Ashdod is worthless now

[ghoul31]

Their troops have 7 fatigue in the new cbm. The enemy can just throw tons of junk troops at you and fatigue you out and slaughter you.

[PriestyMan]

Ashdod is too good. all they do is research evo and kill all the crap i keep sending at them

[Squirrelloid]

Holy ****, E10N4 bless =/= win anymore because Ashdod actually has reasonable encumbrance for how much armor it has! Stop the presses!

W.A.I.

[ghoul31]

anyone not on my ignore list want to answer?

[Happerry]

No, not really. The proficient people who you like ignoring because you refuse to improve and make us suspect you are a robot when we consider your tactics already said what we were thinking.

But hey, don't worry! You can always just mass their super longbowmen people and other archers for a rain of death! They're surprisingly fun!

[ghoul31]

Say what you want, but when Ulm can just march through Ashdod like they aren't even there, you know cbm has gotten way out of control.

[kianduatha]

Care to explain more what happened? Was Ashdod using their sacreds vs. guardians, or was it more Iron Blizzard spam or something else?

[Squirrelloid]

Say what you want, but when Ulm can just march through Ashdod like they aren't even there, you know cbm has gotten way out of control.

Uh, Black Guardians always marched through Anakim like they weren't there. Outnumbered sacreds against Black Guardians? lulz.

Oh wait, you aren't going to see this. Oh well.

[rdonj]

Ashdod has been hit pretty hard by nerfs, and not necessarily always in ways I would have preferred. But they haven't been nerfed into worthlessness. You just have to evolve your tactics around the new changes. You can still make them fatigue neutral with just a girdle of might, and that wasn't a bad idea before anyway. So you just need a bit of construction research and the willingness to spend some gems. Honestly the fact that niefelheim still has just 4 encumbrance is ridiculous though, jarls were much sillier IMO. Anyway, you're not going to be able to use ashdod the same way anymore, but think of that as a challenge to improve your playing ability. From what I've heard you have certain habits for playing the same way every time, with a brute force approach. But there is a lot of subtlety in the game to learn, and if you try to stretch out a bit more, you may find a way to work around the issues you have with Ashdod's sacreds. With the support from the zamzummites and some of their other things, plus gearing your sacreds to at least some modest degree, you should get a much better performance out of them.

[Valerius]

It looks like the difference is the Anakite armor encumbrance was increased from 2 in CBM 1.84 to 3 in CBM 1.92. Doing a quick check it seems like prot 12-14 armors are generally 2 encumbrance, prot 20+ are 3 encumbrance and prot 16-17 can go either way. For example, Aby's troops have a prot 17, enc 2 plate hauberk but Pan's centaur cataphracts have prot 17, enc 3 centaur barding.

Of course for commanders you can get around this by swapping out their armor and/or adding reinvig gear but the troops are stuck with it. Given its OP history Ashdod doesn't get much sympathy and I'm assuming this was a deliberate nerf so that even with an assumed E10 bless they could be tired out more rapidly than when they had a total encumbrance of 6 under 1.84 (though to be fair Hinnom's [commander-only AFAIK] prot 17 Dawn Armor still has an encumbrance of 2).

Honestly the fact that niefelheim still has just 4 encumbrance is ridiculous though, jarls were much sillier IMO.

I can even live with the jarls, it's those damn skratti sending everyone to hell that gets me. :p

[ghoul31]

. You can still make them fatigue neutral with just a girdle of might,.

I was wiped out on turn 15. You can't make a girdle of might that early. Their sacreds are ridiculously expensive, 150 gold 88 resources, and commanders are 500 gold 83 resources. So you can only make 1 or 2 troops a turn.

And the troops aren't even that good. They have 13atk, 16def, 18prot. The only thing that saved them was being able to make them fatigue neutral.

Now after about 10 rounds, they fatigue out and become worthless.

[rdonj]

There's more on their roster than just sacreds though. Bshanites and Gileadites aren't awful, and can help prevent your other giants from being swarmed. Plus you have access to 7 gold slingers which can help a lot in weeding out chaff. Ahiman Anakites are a lot less appealing now though, you should probably buy the sheshai now instead if you want the sacred soldiers. Or to ignore them altogether.

[Squirrelloid]

You have your other better cheaper sacreds, which only have 5 encumbrance. You know, for anyone reading this who might actually believe ghoul since he isn't going to read this.

[Valerius]

Yeah, I was going to mention the Sheshai Anakites since they also have half the resource cost. Usually gold will be the limiting factor here but resources could sometimes come into play.

The only thing is, with 14 prot they will likely take some damage and go berserk even with an E9 bless so you may end up with a similar fatigue situation as with the nonberserking Ahiman Anakites. But if you can reach Alt. 3 for BE you could delay them going berserk.

But I think rdonj is right in that you have to look at other options in your lineup or even indie units like archers. In this case I think ghoul was facing a 3 vs 1 so he may not have had the gold to switch up his troop composition much anymore but generally speaking you have to tailor your approach to the opponent and can't rely on one unit to handle all situations (if a unit can do that it's almost a sure sign that it's OP).

[P3D]

The main problem of Ashdod is that all giants are owerwhelmed easily now, and the human slave troops are worse than chaff. There is no researcher that is marginally affordable, either. The Rephaite sage should cost ~160gp instead of 200, the 140gp units with Augury are better

Giving all the size-4 Ashdod units a gore attack would solve that problem. It's even thematic.

[triqui]

You have your other better cheaper sacreds, which only have 5 encumbrance. You know, for anyone reading this who might actually believe ghoul since he isn't going to read this.

Those are Berserkers, and also fatigue while they are berserking.

I don't think Ashdod is "worthless". They aren't the worse nation in the roster, not by a long shot. However, the OP is right in one thing: that 2 extra encumbrance is hurting them, badly.

They are incredibly outnumbered in any fight. With fatigue, they have a tough time fighting almost any chaff. For a unit that is worth 100+ gold and 40-80 resources, they aren't that good.

Not only that, but even more important, in my opinion. With encumbrance 7, they are FORCED to have a high earth bless. There's no option, no other chance, no way to play them in a original way. 7 encumbrance per round means they'll autodeafeat themselves by fatigue, unless they have E9+ bless.

That, imho, is horrible. There should not be any "mandatory" bless for a nation.

Just my 0,02

[Squirrelloid]

You have your other better cheaper sacreds, which only have 5 encumbrance. You know, for anyone reading this who might actually believe ghoul since he isn't going to read this.

Those are Berserkers, and also fatigue while they are berserking.

I don't think Ashdod is "worthless". They aren't the worse nation in the roster, not by a long shot. However, the OP is right in one thing: that 2 extra encumbrance is hurting them, badly.

They are incredibly outnumbered in any fight. With fatigue, they have a tough time fighting almost any chaff. For a unit that is worth 100+ gold and 40-80 resources, they aren't that good.

Not only that, but even more important, in my opinion. With encumbrance 7, they are FORCED to have a high earth bless. There's no option, no other chance, no way to play them in a original way. 7 encumbrance per round means they'll autodeafeat themselves by fatigue, unless they have E9+ bless.

That, imho, is horrible. There should not be any "mandatory" bless for a nation.

Just my 0,02

Lets be clear on a few things:
(1) Fatigue neutral giant sacreds from turn 1 are too good. There's abundant evidence of this before CBM started fixing the problem. Ashdod was so ridiculously overpowered before CBM decided to reign it in that the changes had to make it 'hurt' relative to before. That just brought it down from 'so much better than other nations it wasn't funny' to 'reasonably balanced'.
(2) Building up 2 encumbrance every round is not the end of the world. Its better than most units, especially with the kind of armor Anakim pack.
(3) Berserk is an advantage - it means you don't run away.
(4) No one is forcing you to take a bless at all or use the sacreds troops
(5) You're going to take an E+N bless anyway if you're going to use the sacreds, they're giants. They were never played with other blesses before the encumbrance changes. Acting offended that the only logical bless is E+N is ridiculous. So yes, its assumed if you're going to invest in Ashdod's sacreds you have an E9-10 bless, probably E10. Because that's what everyone was playing them with.

And none of this changes the fact that he got clobbered by *MA Ulm* while trying to use a pure sacred army of size 5 giants. Anyone with half a brain would realize that size 2 guardians are going to clobber size 5 sacreds. Even vanilla MA Ulm would trash vanilla Ashdod. Its the single worst matchup in the game for them. Take one of the only MA sacreds that can get outnumbered 3:1 locally, realize that you're going to be outnumbered more than 3:1 overall from a gold standpoint (ie, Ulm can afford losses without losing tactical numerical superiority), and then add in a unit which specifically hoses sacreds. Only a fool would think they can win that combat.

It may well have been the only 1 on 1 early game matchup MA Ulm would expect to win in vanilla.

[triqui]

Lets be clear on a few things:
(1) Fatigue neutral giant sacreds from turn 1 are too good. There's abundant evidence of this before CBM started fixing the problem. Ashdod was so ridiculously overpowered before CBM decided to reign it in that the changes had to make it 'hurt' relative to before. That just brought it down from 'so much better than other nations it wasn't funny' to 'reasonably balanced'.

I might agree with Ashdod beeing to powerful. It doesnt change my stance that they got really really hurt now.


(2) Building up 2 encumbrance every round is not the end of the world. Its better than most units, especially with the kind of armor Anakim pack.
The rest of the units do not cost 150g and 88 resources, so they actually have a chance to kill their oponents in less than two hundred years. An army of 300g 176r worth sacreds from Ashdod do *four* attacks per turn.


(3) Berserk is an advantage - it means you don't run away. but still invalidates the point I was quoting, which was saying their other sacred unit was encumbrance neutral. It is not, becouse Berserker makes you to fatigue.

(4) No one is forcing you to take a bless at all or use the sacreds troops Nop, they give you two options: that one, or losing incredibly fast.
Good luck trying to beat anything but indies with 150g88r troops that get 7 encumbrance per turn.


(5) You're going to take an E+N bless anyway if you're going to use the sacreds, they're giants. They were never played with other blesses before the encumbrance changes. Acting offended that the only logical bless is E+N is ridiculous. So yes, its assumed if you're going to invest in Ashdod's sacreds you have an E9-10 bless, probably E10. Because that's what everyone was playing them with.
There are guides in the web about playing Hinnom with high scales, I'm sure I'd try it with Ashdod as well... if it would be viable. It's not, with 7 encumbrance per turn.

However, you are just agreeing with my. They are now a "play like this, period" nation after CBM. I thought CBM was a mod to make more options viable, not the other way around.


And none of this changes the fact that he got clobbered by *MA Ulm* while trying to use a pure sacred army of size 5 giants.I haven't mentioned Ulm in my post, so this is useless rant. I just mentioned that the CBM "balance" approach might be wrong.

I'll elaborate:

Encumbrance neutral Ashdod giants are too powerful.
150g88r units with 7 encumbrance are too weak.

CBM 1,92 balanced the first issue, but did nothing about the second. Now Ashdod have sacreds that are not worth they cost, by a *far* margin. If they aren't encumbrance neutral, they aren't worth 150g88r.

[kianduatha]

I think the point is that while yes, specifically Ahiman Anakites are less powerful, Sheshai Anakites are the same fatigue-wise and most of their non-sacred options are both cheaper and have less encumbrance. So it might behoove you to experiment with their actual troops.

[Squirrelloid]

Triqui, I'd be happy to duel you, and I'll play Ashdod without an E9+ bless. We'll see how weak Ashdod really is. Hop on IRC to arrange it.

[rdonj]

Nop, they give you two options: that one, or losing incredibly fast.
Good luck trying to beat anything but indies with 150g88r troops that get 7 encumbrance per turn.

If you're not taking a bless, there is absolutely no reason to recruit the sacred giant troops. Instead you rely on the non-sacreds in your roster. If there's no bless, it encourages you to build more early mages and you'll be able to hit higher levels of construction faster. It's hard to make them fatigue neutral without at least some level of earth bless though. And ashdod's sacreds/sacred commanders are very probably overpriced now, which could be fixed in a later version. I think they'd work better at 6 encumbrance as well, but this is really the first version of Ashdod that's not insane from turn 1.

[Dimaz]

Squirrelloid, while I don't know anything about Ashdod, I think you're wrong about vanilla Ulm. In early game it's rather strong and can deal with most opposition. The problems begin with transition to mid-midgame if you don't diversify with pretender/indies by that time.

[triqui]

Triqui, I'd be happy to duel you, and I'll play Ashdod without an E9+ bless. We'll see how weak Ashdod really is. Hop on IRC to arrange it.

See, that's your second fallacious (and eepeen) post in a row.


Let's suppose (as hypothesis )you manage to win me with Ashdod. Would that show that Ashdod is fine? Not really, just show that you are (in hypothesis) a better player than me (or at the very least, that you think you are). That would proof absolutelly nothing. I'm sure Baalz could beat me with any nation, even if I use pre 1.92 Ashdod. That shows absolutelly nothing about Ashdod (or any other nation) balance.

Just like your post proofs nothing, but that people in internet argument fall to e-peen show-offs when they have no other point to argue, or the points they made before have been refuted in a way they cannot answer back.(IE: the stupid remark about Berserk unbreakable morale, which had nothing to do with what I was replying to: the fatigue)

Do you want to prove something about Ashdod balance? Fine, let's take a look in the next couple of months to every middle age game there is, that is played under CBM 1,92. Let's see if they win they fair share of victories. I doubt it.

@rdonj
If you're not taking a bless, there is absolutely no reason to recruit the sacred giant troops. Instead you rely on the non-sacreds in your roster. If there's no bless, it encourages you to build more early mages and you'll be able to hit higher levels of construction faster. It's hard to make them fatigue neutral without at least some level of earth bless though. And ashdod's sacreds/sacred commanders are very probably overpriced now, which could be fixed in a later version. I think they'd work better at 6 encumbrance as well, but this is really the first version of Ashdod that's not insane from turn 1
Fair enough, I change my stance from "ashdod is horribly overpriced" to "ashdod sacreds and sacred commanders are horribly overpriced". Which is kind of similar though, as the nation strength is their sacreds and sacred commanders. It's like if you remove Vans from helheim, or Jarls and sacreds from Niefelheim, and you say "hey, but they still can use everything else"

For example: you say that, without sacreds, they'll be compelled to buy extra mages for extra research. Sure. Except those are 200g non-sacred (for unkeep) mages with research 6. It's not like they are Bogarus or something, you know.

I'm not sure if they need to go down to encumbrance 6, or whatever. What I'm sure, though, is that 7 encumbrance for 150g and 88r is NOT a good deal. For that price, they suck. They suck hard. Sure, you can use the other troops in the roster. Bassically, the ones that don't suck. This doesn't change the fact they suck. Hard.

To repeat myself:
Yes, Ashdod with encumbrance neutral where way too powerful. Even if they were very expensive, they were very powerful. They needed a nerf. However, they nerfed them hard, but kept their insane cost. Most of the nations have *commanders* that are cheaper than Annakites. If you want to keep them with encumbrance 7, then they need a (serious) reduction in cost.

[Squirrelloid]

Triqui, I'd be happy to duel you, and I'll play Ashdod without an E9+ bless. We'll see how weak Ashdod really is. Hop on IRC to arrange it.

See, that's your second fallacious (and eepeen) post in a row.

Let's suppose (as hypothesis )you manage to win me with Ashdod. Would that show that Ashdod is fine? Not really, just show that you are (in hypothesis) a better player than me (or at the very least, that you think you are). That would proof absolutelly nothing. I'm sure Baalz could beat me with any nation, even if I use pre 1.92 Ashdod. That shows absolutelly nothing about Ashdod (or any other nation) balance.

Just like your post proofs nothing, but that people in internet argument fall to e-peen show-offs when they have no other point to argue, or the points they made before have been refuted in a way they cannot answer back.(IE: the stupid remark about Berserk unbreakable morale, which had nothing to do with what I was replying to: the fatigue)

Do you want to prove something about Ashdod balance? Fine, let's take a look in the next couple of months to every middle age game there is, that is played under CBM 1,92. Let's see if they win they fair share of victories. I doubt it.

EA Agartha was virtually unplayable for years until CBM finally got around to buffing it. It still managed to win at least one game. And Ashdod is in better shape than EA Agartha ever was.

What's frustrating is you don't seem to actually want to play Ashdod to see if it still works. (I'd be willign to bet E10N4 still works, too, but it was never the sacred *troops* that really mattered). Which is why i offered to blitz. You specifically said:

Nop, they give you two options: that one, or losing incredibly fast.

Ok, so prove to me its lose incredibly fast if you don't use the sacreds. My offer was not an epeen argument, you literally said 'anyone who doesn't use the sacreds is going to lose'. Prove it. Put your money where your mouth is.

If instead you'd rather attack me then prove your claim, you're conceeding that you were wrong before. I wouldn't have even offered a blitz if you hadn't argued that doing anything but using sacreds was an autoloss.

Otherwise, there are other options, and thus Ashdod is probably fine. If a single one of their sacred options is not optimal in all situations, that's only a good thing. If its optimal in none, well, it'll get tweaked eventually. CBM balancing is an iterative process. But its clear to me at least this is solely a unit issue, not a nation balance issue.

---------------

You seem convinced that enc 7 is too much without being willing to play them. Considering net enc 2 is better than enc 5 for most troops, including Ashdod's nonsacreds (which work just fine!), this implies you don't actually understand the issues.

And berserk is an advantage. Those troops are fatigue neutral *until* they berserk, and then they don't run away once they do berserk. Horrors, they build up a little fatigue every round they attack *after* they berzerk. Its still less than the other sacred overall, because they have enough protection (18 with E9+) that putting some damage through that in the early game is hard.

The fact that you automatically dismiss them because they *eventually* become not-fatigue-neutral sort of demonstrates that you won't be happy until you have fatigue neutral broken giant troops. Since we know that's a bad idea, of course we're skeptical of your position.

----------------

And the real point you seem to be missing is that Ashdod was never about armies of *troops*. It was about armies of thugs and SCs. Being non-neutral on fatigue is only going to really matter in large battles, at which point you'll be thanking your enemies for killing off your cash-guzzling sacreds so you can recruit more SCs.

The only impact of non-neutral fatigue via bless is that Ashdod needs to do some research before it tries to crush someone now, as opposed to just rushing people. This is a good thing

Zazzumite: excellent thug/light SC, self-blessing, frequently with good buffing paths (Summon Earth Power, ironskin/stoneskin/invulnerability, soul drain, potentially personal luck/body ethereal, etc...)

Adon: Excellent SC, self blessing, good buffing path. (E2 ones are the best, but S2 isn't much worse and F2 is ok eventually). 3 misc slots. Typical E9-10 bless with bracers of protection doubles up the +4 protection bonus from the bless, and the third misc slot lets you pack a pendant and AMA in addition to the bracer.

Base enc 7 can be cut with lower fatigue armor or shield (or both), and mitigated away with boots, summon earth power, and of course bless.

Even without a big E bless you can still drop them to fatigue neutral pretty easily.

And no, Adons are not overpriced. They're a recruitable SC chassis - how bad the armor is or isn't is irrelevant, you're just going to slap something better on them anyway.

When every commander you recruit all game except Talmai Elders is a viable SC, its time to start wondering why you bother with recruitable troops after turn ~12 at all.

[Scaramuccia]

Just tested non-bless start.
Used dormant sphinx e6s4 dom7 03/P3/H3/G3/M1.
No problems with expansion - starting army is abysia class.
archers + amorites for second army are good too,
Recruited Zamzumites each turn (starting from turn1). Had adon with lantern shield, luck pendant , earth braces and black steel plate on turn 8. He rocks:).

Don't see what problems ashdod have.

[Valerius]

I did the same as Scaramuccia and tested an expansion with both the non-sacred troops and E10n6 sacreds. I also found things worked fine with the non-sacred troops. Both types of sacreds did fine as well, even with fatigue accumulating. Fatigue as a possible counter to them seems reasonable.

I also agree with Squirrelloid that beyond initial expansion, it's the sacred commanders that matter, not the troops. And there you can swap out the encumbrance 3 armor and give them reinvig items if needed.

Actually, looking at the troops my main thought is that they are among the better GoR candidates in the game. Probably not worth it since you've got Zamzummite's but 6 gems is a reasonable cost to pay for that type of thug.

[Starbelly Geek]

Don't see what problems ashdod have.

My issue would be that the principal behind CBM was, I thought, to reduce the number of "useless" units each nation has and encourage diversity. This change does the latter (because Ashdod becomes more of a mage-variety emphasis and de-emphasizes the cap-only sacreds), but at the expense of the former (the sacred troops are much more niche-utility, where their use was already limited by their extreme cost and limited massability). Sure, people are more likely to consider strategies other than high Earth bless now, but I'm not sure that the high Earth bless is even a good investment any longer.

For Adons, you can just replace their armor with something lower encumbrance (even Black Plate Cuirass is better), but Anakites (both types) are likely to see very little use. Was an Ahiman Anakite bless rush really a constant problem with Ashdod? Why not just push them up to a higher cost?

I don't understand why, facing Ulm, one wouldn't load up on the cheaper giants. Amorites and Edomites should be able to do a number on the base troops of Ulm and survive most of the early things the smiths can do. So "Ashdod is worthless" sounds a lot like "monkey PD is crippling" to me, but I'm not sure the change made here was well considered.

[PriestyMan]

My issue would be that the principal behind CBM was, I thought, to reduce the number of "useless" units each nation has and encourage diversity. This change does the latter (because Ashdod becomes more of a mage-variety emphasis and de-emphasizes the cap-only sacreds), but at the expense of the former (the sacred troops are much more niche-utility, where their use was already limited by their extreme cost and limited massability). Sure, people are more likely to consider strategies other than high Earth bless now, but I'm not sure that the high Earth bless is even a good investment any longer.


The problem with this assertion (although it is a goodthought) is that without the nerf, the sacreds, and the high E bless was so good that it made all other strategies severely sub-optimal. So CBM has at the very least kept the number of options the same. I think it has increased because personally i think at least E6 is still huge for ashdod just for the SC's.

[Mightypeon]

Squirrelloid, while I don't know anything about Ashdod, I think you're wrong about vanilla Ulm. In early game it's rather strong and can deal with most opposition. The problems begin with transition to mid-midgame if you don't diversify with pretender/indies by that time.

Indeed, there were a number of nations even crappy vanilla Ulm (after the Black Guard adding patch) could rush, and CBM Ulm can rush a lot of people successfully, provided they are close enough.

[ghoul31]

had I realized the sacreds were worthless now, I would have just used regular troops.. They should have just deleted the sacreds, so people don't mistakenly use them like I did.

[PriestyMan]

you didnt test them before the game started?

[elmokki]

"Oh god, why didn't CBM remove flagellants! I made a bless for them and lost the game!"

[Admiral_Aorta]

remove all nations except mictlan so no one accidentally picks a bad one

[ghoul31]

"Oh god, why didn't CBM remove flagellants! I made a bless for them and lost the game!"

flagellants are a lot more useful than ashdod's sacreds now

so you fail

[ghoul31]

remove all nations except mictlan so no one accidentally picks a bad one

with cbm, there aren't supposed to be any bad nations. So you fail also.

[samoht]

I would like to thank everybody who has posted in this thread. I have been kept entertained all weekend.

[triqui]

You seem convinced that enc 7 is too much without being willing to play them. Considering net enc 2 is better than enc 5 for most troops, including Ashdod's nonsacreds (which work just fine!), this implies you don't actually understand the issues.

Actually is you the one that do not understand the issues. First, having encumbrance 7 is not really a problem. Having encumbrance 7 in a unit that cost 150g 88r, and thus is going to be horribly outnumbered in any situation, is.
Ashdod giants often are incredibly low number armies. To beat chaff (specially, but not only, undead chaff), they need a TON of turns.

There are other high encumbrance units in the game. Centaur Cataphracts have encumbrance 7 as well. However, for the price you have 1 single Annakite that 2 two attacks, Centaurs do *eight* attacks. So the amount of rounds both armies are going to be fighting is not even close. In a combat where Centaurs get say, 30 fatigue, the Annakite get one hundred and twenty.

I don't know what else can I do. I'll reiterate:

The problem is not having encumbrance 7. The problem is the combination of encumbrance 7, with being absolutelly unable to kill opposing armie in less than a gazzillion fighting rounds, becouse of the incredibly high cost per attack ratio. They cost 150g88r.


And berserk is an advantage. Those troops are fatigue neutral *until* they berserk, and then they don't run away once they do berserk. Horrors, they build up a little fatigue every round they attack *after* they berzerk. Its still less than the other sacred overall, because they have enough protection (18 with E9+) that putting some damage through that in the early game is hard.
It's an adventage. It's an adventage absolutelly unrelated to what we were discussing, though. You made a remark about "they have encumbrance 5". I quoted you and said that they were berserkers. I suppossed that you understood that I was talking about the fatigue. Obviously you didn't. My fault, I guess.



The fact that you automatically dismiss them because they *eventually* become not-fatigue-neutral sort of demonstrates that you won't be happy until you have fatigue neutral broken giant troops. Since we know that's a bad idea, of course we're skeptical of your position.
see, yet another fallacy (strawman's). I understand it's much easier for you to argue a point that I *did not* say, than the ones I actually said, but it's not really very usefull.

I already said that the nerf was needed. The problem is that CBM forgot to change the cost of the giants proportionally to the nerf. Pre-nerf, they were an incredibly expensive (as in: twice everything else) unit with an incredibly power. Now they are just incredibly expensive.

[Squirrelloid]

You seem convinced that enc 7 is too much without being willing to play them. Considering net enc 2 is better than enc 5 for most troops, including Ashdod's nonsacreds (which work just fine!), this implies you don't actually understand the issues.

Actually is you the one that do not understand the issues. First, having encumbrance 7 is not really a problem. Having encumbrance 7 in a unit that cost 150g 88r, and thus is going to be horribly outnumbered in any situation, is.
Ashdod giants often are incredibly low number armies. To beat chaff (specially, but not only, undead chaff), they need a TON of turns.

There are other high encumbrance units in the game. Centaur Cataphracts have encumbrance 7 as well. However, for the price you have 1 single Annakite that 2 two attacks, Centaurs do *eight* attacks. So the amount of rounds both armies are going to be fighting is not even close. In a combat where Centaurs get say, 30 fatigue, the Annakite get one hundred and twenty.

I don't know what else can I do. I'll reiterate:

The problem is not having encumbrance 7. The problem is the combination of encumbrance 7, with being absolutelly unable to kill opposing armie in less than a gazzillion fighting rounds, becouse of the incredibly high cost per attack ratio. They cost 150g88r.

Its not 7 effective encumbrance. What you don't get is no one played them without an E10 bless anyway, so their effective encumbrance is *2*. No one is going to use that unit without a big earth bless. You want to talk about strawmen, why are you talking about using a sacred who is obviously going to have an earth bless without factoring in the earth bless. Ignoring the earth bless is why you don't understand why these troops are just fine as is.

Regarding Berserk: they're still fatigue neutral until they berserk. Berserking isn't some automatic reaction to being in combat, it requires they take damage. Through protection 18 after E10 bless. And even after they berserk they're going to build up fatigue rather slowly. So yes, I'm well aware of the fatigue, my point is the benefits of berserking vastly outweigh, and it will probably be multiple rounds of combat before they even start berserking in the first place, and until they do they are in fact fatigue neutral.

Way to ignore that commanders are where Ashdod's game has always been, btw, which invalidates your entire side of the argument. The only reason Ashdod uses recruitable troops is expansion - a task for which its units, all its units, are still perfectly good.

[triqui]

Its not 7 effective encumbrance. REally? My game is bugged then, becouse it says 7

What you don't get is no one played them without an E10 bless anyway So you agree with my previous statement, they have 2 ways to play, E10, or losing. Don't you? Becouse you said it otherwise a couple of posts ago. It's hard to follow your "reasoning" with that much flip-flop.
So, please, let be clear:
Is Ashdod a "you must play as this, always, with no other option, period" nation?
If so... is this effect stressed with CBM 1,92?
If so... wasn't the entire point of CBM to make more *options* viable, instead of reinforcing the "good ones", or strippping away things?

, so their effective encumbrance is *2*. No one is going to use that unit without a big earth bless.
That's like saying the jaguar warriors have effectively 6 attacks becouse everybody would play them with W9. No, they don't. I've seen people being creative and not using W9F9 jaguars, you know. Not everybody plays like you (fortunately), that's the fun part of this game.
Having a unit that "requires" a bless not to be good, but to be viable, is a ultimate flaw. Encumbrace 7 in a unit that have an attack/gold ratio of seventy five gold and 44 resources per attack pretty much make any non E9 bless completelly unviable. Yes, we agree on this. No, we don't agree this is "working as intended"

You want to talk about strawmen, I think you don't know what a strawmen fallacy is...
why are you talking about using a sacred who is obviously going to have an earth bless without factoring in the earth bless. Ignoring the earth bless is why you don't understand why these troops are just fine as is. Becouse I thought the beauty of this game was being able to play very differently each game. I don't see any excitement in playing Ashdod twice in a row if I'm "forced" to play some specific bless. That said... they have encumbrance 7. Period. If you want to live in a bubble where they have encumbrance 2, fine, then they cost 150 gold, 88 resources, and 6 full scales. Wow. That's pricey.

Regarding Berserk: they're still fatigue neutral until they berserk. Berserking isn't some automatic reaction to being in combat, it requires they take damage. Through protection 18 after E10 bless. And even after they berserk they're going to build up fatigue rather slowly. So yes, I'm well aware of the fatigue, my point is the benefits of berserking vastly outweigh, and it will probably be multiple rounds of combat before they even start berserking in the first place, and until they do they are in fact fatigue neutral. Which is moot point, becouse it's not what I was talking about. You should try to read what I'm saying and answer to that. Poor strawman is too busy.

Way to ignore that commanders are where Ashdod's game has always been, btw, which invalidates your entire side of the argument. The only reason Ashdod uses recruitable troops is expansion - a task for which its units, all its units, are still perfectly good.
Would you had read what I've already said (or would you comprehend it, if you already read), you would had noticed that I've said several times already that is not that Ashdod is worthless, or overpriced, but that *Annakites* are.

I'll quote myself. I'll bold the relevant parts, to make reading comprehension easier:

The problem is not having encumbrance 7. The problem is the combination of encumbrance 7, with being absolutelly unable to kill opposing armie in less than a gazzillion fighting rounds, becouse of the incredibly high cost per attack ratio. They cost 150g88r.

I already said that the nerf was needed. The problem is that CBM forgot to change the cost of the giants proportionally to the nerf. Pre-nerf, they were an incredibly expensive (as in: twice everything else) unit with an incredibly power. Now they are just incredibly expensive.

I don't think Ashdod is "worthless". They aren't the worse nation in the roster, not by a long shot. However, the OP is right in one thing: that 2 extra encumbrance is hurting them, badly

Encumbrance neutral Ashdod giants are too powerful.
150g88r units with 7 encumbrance are too weak.

Hope the bolding helps with the attention deficit.

[Peter Ebbesen]

Its not 7 effective encumbrance. What you don't get is no one played them without an E10 bless anyway, so their effective encumbrance is *2*. No one is going to use that unit without a big earth bless. You want to talk about strawmen, why are you talking about using a sacred who is obviously going to have an earth bless without factoring in the earth bless. Ignoring the earth bless is why you don't understand why these troops are just fine as is.

Okay, time out.

You overstate the case considerably; That none of the top players in Lamaserver MP games would play a nation like Ashdod in MP without an E10 blessing, or E9 at the very least, because every single one of them plays from the same rulebook where thugging is concerned and compete in an environment where not going mighty men is a sign of insanity - does not in any way, shape, or form imply that nobody playing Ashdod with CBM would play them without a big earth blessing.

Some people might play them in SP games, some in MP games that don't operate by the usual Lamaserver dynamics and player culture, and there are bound to be some who play Ashdod with only a medium size earth blessing or perhaps none at all - and it might be neither stupid nor suboptimal in the games they play, be they SP or MP.

- As an example, in the circle of friends in which I play MP, while the common CBM guides are useful to anybody needing to learn a new nation and we direct new players to read the guides on this forum, they often make assumptions about playstyles that just aren't valid, and the players are a bunch of devious backstabbing bastards with a real-world approach to diplomacy and typically 1-2 decades of experience playing really long-term board and computer games, a niché in which Dominions fits perfectly, so one thing with the other, people often try out unusual nation setups (by Lamaserver standards) and more often than one would expect they succeed over "no-brainer" choices from this forum.

That's not because they are objectively better than the setups and strategies typically discussed in this forum and played by in the Lamaserver games - if such setups were used in a Lamaserver game where the majority of players were Lamaserver veterans, they would probably lose - I'm just pointing out that a cutthroat competitive MP environment does exist where they make sense.

All this to say: For the love of god, don't take what is "the only sensible way to play a nation competitively on Lamaserver" as being the same as "the only way anybody sane would play a nation" and don't denigrate those who quite correctly point out that the changes made to balance one playstyle (that happens to be the favourite Lamaserver style for the nation in question) significantly hurts another playstyle. :)

Now, for the whining of the OP, feel free to heap scorn, but for triqui pointing out the details of his issue... Surely he doesn't deserve that.

[Squirrelloid]

Ok, the reason I'm frustrated with Triqui is he seems to be offering a false dilemma. This quote sums it up pretty clearly:

So you agree with my previous statement, they have 2 ways to play, E10, or losing. Don't you? Becouse you said it otherwise a couple of posts ago. It's hard to follow your "reasoning" with that much flip-flop.
So, please, let be clear:
Is Ashdod a "you must play as this, always, with no other option, period" nation?

No no no no.

Its not a choice between E10 or losing. Its a choice between (*taking a bless for the sacred you have* and using the sacred) OR (*not using the sacred* and doing something different.) (Parentheses provided to be clear on what the choices are since Triqui insists on taking things out of context, like 'them' out to mean Ashdod instead of Anakim).

If you want to use Anakim, you take an ~E10N4 bless, that's just the way it is. No other bless even begins to make sense, even pre-nerf. What would you take? Seriously? Anakim have been specifically balanced around being used with an E10 bless because otherwise they are too powerful with an E10 bless.

Nothing compels you to use Anakim, however. If you don't use Anakim, you can do something totally different.

Pure scales Ashdod works just fine. You probably want to sneak N4 in anyway, but ignoring or mostly ignoring the blessing just means you use more regular troops and no sacred troops. You know, like any other nation who doesn't take a blessing?

Most nations sacreds have a limited range of blessings that make any sense on them. Very few nations have sacreds that work with a wide variety of blesses. No one takes E9 on Shadow Vestals or flagellants. No one takes W9 on Niefl Giants. These things aren't things that CBM should be trying to accomodate because the bless does not make sense for the chassis. If you complained 'E9 doesn't work on flagellants' people would laugh at you. And just how many blesses actually work on Niefl Giants? Are they also a problem because E9N4 or lesser versions thereof is the only bless that works with them?

So you've got a big badass giant sacred troop. When used with a big E bless its perfectly viable. The *nation* is still viable without a big E bless, it just *uses different units*. CBM's mission is accomplished - there's no longer a right way to play (You'd have been a fool to use anything other than sacreds with a big E bless before the nerf, so the nerf actually diversified Ashdod's plausible strategies).

So what is his issue?
Is it that Anakim are unuseable? They clearly aren't - if you take a bless that fits them.

Is it that Ashdod only has one way to play? They clearly don't, I've named two builds that I know work (E10N4 or full scales - and actually, the full range of scales + light E+N blesses also work), and I've got some really bizarre ideas for stuff you might do if you knew something about your starting position before the game began. (Summons requiring wastelands are really obnoxious).

And if you wanted to focus on summons (sacred or otherwise) you have *multiple* pretender choices which provide gems every turn, such as the Monolith, Son of the Sun (fire edition), Lord of Rebirth, and Great Enchantress - all of whom provide 1s or equivalent per turn, and all of which provide gems that you either can use nationally or you have national summons for or both.

And your sacred summons have different issues than your sacred recruitables. Se'irim want a W9-focused bless, Shedim are probably in a similar boat. Malakh don't have the encumbrance issue Anakim do so E4N4 + a few other light blesses might be superior for them. Ditanu are undead and can't use the N bless at all and the E bless of less value.

So I'm really not seeing the 'one right way to play' issue. I'm seeing a 'some units are not worth using if you don't take a blessing for them' issue - but I can think of maybe 3 nations where you'll buy the sacred regardless of what blessing you take, and those are all named Mictlan.

I will completely agree Anakim troops aren't worth using without an E10N4 bless. They aren't supposed to be. This is not the same as saying *Ashdod* isn't worth using without that bless - Ashdod has another ~7 troop options, most of which are viable.

[triqui]

There is a difference between "this unit does not work well with this bless" (ie: Vestals with E9) and "this unit does not work at all with any bless except one" (ie: Annakite without E10). First case gives you plenty options (you can use Vestals with F9, or W9, or D9, or S9, or combination of those, or mild E4W4F4). The second case give you one option: E10. Well, gives you two: E10, or chosing other unit. Although I'm not sure this count as an option...

Anyway, we at least have come to the agreement that encumbrance 7 make E10 absolutelly mandatory for them. What we disagree is that, in my opinion, they aren't worth the 150g88r cost (the highest cost in the game, by a far margin, as they DOUBLE the cost of the next middle age sacred), even with E10.

[Squirrelloid]

There is a difference between "this unit does not work well with this bless" (ie: Vestals with E9) and "this unit does not work at all with any bless except one" (ie: Annakite without E10). First case gives you plenty options (you can use Vestals with F9, or W9, or D9, or S9, or combination of those, or mild E4W4F4). The second case give you one option: E10. Well, gives you two: E10, or chosing other unit. Although I'm not sure this count as an option...

D9 and F9 are both pretty bad shadow vestal blesses - they only have one attack. W9 and S9 are really their only options.

E9N4 is really the only option for Niefl Giants. And Fomorian recruitable sacred troops like Unmarked. If you don't take that bless you don't use those troop options. (Fomoria actually has another totally different bless strategy, but it involves Morrigans, a summon, instead of recruitable sacreds).

Also virtually requiring E9+,N4: Wardens, Knights of the Chalice, Black Templars, sacred Centaurs, Sauromatian sacreds (both), Serpent Cataphracts, Blindfighters, Agarthan sacreds (excepting the stone throwers who only really want the N4), and probably more.

Flagellants are pretty useless without W9.

Similarly Battle Maidens are useless without W9.

Any bless but W9 is wasted on giboleth. Similarly whatever the kailasa ranged attack sacred is. (Because W9 is the only bless that works with ranged sacreds).

Most sacreds only work with 1-2 bless arrangements and aren't worth buying without those set ups. This is not news.

[triqui]

I think I'll redirect you to Peter Ebbesen elegant post:
" For the love of god, don't take what is "the only sensible way to play a nation competitively on Lamaserver" as being the same as "the only way anybody sane would play a nation" and don't denigrate those who quite correctly point out that the changes made to balance one playstyle (that happens to be the favourite Lamaserver style for the nation in question) significantly hurts another playstyle. "

I've seen people using W9 Marignon Chalice kinghts, for devastating effect. I've seen people -like myself- using D9S9 Vestals(which work great), I've seen people using blesses other than E9 in sauromatian cavalry, I've even seen people using W9 on Fomoria Unmarkeds, go figure. Plus I've seen several times people buying sacreds with just average rainbow blesses (like W4F4E4B4), becouse +2 to most stats plus higher than average morale is often worth it.

There are actually several guides in this same web that offer different approachs to what you say are "mandatory" blesses. For example, S9F9 flagellants are named in some guides here, instead of your "must have W9 or they are useless" approach. I can link you a couple of other guides where people is suggesting different blesses for some of the troops you mention, if you want. Baalz Sauromatia Guide suggest, among others, a W9N4 bless and a E9W9 bless, maybe you should PM him and tell him he is completelly wrong and he should play the right way, which is your way.

Until it fell off from the favor of masses to be replaced by E9N4-8, W9F9 was actually "the" must have bless in almost any guide. It was not until Thugs and SC replaced completely troops in the most usual playstyle, that E9 replaced W9F9. So the whole "half the sacreds need E9N4" is utterly wrong. Actually, most the time, E9N4 is the bless you put to your thugs to save gems for reinvigoration items.

Even more important: there's a difference between a unit getting a high benefit from a bless (for example, Jaguars from W9, or Vestals from S9), and that bless being *mandatory* for them. Encumbrance 7 units that are outnumbered 10-1 *need* E10. That's beyond question. You have said it yourself. However, you can use Vestals, Knights, Wardens, Spiders, Jaguars with several different blesses, and they'll work. They might be more or less optimized, but they never stop to function.

I bet, however, that we can say everyone else (including those writing the guides liked in the first posts of this forum) is wrong, and you are right. So all sacreds are made to build just 1 or 2 bless strategy on them, anybody trying different approachs is idiot, fine. Let's move on on the next subject then.

[Squirrelloid]

Until it fell off from the favor of masses to be replaced by E9N4-8, W9F9 was actually "the" must have bless in almost any guide. It was not until Thugs and SC replaced completely troops in the most usual playstyle, that E9 replaced W9F9. So the whole "half the sacreds need E9N4" is utterly wrong. Actually, most the time, E9N4 is the bless you put to your thugs to save gems for reinvigoration items.

And why did it fall out of favor? Because the people taking thug-based blesses were winning perhaps?

Niefl Giants do not work with any blesses beside E9+N4+. Unsurprisingly, they are also size 5 giants with good defenses and few attacks. Would you like to complain about that too? The alternative to E9+N4+ is to *not use* Niefl Giants and use Jotun Skinshifters instead.

W9 with Fomoria usually means its using Morrigans, not Unmarked. Certainly not massing unmarked well past the expansion phase.

----
Was there a different bless that worked on Anakim pre-nerf which no longer works?

What would you like to see work on them that wouldn't make them unstoppable monsters if someone did take E10N4?

ie, what is actually hurt unduly by this change? Or were you expecting CBM to dramatically change the unit so new bless possibilities were available for it?
----

No bless is a also a valid choice - you aren't required to use your sacreds or invest in a blessing.

(And on Sauromatia in particular - there may have been guides which suggested other things, but in practice E9N4 was so ubiquitous that the Gorgon pretender was nerfed specifically because of Sauromatia).

[Korwin]

Any bless but W9 is wasted on giboleth. Similarly whatever the kailasa ranged attack sacred is. (Because W9 is the only bless that works with ranged sacreds).

Death Bless for ranged sacreds?

[Squirrelloid]

Any bless but W9 is wasted on giboleth. Similarly whatever the kailasa ranged attack sacred is. (Because W9 is the only bless that works with ranged sacreds).

Death Bless for ranged sacreds?

Increased affliction chance probably applies, but the D9 death weapon blessing doesn't iirc. I think it was vfb who tested it a couple years ago.

Not that increased afflictions for gibboleths actually makes that much of a difference in their performance.

[Squirrelloid]

FWIW, these are all teh guides on Ashdod I could find. Both consider E10N6 mandatory even before the CBM nerfs.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=41770
http://strategywiki.org/wiki/Dominions_3:_The_Awakening/Nations/Ashdod

Was there a game you saw Ashdod use their sacreds and a different bless? I'm trying to understand what was actually hurt.

[kianduatha]

But doesn't having enc-5 Ahiman Anakites pigeonhole Ashdod into having an E10N4/6 bless far more than enc-7 giants does?

triqui, I presume part of your fervor about this is because you are currently playing Ashdod and are in a war with MA Ermor? I would suggest that Squirrel is right and focusing on commanders would be a much better use of your resources. Slapping some better armor on a handful of Zamzummites or Adons or Talmai Elder and making sure they have 0 enc would go much further than relying on relatively unsupported sacreds.

As far as I can tell, the meat of your argument is that Ahiman Anakites are overcosted now. They still work about as well as before for expanding/acting as a second target for an Adon, so reducing the price might cause imbalances in those directions. Also, gift of reasoning them is...very nice, come to think of it. Pay 4 earth gems for a girdle of might and you more than account for the difference in encumbrance.

[Scaramuccia]

E9N4 have one killer advantage over F9W9 - it is usually 280 points cheaper. You could have nice scales with E9N4 and you will have bad scales with dual bless. This is one reason of E9 bless popularity, the other - it is just the best bless.

[earcaraxe]

Ashdod has been hit pretty hard by nerfs, and not necessarily always in ways I would have preferred. But they haven't been nerfed into worthlessness. You just have to evolve your tactics around the new changes. You can still make them fatigue neutral with just a girdle of might, and that wasn't a bad idea before anyway. So you just need a bit of construction research and the willingness to spend some gems. Honestly the fact that niefelheim still has just 4 encumbrance is ridiculous though, jarls were much sillier IMO. Anyway, you're not going to be able to use ashdod the same way anymore, but think of that as a challenge to improve your playing ability. From what I've heard you have certain habits for playing the same way every time, with a brute force approach. But there is a lot of subtlety in the game to learn, and if you try to stretch out a bit more, you may find a way to work around the issues you have with Ashdod's sacreds. With the support from the zamzummites and some of their other things, plus gearing your sacreds to at least some modest degree, you should get a much better performance out of them.

i would like to back up rdonj's opinion about niefel jarls being even stronger. i would like to see cbm nerfing them in some way.

[triqui]

But doesn't having enc-5 Ahiman Anakites pigeonhole Ashdod into having an E10N4/6 bless far more than enc-7 giants does? Not in my opinion. Encumbrance 5 is hard, but other troops have it. On the other hand, encumbrance 7 is absolutelly undoable. If you have encumbrance 7, you need reinvigoration no matter of what. Maybe not E10, but at the very least E6-

triqui, I presume part of your fervor about this is because you are currently playing Ashdod and are in a war with MA Ermor? Not really, I already lost that war. And encumbrance 7 was not involved in the defeat, as I passed on the Annakites and built the berserkers ones instead. My defeat was a combination of a worthy foe, 2 stalls due to llamaserver problems (that affected me but not my foe), and Apostacy spell.

However, I recognize that I got surprised when I saw encumbrance 7 on the giants (never played them with 1,92 before that). I don't think Ashdod is gimped, though, I was leading the game until I got crushed by comunion+Apostacy. As I said in my very first post, Ashdod is not a bad nation, and is not the weakest nation in the roster, that for sure. But the 150g88r sacreds are, in my opinion, left dead with the change. They are atrociously expensive for what they can do, in my opinion.

And why did it fall out of favor? Because the people taking thug-based blesses were winning perhaps? Sure. But is that related to sacred units? Or to the fact that thugs and SC are the best options available for most nations? E9NX increase thugs effectiveness by a big margin. W9F9... does not. Plus the nerf to some of the sacred units (namely, Vans) also had something to do with it.



Niefl Giants do not work with any blesses beside E9+N4+. Unsurprisingly, they are also size 5 giants with good defenses and few attacks. Would you like to complain about that too? The alternative to E9+N4+ is to *not use* Niefl Giants and use Jotun Skinshifters instead.Niefel Giants have several difference to Annakites. First, they are cheaper (as in much cheaper). Second, they don't have encumbrance 7. Third, they have a frost aura that can help them to kill masses of troops (Except cold inmunes). So no, they are not in the same case than Annakites trying to kill chaff with 75 gold per attack ratio. Plus, in my opinion, Niefleheim would need a nerf more than Annakites did, but that's matter for another discussion.
And on Sauromatia in particular - there may have been guides which suggested other things, but in practice E9N4 was so ubiquitous that the Gorgon pretender was nerfed specifically because of Sauromatia The fact it fly, has a decent fighting chasis, and, maybe, it petrifies everything that attacks them also had something to do with it. Actually, in my opinion, it was the other way around. It's not that Oiorpatas benefit from E9N4 more than they'll do from, say, W9B4 or whatever. The thing is they ended having that bless, becouse Gorgon was so awesome that nobody else used other chasis. And once you are pigeonholed to a Chasis that has Earth and Nature, it makes a lot of sense to have a E/N bless. There were cheap ways to get E9/N4 with other pretenders. People used the Gorgon becouse of the chasis.

[Squirrelloid]

Niefl Giants do not work with any blesses beside E9+N4+. Unsurprisingly, they are also size 5 giants with good defenses and few attacks. Would you like to complain about that too? The alternative to E9+N4+ is to *not use* Niefl Giants and use Jotun Skinshifters instead.Niefel Giants have several difference to Annakites. First, they are cheaper (as in much cheaper). Second, they don't have encumbrance 7. Third, they have a frost aura that can help them to kill masses of troops (Except cold inmunes). So no, they are not in the same case than Annakites trying to kill chaff with 75 gold per attack ratio. Plus, in my opinion, Niefleheim would need a nerf more than Annakites did, but that's matter for another discussion.

Yes, they do have some differences. Lets start with they're in EA instead of MA, and so the expected opposition is stronger in the early game. Lets also note that they have weaker gear overall, and that they are vulnerable in hot provinces.

Niefl Jarls could stand to be nerfed. Niefl *Giants* not as much. In fact, its generally considered better to ignore the Niefl Giants at the moment and use Jotun Skinshifters.

And you still haven't answered the question: namely what other bless even conceivably works with them. Maybe because there isn't one?

I believe the Niefl Giant gold to attack ratio is 125g per attack, for anyone keeping track.

You know what other question you haven't answered? What other blesses worked previously with Anakim that no longer work. This may also be because no one has ever advocated a bless other than E9+ N4+ for anakim. Ever. If you'd like to provide *evidence* to the contrary, please link such posts. If you'd like to upload turn files from a game where Ashdod used Anakim with a bless other than E9+ N4+ and did well, that would also work. My guess is that you have no such evidence.

Or we can agree that everyone sane used a big E bless with a smaller N bless, and that to pretend they will ever be played otherwise is pure sophistry. Then the question becomes 'are they still worth using with that bless?', and all other considerations are irrelevant.

The fact it fly, has a decent fighting chasis, and, maybe, it petrifies everything that attacks them also had something to do with it. Actually, in my opinion, it was the other way around. It's not that Oiorpatas benefit from E9N4 more than they'll do from, say, W9B4 or whatever. The thing is they ended having that bless, becouse Gorgon was so awesome that nobody else used other chasis. And once you are pigeonholed to a Chasis that has Earth and Nature, it makes a lot of sense to have a E/N bless. There were cheap ways to get E9/N4 with other pretenders. People used the Gorgon becouse of the chasis.

You're wrong as a matter of fact here. Gorgon is available to multiple nations, but was only nerfed because of its availability to Sauromatia. Either QM or Llamabeast, maybe both, have said as much. So there's something specific to Sauromatia as to why it was nerfed, and as the chassis strength is clearly a feature of it in itself, that clearly isn't it because the Pans also had full access to that.

Recruitable sacreds, otoh, and recruitable thugs, are nation specific. The logical conclusion is Sauromatia was a problem because the cheap E9N4 bless with an awake SC was too much due to the bless effect on Sauromatia's recruitables. (Whether it was thugs or troops is rather irrelevant).

[Korwin]

Just play Vanilla, no problem with Ashdod nerfs! :D

[Executor]

What now? ****, I still think Ashdod is OP. The problem with Ashdod is not the sacred giants and those great troops but the recruitable SC Adons. Frankly Ashdod shouldn't buy anything except an Adon every turn.

As for the sacreds, I never saw anyone buy Ahiman Anakites even before the nerf due to the high resource cost and Sheshai Anakites are still quite powerful if you take an earth bless, and at the very least you'll take a minor one which goes a long way in a battle. And I don't get why you *have to* have zero encumbrance, how many battles actually last that long the the troops pass out? Most battle last up to 15 turns or so usually and who gives a **** if you get fatigued a little.

[ghoul31]

What now? ****, I still think Ashdod is OP. The problem with Ashdod is not the sacred giants and those great troops but the recruitable SC Adons. Frankly Ashdod shouldn't buy anything except an Adon every turn.

As for the sacreds, I never saw anyone buy Ahiman Anakites even before the nerf due to the high resource cost and Sheshai Anakites are still quite powerful if you take an earth bless, and at the very least you'll take a minor one which goes a long way in a battle. And I don't get why you *have to* have zero encumbrance, how many battles actually last that long the the troops pass out? Most battle last up to 15 turns or so usually and who gives a **** if you get fatigued a little.

Have you read any of the thread? If you recruit 150gold 88res troops, you can only recruit one or 2 a turn. So your going to end up with 10 troops going up against 200 troops. Your troops will defiantely fatigue out.

And if you just recruit Adons, you will definately be dead by turn 20. Because you won't be able to equip them that early.

[Executor]

Yes, that's why I wouldn't buy just sacreds, especially those higher resource ones. I'd rely a bit on PD if I'm going up against larger numbers, Ashdod has great PD, and I'd add other troops, indies if needed.
Research isn't really a problem, Ashdod can easily afford an awake sage pretender to rush alteration and construction and still have a good bless.
Something else to keep in mind is that whoever fights Asdod is likely to fight in a H3 land, meaning they get +2 enc as well.

[triqui]

Niefl Jarls could stand to be nerfed. Niefl *Giants* not as much. In fact, its generally considered better to ignore the Niefl Giants at the moment and use Jotun Skinshifters.
I'll redirect you to Peter's elegant post named before. You should really stop using "it's commonly used that way among Llamaserver MP competitive community" as it stands for "it's commonly used that way in Dominions 3". I play outside of Llamaserver as well, and I see Niefle Giants rushes commonly.
And you still haven't answered the question: namely what other bless even conceivably works with them. Maybe because there isn't one? I'll redirect you again to Peter's post, but suffice to say that I think they are (or should be) a valid option for other blesses, like W6F6, or N9, for example. It's not that other blesses do not work with them, but that E9N4-6 is much better than any other bless (for MP compettitive play among veterans in 10-15 provinces per player maps at least). If CBM wants to balance things out, maybe they should balance what is the most ubiquitous strategy in the game. E9 bless is seen in all ages, in several nations.



I believe the Niefl Giant gold to attack ratio is 125g per attack, for anyone keeping track.
Like it matters.... A group of 5+ Niefl giants produce such a cold aura that they would kill any non-cold inmune chaff by hundreds in no time. If Ashdod Giants would have a Fire Aura, I wouldn't find their 150g88r encumbrance 7 overpriced. They don't have, though. So they are overpriced.

You're wrong as a matter of fact here. Gorgon is available to multiple nations, but was only nerfed because of its availability to Sauromatia. Either QM or Llamabeast, maybe both, have said as much. So there's something specific to Sauromatia as to why it was nerfed, and as the chassis strength is clearly a feature of it in itself, that clearly isn't it because the Pans also had full access to that. By multiple nations you mean Pangea? Or id there another one?


Recruitable sacreds, otoh, and recruitable thugs, are nation specific. The logical conclusion is Sauromatia was a problem because the cheap E9N4 bless with an awake SC was too much due to the bless effect on Sauromatia's recruitables. (Whether it was thugs or troops is rather irrelevant).

Currently you can have cheap E9N4 bless with sauromatia with several options. Great Mother allows you E9N4 with Dom6 and 1 net positive scale, while the Gorgon let you have the same with 2 net positive scales. The diference in cost is not so high. The difference in effectiveness is, becouse Gorgon Chasis is 100 times better than Great Mother chasis.

[llamabeast]

If CBM wants to balance things out, maybe they should balance what is the most ubiquitous strategy in the game. E9 bless is seen in all ages, in several nations.

Obviously this might be desirable, but it isn't possible to modify the bless effects.

[Starbelly Geek]

So what's the preferred build now for Ashdod? Something like an awake rainbow with 4N and moderate scales and a roll toward strange Zamzummite skelly spam/thug reverse communions? E4S6N4 dormant to get all the Conjuration summons and Wish with a decent boost to Adons? A monolith with N4S4 and killer scales?

[WraithLord]

"
If CBM wants to balance things out, maybe they should balance what is the most ubiquitous strategy in the game. E9 bless is seen in all ages, in several nations.
"

That is not true as far as my MP experience goes. It is popular for certain nations (recruit-able thugs/SCs) but even for these there are other options, like no bless, small E4 bless, RBW bless etc.
It can be cool to take E10 bless for a giant nation once or twice but then it get's boring and certainly other options are viable. It's a general statement but one that I think is valid for any example that comes to my mind.
I challenge you (or anyone else) to find a contrary example :)

[Corinthian]

I must be in the absolute minority here because I did not ever see Ashdod as all that overpowered even in vanilla. Not that they were weak mind you. But over the course of an entire game, nations like Hinnom, Lanka, and LA Mictlan were all clearly more powerful.


The problem with Ashdod was mainly that it is so very hard for many nations to fight anakites in the early game. Witch means that whoever Ashdod chose to attack first is probably doomed unless they get help from other nations.


In this light, the Ahiman anakite nerf makes sense. It forces the player to use the Sheshai anakite instead. The Sheshai anakite is worse in the early game but probably about the same in the long run once counters start coming up. The Sheshai is cheaper and requires only half the resources witch means that it gets much more attacks. The drawback is of course that you cant make it prot22 and fatigue neutral.


Squirrelloids argument that Ashdod are an uber-thug nation is also questionable. Sure, Zamzumites from every castle was good before they were nerfed. But they were still arguably worse than un-nerfed Skrattis. And the nerfed version is also still worse than the CBM-nerfed version of the skratti.


As for adons, I never saw them as overpowered either. Nifelheim, Formoria and Hinnom all have clearly more powerful SC chassis. A third misc slot is nice and all but that also means that you have to pay for something to be put in that slot witch makes it expensive.

And that brings me tho the third problem with thugging with Ashdod. Namely the fact that Ashdod have terrible site searchers. Your best bet is to recruit Zamzummites and hope you get one with multiple paths. To sitesearch with your researchers would require a giant congaline due to them only having one path each. You can sire search remotely but that costs gems and although this is the most efficient method in the long run, those are gems you cant spend on gear for thugs.


Another problem is the fact that you are not going to see any Ashdod thugs before the end of year 2. Not only does ashdod have some truly mediocre researchers, they also need to recruit priests for their expansion parties. Cutting in to their limited mage recruitment. Even if you build hill forts and shuffle all the mages that can be recruited there without a lab to your capitol. You wont have the needed Alt 2, Conj 3 and whatever const any time soon.

[Corinthian]

If CBM wants to balance things out, maybe they should balance what is the most ubiquitous strategy in the game. E9 bless is seen in all ages, in several nations.

Obviously this might be desirable, but it isn't possible to modify the bless effects.

I think the recent prevalence of E9-10, N4-6 blesses is actually the fault of CBM. Illwinter probably knew that this bless combo was the strongest bless for many nations and they balanced it out by not giving those nations pretenders with both Earth and Nature. Especially the niefelheim nations suffered from this. The only good earth bless chassie that they could get was the Cyclops. And that one prevented them from getting diversity. There was also the great enchantress I guess, but she costed 55 points back then and had no air magic.

Now that the Master Druid have both E and N it is possible for many nations to both get a bless and diversity at the same time without sacrificing scales to much.

I'm not sure this is a bad thing mind you.

[Starbelly Geek]

And that brings me tho the third problem with thugging with Ashdod. Namely the fact that Ashdod have terrible site searchers. Your best bet is to recruit Zamzummites and hope you get one with multiple paths. To sitesearch with your researchers would require a giant congaline due to them only having one path each. You can sire search remotely but that costs gems and although this is the most efficient method in the long run, those are gems you cant spend on gear for thugs.

So... awake rainbow, then?

Another problem is the fact that you are not going to see any Ashdod thugs before the end of year 2. Not only does ashdod have some truly mediocre researchers, they also need to recruit priests for their expansion parties.

Why would they need to do that? Their non-sacred troops rock pretty hard against most indies. I'd be nervous going against wolf tribes or lizards, but most of the rest is pretty handlable, including barbarians. Ashdod's non-sacred troops are better than Hinnom's.
While the troops are conquering, your mages aren't going to outpace Tien Chi in research, but they should be able to hold their own with a M1 scale.

[rdonj]

(for MP compettitive play among veterans in 10-15 provinces per player maps at least)

Like it matters.... A group of 5+ Niefl giants produce such a cold aura that they would kill any non-cold inmune chaff by hundreds in no time. If Ashdod Giants would have a Fire Aura, I wouldn't find their 150g88r encumbrance 7 overpriced. They don't have, though. So they are overpriced.

So MP competitive play among veterans is somehow not a good measure of what optimal play involves? I don't think that reasoning flies anywhere. No one is saying that it literally can't be done, but for optimum efficiency of resources and nation potential, if you wanted Ashdod's sacreds you used an e9+n4+ bless, and you do that with every giant SC nation. There is no other bless that will allow them to kill as much for as long, or make them as powerful later in the game.

As for niefel giants, they can be quite powerful, but they're also just not strictly necessary. You can expand just as well using nothing but niefel jarls and later on you will prefer not to have the giant upkeep. So giants are largely overlooked due to not being necessary.

[Squirrelloid]

Niefl Jarls could stand to be nerfed. Niefl *Giants* not as much. In fact, its generally considered better to ignore the Niefl Giants at the moment and use Jotun Skinshifters.
I'll redirect you to Peter's elegant post named before. You should really stop using "it's commonly used that way among Llamaserver MP competitive community" as it stands for "it's commonly used that way in Dominions 3". I play outside of Llamaserver as well, and I see Niefle Giants rushes commonly.
And you still haven't answered the question: namely what other bless even conceivably works with them. Maybe because there isn't one? I'll redirect you again to Peter's post, but suffice to say that I think they are (or should be) a valid option for other blesses, like W6F6, or N9, for example. It's not that other blesses do not work with them, but that E9N4-6 is much better than any other bless (for MP compettitive play among veterans in 10-15 provinces per player maps at least). If CBM wants to balance things out, maybe they should balance what is the most ubiquitous strategy in the game. E9 bless is seen in all ages, in several nations.

(1) Considering suboptimal blesses like W6F6 for Niefl Giants doesn't help with balance decisions. You consider the best possible bless, balance the unit for using that, and that's that. If some other bless works, good for it. If no other bless works, oh well, that's the way it goes.

I find it highly doubtful that anyone has ever played Niefl Giants or Anikim with an F6W6 bless, so considering that as a viable alternative to stuff that is actually seen in game isn't really productive.

(2) Peter misses the point. My argument is not based on 'these are the blesses that are most commonly used' but 'these are the blesses which have the best performance for these chasses'. A unit with its best possible bless has to be balanced. If someone takes a suboptimal bless, that's them taking a suboptimal bless. That is not something that needs to be balanced around. If everyone played W9 Blindfighters it wouldn't change the fact that W9 is an awful bless for Blindfighters.

(3) Anikim before the nerf wouldn't work with N9 or F6W6, so i don't see how that's at all germane to the discussion. This is not something the nerf changed. Those have always been terrible blesses for Anikim.

[Valerius]

I think the reason you so frequently see EN blesses is that they are the best for commanders (both thugs and spellcasters) and commanders provide utility further into the game than sacred troops since you can swap out their gear, they usually have magic, and when not fighting they can research/site search/forge or even just preach instead of just adding to your upkeep. When it comes to combat, almost every thuggable commander can use reinvigoration, regeneration and (if you go to E9) an armor bonus. The offensive blesses don't have the same utility. Adding magic weapons to troops (F9/D9) is a big plus but not much of a selling point for thugs when you'll likely be forging magic weapons. The same thing applies to the minor blood bless - you can accomplish the same thing for a thug by forging a high damage or armor piercing weapon. The offensive bless that is most appealing to thugs is W9. This can be a real plus, especially if you don't have W mages to cast quickness but it also means that fatigue will be even more of an issue which leads you right back to an E bless. So even here you are probably better off with an E bless and eventually forging quickness gear when needed. The minor F/W blesses are useful but would you really choose +2 attack over an EN bless that saves you from having to forge gear for those purposes?

Then there's the troop side of things. Mictlan is the perfect offensive bless nation: sacreds that are cheap, easily massable, recruit everywhere, with multiple attacks (up to 6 per square), and low encumbrance and armor. Sure, you can toss on S9 (which is of course useful in the late game anyway) but otherwise they are perfect for offensive blesses. But how many other nations have these types of units? Frequently sacred troops are expensive and cap only - you will have limited numbers of them and probably would like to keep them alive rather than have them be glass cannons. And generally speaking you'll get the best return by taking a troop's strongest attributes and pushing them further. In terms of number of attacks the best case scenario is sacred cavalry with 4 attacks per square. That's not bad and you might be inclined to build on that with an FW bless, but again how many of those units will you have and how much will they cost you? Giants have even less reason to take a major offensive bless since they have so few attacks per square to begin with and they already hit hard (though a minor F bless could be useful and fit into a rainbow build).

So the way I see it EN blesses are best for commanders and can also be the best choice for many troops and I think that's why you see them so frequently. If you wanted to see more offensive blesses the easiest way would be to give more nations Mictlan-style sacreds. For instance, if you made Pan's revelers sacred I'd definitely consider an offensive bless. Of course you'd have to also have an offsetting nerf or you'd just end up with a lot of OP nations.

Btw, I don't think the E9 bless needs to be nerfed. More than ever, I think the optimal pretender build under CBM is a scales build with some key magic diversity and a light bless if appropriate. You can certainly play with an E9 bless but I don't think you'll necessarily get better results with it than you would with great scales.

[Scaramuccia]

The killer feature of E9N4 is possibility to take it with nice scales. Imprisoned druid E9N4 dom6 03/P3/C2/MisF2/M1 for example. You are getting nice scales & bless. It is very hard to get anything near with dual bless. Bathomet F9S9 will have 1 scale less and he is the perfect dual bless base.

[Corinthian]

Na. Other blesses like W9N4 would usually be even cheaper. Good E/N blessers are rare. F or W? Not so much.

The real reason that E9N4 is popular is that it can be used for more than just your troops. Forge a shroud and put it on a Cyclops or something and have it go wild! And that is only if you dont have national self-blessing thugs. Because no other bless is as good for thugging.

[triqui]

So MP competitive play among veterans is somehow not a good measure of what optimal play involves? I don't think that reasoning flies anywhere.
No, that's not what I was saying. Of course is a good measure of what is optimal play... but the optimal play has to have metagame involved.

For example, among vets in MP competitive, thugs are incredibly important. So E9N4 is an awesome bless there. But if you happen to play in different playsets, other blesses might be better. For example, if you ussually play in 1vs1 blitzes in maps with 20 provinces, probably F9W9 (or even triple bless) would be better, as it's quite probable the game is over before thugs can start to dominate. On the other hand, if you happen to play in massive multiplayer games with 20 provinces per player and 15-20 players, then maybe S9 looks better, if only becouse it gives you a Wish per turn in the late game.

[triqui]

I find it highly doubtful that anyone has ever played Niefl Giants or Anikim with an F6W6 bless, so considering that as a viable alternative to stuff that is actually seen in game isn't really productive.
I've played in MP against W9 Niefelheim, and against (or, actually, along side) F4W4N4E4 Unmarked fomorians. So, once again, I redirect you to Peter's post: dont confuse what is a specific and minoritary subset of the metagame (that is, Multiplayer competitive games in Llamaserver against vets -or at the very least people who read the guides here-, in maps that have 10-15 provinces per player and 8 players per game). There are a LOT of different ways to play. That changes what is considered "optimal". For example: I used to play in games with no diplomacy, and 2 sides set from the begining. In a situation like that, your bless might need to have in consideration things like what other nations are in your side, and what magic paths your side might need.



(2) Peter misses the point. My argument is not based on 'these are the blesses that are most commonly used' but 'these are the blesses which have the best performance for these chasses'. It's you who misses Peter's point. Those aren't the best blesses for those chasses, but the best blesses for those chasses in a metagame that involve Multiplayer Competitive fights in 10-15 provinces per player in matchs of 8 players that happen in Llamaserver among people who ussually fight using the conventional approach (ie: the "optimal build for chasses"). In a completelly different subset of metagame, other options might be better. That's actually the entire point in Peter's (excellent) post.

[Squirrelloid]

I find it highly doubtful that anyone has ever played Niefl Giants or Anikim with an F6W6 bless, so considering that as a viable alternative to stuff that is actually seen in game isn't really productive.
I've played in MP against W9 Niefelheim, and against (or, actually, along side) F4W4N4E4 Unmarked fomorians. So, once again, I redirect you to Peter's post: dont confuse what is a specific and minoritary subset of the metagame (that is, Multiplayer competitive games in Llamaserver against vets -or at the very least people who read the guides here-, in maps that have 10-15 provinces per player and 8 players per game). There are a LOT of different ways to play. That changes what is considered "optimal". For example: I used to play in games with no diplomacy, and 2 sides set from the begining. In a situation like that, your bless might need to have in consideration things like what other nations are in your side, and what magic paths your side might need.



(2) Peter misses the point. My argument is not based on 'these are the blesses that are most commonly used' but 'these are the blesses which have the best performance for these chasses'. It's you who misses Peter's point. Those aren't the best blesses for those chasses, but the best blesses for those chasses in a metagame that involve Multiplayer Competitive fights in 10-15 provinces per player in matchs of 8 players that happen in Llamaserver among people who ussually fight using the conventional approach (ie: the "optimal build for chasses"). In a completelly different subset of metagame, other options might be better. That's actually the entire point in Peter's (excellent) post.

:rolleyes:

W9 Nieflheim who lost horribly I assume? I mean, that doesn't even begin to work well. You can't expect me to even begin to consider that a serious bless for Nieflheim, with any number of players. Its strictly worse than E4N4 for Nieflheim, much less E9N4. *Not taking any bless* would be better than that.

(The Fomoria doesn't sound so bad - more scales than bless, nothing wrong with that. I'm not sure i'd call that an unmarked bless though, he just happened to use some unmarked. Scales are a viable build for most nations, with or without some light rainbow blessing.)

Some chasses have clearly optimal blesses. If you're going to use Niefl Giants, the optimal bless is obviously E9N4. Now, you may go with less than that because of cost, but that doesn't make it not the optimal bless for that chassis. And to pretend that chasses don't have optimal blesses with which they perform the best on the field is ridiculous.

Is bless the only consideration when building your pretender? Of course not. But it *is* the only consideration when it comes to judging whether or not its worth hiring a given sacred. In the context of a sacred a bless is either good or bad or indifferent. One possible bless is the best.

If people choose to use suboptimal blesses for reasons other than blessing their troops, well, that's due to considerations beside what their sacreds are. That has nothing to do with balancing sacreds. All your reasons for taking suboptimal blesses have *nothing to do with the sacreds*. So if that particular bless makes the sacreds unplayably bad, the solution is obvious - don't play with them! Use other units.

Surely you wouldn't advocate Niefl Giants should be balanced around assuming a W9 bless for them? They're clearly really bad units that aren't worth anywhere close to 125g at that point. But if we slash the price to 50g or whatever they might be worth with a W9 bless, then someone comes along with E9N4 Niefl Giants and destroys people because they're clearly undercosted. When we're talking about balancing sacreds, we should be assuming optimal blesses on those sacreds.

[triqui]

:rolleyes:

W9 Nieflheim who lost horribly I assume? I mean, that doesn't even begin to work well.
Devoured by triple bless (W9F9B6) Jaguars, as far as I remember :P. The player loved Father of Winter chasis, and went nut with it. However, it's a sign that not everybody plays "by the standards".

[Squirrelloid]

:rolleyes:

W9 Nieflheim who lost horribly I assume? I mean, that doesn't even begin to work well.
Devoured by triple bless (W9F9B6) Jaguars, as far as I remember :P. The player loved Father of Winter chasis, and went nut with it. However, it's a sign that not everybody plays "by the standards".

Yes, but if the result is 'inevitably lose horribly', then its really not something that should be taken seriously.

You're welcome to play W9 anakim and do just as well in the current CBM, if you like.

[Valerius]

I've played in MP against W9 Niefelheim,

I have to admit this build really confuses me. Even with a W9 bless Niefel giants aren't going to be dishing out many attacks but if you really wanted to double your attacks your mages can easily cast quickness on them (and of course all your Jarls can cast personal quickness). So all you get out of this is +4 defense - but as giants they are going to be completely outnumbered so that defense bonus isn't going to help them like it would a smaller unit. The only advantage I can see is if they're facing other giants but even there I'd prefer to take the earth bless as it will prevent them from getting fatigued while your cold aura and possibly your own chaff tire out your opponents (assuming they don't have their own E bless). I honestly can't think of a situation where a W9 bless would be better for Niefel than an E9 bless (even aside from the fact that strong E is a much better addition to your magic diversity than strong W).


and against (or, actually, along side) F4W4N4E4 Unmarked fomorians.

This I can see working. The nice thing about rainbow blesses is that you can usually get them just by spending a little more here and there when designing your pretender. TNN's Tuatha warriors work nicely with them as do MA Jotun's woodsmen (F4E4N4 works well though even just N4E4 will get the job done).


Those aren't the best blesses for those chasses, but the best blesses for those chasses in a metagame that involve Multiplayer Competitive fights in 10-15 provinces per player in matchs of 8 players that happen in Llamaserver among people who ussually fight using the conventional approach (ie: the "optimal build for chasses").

Well, CBM is going to have to choose something to balance against. What do you think it should be? Personally my guess is that most Dominions players play SP but there balance isn't an issue and it can actually be more interesting to have things imbalanced.

I'm not much of a minmaxer myself and there's nothing wrong with taking a build for the fun of it, but I wouldn't expect CBM to balance itself against my non-optimal builds - otherwise a true minmaxer will be able to abuse the heck out of things.

As far as different game types go, I've played several duels and obviously there you have a different focus as all you need is to defeat one opponent. IMO the main difference large and medium size games (aside from hellish micromanagement ;)) is that having your best units be cap only is more of a drawback and good scales matter more than ever.

[triqui]

Well, CBM is going to have to choose something to balance against. What do you think it should be? Personally my guess is that most Dominions players play SP but there balance isn't an issue and it can actually be more interesting to have things imbalanced.

I think it's fine balancing out against MP with 8 players per match in medium sized maps. It's a fair middleground.

However, I disagree with some of the CBM balancing decisions.

[kianduatha]

Could you give some examples please? (Other than Ahiman Anakites, that is)

[Scaramuccia]

I don't see how size of the game change availability of blesses. You wouldn't play F9W9 Ashdod in any game. Power of different blesses in different metagames will be different. But game size wouldn't promote "unplayable" bless to "playable" it could only change the best one from "playable".

There are two exceptions - additional mods(ofc) and games with small number of opponents(size doesn't matter it could be duel on 100 province map).

[triqui]

Could you give some examples please? (Other than Ahiman Anakites, that is)

Sanguine Douses being unique artifacts, for example.

I don't see how size of the game change availability of blesses. You wouldn't play F9W9 Ashdod in any game. Power of different blesses in different metagames will be different. But game size wouldn't promote "unplayable" bless to "playable" it could only change the best one from "playable"
W9F9B8 would be absolutelly atrocious bless for any nation in a game with 25 provinces per nation and 20 nations, becouse the cost in scales would make it incredibly hurtful in the long run, plus you probably won't be able to take enough adventage from your sacreds to make it worthy.
In a 1vs1 match in a 20 provinces map, that bless alone might give you the victory before a proper counter is developed.

Otoh, a bless like S9 gets extra power once Wish is developed (it gives you a wisher, your pretender), and having +3 MR in your thugs and commanders is much more relevant in turn 60 than it is in turn 20.

So yes, I think the size of the map is very important to decide bless viability, becouse size of the game / map directly influence the length of the game, and the things that are useful in turn 15 aren't the same that are useful in turn 90. Blitz matches tend to gravitic toward fast and furious blesses, making some options unviable in that specific kind of match. That does not mean the option is not viable in some other kinds of matches.

[Corinthian]

Some chasses have clearly optimal blesses. If you're going to use Niefl Giants, the optimal bless is obviously E9N4. Now, you may go with less than that because of cost, but that doesn't make it not the optimal bless for that chassis. And to pretend that chasses don't have optimal blesses with which they perform the best on the field is ridiculous.



Actually Squirrel, I have done some test and I found out that if you are taking a bless only for the Niefel giants, you are much better of with a Son of Fenrir with W4N6 and dom9.

Why? I compared him to the Master druid with a E9N4 bless and the wolf got *4* more scales and *3* points of extra dominion. The giants wont be quite as strong with this bless but you'll have much more of them and you are much more likely to fight your battles in cold dominion.

Actually strong dominion is a must with Niefelheim in general because every province without cold 3 gets income penalties. And its good for the popsicle giants in particular because of the Coldpower and Cold protection that they got.

Now the drawback is that you cant put Fire and Earth on him for diversity. Thats bad because those paths are a pain to bootstrap into unless you get lucky with indies or use Aschaic records.

This bless is also worse for your thugs (but we took it strictly for the troops). You have to put messenger boots on your skrattis if you want to thug with them. So thats 5 gems extra for every thug.

[triqui]

Actually Squirrel, I have done some test and I found out that if you are taking a bless only for the Niefel giants, you are much better of with a Son of Fenrir with W4N6 and dom9.

That's my point. You can, if you want, be creative. Sure, there are "better" blesses than others. It's hard to argue that E9 or W9 are better than A9, for example. But even if some blesses are "optimal", they should not be "the only one that is possible". There's a difference between Jaguars benefiting more from F9 than S9, and not being able to use any other bless but F9.

Encumbrance 7 in a unit with 75g44r per attack (and no damaging aura), pretty much *force* them to earth blesses. With Encumbrance 5 it'll be the best possible bless anyway, but it would not force people to take it no matter of what. Someone could try to be creative as you did with your W4N6 bless. With encumbrance 7, that's simply not an option.


Now that I think, what other units have encumbrance 7, besides Annakites and centaur Cataphracts?

[Squirrelloid]

Now that I think, what other units have encumbrance 7, besides Annakites and centaur Cataphracts?

Blindfighters? (Was 10, now 8 in CBM)

There's piles of heavily armored units with >5 encumbrance in the base game.

And the problem with enc 5 anakim is they're broken overpowered in year 1 with E10N4+. So that's not even an option. It doesn't matter if it would let other blesses work, E10N4+ is too good so it can't be allowed to happen.

[Squirrelloid]

Some chasses have clearly optimal blesses. If you're going to use Niefl Giants, the optimal bless is obviously E9N4. Now, you may go with less than that because of cost, but that doesn't make it not the optimal bless for that chassis. And to pretend that chasses don't have optimal blesses with which they perform the best on the field is ridiculous.



Actually Squirrel, I have done some test and I found out that if you are taking a bless only for the Niefel giants, you are much better of with a Son of Fenrir with W4N6 and dom9.

Why? I compared him to the Master druid with a E9N4 bless and the wolf got *4* more scales and *3* points of extra dominion. The giants wont be quite as strong with this bless but you'll have much more of them and you are much more likely to fight your battles in cold dominion.

Contradiction much? (Note emphasis added)

It may be stronger for the nation (though I highly doubt it), but its not stronger for Niefl Giants. As you admit yourself. There's a difference between a bless that's optimal for a sacred and a pretender build that's optimal for the nation.

More generally, why would you even take a Son of Fenrir, its a bad chassis that does nothing for you? A green dragon would get you the N bless and be able to expand (not that Nieflheim needs it - well, they probably do as you apparently don't plan on using Niefl Jarls).

I think you'd find that E9 doubles the expected lifetime (or more) of Niefl Giants, and you don't double your income by avoiding it, plus it makes your Niefl Jarls into SCs from turn 1. The viable alternatives to E9N4 from a nation (not Niefl Giant) perspective are E4N4-based rainbows, which use skinshifters or just Jarls to expand, and the rainbow to diversify and site search.

[Corinthian]

Oh Squirrel. You are truly the master of not reading the post you are replying to. The individual giant is weaker, the Giants are stronger! More of them gives you more damage output and because the N6 bless will protect against afflictions, (unlike the N4), the giants will also suffer less attrition.

And why would anyone ever want a green dragon for this bless? It is much more expensive! Not only is it 25p more expensive, it also starts with dom 1! I told you we need strong dominion! Niefel giants get +/- 2 points of protection and +/- 1 point of attack, defense and strength per point of cold/heat in the province. Even Niefel jarls with E9N4 blessings can die to normal indies in heat 1 dominion.

And I guess the Wolf can expand on his own if taken awake. (Why?!?!) He got fear +5 and awe from his dominion. He also have 122hp.

His water bless is a small but nice bonus. But it does add up. The real protection comes from the numbers though. More giants mean more cold auras that can stack witch means less turns the enemies remain conscious. Having more giants mean that they wont be ganged up on as much so the little water bless last longer.

I have always found the skinshifters to be rather mediocre personally. They cost to much to be massable and they simply dont have the damage output or survivability to be truly powerful. Maybe if they had two claw attacks like the normal skinshifter.

And although Jarl expansion is a neat concept, it is more economical to just send out 2-3 normal giants + a priest.

[triqui]

More generally, why would you even take a Son of Fenrir, its a bad chassis that does nothing for you? A green dragon would get you the N bless and be able to expand (not that Nieflheim needs it - well, they probably do as you apparently don't plan on using Niefl Jarls).

Why you can't use Niefl Jarls to expand with a W4N6 bless? It's not like Niefl Jarls *needs* a mandatory E9 to be able to kill a few indies...

Sure it helps against stronger indies, but it's not like you are not going to be able to expand. Specially with an Awake SC

[Starbelly Geek]

Now that I think, what other units have encumbrance 7, besides Annakites and centaur Cataphracts?

Nightmares (blessable Onyx Amazon unit) has 12 encumbrance. They're really great if you can guarantee that they won't have to fight for more than two rounds (or one if you hit them with a W9 bless). Too bad, because that massed interlocking fear aura could be so awesome.
An E10 bless makes them useful for up to four or five rounds of actual melee!

[Slobby]

It's quite possible that I'm out to left field here, but I don't really see what all this e10n* talk is about.

Squirrel is bang on with the scales build.

Scales is the way to go those commanders cost an arm and a leg! I haven't tried expanding with the non sacred smaller giants but, they look pretty good stat wise. IF I were to go for a blessing I'd rather go F4E4N4 or something like that, to maximize killing and minimize standing around waiting for the DRN to screw over your E10N* giants which you banked everything on. :)

*shrug* E9N* has been around for awhile now most people know what to do to stop it in it's tracks (swarm them giants and/or fat/paralyze/soulslay/skelli/blindness/tangle/etc spam). You're putting your eggs in one basket. Small rush map sure. Larger map, those giants are going to gas as magic comes into play and then what do you do? Even if you played an aggressive early game thats only going to get you ganked in the end. :) So yeah, imo don't bother with the e9, go scales and minor rainbow bless, and fire is necessary to maximize every attack being a hit and thereby a kill.

Anyways my 2 cents carry on. :)

[Squirrelloid]

Oh Squirrel. You are truly the master of not reading the post you are replying to. The individual giant is weaker, the Giants are stronger! More of them gives you more damage output and because the N6 bless will protect against afflictions, (unlike the N4), the giants will also suffer less attrition.

I am so done with this thread, since its not even worth debating stupid things like Fenrir being a good expanding chassis (Have you even tried it? I have, it blows), or W4N6 being a good use of your pretender for Nieflheim.

But patently false things like an N4 bless not reducing affliction chance? The heck? Corinthian, you should know better than that. Regeneration - any regeneration - reduces affliction chance by the exact same amount, which is where the N-bless affliction reduction comes from.

My only answer to the recent round of stupid is - try playing that in a real game, see how it works out for you. Heck, try W4N6 Niefl Jarls as expanding SCs. I'm pretty sure that fails horribly. But its thanksgiving, and I'm not inclined to check right now. Unblessed Niefl Jarls do die to quite a bit though, so i can't imagine that bless is going to help all that much (encumbrance kills).