Good Assassin in Conjuration?

[Hugo06]

I need a goood assassin, and i have conj 9.
Whats are the best assessins to conjure?

Thnks

[Soyweiser]

Remote assassination spells.

[brxbrx]

Also depends on what nation you're playing. I think some have assassin summons as well as remote assassination spells (LA Atlantis)

[TigerBlood]

A Harvester of Sorrows. Requires Blood in order to forge a Black Heart.

Does not need any more gear to take out an average researcher or commander. With some gear, it becomes a serious nuisance.

More expensive and less versatile than remote assassination. Not countered by domes though.

[Deathblob]

That's not really a very good idea. Harvesters sneak around with a big neon sign on their back that says, "Here I am! Mind hunt me."

[brxbrx]

Wait, you can mind hunt for stealth units in your own province?

[TigerBlood]

Active assassins and spies have the same issue of being easily located, given that spells take place before movement. At MR18, the harvester requires a focused effort or luck to take out quickly.

You have given me an idea though. Bane Venom Charm on a spectre or some other stealth astral mage...

[Gandalf Parker]

To me the assassins worth decking out are those who can cast Charm or Hellbind.
The get 2 or 3 tries at "assassination" before having to melee. And if they grab control of the person there are extra benefits.

[Deathblob]

Active assassins and spies have the same issue of being easily located, given that spells take place before movement. At MR18, the harvester requires a focused effort or luck to take out quickly.

It's not the same issue at all. You know the harvester is there the moment it hits the province, before it would even have a chance to try assassination. MR18 is no defense against Mind Hunt.

You have given me an idea though. Bane Venom Charm on a spectre or some other stealth astral mage...

That's a better plan, but S1 only blocks mind hunt less than half the time. If the hunters have recuperation or healers, they won't care about feeblemind.

[TigerBlood]

I don't understand. Mind Burn and Soul Slay are both MR negates. Of these two spells, only Soul Slay threatens a Harvester.

Granted, I have been in a game where an S4 mage somehow took out an MR30 Wyrm with one cast of Soul Slay, but I have also seen some MR16 units very persistantly resist spells cast by a mage equipped with a penetration booster. MR18 is pretty good. It can easily be improved upon.

As for distinctions on the order of assasination and casting, that is irrelevant. The moment you use an assassin, it's location is known. The moment a Harvester moves into a province and begins diseasing units, it's location is known. A black heart simply gives the Harvester something to do while it is camping on an occupied province. Considering they can thug fairly effectively, the more conventional counter to assassination, patrolling, is potentially less of an issue. If I can coerce an opponent into wasting mage turns trying to root out an obvious threat, rather than relying on mundane patrollers, then hooray for me.

[PriestyMan]

the difference with mind hunt is you have to expect at least +3 penetration, and many times +5. that makes it a lot more effective

[Scaramuccia]

S4 mind hunter - MR against 14 or die. Illithid 5s + cap + eye + spell focus + rune smasher - MR against 20 or die.

[Knai]

S4 mind hunter - MR against 14 or die. Illithid 5s + cap + eye + spell focus + rune smasher - MR against 20 or die.

Illithid 5s is not even remotely plausible for a standard issue mind hunter. 2s + cap + coin + boosters, or 3s + cap + boosters is more along the lines of what one would expect to be fairly standard, with 4s being impressive.

[Deathblob]

The order of assassination/casting is irrelevant. The point is, your enemy knows every single turn where the Harvester is, when the Harvester is in your enemy's lands.

Non-reaper assassins are fairly easy (if time-consuming) to counter as it is, but at least the only turn your enemy knows where it is, is when it actually assassinates. So if a Mind Hunt following an assassination attempt fails, your enemy wonders, is it still in the province? Or did it wander off? You can't "lay low" with a Harvester.

If you sneak your Harvester onto an army (and if you've got conj-7, he'll have mage support), the next turn:
- your enemy gets the "disease" message
- he gives patrol orders, and Mind Hunt if he is capable
- you give assassinate orders
The next next turn:
- maybe you get killed by mind hunt
- maybe you kill a commander
- the mage-supported army kills you

If you sneak your Harvester onto a forge/research center, the next turn:
- your enemy gets the "disease" message
- he gives his mages some gems & scripts them, and casts Mind Hunt if he is capable
- you give assassinate orders
The next next turn:
- maybe you get killed by mind hunt
- maybe you kill a mage, or maybe you get killed by elementals/sprites/skellyspam

[TigerBlood]

Silly me. Assassination never works as a strategy because you'll always have a mage with the perfect load out waiting to mind hunt something. Other players are never limited by other concerns during a game and will always have the appropriate mage, army and gear to root out a harvester the moment they appear. And players only ever use one assassin at a time, never send them into domed provinces or use them in conjunction with more direct forms of warfare or other ploys.

I've been playing the game wrong. I realise that now.

[Scaramuccia]

S4 mind hunter - MR against 14 or die. Illithid 5s + cap + eye + spell focus + rune smasher - MR against 20 or die.

Illithid 5s is not even remotely plausible for a standard issue mind hunter. 2s + cap + coin + boosters, or 3s + cap + boosters is more along the lines of what one would expect to be fairly standard, with 4s being impressive.

Ok your cases:

2s + cap + coin = 14
2s + cap + coin + eye = 16
2s + cap + coin + eye + smasher = 18

add +1 if you have slots for spell focus (3s or 3 misc slots).

[Scaramuccia]

The biggest problem with assassination - the reward is low. Ofc it could work, and as surprise tactic will work. But in many case it will be - you spent a lot of time and resources to kill 5 of 30 mystics in the army - omfg result, isn't it?

Powerful assassins are great thugs and assassination is just an additional option. Weak assassins in middle-late game couldn't kill anyone.

[brxbrx]

So people don't take risks in MP?

[Scaramuccia]

Assassination often is high risk/low reward strategy. And people prefer high risk/high reward.

[Deathblob]

Assassins are sometimes useful. They certainly make your opponent have to do a lot of tedious work, and they can cause havoc if they get lucky in some situations.

Harvesters are also useful, and you can fly one geared up with a lot of MR items into a province full of a bunch of old age mages and then have it leave the next month before it can be patrolled out. Or attack PD in a mass raid, and sneak away. Or sneak into a patrolling army (with the Harvester on retreat) where you own a neighbouring province.

Harvesters are just lousy assassins because they can't move into a province without your opponent knowing they are there.

[Knai]

Assassination often is high risk/low reward strategy. And people prefer high risk/high reward.

Low risk/high reward is ideal. High risk/high reward and low risk/low reward are both acceptable, with high risk/low reward being an outright bad idea unless you are really desperate.

On domes: Mind hunt has been brought up as an effective assassination counter. Domes effectively nullify this, as trying to mind hunt into a dome is an outright bad idea. It's patrol that has a chance of nabbing an assassin, and in the case of the Harvester of Sorrows or similar, it might take a few rounds before patrol is a viable option. That said, the Harvester is expensive enough that buying a mage, loading it up with whatever it takes to kill the Harvester, and calling it a day should be efficient - sure, Mind Hunt doesn't work under a dome, but Soul Slay still does, as do Charm and Enslave Mind.

[Deathblob]

Mind Hunt works if you have a mage in the dome to cast the spell.

[Knai]

Mind Hunt works if you have a mage in the dome to cast the spell.

Huh. I wasn't aware of that detail.

[Soyweiser]

Mind Hunt works if you have a mage in the dome to cast the spell.

Huh. I wasn't aware of that detail.

Really deathblob, or arth thou a christmass troll?

[brxbrx]

Mind Hunt works if you have a mage in the dome to cast the spell.

Huh. I wasn't aware of that detail.

Really deathblob, or arth thou a christmass troll?

Well, I didn't know either.

[Deathblob]

Mind Hunt works if you have a mage in the dome to cast the spell.

Huh. I wasn't aware of that detail.

Really deathblob, or arth thou a christmass troll?

Sheesh, I resemble that accusation!

Domes attempt to block most rituals when they are cast from outside the domed province and targeting the domed province. Astral Window is an exception, probably Astral Projection too, not that anyone ever casts it.

But mages inside the domed province can cast remote rituals targeting the province they are in, and the domes will not block the ritual or damage the mage because of the ritual. Some stuff you can do if you are inside a dome:

- Ghost Riders or FFTS or Earth Attack or Leprosy a besieging army
- Call of the Winds, for patrolling or siege defense
- Cast a remote Site Search spell on the current province

[Dimaz]

Yes, Deathblob is right. You can cast from the same prov.

[Soyweiser]

Wow, news to me :) super. Lets see where I can put this information on the wiki.

[janthony]

I like The Looming Hell, but it only works with a strong dominion.