Polish OOB 5.5

[Pibwl]

It's time to start suggestions on the Polish OOB.

Main sources for AFVs:
- J. Magnuski: "Wozy bojowe LWP 1943-1983" (AFVs of the Polish People's Army)
- article J. Kajetanowicz: "Polskie wojska pancerne i zmechanizowane w latach 1955-1990" in Poligon nr.3/2010 (Polish armoured and mechanized weapons 1955-1990)
- article J. Kajetanowicz: "Prace nad rozwojem sprzętu pancernego w Polsce - przegląd lat 1955-1990" in Poligon nr.5/2010 (Works upon AFV development in Poland)

001 PT-76 - commissioned from 1958 (now: 1/56) [Poligon 5/2010] - needs date change in formation #08. Standard ammo load included 10 AP, 5 sabot and 5 Heat instead of 10AP, 10 Heat [Russian Tekhnika i vooruzhenie 9/2008]

019 PT-76B - variant B was bought in 1962 (now: 1/77) [Poligon 5/2010]. Should be used until 1975 (now: 12/96), then replaced with new variant with DShK and improved vision. Ammo load as above.

702 Marynarka PT-76 - should be named just PT-76B. This name makes no sense (literally "Navy PT-76"), for no Polish amphibian tanks were used by the Navy - landing units belonged to the Army. It should be Polish-modified variant with added DShK AAMG and vision=15-20, used from 1972 (now 1/75) [Poligon 5/2010]. Withdrawn by 1992 (now: 12/96). Machine gun should be #64 PKT instead of #62 SGMT (introduced in PT-76B since 1967 - though it's actually worse weapon in the game...). Icon should be ordinary green 2680, as color photos confirm, not grey.

Weight of PT-76s actually was 14 t (10). I know, that some tanks in the game have exact weight, some not, but I'll try to point out differences from real weight, especially, that same tanks in the OOB happen to have different weights. It might be ignored, if it's considered not important.


002 T-34/85 (Med.tank) - early T-34/85s definitely didn't use Heat rounds - should be replaced with 5 Sabot (in fact, according to quoted Russian source, standard load was 36 HE, 14 AP, 5 sabot - which does not seem practical in tank game). Weight should be 32t (22), like in Russian oob and unit #11.

011 T-34/85 M1 (Obs.tank) - better way of writing is "T-34/85M1" - in fact it could be named just "T-34/85M", because M1 and M2 were only project codes (often found in books, though), and a designation was just M [Poligon 5/2010]. Crew of M variant should be 4.

(I don't know if it fired BK-2/BK-2M Heat rounds, but this is their only chance...)

650 T-34/85 M1 (Obs.tank) - as above. It is doubful, if it fired earlier Heat ammunition, before BK-2. I suggest to arm it as #653 below, with no Heat.

653 T-34/85 M1 (Med.tank) - in fact, M1 modification was introduced only in 1960 (now 1/51). It could be renamed just "T-34/85" and became a tank with slightly improved post-war ammunition of "367" series (see thread http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=48212 ). Then, it should have crew 5(4), RF 3 (2) and ROF 7(6), like unit #002 (there's no reason for lower RF and ROF in this unit)

I suggest to arm it with #230 85mm D44 Gun 69 with no Heat, or #231 modified as below.

By the way: weapon #231 85mm D44 ATG could have increased Sabot penetration. Now it is identical as 85mm ZiS S-53 (AP 12, Sabot 16), while according to that Russian page http://vadimvswar.narod.ru/ALL_OUT/TiVOut9597/SuPTO/SuPTO034.htm , max penetration of APCR BR-367P was 210@500m (AP was similar - 119mm). Even older APCR BR-365P pierced 180@100m.

013 T-34/76 M1943 - better name is just T-34/76 (designation M1943 is used only in modern books, wasn't used in service and is redundant, since we have only one T-34/76). Weight should be some 28t (21)

Special variants:

250 T-34/85 PT54 - Speed of T-34 with mine roller was stated in Soviet sources only at 25 km/h [Poligon (Russian) 2/2002]. Possibly ammo should be redistributed to more balanced load, like a standard tank, or is there some rule concerning rollers? Anyway, early T-34/85 didn't use Heat. Weight should be 32 - plus 8t of roller.

Lowering speed should concern all tanks with heavy rollers PT-34 (5 ton), PT-54 (8 ton), KMT-5 (7 ton). KMT-4 and 6 were just blades.

251 T-34/76 PT34 - weight 28t + 8 (21), speed as above.

413 PT-34 - I can't see a difference (but a wrong LBM of T-34/85) from #251 T-34/76 PT34, and it seems redundant. Besides, PT-34 was not a proper name for a vehicle, only for a roller.

418 T-34/76 BTU - weight should be some 30 with dozer (21)

419 T-34/85 PT34 - I think there's no reason why it couldn't be used from 1946 (now: 1/50). Notes on ammo and speed like unit 250, but weight - some 32+5 t (22).

766 T-34/85 BTU - weight should be some 33 with dozer (22). No Heat ammo on early tanks.

Michal

[DRG]

I thought I have made it clear in other posts at other times that "weight" is and abstraction in the game had has NOTHING to do with how much something like a tank weighs so just IGNORE weight. The ONLY use tank "weights" are is to determine how many might fit into a landing craft so any weight above 27 means one tank fits, anything below 27 means two tanks fits.

IDK when people "decided" this meant how many tons a tank weights but it should be obvious it's not as the upper limit a unit can weigh and still be transportable is 55 because 255 is the highest number the game can use. If you follow the weight= actual weight logic once you get to "56 ton tank" you will never be able to transport it in anything in the game.

So don't bother cluttering up your report with "weight" issues and it will be easier for me to get through


Don

[DRG]

Michal

Please explain what I am to make of reports like this.....



019 PT-76B - variant B was bought in 1962 (now: 1/77) [Poligon 5/2010]. Should be used until 1975 (now: 12/96), then replaced with new variant with DShK and improved vision. Ammo load as above.




and then this


702 Marynarka PT-76 - should be named just PT-76B. This name makes no sense (literally "Navy PT-76"), for no Polish amphibian tanks were used by the Navy - landing units belonged to the Army. It should be Polish-modified variant with added DShK AAMG and vision=15-20, used from 1972 (now 1/75) [Poligon 5/2010]. Withdrawn by 1992 (now: 12/96). Machine gun should be #64 PKT instead of #62 SGMT (introduced in PT-76B since 1967 - though it's actually worse weapon in the game...). Icon should be ordinary green 2680, as color photos confirm, not grey.




In the first case you are suggesting unit #19 "Should be used until 1975 ....then replaced with new variant with DShK and improved vision.


OK one ends 12/75 the next with the DShK and improved vision starts 1/1976... that seems simple enough but then you say #706, the Navy PT-76, shouldn't be a Navy PT-76 and should be green not grey ( OK. fair enough so far but I'm hoping Blazej will show up to defend his OOB ) but then you say it should be a PT-76B and it should start 1972 with the improved vision and the DShK and that contradicts what you wrote in the line above saying the improved version with the improved vision and the DShK should start after 1975.

So what's correct Michal ?? 1972 or 1976 ??? You've already quibbled about a 2 year difference in the start date of Unit 1 then a few lines later give me inconsistent info for virtually the same vehicle. I'm happy to make the corrections to imporve the OOB but we're not off to a great start here as you told me to start one new unit at two different start dates

Please fully review your "corrections" for inconsistencies like this before posting them.

Thank you



Don

[DRG]

It's best to put a stop to bad habits early



650 T-34/85 M1 (Obs.tank) - as above. It is doubful, if it fired earlier Heat ammunition, before BK-2. I suggest to arm it as #653 below, with no Heat.



The CORRECT way to write that would have been to note down how THIS unit is to be armed then when you get to the next one refer back to that. NOT the other way around as you have done here. Why should I have to look up info from an item further down on the list than I am working on ? All that does is slow down an already slow and tedious process

Don

[DRG]

653 T-34/85 M1 (Med.tank) - in fact, M1 modification was introduced only in 1960 (now 1/51). It could be renamed just "T-34/85" and became a tank with slightly improved post-war ammunition of "367" series (see thread http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=48212 ).


PLEASE do NOT put in links refering to other posts on this forum for info. I work from a list that does not use active links and am frequently off line while working and I'm not happy about having to log on then waste precious time wading through a series of posts to (maybe) figure out what you want. If you want something, write it down in the post you are asking for it


Thank you


Don

[Pibwl]

OK, feel free to point out how to make your work easier.

As for weight - I didn't even think to check it, but I saw two T-34/85s weighing 22 and 32, so... Of course, I can ignore it in the future.

BTW: I'm not suggesting to change it, but the easiest way to overcome problem of max weight 55 would be to assign 55 to all tanks above 54 tons.

Michal
PT-76

In the first case you are suggesting unit #19 "Should be used until 1975 ....then replaced with new variant with DShK and improved vision.

OK one ends 12/75 the next with the DShK and improved vision starts 1/1976... that seems simple enough but then you say #706, the Navy PT-76, shouldn't be a Navy PT-76 and should be green not grey ( OK. fair enough so far but I'm hoping Blazej will show up to defend his OOB ) but then you say it should be a PT-76B and it should start 1972 with the improved vision and the DShK and that contradicts what you wrote in the line above saying the improved version with the improved vision and the DShK should start after 1975.


Sorry, I haven't made it clear enough. The source says, that the tanks were modified in 1972-1975 years, so I took 1972 as the first date of the modified tank, and 1975 as the last date of unmodified one.

As for icon - I've checked it again. Indeed, J. Magnuski wrote, that seaborne landing vehicles are painted in "grey-steel". On the other hand, color drawings in books, like Magnuski's "Czołg pływający PT-76" TBiU series, always depict green tanks, with landing division's badges. The problem is, that color photos show tanks in some drab shade, rather green than grey, but hard to be named with certainty due to film quality or lighting conditions. Everybody can see a color, which he'd like to see... So we might keep it, until we're 100% sure.

As for Blazej "defending his OOB" - if he has a sources for doubtful issues, that's perfect ;)

Regards
Michal

[Pibwl]

T-54/55 family

003 T-54B - there's no sign, that T-54B was used in Poland. Especially it isn't mentioned in the quoted book nor articles on Polish post-war armoured units and AFV development. Basic tank, produced since 1958 in Poland was T-54A, then replaced with T-55. It is doubtful, than some insignificant and unnoticed number of T-54B was bought abroad instead of buying a licence to production. To be removed IMO.

004 TO-54, 007 TO-55, 021 TO-34 - should be removed with corresponding formation 11. Poland never had flame tanks (TO-54 and TO-55 were non-numerous variants BTW).

005 T-55A (64-73) - produced and used from 1968 only (now 1/64, which is correct for basic T-55) [Poligon 3/2010]. Soviet T-55A has FC=7 (now:5). CMG should be #64 PKT.

Heat ammo was never such numerous in Soviet tanks, at least early ones (now: 15 HE, 15 AP, 13 Heat). I suggest 20 HE, 15 AP, 8 Heat as closer to truth.
(In fact, according to Tekhnika i vooruzhenie 9/2008, Soviet standard load for T-55 was 22 HE, 15 AP and 6 Heat, but this is tank-heavy game... You decide)

006 T-55AM Merida (86-94) - Fire control is much underrated (15) - Soviet T-55AM with Volna FCS and T-72A have 20, Czech T-55AM with Kladivo FCS has 25. Polish Merida FCS was more advanced, than Volna and T-72M1's system, and not worse than Kladivo. It had among others digital computer, wind and temperature sensor, adjustments for pressure, barrel wear, propellant temperature etc. I think that it should have also double number of SD/VIRSS - it has 16 tubes in all (now: SD 1, VIRSS 1). Speed was reportedly lower due to weight - some 16 (18).

008 T-55AM Merida (Obs. tank, 95-102) - as 006

012 T-54A (56-67) - vision should be 10, like in Soviet tank (now: 20) - basic version had no night vision devices, maybe only for a driver. FC in Soviet OOB is only 3 (5) (though I don't insist it should be lowered to such small value ;)

There should be no Heat - spinless 3BK5 was introduced in the USSR only in 1961 (I suspect, that in Poland a couple years later), and there was no earlier Heat round for D-10 gun mentioned in Russian sources. In Tekhnika i Vooruzhenie 10/2008 monograph on T-54 there is ammo for T-54A quoted: 20 HE, 14 AP.

The article in Poligon 3/2010 implies, that T-54A was used from 1957 only (now 1/56), but there is no explicit statement. Personally I'd change it - seems, that they were used in divisions only from 1957.

014 T-54AM (68-73) - it's better to change to AM1 modification, with increased ammo load (AM was just a modification of A with additional fuel tanks, AM1 had further improvements, like rotating turret floor, increased ammo load, modernized drive, deep wading kit, etc - period from 68 is OK) [Poligon 5/2010].
They don't explain "increased" ammo load regarding this variant, but it should be most probably 43 rounds, like T-55 produced at the same time (I suggest 22 HE, 15 AP, 6 Heat).
There is no mention, if this modification received night vision gear - probably not yet. FC should probably be the same as T-54A.

028 T-55U (74-81) - it was T-54A modernized to T-55A standard - ammo load should be 43 (now 34). I suggest 20 HE, 15 AP, 8 Heat (now: 16,9,9). CMG could be still #62 SGMT, if it worked well... (there's no info in available sources)

(In fact, there aren't known any peculiar game-relevant differences between T-55A, T-55U, T-55M - all were in the same standard, differing in details and lack of anti-radiation lining on T-55U. Available sources don't tell however, if sights were changed.)

211 T-55M (82-85) - modernized T-55. I suggest 19 HE 9 Heat (now: 15/13).

651 T-55AM Merida (Obs.tank, 95-102) - there seems no difference from unit 008 - redundant?

654 T-55U (Obs. tank, 82-92) - ammo load should be 43 (now 34) (I suggest add 4 HE and 3 AP). CMG could be still #62 SGMT.

656 T-55M (Obs.tank 86-99) - I suggest 19 HE 9 Heat (now: 15/13)

714 T-55 (58-73) - produced in Poland from 1964 only [Poligon 3/2010] (now 1/58 - BTW, this date would be impossible, since T-55 in Soviet OOB appears in 1/58, and in fact commissioned in 5/58).
Basic model T-55 had no AAMG (confirmed by photos), but still retained SGMT BMG.

717 T-55M (74-81) - I suggest 19 HE 9 Heat (now: 15/13)

720, 721 T-54 (55-60, 58-68) - I've found information, that in 1955 there was bought only 1 T-54 as a pilot model [Militaria i Fakty 2/2003]. There's no sign of using greater number, especially in quoted articles on Polish post-war armoured units and AFV development. There's also no mention on T-54 being a subject of subsequent modernization, like T-54A/AM. To be removed IMO.


Special variants:


210 T-55/BTU Dozer - T-55 were used from 1964 only (now: 1/60-12/61). Maybe it should be changed to T-54A, and made available until early 70s (then ammo load 34, DShK AAMG, vision=10, stabilizer=1, FC=3?).

217 T-54A PT-54 - stabilizer should be 1 (0), FC 3 (2), and ammo load 34 (20 HE, 14 AP) (now 43). Road speed with PT-54 heavy roller was in fact only 30 km/h [Tekhnika i Vooruzhenie 10/2008]
Probably used from 1/57 (now: 1/56) - see #012.

218 T-55A KMT-5 - since this tank is HE-oriented, better ammo distribution is regulation Soviet: 22 HE, 15 AP, 6 HEAT (now 30 HE, 13 Heat). Or is there a rule, that mine rollers should have HE and Heat only?.. Speed with KMT-5 roller should be below 40 km/h.

219 T-55AM2P KMT-6 - Polish designation was T-55AM, but it might be renamed AMS - engineer's dedicated variant with mine plough (and MCLC). FC - like 006 Merida. Part of Heat rounds should be replaced with AP or Sabot. CMG should be #64 PKT.

225 T-55/BTU Dozer - T-55 were used from 1964 only (now: 1/62-12/67). Basic variant had no AAMG. Part of Heat rounds should be replaced with AP (now: 10).

226 T-55A USCz-55 - most of Heat rounds should be replaced with AP (now: 16!). CMG should be #64 PKT.

227 T-55AMS USCz-55 - FC - like 006 Merida. Part of Heat rounds should be replaced with AP or Sabot.

Michal
I'm hoping Blazej will show up to defend his OOB

I'm not going to attack this OOB, only to improve (and correct it) :D

Michal

[Marcello]

004 TO-54, 007 TO-55, 021 TO-34 - should be removed with corresponding formation 11. Poland never had flame tanks (TO-54 and TO-55 were non-numerous variants BTW).

If you have a source clarifying the export or lack thereof of the flamethrowr variants, it is going to be worth its weight in gold.

Heat ammo was never such numerous in Soviet tanks, at least early ones (now: 15 HE, 15 AP, 13 Heat). I suggest 20 HE, 15 AP, 8 Heat as closer to truth.

HEAT issue varied widely across countries, years and situation. There is nothing wrong with a lowish HEAT loadout if no info is available, since HEAT was indeed expensive and often issued in limited quantities, but it should be noted that as far the T-54/55 are concerned BK-5/BK-5M was for a long time the only ammo that stood a chance to penetrate postwar western MBTs head on; as such there was an incentive to increase it.

There should be no Heat - spinless 3BK5 was introduced in the USSR only in 1961 (I suspect, that in Poland a couple years later), and there was no earlier Heat round for D-10 gun mentioned in Russian sources. In Tekhnika i Vooruzhenie 10/2008 monograph on T-54 there is ammo for T-54A quoted: 20 HE, 14 AP.

BK-5 may have been available since 1958 to USSR. Yugoslavia supposedly did get some in 1961.

[DRG]

When there is a discrepancy between a unit in the Russian OOB and an identical unit in any other OOB the Russian OOB info shall be deemed correct.

The Russian OOB was extensively reworked a couple years ago but unit updating did not extend to customer states because there simply wasn't enough time to do that. So yes, if there are differences in the Polish or Czech or East German or whatever nations units for an identical Russian one then the Russian info should be used.

It's been my intent to make those corrections when time allows but I keep getting piled on and never get the chance so it's going to be done in increments

PLEASE NOTE---none of that applies to ANY 125mm gun/ammo issue. That work has already been done and Russia uses combinations of Sabot and HEAT not found in other OOB's. AND the correct ammo for Russian supplied main guns has already been made to customer states. What I am refering to is FC or RF or stabilizers mainly


Don

[Pibwl]

As for flamethrower tanks: unfortunatley, Russian sources don't tell explicitly, that "they weren't exported". They only don't tell anything about their export, which also may be some hint. There were made only 110 TO-54, and TO-55 wasn't numerous either (no exact data are given).

When there is a discrepancy between a unit in the Russian OOB and an identical unit in any other OOB the Russian OOB info shall be deemed correct.


That's why I pick these discrepancies.


AND the correct ammo for Russian supplied main guns has already been made to customer states. What I am refering to is FC or RF or stabilizers mainly


By the "correct ammo" you mean penetration values for specific guns only?..

Michal

[DRG]

AND the correct ammo for Russian supplied main guns has already been made to customer states. What I am refering to is FC or RF or stabilizers mainly


By the "correct ammo" you mean penetration values for specific guns only?..

Michal

I shall endeavor to be more clear in the future

In SP "ammo" differences and improvements are reflected by the stats in the "weapon" or "gun" so in this case I was refering to the distribution of different HEAT and SABOT ammo types ( like BM-9 or BK-12 etc etc etc etc) to the Russian and other states using the 125mm gun and NOT the distrubution of HEAT and Sabot or HE etc ammo to the UNIT itself.

Don

[Marcello]

As for flamethrower tanks: unfortunatley, Russian sources don't tell explicitly, that "they weren't exported". They only don't tell anything about their export, which also may be some hint. There were made only 110 TO-54, and TO-55 wasn't numerous either (no exact data are given).

Well, production numbers are already a start and certainly lean heavily towards them not being exported to everyone and his uncle. Generally I tend to be cautious on such matter, as proving the absence of something is always harder than the reverse. So far I have only asked for the T-62 flamethrowers to be removed from the OOBs I focused on, as I got info that no such variant was mass produced and likely not even designed.

That being said there is always the possibility that a nation or two got delivery of such niche equipment, therefore I asked.
It appears that North Korea possibly got some OT-34s based on the 1943 model for example but I have yet to verify it.

[DRG]

I have already removed the T-62 flame tanks from any OOB that used them.

If someone discovers they actually did exist I'll put them back in.

Don

[Pibwl]

So far I have only asked for the T-62 flamethrowers to be removed from the OOBs I focused on, as I got info that no such variant was mass produced and likely not even designed.

That being said there is always the possibility that a nation or two got delivery of such niche equipment, therefore I asked.
It appears that North Korea possibly got some OT-34s based on the 1943 model for example but I have yet to verify it.

M. Baryatynski doesn't list such T-62 variant in his "Sovetskaya bronetankovaya tekhnika 1945-95" vol.1.
As for OT-34 in Korea - delivering wartime surplus, made in 1170 units, is more likely, than TO-54/55.

Michal

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Well we've certainly run into this problem before. Unfortunately it would seem that the older the equipment the harder it is to find tangible and reliable information on it unless your dealing with historical issues associated with wars. So with that in mind and with the understanding that a couple of these refs are relevant to the current discussion going on in the other two threads from yesterday, I shall attempt to "muddy the waters" a little on the flame tank issue at hand for the T-62 or if you will the OT-62. Bottom line I think we're left with a conundrum.

First; I've put this out there elsewhere probably in the MBT thread but the USA felt the Soviets had this tank as it appears in INO534 Edition D Lesson 1; Note the TERMINAL LEARNING OBJECTIVE Section before moving on.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/accp/in0534/lsn1.htm

Second; A useful site you've seen before from me and some others, but before you start go right to the bottom and read his Source section first. Alright please!
http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/cv/tank/T-62.html

Third; Side note info on OT-54 and OT-55.
http://www.morozov.com.ua/eng/body/tanks/ot-54.php
WHEN IN DOUBT GO TO THE BUILDER. Below and at the bottom right you can see the only prototype left of "OBJECT 483" from above.
http://tankmuseum.ru/p2.html

Fourth; Though now in the Ukraine it was one of the PRIMARY tank plants used by the Soviet Union/Russia. The others are in Kirovsky (No longer making them.) and currently the three major tank assembly plants in Russia are KharTcov, Nizhniy Tagil (Developer of the T-62.) and Omsk. These guys below built most of them based on it's location to the "front lines" and other factors. Explore it lots of good info here especially clicking on the tank types for all the standard version info along side the let us show you what we can do with them now stuff in the upgrade packages section. Vehicles section will show you all the tanks built under "Russian influence".
http://www.morozov.com.ua/eng/index.php?page=m1

Well I'm of before I get in trouble!! Have a great weekend!

Regards,
Pat

[Marcello]

Well we've certainly run into this problem before. Unfortunately it would seem that the older the equipment the harder it is to find tangible and reliable information on it unless your dealing with historical issues associated with wars. So with that in mind and with the understanding that a couple of these refs are relevant to the current discussion going on in the other two threads from yesterday, I shall attempt to "muddy the waters" a little on the flame tank issue at hand for the T-62 or if you will the OT-62. Bottom line I think we're left with a conundrum.

First; I've put this out there elsewhere probably in the MBT thread but the USA felt the Soviets had this tank as it appears in INO534 Edition D Lesson 1; Note the TERMINAL LEARNING OBJECTIVE Section before moving on.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/accp/in0534/lsn1.htm

Second; A useful site you've seen before from me and some others, but before you start go right to the bottom and read his Source section first. Alright please!
http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/cv/tank/T-62.html


We discussed (http://208.84.116.223/forums/index.php?showtopic=24574) this in the past on tanknet (likely in some other thread as well IIRC). The conclusion was that somebody (likely at Jane's) at some point, likely during the Cold War, must have assumed that since flamethrower variants had been produced for the T-34/54/55 then the T-62 must have had it too. This turned out to be a faulty assumption.

[Marcello]

As for OT-34 in Korea - delivering wartime surplus, made in 1170 units, is more likely, than TO-54/55

Note however that OT-34s were made throught the war, so it is not a given that there were many more of them at the end of the WW2 than OT-54/TO-55 at the end of their production run.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

I should clarify, I meant the ref itself not the current "OT-62" or other flamethrower tank discussions. I believe I posted that ref for overall Russian tank general info and for you game designers. My only conclusion is 1) Like my service JANES was a great resource, but let me ensure everyone they had non-public versions as well. 2) Our primary resources were all intel driven military resources as the first source document was were JANE'S was one component of. 3) I believe therefore they had them though the OT-54 and OT-55 versions were somewhat more readily available. Bottomline overall maybe not enough of them to make a game difference except to add some flavor to the game. And Lord only knows this is the only forum I have time for and on that note duty calls soon.

Regards,
Pat

[Pibwl]

Note however that OT-34s were made throught the war, so it is not a given that there were many more of them at the end of the WW2 than OT-54/TO-55 at the end of their production run.

Yes, but 309 were made in 1942, 478 in 1943, 383 in 1944, so more than a half should survive until the end. Then 331 OT-34/85 were made. They were replaed in units just with OT-54.

Michal

[Pibwl]

Back to the main subject - we came to PT-91 Twardy... I must say, that there is a problem with this tank.

First, we should keep in mind, that after a fall of communism, funding for the Polish Army was always scarce, Polish tanks weren't used in any conflicts in that period (including Iraqi and Afghan missions), and a situation in Europe is calm, so there was a natural tendency to save money on tanks...

Armour issue:
We have three versions of PT-91 in the game, with different armour: HF/TF steel 40/40, 55/59 and 60/65. In fact, all articles in the Polish military press since prototype presentation in 1993 agree, that all PT-91s present similar level of basic protection, as T-72M1, and the only change is ERA (among others, in Nowa Technika Wojskowa (nTW) 5/93, 4/98, 5/99, 8/99, 9/2007 - especially thorough are last two). Despite a hull was redesigned, but its shape and technology obviously remained the same, as in T-72M1. The Poles didn't carry works on own modern multi-layer front armour by that time - there was no such need in the 80s, because there was a fresh licence to produce T-72M1, regarded as a modern tank, and there were plans to replace it with T-72S (pity, that a licence wasn't bought before fall of communism).

Main improvement of PT-91, enhancing its capabilities over T-72M1, were to be ERA and new fire control system and vision devices (among other improvements was VIRSS system with laser warning system, a bit stronger engine, better ergonomics and crew's safety, modern firefighting system). The only element said to be strengthened, was bottom (against mines - I guess it has no effect in the game).

A production of new PT-91s lasted only in 1995-1997 years, and it is known, that they weren't later modernized in any significant way (not counting stronger engine in two dozen vehicles PT-91M). After this date, further PT-91 were obtained in a way of modernizing T-72M1 tanks in 1998-2002, obviously retaining their hulls and turrets. New and modernized tanks are virtually not distinguished, and all are named just "PT-91" tanks (modernized T-72s are designated in documents PT-91MA1, but it is never used in practice). Definitely their basic armour structure wasn't changed during the service, which would be difficult and expensive, if possible. Article in nTW 9/2007 says explicitly, that even tanks of modernized variant for Malaysia retained basic armour on T-72M1 level, despite new works on multilayer armour carried in Poland.

There were published many articles in military press, suggesting a need of PT-91's modernization. All agree, that armour protection isn't very good, but as tanks are getting old, nobody views armour strengthening to be feasible (earlier some enthusiastic authors suggested a whole new turret, with 120mm gun at best). There are suggested instead other ways to enhance the tank's capabilities, like (in order of cost/effect) new ammunition, new stabilizer, newer model of 125 mm gun, new engine and transmission, eventually new fire control system (all these things were in fact applied to the Malaysian export PT-91). As a result of limited funds, none of these proposals were accepted so far. It looks like the MoD waits until the tanks happily live their lifespan without any scars and the problem gets solved...

Therefore, all PT-91s in the game, from the beginning, should have the same armour - basically the same as T-72M1. As for sides, only rubber skirts were replaced with tin ones. It also should apply to Malaysian PT-91.

However, as for T-72M1 itself, I don't know, if it shouldn't have the same armour, as Russian T-72A1.

By the way, there is a possible inconsistency in the Russian OOB. I assume, that T-72A1 (designation not used in Russian sources) is a late production "Dolly Parton" model of T-72A. In the game it has weaker TF steel armour (40 vs 45), though (it has stronger turret from other sides and TF heat armour 57 vs 56). Is it assumed, that a ceramic core worsened AP resistance? But if T-72A is the model without the ceramic core, it shouldn't have much better HEAT resistance, than steel armour. T-72A1 also has thicker HF steel armour: 40 vs 34 (I understand, due to welding of an additional plate), but no change against Heat: 45. I'm writing it in this topic because of a possible impact on Polish tanks.

ERA issue

I'm afraid, that Polish ERAWA isn't advanced ERA, unlike Soviet Kontakt-5. According to an article by its designer A. Wisniewski, it decreases penetration of HEAT rounds by 50-70% (ERAWA-1) or over 70% (ERAWA-2) and sabot rounds by 30-40% [nTW 2-3/94].
You must decide, if it's "advanced ERA" in game terms - it doesn't stop sabot round as a rule, only decreases its penetration. Maybe it is a justification to increase basic steel armour to values similar to #010 PT-91A1 Twardy (60/65 steel armour)?... But then, isn't it double protection: increased armour and advanced ERA?
Maybe a number of ERA should be increased?

Contrary to Soviet T-72s and most other tanks with ERA, ERAWA bricks on PT-91 are more numerous, tightly fitted and very thoroughly cover hull's and turret's front and forward part of sides and roof, with few gaps.

The same applies for Malaysian tank.

Gun issue

Unfortunately, as for now PT-91s use only obsolete and poor models of Soviet ammunition from the 70s - first generation used with T-72. The best APFSDS is steel BM-15 (apart from it, worse BM-9, 12, 17), the only HEAT are BK-12 and BK-14.

In 1998 there was shown more modern APFSDS Pronit Ryś, with Israeli tungsten core - but reportedly only a small party of 1000 were made, due to unsatisfactory penetration (500-540 mm RHA, worsening in frost), and they aren't used in practice. There were also developed one or two Polish rounds, but didn't reach production stage.

There were no new Heat rounds bought nor even proposed and it seems, that no development nor import in this field is planned. As for now, there are no announced plans to buy new APFSDS in following years, but it is possible.

So, tanks with old guns should be available from beginning until end. There should be option with Pronit APFSDS, but old Heat, maybe from 1999 - maybe it should have several Pronit available as Sabot, and more BM-15 as AP?

There is however one more option I think of. In case of a "real" war threat in Europe, it may be assumed, that Poland would hastily buy some modern 125mm ammo in Israel or Ukraine (or even Russia - although many players may view Russia as a "natural" enemy in such hypothetical scenario). Such tanks could be available as option, and marked as "PT-91 (wartime)" or similar.

Conclusion
To sum up, I think, that there should be 4 tanks PT-91:
1 - basic model, basing upon #018, available all the time

2 - basic model with Pronit sabot ammo, from some 1999 (gun may replace #161 125mm PO-1 Gun, with old sabot as AP, new 50-54 penetration sabot and old Heat, definitely no "multi-charge Heat")

3 - hypothetical wartime model, with improved gun, available from?... (gun may be, say, #130 125mm PO-2 Gun or #131 125mm PO-1+ Gun, or modified one, although obtaining of "multi-charge Heat" is doubtful)

All Polish PT-91s should have FC 35, and stabilizer 3 (the later wasn't improved since T-72M1 and is most often criticized element). AAMG should be #17 NSVT. Survivability might be improved over T-72M1 (new firefighting system). All should have more SD - 24 tubes in total (now: 2 SD, 2 VIRSS).

4 - assumed modernized model, from some 2014, with same armour, improved gun, stabilizer 4-5, FC maybe 40-45 (if PT-91 are modernized at all, it is doubtful, that FCS will be completely changed to something new, like Savan-15). Obtaining of any new Heat rounds during normal modernization is doubtful, especially multi-charge Heat (rather Sabot ammo).

Passing on to peculiar units:

009 PT-2001 Twardy - to be removed. Around 2002 there were analyses of arming PT-91 with 120 mm Rheinmetall gun, and making it more unified with Leopard 2, but it was definitely abandoned.

010 PT-91A1 Twardy - a supposed modernized variant with front armour 60/65, improved gun PO-1+, stabilizer 4 and improved FC 45, available from 110.
There are no such tanks in 112, and there's no official designation PT-91A1, so the modernized tanks shouldn't be named this way.

It can be made one of proposed modernized variants - but maybe rather this unit, high in OOB, should be removed, and units 342, 408, 409 should be converted instead.

018 PT-91 Twardy - basic variant. It should be available until 120 (now: 12/96). Notes on armour and gun in introduction part. AAMG should be #17 NSVT, stabilizer 3.

342 PT-91A1 Twardy - a supposed modernized variant with front armour 60/65, improved gun PO-2, stabilizer 4, FC 45, available from 110. To be changed to something else.

343 PT-94 Goryl - fictitious tank, existing only in sketches from early 90s.
If any new tank will be developed (and bought) by the Army, it will rather be light FSV with 120mm gun...

408 PT-91A1 Twardy - a supposed modernized variant with front armour 60/65, improved gun PO-1+, stabilizer 4, FC 40, available from 101. To be changed to something else.

409 PT-91 Twardy - a supposed modernized variant with front armour 55/59, improved gun PO-1, stabilizer 4, available 97-100. To be changed to something else.

442 PT-2001 Twardy - to be removed - as 009

Special vehicles
209 PT-91 KMT-6 (Minecl.veh) - basic variant, notes as #018. Ammo should be redistributed (now: 30 HE, 14 Heat)

222 PT-91A1 KMT-6 (Minecl.veh) - a supposed modernized variant with front armour 55/59, improved gun PO-1, stabilizer 4, available from 1/97 - to be changed according to tanks above. There's no official designation PT-91A1.

228 PT-91A1 KMT-6 (Minecl.veh) - a supposed modernized variant with front armour 60/65, improved gun PO-1+, stabilizer 4, available from 1/101 - to be changed according to tanks above

234 PT-91A1 KMT-6 (Minecl.veh) - a supposed modernized variant with front armour 60/65, improved gun PO-1+, FC 45, stabilizer 4, available from 1/110 - to be changed according to tanks above.

Regards
Michał Derela

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Be careful in regards to the Malaysian version those tanks were ordered to the customer specifications as was posted with numerous refs in a Patch Post. That's why it was entered in their OOB as it is. You have to be careful about "same" units when discussing export units or other variations. By example M-60 Series M-60 TTS, M-60 2000, M-60 SABRE and M-60T off the top of my head all different in weapons, armor protection, sensors and general capabilities to varying degrees.
MBT Thread Page #9 Posts #84 & #89 M.5 I believe there was some follow up on the PT-91 in the Patch Post as well but I leave that to you to check if you want.
And let's not even talk about the LEO or ABRAMS variations. The UK, FRANCE, ITALY and ISRAEL (And a couple of others.) did it right and kept their own for the most part thank God for that in game terms! Just trying to help as others have done for me here as well, Just read my first posts in the MRAP Thread.

Regards,
Pat

[Pibwl]

That's why I'm basing upon a Polish article claiming, that basic protection of Malaysian tanks remained the same, despite works carried by Bumar upon a composite armour. ERA was probably only improved in decreasing weight (and possibly increasing efficiency). Thanks to the customer specifications it received better FCS, gun and stabilizer, engine and transmission, ammo, and several other improvements. Of course, the information on armour may be challenged. Main point of interest in these thread are Polish PT-91s anyway.

Michal

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

I bought up the Malaysian issue partly because Poland is about to or is just starting to upgrade their T-72M1 and PT-91 tanks. The work will not be done however by BUMAR who did not get the bid but, WZM. The first 20 of 40 PT-91 and 10 of 20 T-72M1 upgraded units are to be operational by NOV. 2012. I have been following developments and have other refs ready. Was thinking the Malaysian model as in the game might meet the new standard after rechecking the values again for verification. What are your first impressions of that thought? I will further research this that's just me and it keeps the research and conclusions independent this will include trying to identify ERA types for determination of where it falls on old vs. new scale. This is a big deal for WZM as they are primarily known for their work with APCs. It should be noted from their website they have ties with RHEINMETALL this could be the key to the tank work as well considering again WZM primary manufacturing role to this point and the timeline involved. Some might need to use your translator program for ref #2.
http://www.armyrecognition.com/december_2011_army_military_defence_news_uk/polish_army_has_awarded_contract_to_wzm_to_moderni ze_its_t-72m1_and_pt-91_main_battle_tanks_1912116.html
http://www.wzm.pl/go.live.php/PL-H363/aktualnosci/aktualnosci/remont-czolgow-t72-m1.html

Currently not known what will be done, as much as it will and what can be done i.e. Malaysia's PT-91 PANDADUR.

Regards,
Pat

[Pibwl]

I haven't heard about upgrade plans yet - there's no such information even on Polish MoD page News section, and no talk on it on Polish forums. But, according to a quoted WZM page, 20 T-72 tanks aren't going to be modernized, just overhauled (remont konserwacyjny - "conserving overhaul") (BTW, WZM first of all was repair plant - only in recent years they got to production of vehicles).

Anyway, it doesn't change my conclusions much, that there are no upgraded tanks by now, and the earliest date will be 2013 - IF the tender is assigned. Life showed, that many announced plans of modernization or buying new equipment for the Polish Army were postponed or abandoned eventually... As for now, we doesn't know details of upgrade. I bet, that they won't touch armour anyway, and focus on FC-gun issue rather.

Regards
Michal

[Marcello]

Modernization of T-72M1 basic armor is likely to be difficult. The glacis can probably be upgraded without excessive problem, by undoing the welds and replacing the inner layers, but the turret front has the composites cast in according to the sources. Therefore you would have to machine away a significant chunk of the armor. More costly/troublesome than it is probably worth.
The T-72B/S is much more upgrade friendly.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Pibwl,
As noted this will bear further watching then. I'll put this off until the 2012/2013 campaign then and see what comes of it. In the mean time in the spirit of cooperation here's all I have on the topic. Note the first three use the words "modernization" and "upgrade" last two cover the ERA issue maybe not as bad as you think but the armor itself seems more the issue on the surface of it. That's why I'm still leaning towards the PT-91M standard if these get upgraded as indiciated. Also Marcello is correct it would take a complete RESET to improve the armor really for ethier of these tanks and it can be done look at the LEO major overhauls done to date by the RESET programs used.
http://www.armyrecognition.com/december_2011_army_military_defence_news_uk/polish_army_has_awarded_contract_to_wzm_to_moderni ze_its_t-72m1_and_pt-91_main_battle_tanks_1912116.html
http://www.dmilt.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2663:poland--wzm-awarded-42m-for-tank-upgrades&catid=1:europe&Itemid=57
http://www.army-technology.com/news/newspoland-to-upgrade-t-72m1-pt-91-mbts
http://www.army-technology.com/projects/twardymainbattletank/
http://www.military-today.com/tanks/pt91_twardy.htm

And who says I can't play nice with others!?!

I'll be :capt: this as it develops.

Regards,
Pat

[DRG]

After all the deletions requested what we end up with in the Polish OOB is two ( 2 ) PT-91's plus two duplicate mine clearer's with KMT-6 all with various minor corrections suggested including matching the M1 armour but NOT upgrading the M1 to A1 status. I went through this a year or so back and am not doing it again. The "inconsistency in the Russian OOB" was a simple typo that has now been rectified.

One uses the "old ammo" up to 1999 and the other uses a part load of Pronit sabot and a part load of the old sabot as AP. There will not be any hypothetical wartime model or assumed modernized model. It's getting VERY OLD putting in "future models" only to have them evaporate so when there is an announcement that any new modernization is actually in the works, let me know but after requesting all these deletions I'm not really very open to adding in replacement guesses.

These PT-91 change leaves much of the M1 upgrades in question but I assume they are next ???

Don

[Suhiir]

It's getting VERY OLD putting in "future models" only to have them evaporate so when there is an announcement that any new modernization is actually in the works, let me know but after requesting all these deletions I'm not really very open to adding in replacement guesses.

Don

:da:just whistles quietly to herself as she contemplates the EFV :smirk:

(the proposed Expeditionary Fighting Vehicle the USMC wanted to replace the LVTP-7/AAVP-7).

[DRG]

......and the other thing that REALLY PISSES ME OFF are people who use examples of future units from other OOB's to justify something they think should be in their pet OOB. I AM FED UP WITH THIS CRAP. We added things a few years ago becasue some thought it would be "kewl" to have things still on the drawing board in the game so that players could play the game 10 years in advance and have all these new wonderful toys to play with then as time goes by all these new toys are sitting on the scrap heap and we have to pull them out but one left in some OOB or another that hasn't been scrapped suddenly becomes an excuse to add more crap into the OOB's ( that we will have to pull out later and we end up with ....."Yeah but the GERMAN OOB had this or the RUSSIAN OOB has that"

TOO FRIGGING BAD.

The EFV is GONE. It was GONE the last release. We added it as a "courtesy". It's still in the USMC OOB renationalized JUST IN CASE the project is revived but it DOES NOT SHOW UP IN THE GAME. The Su-47 Berkut is in the Russian OOB and the Altay is in the Turk OOB...... it will probably die as well but I'm leaving that alone but the days of adding upgrades in thinking that it's "enevitable" are over and as the years pass and they don't come about they will be pulled as well but I have MORE THAN ENOUGH to do ATM without making more work for myself.

Shall I pull the F-35's out until we know they are actually being used operationally ?

I just gutted the PT-91's from the Polish OOB becasue someone elses previous guesses about what "might" happen didn't come to pass so why would I put in new guesses ??

Now Suhiir..... I realize you were not asking for anything you were just pointing out what has happened so this was not directed at you per se but as a general venting of frustration on the way things like this go. NOR is it aimed directly at Michal. He just happened to be the last person to bring up " future upgrades ". This particular venting has been building for awhile



Don

[Pibwl]

NOR is it aimed directly at Michal. He just happened to be the last person to bring up " future upgrades ".

...I wasn't even going to take this (rightful) criticism at my direction - one of my main motives to correct the Polish OOB (and therefore, to appear here), was to remove units, that should have been in the Polish inventory long ago according to the OOB, but aren't, or sci-fi ones ;)

Thanks for clearing this. I only thought, that if we already have 4 or so future PT-91s, and someone made an effort to put them there, it would be reasonable to keep one or two, downgraded to something more probable (with basic armour, better stabilizer, gun and FC)...

As for T-72 - you assume right, they're coming (although not too extensive) :D

Cheers
Michal

[Pibwl]

Time for T-72

015 T-72 - AAMG should be #17 NSVT (now DShK). Speed 22 is too high (60 km/h, Soviet one has 20). Basic model was never a numerous tank in Poland - should have radio code 1.

Soviet basic T-72 has FC 15 (Polish 10) - I don't know if the difference is justified, since basic T-72 hadn't very advanced FC anyway and I haven't heard if it was simplified on machines exported to Warsaw pact. According to Russian monograph by M. Baryatynski, T-72s exported to Poland, Czechoslovakia, GDR "almost didn't differ" from Soviet ones. Those to Arab countries and India had different turret front construction.

016 T-72M - AAMG should be #17 NSVT. Produced and used from 1981 (now: 1/80) [Poligon 3 and 5/2010]. In fact available until today (until around 2015 - now 12/99), though from some 1995 it may be "obsolete tank". Speed 21 is too high (60 km/h, Soviet one has 20).

In fact, they had no SD (1) - only a possibility to make a smokescreen by injecting fuel into a hot exhaust (introduced in Russian tanks since T-55). Same for Russian early T-72.

017 T-72M1 - AAMG should be NSVT. SD should be around 4 (like Russian T-72A - it has 2x6 tubes) (now: 1). It should be available until 2020 (now: 12/96). Speed 25 is much too high (others: 20). Vision should be 20 (30), as in T-72A.

402 T-72M1 - It could be variant with some Pronit Ryś sabot rounds, mentioned in PT-91 post, available from some 1999 until 2020 (now: 1/97-12/100). Comments for AAMG, SD, speed as above. Correct pic is 29257 (now it's PT-91). It has too high ROF 7 (others: 6). Vision 30 might be OK (there were developed new passive sights in Poland...)

403 T-72M1 - further modernized variant with PO-1+ gun - to be removed, or made a hypotetical "wartime" model with better gun. It is unlikely, that T-72M1s will be modernized in Poland in other way, than converting to PT-91.

711-713 T-72M1Z - T-72M1 converted to PT-91 standard. Official (not used in practice) name of this tank is PT-91MA1, and it is commonly regarded just as "PT-91". No difference in game terms - IMO redundant.

Mineclearing tanks:

220 T-72M KMT-6 - used until some 2015 (2020). Ammo should be probably redistributed (30 HE, 14 Heat). AAMG should be #17 NSVT. Speed should be 20(21).

221 T-72M1 KMT-6 - it should be standard model with D81T 75 gun at best, available from 1986 (now: PO-1 gun, 1/97). Ammo distribution, AAMG, speed as above. SD should be around 4 (2). ROF should be 6(7).

Regards
Michal

[DRG]

In fact, they had no SD (1) - only a possibility to make a smokescreen by injecting fuel into a hot exhaust (introduced in Russian tanks since T-55). Same for Russian early T-72.



Yes, we know that. It's why unit 15 has no SD but I will remove it from the M as well


Don

[Warwick]

I have already removed the T-62 flame tanks from any OOB that used them.

If someone discovers they actually did exist I'll put them back in.

Don

Not sure if it is the right thing to reply here or start a new thread in the scenario forum but here goes :- Scenario 140 Follow-On Forces Attack will probably have to be modified as it uses the TO-62 units CB0,1,2. If it would be of help I could do a search for any other instances.

Regards, Warwick

[DRG]

Thanks but I always check every sceanrio before release as SOP so this will be dealt with when I'm finished work on the OOB's

Don

[Pibwl]

A little offtopic: if scenarios can be changed in newer releases, it would be good to replace in tutorial BRDM Shmel launchers (which aren't known to be ever used in action, and probably weren't used by Iraq) with common BRDM-2 Malyutka. The US wins anyway ;-)

Michal

[Pibwl]

...I was reluctant to report this, but Polish T-72M1 have FC 25 (also Slovak, East German, Iraqi and maybe others), while Soviet T-72A and Czech T-72M-1 have 20, what might be more appropriate in fact...

If we want to be overly precise with PT-91, there could be earliest model without TI, vision 30, available from 1995, radio code 1 (some 35 tanks) and basic model with vision 40, available from around 1996.

To end with medium tanks: Leopard 2

Polish Leopards have different turret armour, than Leopard 2A4 in German OOB.

020 Leopard 2A4 - SD should be definitely more (now: 1). German one has SD 2, but it has 16 tubes, so it seems too low.

022 Leopard 2A4+ - it should have more SD I think (apart from 1 SD and 2 VIRSS). According to a Polish military forum NFoW, Polish Leopards don't use HE ammo as for now (although it was developed in Poland).

023 Leopard 2A4P - Leo 2 with Lahat missile, available from 1/112. There are no pronounced plans to buy such missiles, despite advertising in the Polish press, and if something is going to be bought, new ammunition and modernized FC are more probable... To be removed as for now IMO.

396 Leopard 2+Dozer - there's no sign of using Leopard dozers in Poland (consulted with NFoW forum).

Michal

[Pibwl]

Going deeper:

024 BRDM-2 Malutka2,
033 BRDM-2 Malutka - this should be the same vehicle, firing 9M14P Malutka-P missiles (#155), named "BRDM-2 Malutka", or better "BRDM2 Malutka-P" (vehicle's designation was 9P133). Poland didn't use early 9P122 BRDM-2 with 9M14M Malutka missiles, but it uses Malutka-P from early 70s. It carries 14 missiles (now: 12) according to Polish MoD page and Russian sources (as unit 383 in Russian oob).

There are two units currently, 033 in 1/70-12/104 with wrong armament (ordinary Malutka #145) and vision=0 and 024 in 1/100-12/120 with correct armament and vision=20. One vehicle would be enough IMO, because as far as it is known, they weren't modernized in any way. Besides, in 2000 it was an obsolete system and wouldn't be modernized at that time. Vision=0 is correct (a soldier at one forum wrote, that it was good vehicles, but "blind as a mole" at night). Missiles could be fired and guided at night, but a target had to be noticeable in sights.

I have no precise start date ("early 70s"), but according to an article in Tekhnika i Vooruzhenie 10/2000 (http://vadimvswar.narod.ru/ALL_OUT/TiVOut9801/PturR/PturR010.htm ), despite it was commissioned in the USSR in 1969, but first 17 were produced only in 1971, and bigger production ran from mid-72. Therefore, a realistic date in Poland would be 1/73.

By the way: unit 384 BRDM-2 MalutkaP in Russian OOB might need change of date at least to 1971 (now: 1/69) and from 10 to 14 missiles (according to a quoted page, 14 was standard, but even 18 missiles could be carried in overload).

One of these Polish units could be replaced with a new unit BRDM-1 Malutka, or just BRDM Malutka (9P110 vehicle) - used in limited number (radio code 1). Details are lacking, but it must have been used from around 1968 until around 1980 (commissioned in the USSR in 1963). Data like unit 382 in Russian oob, but according to a quoted page, it also carried 14 missiles (6 + 8 reloads). A proper icon is 2331 (though it would be worth to erase lines suggesting open hatches in rear part - it had elevating hatch. Here are some photos http://cris9.narod.ru/rva_9p110.htm


025 SU-100 - apparently weren't used in Poland in any significant number. In 1949 there existed only two "pattern vehicles" [Poligon 3/2010]. In 1955, a total number of 51 SU-85 and SU-100 is given, what corresponds with 50 SU-85 and 2 SU-100 in 1949 [same source]. In 1960 there are mentioned only 43 SU-85. Despite Magnuski in his book (from 1984) wrote in general, that 2 were acquired in 1945 and "bigger numbers of SU-100" were bought in late 40s and 50s, but he didn't give any details, and it is doubtful in a view of numbers above, from newer sources. There is no information on further import of SU-100, only of heavy SP-guns and SU-76s. So, it should have radio code 3 at best (if not be removed).

027 JSU-152 - correct name is ISU-152. Extinct from inventory before 1960 [Poligon 3/2010] (say, 1959 - now: 12/65). It didn't typically use Heat ammo - at least half of them should be AP.

029 ASU-85 - according to J. Magnuski, they were used during manoeuvres in 1963 and withdrawn some time before 1983 (say, 12/80 - now: 1/66-12/86). Needs date change of formation 14 as last unit.

For information: gun's designation in ASU-85 was D-70 (it could be changed, since Poland doesn't use D-48 gun in other applications).

030 BRDM-1 Trzmiel - could be named just BRDM Trzmiel (2P27 vehicle). They were withdrawn by 1989 (now: 12/94).

According to Russian sources (among others Shirokorad's article http://vadimvswar.narod.ru/ALL_OUT/TiVOut9801/PturR/PturR003.htm ) they carried only 6 missiles (3 + 3 reloads - now: 8 - for all countries). Proper pic is 29057 - for BRDM-1 Shmel in all countries (current one 11031 is 2P32 Falanga). I've also found correct icon with 3 missiles: 2945 (though it would be worth to erase a rear line, suggesting open hatch - it had two-part hatch, opening to sides, unlike BRDM-1 with Falanga missiles, same for 2946 desert one).

031 BRDM-1 Falanga - should be removed - Poland never used BRDMs with Falanga missiles (unless somebody finds a source). According to Russian sources, there's no sign of their export at all.

032 BRDM-2 Fal.-M1 - should be removed (as 031)

034 BRDM-2 Konkurs (9P148 Konkurs) - used from 1984 only (now: 1/79) [Technika Wojska Polskiego - Polish Military Equipment - semi-official MoD 1998 book]. Rare piece of equipment - radio code should be 1. Correct icon is 2342 or 2324.

According to all Russian sources and Polish MoD page, it carries 15 missiles Konkurs (for all countries). Its weapons is overstated - it should be replaced in the file with standard 9M113 Konkurs (like weapon 166 from Russian oob), instead of 9M113M KonkursM with more penetration (not used in Poland) [same book].

035 MT-LB/82, 036 2S12 SPM - should be removed, with corresponding formations 16, 37, 238 - Poland never used SP-mortars. First such vehicles are planned on Rosomak APC chassis, but don't exist as for now.

037 Krab - as for now, only 2 prototypes and 1 serial vehicle are used. It should be given radio 3 in fact in that period (now: from 1/107). The program has been postponed for years, probably by 2013 there will be 6 more built at last.

038 2S7 Piwonia - more proper name is original 2S7 Pion (in all publications, among others in semi-official Technika Wojska Polskiego. "Piwonia" is a Polish translation of flower name, not used in practice). Used from 1986 until spring of 2006 [Poligon nr 06/2009] (now: 1/87-12/120). Very rare piece of equipment (8 pieces). Crew was 7 (probably for all countries). I don't know if it's good idea, but the crew had RPG-7 and AK rifles as a standard for self-defence.

039 2S1 Gozdzik - they have no AAMG.

Regards
Michal

[Pibwl]

AA systems (beginning):

040 Loara SPAAG - still there exist only 1 or 2 vehicles... very rare, though might be used in combat. Radio code should be 3 - it rather won't be numerous by 2020. It should have some SD (now:0 - it has 12 tubes). Speed is officially given as 60 km/h (now: 23). Date is OK.

041 BTR-40A - there's no evidence, that this variant was used in Poland (not a mention in Magnuski's book, nor a photo of a Polish vehicle). Personally, I'd remove it. At least its availability should be limited to 1955-1979 (BTR-40 were bought in 1955, for sure they weren't used since the 1980s) (now: 1/53-12/105).
Needs change of formations nos 4, 18 - earliest unit should be #042

Speaking of SPAA guns:
415 GAZ-AAMG - there's no sign of such vehicles, nor quadruple Maxims used in Poland. Personally, I'd remove it. Its weapon would be also useless.

It might be replaced with new unit M17 - variant of US M16 MGMC shipped to the USSR. Not a common vehicle, though - some 16 were left after the war. The question is, how long they were combat worthy, and how much ammo they had. I'd say, some 1949, maximum 1952 would be a good ending date. It is known, that they were used until late 50s, but in a pure APC role.
It would need separate formations, with a gap before unit 042.

By the way: #399 ZSU M-16 in the Russian OOB should be in fact renamed M-17, since original M-16s weren't shipped to the USSR.

042 ZSU-57-2 - date 1/59 is OK

043 ZSU-23-4 Szylka - still used, probably until 1/115 at least (now: 12/105) (start 1/68 is OK)

044 SA-8a Gecko - proper name is Osa-AK. It should have 6 missiles (now 4). Used from 1980 only [Polish Military Equipment] until 1/120 (now: 1/76-12/110) (according to other sources, used even from 1981 or 1984). Icon should be 1849 - it was a variant with 6 containers.

045 SA-9 Gaskin - should be named Strzala-1 (or Strela-1 - Soviet name) or 9K31 Strzala-1. Used until some 1997 at best - not present in Polish Military Equipment book from 1998 (now: 12/104).

046 SA-13 Gopher - should be named Strzala-10M (or Soviet name Strela-10M). Used from 1982 [Pol.Mil.Equip.] (1/80) (according to other sources, even from 1988). Should be very rare - only 4 vehicles used. According to Raport 6/2000, they were to be withdrawn in 2000 (now 12/104).

047 SA-2 Guideline - proper name is SA-75 Dwina (or Soviet SA-75 Dvina). Used from 9/1959 - http://infowsparcie.net/wria/o_autorze/wsp37dr_s75wolchow.html (first 2) - more realistic date 1/60 (now 1/57 - their production was only starting in 1957 in USSR).
Needs change of formation 20, as the earliest unit.

048 SA-3 Goa - proper name is S-125 Newa. Introduced in 1969 (1 for training) or 1970 (operational) - http://infowsparcie.net/wria/o_autorze/pzr_s125m.html (now 1/63). Initially twin launchers were used only (until late 1970s).

Quadruple launchers appeared with S-125M Newa, from mid-70s only (probably 1973 - same source) - there should be made two units. Initial twin launchers and quadruple from mid-70s concern all countries - S-125M was commissioned in the USSR in 1971.

049 SA-4 Ganef - proper name is 2K11 Krug. Date is OK.

050 SA-6 Gainful - proper name is 2K12 Kub. Used from 1974 only (now 1/73) - http://infowsparcie.net/wria/o_autorze/pzr_lata_59_85.html

...

060 SA-13 Strela-10 - to be removed - they were withdrawn before 2005 [Raport 6/2000] (now 1/105) - see unit #46

061 SA-2 Guideline - proper name of later variant is S-75M Wolchow. Used from 1964 [http://infowsparcie.net/wria/o_autorze/eksport_pzr.html and Polish Military Equipment] (now 1/84) until 2001 (now 1/97).
The only difference from the unit 047 is better radar 110, but Russian S-75 Volkhov, available from 1/62, has 105. In fact, it should have more improvements over SA-75, but I'm not going to twiddle with it, at least this year...

...

074, 076 SA-5 Gammon - proper name is S-200 Wega (or Russian Vega). Very rare - only two units near the seaside (maybe radio code 3). Delivered in late 86, operational from 1987 (http://infowsparcie.net/wria/o_autorze/pzr_lata_59_85.html - now 1/86)

Regards,
Michal

[Pibwl]

AFVs to trucks

051 BTR-40 (Gun APC) - should be used until some 1965 (now: 12/60) (especially, that BRDM-1 should be available from 1963 and it would make a gap)

052 BRDM-1 (Gun APC) - 12.7 mm MG wasn't used in Poland on BRDM-1 (according to Zaloga, only some Soviet BRDMs were armed this way). It's never seen on photos of Polish vehicles. The only armament should be SGMT (correctly named SGMB - for all countries).
Better name is just BRDM (there were names BRDM and BRDM-2), but BRDM-1 could be. Used from 1963 (now: 1/61) [Poligon 3/2010]

053 BRDM-2 (Gun APC) - used from 1966 until now - 1/115 at least (now: 1/67-12/105) [Poligon 3/2010].
Soviet BRDM-2s in that period (#698, 699) have vision 15 (this one 20). In fact, it has no night gun sights at all [confirmed in Raport 9/2010].

054 OT-62 - proper name in Polish service is TOPAS. Speed in fact is 60 km/h (now 18), it could carry 16 men (112).
In fact, it carried no fixed weapons, only troop section's PK LMG, but this is relatively minor issue (now: SGMT AAMG).

They were used only by the 7th Naval Landing Division, not as ordinary APC, so maybe it should be class Heavy Amphib, like units #417 and #703. Used from 1963 (now 1/64) [Poligon 5/2010] until some 1991 (now 12/96 - definitely not that long). Better pic is 29091 (11057 is probably BTR-50, mirrored in addition)

All formations using APC (track) should start with BWP-1 (BMP-1) only (1/73), and earlier ones should be deleted. There were no tracked APC in Poland before BWP, apart from landing units, mentioned above. There could be created separate naval infantry formations in 1963-1991, with Heavy amphibs.

055 SKOT-2A - used as APC only until some 1991 (now: 12/104 - definitely not that long).

056 BTR-152- in bigger number used only from 1955 (now: 1/52) (there were only 6 in 12/54) [Poligon 3/2010]. Weapon used was actually #53 SGMT AAMG.

All formations using APC (wheel) should be available in 1955-1991 only.

057 BTR-50PK - Poland never used BTR-50s - to be removed.

058 OT-65 FUG (Gun APC) - proper name in Poland was just FUG or FUG D422 (OT-65 was Czechoslovak designation). Used from 1963 until some 1985 only (now: 1/66-12/95) [Poligon 3/2010]. It carried no fixed armament - only could carry crew's LMG. A second one should be added as a Scout vehicle? (like BRDMs)

059 BTR-152K - "hardtop" variant, used in Poland in small number, from late 50s, say 1959 (now 1/55 - it was produced in the USSR from 1957 only). Radio code should be 1. Armament should be SGMT or PKT AAMG.

...

062 BTR-50P - Poland never used BTR-50s. To be removed.

063 MT-LB (prime mover) - Poland definitely never used MT-LB as a prime mover - only in several special variants. To be removed IMO or changed to something else.

Apart from numerous prototypes, only 5 types of vehicles on MT-LB base were used in Poland in any significant numbers:
- WPT Mors (ARRV, which doesn't seem relevant to the game),
- TRI Hors (engineers' recce vehicle, which I'll describe later)
- TI Durian (engineers' carrier, which I'll describe later)
- basic vehicle for drivers' training
- different command and control vehicles

064 BWP-1 - should carry only 4 missiles.

065 BWP-1 - it should have the same 9M14 missiles as above, not semi-automatic 9M14P. There weren't modified in any way, especially in 1999 (the missiles would be obsolete anyway at that time). With correct missiles, the only difference from the unit above is radio and camouflage (introduced around 1990).

066 Heavy Truck - much better picture is 29169 (KrAZ truck) (Poland didn't use 2-axle heavy truck like 11067)

067 ZIS - better - more universal name seems ZiS/ZiL 6x6 or ZiS/ZiL truck (covering models 151, 157, 133). ZiS 151 production started only in 1948 (1/46). If it's ZiL, ending date could be late 80s. (12/59)

Regards
Michal

[DRG]

I hope there's a "Part 2" to that last post.......


Don

[Pibwl]

Would you like all APCs etc at once, or units in order?

Michal

[DRG]

Well, if I'm going to make changes it helps to have one chunk at a time that ties up loose ends. If the info comes over two or three days that's fine but as it stands now the end dates for wheeled APC's is undetermined .... you say 1991 but I have units that go to 2004 and that means either starting 1/92 or 1/2005 the motorized engineers are walking to work so if somethings a work in progress tell me it's a WIP and I'll wait for part 2

Don

[Pibwl]

So, here we continue with APC (Wheel)

438 BTR-152K - it's meant to be older APC with radio code 3 in a period after introduction of SKOT (from 1/65). However, hardtop 152K apparently wasn't numerous variant in Poland (I've seen only one photo, of drivers' training vehicle) and basic open-top BTR-152 would be still more probable. Anyway, they were used in that role not later, than until end of 70s (now 12/90).

565 SKOT-2 - open turret-like mounting suggests, that it had AAMG, not TMG (the following unit with similar turret type has AAMG). According to part of sources, it was #53 SGMB AAMG, not PKT.
It was not numerous transitional version, used as APC probably only until end of 60s, possibly even converted to DShK variants (below) by 1966 (now: until 12/90 - definitely not that long)

566 SKOT-2 - books claim, that DShK mounting was introduced after 7.62mm version (above) - 1/65 would be realistic (now 1/64). It was a temporary measure and not numerous model and was replaced by a turreted version - I'd say, until mid-70s (now 12/90).

567 SKOT-2A - turreted version was produced and used only from 1967 [Poligon 3/2010 and a Czech book on Skot] (now: 1/64). It could carry only 10 soldiers (like unit #55) (now 115)

055 SKOT-2A represents later entry with radio 91. It should rather be 90 - in spite of introduction of SKOT-2AP in 1972, SKOT-2A remained most numerous version. In fact, there's no reason for two separate units #55 and 567, if not a better radio chance in 55...

568 SKOT-2AP - SKOT as APC was used only until some 1991 (now 12/104) - wheeled APC were withdrawn during reductions of army in 1990-1991 years, following Cold War's end.

572 KTO Rys - despite numerous prototypes, it was bought by the Polish Army only in medevac variant. Usage of Rys as APC in the future is highly improbable. (Rys aka Lynx is a Polish proposal of deep modernization of SKOT, with 70% new parts)

574 SKOT-2A AT-3 - variant with Malutka missiles, available in the game in 72-73. It was under development in early 1970s. J.Kajetanowicz wrote, that "it wasn't adopted on larger scale and only a small number were given to the army". Photos of such vehicles are in fact known only from one parade. According however to a Polish article on Skots in Model 4/2000 magazine, the missiles on racks weren't operational, turrets had no internal equipment for firing missiles, and "according to witnesses, electric wires were just hanging inside turrets", and they were dismounted afterwards. To be removed IMO.


For a longer time than APC there were used (or still are) unarmed command radio variants of SKOT, but I think it's no use to add one?

I suggest to create separate variants of SKOT and BTR-152 for engineers and AT platoons, for example class 251 APC.
- BTR-152 could be used in 1955-1975
- SKOT could be used in 1968- some 1997 (1968 was a date of adoption of SKOT-Art for ATGM and artillery, the engineer version appeared several years after). In fact it was unarmed - possibly only had a provision for PK LMG mounting, if the troops carried one...

There should be created engineer's carrier TI Durian in the same class, based upon MT-LB, armed with NSVT AAMG, SD (8 tubes), used from around 1997 until 2020 (move class: track), speed 60 km/h, carry 109. It should swim a bit faster, than MT-LB thanks to hydrojets. It could replace one of MT-LBs.

I wonder, if a plain truck shouldn't be put in the same class, which is probably most numerous engineers' vehicle at present...


Purge of Class APC (track):

407 MT-LB-23M Krak - single prototype from early 1990s, abandoned.
(I've seen it on that MSPO defence industry salon, where this photo was taken...)

416 OT-62 AP - variant with single 14.5mm KPV TMG was definitely not used by Poland (I don't know, if it existed at all)

422 MT-LB-WAT - this is probably supposed to be a variant with SKOT-2AP turret from late 80s, existing in one prototype. Never used.

440 BWP-2 (BMP-2) - used from only 1/89 (now: 1/80) [Poligon 3/2010]. It carries only 4 missiles (like in Russian OOB). We have identical unit 676 available from 1/89 - one of these could be removed.

441 PT-8 - I've never heard about such vehicle. There's no mention on it in available sources, quoted before. Internet doesn't help either. The photo shows some roofless modification of T-34. If it existed, it sure wasn't used in the Polish army in 1954-1965 in any noticeable number.

504 BWP-2000 - didn't go beyond prototype stage, abandoned long ago.

670 M113GA1 - a batch of M113GA1 were acquired from Germany with Leopard tank regiment, used only as medevac and support vehicles. Not used as APC.

676 BWP-2 - duplicate of 440. (with correct first date though)

677 BWP-1M Puma - despite many talks and demonstrators during last 20 years, BWP-1s didn't undergo any serious modernization, and it's becoming doubtful. Polish Puma program itself was cancelled in 2009 http://www.altair.com.pl/start-3598

678 BWP-1M Puma+,
679 Puma RCWS-30 - as above.

Some BWP-1s are being fitted with passive sights and better radios during refits in 2000s, so maybe one of them should be replaced with plain BWP-1 with vision 30, radio 90, available from, say, 2000.

BTW: speed of 064 and 065 BWP-1 should be only 22 (now 24), like in Russian OOB.

PS: sorry for adding much work with formations, but there were really no tracked APC in Poland before BWP-1 (not counting special purpose Topas for landing units only).

Regards,
Michal

[Pibwl]

Speaking of class 251 APC - the only unit:

457 Rys M-98 - as I've indicated above, Ryś mortar carrier remained a prototype and it seems, that Ryś family (sadly) has no future. 98mm mortars are carried by Humvees or trucks.

Michal

[Pibwl]

I suggest to create separate variants of SKOT and BTR-152 for engineers and AT platoons, for example class 251 APC.
- BTR-152 could be used in 1955-1975
- SKOT could be used in 1968- some 1997 (1968 was a date of adoption of SKOT-Art for ATGM and artillery, the engineer version appeared several years after). In fact it was unarmed - possibly only had a provision for PK LMG mounting, if the troops carried one...

There should be created engineer's carrier TI Durian in the same class, based upon MT-LB, armed with NSVT AAMG, SD (8 tubes), used from around 1997 until 2020 (move class: track), speed 60 km/h, carry 109. It should swim a bit faster, than MT-LB thanks to hydrojets. It could replace one of MT-LBs.


I'm wondering, what will be better:
1 - to create new units BTR-152, SKOT (unarmed), TOPAS and TI Durian under one common class to carry RCL guns, mortars, ATGM, engineers, Inf. SAM - which will need only one common formation for each of these weapons/teams, or:

2 - to use ordinary APCs to carry these things. There won't be needed duplicate units of different class, but there will be needed separate formations for APC (wheel), Heavy Amphib and whatever class TI Durian will have.
A drawback of such variant is, that in fact SKOTs used for carrying support weapons or engineers were unarmed, unlike APCs.

Now we have formations concerned: 214 (APC(W) with RCL), 215 (APC(W) with guns), 226, 228, 251 (APC(W) with ATGM), 227, 229 (APC(T) with ATGM), 241 (APC(T) with Inf.SAM), 250 (APC(W) with RCL and ATGM). Maybe I skipped something.

Usage:

SKOT was used to carry RCL guns, ATGM, mortars, engineers, most probably also Strela teams. In these roles it would be used until no later, than 1991, maybe even no later, than 1990 - apart from engineer carriers (until some 1996/97).
Earlier these roles were fulfilled by BTR-152, plus it could tow guns.

TOPAS could carry 2 mortars 82mm. I assume, that it carried also Strela, ATGMS and engineers in landing units (what other vehicle could do it in landing units?) - until no later, than 1995.

TI Durian can carry engineers - from some 1997

BWP-1 is probably used to carry Strela, I don't know how about ATGM (a former soldier suggested to me, that portable ATGMs were used by mountain or airborne troops rather, since each BWP-1 was fitted with own ATGM launcher).

As for now, I leave Rosomak apart - which could be included as well, but only from 2005 (basic unarmed version - not IFV - carries ATGM, probably also Inf.SAM).
BTW, I wonder if MRV classes for Rosomaks are correct - why not just APC(W)? (like US Strykers for example)


By the way, some date corrections of what I wrote above:

054 OT-62 (TOPAS) - according to vague sources, they were kept as long, as 1994-95, when former landing units were finally dissolved (now: 12/96). I wrote some 1991, but 1995 seems a better date as for now.
There are problems with ending dates of most units, since they are usually not given clearly in publications, so it's often based upon best knowledge, but liable to be changed, when better data are found.

058 OT-65 FUG - I've found other, more reliable starting year: 1965 (now 1/66, I wrote 1963 - a previously used source mentioned FUG together with BRDM-1 from 1963, while this year the production was only starting in Hungary).

Michal

[DRG]

054 OT-62 (TOPAS) - according to vague sources, they were kept as long, as 1994-95, when former landing units were finally dissolved (now: 12/96). I wrote some 1991, but 1995 seems a better date as for now.
There are problems with ending dates of most units, since they are usually not given clearly in publications, so it's often based upon best knowledge, but liable to be changed, when better data are found.



Which proves the point about the utter futility of doing this over and over and over as new "vague sources" are found. The two years from now somebody else comes along and their new "source" says it should be 1996 again.

There's a fine line between accuracy and obsessiveness. I want to encourage error reporting but I want to DISCOURAGE obsessing over details like this.

If you have info that shows we have the date running to 2020 and it went OOS 2005 then I want to know about it but don't concern yourself too much with a year here or that becasue AS YOU HAVE ALREADY PROVED.....sources differ and with much of this stuff hard info is hard to find and a lot of these "experts" are just guessing too.

Don

[Pibwl]

I understand your point. I agree, that 1995 or 1996 for a withdrawal date isn't much difference indeed, but in this case it is sure, that all units, that used Topas were disbanded in 1995 or before.
By "vague sources" I meant in this case article in Polish Wikipedia with a statement, that the 7th Coastal Defence Brigade was disbanded in 1995 due to reaching exploitation limits of Topas and PT-76. It would suggest, that they were used until the brigade's end; unfortunately, with no reference to support it. According to other articles, in 1994 there were disbanded most (if not all) brigade's battalions.

Michal

[Pibwl]

022 Leopard 2A4+ - it should have more SD I think (apart from 1 SD and 2 VIRSS). According to a Polish military forum NFoW, Polish Leopards don't use HE ammo as for now (although it was developed in Poland).

023 Leopard 2A4P - Leo 2 with Lahat missile (...) To be removed as for now IMO.


I've found, that in 2009 Polish MoD ordered a batch of HE ammunition, what would need also slight FCS modification. According to a Polish military magazine http://polska-zbrojna.pl/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=13972:nowa-amunicja-dla-leoparda&catid=50:wojska-ldowe&Itemid=165 there was a meeting in November 2011 between tankers and ammunition designers and producers, to prepare putting the ammo into service. Chief of training of the 10th Brigade claimed, that "probably soon" HE ammunition will be commissioned.

So, I suggest to keep #022 with VIRSS but without HE (from 1/106, as it is now, though I don't know, when actually Polish Leos received VIRSS) and #023 from some 6/112 with HE but without Lahat.

Michal

[Pibwl]

Going farther, Inf-RR, Inf-AT, Inf-ATGM and misc. guns:

068 B10 Recoilless (inf-RR) - according to sources, used in Poland from mid-1950s (1/55 is quite likely) until 1980s at best (now: 1/50-12/99. 1/50 is impossible, since it was accepted by the Soviets in 1954). It was gradually replaced with SPG-9 and I'd say, that latest date of B-10 in units should be no later, than 12/79 - definitely not after 1989. Secondary weapons should be SMG (eg. 006) instead of rifle. Better picture IMO is 29396.

In 1994 it was reported as withdrawn - although they are apparently still kept in warehouses, and 4 were sold in 2009 to Afghanistan!

373 SPG-82 RR - there's no sign that such weapon was ever used in Poland.

First date of formations 79 and 214 should be changed according to unit #68 (1/55 also corresponds with an introduction of BTR-152).


069 B11 Recoilless - better pic is 29442 or 29397.

070 SPG9 Recoilless - used from 1968 (now 1/71) (http://www.militarium.net/viewart.php?aid=137 , other written sources confirm "late 60s"). Still in limited service, possibly until 120 (now 12/94).
Basic version should have vision 0 - there was other version SPG-9N with night sights (it could be created as a new unit). Better secondary weapon is newer 029 rifle. According to Polish sources, standard crew is 4 men (3).

071 RPG-7 - standard ammo load is 5, like in Russian OOB (8) (or is it for more fun?).

In fact, early RPG-7 used PG-7V round with 260mm penetration, then RPG-7V introduced PG-7VM round with 300-330mm penetration in 1969 (in Poland since 1972). A round with 500mm penetration is PG-7VL (apparently still fired from RPG-7V), in Russia since 1977. There is however no sign, that Poland used anything more advanced, than PG-7VM with 330mm penetration, produced in Poland and still being a main infantry AT weapon (dates from article in Polish http://www.militarium.net/viewart.php?aid=440 ).

Speaking of RPG-7:
169, 212 RPG-7V Team - there's no sign of usage of PG-7VL rounds with 500 penetration. Unit 169 differs from 212 only in having too much ammo.

If we change unit 71 and its weapon to standard early RPG-7 with penetration 260mm, then unit 169 and its weapon could be changed to standard RPG-7V with 330mm penetration, available from 1972 until 120.
The other may be armed with weapon 152 RPG-7MT - Polish tandem Heat round, ready for production in 2007, but with unclear status. Weapon's class however should be changed to multi-charge Heat.

073 Fagot ATGM - used only from 1979 (1/76) [nTW 3/2005], until some 115-120 (1/90) - next unit has a different rifle, but AKMS rifles rather won't be wiped out soon.
For 4 missiles and launcher there was required 3-men crew (now 2 men) (according to Soviet sources, some 26 kg launcher and 13 kg each missile).

075 Spike ATGM - crew is 3 (2) [Polish MoD page http://www.wp.mil.pl/pl/strona/205/LG_59_150/ ] (it sure is needed to carry launcher and 4 missiles)

215 Factoria ATGM - development of Fagot, definitely not used in Poland.

287 Fagot ATGM - 3-men crew (see unit 73).

288 Fagot ATGM - 3-men crew (as above). Most probably will be used until 120 (115).

488 Malutka-2 ATGM - Malutka-2 was a Russian recent export proposal with twin Heat, definitely not bought by Poland. This unit should be in fact ordinary Malutka ATGM. Its weapon should be just normal #145 Malutka - #155 Malutka-P is a semi-automatic version for SP-launchers (it can be used from ordinary launchers, but in manual mode, without increased accuracy). It should be available from 105 (now 1/99) (after unit #72) until not later, than 115 (now 120). Radio should be 91 or even 93 - totally obsolete now.

561 Factoria ATGM - development of Fagot, definitely not used in Poland.

Regards
Michal

[DRG]

Going farther, Inf-RR, Inf-AT, Inf-ATGM and misc. guns:

068 B10 Recoilless (inf-RR) - according to sources, used in Poland from mid-1950s (1/55 is quite likely) until 1980s at best (now: 1/50-12/99. 1/50 is impossible, since it was accepted by the Soviets in 1954). It was gradually replaced with SPG-9 and I'd say, that latest date of B-10 in units should be no later, than 12/79 - definitely not after 1989. Secondary weapons should be SMG (eg. 006) instead of rifle. Better picture IMO is 29396.

In 1994 it was reported as withdrawn - although they are apparently still kept in warehouses, and 4 were sold in 2009 to Afghanistan!




OK Michal, let's review what you wrote

The B10 Recoilless was:

a/ Used."until 1980s at best "

b/ "should be no later, than 12/79 "

c/ "definitely not after 1989"

d/ "In 1994 it was reported as withdrawn - although they are apparently still kept in warehouses"


Would you like another chance to make that MORE confusing and inconsistent ? :)

To recap what you have told me--- It should be taken OOS in 1979 but it was used until the 80's but no later than 1989 but it was listed as officially withdrawn in 1994 but they are being kept in warehouses and some have been sold.

FYI...they now exist in the OOB until 1989 or until you can come up with information that doesn't contradict itself 5 times

<snip>




In fact, early RPG-7 used PG-7V round with 260mm penetration, then RPG-7V introduced PG-7VM round with 300-330mm penetration in 1969 (in Poland since 1972). ........



Yes we know about the early round. If you look at the OOB's the early RPG-7 round does not exist anywhere because that conserved unit and weapons slots in the Russian OOB that were and are in very short supply and , like the Panzerfausts in SPWW2 that have been blended into one so the stock "RPG-7" is represented as the 330mm penetration version in all OOB's. It only served for a short time before the improved version and this saved a lot of unit slots in a lot of OOB's and we didn't think the added penetration earlier made a whole lot of difference in the game so it's an amalgamation


Don

[Pibwl]

Guns


078 57mm AT-Gun (1965-96) - could be removed in this period at all IMO - from 1955 being replaced with 85 mm gun. Possibly stored in depots after 1965, but sure not longer, than end of 1970s due to limited capabilities. Anyway, better pic is 29439 (BTW, mine).

079 ZUR-23-2S JOD (Flak) - introduced in 1988 according to Polish Military Equipment book and nTW 9/2010 (now 1/95). Name is written "Jod" - this isn't abbreviation. Correct picture is 29273.

It should have somewhat lower FC, than #95 ZUR-23-KG (20), though higher, than basic ZU-23-2 (5) - 15 seems appropriate (it has Polish GP-1 gyroscope sight)

080 37mm AA-Gun - actually used until 2000 for airfield protection (now: 12/59) [Raport 6/2000]. It was used normally at least until mid-60s (until ZU-23 introduction).

Maybe there should be created a second unit, from some 1966-68, with 029 rifle and radio 91 or 93.

081 57mm AT-Gun (1946-64) - crew's armament should rather be 006 SMGs, than bolt rifles. Better picture is 29439.

082 85mm AT-Gun - according to Polish Military Equipment book, used from 1954 (now 1/55). It's hard to say, what gun a picture shows - better is 29428 or 29429. Crew's armament should rather be 006 SMGs, than AK rifles (especially in initial years).

083 M1944 100mm ATG (1968-89) - Last date seems OK, or could be several years earlier (in the 1960s they were withdrawn for training and mobilisation reserve). Correct pic is 29427 (or poor, but commonly used for this gun 11084) - now it's 85mm D-44.

084 M1944 100mm ATG - used from 1947 (1/55) [Poligon 3/2010]. Correct pic is 29427 (as above). Crew's armament should rather be 006 SMGs, than bolt rifles.

086 ZPU-2 AAMG - in Poland named PKMZ-2, though it's not necessary. Used until 2008 at least (12/96) [Raport 1/2005]. 006 SMG as crew's weapon will be closer to truth, than rifles (from mid-50s it was AK rifle). Alternative (maybe nicer) pic 29204 (probably even in Polish service photo).

087 ZPU-4 AAMG - used until end of 1980s at best (now: 12/96)

088 ZU-23 AA-Gun - precise name is ZU-23-2. Used from 1966 (1/65) [Polish Military Equipment] until 120 (12/109) - they won't be all replaced with newer variants. It's a detail, but crew is 5 (4) [same source]. Better crew's weapon is newer 029 rifle.

By the way: I strongly suggest to rename weapon 008 AKM Rifle to AK Rifle (basic model AK-47, adopted in 1952 - designation "47" was never used in Poland), and 029 AKMS Rifle to AKM Rifle (adopted in 1965).
AKM was a modernized AK-47, while AKMS was AKM with a folding stock (adopted in early 70s). Now we have two separate rifles of the same generation (AKM and AKMS), and no coverage of earlier weapon (AKM name in the 50s is anachronism). AK and AKM would cover also folding stock versions IMO (AKS and AKMS), without need of distinction.

089 57mm AA-Gun - used from 1955 only (1/50) [nTW 8/98]. Crew's weapon should be 008 AK(M) or 006 SMG rather.

090 76mm Field Gun - used from 1/46 (1/50) - WW2 leftovers. Maybe this weapon should have some AP ammo as well (pen=10, like weapon 235 76.2mm L41 F-34)?
Crew's weapon should be 006 SMG rather than bolt rifle.

091, 092 122mm Field Gun - could use some Heat ammo. First unit's crew should be armed with 006 SMGs rather than rifles. A border date between these units should be some 1962-1965, not 1954 - arming howitzers' crews with AK rifles wasn't a priority. Better pictures are 29403 or 29404.

There could be created third unit, from 1985, with 29285 picture (wz.38/85 modification, differing mostly in wheels) and 029 rifles.


095 ZUR-23-KG - precise name is ZUR-23-2KG, it could be named "ZUR23-2KG Jodek". Year 2002 is OK. Crew should have #28 wz.96 Beryl (M1930 rifles are probably just a mistake). At that time, new APDS ammo was developed in Poland, with increased penetration (may be as Sabot)

There should be created new unit with the same name, available from some 2006, with better FC, laser RF and night vision (with CP-1 computer sight/FCS; ordinary ZUR-23-2KG had CKE-2 colimator sight) [nTW 3/2006]

Michal

[DRG]

Guns


078 57mm AT-Gun (1965-96) - could be removed in this period at all IMO - from 1955 being replaced with 85 mm gun. Possibly stored in depots after 1965, but sure not longer, than end of 1970s due to limited capabilities. Anyway, better pic is 29439 (BTW, mine).

079 ZUR-23-2S JOD (Flak) - introduced in 1988 according to Polish Military Equipment book and nTW 9/2010 (now 1/95). Name is written "Jod" - this isn't abbreviation. Correct picture is 29273.


I think this would be a good time to clear a couple of issues up.

I have highlighted them above.

First nTW 9/2010

I've seen this in a number of posts it does not seem to tie into anything else in your posts so I have been ignoring it as I have NO IDEA what it's stands for

One of these perhaps ???

NTW Navy Theater Wide (BMDO)
NTW Not to Worry
NTW National Tourism Week
NTW Norwegian Travel Workshop
NTW National Training Wage
NTW Napoleonic Total War (game)
NTW No Time Wasters
NTW Not of This World (usually seen as NOTW)
NTW National Public Safety Telecommunicators Week
NTW Network The World
NTW Non Territorial Working
NTW Non-Traditional Warfare
NTW Not This Way
NTW Network Transparent Widget(s)
NTW New Technology (NT) Workstation (Microsoft)
NTW Northumberland, Tyne and Wear (UK)



So what does "nTW" really mean ?


As for the photos. You can continue to suggest photos BUT be aware that over 10% of the photos in winSPMBT have already been replaced with new ones and the percent could go as high as 15% or 20% when the patch is finally released depending on when I finally "hit the wall" and stop.

I can now very easily find what photos are not being used and when I come across one,and I can see no possible use for it, I use that number for something new which is what has already happened to both of those photos you referred to. I have used some of your other suggested photo changes but now I'm starting to find some of the new ones that I have replaced with something different.

Don

[Pibwl]

"nTW..." and other info in square brackets are sources - in this case, Polish magazine "Nowa Technika Wojskowa" (New Military Technology) - I think I've quoted the title before; anyway, sorry for being incomprehensible.

As for pictures - I think I'll continue, for following reasons. When I'm writing "correct picture", like in a case of ZUR-23-2S JOD, it means, that a present picture is wrong, but I've found a correct one. In this case, a present picture is ordinary ZU-23-2, while the correct one shows the Polish gun with missiles. So you can reconsider its removal, or change it to other number, or replace with a better one - as you want.

As for "better pictures" - well, I'm working on present files, so I hope this isn't too much work for you to check if the new one is still "better". There is always a chance, that a specific picture that I spot isn't going to be improved, and then it could be replaced with something better, if it's still present in game files.

There are tons of unused (and mostly redundant) Polish pictures in the game (a couple I recognize as mine), but I could give you a list of several unused pictures, that actually should be utilized in the game (like Ya-12 tractor 29395, Mazur tractor 29390 or 29171 and several others).

Michal

[DRG]

It's not "too much work" to check if the new ones are "better" because the new ones ARE better and easy to recognize. Ridding the game of the poor quality LBM's has been my intent for years, I've just always been busy with other things. This year I started work on this more as a break from the repetitious " Unit B in Nation Y is size 3 and the rest are size 2" "error" reports I've been wading through for two months.

Go ahead and continue to make photo change suggestions if you like but even the ones you mentioned at the end ("like Ya-12 tractor 29395) has already been replaced by a better quality photo and "Mazur tractor 29390" has already been used and added to the game as "D-530 Tractor"

I clear photos that are unused for use later as something more useful if the quality is poor. There are lots that were provided from outside that were not resized correctly and those get cleared as soon as I find them. Anything that is of decent quality that is a photo and not a reproduction of artwork I have been saving for possible use later. There's just too many photos ( and not enough time ) to check every one so this will be a WIP for awhile but for the most part the worst offenders will be gone this next release and most of the ones I cannot readily identify that are not currently used in the game and are poor quality have been ( and will be ) used for something else. I can see no point in adding more new photo numbers to the game when I have a scrap yard of unused junk sitting in the files.


Don

[Pibwl]

Somehow I haven't noticed that post:


OK Michal, let's review what you wrote

The B10 Recoilless was:

a/ Used."until 1980s at best "

b/ "should be no later, than 12/79 "

c/ "definitely not after 1989"

d/ "In 1994 it was reported as withdrawn - although they are apparently still kept in warehouses"


Again, sorry for too much mess. It was definitely not used after 1989. 1994 is not a year of withdrawal, but a year of an article on B-10, in which it is reported as gone (there is no specified ending date, but it says, that they started to be replaced from late 60s and it seems from a context, that it must have been gone for at least several years). I believe, that 12/79 is closer to true ending date, but I have no firm info :(
Other information were just as a point of interest - it surprised me as well, that they are stored (although they could theoretically be put out of warehouses in case of, say, major war and a need of creating guerilla units ;)



FYI...they now exist in the OOB until 1989 or until you can come up with information that doesn't contradict itself 5 times


1989 is a safe date - although I'm pretty sure it was gone before.



Yes we know about the early round. If you look at the OOB's the early RPG-7 round does not exist anywhere because that conserved unit and weapons slots in the Russian OOB that were and are in very short supply and , like the Panzerfausts in SPWW2 that have been blended into one so the stock "RPG-7" is represented as the 330mm penetration version in all OOB's. It only served for a short time before the improved version and this saved a lot of unit slots in a lot of OOB's and we didn't think the added penetration earlier made a whole lot of difference in the game so it's an amalgamation


I thought so. But since Poland didn't use newer Soviet rounds, it could have 260mm and 330mm rounds separated (although it's a handicap comparing to other RPG-7 users ;)

As for the new Polish round PG-7MT (correctly PG-7MT1), about which I wrote that its status is unclear - it is possible, that some limited number was bought and it should be added from some 2008. Weapon #152 RPG-7MT needs modification - it has tandem Heat round, with penetration stated as ERA+500, range 300m [in nTW 5/2006 magazine].

Michal

[DRG]

I'll split the difference and make it end 1984.

RPG-7MT already changed to WC22

Don

[Pibwl]

095 ZUR-23-KG - precise name is ZUR-23-2KG, it could be named "ZUR23-2KG Jodek". Year 2002 is OK. Crew should have #28 wz.96 Beryl (M1930 rifles are probably just a mistake). At that time, new APDS ammo was developed in Poland, with increased penetration (may be as Sabot)

There should be created new unit with the same name, available from some 2006, with better FC, laser RF and night vision (with CP-1 computer sight/FCS; ordinary ZUR-23-2KG had CKE-2 colimator sight) [nTW 3/2006]


The new APDS ammunition offers higher penetration (with no specific data given) and bigger efficient range of 3000m vs 2000m [source: nTW 11/2007]. If you decide to add it, it could be matched with the modified ZUR-23-2KG with CP-1 sight from 2007 (it has no specific name, but it could be named ZUR-23-2KG CP-1) (a serial production of the ammo started probably in 2008, but trial batches were made before).

Going farther:
093 SGM MMG [2] - crew would rather have SMG (eg. 006), than bolt rifles.

094 PKMS MMG [2] - correct pic is 45377 or 29441 (now it's SGM)

096 12.7mm WKM HMG - it should be named just NSW HMG (Polish version of NSV). Better pic is common 11096.

It's weapon should be changed - now it is #037 12.7mm WKM HMG, but "wkm" is just a Polish generic abbreviation for "big calibre MG". Probably it's supposed to be WKM-B - recent development of NSW for 0.5 Browning ammo, used from some 2001 (might be named WKMB due to limit). Earlier HMGs should be just NSW (or NSV).
There is a possible free slot to convert to NSV HMG - #176 12.7mm NSV MG - helicopter MG, which in fact shouldn't be used by Polish helicopters (I'll write about it later).

097 40mm GA AGL - automatic GL are used in Poland only from late 2007 (in service around 11/2007) (now: 1/103) and they are US Mk.19, not Polish GA (still in development, with unclear future). Correct picture is 12095. Crew should have #28 wz.96 Beryl, not AKM rifles. It would need change in formations.

Weapon 049 should be changed to Mk.19 - this is the first and, as for now, only AGL in Polish service.

Michal

[Pibwl]

Quick list of IMO useful unused pics:

- 14021 - WR-40 Langusta, will be needed for new unit
- 29041 - SU-57 SP-gun (unit 550 has wrong Israeli one - or could be replaced with a photo)
- 29057 - 2P27 BRDM Shmel launcher (for many countries, 11031 is Falanga 2P32)
- 29063 - Polish BTR-40 seems better, than currently used 29097
- 29106 - open-topped BTR-152 (standard pic 11056 is hardtop 152K)
- 29130 - Tu-2 - will be needed for new unit
- 29137 - TS-11 Iskra - might be needed for new unit
- 29161 - SM-2 helicopter - will be needed for new unit
- 29168 - popular Soviet Zil-131 medium truck
- 29173 - Tatra T813 Kolos heavy truck
- 29202 - Zil-485 BAV (for many countries - might be replaced with a better view, anyway)
- 29208 - K-61 with AA gun - for possible use
- 29281 - BRDM-2 M96 - possibly better then 29521
- 29285 - 122mm wz.38/85 - modernized 122mm howitzer
- 29286 - GAZ-51
- 29310 - Project 716 landing craft
- 29333 - WP-8z MRL - correct pic for unit 161
- 29338 - BRDM 2P32 Falanga - alternative instead of 11031 for Soviet Union
- 29388 - modern Jelcz Polish heavy truck
- 29508 - WPT Mors ARRV - would fit as well for MT-LB-based vehicles, TI Durian and TRI (until more specific ones are created)
- 29509 - SP minelet launcher Kroton (I don't know if such vehicle will be of any use)


Michal

[Pibwl]

To continue with Inf AT

223 C Gustav Team - used from 1997 (now 1/100) [source: nTW 6/2005]. Rare weapon - used only by special forces and, from 2001, airmobile forces.
It has single Heat pen=50 range=9 in the game, but there are used tandem Heat rounds FFV 751 (ERA+500mm, range 450m) and ordinary FFV 551 (400mm, range 700 m).

370 PTRD ATR Team - withdrawn in 1948 due to limited value (now 12/49) [Poligon 2/2011]

371 PF Team - a small number of preserved original wartime Panzerfaust were commissioned to use in limited numbers from 1950 only [Poligon 3/2011] - although, in case of war, it would be logical to decide to utilize them earlier. They were designated in Poland as PG-49 - withdrawn by the end of 1952 (now: available 1/46-12/49). Maybe unit should be named "PG-49 Team" or "PG-49 (PF) Team"?

A Polish copy of Panzerfaust was produced in a small series, named Pc-100, used in 1953-57 [source: Poligon 4/2011]. Maybe there should be second unit, with the same weapon, differing in unit's name only?

372 RPG-2 Team - used in Poland only from 1953 (now: 1/50) [Poligon 4/2011]

379 Anti-Tank Team (1946-55) - RKG-3 grenade was post-war development - according to Russian Wikipedia, from 1950. But there's no sign, that it was used in Poland. Polish Military Equipment book mentions only WWII-era RPG-43 grenades, with 75mm penetration. More correct picture is 00351.

Michal

[Pibwl]

Next: paras and engineers

098 Para Squad (50-54) - paras should have SMGs (eg. 06) instead of bolt rifles. RPG-2 was used only from 1953 - it should be replaced with AT grenades.

099 Para Squad (55-68) - there's no sign of usage of P-27 Pancerovka in Poland (definitely not in any noticeable number) - should be replaced with ordinary #15 RPG-2.

100 Para Squad (69-89) - PKM LMG should be replaced with #12 7.62mm RPK SAW (they were used only by the paratroops in Poland), rifle could be changed to newer #29.
It's better to change RPG-7 to RPG-7V - although it was used in Poland from 1972 according to the info quoted before, but for most of the unit's period it's correct.

101, 102 Para Squad (99-99, 100-120) - RPG-7 as above.

103 SMG Section (50-62) - RPG-2 should be replaced with AT grenades. Maybe a second unit with RPG-2 should be created from some 1955.

106, 107 Sniper - more proper pic is 41019 (Mosin) or 29418 (SVT), instead of some rifle unused in Poland.

109 Engineers (62-76) - WW2-vintage ordinary Flamethower should be replaced with #113 LPO-50 flamethrower. In fact, it should have range extended to 2 - it was 70-90 m [Wojskowy Przeglad Techniczny no.6/97]. On the other hand, LPO-50 has only 3 shots.

In fact, according to a quoted source, flamethrowers were withdrawn in 1964 and returned in second half of 1970s. Moreover, they weren't used in sections, but in separate units. But I don't insist on changes here.

110 Engineers (69-99) - as above (LPO-50). I don't know, if a starting date shouldn't be 77, after a previous unit, or it's deliberate (they differ in number of men).

111 Engineers (100-120) - RPO-A Shmel should be replaced with LPO-50.

Poland didn't use RPO-A Shmel at all, only RPO Rys (weapon #76 in Russian oob), from late 70s until around early 1990s (say, 76-95), then they were withdrawn due to running out of ammo and wear of launchers [Wojskowy Przeglad Techniczny no.6/97]. They could be used in a new unit in that period.

Michal

[DRG]

100 Para Squad (69-89)
...

It's better to change RPG-7 to RPG-7V - although it was used in Poland from 1972 according to the info quoted before, but for most of the unit's period it's correct.
-
-
-
101, 102 Para Squad (99-99, 100-120) - RPG-7 as above.


What we have here, it seems Michal, is a failure to communicate.

Have we not already discussed that the basic RPG-7 in the game is the 330 pen version ( what you refer to as the RPG-7V )and did I not make the explanation clear as to why we do not show the early version with 260 mm pen in the game ??

Did you not acknowledge that you understood that was a game decision less than a week ago ?

Given all of that information please explain why you are asking me to "change RPG-7 to RPG-7V " now ??? The only 'RPG-7V" in the game was the 500 pen version you said Poland never used and that has been replaced with the standard RPG-7 with 330 mm pen in all units that used the "RPG-7V"

Don

[Pibwl]

Sorry, I misunderstood, that since Poland didn't use 500mm version, it's going to have 260mm (RPG-7) and 330mm (RPG-7V) ones.

Of course, basic 330mm variant with PG-7VM round is named RPG-7V as well (W in Poland), but I understand, that for consistency, RPG-7V in the game will be only RPG-7V with PG-7VL round (500mm).

Michal

[DRG]

Michal..... you need to go back and read all that was posted again and when you do you will discover that the only person saying.........



that since Poland didn't use 500mm version, it's going to have 260mm (RPG-7) and 330mm (RPG-7V) ones.




.........was you. So you have misunderstood yourself

I said


....the stock "RPG-7" is represented as the 330mm penetration version in all OOB's

then you answered your own question by saying....




I thought so. But since Poland didn't use newer Soviet rounds, it could have 260mm and 330mm rounds separated (although it's a handicap comparing to other RPG-7 users




You won't find any post by me agreeing that the early version should be added and I explained why it was done the way it's been done and then YOU explained why it would be an unfair to do so but somehow you decided the early version was going to be added and why I wrote we have "a failure to communicate"


Don

[DRG]

100 Para Squad (69-89) - PKM LMG should be replaced with #12 7.62mm RPK SAW (they were used only by the paratroops in Poland)



Just so I'm clear Michal........ WHICH LMG was "only by the paratroops in Poland" ???

The #12 7.62mm RPK SAW ?


Don

[Pibwl]

Yes, it's RPK SAW used by paratrooops only.

So you have misunderstood yourself


It seems so... :smirk: That's why I wrote, that I had misunderstood.

Michal

[DRG]

Yes, it's RPK SAW used by paratrooops only.


OK, ALL weapon #12 7.62mm RPK SAW have now been removed from non para units and replaced by the PKM.

Does "para only " apply to the 5.45mm RPK SAW as well ?

Don

[Pibwl]

Does "para only " apply to the 5.45mm RPK SAW as well ?


Yes - and maybe some special forces.

Michal

[Pibwl]

Helicopters

114 Mi-4 - precise name of this variant was Mi-4A. Used from 1958 (some 6/58) until some 1985 at least (now: 62-78) (needs change of first date in formations nos. 43-44).
Normal load is 12 men, max 16 (now: 112) (unit 312 in Russian oob has 116).
All were armed with 12.7mm MG (TKB-481 aka A-12,7), not 7.62mm - it concerns all countries using MG-armed Mi-4 in the game. I suggest to use weapon #177 renamed simply "12.7mm MG" or "..TKB MG" (other units using this weapon in the Polish oob shouldn't use it, BTW)

115 Mi-4 Gunship - Poland used definitely no gunship Mi-4 armed with rockets.
Needs date change in formation 45 - Attack Helicopter should be available from 1973 (Mi-2URN - see farther)

116 SM-2 - wrong name - this is just Mi-2. SM-2 was different helicopter (worth to be added by the way).
According to A.Morgała's book, Mi-2 was used by the armed forces from 3/68 (now 1/66).

117 SM-2 / Malutka - correct name is Mi-2URP. Apart from 4 missiles it has fixed 23mm NS-23 gun (there's no such Class 19 gun in weapons now) and a pivot 7.62mm PKM machine gun (#35?). Actually it takes onboard some 8 missiles, but has to land to reload.
Used from some 1973 (first shown) until 2015 at least (actually, with a gap in 1990-1994) (now: 1/75-91). Although, in later period it should have radio 91 or 93 - used for combat training mainly. Carry would be no more than 4 (108).

Proposed units:
- Mi-2URN - data like #117, but armed with one 23mm NS-23, pivot 7.62mm PKM and 32 x 57mm rockets (2x16). It can be two weapons #189 2x57mm S-5K with 8 shots each including some AP, or 4x57mm S-5K could be created. Used in 1973- some 2015. I suggest to replace Mi-4 gunship with it.

BTW: why not just change weapon #190 4x 57mm S-5 to 4x 57mm S-5K with range 40 and Heat 13, like in Russian OOB?

- Mi-2URPG Gad - like #117, with additional armament of 4 Strela-2 AA missiles #125. Used in some 1987- some 2015.
There could be also URNG version with rockets and Strela.
There was also Mi-2US with single 23mm and 4 x 7.62mm MGS, but I think it's not very useful.


118 Mi-8 - more precise name is Mi-8T. Armed Mi-8T were apparently used only from around 1973 (now: 1/68 - correct date for unarmed ones). Used until now, probably until 120 (12/86).
Mi-8s doesn't carry MG by default and never carried machineguns in the Polish service. On the other hand, it carries as a standard 4x16 tube 57mm rockets, so their number should be doubled or they should be replaced with 4x57mm S-5K. Icon of armed variant should be 1910.
Armed variant probably couldn't take 32 soldiers, especially, that 24 is quoted as normal load, and 32 as overload (4 launchers UB-16 will weigh some 600 kg).

119, 121 Mi-8 / Falanga - Poland never used gunship Mi-8 armed with missiles. It should be replaced with plain unarmed transport variant (used 1968-120, icon 1913)

120 Mi-17 - Polish Mi-17s don't carry a machinegun (as for now at least - there are such ideas for Afghanistan, but if so, it will be 7.62mm pivot one).
Armament carried by Mi-17 as a standard is 192 rockets S-5K (6x32 tube) - could be three weapons 4x57mm S-5K with 16 shots each, or new weapons 8x57mm S-5K with 8 shots.

122 W-3 Sokol - precisely, W-3T Sokol - plain transport variant used by the air force since 7/93 (transport ones were used by the navy since 7/89, but they were few and rather wouldn't operate for land units) (now: 1/89).

123 W-3WA Sokol - it should be available from 5/94 (now: 9/100) (to be precise, W-3W variant was delivered from 5/94, and slightly modified W-3WA was delivered only from mid-1996, but it's more numerous). According to Polish sources, 10 soldiers only can be carried apart from 2-men crew (now crew=3, carry=113) - there are 10 seats [Aeroplan no.5-6/04]. It shouldn't be Attack Helicopter, just an airmobile cavalry mean of transport.

There should be probably more gun ammo - it has 250 rounds (now: 4). It can carry only 20 rockets 80mm (now: 40) in 2x10 launchers (according to a quoted source and photos, they are carried only on two inner hardpoints). In addition to rockets, it can carry only tubes for HE cluster bomblets or minelets on outer hardpoints (little use in the game?) and 7.62mm pivot PKM MG in a window.
4x Strela missiles can be carried only instead of rockets on inner hardpoints, in addition to bomblets (there could be also mixed asymetrical variant of 2x Strela and 10 x 80mm rockets, in addition to bomblets). A photo showing weapons: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:PZL_W-3_Sokol,_front,_static_display,_Radom_AirShow_2005 ,_Poland.jpg

It has no special FC system (now: 15) - unit 428 has FC=4. It has no armour at all.
Radio should be 90 or 92 (now: 91) - most common helicopter at the moment.



124 Mi-24D - as a standard it can carry 4 missiles and 128 rockets S-5K (4x32) (now it carries only 32) (Mi-24D in a Russian oob also has too low number of rockets - 64. They are almost always seen with 4x32 tube launchers, sometimes with missiles as well). Used probably until 120 (12/106).

125 Mi-24W - most probably Polish Mi-24s don't carry 80mm rockets at all, I don't recall such photos and Polish Military Equipment book lists only 57mm. So, as a standard it carries only 4 missiles (now 8) and 128 rockets 57mm (now 40 rockets 80mm). Otherwise, 4 missiles and 80 rockets 80mm. Used until 120 (12/106).

126 MI-24PL Pluszcz - despite many talks on Pluszcz program, Polish Mi-24s didn't underwent any significant modernization eventually and plans were abandoned.

356-358 MI-24PL Pluszcz - as above.

One of them could be replaced with cheaper Mi-24D support configuration without AT missiles, only with 128 x 57mm rockets (AT missiles rather aren't useful for Iraq mission).

424 SM-1 - according to Polish sources, withdrawn by 1983 (now: 12/87) (needs change in formation #95). Max speed was only 185km/h (61 instead of 76) - for Mi-1 in all countries.

Proposed unit: SM-2 (correct one) - like SM-1, but carry=104, available 1961-79, speed=57 (170km/h), pic=29161.

428 W-3W Sokol - gun and pivot MG-armed variant, comments like #123 W-3WA Sokol (crew=2, carry=110, more gun ammo?, no armour). It rather shouldn't be Attack Helicopter, just an airmobile cavalry mean of transport. To be precise, first date of giving to units is 12 May 1994 (4/94).

667 W-3 Sokol - transport variant with pivot MGs - but there's no evidence, that plain transport Sokols (not numerous, anyway) can carry MGs at all (they had no opening windows, unlike W-3W). Other comments like #122 W-3T Sokol.

668 W-3 Sokol - as #667, with newer pivot MGs. Apart from doubtful existence of plain transport Sokols with MGs, it doesn't make much sense, since basic transport helicopters in this period should be armed W-3W.

960 W-3W Sokol - doubled entry of #428?

961 W-3W Sokol - variant with 23mm gun, 57mm rockets and pivot MGs. 57mm rockets are less efficient, than 80mm, but such configuration is used. Other comments like #123 W-3WA Sokol (it also can carry HE bomblets).

962 SW-3W Gluszec - proper name is W-3PL Gluszec [source Raport 9/2007]. Used from late 2008 at best (now 4/107) [source nTW 5/2008]. Can carry 64 rockets 57 mm (4x16) (now: 32), and pivot MGs.
Better option is 40x 80mm S-8 rockets (4x10) (it can replace one of redundant W-3s).
There is also known mixed configuration with 32 x 57mm and 20 x 80mm. It can be also armed with Western 70mm rockets in 4x 7-rocket launchers, but probably they haven't been commissioned in Poland so far.
(My photo of Gluszec weapons: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:W3PL_Gluszec_PICT0134.JPG )
It is also supposed to be transport and support helicopter, not attack one. In this Sokol variant, light armour is correct.

963, 964 SW-3W Huzar - if Spike missiles will be integrated with W-3 (there are such plans), it will be around 2014 (now: 107) and it will be still W-3PL Gluszec (W-3W Huzar was a prototype from late 90s.)

965 EH-101 - fiction, especially from 2006.

966 SW-4 - introduced in 1/2007 (precisely, 12/06) (now: 1/105). Crew should be 1 and carry 4 (now: 2 and 3). It has no formation as for now (Light Helicopter). Might be named SW-4 Puszczyk (...name looks horribly, isn't it?).

967 Mi-2 Kania - modernization of Mi-2, never used by the army - only Polish Border Guard (I can check, from when).

968 Mi-14 - it's nice, but I don't think that such unit is useful - it's naval anti-sub or SAR helicopter. Anyway, it was used since 6/81 and carries no gun - only torpedoes and depth charges ;)

970 SH-2 Sea Sprite - another nice unit, but of not much use - naval deck A/S helicopter. Their only anti-ground armament is 7.62 mm PK MG, but it was fitted only during a modernization in 2007. They don't carry rockets and are not supposed to do so in the future. Not an "Attack helicopter" definitely. It could probably take 1-2 persons more in sonar operator's cab, but not 8 nor much cargo (108).

I think that's all I've collected on helicopters at the moment...

Michal

[Pibwl]

Supplements and corrections of previous info (well, the research still goes on. I've just bought a new book)


025 SU-100 - according to a new source, 23 were bought in 1951-52. Still not a big number - radio code 1?

027 JSU-152 (ISU-152) - standard load was 10 AP, 10 HE (no Heat)

041 BTR-40A - in a new book by J. Kajetanowicz on the Polish land army 1945-60, there's no sign of such variant as well.

048 SA-3 Goa - I wrote: "Quadruple launchers appeared with S-125M Newa, from mid-70s only (probably 1973)" - according to an author on the quoted pages on AA missiles (retired officer), from 1974. Before that date, twin launchers were used.

056 BTR-152 - it appears, that first few were bought in 1951, but still first significant batches were bought in 1955 only (as I've written, there were only 6 in 12/54). IMO should be available from 1955.

068 B10 Recoilless (inf-RR) - start date at 1/55, as I suggested, seems close to reality.

078 57mm AT-Gun (1965-96) - should be removed in this period indeed, considered obsolete yet in 1950s. Even if they were stored, it's not a real option then.

082 85mm AT-Gun - possibly it was used from 1954, as I've written, but in 1/56 there were only 2 guns. Realistic start date is mid-56 (now 1/55) - a production in Poland started in 1955, so they quickly began to appear.

084 M1944 100mm ATG - starting date should be 1/51 (1947 quoted before referred in fact to period 1947-50, when they were bought)

086 ZPU-2 AAMG - used from some 1/55 only (now 1/50)

098, 99 Para Squad (50-54, 55-68) - in fact, Poland created first paratroop unit (6th Paratroop Division) in 6/59 only! (realistic date of readiness - some 1/60). Before that date, some paratroop scouts or special units could be used, but not as regular troops.
In fact it appears, that small numbers of P-27 Pancerovka were actually used - but for a short time only, so they should be replaced with more common RPG-2 anyway, used at the same time and finally chosen as a standard.

370 PTRD ATR Team - it appears, that theoretically they were withdrawn, but in practice still used until some 1952 (now 12/49). Other thing, that it was totally inefficient by then.

372 RPG-2 Team - could be even made as early, as mid-52.

373 SPG-82 RR - still there's no sign of usage (while the book mentions even small number of T-21 Tarasnice)

379 Anti-Tank Team (1946-55) - still no info on RKG-3 grenades, but also RPG-6 with pen 100mm were used (picture 00351), and from some 1957, RPG-57 with pen=140.

702 Marynarka PT-76 - better date of withdrawal is 12/95 - just as Topas APC mentioned before (last units using them were disbanded in 1994 - with safe margin, 1995).

Michal

[Pibwl]

379 Anti-Tank Team (1946-55) - still no info on RKG-3 grenades, but also RPG-6 with pen 100mm were used (picture 00351), and from some 1957, RPG-57 with pen=140.


By writing this, I don't mean to add an improved AT grenade from 1957, when better RPG-2 was already widespread. Only a basic AT grenade should have penetration 8-10 (RPG-43 or RPG-6).

Michal

[DRG]

Helicopters

BTW: why not just change weapon #190 4x 57mm S-5 to 4x 57mm S-5K with range 40 and Heat 13, like in Russian OOB?





Already done last October and as well all Helicopters and aircraft were checked in all OOB's that use those type of rockets in the game to ensure the helo types are only used by helos and aircraft types are only used by aircraft and that aircraft only have "HE" ammo and that Helos have "AP" or HEAT rounds if applicable.

Off map aircraft do not use AP ammo as "AP". "AP" is the number of guns in an aicraft Unit Class so off map aircraft rockets that have HEAT warheads have a HE Pen rating while on map helicopter rockets are free to use AP ammo as HEAT and are set up with HEAT pen ratings and that was actually one of the first projects completed


Don

[Pibwl]

Time for the aircraft

127 Yak-3 - should be removed IMO. Yak-3 were pure fighters, very scarce in Poland (no more than 20), and all withdrawn by the end of 1946. It should carry no bombs - now it has 24 ;)

It can be changed to anti-tank Jak-9T with 1x 37 mm N-37 gun (#184) and 1x 12.7mm UBS (#175), no bombs, used until 1951 (Polish - also Czech, German, Hungarian spelling is Jak).

128 Yak-9M - it was armed in fact with 1x 20 mm and 1x 12.7mm UBS, not 2 x 20mm.

Despite Russian sources on Yak-9 don't say explicitly, that it couldn't carry bombs, but they describe gun armament only and don't suggest any possibility, that it could carry bombs (apart from very rare Yak-9B fighter-bomber variant, which was unique in that way, that it carried bombs vertically in a bomb bay). There are also no photos of Yak-9 with bombs. Certainly it was not common use. So it seems, that they shouldn't have bombs at all in the game, unless there is a source, that some user modified them this way. In Russia, it was Il-2/Il-10 aircraft to carry out ground attack, not fighters (not counting strafing - including 37 mm gun-armed fighters)

129 Yak-9W - in fact, Jak-9W (Yak-9V) was a two-seater trainer with reduced armament (1x20mm), no bombs and speed 5-6.
It might be changed to Jak-9P with 1x 20 mm Shvak #180 and 2x 12.7mm UBS, no bombs, speed=7 (8), available from 11/47 to 1954, drawing 29118. Anyway, this would be strafing aircraft only, little useful.

130 Yak-23 - Polish spelling: Jak-23. They carried 2x 60 kg bombs, not 25 kg.
Weapon #193 should be changed to 60 kg (it's the only user) - or #194 50kg bomb could be just renamed or slightly upgraded (it shouldn't be used by propeller Yaks, mentioned above)
In fact, operationally used from mid-51 (1/51)

131 MiG-15 - MiG-15s didn't carry obsolete RS-82 rockets, nor any other rockets in the Polish service. Could be armed with two bombs 100 kg - otherwise a new bomb-armed unit should be created. Used from mid-51 (1/50)

132 MiG-17 - MiG-17s didn't carry obsolete RS-82 rockets. Could be armed with two bombs 250 kg. It should be in fact named Lim-5 - Polish licensed MiG-17F (Poland probably didn't use original Soviet-built MiG-17s, or they were a small number). Produced in Poland from 11/1956 (realistic date: 1/57) (now: 1/55).

133 MiG-17F - same as above as for RS-82, name and date. This unit is therefore IMO redundant. (BTW, not used with camouflage, and used not later, than unit above - now 12/98)

134 MiG-17bis - there didn't exist MiG-17bis variant at all. Judging from 3x23mm guns, it is radar-equipped MiG-17PF. But standard MiG-17 fighters didn't use rockets in Polish service. IMO redundant unit.

135 MiG-17PF - bombs could be changed to 250 kg, but this unit is redundant, if we change standard MiG-17F (eg. #132) to bomb-armed variant (MiG-17F has stronger gun armament and is available earlier).
If we keep it, in fact, it should be named Lim-5P, available from 1959 (1/71) and end in 1970s (now 12/88). Later most fighters were converted to ground attack Lim-6bis/6M.

To end a subject of MiG-15/17:
685 Lim-1 - license produced MiG-15, strafing unit only. IMO redundant as a strafer.

IMO it should be armed with 2x100 kg bombs, and be available alongside #131 MiG-15 - Lim name is more strongly associated with the Polish airforce of the 1950s. But it should be in fact available from 1/53 (now 1/50)

686 Lim-1A - sources don't mention "A" variant (I don't know why it's supposed to have better vision). RS-82 rockets weren't used. To be removed IMO.

687 Lim-2 - licensed MiG-15bis. RS-82 rockets weren't used. Could be armed with 2x100kg bombs, to keep Lim-2 name in the game, but it's in fact redundant (should be used from 10/54 - now 1/54)

688 Lim-2A - sources don't mention "A" variant (I don't know why it's supposed to have better vision). RS-82 rockets weren't used. To be removed IMO.

689 Lim-5 - RS-82 rockets weren't used, only 2x250kg bombs. It is redundant, if we rename #132 MiG-17 this way.

690 Lim-5M - first trial of creating a ground attack variant, but used from 1/61 (1/60) until around end of 60s (now 12/84) - later converted to Lim-6bis. Better picture is 29113 - without camo.

691 Lim-6bis - basic light attack plane of that time - radio should be 90 (91). A number of rockets should be doubled - it carried 2x16 rockets S-5 plus 2x250kg bombs (8-rocket launchers weren't even used). Better picture is 29112 and icon 2809 - camouflaged ones.

692 Lim-6M - in fact, Lim-6M should be armed with 3x23mm guns, so it's better IMO to keep its gun armament (1x37, 2x23) and rename it to Lim-6bis (Lim-6M, differing in weaker gun armament only, appeared several years after Lim-6bis - 1971/72). Picture and icon - as above.
However, variant differing only with lighter bombs from the above one doesn't make much sense. It could be armed with 2x250kg and 2x100kg bombs instead.
There was probably a possibility of arming it with 64 rockets (4x16), but it's unseen on photos.

We could also add a cheap variant of Lim-6bis, with 32 rockets only (and drop tanks), without bombs.

End of part 1

Michal

[Pibwl]

Aicraft, part II

136 Il-10 - used until 1959 only (now 12/68). According to a Russian book on Il-10 [Aviakollektsya 5/2004], it could carry only 4 rockets (now it has 2x4), but better idea is to arm it with four 132mm RS Rockets (#191 from Russian OOB) instead of RS-82. In addition to 4 rockets, it could carry 2x100 kg bombs or cluster HE or AT bomblets in bomb bays.

RS-132 might replace RS-82 in weapons' file, to save a slot (it would replace RS-82 in Il-10 and Il-2, other a/c shouldn't use it anyway).


137 MiG-19PM - PM was an interceptor, without ground attack capabilities, and even without guns (reportedly it could theoretically use 210mm rockets, but not in Poland).

Could be changed to MiG-19P with two guns 30 mm and 32 x 57mm rockets (4x8). Used from 6/58 until 74.

138 MiG-19PF - name should be changed to MiG-19P (there didn't exist MiG-19PF variant at all). Used from 6/58 until 74. Apart from 2x250 kg bombs it should carry 16 x 57 mm rockets (weapon #190 4x57mm with 4 shots) (if it carried bombs instead of drop tanks, it should as well carry rocket pods on their dedicated points). Radio should be 91 - it was a rare plane, and not a ground attack one.

139 MiG-21bis - used from 3/80 until 1/2004 (1/80-12/98). Better picture of specifically Polish MiG-21bis is 29230 or 29349 (drawing).

140 MiG-21bis - as above. If we want to increase its punch, it can carry 96 rockets 57mm (2x32, 2x16) (now 64) - there might be added third weapon #190 with 8 shots. Radio should be just 90 (92) - it wasn't typical ground attack plane.

There could be created also MiG-21M - as above, used 1970-around 1990, armed with 64 rockets S-5 (it would be transitional in number of rockets between MiG-21PF and bis)

141 MiG-19PF - to be removed - MiG-19s weren't ground attack aicraft and didn't carry parachute bombs.

142 MiG-21bis - as #139. Publications don't mention using parachute bombs as an option in MiG-21 - it is doubtful. It could take 2-4 napalm bombs #221 ZAB-250 instead (even two 500 kg napalm bombs).

143 MiG-21PF - pictures of Polish MiG-21s are 29142 or 29230 (although later version)

144 MiG-21PF - pictures as above. This version could carry only 32 rockets (2x16; now: 64 rockets).

I don't know why MiG-21PF have vision 10, while more modern MiG-21bis have 0.


Other options to add:
- MiG-21M, used 1970-2000, armed with 4 rockets S-24 (weapon 023 from Russian OOB)

- MiG-21M armed with 2 x Kh-66 missiles, used in around 1972-89.
Kh-66 (AS-7) was basically an earlier version of kh-23 Kerry: HE/HEAT warhead 103 kg including 51 kg of explosive (Ch-25 has warhead 108 kg), max range 8-10 km. Accuracy around 50 - it was beam-riding missile. It can replace #206 Kh-23 Kerry (not used in Poland).


145 MiG-23MF - delivered in 6/79, used until 12/99 (now 1/79-1/99). In addition to 2 bombs 500 kg (1000 lb) it can take 2 x 250 kg (max 1600 kg). Better Polish icon is 1927.

BTW: weapon 198 - 1000lb bomb should be renamed to 500kg.

146 MiG-23MF - maximum number of rockets was 128 (4x32), not 160, so it should be given 11, 11, 10 shots. Delivered from 6/79, used until 12/99. Radio should be 91 - it wasn't a numerous plane.

Sukhoi planes will come later.

148 MiG-29 - no standard early MiG-29 can carry air-to-ground missiles. Publications don't mention usage of parachute bombs on Polish MiG-29s. Typical (and only?) anti-ground armament is 4 x 500 kg ordinary bombs or 80 x 80mm rockets.
Used in Poland from 1/89 until 120 (now 1/92-12/114)
It's worth to change pic from generic to Polish 29121 or 29236

307 MiG-23MF - redundant (I can't see any difference but the icon and narrower timespan comparing to #145 unit). To be removed IMO.

308 MiG-23MF - redundant (the same as unit #146, with less rockets).

309 Il-2m3 - it should be armed with two #185 23mm VYa cannons instead of 12.7 mm (standard for late model Il-2). It's worth to change RS-82 rockets to 4 heavier RS-132 (from Soviet oob) and 2x 100 kg bombs.

Other proposed variants:
- 2 x 250kg bombs only

- rockets and AP bomblets (if they are used in the game).

556 MiG-29 - S-13 rockets are not used in Poland. Could be armed with cluster bombs and 2-4 x 240 mm S-24 rockets (weapon #023 from Rus.OOB, quite obsolete though) or 40 x 80mm rockets S-8 (weapon #203).
Used in Poland from 1/89 (now 1/92)
It's worth to change pic from Serbian to Polish 29121 or 29236

557 MiG-29 - usage, picture as above. It isn't clear, if parachute bombs are used on MiG-29s. Could be armed with 4 x 500 kg bombs or 6 x #221 ZAB-250 FAE napalm bombs.

558, 559 MiG-23 - to be removed (I don't know what is their purpose, they sure won't be used in 2015-2020, for MiG-23s were withdrawn in 1999). In addition they have same armament as units 145-146 and 307-308 and icons of Su-22.

Regards
Michal

[Pibwl]

Fighter-bombers - the rest


We could also add a cheap variant of Lim-6bis, with 32 rockets only (and drop tanks), without bombs.


- It would fit well instead of unit 133 or 134. Specs of #133 are OK for this purpose (apart from rockets), but used in 1964-1992, radio 90.
I think it doesn't make much sense to convert #134 to Lim-6M, differing from Lim-6bis in 3 guns 23mm instead of 1x37 and 2x23, used from 1971.

147 Su-7B (4 napalm bombs) - should be renamed Su-7BM or BKL, available until 6/90

Poland used only BM and BKL variants - both little differed in game terms, but BM were delivered earlier (1964). From 9/71, six-hardpoint variants started to replace four-hardpoint (in both models). I usually name 6-hardpoint model BKL.

149 Su-7B (2x 500kg bombs) - should be renamed Su-7BM, introduced from 6/64, withdrawn 6/90 (now 1/61-12/99). It could carry even 4x 500kg bombs without drop tanks (now it has only 2, like lighter MiG-21) (in case of war, planes with such maximum payload would also appear, on close range missions)

150 Su-7B (96 rockets 57mm - 6x16) - should be renamed Su-7BKL, used from 9/71 until 6/90.

Options worth to be created:
- Su-7BM with 64 rockets 57mm (4x16), from 6/64 until some 1975 (or 8/71, if we'd want to draw a clear line)
- Su-7BKL with 4 or 6 rockets S-24 (mentioned before, to be created), from 9/71 until 6/90 (configuration with 6 rockets is seen on photo)
- possibly Su-7BKL with 6 bombs 250 kg (from 9/71 until 6/90).

151 Su-7B (2 cluster bombs) - it should be renamed Su-7BKL, used until 6/90.
In addition to 2 bombs, it could carry at least 32 rockets S-5 (2x16).


152 Su-20MK (4 cluster bombs) - name was just Su-20 (Su-17MK was Russian designation). Used in 5/74-2/97 (now 1/74-12/98). In addition to bombs, it could carry 64 rockets 57mm (without drop tanks)

Possible options to be created:
- Su-20 with 10 x 250 kg bombs.
- Su-20 with 4 x 500 kg bombs (in case we haven't made Su-7 with 4x500 kg)
- Su-20 with 128 x 57mm rockets (4x32) (maximum payload was probably 192 rockets - 6x32)

They could replace #558, 559 MiG-23 (with Su-20 icon anyway)


153 Su-22M-4 (2xKh-25) - used in Poland only from 1984 until 120 (now 1/74-12/100).
All Su-22s should have laser RF. Since that date, Su-22M4s are basic Polish strike aircraft, so they should have generally radio=0. By the way, better way of writing name in Polish sources is "Su-22M4".

Apart from 2 Kh-25 missiles, it can carry at least 40 x 80mm rockets in addition (weapon #203) or 2 bombs 500 kg (not a maximum payload - with drop tanks).
A possible configuration seen on photos is 4 missiles Kh-25.

Other configurations, that should be added:
- 6 bombs 500 kg (maximum 8 x 500kg)
- 6 rockets S-24
- 80 rockets 80mm S-8 (4x20)

154 Su-22M-4 (2xKh23) - Kh-23 missiles weren't used in Poland at all. Su-22M4 can carry two heavier Kh-29 Kedge instead (#208 in Russian oob), and 40 x 80mm rockets or 2 bombs 250 kg in addition. Available from 1/84 as well.

155 Su-7B (6xPB-250) - it should be renamed Su-7BKL and used until 6/90.

156 Su-22M-4 (9xPB-250) - used from 1984 until 120.

157 Su-22M-4 (40 rockets S-8, 2 napalm bombs) - used as above.


585 MiG-29M (SEAD) - no early MiG-29 can carry air-to-ground missiles. Polish ones definitely don't carry any - to be removed.

The only Polish SEAD aircraft (before F-16) should be Su-22M4 armed with 2 Kh-25MP missiles (up to 4) and 2 bombs or 40x 80mm rockets.
Weapon 215 Kh-27 Kegler (not used in Poland) should be renamed to Kh-25MP - I think, data would be the same (it was the same family of missiles).
It would need date change in formation 155.

952 Yak 9M - as I wrote before, wrong cannon armament and shouldn't carry rockets - redundant unit IMO (Soviet fighters in 1941-43 were often fit to carry rockets, but from around 1944, newer versions of fighters aren't credited with such capability in Russian sources).

As for now, I leave F-16s undisturbed. I wish it was Gripen by the way...

To be added:
Avia B-33 - like Il-10, but armed with 4 x VYa-23 guns, from 1/54 until 1959 (armament: 4 x RS-132 rockets and 2 bombs 100 kg).

Regards
Michal

[Pibwl]

Now it's down the hill... Still a lot of units, but less absorbing. Part of them I'll leave till next year.

Rocket artillery

160 BM-21 Grad - weapons should be ordinary #128 122mm LR with range 211 (21 km) - I don't know why it is supposed to be "SR" with 201 range. There's no mention on such short-ranged rockets in Polish sources, and BM-21s from the beginning used standard 21-km rockets M-21OF. Used until 110 at least (now: 12/90), probably until some 115. Crew is only 4 (now: 12).

Therefore, weapon 104 is useless - it might be replaced with 122mm Feniks-Z rockets with range extended to 42 km [source Raport 8/05].

There should be created new SP-rocket launcher WR-40 Langusta, using modified Grad rockets Feniks-Z - in service from 7/2008 [source ntw 8/08], picture 14021, some icon with a short cab (396 could be, or 394 - fits better to Jelcz truck's flat windows), speed some 90 km/h. It uses 40 rockets Feniks-Z.

There should be created also unit WR-40 platoon with 4 launchers

161 WP-8 MRS - full name: WP-8z. Correct picture is 29333. Used until end of 1970s only (12/96) [source: nTW 6/94]

163 130mm M-51 MRS - there's no sign, that they were used in Poland. To be removed, unless somebody can find a source. At that time, Poland used Soviet BM-14s, which offered longer range.

164 BM-13 Katyusha - might be Polish spelling: Katiusza

165 BM-21 Grad Pl - as unit #160 - weapons should be changed to 128, used until some 115 (12/90).

166 RPU-14 MRS - they weren't used in Poland - there was similar own WP-8z developed.

167 BM-14-16 MRS - definitely used before 1960 - from some 1957 until 1989 at best (now: 1/67-12/96). Icon shows BM-13 - 2228 looks quite appropriate (described as BM-11), or 397.

168 BM-24 Pl - used until end of 1970s at best (now: 12/96 - definitely not that long). Correct picture is 11034 - now it's BM-21

...

295 RM-70 MRL-CM - CM rockets weren't used in Poland until recently, and now they are used first of all with modified WR-40 SP-launchers. So, this unit should be changed to WR-40 MRL-CM, in service from 7/2008 (data as above)

Therefore, weapon 212 should be changed to fit 122mm Feniks CM rockets, with range extended to 30 km [source: Raport 8/05]

296 RM-70 MRL - it can carry 40 rockets and 40 reloads (now: 40). Crew is only 4 (6) [Polish Military Equipment]. Max speed is 80 km/h (now: 15)

298 RM-70 Modular - isn't used as for now and little probable, that it will be


Michal

[Pibwl]

O/M artillery

171 155mm Section - fiction. M777 is not used as for now, and not in plans. Class is inappropriate BTW.

174 122mm Section (46-89, A-19) - correct picture is 36142 or 41091. Maybe it should be named "122mm Gun Sec" to differentiate from howitzers? And maybe it should be rather Heavy Artillery? (it was considered long-range gun then).

176 152mm Section (50-64, D-1) - last date should be 12/65 (12/64) to avoid gap before unit #186. But in fact I can see no difference between the two.

177 152mm Section (65-103) - D-20 howitzers weren't used in Poland. It should have ML-20 Gun-How, used from 1950 (in 3-gun unit) until late 1990s. Picture eg. 36141 or 29401 or 32015
Maybe it should be named 152mm Gun Sec.

ML-20 weapon (eg. weapon #239 from Czech OOB) could replace one of identical weapons #114 or #240 D-1 (and all D-1 units in the game should use a remaining one). Weapon #111 D-20 is used for Dana Sp-howitzer.

178 155mm Section+ - fiction. Not used as for now, and no firm plans.

180 100mm Support - Polish ships with 100mm guns were used only from 7/47 until 1967 (until a damage of the destroyer Blyskawica's machinery). Before 1947 there were no ships with real naval guns available (not counting allies). It would demand change in formations, if we want to correct it.

181 130mm Support - Polish ships with 130mm guns existed only between 1958-1986 (now: 46-120).

182 76mm Support - ships with 76mm gun are used from 1/84 only (1/70) - and only single naval guns are available after 2003.

186 152mm Section (66-99, D-1) - used until early 90s only (say, 1992 - now: 12/99) [not present in Polish Military Equipment book from 1998]

190 122mm Section (66-103, M30) - A photo of Polish late M30 howitzer is 29285 (with new tyres).

Rest later.

Michal

[Pibwl]

Artillery - rest

500 76mm Battery - armament should be ordinary #122 76.2mm ZiS-3 FG. Current #241 76mm L51 obr36 was pre-war Soviet gun F-22, not used by Poland (this weapon is useless).

502 152mm Battery (46-49, D-1) - D-1 howitzers were used only from early 1950s [according to J. Kajetanowicz's book]. It should be changed to 152mm ML-20 gun-howitzers, used from 1946 (as my comments on unit #177)

541 M77 Dana - should be named just Dana, eventually Dana wz.77, but it's worse option (M77 is Western designation, in Poland it is designated "SP-gun-howitzer wz.77" - 1977 Pattern, but "wz.77" doesn't make much sense alone).

Dana's gun isn't D-20 - weapon #111 should be renamed to wz.77 or M.77 Howitzer. According to Polish and Czech sources, range is 18,7 km, using extended range ammo - 20 km (now range 214).

547 M77 Dana+ - name as #541. Is AP meant to be cluster munition? In fact, it doesn't use any - and won't be in predictable future (the only cluster rounds commissioned so far are for 122mm rockets and 98mm mortars)

552 2S1 Gozdzik - apart from a cool camo (applied from mid-90s, not 105), the only difference from unit #39 is radio 91 - it should have 90 as well - it'll remain basic Polish SP-gun until 120. There shouldn't be AAMG. I suggest to make a border between these units at 94/95 years.

759 Krab Platoon - the first three-gun Krab platoon was made possible from mid-2010 (third gun made). There's a hope, that by 2013 there'll be another three at last... Radio code should be 3 IMO. There's no AP ammo as for now.

760 2S7 Platoon - used from 1986 until spring of 2006 [Poligon nr 06/2009] (now: 1/87-12/120) (- like comments for unit #38). Radio code should be 1 or 3 (8 guns only).

761 M77 Platoon - name should be Dana Platoon.

762 M77 Platoon+ - as unit #547 - no AP bomblet ammo.

Michal

[Pibwl]

Rest, in order of appearance:

199 Concrete Bunker (80-120) - well... B11 recoilless guns weren't used that long, and I can't imagine firing a recoilless gun from a closed bunker. Might be replaced with #231 85mm gun, as in unit 198. There was no 40mm AGL used - might be replaced with second MG or 40mm PALLAD-D #124. But in fact, there were no gun-armed fortifications used in Poland after the war...

200 Hibernyt SPAA - correct name is "Hibneryt". Used from 1986 at least (from photos in military press) (now 1/92). Maybe FC and RF should be higher - basic ZU-23-2 gun (unit 88) has FC 5, RF 3 (this one: 2/1).

There should be added new SP-AAgun Hibernyt-P - from 2008, with lightly armoured cab, platform (lower sides of gun mounting from sides and rear) and gun's front plate. Maybe armour 1/1/1/ 1/0/0/ 0 ?

201 LSPZRA Sopel - SP-AAgun - prototype only from mid-90s, abandoned.

202 ZSU-4MP Biala - correct designation is ZSU-23-4MP Biala. Fire control should be possibly higher (now 20) - it has modern computer electro-optical fire control system, with laser RF (now RF 8). It could be fitted with new APDS ammo, with increased penetration.
Radio code 1 - I'm afraid there is still less, than 10 vehicles.

203 Strela-2 Team - used from 1972 (1/68) [Polish Military Equpiment book] - might need date change in some formations. Polish name is Strzala-2M (Strela-2M eventually), used until now at least (say, until 115 - now: 104). Better rifle is AKMS (029)

204, 206 98mm Mortar /Plt - Beryl SMG hasn't been commissioned by regular units so far (only special forces) - should be ordinary Beryl rifle #28

205 Grom Team - there should be created two units. First was a transition missile Grom-I, produced from 1995 and used in small quantities from no earlier, than mid-95 (now 1/95). It should have radio code 3 or 1, but radio chance should be better. Rifle should be ordinary AKMS #29 (too early for Beryl). Might be used until 2000.

Specifications of #126 PPZR Grom SAM (which should be named Grom-I) should be no worse, than early Igla missiles (which have accuracy 118 - this one 90). Grom was basically a partly-licensed copy of Igla.

Final version is named just Grom and was introduced from 2001 [Raport 6/2000]. Radio code=90.
It should have a new weapon, with accuracy well above 120.
According to Polish official figures, final Grom is better, than basic Igla missiles (kill probability of a fighter 0.6 vs 0.45 in Igla/Igla-1 and 0.3 in Strela-3) [Raport 9/1999]. Ordinary Igla/Igla-1 in Russian oob have accuracy 118, Igla-N - 126, Igla-S - 150. Max range of Grom is 5500 m (same source).


213 PKMS MMG [2] - should be used until 120 - AKMS and PKMS rather won't be wiped out totally before 120 (now: 12/101)

214 12.7mm WKM HMG - as #96. It should be named just NSW HMG (better pic is common 11096).

Distinction between these two units (rifle only) doesn't make much sense, because AKMS was just an AKM with folding stock, adapted in late 60s, not in 1985...

Maybe 008 AKM Rifle should be renamed to AK Rifle (basic model AK-47, adopted in Poland in 1952), and 029 AKMS Rifle to AKM Rifle (adopted in 1965). Both have the same specifications in game terms, but AKM name in 1955 is anachronism. It would cover also folding stock versions (AKS and AKMS), without distinction.

If we rename weapon 008 AKM to AK, than both WKM HMG units should have later #29 rifle.

216 C Gustaf RCL (in-RR) - comments like unit #223 (dates OK, but it's a rare weapon - used only by special forces and, from 2001, airmobile forces). It doesn't belong to any formation in this period as for now. Maybe we don't need it, since we have such unit 223 Inf-AT.

224 M777 FH - fiction.

230 Ammo Truck - more proper picture is eg. 29168 Zil-133, not unfamiliar in Poland US truck.

231 Ammo Carrier - in fact, special armoured ammo carriers were never used in Poland, especially on MT-LB chassis (armoured ammo carriers for SP-guns weren't Soviet practice).

One of removed MTLBs (like units 407, 422) could be changed to mentioned before engineer's reconnaissance carrier TRI Hors, basing on MTLB. Proposed class 122 light support APC (one unit 922 uses this class, but should be removed).
Based upon MT-LB, armed with NSVT AAMG, SD (8 tubes), used from around 1983 until 2020, speed 60 km/h, carry 109. It should swim a bit faster, than MT-LB thanks to hydrojets. Picture: 29508.

It would need new formation, with a single vehicle.

There could be also possibly created ISM Kroton SP minelet launcher, basing upon MT-LB, used from some 2004 (in small number), picture: 29509 (if it's needed, I can provide more info).

Regards
Michal

[Marcello]

231 Ammo Carrier - in fact, special armoured ammo carriers were never used in Poland, especially on MT-LB chassis (armoured ammo carriers for SP-guns weren't Soviet practice).

No, but MT-LBs used as artillery tractors have racks for carrying ammunition internally (see an example here (http://www.flickr.com/photos/16498755@N07/5098897685/)). So while there probably may not be dedicated armored ammunition carriers there are vehicles that could perform such task. From what I recall from past discussions it is an unit that some players feel to be rather useful, so if it can be kept around it might be worthwhile leaving it alone.

[Pibwl]

231 Ammo Carrier - in fact, special armoured ammo carriers were never used in Poland, especially on MT-LB chassis (armoured ammo carriers for SP-guns weren't Soviet practice).

No, but MT-LBs used as artillery tractors have racks for carrying ammunition internally (see an example here (http://www.flickr.com/photos/16498755@N07/5098897685/)). So while there probably may not be dedicated armored ammunition carriers there are vehicles that could perform such task.

You're right, but they were first of all dedicated tractors for MT-12 100mm AT guns, while the Soviets didn't use special armoured ammo carriers for SP-artillery, as is the Western practice. Possibly MT-LB could be utilized this way, but it was rather not a rule.

As for Poland however, MT-LB was never used as an artillery tractor, so it wouldn't transport ammo as well. As I wrote before, basic MT-LBs they were put into use only as drivers' training vehicles, and several special variants were developed. Also a special ammo carrier for 2S1 guns, with higher compartment, was developed in late 80s, but it wasn't produced.

Michal

[Pibwl]

There should be added new SP-AAgun Hibernyt-P - from 2008, with lightly armoured cab, platform (lower sides of gun mounting from sides and rear) and gun's front plate. Maybe armour 1/1/1/ 1/0/0/ 0 ?

...

engineer's reconnaissance carrier TRI Hors, basing on MTLB. Proposed class 122 light support APC (one unit 922 uses this class, but should be removed).
Based upon MT-LB, armed with NSVT AAMG, SD (8 tubes), used from around 1983 until 2020, speed 60 km/h, carry 109. It should swim a bit faster, than MT-LB thanks to hydrojets. Picture: 29508.

...

There could be also possibly created ISM Kroton SP minelet launcher, basing upon MT-LB, used from some 2004 (in small number), picture: 29509 (if it's needed, I can provide more info).


Some photos, so that we know what we're talking about:

Hibneryt-P
http://www.targikielce.pl/index.html?k=mspo&s=wystawa_sil_zbrojnych_pancerze

TRI Hors
http://www.armyrecognition.com/polish_army_light_armoured_vehicle_blind_s_l_gers/mt-lb_tri-d_tracked_armoured_vehicle_combat_engineer_squad_p olish_army_poland_description_identifica.html

ISM Kroton
http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product.php?prodID=3446&printmode=1

[DRG]

Michal......... Do you see SP minelet launchers in anyone elses OOB???

[Pibwl]

It's only because I saw its picture and read about minelet artillery.

OK, the rest:

Speaking of Mi-24s, more appropriate icon for most of their service is a camouflaged one 3487. Only since several years, refitted helicopters are painted dark green.

Time for Rosomaks:

207 and 681 Rosomak - despite plans, Rosomak turret hasn't been integrated with Spike. Isn't 18+18 ammo for a gun too low number? (it carries 470 rounds; USMC LAV-25 has 30+33 for 25mm gun). It can carry only 8 troops - in any way, not 13 (sections #337 or 338 should fit)

Since 8/2007 Rosomaks (Polish: wolverine) employed in Afghanistan received additional armour plating on hull front and sides and partly on turret sides (photo: http://www.armyrecognition.com/images/stories/east_europe/poland/exhibition/mspo_2008/pictures_gallery/Rosomak_8x8_M1_wheeled_armoured_infantry_fighting_ combat_vehicle_MSPO_2008_001.jpg, armour in white: http://www.altair.com.pl/cz-art-814 ). All Rosomaks in the game are uparmoured - in fact only part vehicles should be uparmoured. But I think, that frontal steel armour 12 hull and 9 turret is an overkill - the new armour is meant to be proof against 14.5mm (pen=3), level IV STANAG 4569. And I'm not sure, if Heat armour, especially side one (10, comparing to steel 4) is justified. All uparmoured Rosomaks can't swim.

(Polish chief of staff claimed, that new armour plating is meant also to protect forward portion against RPG-7, but I'm not sure if he knew what he was talking about... Armour 15 shouldn't stop RPG-7 anyway. On the other hand, there were cases, when Rosomaks survived RPG shots - without closer details, where and if they were penetrating).

So, 207 and 681 should be two units:
- Rosomak with lighter armour (typical for wheeled APC of that class, like LAV-25 or Pandur? - some 4/3/2), available 1/105-120.
- Rosomak M1, with heavy armour (but maybe not that heavy), available from 8/07, without swimming ability.

All standard Rosomaks are plain green 3541, on all operation theatres (maybe apart from a winter one) - they aren't used in a desert. Rosomaks M1, used in Afghanistan, should be also green until end of 2009 - only then the main staff allowed to paint them sand ;) Brown and green camo 3543 isn't used.

From around 7/10 there was a new model introduced, with Qinetiq RPGnet side and rear screens (according to http://gdziewojsko.wordpress.com/wozy-bojowe/kto-rosomak/ , named Rosomak M1M) http://www.altair.com.pl/start-4555


208 Rosomak 1 - in fact, Rosomak 1 APC program was abandoned (after several years of trials different MG-armed unmanned turrets). But two models of a simple protected ring weapon mounting (with open roof), were developed instead. They have no special FC, nor RF, nor stabilizer. This unit can be changed to Rosomak M3, with heavy ring mounting (OSS-D) and additional armour, used from mid-2008. It should be sand 3569 (or plain green 3567)

It needs date correction of formations using 217 MRV APC class.

672, 673 Rosomak 1 - as above - they can be Rosomak M3 variants, without FC, RF, stabilizer and swimming ability. Armament of 40mm GL is correct (of course, Mk19 one, but this is the only model used).

Also Rosomak M3 from around 7/10 started to be fitted with side screens (assumed designation: Rosomak M3M)


There should be created also a second model of Rosomak, with OSS-M protected ring mounting (unnamed - I suggest Rosomak OSS-M). It should have light armour and swimming ability, used from mid-2008. Icon: plain green 3567. Two units should be created, with 12.7mm NSVT AAMG or 40mm AGL Mk19 (variant with 7.62mm PK can be omitted IMO). It has no SD.


680 Rosomak 2 - planned variant with Spike (and possibly new unmanned turret). It should be available from some 114. Vehicles probably will have no additional armour, but retain swimming ability (rather used for country defence, than for missions). Second unit with additional armour could be created anyway. Icon: 3548 plain green.

835 Rosomak R - 6-wheeled Rosomak is sure not used, most probably abandoned at all.
In formation 342 MRV Rec Sec it can be replaced with normal 30-mm armed Rosomak APC.

Regards
Michal

[Pibwl]

Rest:

232 Ammo Truck - better picture is 29388 - Polish modern Jelcz.

236 WZT-1 - as a standard, it has no dozer - this is ARV, not engineer tank. Useless IMO.

237 WZT-2 - commissioned in 1979 (now 1/78) [Poligon 5/2010]

238 WZT-3 - commissioned in 1989 (now 1/105) [Poligon 5/2010 and others]. Armour of this ARRV should be definitely no better, than basic T-72M tank (#16), if not worse. AAMG should be 017 NSVT. Full name (rarely used though) is WZT-3 Bizon. Correct picture is 29531 (confused with MID). It might have 3 or 4 SD (now 2) - it has 12 tubes.

239 IWT - only 5 prototypes were made around 1976 [Poligon 5/2010] and used for a short time. Full name is IWT Klon. Might be removed - or made available until end of 1980s at best, with radio 1 or 3.

240 MID (engineer tank) - armour should be definitely no better, than basic T-72M tank (#16), if not worse. AAMG should be 017 NSVT. Correct picture is 29383 (confused with WZT-3). Full name (rarely used) is MID Bizon-S. Used in limited numbers from 1998 or even earlier (1/08) - should have radio 91 [Raport 10/98]
In a free time, there could be created new icon for MID and future WZT-4, with a crane on the right.

BTW: MID-M variant, with .50 AAMG, should be also used by Malaysia from 2009.

241 T-34/85 WPT (ammo carrier) - it was ARRV, not supposed as ammo carrier, and without much room for ammo. Anyway, proper name is WPT-34 and they were produced only from mid-60s (now: 1/50) [Poligon 5/2010]. To be removed IMO - useless.

243 Headquarters - should be rather armed with general issue 008 rifle, not SMG - and be available until 120 (or until next unit)

244 Headquarters - wz.89 Onyks SMG wasn't adopted to service. Should be armed with general issue 029 AKM(S) rifle, and be available from some 1965 (now: 1/90).

245 Headquarters - it should have general issue 028 Beryl rifle - Beryl SMG wasn't widely adopted.

249 Crew - better picture is 14249 (TT, used until 1970s, instead of some German one)

280 Formoza Navy SF - in fact, frogmen special unit, nicknamed Formoza (later it became an official name), was created in 1976. First unit (might be this one) should use ordinary 029 AKM(S) rifle, especially, that Onyks SMG wasn't adopted.

283 Formoza Navy SF - wz.2003 LMG wasn't commissioned - it was to be a Polish equivalent of Minimi. In fact, redundant unit because of 282. Wz.2003 LMG might be replaced in weapons file with Minimi Para, used by special forces, but I don't know if it makes sense, considering its narrow usage. In that case, in other units wz.2003 LMG should be replaced with 16 UKM-2000 LMG

290 Special Forces - early Special Forces would sure use 006 SMG instead of a bolt rifle. RPG-2 was used only from 1953 - earlier there were grenades only. Next unit 291 could be made available from 1953, and P-27 Pancerovka (briefly used) should be replaced with RPG-2

300 Rifle Section - Panzerfaust were very scarse, not used in infantry sections [Poligon 2/2011]. Should be replaced with AT grenades.

305 Cavalry Section - primary armament should be probably PPSh SMG #09, not LMG :) I don't think, that cavalry sections carried 7-feet-long PTRD on horses... (AT grenades rather)

314, 315 Mech Rifle Sec - P-27 should be replaced with standard RPG-2.

317 Rifle Section - it seems improbable, that in 55-79 there would exist regular infantry sections without LMG (there were plenty of them, especially from beginning of 1950s.)

329 Rifle Section - AFAIK in 1980-99 there doesn't exist regular infantry without LMG in section. In all units 328-331 there should be 013 PKM LMG.

336 Rifle Section - definitely there doesn't exist in 100-120 regular infantry without LMG in a section. In all units 325-338 there should be 016 UKM-2000 LMG.

I have no time now to check precisely structure of infantry platoons in the game, but sections without LMG should be definitely wiped out.

360 Naval Infantry - was created in 1951 (now 1/55) [Raport 8/07] - needs change in formation.

365 Pe-2 Peszka - more precise name is Pe-2FT Peszka (though Peszka is informal and might be left out). Ithas too much load - it could carry 10x 100 kg OR 4x250 bombs (now: 6x100, 4x250) - max 1000 kg.
It could be fighter-bomber as well - in fact it was a dive bomber. It would have 1x #175 12.7mm UBS and 1x #174 7.62mm then.

366, 367 Il-28 - delivered in 10/52 (operational from some 1/53), used only until 77. Needs change of formation's last date.

368, 374 Su-20MK - name was just Su-20 (Su-17MK was Russian designation). Withdrawn in 2/97. Proper picture of the Polish Su-20 is 29126 (now it's Su-22)

376 B10 RCL HE - used from 1/55 (1/50) until 1980s (12/99)

378 SPG9 RCL HE - apparently still in service, possibly until 120 (12/94). Better rifle is 029 AKM(S)

380 82mm Vasilek - it's a detail, but better icon seems 54.

400 White Scout Car - PTRD ATR might have been used on some vehicles during the war, but it was withdrawn from the Polish service by 1948 (see #370). Most probable weapon is just one DT AAMG - DShK was quite bulky weapon and it didn't automatically replace .50 Browning on vehicles.

401 BA-64 in 12/54 there were 97 BA-64 in inventory - I doubt if they were withdrawn that month. A weapon had high elevation - #242 AAMG could be more approproiate (for all countries). Most have no radio.

[Pibwl]

400 White Scout Car - PTRD ATR might have been used on some vehicles during the war, but it was withdrawn from the Polish service by 1948 (see #370). Most probable weapon is just one DT AAMG - DShK was quite bulky weapon and it didn't automatically replace .50 Browning on vehicles.

401 BA-64 in 12/54 there were 97 BA-64 in inventory - I doubt if they were withdrawn that month. A weapon had high elevation - #242 AAMG could be more approproiate (for all countries). Most have no radio.

400 White scout car - PTRD definitely wasn't vehicle's armament. I think I've seen one photo of a Soviet vehicle with PTRD, but anyway, it wasn't a fixed weapon, only carried by the crew (most Soviet photos shows original American MGs). It's hard to say, what armament Polish vehicles had. They were given by the Soviets during the war and initially they sure had original .50 and .30 MGs - the question is, whether they were replaced with something more typical before withdrawal. If so, it would rather be DT AAMG only.
There were used few vehicles in Poland after the war (4 are known), and most probably 12/50 is closer to real ending date (now 12/54). Carry capacity should be 106 (108) (enough for a scout section).

401 BA-64 - withdrawn by the end of 1955 (12/54).

397 Mk 1 - pretty OK.

398 SPW 251/10a - I believe, that armament should be DT AAMG only, and it should be renamed to ordinary SdKfz 251/1. There could be few vehicles with tapering bore SpzB captured and used in combat during the war (two are known - although according to newer source, they were SdKfz-250/11). But it is doubtful, if they were used with such unique armament after the war (these two vehicles are known to be used until autumn 1945). Most captured SdKfz-251, used after the war, were sure MG-armed (if they had any fixed weapon at all), especially, that they were used to anti-partisan duties. They were not numerous BTW - probably no more, than dozen. Information on this subject is unfortunately scarce.
They were used used at least until some 1951 (now 12/48) by internal security units (fighting against Ukrainian nationalists). Crew should be 2 and capacity 110 or 111. Better picture (and without German crosses) is 29092.

There's no information how they were named - probably not under German military designation (which might have been not known anyway). IMHO "Hanomag Hkl 6p" name would be probable, from manufacturer's plates.

I think, that this vehicle (along with M2 halftracks, mentioned further), should be classified as halftrack APC rather - new formations of 1 halftrack APC or 2 or 4 APCs should be created, until some 1958 (to be utilized according to player needs).

399 SPW 250/10 - usage of SdKfz 250 post-war isn't known, though it's probable in internal security forces - maybe even until end of 1949-50.
MG armament is more probable, though 37mm gun can't be excluded (there is one wartime photo - 29095 - of such gun-armed vehicle, used by the Poles). Carry capacity should be 104 (106) (enough for a scout section).
IMHO more probable name might be Demag D7p

724 M3A1 - in fact, I can't see substantial differences from 400 White Scout Car. It's the same vehicle - one is redundant.

There should be added instead M2 Halftrack - a limited number used as APC by internal security forces until end of 1950s (some 1958) (along with SU-57 and M17 SP-guns with removed armament). Armament might be DT AAMG.

Regards
Michal

[Pibwl]

There should be added instead M2 Halftrack - a limited number used as APC by internal security forces until end of 1950s (some 1958) (along with SU-57 and M17 SP-guns with removed armament). Armament might be DT AAMG.


It should be rather named just Halftrack, with carry capacity 111 or so (the Soviets received M2, M5 and M9).

Michal

[Pibwl]

Closing to an end:

404 BRM-1D - correct Polish designation of Russian BRM-1K is BWR-1D. Ammunition for gun should probably be redistributed (some 10 HE, 10 Heat). It has 6-tube SD (now:0). Vision and RF should be higher - it's equipped with GSR and laser RF. Crew is 4 (2) and carry is only 2 (112) - could be 3+3 to carry a scout section. Radio should be 91 (less popular, than BRDM-2). Better icon is 7460 (BMP-2) - it has similar larger two-men turret (winter 7465, desert 1707). [source: nTW 1/2001, Tekhnika i Vooruzhenie 4/2001]

There should be also added BWR-1S Svatava (Czech BPzV) - same data, but icon of ordinary BMP-1 (3474 camo, 1703 winter, 1698 desert). Ammo: 76 (probably half HE and Heat), added #145 Malutka with 7 missiles. Crew/carry 3+3. Used from some 1991.


405, 406 MT-LB/120, MT-LB Vasilek - there weren't any SP-mortars used by the Polish Army so far.

410 BTR-40 - apparently this one should be class Scout vehicle (class Gun APC - identical unit is #51). Should be used until some 1965 (now: 12/60) (especially, that BRDM-1 should be available from 1963 and it would make a gap)

411 BRDM-1 (scout veh.) - only armament should be SGMB AAMG (as unit #52). Better name is just BRDM. Used from 1963 (now: 1/61) [Poligon 3/2010] until no later, than some 1985 (12/90)

412 BRDM-2 (Scout veh.) - used from 1966 until now - I guess until 1/115 at least (now: 1/67-12/105) [Poligon 3/2010].
Soviet BRDM-2s in that period (#698, 699) have vision 15 (this one 20). In fact, it has no night gun sights at all [confirmed in Raport 9/2010], maybe only driver's IR vision.


414 IS-IIm1944 - correct name is just IS-2 (IS-2m eventually). "1944" wasn't official and is redundant. Ammo was 14/14, according to J. Kajetanowicz's book (now 8/20).

417 TOPAS-2AP - reportedly used until 1994 (12/93). Correct pic 29085

Formation #85 needs change of last date according to this unit - and first date: 1963 according to my suggestions on unit 054 OT-62 (TOPAS). I've suggested before to create naval infantry formations in 1963-1991, with Heavy amphibs.

703 Marynarka TOPAS - this unit is redundant - same as unit above, with different icon. Name makes no sense (Navy Topas) - TOPAS APC weren't used by the Navy, and all were used by landing units.

420 T-70m - there was no "m" used in practice (theoretically it was T-70M version, introduced soon after production's beginning). Withdrawn from the Polish Army in 5/49 (now:12/55) [Poligon 3/2010] (needs change in formation 66 as last unit)

421 T-60 - only 3 vehicles used for training - and not clear, if used after 1945. To be removed IMO.

423 RBS-23 SAM - fiction. To be removed.

425 Lisunov Li-2 - considering, that first Polish paratroop units were created in 1959, it's better to replace it with more modern Il-14T, used for this purpose in Poland (540 from Russian OOB, icon 4578) - until mid-70s. Polish picture is 29082.

426 Antonov An-26 - introduced in 1972 (now 1/68). It should be just An-26 (designer names weren't officially used as a part of name of Soviet aircraft)

427 Antonov An-26 - withdrawn in 1/109 (12/120)

430 BTR-40u - used from 1/55 until no later, than mid-70s (1/53-12/99). Icon should be open 2927

432 GAZ Jeep - correct pic is 41063 (UAZ in fact)

433, 434 UAZ-69 Trzmiel - first date 1/60 is impossible, since it was commissioned in the USSR in 8/60 (http://vadimvswar.narod.ru/ALL_OUT/TiVOut9801/PturR/PturR003.htm ). Realistic earliest date will be some 1962. Same date for #030 BRDM-1 Trzmiel and 082 formation.

Besides, it should be GAZ-69 Trzmiel, and it was used apparently in small numbers (radio 91 - basic was BRDM-mounted) - no later, than until mid-70s. One unit should be enough. It should have no armour at all.

439 Rys-Azalia AOP - Ryś wasn't introduced so far. Besides, Azalia wouldn't be FO vehicle, but artillery command vehicle.

440 BWP-2 - better icon is camouflaged 1712 (only before sale they were repainted green) [Poligon 6/2010]. Withdrawn already in mid-94 (12/94). It should have SD 2 (1) - 6 tubes.


445 Ski Sniper - more proper pic is 41019 (Mosin), instead of some rifle unused in Poland.

448 Lowcza-3 AOP - this isn't FO vehicle, but AA unit's command vehicle.

450 Ski Scouts - RPG-2 wasn't used that early - should be AT grenades.

451 Ski Scouts - P-27 wasn't widely used - better to be replaced with 015 RPG-2.

452 Ski Scouts - definitely main weapon would be general issue 008 AK rifle, not SMG, especially PM63.

453 Ski Scouts - wz.89 Onyks wasn't adopted. Should be just 029 AKM(S) rifle.

455 SKOT-1A AOP - proper designation of artillery command vehicle is SKOT R-2AM - but it's used only from 1986 [Polish Military Equipment] (now: 1/65). Not clear, if it's AOP vehicle though.

465 Ski Riflemen - Carl Gustaf is very rare weapon, not used in sections. Should be just RPG-7 or its variant.

473 Para Engineers - Onyks SMG should be replaced with Tantal rifle 007.

477, 478 PKMS MMG [2] - correct pic is 45377. Later one should be used until 120 (won't be wiped out)

479 UKM MMG [2] - pic as above

482 Spike ATGM (para) - crew is 3 (now: 2) (it's sure needed to carry launcher and 4 missiles)

483, 484 Factoria ATGM (para) - Faktoria was never used in Poland. To be removed.

485 B10 Recoilless (para-RR) - used only in around 1955-1979 (see unit #68) (now 55-99). Secondary weapon should be 008 AKM or 006 SMG. Standard crew was 3 men (like unit 68)

Date change might interfere with form. 267 Para Co [A] - but the paras were used in Poland from 1959 anyway.

486 SPG9 Recoilless (para-RR) - apparently still in service in 2009 - possibly until 120 (12/94). According to some sources, used from 1968 (now 71). Standard crew is 4 men (now 2) - I don't think that the paras would differ.

Standard SPG-9 had vision=0 - there was version SPG-9N with IR sights.

487 C Gustaf RCL - used by airmobile forces only from 2001 (comment for unit 223)

488, 489 Malutka-2 ATGM - definitely not used.

490 Para Fagot ATGM - rifle should be changed to 007 wz.88 - wz.89 Onyks wasn't adopted.

495-499 Abn Observer - maybe a better name would be Para Observer? I had to guess what is "Abn".

495 Abn Observer (50-59) - first Polish paratroop units were created in 1959 only. Anyway, it should have 006 SMG instead of bolt rifle.

496 Abn Observer (60-89) - if the unit above is removed, it should be available from 6/59 (creation of Polish paratroop division) or 1/60.
Possibly better armament for a para fwd observer is 234 SMG

497 Abn Observer - wz.89 Onyks should be changed to 007 wz.88

Regards
Michal

[Pibwl]

Mortars...

507 60mm Mortar Sec - there weren't any 60 mm mortars in Poland before 2001 - so it should be removed (see below).

508 60mm Mortar Sec - introduced only in 2001 (now 1/70) [http://www.militarium.net/viewart.php?aid=173 and other sorces].
It would need changes in formations 314 and 270. Maybe 270 should be available from 2001, and ending date of 269 should be extended.
According to Polish MoD page, standard unit of ammo is 40 (now 60).
82mm mortars were earlier used by the Polish paras (weight 56 kg), but I don't know in what formations.

As for weapon #030 60mm LM-60D Mtr - according to MoD page and other Polish sources max range is only 2329 m (47) - now: 60.

511 82mm Mortar Sec - crew's weapon in this period should be 06 SMG instead of bolt rifle (earlier it would be probable as well)

513 82mm Mortar Sec - crew's weapon should be Beryl rifle (028) instead of Beryl SMG (limited use).

515 2x120mm Mortars - might as well be armed with #42 120mm M43 Mtr - both were used from the beginning, and have essentially the same specs. Weapon #246 PM obr38 is redundant then (it has too small min. range (3) - it should be 450-460m, just like #42). Better picture is 29425 - current is some Western mortar with integral wheels.

516 2x120mm Mortars - as above. Crew's weapon in this period should be 06 SMG instead of bolt rifle (earlier it would be probable as well)

517 2x120mm Mortars - standard crew's weapon in this period should be general issue AKMS (029), not SMG. Better picture is 29425. It should be used until 115-120 - there are no newer mortars as for now (now: 12/99)

520 2x160mm Mortars - used only from 1951 (1/46), according to J. Kajetanowicz. Crew's weapon should be 06 SMG in that period.

It would need changes in form. 209 - first date 1951, last - 1979? (see below)

521 2x160mm Mortars - crew's weapon should be 06 SMG

523 2x160mm Mortars - they sure weren't used in that period (90-96) - withdrawn well before this date, but I have no closer info. Probably late 1970s.

525 2x120mm Mortars - there are no new 120mm mortars as for now - possible date is 2013 (there is a new mortar M120 developed http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/HSW_M120 but not produced so far). Icon should be 67, pic - 29425.

Weapon 164 120mm M120 Mtr has too small min range (4) - it should be 9-10 (480 m)

527 120mmM43 Mortar - standard crew's weapon is general issue AKMS (029), not SMG (what is confirmed by photos). Picture should be 29425 (now it's 160mm).

528 120mmM43 Mortar - crew's weapon should be Beryl rifle (028) instead of limited issue Beryl SMG. It should be available until 115 at least (now 12/99). Picture should be 29425 (now it's 160mm).

529 120mmM120 Mort - there are no new 120mm mortars as for now - see notes for #525 - possible date 2013.

There could be added 120mm 2B11 mortar (weapon no 44) used in limited quantity (radio 91) from 1984. Secondary weapon should be AKMS (29), crew 6 men.

533 Observer Team - redundant unit - Onyks SMG wasn't used.

Michal

[Pibwl]

230 Ammo truck - icon of early ammo truck should be eg. 3026, with long nose.

540 76.2mm obr27 IG - not used in Poland. It should be 76.2mm AP-43 IG in fact (Soviet obr.1943). Picture: 29438. Withdrawn by 1954 (now: 12/49)

Weapon 236 should be changed to AP-43 or M.43 gun - range 4200 m only.

542 Komsolets - never used in Poland - should be changed to Ja-12 tractor

Specifications would be similar, but speed up to 38 km/h, picture - 29395, some trucklike icon, used 1946 - mid-1960s.

It's worth to add also tractors:
- Polish built Mazur D-350 - specifications similar, speed up to 53 km/h, picture - 29390, some trucklike icon, used 1961 - mid-80s?
- ATS-59 - unit 342 from Finland's OOB (though it's worth to find other icon with truck long nose), used from 1965?-120.

543 Truck - better picture is 29170 Ural truck - 4x2 trucks like 11067 weren't used in Poland, especially as artillery tractors. Better icon, with long nose, is 3026,

550 SU-57 - correct picture is 29041 (current one is Israeli improvised vehicle). There were few vehicles left after the war (probably 5), and most probably, as SP-guns they were used no longer, than some 1948, especially, that they fired not typical American ammo. Magnuski wrote, that "some" vehicles were converted to ordinary halftrack APC (used by internal security forces), but I think, that considering their small number and ammo issue, all were converted, or at least they weren't operational as SP-guns.

551 85mm AT-Gun - standard weapon of gunners in that period was AKMS rifle (#29), not SMG.

553 BRDM-2 Konkurs - in fact, there shouldn't be difference from unit 34. They differ in radio, but both are equally rare. See comments for unit 34. If we keep unit 34 only, it should be available until 120.

554 85mm AT-Gun+ - crew's weapon as 551. Maybe better name would be "85mm AT-Gun (N)" (N for night) - the gun with night sights was designated D-44N.

Night vision for 85mm gun was introduced in mid-60s (now it's 1/70) - maybe there should be created such earlier unit, with weapon like unit #82.

562 SA-4 Ganef - was to be withdrawn in 6/111 (now 12/120) [Raport 05/2011]. Proper name is 2K11 Krug

564, 569 SA-3 Neva SC - should be S-125 Newa-SC (Polish modernization)

584 PILO Dzik - precisely, Dzik 2 (PILO abbreviation is not used commonly - it means Intervention Vehicle Lightly Armoured or something like this, Dzik means wild boar). Used from 8/105 at best (now 1/105) [nTW 7/2005]

586 Jenot - prototype only, with little chance to be produced.

590 Lockheed C-130K - there are used only C-130E, first delivered in 3/09 (now 1/03) (plans to buy C-130K were abandoned) [nTW 4/09]

591 CASA 295 - precisely CASA C-295M. First delivered in 8/03 (now 1/03). It can carry 73 passengers, BUT only 46 paratroops (now carry=178) [nTW 4/09]

608 Osa AMRAAM - science-fiction as for now

609 SA-8 Osa Sting, 610 SA-8 Osa-AKM - in fact, both should be the same, but I don't know which data is closer to truth - maybe radar 110. Correct name is Osa-AKM-P1 (aka Zadlo, export name Sting). Starting date 1/105 is better. It also received laser RF (I don't know if there's a use in SP-SAM, but it has RF 8 now).

611 Loara SP-SAM - in plans only, with slight chance even to reach prototype stage.

612 Poprad - starting date should be mid-2011 (1/105). New chassis Zubr-P is lightly armoured (survivability will be more than 1) - see photo http://www.magnum-x.pl/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1421&catid=4&Itemid=12
It has laser RF and some FC system. It should use final version of Grom missiles (see comments for 205 Grom team). Speed is sure more, than 20, but I found no specific data (some 80-90 km/h at least).

613 Irbis-Poprad - abandoned. I don't recall even a prototype. All Poprads will be lightly armoured (see above)

Michal

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

With a C3 P10 the Patria AMV/Polish ROSOMAK (WOLVERINE) is a very capable APC. The report of the RPG-7 survivability appear to true, I've found several refs to support one was hit in Afghanistan in 2008 three times by RPG-7's, survived, returned fire and returned to base on it's own power the first ref also eludes to this, it should be noted there are a handful of other similar reports of the same type with less hits. The SPIKE-LR version does appear to be stalled and does carry a standard ring mounted 12.7mm but the Polish source below also indicates it carries "ppk two sections of SPIKE-LR on board" (MANPADS?). Majority of 12.7mm systems appear to be ROWS as ELBIT won a huge contract to supply them in particular to the M1 versions from the source below after ref one. Hopefully all refs after number one stay in the translated mode as the site offers an English version option.
http://www.military-today.com/apc/patria_amv.htm
http://www.altair.com.pl/start-4555
http://www.altair.com.pl/start-5063
http://www.armyrecognition.com/italy_italian_heavy_light_weapons_army_military/hitfist_25_30_mm_turret_infantry_fighting_vehicle_ oto_melara_technical_data_sheet_specifications.htm l
http://www.armyrecognition.com/2008_mois/february_2008_information_news_about_military_equi pment_armoured_army_world_worldwide_countries.html

With the last ref under the UAE 1/2 way down the article as of 2/2008 it was the ONLY vehicle of it's type to pass the ARMSCOR very demanding tests. Much as I hate over protected vehicles like ARJUN which was by accident, I hate to arbitrarily see the protection of one be reduced without some further research.

And an update on the ANDERS 120mm. ANDERS is still a developmental vehicle their is some speculation the Philippine Government might be interested in the 120mm or 105mm versions with an ATGW.
http://www.altair.com.pl/start-5247

Regards,
Pat

[Pibwl]

283 Formoza Navy SF - wz.2003 LMG wasn't commissioned - it was to be a Polish equivalent of Minimi. In fact, redundant unit because of 282. Wz.2003 LMG might be replaced in weapons file with Minimi Para, used by special forces, but I don't know if it makes sense, considering its narrow usage. In that case, in other units wz.2003 LMG should be replaced with 16 UKM-2000 LMG


I didn't notice there was already #158 Minimi in weapons - it should replace wz.2003 in this unit (possibly wz.2003 would be replaced with Negev in weapons file, but the future will show).


562 SA-4 Ganef - was to be withdrawn in 6/111 (now 12/120) [Raport 05/2011]. Proper name is 2K11 Krug


Modernized Krug was introduced around 2001 (now 1/105) [source: Raport 10/2000]


564, 569 SA-3 Neva SC - should be S-125 Newa-SC (Polish modernization)


564, 569 SA-3 Neva SC - first serial systems were delivered in 1999 (now 1/92) [source: Raport 7/1999]. Unit 564 should be IMO removed - Newa SC had modified missiles and radar from the beginning.

However, weapon #134 SA3 Neva SC SAM needs altering. It should be improved comparing with missile SA-3 (#136), while it is made worse in the game (smaller warhead, penetration 12 vs 60, longer min range, shorter range). In fact, missiles remained the same, but should have improved accuracy due to replacing lamp computers with modern units in control stations (less prone to jamming).

563 SA-6 Gainful - proper name 2K12 Kub. Modernized Kub was introduced in mid-1999 (now: 1/105) [Raport 10/1999]

Michal

[Pibwl]

The SPIKE-LR version does appear to be stalled and does carry a standard ring mounted 12.7mm but the Polish source below also indicates it carries "ppk two sections of SPIKE-LR on board" (MANPADS?). Majority of 12.7mm systems appear to be ROWS as ELBIT won a huge contract to supply them in particular to the M1 versions from the source below after ref one.

Spike sections are indeed transported inside Rosomak-S variant - I didn't mention this one, because it may be covered by APC variants (with 12.7mm or AGL). There is however no firm information, if Spike-carrying vehicles are armed at all...

Speaking of Elbit, you mean unmanned turrets 12.7mm?... In 2005 Rafael RCWS-127 Mini Samson wond a tender, but it was cancelled. Another tender was won in 2006 by OTO Mellera Hitrole, but it was cancelled as well. In 2007, the Polish Army decided to quit from unmanned turrets - and AFAIK this is actual state.

Michal

[Pibwl]

570 BRDM-2M96i - armament should be #80 14.5mm TMG, not 12.7. I'm afraid this vehicle should have no game-relevant distinctions from BRDM-2 (cut-off side doors, newer engine, same armament and poor vision devices, no SD) - maybe only bigger survivability due to better firefighting system.

571 BRDM-2B Zbik B - precisely BRDM-2M97B Zbik or just BRDM-2 Zbik-B (not BRDM-2B) - introduced around 9/1998 (now 1/103). Armament is 12.7mm WKM-B TMG, not AAMG. It's not clear, if serial vehicles use Fagot ATGM - there should be also second variant available, without Fagot (in both classes: Scout veh. and Gun APC). Vision should be 30 (20). Speed is 100 km/h. Its SD are in fact VIRSS, with automatic laser warning Obra system [Raport 8/1999]

I suggest to create 12.7mm WKM-B TMG in a place of #67 DShK CMG - not existing as CMG in Poland, used only by unit 443 MT-LBu 1W15+, which shouldn't use such weapon, especially from 2000 (I'll deal closer with MTLBu's in next season). As for now, unit 443 could use NSVT AAMG rather.

575 BRDM-2M97 - to be removed - Factoria ATGM is not used in Poland. Or to be changed to variant with no ATGM. Proper pic is 45419 or 29282, other comments as above.

576 BRDM-2B Zbik B - as #571 (different class)

577 BRDM-2 Zbik-A - precisely BRDM-2M97A Zbik or BRDM-2 Zbik-A. AFAIK, there still exist only 1 vehicle, although it was commissioned... It could be, with radio 3. Correct icon is 2319, carry=104, SD 2 are VIRSS.

578 BRDM-2 Szakal - better picture is 29281 (it has old turret - http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:MSPO2004_PICT0097_Szakal.JPG ) Precisely, it's BRDM-2M96ik model. It should have 12.7mm WKM-B TMG (not AAMG). No SD.

579 BRDM-2 Szakal+ - only a demonstrator with bar armour, abandoned - http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:MSPO2004_PICT0130_Szakal%2B.JPG

We'll be finishing soon... I'm tired as well ;)

Regards
Michal

[DRG]

We'll be finishing soon...




I sincerely hope so.......

Don

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Rosomak does have the OTO MARELA HITFIST turret. Also looks like the SPIKE-LR as well though it seems in very limited numbers.
http://www.rafael.co.il/marketing/SIP_STORAGE/FILES/6/606.pdf
http://articles.janes.com/articles/Janes-Defence-Weekly-2005/First-Rosomaks-reach-Polish-units.html
http://www.bumar.com/en/news/2011/02/bumar-signed-a-contract-with-the-italian-holding-finmeccanica/

As far as I can tell the ELBIT contract did go through for the 12.7mm ROTS.

Regards,
Pat

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Alright found this site that seems to tie up all the loose ends out there again from POLAND. SPIKE-LR not until maybe 2013 or Rafeal ATGW. Looks like Elbit deal did fall through so yes 12.7mm or 40mm AGL on ring mounted turrets.
Never be afraid to say your mistaken out here. ;)
Seems to be the most through on Polish ROSOMAK versions.
http://gdziewojsko.wordpress.com/wozy-bojowe/kto-rosomak/
You will have to use your GOOGLE or other translator-sorry-thought it might save the translated version I saved.


Regards,
Pat

[Pibwl]

The rest

620 57mm S-60M AAG - improved fire control system Umbrella for S-60 gun batteries was introduced in 1999 (now 1/106) [Raport 6/98, 7/99] (in fact, FCS is fitted in a special vehicle, not individual guns, which are linked). It has also laser RF. Radio should be 90. Rifle should be 029 AKM

623 12.7 NSWT AAMG - unit's name should be NSW (NSWT is tank version). Weapon should be accordingly 017 NSVT, not WKM-B

624 25mm AA-Gun - J.Kajetanowicz's book on Polish Army 1945-60 doesn't mention 25mm AA gun among used weapons - basic was 37mm (25mm was used during the war).

630 Para Support - to be removed. C.Gustav wasn't used by airmobile units by 2000-2001 (and Onyks SMG is wrong). Formation 286 needs date change to 1/100

637 Metis Para ATGM - Onyks rifle should be changed to 007 wz.88

638 Metis Para ATGM - probably used until 120 (115)

652 IS-3 - only 2 were used, and not in combat units. At least they should have radio code 3. Ammo should be 14 HE, 14 AP.

657 IS-85 - aren't mentioned in sources as used in Poland after the war. Possibly used in training units only, if at all. To be removed IMO.

658 IS-IIm1944(cs) - name should be just IS-2 (cs). Heat ammo should be changed to AP (there was no Heat)

659 IS-IIm1944 - it's supposed to be later variant of IS-2 with heat ammo, but such ammo wasn't used. Thus this seems redundant because of unit 414.
Maybe one of them should have anti-tank ammo load (say 8/20, like original unit 414 - although such load doesn't seem to be used in practice), and the other - 14/14 (both used from 1946 then).
Or it could be obsolete tank in 1961- around 1964

683 Irbis - not used, proposal only. To keep formation unchanged, I suggest to extend 843 BTR-60PB to 120.

697 PZL-104 Wilga - used in the air force from 1972 (1/66) (rather not in AOP role though)

699 BAW (class: scout vehicle) - hard to say, what it should be. Probably GAZ-46 MAW (BAW was big Zil-485) (there was in fact once a picture of MAW incorrectly attributed as BAW in Polish military press from the 80s, when precise names were still treated much as a secret).
Picture probably shows some Russian prototype, bigger than MAW http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GAZ_46 . Anyway, MAW was used from mid 1950s until no later, than end of 1970s (now:1/69 - 12/110). It carried only 1+5 persons, had no fixed armament and had max speed of 95 km/h (according to Russian Tekhnika i Vooruzhenie)

To be added: real BAW - Zil-485 from #185 in a Russian OOB, but correct picture is 29202, Lift Capacity should be 125 (it had a rear ramp), speed was 65 km/h and 10 km/h on water. It was used from late 1950s until end of 1970s.

704 SU-76M - ammo load should be 31 HE, 19 AP, 10 according to J. Kajetanowicz. Maybe SMG could be added for self-defence? (there were carried one or two).

705 SU-85m - name should be just SU-85. It had no AAMG. Ammo should be 20 HE, 28 AP (probably including some Sabot - maybe 8?). No Heat were used. It has too much rounds in the game - should be 48 (56). Radio code should be 0 (1) - common vehicles. Used until 1961 at least (12/59)

706 PTS-M - no armour, speed on land only 42 km/h, on water only 10 [Russian Tekhnika i Vooruzhenie 10/2001].

707, 708 K61 - no armour, speed on land only 36 km/h, on water only 10 [source as above].

709 JSU-122 - correct name is ISU-122. According to all Russian sources, ammunition was only 30 (15 AP at best) - now 40 (J. Kajetanowicz's book alone quotes 36.)
Weapon #188 could be changed to identical #94 - it's the only user of 188, which is otherwise redundant (in fact, basic ISU-122 gun should be named A-19S, but it had the same performance, as D-25T, only lower ROF due to other breech design, and such naming issue might be omitted).
Better picture (also of Polish vehicle) seems 89.

710 JSU-122s - correct name is ISU-122S. Ammunition - as above. Both units should differ in ROF only - now they have 5, while ISU-122 in Russian OOB has 6, so ISU-122S should have 6
(in fact, basic ISU-122 might have even less - practical to 2.5 RPM, but it would demand checking all ISU-122 users in the game, if they have ISU-122, or ISU-122S).

723 Tarpan Rys - I'm not sure if went behind prototype stage (I'll check in the future), but it had DShK AAMG instead of WKM-B

There should be added similar vehicle Skorpion 3 - same data, used from 11/04 in Iraq, armed with #100 7.62mm PKT AAMG, very lightly armoured in some parts (0/1/0/0/1/1/0 ?)
photos: http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?26476-Polish-4x4-vehicle-Honker-Skorpion-3

725 MB 290 GD - used as unarmed utility vehicle only, not armed scout vehicle. Years ago there was armed prototype Jeż presented, but it wasn't developed. Could be changed to utility vehicle or replaced with mentioned Skorpion 3.

735 AGL Nest - possible use (with Mk19 GL) only from late 2007 (1/80) - as 097 unit.

746 Obluze Class - apart from the fact, that it was seagoing patrol craft, it seems, that somebody put 60mm OTO HVMS in weapons file in a place of twin 30 mm AK-230 AA gun, which should be correct armament for all ships. 60mm OTO HVMS is used only by prototype BWP-2000, thus it's useless.

749 MFP - it could transport medium tanks

851 Cougar HEV 6x6 - 4x4 are used, not 6x6 - from 11/09 (1/09) until some 114 (120 - they are only borrowed) [http://www.altair.com.pl/start-2199 ], armed with WKM-B AAMG?

Needs date change in formations.

There could be added another MRAPs:
- Maxx Pro Dash - from 3/11 - http://www.altair.com.pl/start-6049

- M-ATV Oshkosh - from mid-11? (such vehicle was destroyed by IED, killing 5 soldiers, in 12/11)

902 Earthen Bunker, 903 Concrete bunker - I have no idea what is MON-50 Mine. It has class 5 Light gun.

922 Star 944 Hiena - according to nTW 2/2005, plans of fitting trucks with armour were abandoned, and the Hiena, tested in Iraq, "will remain a single prototype".
Are we interested in ordinary trucks with armoured cabs? They were used from 2008.


That's all as for units.

Regards
Michal

[Pibwl]

Few misc comments on weapons and formations:

Weapons:

005 wz.89 Onyks SMG - short series was made, but it wasn't finally adopted. It could be replaced with PM-84P SMG (Uzi-like design, firing 9mm Para) - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PM-84_Glauberyt
It can substitute for Onyks in all units, from which Onyks hasn't been removed (until they are reviewed next time)

006 wz/43/52 SMG - correct name would be wz.43/52 SMG. But it's better to rename it PPS wz.43 SMG - it would cover both standard folding stock wz.43 and wooden stock wz.43/52 (horribly clumsy looking weapon).

007 wz.88/89 Tantal - correct name is only wz.88 Tantal (I don't know hence "89") - maybe better "wz.88 Tantal AR"

053 7.62 SGMT AAMG - Soviet designation of AAMG variant was SGMB.

033 7.62 SG43 MMG - maybe "7.62mm SG43 MMG", in accordance with others?

149 AT-2 Falanga-M1- useless

Unit 124 Mi-24D should use ordinary #147 9M17 Falanga (like in Russian OOB) instead of this one.

150 AT-2 Falanga-M - useless

167 9M120 Ataka - certainly useless

198 1000lb bomb - should be renamed 500 kg Bomb

216 98mm M98 Mortar - according to Polish sources and MoD page, it has range 400-7000 m (8-140 - now 2-92)

234 9mm PM63 SMG - it has specifications of a short rifle (range 4), while it was small and inefficient 9mm Makarov SMG. Range should be 2 and kill 4 (like Czech Skorpion) - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PM-63_RAK

241 76mm L51 obr36 - useless

Regards
Michal

[DRG]

198 1000lb bomb - should be renamed 500 kg Bomb



NO Michal it should be changed to a 500kg bomb because in the game there is a difference in HEK between a 1000 pound bomb and a 500 kg bomb and that change was made a week or so back the first time you brought up the issue.



053 7.62 SGMT AAMG - Soviet designation of AAMG variant was SGMB.


.......and that is the TENTH time this has been brought up un the last 3 months ( yep.... 9 times already in the "done" notes and now this time...10 total )

Now please......take a break and wait to see what the OOB in the patch looks like before commenting further.

Also.....I am well aware of the "useless" weapons, anyone who knows how to run the MOBHack database check utilities can find the unused weapons in the OOB. I can removed them or leave them alone, they have no affect on the game

Thank You


Don

[Pibwl]

Formations - just few.

012, 013 Heavy Tank Pl, Heavy Tank Co - heavy tank platoon had in fact only 2 tanks, company - 1 tank and 2 platoons (5 tanks).

014 SPG Platoon (3 SP-guns) -appeared from 1949. There should be also created:
- SPG Battery with 4 SP-guns (template unit 704 SU-76), in some 1946-1959
- SPG Battery with 5 SP-guns (template unit 705 SU-85), in some 1946-1955

085 Amphibian Pl - better name: Amphib APC Plt, to show their real role

252 Mec Bn Spt MRV - unit #207 Rosomak (IFV) should be replaced with #208 Rosomak (APC). In fact, each carries only 2 AT sections, not 3.

902-904 Gun Truck... - to be removed, with removal of Hiena.

That's all as for now.

Michal

[Marcello]

704 SU-76M - ammo load should be 31 HE, 19 AP, 10 according to J. Kajetanowicz. Maybe SMG could be added for self-defence? (there were carried one or two).

Fittings (ammo racks etc.) for a DP LMG were present, it was mounted on the cover rod or on the wall. I don't know how often it was used in practice though.

[Pibwl]

053 7.62 SGMT AAMG - Soviet designation of AAMG variant was SGMB.


.......and that is the TENTH time this has been brought up un the last 3 months ( yep.... 9 times already in the "done" notes and now this time...10 total )



Sorry


Now please......take a break and wait to see what the OOB in the patch looks like before commenting further.

Also.....I am well aware of the "useless" weapons, anyone who knows how to run the MOBHack database check utilities can find the unused weapons in the OOB. I can removed them or leave them alone, they have no affect on the game


Yes, I'm taking a break.

I was writing about useless weapons to mark, that they are used by units, that are still present(?) in the file, although they may be renationalized or whatever - and these weapons might be changed to something similar in the future.

Regards,
Michal

[DRG]

902-904 Gun Truck... - to be removed, with removal of Hiena.

That's all as for now.

Michal


Yes, Michal, of course Michal, that is what is done automatically when the only unit in that class is removed from an OOB. I do not need to be told this. It is redundant information.

I have to admit though this does top telling me when a unit should get a desert Icon........

:re:


Don

[DRG]

I was writing about useless weapons to mark, that they are used by units, that are still present(?) in the file, although they may be renationalized or whatever - and these weapons might be changed to something similar in the future.

Regards,
Michal

Yes Michal, but I can find the unused ones anytime I need a weapons slot by clicking one button and reading the list and , if I so desire I can remove all the unused one with a click of a button as well but I tend to avoid doing that until it's necessary because it can complicate correcting scenarios and I don't need any further complications this time around.


Don

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Well this was the first Polish only Thread I came to. I say now Ukraine, Poland and to a lesser extent Finland, Norway and Sweden (If still on track, they should be combining for their own version of "NATO" this Spring.) are going to be the countries to watch in Europe over the next decade in light of Russia's current activities. But the first two will be the most important not withstanding the truce just agreed to yesterday between Ukraine and Russia. Though I try to take a world view in equipment submissions especially for the unrepresented OOB's in the game I can't ignore world events and treads that I believe my record is built on. So I'm back to Poland with the following...
http://www.janes.com/article/48589/ploughing-through-progress-with-polish-rearmament-programme

Polish defense issues in depth are covered in this video interview for instance ALL T-72 tanks planned for removal by 2021 and PT-91 Series by I believe was said 2025. It's worth the view especially for the "Go Poland" group however this should not in of itself constitute a mad rush for OOB submissions or changes.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[dmnt]

Polish Rosomak (plain, M1) seems to have incorrect armour values. Rosomak, AFAIK, is the IFV version and not the APC version with the exception of M3 and ATGM versions. Incidentally, Finnish AMV Patria APC has the IFV configuration armor values and I believe they should be the other way around. Also Rosomak is too heavy to swim and probably has less speed than current one (36:2).

Rosomak, default (bump up for M1M which got additional steel-composite armor as well as the RPG nets)
steel: 12-4-3-5-4-4-2
heat: 15-10-5-15-10-10-2


AMV Patria APC:
steel: 5-4-3-5-4-3-2
heat: 0's

[dmnt]

Polish Rosomak (plain, M1) seems to have incorrect armour values. Rosomak, AFAIK, is the IFV version and not the APC version with the exception of M3 and ATGM versions. Incidentally, Finnish AMV Patria APC has the IFV configuration armor values and I believe they should be the other way around. Also Rosomak is too heavy to swim and probably has less speed than current one (36:2).


I have to backpedal on this an admit that I had wrong information.
Finnish AMV has 24.5 (metric) tn weight, Rosomaks up to 22.8 tn. Finnish variant this has better armor around it.

[DRG]

If I'd ignored your post the first time around I wouldn't have to change everything back now....... Consider that lesson now learned