance to take a look at the heroes when they first went in, and their combo of high HP/protection and regeneration suggested that it would be hard to make an impact. I suppose a large longbow army might have a chance, but I'm really wary of that target commanders thing Soyweiser mentions. My other option would be to send in the mages with a communion master/slave thing, but if that went wrong and I lost a load of mages that would be disastrous.

[brxbrx]

I love those guys. This is, though, a good opportunity to try out some commander killing stuff, as well as a recruitment chance for SC's if you've got some mind control available.
And some of those magic items aren't at all bad!

[shatner]

I love those guys. This is, though, a good opportunity to try out some commander killing stuff, as well as a recruitment chance for SC's if you've got some mind control available.
And some of those magic items aren't at all bad!

The game in question is on Turn 13. Mind control isn't an option.


Here's a little advice from his neighbor in that game:

The guy that snipes commanders does so with a bow. By turn 13 you should have a minimum of 26 air gems, allowing you to forge air shield items for your commanders if needed. That way 4 of every 5 shots from the troll sniper will fail to hit, nullifying that particular participant. Failing that, any shield with a decent parry will block most shots; double points if you forge Shields of Valor (5 air, constr-2) because they give both air shield AND a parry bonus of 8. And really, the three main terrors of that force are the sniper, Bogus (good protection, life drain sword, regen) and the griffon-knight (super high defense, fear, luck, high protection).

Given that the bad guys have high armor, massed archers might not be the right approach (though they won't hurt). Lightning bolt is an excellent choice, which your Magister Arcane can cast natively. Get enough blockers and a dedicated group of lightning spammers should kill Bogus and the griffon knight; once those two are dead you can overwhelm the rest with conventional melee troops. Be careful because I think the griffon knight has flying and is scripted to attack rear (can someone else confirm that?) so be sure to spread out your lightning spammers and maybe even put them ahead of your archers. Something like

<-- Back --- Front -->
Longbows-----SpreadOutMagisters-----BlockingInfantry

I won't deny that it was a real rough break having Bogus and co. sitting on your new fort. Still, pump enough volts through them and they'll die or route, and you might even get some magic items as spoils. It's a small consolation prize but at least it's something.

[Moanerette]

Thanks a lot Shatner - btw, this situation cropping up should also answer your in-game query!

I confess some swearing occurred when I saw these guys move in. Still, all grist to the mill in what is obviously a learning game for me.

[Knai]

The guy that snipes commanders does so with a bow. By turn 13 you should have a minimum of 26 air gems, allowing you to forge air shield items for your commanders if needed. That way 4 of every 5 shots from the troll sniper will fail to hit, nullifying that particular participant. Failing that, any shield with a decent parry will block most shots; double points if you forge Shields of Valor (5 air, constr-2) because they give both air shield AND a parry bonus of 8. And really, the three main terrors of that force are the sniper, Bogus (good protection, life drain sword, regen) and the griffon-knight (super high defense, fear, luck, high protection).

There is also the commander flooding method. Basically, the AI usually tries to hit high HP targets when possible. Mages frequently have fewer hit points than fairly heavily armored indie commanders who shuttle troops around. Getting a group of those to stand out in front of the mages, ordered to Hold Position x 5 could potientially draw fire long enough to take at least some of the heroes down with lightning.

[Soyweiser]

Summoning trolls, or low level vine men, also have a lot of hp. Another bonus, I'm not sure if it matters, but vinemen have low protection and defense. So if the AI works as I assume it works, it will try to target these units to maximize the potential HP damage it does. (This is vs the attack rear dude of course).

The construction summons (which I assume are out of your reach) are even better potential HP decoys.

[brxbrx]

How much fire can you cook up? That should hurt them (trolls). Also, you can use a lot of single target spells since there won't be any army to distract your casters. Hopefully a horde of barbarians or a group of ronin won't decide to join them.

[Soyweiser]

Brxbrx, has a good point. They lack a lot of resistances. So you best want to look there. Also, as they usually do not come with an army, you could try shooting them, with magical bows.

[Valerius]

I've also had good success against them using air mages with bodyguards along the lines shatner describes. Air shield to protect against the archer, lightning bolt to kill the knight and Bogus (even if you don't have many mages the lightning bolts will increase his fatigue which improves your melee troops' chances). Once you get past those two the others aren't hard to kill.

It's a hassle having to devote resources to dealing with them so early on but maybe you'll get some decent magic items out of it.

[brxbrx]

The knight will rush you, though.

[thejeff]

Be careful because I think the griffon knight has flying and is scripted to attack rear (can someone else confirm that?) so be sure to spread out your lightning spammers and maybe even put them ahead of your archers. Something like

<-- Back --- Front -->
Longbows-----SpreadOutMagisters-----BlockingInfantry


The griffin knight definitely has flying and I believe he is scripted to attack commanders (or possibly mages?)

Spreading out your infantry & archers as suggested won't help. Instead bury your mages in archers, so there aren't any open spaces next to them. He can't attack what he can't get to.

A few indy commanders as bait might help too.

[Immaculate]

he's not scripted to attack commanders. Thats only the archer (as far as i know)

[brxbrx]

he's not scripted to attack commanders. Thats only the archer (as far as i know)

Yeah, but I'm pretty sure he's scripted to attack rear, and besides, he'll close the distance to your commanders no problem.

[Fantomen]

he's not scripted to attack commanders. Thats only the archer (as far as i know)

It is the dark knight as well. If you charm him/them you can see the orders in the army setup screen. Iirc the knight is "attack commanders" and the archer is "fire mages". Their order can also be copied over to other commanders, but that is generally considered cheating if used in multiplayer games.

So use a tough commander/mage with boduguards and protection against arrows.

Bogus has high encumbrance and relies on the drainlife effect of his sword to reinvigorate, so you can use undead or other lifeless units against him to fatigue him out.

They're not wearing mr items, use paralyze and the like.

[brxbrx]

I never knew orders were preserved with mind control spells. Is that also the case when they get demoted to regular units and must be GoRed?

[Valerius]

I never knew orders were preserved with mind control spells. Is that also the case when they get demoted to regular units and must be GoRed?

No, if they lose commander status the script is lost as well.

[Moanerette]

Wow, so many suggestions. Thank you very much, everyone.