The "Z" direct fire key - are they even trying

[arkhangelsk]

...to aim at the hex I've selected?

So, I designate a hex about 3 hexes away from my tank for direct fire b/c I'm trying to flush out an enemy. The tank shoots up the hex to the side, even the one two hexes to the side, back, forward ... etc everything but the hex in question.

This is at a distance of 3 hexes, with a tank gun. There's hardly even a need to aim - just pointing in the general direction should have landed rounds in the hex. This is deliberate sabotage.

I know I can't see an actual target, so my chances of getting actual kills are low. But how about at least shooting into the actual 50m wide zone? If I want to try to shoot up the other hexes, I will designate them.

Is it possible to modify the Z so that conditions for the round hitting the hex is similar to when I'm aiming at actual units?

Or are there reasons why this is impossible?

Thanks.

[scJazz]

Same thing happens when trying to fire smoke btw. When firing at an actual target rounds always land within 1 hex. I think they do it just to make things harder.

[DRG]

Close range z fire deviation has been a "B" list issue for awhile but we always have more than enough "A" list issue to deal with ahead of it.

Don

[Suhiir]

Close range z fire deviation has been a "B" list issue for awhile but we always have more than enough "A" list issue to deal with ahead of it.

Don

Many of us are overjoyed to hear it's on any list.
Thanks!

[gila]

...to aim at the hex I've selected?

So, I designate a hex about 3 hexes away from my tank for direct fire b/c I'm trying to flush out an enemy. The tank shoots up the hex to the side, even the one two hexes to the side, back, forward ... etc everything but the hex in question.

This is at a distance of 3 hexes, with a tank gun. There's hardly even a need to aim - just pointing in the general direction should have landed rounds in the hex. This is deliberate sabotage.

I know I can't see an actual target, so my chances of getting actual kills are low. But how about at least shooting into the actual 50m wide zone? If I want to try to shoot up the other hexes, I will designate them.

Is it possible to modify the Z so that conditions for the round hitting the hex is similar to when I'm aiming at actual units?

Or are there reasons why this is impossible?

Thanks.
Well the AI never uses z-fire,right?

With no enemy spotted,z-fire should be area suppression and not at all accurate.

Say a tank commander orders fire in a general direction of suspected enemy locs,and the gunner with a vague idea where he thinks its best to fire,does just that.

It's wholely different than direct fire on spotted units.
IMO this issue should stay on the b-list or even on the f-list.
It would cause alot problems when playing pbem games,just to make it even easier to beat-up the AI.

[Aeraaa]

Say a tank commander orders fire in a general direction of suspected enemy locs,and the gunner with a vague idea where he thinks its best to fire,does just that.


Yes but if say the tank commander says to the gunner "fire at that trees over there" and the gunner fires at positions without tress 50 or 100 meters away from where the commander tells him (or in game terms 1 or 2 hexes away) doesnt make much sense now does it?

[RightDeve]

The way I see it, when using Z fire for ranges more than 3 or 4 hexes away (without any LOS to the target hex), the unit would fire more accurately in the general direction of the z fire.
The thing that needs to be fixed is when firing in, say, 3 hexes without LOS. That z fire goes real wild when it is about 3 hexes away.
Other than that, the concept of Z fire is realistic enough.

[gila]

Say a tank commander orders fire in a general direction of suspected enemy locs,and the gunner with a vague idea where he thinks its best to fire,does just that.


Yes but if say the tank commander says to the gunner "fire at that trees over there" and the gunner fires at positions without tress 50 or 100 meters away from where the commander tells him (or in game terms 1 or 2 hexes away) doesnt make much sense now does it?

Point taken,
Usually at that close range,your infranty should have already spotted those bad guys excluding 0 units,unless it's afv with no grunt support or they all were suppressed,either way afv z-firing is not going to help much.;)

[BadCompany]

I've always used Z as a suppression tool. I thought the inaccuracy of the Z fire was to represent the fact that for example you may be taking fire from those woods, but you don't know exactly where those units are(The enemy haven't been directly spotted yet), so the the gunner "sprays" fire into the woods to return fire and suppress the enemy. This is why I never thought much about Z fire's inaccuracy even at close ranges, because it represented "spraying" when the exact enemy location is unknown so you can suppress them and buy time to get your units back into a better position.

[Mobhack]

Out of LOS Z fire is also deliberately randomised to reduce the "Godlike Player" effect. It's blind fire.

The "player god" has a far better feel for the overall battlefield than the elements would have if they were real men. Real units don't spray ammo over areas unless they have at least some indication that there would be someone there.

Area fire at a hex in LOS is far more effective and accurate. If you in your role as the player god "knows" there should be a squad at X,Y and "telepathically command" your men to have the inspiration to beat up the nearby area - then if X,Y is out of LOS but a nearby hex is within LOS - target that one. There will be overs and sides, but the fire will generally remain on the LOS hex, and some will spill onto the target that you the "god" knows is actually there whereas the blind firing will wander all over - and is fully intended to. No matter the range.

Cheers
Andy

[Suhiir]

Real units don't spray ammo over areas unless they have at least some indication that there would be someone there.

Apparently you never operated with the US Army!
:fire:
:fire:
:fire: :?:
:fire:
:fire:

[arkhangelsk]

Out of LOS Z fire is also deliberately randomised to reduce the "Godlike Player" effect. It's blind fire.

The "player god" has a far better feel for the overall battlefield than the elements would have if they were real men. Real units don't spray ammo over areas unless they have at least some indication that there would be someone there.

Area fire at a hex in LOS is far more effective and accurate. If you in your role as the player god "knows" there should be a squad at X,Y and "telepathically command" your men to have the inspiration to beat up the nearby area - then if X,Y is out of LOS but a nearby hex is within LOS - target that one. There will be overs and sides, but the fire will generally remain on the LOS hex, and some will spill onto the target that you the "god" knows is actually there whereas the blind firing will wander all over - and is fully intended to. No matter the range.

Cheers
Andy

I understand the theory, but sometimes there IS some indication.

For example, I am advancing with my tank+desant infantry and bump into infantry squad at about 2 hex range. The guy shoots at me but doesn't get me, and now I got him plotted on my map. I'm already moving quite fast so even if I use aimed fire at the unit my chances of hitting him are poor. Further, the idea of his return fire spraying up my tank desant infantry does not appeal to me. So I pop smoke and unload them in safety. That cut off my LOS.

First problem, I still have some shots and if this is for real, I think it is at least a valid tactic for my tank to pop some quick rounds in the quite well plotted position of the enemy to keep their heads down. But I can't do that because of the traitorous scatter.

So I just bring in my other tanks and desant and end my turn.

OK, next turn. I now have to advance on this one squad. My smoke grenades are still shutting off my LOS, but he hasn't moved. In real life, what I want to do is spray some Z-fire in his general direction to distract him while working a squad to his flank.

But I can't do that either. If I try that, the Z fire is more likely fire into the neighboring hex (60 degrees off, with one of my squads in it) than the target hex!

So not wanting to wait for the artillery, I tried to move the flanking squad at the lowest possible speed and the enemy clips off 2 of my men and inflicts about 23 points of suppression, putting it into Retreating status. It would likely not have happened if I were allowed to fire some distracting fire.

I respectfully submit there must be a better way to handle this. Z fire isn't that effective anyway, so I don't think it'll be some game-breaker if it is handled more similarly to aimed fire.

How about at least relegating this mega-Z scatter into a Preference?

[wulfir]

I respectfully submit there must be a better way to handle this. Z fire isn't that effective anyway...


Depends, Z fire can actually be very effective. Especially newbie PBEM players used to combat AI led forces will be in for a world of hurt against experienced players who master the art of Z fire.

[duff]

It seems most people use "Z" on enemies not yet spotted. Am I the only one who often uses out of sight infantry/MG on the advance AFTER spotting the enemy but before firing with units that can see? It helps the front unit get close and do the damage without getting shot up by return fire.

[Aeraaa]

No, I actually do it all the time.

[Oche]

It seems most people use "Z" on enemies not yet spotted. Am I the only one who often uses out of sight infantry/MG on the advance AFTER spotting the enemy but before firing with units that can see? It helps the front unit get close and do the damage without getting shot up by return fire.

Yes, it is effective to use Infantry/MG fire but also cannon, tank and mortar fire with LOS as well too. What i never do is use the "Z" key on areas where there hasn't been any hidden fire shot from yet, if you do otherwise you could probably reveal your location and intentions too soon to the enemy besides wasting ammo and begging for a rain of artillery on your men.

[Suhiir]

Since in anything but a set-piece scenario I play my revised USMC OOB I use my Scout-Snipers to do what they're there for ... scout.
Since sniper class units they're VERY effective at it, as they should be.