WinSP MBT: Das Reich

[Wiking]

Yes, I'm aware of all your points Don. Hence why I'm discussing them in a mod thread and not making pointless requests of your time.

[DRG]

Well then please enlighten me......the OOB is full....the usefulness of an OOB that will not work with the existing scenarios is not even remotely worth the effort to create. It would involve hundreds of hours of work so a handful of people MIGHT DL it and MAYBE half that actually use it ( maybe .....) so what's the point of wishing for an OOB with the early 1942 camo patterns when there is NO place to put them even if they were built ?

The REASON the German OOB looks the way it does is due 18 of player requests like yours.....it could be described as "too complete"

[Wiking]

I apologize for bringing it up, I'll drop the subject.

[RecruitMonty]

I was more curious about what Monty would do if he were to tackle it.

I like the SPWW2 German OOB as is. It is detailed enough, I'd say. You've got all kinds of exotic stuff in there to play with. You even have Orpo, which is unique.

I'd only make cosmetic changes at best otherwise the in-game scenarios - the Germans are in a lot of them - would be ruined.

Sound work - like Cross' mod would be as advanced as I'd consider going.

Maybe implement some of the new icons if it was not too complicated. To be fair though I never saw the point. Don and Andy have it covered.

As a modder I prefer something totally new where I can be a bit more creative in my own right.

[DRG]

I'd only make cosmetic changes at best otherwise the in-game scenarios - the Germans are in a lot of them - would be ruined. .

over 500 scenarios have Germany as either P1 or P2 when the scenarios that are in the campaigns are added into the count.

[MarkSheppard]

Any news on DR? Or just busy with real life?

[scorpio_rocks]

Any news on DR? Or just busy with real life?

Expect something VERY soon... ;)

[RecruitMonty]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qvqIHVGoh4

Aus dem Führerhauptquartier, das Oberkommando der Wehrmacht gibt bekannt... ,

Version 1.0P (P for Public) of the "Das Reich" mod for WinSP:MBT is ready for download at the link below:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/m0dbj535745z3au/AAA0Pg45pFCovj5Vh7fgdE9Aa?dl=0

Read the "readme" and "info" files!

Enjoy!

[MarkSheppard]

Will get to work on the mirror, comrade!

[MarkSheppard]

Here's the mirror.

http://alternatewars.com/Games/SPanther/WinSP_DasReich1-0p.zip

[MarkSheppard]

Looking at the encyclopedia now, Monty; and very nice.

Random thought -- do you have a rough idea of how German technology in various areas developed from the late 1940s in your timeline?

[MarkSheppard]

One area I'm curious about is, what's the post-War German Navy?

I assume some variation of the Z-Plan is completed in this universe; and that the resultant German fleet is semi-modernized post-war with modern technologies in the same way that the US Navy and Soviet Navy modernized their WWII and immediate post war heavy warships with missile technologies.

So figure:

Bismarck (25 years old in August 1965)
Tirpitz (25 years old in February 1966)
Friedrich der Grosse (H-39 Schlachtschiff H) (commissioned Sep 1943, 25 years old Aug 1968)
Hindenburg (H-39 Schlachtschiff J) (commissioned Nov 1943, 25 years old Oct 1968)
Goeben (H-39 Schlachtschiff K) (commissioned Feb 1944, 25 years old Feb 1969)

Schl. H and J were actually laid down in 1939, while K was also ordered in 1939.

But beyond that, I can't see a rationale for major battleship construction, as air power will quickly become apparent as the new dominant force at sea.

So I figure that in the 1950s, the Germans BBGize the three newest ships, while keeping Bismarck and Tirpitz as "expendable" shore bombardment ships.

1950s conversions were studied by the US for the Iowas, and the French for the Jean Bart. Essentially what was proposed was that half the main armament was stripped and replaced with a new superstructure accommodating the new missile directors and launchers.

But by the mid 1960s, all of the ships are going to be approaching 25 years old; about the same age for example, a World War I battleship commissioned 1916 would have been in 1941; and this means their steam plants would be old and creaky.

A big reason the battleships stayed on for so long in the US in mothballs was because of the USMC and their requirement for heavy naval gun support -- are the German Marines going to have that political influence?

[RecruitMonty]

I assume some variation of the Z-Plan is completed in this universe; and that the resultant German fleet is semi-modernized post-war with modern technologies in the same way that the US Navy and Soviet Navy modernized their WWII and immediate post war heavy warships with missile technologies.


Correct. Although the Kriegsmarine was just as much about prestige as it was about projecting German naval power onto the world's oceans (irl: the North-Atlantic, Med. etc), so I envisaged larger ships staying on as long as possible (with major over-hauls of the inner workings and the weapons' systems) or being replaced with newer, more modern, models.

The Kriegsmarine (kaiserliche Marine if you are playing with the Kaiserreich set up) serves two primary functions within this project: One, is protecting the Reich's maritime borders; the other is facilitating the projection of the Reich's military power beyond its borders (e.g. in the event of another major conflagration).

Like any major navy it has all the kit needed to accomplish both these tasks and with the better part of European industry at its disposal it also has this kit in abundance.

Now, I like big guns, and I like the idea of being able to carry out amphibious operations with some heavy naval support at one's disposal - whether landing off the coast of North America or in the Persian Gulf - so the OOB reflects this. Those who would prefer using smaller calibre naval support into the current decade (as in real life) can use the lighter naval support options (the pics are not definitive).

are the German Marines going to have that political influence?

In a word, yes. Being one of the spearheads in any invasion/police action (the other being the air-landing forces available to the Luftwaffe) where amphibious operations are concerned it has a fair amount of clout. Let us just say that the events in the pacific in these time lines were closely monitored and lessons were learned ;).

[RecruitMonty]

What would you like to know?

If you take a look at OOB44, for instance, you will note that the air assets are mostly VTOL technologies around the 1960s onwards. These aircraft are supposed to represent likely aircraft-carrier / colonial Fliegerhorst load outs.

In OOB35, a more conventional Luftwaffe can be found: Jabos, Bombers and Strategic Bombers.

The helicopters in both are a mish-mash of extrapolations (based on existing models from the US and USSR) and real-world German projects (some completed up to and incl. the prototype phase).

[MarkSheppard]

Just how complete was the III Reich's victory in Continental Europe in the mid 1940s? Was the USSR forced to the negotiating table and severely reduced in power by the capture of Moscow and the death of Stalin in the turmoil following Moscow's fall?

Reason I ask is if the USSR is still an active serious going concern, it has a lot of influence on future post-war AFV design; through the IS series of heavy tanks and the T-44/54 AFV lineage.

If however, the USSR is a puppeted shell of itself, then a lot of the pressure for product improvement is lost globally in AFV design.

[RecruitMonty]

Just how complete was the III Reich's victory in Continental Europe in the mid 1940s?

That is kind of up to the end-users, really. Why start placing constraints on people's imaginations?

It could be anything from a border that starts where the Ukraine and Belarus end all the way up to and including the Urals or along the Volga for that matter if you'd prefer something in between.

I prefer the border to be at the Urals.

For the sake of playability, wherever that border may lay the USSR (and the communist block) has still to be a viable opponent.

[Warhero]

Thanks for all participants about great mod:). Especially icons are great (and Germany flag too;)). Installing was big job but worth of it;)...

Warhero

[RecruitMonty]

I wonder how many people have downloaded so far :confused:.

Maybe there is a way of finding out.

[RecruitMonty]

One area I'm curious about is, what's the post-War German Navy?

I assume some variation of the Z-Plan is completed in this universe; and that the resultant German fleet is semi-modernized post-war with modern technologies in the same way that the US Navy and Soviet Navy modernized their WWII and immediate post war heavy warships with missile technologies.

So figure:

Bismarck (25 years old in August 1965)
Tirpitz (25 years old in February 1966)
Friedrich der Grosse (H-39 Schlachtschiff H) (commissioned Sep 1943, 25 years old Aug 1968)
Hindenburg (H-39 Schlachtschiff J) (commissioned Nov 1943, 25 years old Oct 1968)
Goeben (H-39 Schlachtschiff K) (commissioned Feb 1944, 25 years old Feb 1969)

Schl. H and J were actually laid down in 1939, while K was also ordered in 1939.

But beyond that, I can't see a rationale for major battleship construction, as air power will quickly become apparent as the new dominant force at sea.

So I figure that in the 1950s, the Germans BBGize the three newest ships, while keeping Bismarck and Tirpitz as "expendable" shore bombardment ships.

1950s conversions were studied by the US for the Iowas, and the French for the Jean Bart. Essentially what was proposed was that half the main armament was stripped and replaced with a new superstructure accommodating the new missile directors and launchers.

But by the mid 1960s, all of the ships are going to be approaching 25 years old; about the same age for example, a World War I battleship commissioned 1916 would have been in 1941; and this means their steam plants would be old and creaky.

A big reason the battleships stayed on for so long in the US in mothballs was because of the USMC and their requirement for heavy naval gun support -- are the German Marines going to have that political influence?

Take a look at this: http://www.german-navy.de/kriegsmarine/zplan/battleships/schlachtschiffh/history.html

I am thinking the H39-H42 are all viable variants for the post-war Kriegsmarine. Maybe two ships in the H39 configuration, two in the 40 A and then one or two each for H40B-H42. The H43 and 44 are just too monstrous. What do you say?

This website was one of my sources.

Take a look at the carriers.

[MarkSheppard]

I wonder how many people have downloaded so far :confused:.

Maybe there is a way of finding out.

I can help with that (at least partially).

My website stats says that DAS REICH's url has been hit 20 times and about 1.55 GB of data have been downloaded; at 120~ MB that's about 12 people. (Subtract one for a self-test I did).

[MarkSheppard]

Take a look at this: http://www.german-navy.de/kriegsmarine/zplan/battleships/schlachtschiffh/history.html

I know this site as well :D

I am thinking the H39-H42 are all viable variants for the post-war Kriegsmarine. Maybe two ships in the H39 configuration, two in the 40 A and then one or two each for H40B-H42. The H43 and 44 are just too monstrous. What do you say?

That makes sense. Also, the H43/H44 designs were apparently never 'serious' designs. They were apparently intended as paper exercises on "what would it take to make a battleship immune from known threats?"; in much the same way the Tillman "Maximum" Battleships were an answer to the question "What if we stopped making the ships slightly bigger every few years, and just ordered the maximum biggest possible ship from the beginning?"

Tillman Battleships (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximum_battleship)

Take a look at the carriers.

I'd have to say the CA Seydlitz to CVL conversion is the most probable. Notice how all the other conversions studied were halted for various design issues such as lack of stability and high fuel consumption?

[RecruitMonty]

Yes, those Tillmans are monsters too.

The Flugdeckkreuzer are also interesting designs. I like the Mark A III and A IV especially. I can see something similar being done with Battleships in the 60s. As discussed earlier.

[MarkSheppard]

The Flugdeckkreuzer are also interesting designs. I like the Mark A III and A IV especially.

The USN and other navies investigated the flying deck cruiser concept heavily during the 1920s up to February 1940; but it was killed off by the coming of WWII.

One such actual USN FDC Design of the 30s (http://www.shipbucket.com/images.php?dir=Never%20Built%20Designs/United%20States%20of%20America/CAV%20Flightdeck%20Cruiser%201931%20Design.png)

The French investigated it as well, their final FDC warship having a single 11 inch gun turret aft.

French PA-5B (http://i.imgur.com/rZBrFZh.gif)

This is what

THE HYBRID WARSHIP
The Amalgamation of Big Guns and Aircraft

Has to say about the German FDCs:

The German Navy had taken a step toward the hybrid during the design of the carrier Graf Zeppelin. Because Germany was forbidden by the Treaty of Versailles from building aircraft carriers or military aircraft during the 1920s, German designs of the early 1930s were affected by the same factors that had influenced the carrier designs of other navies a decade earlier: fundamental inexperience in carrier operations and a belief that the vessel should be able to defend itself against surface ships. In 1933, when the carrier design process was initiated, it was thought that the ship would have to fight its way through a North Sea blockade; later, it was theorised that a carrier might serve as a surface raider, either accompanied by cruisers and battleships or alone. In the latter case it would function as a sort of super- Wolf, the aircraft-equipped mercantile menace of the First World War. To these ends, the early characteristics for Germany's first carrier, issued in March 1934, called for a 15,000 ton ship armed with either six 8in or nine 6in guns. Speed was to be 33 knots, and aircraft capacity was set at about 60.

Admiral Erich Raeder, Commander-in-Chief of the Kriegsmarine, was especially interested in providing these ships with firepower astern; he believed they would need guns aft to deter a pursuer. He probably saw the ship as a lone commerce raider; however, this battery proved impossible on the desired tonnage. Instead, eight 5.9in guns in armoured casemates were substituted; eventually, this battery grew to sixteen guns in twin casemates. These guns, useless against aircraft, were supplemented by a strong AA battery of 4.1 in guns. Since such weapons could have shot up unprotected merchantmen almost as well as the 5.9in guns, the heavier guns must have been intended to defend the ship against small warships. Nevertheless, it is difficult to understand why the single-purpose batteries were not merged into a uniform dual-purpose armament.

At this point, Adolf Hitler enters the story. The German dictator had shown a lifelong interest in big ships and their technology, sometimes drawing improbable battleship designs in his sketchbooks. As in so many other areas, his interest was sporadic and his comprehension of the topic incomplete; it often showed that peculiar combination of penetrating insight and impossible fantasising that characterised so much of his military thinking. So, shortly before Graf Zeppelin was launched, Hitler remarked that a well armed aircraft carrier would make an excellent commerce raider; he did not pursue this line of thought at the time, but he would return to it occasionally in the years ahead.

Graf Zeppelin was still incomplete when the Second World War broke out. The German Navy soon found itself in the uncomfortable position of having neither a substantial surface fleet nor an adequate submarine force; Hitler had promised Raeder that war with Britain would not come until the mid-1940s, so the navy had initiated a massive construction programme, the famous 'Z Plan', centred on powerful battleships. All this went into the scrap heap on 3 September 1939 when Britain declared war. Only those ships nearing completion were to be worked on; efforts would otherwise be concentrated on the construction of U-boats. By May 1940, work on Graf Zeppelin had come to a halt, even though the ship was more than 85 per cent complete. It was felt that the war would be brought to a successful conclusion before the end of the year, well before the carrier could be finished. When the hope of a quick victory passed, there were always other, more pressing concerns, and the carrier languished in a variety of Baltic ports until she was finally scuttled at Stettin to avoid her capture by the Soviets. Salvaged, she was taken under tow to Leningrad, but apparently foundered during the voyage, perhaps after striking a mine.

While Graf Zeppelin was towed from harbour to harbour, the German constructors, like their counterparts in the Service Technique, continued designing warships even though there was an ever-diminishing possibility of such ships ever being built. Most famous of these paper projects were the enlarged versions of the 'H' class battleships studied at Hitler's orders, which resulted in the giant H-42, H-43 and H-44 designs. Hitler's interests were not confined to battleships, however. In July 1940, he once again mentioned the commerce-raiding potential of 'cruisers equipped with flight decks' during a naval affairs conference with Raeder. In response, the navy's construction office suggested the conversion of one of the incomplete 'M' class light cruisers to carry about fourteen aircraft with some reduction in armament and speed. However, at 7800 tons standard displacement, these ships would clearly have made inadequate flight-deck cruisers.

Hitler probably expressed interest in hybrid ships on subsequent occasions, for in 1942 the Naval War Staff prepared a paper which specifically concluded that battleship-carrier hybrids were not feasible, since the aviation facilities would interfere with gunnery. A hybrid cruiser, on the other hand, was considered a much sounder proposition. The roles envisaged for such a vessel were exactly those advanced by American advocates of the flying-deck cruiser some twelve years earlier: scouting, air defence, convoy protection and commerce raiding. Admiral Raeder liked the idea sufficiently to order further study.

In the end, two series of hybrid designs emerged: small flight-deck cruisers {Flugdeckkreuzer), and much larger ships {Grossflugzeugkreuzer). The smaller designs were completed by 1943; all showed modest characteristics, as a glance at the table will show. Armed with four or eight 5.9in guns and carrying ten to twenty-five aircraft, they are in some ways less impressive than the American flying-deck cruiser designs of the 1930s. As in other German designs for aviation ships, the aircraft capacity seems relatively small compared with the size of the ships; this was probably the result of a tendency on the part of German designers to avoid sponsons and other projections from a ship's side, which meant that the AA guns and directors cut into the hull width available for the hangar; workshops and crew quarters surrounding the hangar may have reduced its potential volume as well. In all these flight-deck cruiser designs, the use of diesel or combined diesel/steam propulsion would have given the ships a considerable cruising radius — valuable for commerce raiding — at the cost of a heavier machinery plant.

These flight-deck cruisers, perhaps better classed as well armed carriers, might have functioned well as merchant raiders; the same cannot be said of the Grossflugzeugkreuzer designs. These enormous ships showed little appreciation for the operational needs of aircraft; moreover, their aircraft capacities were remarkably small for their size. They have been characterised by Wilhelm Hadeler, who had been in charge of the design of Graf Zeppelin, as 'sham assignments which were worked out to protect a small circle of younger employees from conscription'. However, Hadeler was not in the design office when these hybrids were sketched, and the surviving documentation on the projects is incomplete, so their exact origins remain obscure.

The series began with Design AII of 9 April 1942. This ship had a full load displacement of 40,000 tons, yet carried only twenty-three aircraft. Forward, there was a quadruple turret for 8in guns, a battery that seems very light both in number and calibre; the drawing shows a turret similar in size to the quadruple 11in turret of the later A IV design, so it may be that the calibre given with this drawing was in error. This supposition gains some support from the fact that an undated variation on this design, AII*, apparently was to be armed with six 11in guns in two triple turrets on about the same displacement as A II; it seems unlikely that a greater number of guns far larger than 8in could have been substituted without considerably increasing the displacement. The quadruple turret may have been inspired by a review of the French design materials that had fallen into German hands in the summer of 1940. In other respects, A II shows features that would be shared by the subsequent designs in the series: a heavy 5.9in battery in twin casemates, a 4.1in AA battery located along the sidedecks, a narrow hangar, AA directors projecting dangerously above the level of the flight deck for no apparent reason, and a portside island. This last feature has no explanation. Propulsion was to be pure diesel, with the exhaust to be vented via outlets along the ship's side; as in the subsequent designs, a speed of 34 knots was anticipated. The most unusual feature of this sketch is the extreme flare of the bows, which surely would have subjected the ship's structure to severe pounding in any sort of a seaway.

AII was followed by A III; this called for a ship of no less than 70,000 tons, yet it carried only thirty-two aircraft and had a battery of six 11 in guns in two triple turrets forward. Its tremendous displacement is explained in part by the heavy protection specified; side armour consisted of a 9.8in belt, while the flight deck was almost 2in thick and an armoured deck was 5.9in. This design was to be driven by a combined steam/diesel plant and so shows a funnel, which seems rather short; most carrier funnels were high to get the hot gases as far above the flight deck as possible. The forward end of the flight deck, as Hadeler says, 'appears to have been laid out specifically to cause turbulence'. Worse still, the height of the second 11 in turret was such that the catapults had to be angled off the centreline so that aircraft could clear it, which would have made rapid launching of aircraft impossible. The ship would have had to zig-zag wildly to get first one, then the other, catapult into the wind. Combined with all its other faults and weaknesses, it seems a very poor effort indeed, and demonstrates a lack of understanding of even the most basic requirements of shipboard aviation.

A IV offered some improvements. Again, the ship was 70,000 tons, with protection somewhat reduced from that of A III. The battery was concentrated in a single quadruple 11 in turret forward, which allowed a reduction in the height of the hangar; more importantly, the two catapults could now be placed parallel to the axis of the ship, greatly facilitating aviation operations. Propulsion was pure diesel, the increased weight of which may account in part for the reduced level of protection. Aircraft capacity was again a paltry thirty-two machines.

The final design in the series, Project A IIa, was the worst of a bad lot. Another 70,000 tonner, it showed all the worst features of its predecessors and added the final lunacy of a centreline superstructure. The draughtsman tried to ameliorate this retrograde ediface with a half-hearted attempt at streamlining, but the typical German tower-mast structure with its attendant platforms and directors would surely have created almost as much turbulence as had Furious' upperworks. The catapults are once again angled outboard, the periphery of the flight deck cluttered with AA directors.

No drawings seem to have survived for a final undated design, designated C. This is unfortunate, for it shows a completely different mix of features from the other designs. It was armed with six 11in guns and featured protection as heavy as that of the other designs, and a diesel/ steam propulsion plant good for 34 knots. Unlike the other designs, however, it was to carry no fewer than eighty aircraft, a complement befitting its 56,000 ton size. How this was to be accomplished is not known; perhaps the AA battery was finally sponsoned out from the hull proper, allowing an increase in hangar width; or perhaps a permanent deck park was employed. Whatever its arrangements may have been, it is the only design in the series that seems anywhere near adequate.

[MarkSheppard]

Recruit Monty; here's my stab at making a Timeline for DAS REICH -- it's cribbed heavily from earlier attempts at making a somewhat plausible "Germany does a lot better" timeline.

-----------------

OBJECTIVE OF THIS EXERCISE:

Develop a somewhat plausible timeline that lets the Germans do better in the East without resorting to a significant amount of "handwavium".

A lot of my thinking was musing on how to make SEA LION work after reading almost halfway through a book on Switzerland in WW2 titled: Target Switzerland: Swiss Armed Neutrality in World War 2.

The book made a good point -- many of the German conquests of 1939-41 were basically rolling the dice and then getting supremely lucky like:

A.) Taking Denmark in six hours and 200 dead through forcing the capitulation of the Danish government.

B.) France folding despite it not being hopeless -- the French military still had many units still in reserve that were unmobilized and the Armee d l'Air had MORE aircraft operational at the Armistice than they did in May 1940.

C.) Yugoslavia; a mountain country full of psychotics armed to the teeth folded in about a month.

In contrast, the Swiss General Staff said basically:

"ANY orders that say surrender or anything like that are automatically invalid whether or not they come from the federal council or general staff.

You are to fight to the last bullet and then engage in guerilla warfare if you aren't dead yet."

It made me start to think about the role that "psychological operations" played in the early German victories particularly since Europe in 1930-1941 was a very tired and sick continent still recovering from the horrors of World War I and this led into my thoughts on how to make a semi successful SEA MARMOSET.

I hit upon not having a big POD, but several medium sized ones.

1.) Churchill -- He gets hit by a Taxi and either dies or is invalided in the 1930s. He might have a good writing career in books or as a political pundit, but the injury is enough to keep him from serious political campaigning as a MP.

2.) The King -- Edward VIII never abdicates.

3.) Goering -- In the 1923 Beer Hall Putsch, he twists away at the last second, and gets injured slightly less. If you quantified the charisma and intelligence of Pre-Putsch 1923 Goering as being 100%, with Nuremberg 1945 Goering as being about 60-70%; then due to twisting away at the last second, this Goering is about 40%, compared to the 25% that occured in Real Life.

Essentially, Goering's health is improved enough that he can take a better interest in the Luftwaffe, as opposed to collecting stolen art, the social life, etc. This results in slightly improved production in both pilots and planes.

This doesn't account to much initially -- 5 or 10 extra planes a week and a few extra pilots a month, but over time, this builds up; allowing the Luftwaffe to better absorb losses from Poland and the Battle of France, so they're in a better tactical position when the Battle of Britain starts.

The Luftwaffe doesn't decisively *win* the Battle of Britain, but they get to a point where Sea Marmoset appears somewhat feasible to execute in the eyes of staff planners.

Additionally, because Churchill's been out of the political picture, there's no incredibly brutal sinking of the French fleet, so this means the Royal Navy has to entertain the POSSIBILITY of French Vichy units assisting the Kriegsmarine, complicating their planning for defeating a German invasion.

So, Sea Marmoset opens about September to October 1940, with mass Fallschirmjaeger landings in Southern England; and these landings go about as well as Crete did in real life -- 60% to 70% or more casualties in certain subunits in 7 Flieger Division and a 40% casualty rate for the division as a whole.

It's horrifically bloody, but they manage to secure at least one harbor in Southern England, enabling follow on sea-based reinforcements.

So...you've got the Kriegsmarine and (maybe) the Vichy French Navy battling it out in the Channel, while the Luftwaffe can seize air superiority over Southern England enough of the time to attrit the RAF, when the RAF comes to bomb the German landing areas.

Up in London, there's no Sir Winston drinking brandy and issuing speeches like "we will fight on the beaches, from the rooftops, etc..." backed up by the implacable George VI; so the political elite of England are wavering.

As emphasized by Target Switzerland: Swiss Armed Neutrality in World War 2, the Germans never really quite defeated everyone except Poland -- they always got K.O. rulings by the Judge when the ruling elite capitulated early -- until of course.... RUSSIA.

Eventually, the political pressure gets to be too much and the British fold their cards like the others have so far in WWII -- asking for an Armistice.

The deal is -- Britain basically recognizes the New Order in Europe and lifts the blockade on Germany in exchange for the New Order not messing with the British Empire.

Inside Britain, you'd see the fascist parties regroup after their prominent members (Mosley, etc) are let out of prison, and they'd maybe get a few MPs in parliament due to the 'Bandwagon effect'.

Over in the Soviet Union; Stalin is going oh ****, and frantically redoubling his efforts to regenerate the Red Army following the Purges; but he did too much; good operations officers, etc don't grow on trees.

Following the Armistice with Britain that ended the European War of 1939-40, it's possible that Hitler, prodded by the Kreigsmarine, begins negotiations with France and the Netherlands over a formal lightening of the occupation -- "gee, we'd like to withdraw from your countries, but you know, we need something a little...extra."

So at least one major island in the Dutch East Indies chain is basically a German Colony now; along with possibly parts of Indochina?

The new German colonies in Asia; along with the added influence of the Germans in the region -- "look, you really do want to sell oil to the Japanese. No really. You DO want to. It would be a shame if we expanded our holdings..." can end up postponing the Japanese-American Pacific War until maybe 1942-43, due to Japan getting an independent source of raw materials that bypasses the American Embargo.

Japan's kicking off of the Pacific War could be due to them doing the calculations on fleet sizes:

Third Vinson Act -- June 14, 1940 (http://alternatewars.com/Congress/PL_629_Vinson_Act_1940.htm)
Two Ocean Navy Bill -- July 19, 1940 (http://alternatewars.com/Congress/PL_757_Two_Ocean_Bill.htm)

Those two bills passed in Our TimeLine (OTL) in the Summer of 1940 following the fall of France (but before the Battle of Britain) basically authorized through simple tonnage:

10 x Fleet Carriers
9 x Battleships
37 x Cruisers (approx average of CA/CL tonnage)
61 x Submarines
125 x Destroyers

Once Britain signs an Armistice, the US is going to be going holy **** even more than Stalin is. You might see a Fourth Vinson Act signed; adding possibly:

3 to 4 x Fleet CV
4 x Battleships
15 x Cruisers
20 x Submarines
60 x Destroyers

to the US fleet by 1945.

[ED NOTE: An enormous amount of industrial capacity was consumed by the Destroyer Escort and Liberty/Victory Ship building program; if you don't have these, it's possible for all this to be built by '44-45]

That means...Japan is simply outbuilt massively in Naval strength by 1944-45; so their only option is to...STRIKE FAST before the US can bring online all these new ships.

However, they need raw materials; so from 1940-1941 there is a constant battle within the Japanese hierarchy over "do we have enough stockpiled materials from the New Order in Europe?" and "We must strike now before the Americans grow strong!".

Eventually, the "STRIKE" group gets ascendant and they strike in 1942.

EDIT: More to be done later.

[IronDuke99]

The Germans could not have invaded Britain in 1940. The Royal Navy was simply far too large and too powerful for the Germans to have had any chance of success, even more so after the heavy German naval losses off Norway, etc.

Even if the Germans had managed, somehow, to get most of a first wave safely ashore, they could not have been kept supplied.

The RAF, even if losing to the German Air Force could always have pulled aircraft back beyond range of German Fighter escorts. UK was in 1940, hugely out producing Germany in terms of fighter aircraft.

This subject has been done to death in other places but Sealion never stood any chance of success whatever. None.

[DRG]

Sealion was a part pipe dream part sideshow to divert attention from Barbarossa

[IronDuke99]

Without Churchill, UK might, or might not, have tried to make peace with Germany, after the defeat of France, since Hitler certainly offered it.

What Hitler stood no chance of doing was forcing UK to make peace by a successful landing in Britain.

A German attempt at a paratroop landing would have firstly been massacred by RAF Fighter Command, but even if a large number of troops managed to land -unlikely in itself- they would have fared even worse than they actually did in Crete, where they faced almost no air opposition and no armoured vehicles, and where they nearly lost. Remember Germany had one airborne Divsion only in 1940.

Even if the airborne troops don't get shot down on route and then, somehow manage to capture a port, how do the Germans reinforce them with next to no navy, facing what, in 1940, was still the joint largest navy in the world?

"Royal Navy Warship Strength

The Royal Navy, still the largest in the world in September 1939, included:

15 Battleships & battlecruisers, of which only two were post-World War 1. Five 'King George V' class battleships were building.

7 Aircraft carriers. One was new and five of the planned six fleet carriers were under construction. There were no escort carriers.

66 Cruisers, mainly post-World War 1 with some older ships converted for AA duties. Including cruiser-minelayers, 23 new ones had been laid down.

184 Destroyers of all types. Over half were modern, with 15 of the old 'V' and 'W' classes modified as escorts. Under construction or on order were 32 fleet destroyers and 20 escort types of the 'Hunt' class.

60 Submarines, mainly modern with nine building.

45 escort and patrol vessels with nine building, and the first 56 'Flower' class corvettes on order to add to the converted 'V' and 'W's' and 'Hunts'. However, there were few fast, long-endurance convoy escorts.

Commonwealth Navies

Included in the Royal Navy totals were:

Royal Australian Navy - six cruisers, five destroyers and two sloops;

Royal Canadian Navy - six destroyers;

Royal Indian Navy - six escort and patrol vessels;

Royal New Zealand Navy, until October 1941 the New Zealand Division of the Royal Navy - two cruisers and two sloops."

http://www.naval-history.net/WW2CampaignRoyalNavy.htm

The manpower of the Royal Navy and Royal Marines stood at over 200,000 in 1939.

By contrast even before losses off Norway, etc in 1939 Germany had

2 Battle Cruisers ( with 2 Battleships building)
3 'Pocket Battleships'
8 Cruisers (with 1 building)
22 Destroyers (with 12 building)
20 Torpedo boats with 12-14 building
57 submarines

The Germans had a number of other ships in the early stages of construction, but not much useful work was done on them after the outbreak of war.


By 1940 from this initially small force the Germans had already lost one 'Pocket Battleship', three cruisers and 10 Destroyers, ie roughly a third of their naval forces at the outbreak of war.

[MarkSheppard]

This subject has been done to death in other places but Sealion never stood any chance of success whatever. None.

It's why I had to go back and change a few things (Churchill, King, Goering) to make Sealion *possible*, and even then; I had to stick to a limited Sea Lion.

Most of the 'Classic' Sea Lion Scenarios posited such as by Kenneth Macksey in his Book "INVASION" in 1980 start with the Germans gaining a foothold, proceeding to Line #1, then... LONDON [tm] and Line #2.

Classical Sea Lion Map (http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/althistory/images/d/d9/Operation_Sea_lion.png)

In my envisioned Leichte Sea Lion, air landings then backed up by sea reinforcements come on a line from Bexhill to Ramsgate (about 50 miles frontage); and the deepest penetrations *may* come within artillery range of the outskirts of London (or not).

In any event, the Germans can't truly *conquer* England, not unless we Alien Space Bat so many things that this isn't World War II anymore, but some sort of weird parallel universe with reptilians.

What they can do is try to force a negotiated peace through a series of political shocks against England similar to that done to Denmark, Norway, Belgium, France, Yugoslavia, Greece by Germany, and much later in World War II by America against Japan in August 1945.

I know; it's kind of weak, but I'm trying my best to make something that's not too outlandish.

Some political shocks that are possible are:

A.) An actual invasion of England, as opposed to aerial bombardment.

B.) Capture of significant portion of the BEF around Dunkirk -- historically 338,000~ men escaped while about 50,000 men in total walked into captivity. A total German crushing of Dunkirk isn't possible, due to RAF aerial cover and Royal Navy fire support; along with the internal logistics of assaulting Dunkirk -- the British and French can collapse their perimeter step by step, making their defenses stronger with each mile -- but you can reduce the amount of men escaping from Dunkirk to say, maybe 50-60% of what it was historically. This has some important effects, as the BEF was the long-service cream of the British Army at the time AFAIK.

C.) The Royal Navy can be significantly blooded in the North Sea / Channel, when they intervene. It's worth noting that the RN had global commitments, reducing the actual strength they can bring into operation in Home Waters:

ROYAL NAVY SHIPS, JUNE 1940 (Part 1 of 4) (http://www.naval-history.net/xDKWW2-4006-15RNHome1.htm)
ROYAL, DOMINION and INDIAN NAVY SHIPS, JUNE 1940 (Part 4 of 4) (http://www.naval-history.net/xDKWW2-4006-15RNOverseas-Dominion.htm)

(cruisers and DDs not counted, as I'd have to count each one individually from the lists)

Home Waters Around England:
4 x BB (Barham, Nelson, Rodney, Valiant)
3 x BC (Renown, Repulse, Hood)
2 x CV (Ark Royal, Furious)

North Atlantic (Near Gibraltar)
1 x BB (Resolution)
1 x CL (Arethusa)

Mediterranean Fleet:
4 x BB (Malaya, Ramilles, Royal Sovereign, Warspite)
2 x CV (Eagle, Argus)

South Atlantic Command
1 x CV (Hermes) Near West Africa

Bermuda/Halifax Escort Force:
1 x BB (Revenge) at Halifax, Canada

Royal Australian Navy / Canadian / New Zealand: Concentrated in their home waters basically.

Then there's the wild card of the French Navy:

2 x BB (Paris, Courbet) in service, with 2 x BB (Richeliu, Jean Bart) under construction, plus the attendant heavy (cruisers) and light (destroyers) escorts.

If Churchill is not PM, do the British have the intestinal fortitude necessary to shell the French fleet and sink it at anchor and/or blockade/intern them to remove them from the equation?

Against this, the German Navy is:

1 x BB (Bismarck) -- is still new and working up.
2 x Unavailable BC (Scharnhorst, Gneisenau) - In repair yards until December 1940.
2 x Unavailable CB (Admiral Scheer, Lützow) -- Scheer is on a raiding cruise, while Lutzow is under repair until Spring 1941.
2 x CA (Adm Hipper, Prinz Eugen) -- Hipper is earmarked for Sea Lion support, while Prinz Eugen is still new and working up.
3 x CL (Emden, Köln, Nürnberg)
14 x DD (Z4, Z5, Z6, Z7, Z8, Z10, Z14, Z15, Z16, Z18, 19, 20, 21, 22) (approximately)
3 x Coming Soon DD (Z23, Z24, Z25) -- Commissioned Sep-Nov 1940.

On paper, the correlation of naval forces in home waters is untenable enough that even Hitler would be leery of putting Sea Lion on.

But as I posited earlier, what if Goering was marginally wounded less in 1923; so he's not as much of a morphine addict as he was in real life?

Goering was pretty charismatic when he wasn't doped up to the gills on drugs.

In real life, the Germans from July to September 1940 lost 1,600~ combat aircraft (classified destroyed on operations): Link to Strategy for Defeat The Luftwaffe 1933-1945 Table IX (https://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/AAF/AAF-Luftwaffe/AAF-Luftwaffe-2.html#tableIX)

That's bad; but what if the losses were shaved a bit off (4-5% less) to higher initial starting strengths, due to Goering being more competent over the years leading up to 1940?

Also of note is the extremely low loss rate (relatively speaking) in the Ju-87 units -- only 21% of initial strength, compared to 45% in bomber units and 66% in twin engine fighter units.

The Ju-87B can carry a 1,100 lb bomb out to a combat radius of 275 km; that's enough to essentially cover the English Channel and southern parts of the North Sea from bases in France. I don't have the ranges for -87B with the 2,200 lb bomb, but eh. A more coherent, less overweight Goering could convince Hitler that "no, the Kriegsmarine can't stop the Royal Navy, but my Luftwaffe can".

With the air forces on both sides being far more powerful than they were in WWI, battles between the Royal Navy and Kriegsmarine might actually resemble more the frenzied night fighting between the USN and IJN near Guadalcanal, with small task forces from both sides steaming into the area for bombardment of the landing zone / night fighting around midnight each night; with the damaged ships on both sides from that night's fighting becoming centerpieces for the next day's aerial battles.

With a much weaker internal British political establishment -- no Churchill, a pro-German sympathetic king in Edward VIII, and the political elite in London being able to see the flashes of gunfire in Southern England on certain nights; along with the steady attrition of the RAF and Royal Navy every day; an armistice isn't so far fetched as it might sound.

It's still a very long shot; but it's better than "Germans invade England on a 120~ mile invasion landing front, and then push 50-60 miles inland and occupy London and execute a reign of terror." in terms of plausibility.

NOTE: As an aside, a lot of scenarios are writing themselves in my head -- the old SSI Fighting Steel game with the Fighting Steel Project mod would have been awesome for this confused night fighting, but alas, Fighting Steel's engine relied on a specific implementation of DirectX that was eliminated by Microsoft only months after the original game release in 1999.

[Suhiir]

I seem to recall reading the Luftwaffe was winning the Battle of Britain when they were concentrating on radar and air bases, then when they switched to cities (particularly London) it allowed the RAF to recover.

[MarkSheppard]

Actually, you know, I had a long walk with the dog, and I realized I was over thinking things.

No invasion of England is actually needed to force Britain into an armistice if there's no Churchill and Edward VIII is on the throne.

The shock of France crumbling in just 43 days (as opposed to grinding it out to the end over 4 years as in WWI), followed by the loss of a significant portion of the BEF into captivity would be enough to shake the British government to it's core and raise calls for an armistice.

You know, I can't help but wonder if people were calling for that in May 1940 in real life. I'd sure love to read British newspapers from back then.

It's just that you know...it's a CHALLENGE, damnit to make a Sea Lion that's somewhat plausible. :rolleyes:

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

It is fairly well known now that the German Naval High Command opposed Sea Lion almost from the beginning, the Battle of Britain sealed the fate of that operation. Hitler as we know would draw his attention back to Russia as he saw the Soviet Socialists system as a bigger threat not only to himself but the world. He did after all saw himself as a "crusader" at times. Also it should be noted that almost to the mid/or end of the WWII he still thought some accommodation could be made with England.

I believe to get a better picture of Churchill, mood of the English and military status and issues I would highly recommend reading William Manchester's (w/Paul Reid who Manchester personally chose to finish Vol. III) Vol. II The Last Lion/Alone, 1932-1940 Pub. 1988 and Vol. III The Last Lion/Defender Of The Realm, 1940-1965 Pub. 2012 (Which greatly benefited from the release of classified documents from all the major powers involved starting from 1995 on.), you would be hard pressed to find a better all round references. I personally found them very insightful and feel he was the best (Unfortunately in part also in his uncanny way of predicting future events leading well into The Cold War.) of the "Big Four" he wasn't perfect but, he was better than good. It's worth noting his bust was and is again the only foreign leader to be honored and held in the White House to my limited knowledge.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Regards,

[IronDuke99]

A good deal of the Royal Australian and Royal New Zealand navies were actually not in their home waters in 1939-40, but supporting the RN in the Med and Atlantic, etc. Canadian troops were also in UK.

the lower losses of the JU87's were purely because they suffered such heavy losses in their early operations against Britain, that the German Air Force had to totally withdraw them from operations over and close to UK.

Also worth bearing in mind that the German Air Force in 1939-40, in common with most other air forces, was actually not all that good at sinking enemy warships that early in the war.(although they improved later on).

I am not all that convinced that Edward VIII was really all that pro German and, in any case, even in 1940 the views of a British King, were hardly all that important in political as opposed to propaganda terms.

Yes a UK without Churchill might, maybe, have made peace with Germany after the fall of France, if the German terms had been generous enough (ie, no loss of territory, no German troops on any British territory at home or overseas, no concessions to Italy, full exchange of prisoners, etc). However even such a peace would have seen UK continue to re-arm and, perhaps to Britain's advantage, might have enabled this to happen without British bankruptcy by 1942...

[Suhiir]

It's been widely rumored (or is it now confirmed?) that's why Rudolf Hess flew to Scotland and was the sole prisoner in Spandau after 1966 till his death in 1987.
The possibility of a separate peace between Britain and Germany in mid-1941.

[MarkSheppard]

Bah, here's something to fill in a hole in your OOB: the Ju-252/352.

Hacked together from the SPCAMO MBT DC-4/C-54 generic silv/white (Icon2785) in about 45 minutes and some comparing Ju-52 to Ju 252 drawings.

Why so important:

Ju-52: About 10.2m2 floor space and 18.5m3 volume and about 2 tonnes of payload to a range of 650 miles at a cruising speed of about 120-130 MPH.

Ju-252: About 22m2 floor space and 38m3 volume and about 7 tonnes of payload to range of 2,400 miles at a cruising speed of about 220+ MPH.

The 252 is roughly comparable to the C-46 Commando basically.

Bah, some parts don't look right. Oh well, version 2.0 tomorrow.

[IronDuke99]

I should perhaps say I am not against this mod in any way (I have even downloaded it). I am just against the idea Hitler could have invaded Britain, or have forced her to make peace.

If I were going to do the -alternative- history I might base it on UK and France calling Hitlers bluff at Munich and the German General Staff removing Hitler at that point - as a good many of them planned, had war broken out in 1938- and then producing what would have been a right wing, but rather more democratic German Government, perhaps even including a return of a Kaiser (but perhaps in a more constitutional form) as many German soldiers desired, and coupled with an end to the vile, evil, and totally stupid, Nazi race laws.

In 1938 Germany, by then including Austria, certainly could have got peace on the removal of Hitler, and the other Nazis, from power.

Germany could continue to expand her military. Britain and France would have done likewise. Czechoslovakia and Poland would continue in the game, as would Great Britain and the Empire, France and Stalin's USSR, the USA, Japan and Italy.

Germany might still want to expand, but without a madman and a group of vile, evil, thugs leading the country and minus the racial/religious genocide and cold blooded deliberate, industrial, murder of millions of men, women and children.

Now on that basis it might make some sort of sense and in a German-Soviet war -without racial/religious genocide or the deliberate killing of civilians and POW's by Germany, Germany might even get allies not just within the USSR but outside it, since prior to 1939 Stalin had killed a lot more civilians than Germany had and the USSR was hardly popular in Western Europe.

What you have to give up on is Germany building a fleet. If she tries to then the British Empire becomes her enemy -because it has to to survive- and Germany cannot win that naval war as 1914-18 and 1939-45 proved beyond any doubt.

Germany, in the 1930's, minus Hitler and the Nazis, can make the British Empire and the USA, more or less, genuinely neutral, in the East, if she either avoids commitments to Japan or gets Japan to also look East and north and not South.

Mind you the USA had a fairly odd commitment to China in those days, that I have never seen much sense in, beyond the awful Japanese atrocities like their vile behaviour in Nanking in 1937.

Still food for thought I hope...

[IronDuke99]

To try to understand WWII you have to know that in 1939:

Hitler was in some respects not very bright, including his moronic hatred of Jewish people.

Italy and Japan, generally, sensibly, did not share Hitler's views on Jewish people.

In the 1930's the USA and the British Empire mainly saw themselves as trade rivals. The USA had a war plan against Canada and the British Empire that was updated into the 1930's.

Winston Churchill had an American mother he was very, very, fond of that gave his, always very emotional, view of the world a pro-American bias that most of us thinking British folks, thought/think was a little bit excessive...

Prior to 1939 Stalin in the USSR had killed vastly more civilians than Germany. By 1944/45 Roosevelt said he trusted Stalin more than Churchill and acted on it. We all know what that led to...

[IronDuke99]

Had I been in Churchill's position when Hitler invaded Russia, I would not have risked one single British ship or sent Stalin as much as a second hand pair of British Army boots while British forces in the Far East (Malaya and Burma) lacked tanks and modern aircraft.

In the event the vast amount of British and American military aid sent to Russia that cost the western allies -mainly UK- dear in warships and merchant ships, did very little to stop the German onslaught into the then USSR IN 1941-43, but did allow Stalin's forces, by giving them transport, to romp into Europe in 1944-45.

A book I recommend is "The Last Thousand Days of the British Empire" by Peter Clarke (2008). I do not agree with all of it, but it makes a lot of very good points from a British point of view.

[Suhiir]

Mind you the USA had a fairly odd commitment to China in those days, that I have never seen much sense in, beyond the awful Japanese atrocities like their vile behaviour in Nanking in 1937.
As stated earlier it was primarily economic.

After the Spanish-American War in 1898 the US had a few overseas holdings and while there was no chance of building a "British Empire" they could, and did, compete economically, and China was a pretty significant market. The USA became seriously involved in global trade post WW I (why the US Navy expanded so much between WW I and WW II).

[MarkSheppard]

Guys, the "Bah" was more of a general "hey wait, maybe we're getting sidetracked a little too much and talking a bit too much about alternate counterfactuals, plausibilities, instead of RecruitMonty's mod?"

So a little graphics for RecruitMonty, then back to our arguing :p

Version 2.0 of Ju-252, with:

1.) Generic Silver Scheme.
2.) Lufthansa Scheme (Black Bands)
3.) All White Winter Scheme.
4.) Green Camouflage Summer Scheme.
5.) All Tan Desert Camouflage.

You'll note that the civilian graphics don't have a top turret. :p

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

I'm just a "straight up" baseline game player, though this mod has intrigued me over the years. That being said, does this mod have and build onto the ARADO 234 BLITZ? The 234B-2 being the definitive operational model to see combat before the wars end. it was classified as a single seat reconnaissance bomber and would have been operational around Sep/Oct 1944 with 214 total models built.

Some quick facts: Powerplant: 2 Junkers Jumo 109-004B-1 Orkan (Hurricane) turbojets. Speed: 461mph@19,685ft./438mph@sea level. Armament: 2 Defensive aft firing fuselage mounted 15.1mm MG 151 or 20mm MG151/20 cannons with 250/200 rounds per gun respectively. Offensive bomb load 2,204lbs/3,307lbs with rocket assist "drop" motors. Range: based on previous corresponding bomb loads 1,013 miles/684 miles. It had a high ceiling and was a very advanced plane to include a fully functional pilot ejection seat system. If needed or wanted I have all the rest of the specs as well. It's just you never hear about this one because it wasn't as "exciting" as the Me-163 KOMET (COMET) or the Me-262 SCHWALBE (SWALLOW).

Let me know in the meantime I think I'll check into something elsewhere. ;)

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

It's more fun with Pics:
14153 14154

14155 14156

14157

[IronDuke99]

That German jet bomber is in WinSP WW2 for sure.

Like most of the advanced weapons the Germans were working on late in the war it was a case of too little and too late and with not enough fuel to use it much in any case.

One of the interesting things about a Mod like this is in a Germany without Hitler and the Nazis, Germany can make sane strategic and operational choices (tactics the Germans always did well). Also Germany need not lose a lot of very good brains due to their religion/race and some scientific/technical projects might go a bit faster for them than they did in reality.

For example the ME 262 jet fully operational, as a fighter, in late 1943-early 1944 (and that might have created problems for even the Western Allies in the real WWII, given that out of all the Allies only the Brits had an operational Jet, the Gloster Meteor in WWII).

As an Aside I am always struck that Gloster Aircraft produced the RAF's last biplane fighter, the Gladiator that saw action in WWII and the RAF's first jet Fighter the Meteor by 1944...

[IronDuke99]

Guys, the "Bah" was more of a general "hey wait, maybe we're getting sidetracked a little too much and talking a bit too much about alternate counterfactuals, plausibilities, instead of RecruitMonty's mod?"

I hope that RecruitMonty will be happy to see his interesting mod generating discussion and interest on here. I very strongly suspect the more interest and discussion the more people might take a look at and use the mod...

[IronDuke99]

Question for Tank experts (me I was an Infantry soldier):

There is a sort of link from WWII British Tanks, that spent much of the war out gunned and out Armoured by German Tanks, to the Centurion -just too late for WWII- Chieftain and even, to some degree, Challenger tanks of the British Army.

What I mean is that a tank is a trade off between fire power, armour and mobility and British post war tanks, at least until Challenger, always went for fire power and armour at the expense of mobility. To me that makes sense as a result of British WWII experience, especially US Shermans and Cromwells v Tigers and Panthers in 1944-45. (Incidentally the British gave the US a fair number of Sherman Fireflys with the excellent British 17 pd gun, in a sort or reverse lend lease, but the US Army never used them largely due, it seems, to a US bias against non US kit).

So my question is if there is any such link between the German Panther of WWII and the post war Leopard and Leopard II? Or was the gap in German tank production too long?

[Suhiir]

Tank (and aircraft) production is never as easy as it seems on paper.

Sure you can whip up a set of blueprints in a few days/weeks and a prototype in a few months. But then the fun begins. Manufacture. It takes time to build a factory, and will the output from that factory be sufficient, do you have access to the material and manpower needed. Post war development runs into the problem of can you get the money.

The WW II Panther was a great tank on the battlefield but suffered from severe mechanical problems due to design flaws. Read up on the road march to Kursk, three of them self destructed due to internal fires and nearly half broke down. The Sherman was mechanically very reliable and easily a match for the Pz III and IV that make up the vast majority of the German forces. A typical case of is it better to have one great tank or ten mediocre ones.

As to a link between the Panther and the post war Leopard ... everyone learned from the design of the T-34, which the Panther was based on, so indirectly the Leopard was a direct result of the Panther, but not in the way most people would think. Tank (and aircraft) design, like any other sort, learns and benefits from whats been done previously.

[IronDuke99]

Tank (and aircraft) production is never as easy as it seems on paper.

Sure you can whip up a set of blueprints in a few days/weeks and a prototype in a few months. But then the fun begins.


Yep, F35 anyone...

[DRG]

For example the ME 262 jet fully operational, as a fighter, in late 1943-early 1944 (and that might have created problems for even the Western Allies in the real WWII, given that out of all the Allies only the Brits had an operational Jet, the Gloster Meteor in WWII).

As an Aside I am always struck that Gloster Aircraft produced the RAF's last biplane fighter, the Gladiator that saw action in WWII and the RAF's first jet Fighter the Meteor by 1944...


Yes it would have but it doesn't change the fact that the Atomic bomb was ready August 1945 and defeating Nazi Germany always the Allied Priority. Hamburg is as viable a target as Hiroshima and a lot easier to get to. There is no question it would have been used there first if the war had dragged on. Germany was lucky it ended there in May

Don

[scorpio_rocks]

Yes it would have but it doesn't change the fact that the Atomic bomb was ready August 1945 and defeating Nazi Germany always the Allied Priority. Hamburg is as viable a target as Hiroshima and a lot easier to get to. There is no question it would have been used there first if the war had dragged on. Germany was lucky it ended there in May

Couldn't it be argued that the allies wouldn't have had the Bomb at all without the research, materials and knowledge of the German scientists they "coerced" into helping after V-E day?

[DRG]

Don't think so. If they had been in a postion to use it becasue the war was dragging on and there were no allied troops inside Germany borders I don't belive there is any doubt it would have been used there first.

[MarkSheppard]

Here's my attempt at a Ju 290 (with LBMs included), plus some LBMs for the 252.

The 290 has a 95m3 cargo bay with about 52.5m2 of loading area.

This compares with the roughly 140m3 cargo bay and 51.37 m2 loading area of a C-130.

[MarkSheppard]

I think the ideal post-war German transport (as a starting point) would be the Arado 232A/B series:

LINK (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arado_Ar_232)

Ten were built and used during the war to shuttle parts from plant to plant inside Germany in an operational transport role.

----------

Any discussion on post-war Nazi Germany's military has got to incorporate the fact that more so than other nations, there were independent satrapies within the state hierarchy operating as they mostly saw fit; e.g. the SS state within a state.

While every nation has a bit of this with favored contractors (Boeing for heavy jet bombers for the USAF), the Germans went a bit overboard with it.

With tanks alone, you've got:

Henschel
Krupp
Porsche
Daimler Benz
MAN

And parts might be mixed and matched from various manufacturers to get what they wanted -- e.g. Krupp turret and Henschel hull (Tiger I), while manufacturers might order production expecting the order (Porsche Tiger), only to be left having to find a use for them (remanufactured into Ferdinand/Elefants).

Peacetime development would alleviate a lot of this craziness by reducing the pressure on design teams; but it'd still be there.

[IronDuke99]

Don't think so. If they had been in a postion to use it becasue the war was dragging on and there were no allied troops inside Germany borders I don't belive there is any doubt it would have been used there first.

Agreed, if allied troops were outside Germany.

I don't think captured German scientists had all that much affect on the early A bombs. Germans who left because of Nazi religious and racial policy did though...

[MarkSheppard]

Here's the Arado 232A (2 engine) and Arado 232B (4 engine). LBMs for both are included as well.

[MarkSheppard]

Speaking of design teams; here's a rough listing of how much was made for the Luftwaffe 1939-1945:

LINK (http://web.archive.org/web/20040225072109/http://members.aol.com:80/forcountry/ww2/gma.htm)

I took the liberty of computing the numbers for just 1939-1943 to give an idea of who would have been on top in the timeline resulting in RecruitMonty's mod (1944-45 is an abnormal situation for the purposes of this mod).

Junkers: 18,019 aircraft, of which the majority (53%) is the Ju-88. But they are very diversified, with 2,469 transports (Ju-52,Ju-252,Ju-290,Ju-352) and 3,869 Ju-87 Stukas being built.

Messerschmidt: 17,853 aircraft, of which the majority (76%) are Bf-109s. Remainder of their product line is largely fighters (Bf-110, Me 210, Me 410).

Focke-Wulf: 6,584 aircraft, of which majority (83%) are FW-190 derivatives.

Heinkel: 5,761 aircraft, of which 85% are He-111 bombers.

Dornier: 2,330 aircraft, of which majority (58%) are Do 217 Bombers followed by 20% Do 17.

Henschel: 1,149 aircraft, of which 55% are Hs129 Strafers.

Gotha: 43 aircraft, of which 100% are Go 244 transports.

Likely prospects Post War: The Big Four (Junkers, Messerschmidt, Focke-Wulf and Heinkel) are likely to swallow up smaller competitors as the cost of military aircraft gets bigger and bigger with the coming of the Late Jet Age (1950s), then the first airborne computers (late 1950s, early 1960s).

According to Flying Magazine Sep 1945; it took the US in 1939 about 150,000 engineering man hours to bring a heavy bomber to just beyond prototype stage; but this had been increased to 1.5 million man hours for the B-29 at the same stage of development; so you can see where this is going.

[Imp]

Its quite interesting watching peoples rational for where things would have gone & trying to base it on history.

First you have to take DRGs post & rationalise the atomic bomb never worked as Germany would have been the first target if things did not go the way they did.

Marks post with regards to manufacturing & Suhiirs about Panther being flawed also possibly hold little merit.
German designs at the start of the war were okay, Panther was good & fixed as best as a nation in industrial crisis probably could.
It was most likely rushed into service because Germany had limited manpower so better equipment would help alleviate that. The guy in charge had lost his marbles by then & pushed stuff into service ready or not I would guess. So what happens when he is dead & a more level head to R&D takes over.

Yes you can generalise to a degree using Suhiirs post Panther vs Sherman
USA take their time develop reliable easy to manufacture equipment, its a if not the main criteria.
Brits etc a more Ad Hoc approach possibly
Germany did make more (overly) complex stuff but if they had less "silly projects" & they were not rushed into service who knows how good they could have been.

Germany would have had to be at the forefront of new ammo & armour & engine research using different materials because they didn't have enough to maintain the war till it ended let alone if it extended.

Actually thinking about it if the war had gone on another 6 months or so the German Army of the early 50s would have been just the same as it was in real life.
Very little artillery because there are no shells to fire & hardly any vehicles because there was nothing to run them on even if they could manage somehow to keep production going.

[RecruitMonty]

Guys, the "Bah" was more of a general "hey wait, maybe we're getting sidetracked a little too much and talking a bit too much about alternate counterfactuals, plausibilities, instead of RecruitMonty's mod?"

I hope that RecruitMonty will be happy to see his interesting mod generating discussion and interest on here. I very strongly suspect the more interest and discussion the more people might take a look at and use the mod...

I wasn't expecting it but I'm chuffed about it. :)

[RecruitMonty]

Don't think so. If they had been in a postion to use it becasue the war was dragging on and there were no allied troops inside Germany borders I don't belive there is any doubt it would have been used there first.

Agreed, if allied troops were outside Germany.

I don't think captured German scientists had all that much affect on the early A bombs. Germans who left because of Nazi religious and racial policy did though...

Germany was close to developing the A-Bomb. Some say the second US bomb was "made in Germany" - at least the raw materials. In 45 the US was still a long way off from being able to mass produce nuclear weapons. I believe you underestimate the destructive power of regular bombing on the Reich from 42-45. The same goes for the German peoples' will to resist. It took two A-bombs to knock Japan out - on top of everything else - and the US would not have been able to come up with a third so quick.

What is one more city in a war for survival?

[RecruitMonty]

I should perhaps say I am not against this mod in any way (I have even downloaded it). I am just against the idea Hitler could have invaded Britain, or have forced her to make peace.

If I were going to do the -alternative- history I might base it on UK and France calling Hitlers bluff at Munich and the German General Staff removing Hitler at that point - as a good many of them planned, had war broken out in 1938- and then producing what would have been a right wing, but rather more democratic German Government, perhaps even including a return of a Kaiser (but perhaps in a more constitutional form) as many German soldiers desired, and coupled with an end to the vile, evil, and totally stupid, Nazi race laws.

In 1938 Germany, by then including Austria, certainly could have got peace on the removal of Hitler, and the other Nazis, from power.

Germany could continue to expand her military. Britain and France would have done likewise. Czechoslovakia and Poland would continue in the game, as would Great Britain and the Empire, France and Stalin's USSR, the USA, Japan and Italy.

Germany might still want to expand, but without a madman and a group of vile, evil, thugs leading the country and minus the racial/religious genocide and cold blooded deliberate, industrial, murder of millions of men, women and children.

Now on that basis it might make some sort of sense and in a German-Soviet war -without racial/religious genocide or the deliberate killing of civilians and POW's by Germany, Germany might even get allies not just within the USSR but outside it, since prior to 1939 Stalin had killed a lot more civilians than Germany had and the USSR was hardly popular in Western Europe.

What you have to give up on is Germany building a fleet. If she tries to then the British Empire becomes her enemy -because it has to to survive- and Germany cannot win that naval war as 1914-18 and 1939-45 proved beyond any doubt.

Germany, in the 1930's, minus Hitler and the Nazis, can make the British Empire and the USA, more or less, genuinely neutral, in the East, if she either avoids commitments to Japan or gets Japan to also look East and north and not South.

Mind you the USA had a fairly odd commitment to China in those days, that I have never seen much sense in, beyond the awful Japanese atrocities like their vile behaviour in Nanking in 1937.

Still food for thought I hope...

Of course, I have made my own thoughts about an alternate history. Many in fact - hence the different versions of the OOB. I thought, however, that it would be better if people came up with their own story.

Regarding the Eastern Front. There would not be Ukrainian "Nazis" fighting Russians in the Donetsk region at the moment if the Nazis had not been able to make friends with the locals. There were legions of Europeans - east and west alike - who were more than happy to go and fight the Bolsheviks. Don't always believe the hype.

[RecruitMonty]

Would you folks mind posting some screenshots up of your various battles etc with the mod? I think the community might like seeing them. I don't have a clue how to otherwise I'd have done so already.

[MarkSheppard]

Likely prospects Post War: The Big Four (Junkers, Messerschmidt, Focke-Wulf and Heinkel) are likely to swallow up smaller competitors as the cost of military aircraft gets bigger and bigger with the coming of the Late Jet Age (1950s), then the first airborne computers (late 1950s, early 1960s).

Then again, this may not be the actual result. In the United States; Curtiss-Wright produced 29,269 airplanes and employed 180,000 workers and was #2 in total contracts awarded just behind General Motors.

Yet Curtiss-Wright's last plane made for the US military was the XF-87 Blackhawk in 1948; with the entire airplane division of Curtiss-Wright being sold 100% to North American Aviation after the F-87 contracts were cancelled.

Likewise, McDonnell Aircraft Corporation started in 1939 and spent most of WW2 being a major parts subcontractor for the bigger primes; and produced a few prototype aircraft, then got big with the jet age in aviation and then swallowed Douglas Aircraft to become McDonnell Douglas.

Then there's internal politics: the German aviation industry is pretty much a deliberate creation of the Reich Air Ministry (RLM); so politics is a big thing in it -- in May 1941, Milch managed to bring Junkers, Messerschmitt and Heinkel under near-direct RLM control by:

*Using the dud of the Me210 to force Willy Messerschmidt from managerial control

*Ending the RLM practice of advance payments for aircraft yet to be delivered to cause a financial crisis at Heinkel, to force Ernst Heinkel out of management.

*Forcing Junkers' chairman Heinrich Koppenberg, into retirement.

So there's a lot of room for flavor here for the late 1950s and early 1960s stuff; e.g. you might as well see the Me 910 Gerfalke instead of the MBB Gerfalke (Slots 764-769 in OBAT35 - Grossdeutsches Reich); as the mergers of Messerschmitt with Bölkow and Blohm + Voss might never happen -- or the corporate identities of the two lesser units are subsumed by the larger company, as what happened with North American Rockwell / Rockwell International and Boeing -- the NAA/Rockwell identity was destroyed in Boeing, to the point that Boeing basically threw away a good portion of the North American Rockwell archives in dumpsters following the merger.

[MarkSheppard]

There is no question it would have been used there first if the war had dragged on. Germany was lucky it ended there in May[/COLOR]

Don

Apparently, sometime in December 1944, as the Battle of the Bulge was reaching it's peak; FDR asked Groves if the bomb could be ready soon [tm] through speeded up research for tactical use against German spearheads.

The answer was no, but we'd have it ready by about August 1945.

Groves related some of this in a news interview in 1965 following publication of his book NOW IT CAN BE TOLD.

[MarkSheppard]

Here's some splash screen(s) for the next release:

They go in your DAS_REICH\Game Data\Graphics folder.

LINK to 1.4~ MB ZIP on my server (http://alternatewars.com/Games/SPanther/DASREICH_SPLASH.zip)

For those of you who don't feel like downloading a file just to see what it looks like; see attachment to this post.

[scorpio_rocks]

Here's some splash screen(s) for the next release:

Nice! :)

[RecruitMonty]

Very nice!

[RecruitMonty]

I'm just a "straight up" baseline game player, though this mod has intrigued me over the years. That being said, does this mod have and build onto the ARADO 234 BLITZ? The 234B-2 being the definitive operational model to see combat before the wars end. it was classified as a single seat reconnaissance bomber and would have been operational around Sep/Oct 1944 with 214 total models built.

Some quick facts: Powerplant: 2 Junkers Jumo 109-004B-1 Orkan (Hurricane) turbojets. Speed: 461mph@19,685ft./438mph@sea level. Armament: 2 Defensive aft firing fuselage mounted 15.1mm MG 151 or 20mm MG151/20 cannons with 250/200 rounds per gun respectively. Offensive bomb load 2,204lbs/3,307lbs with rocket assist "drop" motors. Range: based on previous corresponding bomb loads 1,013 miles/684 miles. It had a high ceiling and was a very advanced plane to include a fully functional pilot ejection seat system. If needed or wanted I have all the rest of the specs as well. It's just you never hear about this one because it wasn't as "exciting" as the Me-163 KOMET (COMET) or the Me-262 SCHWALBE (SWALLOW).

Let me know in the meantime I think I'll check into something elsewhere. ;)

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

It's more fun with Pics:
14153 14154

14155 14156

14157

It does indeed. I used the B and C models. The C model has four jet engines instead of two. Nice payloads as well.

I also included the He. 343, the Ar. 560 ("4" and "11" config.) and the Ju. 132. Also the post-war Ju. 150 (IRL: Junkers EF-150) makes an appearance along with an extrapolated design: Ju. 152/II/4 (IRL: Junkers EF-152).

[DRG]

Here's some splash screen(s) for the next release:

They go in your DAS_REICH\Game Data\Graphics folder.

LINK to 1.4~ MB ZIP on my server (http://alternatewars.com/Games/SPanther/DASREICH_SPLASH.zip)

For those of you who don't feel like downloading a file just to see what it looks like; see attachment to this post.

The problem with this is neither Shrapnel Games nor Camo Workshop are "presenting" this mod in any way other than providing a space for discussions about it in our mods sub forum, so it is both inaccurate and misleading to suggest we are "presenting" it


Don

[MarkSheppard]

The problem with this is neither Shrapnel Games nor Camo Workshop are "presenting" this mod in any way other than providing a space for discussions about it in our mods sub forum, so it is both inaccurate and misleading to suggest we are "presenting" it

Apologies. Here's a fixed version without the "presenting" splash screen.

LINK to V2 of Splash Screens (http://alternatewars.com/Games/SPanther/DASREICH_SPLASH_V2.zip)

I also rearranged some of the MCPPic used for the GAME OPTIONS program so that you can read the text better on each screen.

[RecruitMonty]

Here's some splash screen(s) for the next release:

They go in your DAS_REICH\Game Data\Graphics folder.

LINK to 1.4~ MB ZIP on my server (http://alternatewars.com/Games/SPanther/DASREICH_SPLASH.zip)

For those of you who don't feel like downloading a file just to see what it looks like; see attachment to this post.

The problem with this is neither Shrapnel Games nor Camo Workshop are "presenting" this mod in any way other than providing a space for discussions about it in our mods sub forum, so it is both inaccurate and misleading to suggest we are "presenting" it


Don

Agreed. I didn't catch that the first time around. Just saw the tanks. Best just attribute it to the modder.

[MarkSheppard]

Suggestion for next release:

Clone OBAT44 after you're done making the "master" copy into OBAT42, so that Luftwaffe Paratroopers, etc can be selected as CAPTURED or ALLIED for scenarios dated 1/1946 to 5/1949.

And here's something for the Mountain troops; the Fa.223Z (or Fa.223Da); which was "Plan B" for heavy VTOL lifting from 1943 onwards apparently, when the original "Plan A", the Fa 284 kind of sputtered out.

Link to site on Fa 284 (http://tofast2.0lx.net/germanvtol/fockeachgiles/284folder/fa284.html)

The Fa284 would have been powered by two BMW 801 at 1,600 hp each for 3,200 hp total, for a maximum liftoff weight of 12,000 kg and an empty weight of 8,165 kg; for a payload of about 2,000 kg. A later development apparently upgraded the engines to 2,000 hp each, raising MTOW to 16,000 kg and freight load to 7,000 kg.

[RecruitMonty]

I'd rather not do that. I'm trying to leave as small a footprint outside of 35 and 44 as possible. Also 42 contains a few useful units itself - monitors, 88s, Cavalry.

At the moment the easiest way around this problem is simply to set the scenario up in late 1949 - buy the units needed from OOB 44 and then when your done reset the dates to what you actually wanted.

What the heck is that thing? Looks like a "Drache" on steroids!

I think the Fa. 284 is more aesthetically pleasing. Would you mind awfully making one or should I have a go at it? I'm pleased we found these because they compliment the regular transport helicopters I already have really well. There was a gap there and now its been closed. :)

[MarkSheppard]

Then there's the FA 283 (http://tofast2.0lx.net/germanvtol/fockeachgiles/283folder/fa283.html) an apparent jet powered gyrodyne, which could be used as the basis for a series of German light utility/attack helicopters in the 1960s.

[RecruitMonty]

Then there's the FA 283 (http://tofast2.0lx.net/germanvtol/fockeachgiles/283folder/fa283.html) an apparent jet powered gyrodyne, which could be used as the basis for a series of German light utility/attack helicopters in the 1960s.

I had seen that too. What an interesting design. I wonder if it is feasible? It screams attack helicopter. Only problem is it is jet powered and in the mid 1940s that meant high fuel consumption.

The flight characteristics would be peculiar as well I imagine.

[MarkSheppard]

I had seen that too. What an interesting design. I wonder if it is feasible? It screams attack helicopter. Only problem is it is jet powered and in the mid 1940s that meant high fuel consumption.

Well, I look at it in the same way the Messerschmitt P.1101 in 1945 was studied heavily by Bell for the X-5 of 1951 that tested different wing geometries in flight, which eventually led to the F-111A of 1964, the MiG-23 of 1967, and the Tornado of 1974.

So figure the Fa 283 V0 flies in maybe 1947 or 1948 and has some intruiging characteristics, like hitting an extremely high top speed for a VTOL/STOL craft, but poor payload performance from a dead stop (no power to rotor apparently) and high fuel consumption kind of do it in.

Eventually it's reworked circa 1949 or 1950 into the Fa.283 V1 which turns it from a simple gyrodyne into a compound helicopter by the addition of a 100-200 hp piston engine in the fuselage which turns the rotor; significantly improving payload carrying capability from a dead stop and other low speed flight characteristics. But the piston engine takes up too much room in the fuselage.

A couple years pass; and in 1952 or 1953, they re-work it again into the Fa.283 V2 which uses a 500 SHP turboshaft engine adopted from an experimental turboprop. The turboshaft is pretty bulky compared to modern (c.1960s) turboshafts, but it's significantly less weight and bulk than the piston engine.

Suddenly, it's possible to have a useful fuselage payload. Also, maybe around this time, they also replace the jet with a turboprop engine; and from there on, you have the family tree that leads to your "Von Cheyenne" that's in the game as the Do.410.

[RecruitMonty]

Prior to the 410 you have the 407 too. A design from 1966. http://files.activeboard.com/965622?AWSAccessKeyId=1XXJBWHKN0QBQS6TGPG2&Expires=1460592000&Signature=W478czWsDSeGaZy9TetW7RbYRJc%3D

[IronDuke99]

The problem I can see with this, if you will forgive me, is if you allow almost every German Prototype, let alone drawing board idea, to become a real weapons system, then you have to do more or less the same for other nations too, or you are giving the Germans an advantage they never actually had or could have had.

In reality US, British-Commonwealth and Soviet Russian weapon development all slowed down from about Spring 1945, since Japan never could have held out all that long after the fall of Germany, with, or even without, an US/allied 'A' Bomb.

So to do this, with any realism, you also need to look at Allied paper projects or, at least Prototypes, and turn the best of them into real weapons...

[IronDuke99]

To give an example of what I mean: In a alternate world where Germany is still a very powerful, agressive, nation then projects like the US Sabre F86, Russian Mig 15 and British Hawker Hunter all need to be moved up in time. Germany would never have the field to itself.

[Suhiir]

I'd be inclined to ignore paper projects entirely. Some of them (such as Project Habakkuk - the iceberg aircraft carrier) while actually technically feasible required such an outlay of resources as to make them impractical.

The same goes for early prototypes (i.e. non-functioning mock-ups).

Stuff that actually had a (reasonably) functional prototype in testing I could see.

[scorpio_rocks]

The problem I can see with this, if you will forgive me, is if you allow almost every German Prototype, let alone drawing board idea, to become a real weapons system, then you have to do more or less the same for other nations too, or you are giving the Germans an advantage they never actually had or could have had.

So to do this, with any realism, you also need to look at Allied paper projects or, at least Prototypes, and turn the best of them into real weapons...

This HAS been redressed a little with the inclusion of Soviet and other Heavy Tanks and a few "Paper Tigers".

Of course that would also be an inordinate amount of work! :eek:

[RecruitMonty]

I had a really detailed and good reply to this but my ****ing mouse decided to click on the wrong damn button (one of these Microsoft super mice with too much technology and piss poor interface).

Long story short.

Download the mod, (if you haven't already), look at what the Germans actually get, think for a second about the fact that most post-war projects in aviation, rocketry etc were pinched German designs / know-how and ask yourself just why design "slackened" from mid 45 onward for a while. I'll give you a clue - there was no one left to catch up with.

If you want to close the tech gap vis-à-vis E-75 and up then one bright spark who is mean with a virtual paint-brush can knock out some "Kitty-Killers". I'll do the rest.

The German kit is almost all based on designs that were going to be introduced. The rest is extrapolation very much within the realm of balance (you need to have a point of reference when you design an AFV from scratch and have in most cases nix to go on and that point of reference is invariably other kit from other oobs) and realism.

If you like I could put in some flying saucers. :D

The Do. 407 is already in the mod. I included it because the mod is already too full with analogue designs when it comes to helicopters.

[MarkSheppard]

To give an example of what I mean: In a alternate world where Germany is still a very powerful, agressive, nation then projects like the US Sabre F86, Russian Mig 15 and British Hawker Hunter all need to be moved up in time. Germany would never have the field to itself.

The Ta-183 Huckbein, F-86, MiG-15 and Hunter would all cluster around the same time introduction (late 1940s), even with accelerated wartime development due to the peculiar characteristics of swept wings -- they're less forgiving of wing mismatches than straight winged aircraft -- in other words, the left/right wings have to be much closer to each other dimensionally than with a straight winged aircraft, or else one wing will stall before the other and cause a nasty spin.

Plus you're starting to encounter Mach Tuck in level flight (previously only encountered in high speed piston aircraft in dives), where your controls become steadily heavier and non-responsive as speed increases, and the nose drops and/or your controls reverse. Defeating that needs a lot of research into trans-sonic aerodynamics (and dead test pilots).

[MarkSheppard]

I had a really detailed and good reply to this but my ****ing mouse decided to click on the wrong damn button (one of these Microsoft super mice with too much technology and piss poor interface).

COMRADE. Microsoft Notepad is your saviour!

(type lengthy replies in it, then cut and paste into your browser window).

Download the mod, (if you haven't already)

**ADVERTISEMENT FOR THOSE FOLLOWING THIS THREAD**

DAS REICH 1.0P, 120 MB ZIP (http://alternatewars.com/Games/SPanther/WinSP_DasReich1-0p.zip)

**END ADVERTISEMENT**

look at what the Germans actually get, think for a second about the fact that most post-war projects in aviation, rocketry etc were pinched German designs / know-how and ask yourself just why design "slackened" from mid 45 onward for a while. I'll give you a clue - there was no one left to catch up with.

I wouldn't go as far as that, but the one field that the Germans were undisputably the leader in was liquid propellant rocketry -- every major rocket since 1945 traces it's lineage to the A-4/V-2.

If you want to close the tech gap vis-à-vis E-75 and up then one bright spark who is mean with a virtual paint-brush can knock out some "Kitty-Killers". I'll do the rest.

That can be arranged. :D

If you like I could put in some flying saucers. :D

See attached :D

AVRO Canada was very big on saucer-like aircraft.

EDIT: I could SWEAR someone at some point did an Avro saucer icon.

[MarkSheppard]

Monty, I love it when I find surprises.

I was about to suggest the Ka-22 LINK (http://www.aviastar.org/helicopters_eng/ka-22.php) and Ka-34 LINK (http://www.aviastar.org/helicopters_eng/ka-34.php) as an analogue for German heavy rotorcraft; and I was going to build the icon, and while looking for something else, I found an icon you did in 2007 as a Christmas present. :p

[MarkSheppard]

And here's something for when you do the vassal states of Neu Europe: some Hetzer variants I chopped out using the stock SPCAMO icons as a base.

[troopie]

So that means that I have work to do on the Atlantean Orbat. Instead of waiting until 1947 to finish the switch to the E-1943 Esetsi Assault Rifle, it will have to be done by 1945's end. The Talburath LATV will have to be ready by 1946, so will the Lehoineraile Attack Helo. The navalised Samhara SAM, the aircraft carrier version of the Pantera, the AB-45-A swept wing jet fighter (one prototype was built but never flown. The project was cancelled) the ABB-101 jet bomber, (one mockup) the Kaibion LRGM, basically a guided cruise missile, The Erainilorna a Numinor 2 class battleship mounting 504mm guns and the Kaibion missile will all have to be built. There are many other weapons projects that were slowed down or cancelled that must be revived.

Also that super secret at**1c b**b project will have to be sped up.

troopie

[RecruitMonty]

And here's something for when you do the vassal states of Neu Europe: some Hetzer variants I chopped out using the stock SPCAMO icons as a base.

At present I have no plans to make OOBs for the "Vassal States". OOB 44's name folder contains an admixture of French, Scandinavian and Dutch names (which cover most of the immediate neighbours of the Reich).

If you want to make scenarios with "Vassal States" - I have - then all you need to do is take the regular unit and then play around with the equipment. Works well for Vichy France, for instance. Spain and Italy are not too much trouble either. You just give them some German kit to replace American AFVs etc and keep the locally produced stuff.

Those icons are nice. Although they are not to scale with the Hetzers / E-10s I am using. I may knock something together.

[RecruitMonty]

Monty, I love it when I find surprises.

I was about to suggest the Ka-22 LINK (http://www.aviastar.org/helicopters_eng/ka-22.php) and Ka-34 LINK (http://www.aviastar.org/helicopters_eng/ka-34.php) as an analogue for German heavy rotorcraft; and I was going to build the icon, and while looking for something else, I found an icon you did in 2007 as a Christmas present. :p

Haha! That old beast. Still got it saved away in both configurations. It was a lot of fun to make.

[RecruitMonty]

I guess so. I take it the Atlanteans are luke-warm towards the Reich?

[Warhero]

Btw, Pionierpanzer 1 icon is "empty" in battle generator. Can anyone tell me it's number (I can fix it myself w/ Mobhack)? And why Mobhack don't show icons at all (I can't "roll" them and search right icon)?

Warhero

[RecruitMonty]

Btw, Pionierpanzer 1 icon is "empty" in battle generator. Can anyone tell me it's number (I can fix it myself w/ Mobhack)? And why Mobhack don't show icons at all (I can't "roll" them and search right icon)?

Warhero

Could you be a bit more specific? When you quit mobhack do you get an error message? Which OOB? Which version? Third Reich? Kaiserreich?

In all cases the correct icons are 7733, 7734 and 7735. Mine - which as far as I know - are the same as the ones I uploaded - are all present and correct.

Sounds like you cocked the installation up a bit if you can't see any icons at all.

[troopie]

I guess so. I take it the Atlanteans are luke-warm towards the Reich?

It depends on the Reich. Relations between the Kingdom and the Empire were quite friendly. Atlantis was neutral in WW1 and the Germans tried not to sink Atlantean ships. If they did, the protest was always met with an apology and an offer of compensation.

troopie

[Warhero]

I mean Pionierpanzer 1 in Grossdeutches Reich OOB, version 1.0 (latest?). Thanks about icon numbers. I will try them.

Warhero

[Warhero]

Edit function seems not to work... Problem is winter icon (7735) which is empty. Others are ok. So, can I change that winter icon into some another?

Warhero

[IronDuke99]

Don't think so. If they had been in a postion to use it becasue the war was dragging on and there were no allied troops inside Germany borders I don't belive there is any doubt it would have been used there first.

I have been thinking about this and I wonder if the Western Allies would have used an A Bomb on Nazi Germany all that easily, unless they thought Germany was at all close to developing her own -when they most certainly would have, merely to get in before Hitler used his.

Germany had millions of slave workers, many from western nations, not to mention large numbers of Western Allied POWS, so I think the war has to be going very badly for the Western Allies, and very well for Germany, for an A bomb, or bombs get to be dropped there. Especially since conventional raids on Germany were devarstating city, after city (as they were also doing in Japan). There were not many Atomic bombs available in 1945-46 and no one much wanted to invade Japan...

[Warhero]

FYI:Sorry disinformation in my previous message. I noticed that Pionierpanzer 1 AND 2 don't appear during battle (and in Encyclopedia too). I tried to change winter icon by converting it with summer icon in Mobhack but no success:(... Can anyone else confirm this? Any help?

Warhero

[RecruitMonty]

You are probably the only person who is experiencing this problem. Did you install ICON0183.shp? The old copy needs to be overwritten and you need to replace the British OOB with the modified one. That is all you need to do to fix this.

[Warhero]

I installed mod just as instructions said. But I got finally that icon converted with "new" icon (2466). Ok it's just summer icon but enough for me;)... I had to make one "trick" to search/find it;).

Warhero

[RecruitMonty]

I installed mod just as instructions said. But I got finally that icon converted with "new" icon (2466). Ok it's just summer icon but enough for me;)... I had to make one "trick" to search/find it;).

Warhero

Are you sure? Check to see if Icon183 was in fact over written. The icon you are using for the Pionierpanzer 1 is the wrong one. If the icon183 is properly installed then it should appear as such.

[RecruitMonty]

Don't think so. If they had been in a postion to use it becasue the war was dragging on and there were no allied troops inside Germany borders I don't belive there is any doubt it would have been used there first.

I have been thinking about this and I wonder if the Western Allies would have used an A Bomb on Nazi Germany all that easily, unless they thought Germany was at all close to developing her own -when they most certainly would have, merely to get in before Hitler used his.

Germany had millions of slave workers, many from western nations, not to mention large numbers of Western Allied POWS, so I think the war has to be going very badly for the Western Allies, and very well for Germany, for an A bomb, or bombs get to be dropped there. Especially since conventional raids on Germany were devarstating city, after city (as they were also doing in Japan). There were not many Atomic bombs available in 1945-46 and no one much wanted to invade Japan...

So what? The Americans tested nukes well within reach of their own troops who were in little more than fox holes in the 50s. It is said they only figured out the dangers posed by radiation much later.

[MarkSheppard]

It is said they only figured out the dangers posed by radiation much later.

During the Manhattan Project, fallout wasn't actually even taken seriously or known if at all -- hence the disbelief by Groves about radiation casualties at Hiroshima and Nagasaki in late August 1945 when Japanese news started talking about it.

Essentially in the Manhattan Project, radiation poisoning was considered to only be a danger to those within the prompt zone of the bomb -- e.g. those within 700 to 1000 meters of the device when it initiated -- and subject to about 10,000 Rads (100 Grays) of instantaneous ionizing radiation from the fission reaction itself.

This was considered to be of minor interest, as that zone nearly neatly overlapped the 20 PSI radius (600 meters out), where

"Heavily built concrete buildings are severely damaged or demolished."

Also, unlike TRINITY (100 foot tower), the Japanese attacks were airbursts at several thousand feet above ground level, so weren't considered to be at danger for causing a lot of contaminated ground.

Reference: (Groves disbelief of Japanese Radiation Poisoning)
Telephone Conversation between General Groves and Lt. Col. Rea, Oak Ridge Hospital, 9:00 a.m., 25 August 1945. (http://alternatewars.com/WW2/WW2_Documents/War_Department/MED/Groves_Rea_25_August.htm)

[Suhiir]

There was a rather steep and expensive learning curve when it came to the side effects of both nuclear and chemical weapons. No one had a clue what the long-term effects would be and there's no way to study them until you actually have someone with them. They certainly didn't have access to modern research techniques and devices.

Keep in mind during WW II people didn't take noncombatant casualties into account nearly as much as we do today. One may as well feel morally outraged about Roman slavery as WW II attitudes.

[Warhero]

Hmm intersting. Icon 183 seems to be Patton (M48?) summer icon... Well should I remove all "defaults" (which came with original MBT) and install only mod icons instead?

[scorpio_rocks]

Hmm intersting. Icon 183 seems to be Patton (M48?) summer icon... Well should I remove all "defaults" (which came with original MBT) and install only mod icons instead?

You need to replace the original icon files, with those provided in the mod - the 49 of the ICON0nnn.shp files in the game data/graphics folder. The unaltered files should be left in place.

[cbreedon]

Played the game for the 1st time yesterday. I was the SS in 1946 against the Soviets. I liked it alot. You guys put a hell of an effort into it and I appreciate it.

I did notice one thing. It seems like the Soviets did not have the hordes of men that they throw at the Germans in Winsp WWII. It was still challenging but I only played one meeting engagement. Maybe I'll try a defend and see how that goes.

Either way I am sure I will be putting in quite a few hours on this one :-)

[Warhero]

Btw I used 3rd Reich oob at first time today:P... No any icon problem seen (yet). Looks good overall:).

[MarkSheppard]

So that means that I have work to do on the Atlantean Orbat.

[snip]



Slight hyjack here (I hope RecruitMonty doesn't mind, LOL). But I tossed the Atlantean WW2 OBAT into MOBHack and I'm looking at it now, and I'm a little interested in the backstory you invented for Atlantis -- there seems to be a lot 'unsaid' in the OOBs (WW2 and Modern) and the files attached to them.

Like what was the history of Atlantis? What do all the names mean? :p

[MarkSheppard]

Monty, here's some (semi) convergent evolution based upon the same requirement -- massive firepower in a compact armored package.

US T31 (or is it T34) Demolition Tank = 105mm Howitzer, plus two rocket launchers on either side, capable of being reloaded from under armor.

German Pz IV project to use 7.5cm Recoilless Rifles. Attached is an icon that got done uh, ten years ago for the RGW Mod for SPWW2v2 DOS. Maybe you can use it for inspiration.

[Warhero]

Btw, is it any way possible to add both (2Reich and 3Reich) oobs into game (and flags too) at same time? Just using Red/Green or someboby else oobs for them?

Just asking:P

Warhero

[RecruitMonty]

Btw, is it any way possible to add both (2Reich and 3Reich) oobs into game (and flags too) at same time? Just using Red/Green or someboby else oobs for them?

Just asking:P

Warhero

I wouldn't recommend that. You'd be replacing four OOBs for next to no effect.

[troopie]

So that means that I have work to do on the Atlantean Orbat.

[snip]



Slight hyjack here (I hope RecruitMonty doesn't mind, LOL). But I tossed the Atlantean WW2 OBAT into MOBHack and I'm looking at it now, and I'm a little interested in the backstory you invented for Atlantis -- there seems to be a lot 'unsaid' in the OOBs (WW2 and Modern) and the files attached to them.

Like what was the history of Atlantis? What do all the names mean? :p
Did you get the private message I sent you answering this? I ask because it wasn't in my 'Sent Box' and I don't want to derail RecruitMonty's thread too much.

troopie

[Warhero]

I wouldn't recommend that. You'd be replacing four OOBs for next to no effect.[/QUOTE]

I think it could be better add 2 other oobs into Red/Green (for example) than change 2 oobs all time (depending of course about player's own willing to play as 2Reich/3Reich oobs):re:... But I like to play with both sets;). Okay using Red map will be more mountain terrain but it can be changed easily into more suitable map. So it's not big problem? Another thing is possible icon "mess" by using both 2Reich/3Reich (just speculation I admit)... Any risk exist?

Just 2 cents

Warhero

[RecruitMonty]

No "icon mess" as such as both variants of 35 are identical in that regard.

[RecruitMonty]

UPDATE!

The mod is at present not compatible with MBT Version 10. I am looking into whether or not it is possible to aleviate this situation. I cannot however make any promises at this time.

[Warhero]

Fortunately I left my another copy (Das Reich) WinSPMBT alone as version 9;)... But in the end of day, what new things version 10 can add into Das Reich mod?

Warhero

[scorpio_rocks]

Fortunately I left my another copy (Das Reich) WinSPMBT alone as version 9;)... But in the end of day, what new things version 10 can add into Das Reich mod?

Warhero

It isn't V10 adding stuff into Das Reich - it is the new icons overwritting the files used for icons in the mod...

[Warhero]

Okay thanks about info. Great mod btw:)!

[RecruitMonty]

Hello Gents,

I'm almost done updating the mod. Just had a question. Someone, I believe it was MarkSheppard, supplied me with some lovely colour pictures of tanks as well as a background / title screen. Only trouble is I don't know what to do with them so that they appear in the game. Any ideas?

The update, when it is ready, will be a straight forward enough job to do.

I've copied all the files that remained the same from version 1.0P (text, ranks, names and a few odds and sods) and have filled in the gaps with all the new ones for 1.1P (which now works with version 10 of the game).

You have two choices. Make a clean copy of version 10 of MBT and then install version 1.1P of the mod over it or update the copy of mbt you installed the mod to with the version 10 patch of MBT and then install the 1.1P Update (April 2016) of the mod over it making sure you overwrite everything you need to overwrite in both cases.

Be sure to save your scenarios etc. Some of them may be broken as of this updapte as the icons were changed around for most of the turret-less units. Although when I fired up one of my scenarios after updating all seemed in order on the icon front at least. Just read the readme for the update and be sure to take a look in the general Readme too for new acknowledgements.

[scorpio_rocks]

Just had a question. Someone, I believe it was MarkSheppard, supplied me with some lovely colour pictures of tanks as well as a background / title screen. Only trouble is I don't know what to do with them so that they appear in the game. Any ideas?

The "Splash" screens are stored in the
...Shrapnel Games/Game Data/Pictures/Interface
folder.
Just replace the MCPPic, MCPPic1, MCPPic2, MCPPic3 files.

Mark's Links seem to be broken... Can get to his site but no longer seem to be able to find the screens or Das Reich files.

[MarkSheppard]

http://alternatewars.com/Games/SP/DASREICH_SPLASH_V2.zip
Splash v2

http://alternatewars.com/Games/SP/WinSP_DasReich1-0p.zip
DAS Reich 1.0P

I changed the URL from /Games/SPanthers to /Games/SP/

Sorry about that; but I intend to eventually put up an icon database, and I need to economize on URL length (even in 2016).

[RecruitMonty]

UPDATE:

Version 1.1P (compatible with WinSPMBT 10) is here!

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ayh13c8ikikaabp/AAC8mEGB_7YNE5ESv--6x2ona?dl=0

Now, who would like to help me develop and test some scenarios for the mod?

[MarkSheppard]

I've actually got an idea for a few scenarios. :angel

[RecruitMonty]

Here are three American strategic bombers.

The B36, a B52 in silver with stars and stripes on the wings and a B70.

I made these a while ago but I think you will like them.

[RecruitMonty]

I've actually got an idea for a few scenarios. :angel

Do tell :) ... ?

[MarkSheppard]

Here's a fixed version of ICON0188.shp -- the Ju 252 icons were off-color with incorrect palette conversions, losing a bit of detail. I re-input them into the SHP file and rebuilt their offsets, plus I made a modified color LBM for the Fa. 223Z.

[MarkSheppard]

This file contains 68 color LBMs that are a start at replacing the PM11211 - PM11485 LBM series that show up at random intervals on the game menu screens to add more immersion to DAS REICH.

[MarkSheppard]

Do tell :) ... ?

Switzerland Must Be Swallowed!
Gebirgsjäger Air Assault

Date: June 1948
Location: Switzerland

Essentially, the Swiss find out in a series of scenarios that their alpine redoubt(s) are no longer impregnable, once the Heer deploys air assault units with the first primitive helicopters -- I checked, and the majority of Switzerland is well within the payload capacity of the 1.5 generation of piston helicopters (at altitude).

[RecruitMonty]

Interesting idea. Keep them coming.

My machine is on its last legs at the moment. Its an HP Compaq 6730b. So it is quite long in the tooth. I've saved all the important stuff - SPMBT related files etc. As this one likes to over-heat - leading to a BSOD in one case - I'll likely have to get a new machine. Any suggestions?

[MarkSheppard]

I'll likely have to get a new machine. Any suggestions?

What's your budget? I recently put together a computer back in December 2015, and...I'd have to say, avoid build-your-own-PC now.

Apparently there's a 1-2% initial failure rate amongst PC components, so let the PC manufacturer find that out at the factory and fix it, rather than you be the one running back and forth to the nearest MicroCenter for parts.

(What happened was I think I got a motherboard with some bad parts, it could only recognize two out of four sticks of RAM in it; if you put more than 2 sticks in, it failed to boot/POST. If two or less, it booted. I didn't feel like taking everything out of the case to take the mobo out to see if it was bad, so I'll just wait until RAM prices fall enough to upgrade to 32GB (wanted that on four sticks, had to settle for 16GB on two sticks)

[scorpio_rocks]

I'll likely have to get a new machine. Any suggestions?
Decide what you want to do on it - word processing/winsp,etc or online gaming or whatever; desktop/laptop and buy the best (with the relevant stats) that your budget allows.

These days build your own is, as the other Mark quite rightly says, more of a hassle and in most cases no cheaper than buying from a reputable retailer.

[RecruitMonty]

Thanks for the advice, chaps. Wish me luck!

[MarkSheppard]

If you're buying a laptop, be very careful about what you buy!

They're no longer like 2005 or 2007, with easy-to-unscrew covers over the hard drive, CPU or memory locations, allowing easy upgrades/modernizations of the laptop -- virtually all laptops now shipping are sealed units -- if you want to replace the hard drive (if for example upgrading to a SSD), you have to unscrew the case, and take out the keyboard to get to the HDD cage.

There are still a few laptops that have HDD access ports, but they're the more high end lines, like Lenovo's high end ThinkPads.

So effectively in 2016, assume all laptops you buy are sealed for life units, if you're not able to examine them at the local electronics store for access ports on the bottom.

[MarkSheppard]

Apparently there's a 1-2% initial failure rate amongst PC components

To elaborate, an average 1.5% failure rate of components out the box doesn't sound so bad (98.5% Chance of each component working out of the box), but because your average PC needs about 6 to 7 major parts to work (CPU, Graphics Card (if discrete), Motherboard, CPU, RAM Stick 1, RAM stick 2, HDD/SSD, Power Supply), the probability of initial failure adds up quick, reducing your crude odds of everything working out of the box to about 89% or so.

That's...not really good odds to be honest.

[RecruitMonty]

I'll keep that in mind. I guess they are moving over to the Iphone business model.

[RecruitMonty]

Apparently there's a 1-2% initial failure rate amongst PC components

To elaborate, an average 1.5% failure rate of components out the box doesn't sound so bad (98.5% Chance of each component working out of the box), but because your average PC needs about 6 to 7 major parts to work (CPU, Graphics Card (if discrete), Motherboard, CPU, RAM Stick 1, RAM stick 2, HDD/SSD, Power Supply), the probability of initial failure adds up quick, reducing your crude odds of everything working out of the box to about 89% or so.

That's...not really good odds to be honest.

Agreed.

[MarkSheppard]

I'll keep that in mind. I guess they are moving over to the Iphone business model.

It's not the iPhone business model -- it's just that the market is demanding ever smaller, ever lighter laptops and that means user serviceability is no longer a prime concern -- it's a lot easier to design something really lightweight and small if you assume it operates as a (mostly) sealed unit for life.

[IronDuke99]

Sorry, but exactly how many early helicopters does Germany have to make this heliborne invasion of Switzerland possible and how are these troops organised? What heavy weapons do they have?

I ask since I don't think even the USA in the mid-late 1960's (certainly then the leading helicopter army in the world) would have dreamed of using them to invade a first world nation, minus massive other more conventional support.

I'm curious?

[MarkSheppard]

Sorry, but exactly how many early helicopters does Germany have to make this heliborne invasion of Switzerland possible and how are these troops organised? What heavy weapons do they have?

I was thinking of using Gebirgsjaegers -- the 1st through 7th Mountain Divisions -- in operations against Switzerland, using a mixture of conventional foot/motorized infantry, and vertical envelopement.

Essentially the Fa 223 Drache in both the conventional and Zwilling form would be used.

The Fa223 could transport 1,000~ kg of cargo up to altitudes of around 2,400~ meters, and heavy experiments were done using the early Fa223 prototypes for mountain war:

In early 1944, a Dornier Do 217 crashed high up on the Vehner moor in Lower Saxony, between Osnabrück and Oldenburg, and it was decided to send the V11 to recover the wreckage. Unfortunately the V11 ended up crashing nearby before it could attempt to lift the Do 217's remains. It was then decided to attempt to recover both using the V14. Flown by Karl Bode and Luftwaffe helicopter pilot Helmut Gerstenhauer, the operation was begun on 11 May 1944. A small team of Focke-Achgelis men and a Luftwaffe recovery company had already dismantled the V11, and the V14 made 10 flights carrying loads beneath it in a cargo net and setting them down where they could be loaded on to road vehicles. All the major parts of the V11 and the Do 217 were retrieved and much useful experience was gained.

Following this, the Air Ministry decided to evaluate the helicopter's potential as a transport in mountainous regions, and the V16 was assigned to the Mountain Warfare School at Mittenwald, near Innsbruck, with the V14 as a backup. The objective of the tests was to see how the Drache would perform as a general-purpose all-weather transport, and numerous landings were made at altitudes of over 1,600 m (5,200 ft) above sea level, plus experimental transportation of artillery guns to mountain troops. When the trials ended in October 1944, a total of 83 flights had been made, with a total flying time of 20 hours.

The highest town in Switzerland -- Juf, is at 2,160 metres.

I've been reading a bit (okay I started months ago, and never finished), on Switzerland's war plans. Essentially, they planned to abandon the majority of the low-lands if Germany invaded, and hold out from high altitude strongholds.

What happens if helicopter envelopment makes that strategy infeasible?

[troopie]

The Swiss need to buy some Samhara SAMs and some Lohanastra gun missile systems.

troopie

[MarkSheppard]

The Swiss need to buy some Samhara SAMs and some Lohanastra gun missile systems.

That actually does raise an interesting question. How did swiss defense plans change with the advent of mass helicopter assaults in the 1960s onwards?

Suddenly, you can't count on mountain altitudes as an insta-win anymore and the armaments of alpine redoubts has to change somewhat.

[MarkSheppard]

For Recruit Monty, perhaps this could be the US tank of the late 1960s, early 1970s in the DR-verse?

[RecruitMonty]

Sitrep:

I'm still searching for a replacement machine. The search was put off due to flu. Now I'm feeling better so hopefully I'll be the happy owner of a new Laptop within the week - or so.

[RecruitMonty]

The Swiss need to buy some Samhara SAMs and some Lohanastra gun missile systems.

That actually does raise an interesting question. How did swiss defense plans change with the advent of mass helicopter assaults in the 1960s onwards?

Suddenly, you can't count on mountain altitudes as an insta-win anymore and the armaments of alpine redoubts has to change somewhat.

My Father did his National Service in the Gebirgsgrenadiere in the 70s. Among other things he learnt how to hold up a Btln. with a few good men and their Sturmgewehrs (etc). If you know your mountains you will always have an advantage over the enemy because you are playing on your home turf. The over all strategy remained the same. Resist as long as possible and if the enemy break through then continue the fight as guerillas.

[MarkSheppard]

So I discovered a 1968 article by Richard M. Ogorkiewicz titled "Thoughts on...FUTURE TANK DESIGNS" in ARMOR magazine (the US Armor community's official journal).

It had a simple equation which with some modification by me, proved to be pretty good (eyeball accuracy wise) for predicting protection for weight of a conventional tank:

T = ( E * W ) * A

Where:

T = Horizontal thickness of frontal hull armor in millimeters.

E = Efficiency of hull design.

Tanks with straight sides will have lower E numbers, while tanks with excellent sloping will have higher E numbers.

Rough E#'s:
Tiger I (2)
US WWII (2.75 to 3)
Tiger II (3)
T-54 Hull (4)
T-54 Turret and IS-7 Hull/Turret (5.5)

W = Weight of tank in metric tons.

A = Aspect Correction Factor (1.0 for front, 0.65 for side)

[RecruitMonty]

1920x1080 is my Screen Resolution. Right now I've got graphics in-game set to 0 and message dely set to 0 as well. Just did a test with "Windows tips" (or whatever the thing is called) switched off and with high graphics Settings in windowed mode with direct x. It seemed to work better all of a sudden. Although I did notice it kind of nod off a for a few seconds here and there, which caused pauses in the action (right clicks or movement etc).

[MarkSheppard]

Pictures no showy. :confused:

I see you tried linking to your dropbox.

PM sent.

[MarkSheppard]

Regarding the formula given above earlier; use the following factors for Panther style tanks:

E: 3.2
A: 1.0 (Frontal) and 0.38 (sides)

It's not an exact formula, but it does help answer questions like:

"What if the Germans used the principles behind the Panther to design a tank to replace the Panzer II in the scouting role?"

in a general rule of thumb-y way.

[MarkSheppard]

The screenshots RM tried to link to earlier are in this ZIP file:

DAS Reich Screens - 12~ MB ZIP (http://alternatewars.com/Games/SP/MBT/WinMBT_DasReich_Screens.zip)

They're 1920x1080 PNG files, that I helpfully reduced in size for him by reducing them to the SPCAMO palette.

[RecruitMonty]

Mini-Update: 1.1.5P - July 2016

The files in this update "WinSPDasReich1.1.5P" are compatible with version 10 of WinSPMBT; some files will need to be over-written, this is intentional.

All of the OOBs (German or otherwise) are now up to date (incl. bug-fixes relating to icons, sound tweaks etc.).

16 new / revised sound files (incl. new autocannon recordings and an M1 Garand with "ping"):

34 new (.lbm) pictures (incl. 22 colour pictures, most of which were generously provided by MarkSheppard for the mod, Thanks Mark!).

Two of the mod's icon files (124 and 139.shp) have been updated (SdKfz. 234/2 "Puma", Panzerspähwagen II "Luchs" Ausf. B and the PzSpW. Leopard).

Get it at the link below:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ecglz2yelkuu1nz/AACOqFVI8wRFG5Wuvy9wX2Mpa?dl=0

[RecruitMonty]

UPDATE:

Addendum (31.07.2016):
*********************

Added eight more (.lbm) colour pictures (total of 30, as of 31.07.2016)



The files are located in the original download (1.1.5P) under the pictures directory. Extract the new colour pictures from the pictures folder into the mod's picture folder (over-write).

[RecruitMonty]

Hello everyone,

So the mod has been around long enough, time for some questions.

Does anyone actually bother with the sound mod?

How do you find it?

How about the M14s? Do you guys like the way they sound?

[scorpio_rocks]

I use it in it's entirety when playing with Das Reich.

I use a customised sound set for my "standard" SPMBT which is based on Cross' original mod with additions from yours, Oche's, the default and my own stuff.

Sorry I don't use your #135 and #136

[RecruitMonty]

UPDATE FEBRUARY 2017:

Greetings Friends!

At long last version 1.1.6P of the mod is here.

LINK!(https://www.dropbox.com/sh/x0fk7og8nchlz6l/AABfl2X6dAhntc2HlkHgnK_La?dl=0)LINK!

I had planned to release it before Christmas 2016 but between one thing and another it got held up until now.

I would like to remind everyone that this is merely an update to the mod - if you want the full version I suggest you download 1.1P and then apply the changes in 1.1.5P and 1.1.6P in that order over-writing whatever you are prompted to overwrite as you go along. The usual warnings apply. Don't modify your regular version of SPMBT. Use a copy.

Below is a copy of this release's readme with details of what has been done.

... The files in this update "WinSPDasReich1.1.6P" are compatible with version 10 of WinSPMBT; some files will need to be over-written, this is intentional. Some cosmetic changes have been made to the "soundmod" OOBs (addition of some new icons and .lbms to the US OOB as well as new anti-tank gun icons for the rest).

All of the OOBs (German or otherwise) are now up to date (incl. bug-fixes relating to icons, sound tweaks etc.).

Fourteen new / revised sound files (see "Das Reich Sound Guide"): 8, 11, 14, 15 - new aircraft rocket sounds; 6 - new aircraft autocannon; 33, 34, 85, 93, 95, 96, 249 - new vehicle sounds; 10, 131 & 241 - new infantry weapon sounds and a new "click" sound (radio static).

Sixty-six new (.lbm) pictures: thirty-one new USA and USMC infantry unit pictures (implemented at present only in the US Army OOB, "soundmod"), thirty-four new or revised pictures for the German OOBs (35 & 44) and one "27602", for the standard Egyptian OOB (Vickers Mk.VIc).

Thirty-seven new text files added (OOB 35). Sixty-seven revised text files.

Seven new or revised graphics' files (including the new anti-tank gun icons* - implemented in the German and "soundmod" OOBs, the new M59 APC and M113 "Zippo" icons and a new - camo - version of the Dornier VSTOL troop transporter).

Ten scenarios have been included with this release (400 to 413)

* thanks to Mario_Fr for his sterling work on these ATGs! ...


The scenarios cover a range of topics:

400 pits a Coy. of OOB 44's Paras against some FLN insurgents from OOB 22 in the Algerian hinterland.

402-404 pits the forces of OOB 35 (2R) against the Soviet Union in an infamous setting.

405 and 406 pits OOB 35 (2R) against the US Army in rural France.

409 pits a group of French troops - armed to the teeth with a combination of French and German weaponry - against Viet Minh Guerillas.

411-413 pit various German formations against the Viet Minh in the northern jungles of (still, just about) French-Indochina (ca. 1953-54).

I hope you all enjoy them (maybe someone might even post up an AAR :happy:).

As always constructive criticism is welcomed and any tips on how to improve scenarios or get around problems that crop up with them are very much appreciated. Anyone is welcome to try their hand at devising their own and to post up screenshots etc..

Regards,

Monty

[Warhero]

Thanks about patch:) Nice to see some scenarios there too...

[SaS TrooP]

You need to have an dropbox account.

Alternative link?

[scorpio_rocks]

dropbox accounts are free (and easy to setup)...

This means folks don't need to host a website, or pay for storage of huge zip files, etc.

[Warhero]

Excuse me but what are those obat42/44? Do I have to copy them into default oobs or not?

[RecruitMonty]

OOB 42 contains German "gunboats", Flak 88, Flak 110 and 128 emplacements and cavalry units.

OOB 44 is the second German OOB.

So yes, you should use these. They have been intrinsic to the basic German mod since day one.

The Russian and US Army OOBs are also needed to play a number of the scenarios.

But remember don't use your default copy of the game. Copy your entire WinMBT folder and modify the copy.

[Warhero]

Okay thanks about response RecruitMonty:) I will add them into game too...

[WilliamB]

I tried to download your mod. Got the message "404 The owner hasn't granted you access to this link".

[MarkSheppard]

I get that "The owner hasn’t granted you access to this link" too :confused:

[MarkSheppard]

The owner hasn’t granted you access to this link. again.

Have you checked the "security" features? Maybe Dropbox changed their "Default" settings for greater user security?

[MarkSheppard]

That works. Let me download them and zip them up for you on my site. Give me one...

[MarkSheppard]

This link should work

http://alternatewars.com/Games/SP/MBT/WinMBT_DasReich1-1-6P.zip

106.2~ MB ZIP.

[RecruitMonty]

That works. Let me download them and zip them up for you on my site. Give me one...

Halleluja!

Alright, now it is official:

UPDATE FEBRUARY 2017:

At long last version 1.1.6P of the mod is here.

LINK:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/81im2ix1t82z6j9/AADZtNxABV6S84L2y-_HZDkBa?dl=0

MIRROR:
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showpost.php?p=837252&postcount=417*

I would like to remind everyone that this is merely an update to the mod - if you want the full version I suggest you download 1.1P, then download the .lbm pictures in 1.1.5P and then the latest update 1.1.6P (in that order) over-writing whatever you are prompted to overwrite as you go along.

The usual warnings apply. Don't modify your regular version of SPMBT. Use a copy.

Below is a copy of this release's readme with details of what has been done.

Quote:
... The files in this update "WinSPDasReich1.1.6P" are compatible with version 10 of WinSPMBT; some files will need to be over-written, this is intentional. Some cosmetic changes have been made to the "soundmod" OOBs (addition of some new icons and .lbms to the US OOB as well as new anti-tank gun icons for the rest).

All of the OOBs (German or otherwise) are now up to date (incl. bug-fixes relating to icons, sound tweaks etc.).

Fourteen new / revised sound files (see "Das Reich Sound Guide"): 8, 11, 14, 15 - new aircraft rocket sounds; 6 - new aircraft autocannon; 33, 34, 85, 93, 95, 96, 249 - new vehicle sounds; 10, 131 & 241 - new infantry weapon sounds and a new "click" sound (radio static).

Sixty-six new (.lbm) pictures: thirty-one new USA and USMC infantry unit pictures (implemented at present only in the US Army OOB, "soundmod"), thirty-four new or revised pictures for the German OOBs (35 & 44) and one "27602", for the standard Egyptian OOB (Vickers Mk.VIc).

Thirty-seven new text files added (OOB 35). Sixty-seven revised text files.

Seven new or revised graphics' files (including the new anti-tank gun icons* - implemented in the German and "soundmod" OOBs, the new M59 APC and M113 "Zippo" icons and a new - camo - version of the Dornier VSTOL troop transporter).

Ten scenarios have been included with this release (400 to 413)

* thanks to Mario_Fr for his sterling work on these ATGs! ...
The scenarios cover a range of topics:

400 pits a Coy. of OOB 44's Paras against some FLN insurgents from OOB 22 in the Algerian hinterland.

402-404 pits the forces of OOB 35 (2R) against the Soviet Union in an infamous setting.

405 and 406 pits OOB 35 (2R) against the US Army in rural France.

409 pits a group of French troops - armed to the teeth with a combination of French and German weaponry - against Viet Minh Guerillas.

411-413 pit various German formations against the Viet Minh in the northern jungles of (still, just about) French-Indochina (ca. 1953-54).

I hope you all enjoy them (maybe someone might even post up an AAR ).

As always constructive criticism is welcomed and any tips on how to improve scenarios or get around problems that crop up with them are very much appreciated. Anyone is welcome to try their hand at devising their own and to post up screenshots etc..

Regards,

Monty

* Thanks to MarkSheppard for hosting the mod on his excellent website!

[WilliamB]

I got it. Love you mod.
Thank you.

[RecruitMonty]

:) Thanks.

Glad to hear it. I hope you enjoy playing it as much as I enjoyed making it.

[scorpio_rocks]

Let me know if you need/want any help making any changes for compatibility with the new patch of main game.

[RecruitMonty]

Let me know if you need/want any help making any changes for compatibility with the new patch of main game.

Hi Scorpio,

I've taken a look at the changes - specifically the new icons in 183, 185 and 186 - and have come to the conclusion that, at present, an upgrade of the mod to compatibility with version 11 is not on the cards.

I have a principal policy of not tampering with the regular game's icons as most of the time they crop up in many OOBs and are always useful parts of any update.

Therefore any "update" I might make to my mod that does not contain these - frankly - crucial elements wouldn't really be an update at all. It would be tantamount to a botched nose job.

60 icons - 36 "turret-less" and 24 "invisible turrets" - are affected.

A closer inspection of similar shape files (53, 58, 59, 91 and 92) has yielded a maximum of 24 possible "redundancies" (at a push).

Of those 24, only 17 are of the "turret-less" ("-1") variety. That type of vehicle is however intrinsic to the mod.

At some point, I imagine, when the developers need the space again, new files of this variety will be coded in (a complicated process).

Until then it is likely that the remaining empty spots in shape files of this type will be filled as and when new icons are required.

Therefore we have no other choice, at present, but to wait and see what happens.

In the meantime I will continue to work on newer releases compatible with version 10b. I suggest those using the mod keep a copy of the game at that level for use with the mod.

It is a shame as the newest version of MBT is a real corker. Especially the new terrain and the graphical enhancements.

C'est la Guerre! :)

[scorpio_rocks]

Thanks Monty.

I was worried that the excellent icon work done by the team would start to impinge on mods, especially large ones like your own.

I did suggest / ask that the developers "set aside" at least one .shp file of each type (turreted, non turreted, invisible turrets) HERE (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=51355), but there didn't seem to be much support from the modding community. (Perhaps I did not explain the concept well enough).

It is a shame that we cannot enjoy this, other published mods and our own custom stuff with the new maps etc and take advantage of the hard work put in by both the developers and the modding community of this fine game.

[Mappo]

Hi RecruitMonty, I would like to thanks you for your Das Reich mod, very interesting and playable. I hope that many people have enjoed your mod like me.
Now I have a question: you have ever think to make a WinSPWW2 version of Das Reich? In my opinion it would be awesome. Perhaps utilising a minor country's Oob, dating it from august 1943 (after Kursk) to december 1946.

[RecruitMonty]

Hi RecruitMonty, I would like to thanks you for your Das Reich mod, very interesting and playable. I hope that many people have enjoed your mod like me.
Now I have a question: you have ever think to make a WinSPWW2 version of Das Reich? In my opinion it would be awesome. Perhaps utilising a minor country's Oob, dating it from august 1943 (after Kursk) to december 1946.

Thank you, Mappo, for your very kind words :). I must confess, I never did give that much thought. Mostly because WinSPWW2 has a pretty decent German OOB that is full to bursting.

Having said that, I was thinking about making some changes to sounds for WinSPWW2 the other day with a view to playing a few scenarios and I could have a look at my OOBs and see what would fit into the 1944-46 time period.

Can't promise anything immediate though, I am afraid. I am quite busy at the moment. I will give it some thought though. In the meantime, I hope you continue to enjoy the mod.

[RecruitMonty]

Hello everyone,

Just a little note to say that development of the mod has not ended due to the aforementioned compatibility issues with the current version.

I have in fact been busy making some small additions here and there; the most significant of which is the addition of US heavy armour (albeit in OOB 42), thanks to Oragus' creative exertions.

When I'm done travelling I will knock together an update for you all that will incorporate these and other changes.

Regards,

Monty

[RecruitMonty]

I thought I'd upload a few screenshots today.

First up, a view of the new Jagdpanzer (E-25) "Jaguar" Ausf. B:

<a href="https://ibb.co/b2O9ya"><img src="https://preview.ibb.co/gKkdrv/Alte_Festung.png" alt="Alte_Festung" border="0"></a>

Next, the new Sturmhaubitze 38 D:

<a href="https://ibb.co/jojSjF"><img src="https://preview.ibb.co/bLDbda/24th_Panzer.png" alt="24th_Panzer" border="0"></a>

and finally, a company of Marinetruppen going into action in the Black River region of Indochina ca. 1953 supported by amphibious tractors:

<a href="https://ibb.co/hHJWBv"><img src="https://preview.ibb.co/hAaYPF/Marines_going_into_action.png" alt="Marines_going_into_action" border="0"></a>

The update shouldn't be too far off now.

[MarkSheppard]

How's it going?

I recently came into a huge trove of Lockheed drawings over the decades if you want to try your hand at realistic, yet different aircraft for the various powers.

[RecruitMonty]

Hello Everyone!

I'm still beavering away at the new release.

@ MarkSheppard - sure thing, I'll take a look at them.

Here are some screenshots of some old and new units:
<a href="https://ibb.co/fJjJWS"><img src="https://preview.ibb.co/hqLsrS/Panthers1.png" alt="Panthers1" border="0"></a>
<a href="https://ibb.co/bN5QBS"><img src="https://preview.ibb.co/jqcGJ7/Panthers2.png" alt="Panthers2" border="0"></a>
<a href="https://ibb.co/ddUkBS"><img src="https://preview.ibb.co/eB4JWS/Panthers3.png" alt="Panthers3" border="0"></a>
<a href="https://ibb.co/hTuVd7"><img src="https://preview.ibb.co/napJWS/February_2018_Desert.png" alt="February_2018_Desert" border="0"></a>
<a href="https://ibb.co/iarAd7"><img src="https://preview.ibb.co/h4zJWS/February_2018_Summer.png" alt="February_2018_Summer" border="0"></a>
<a href="https://ibb.co/k5KwJ7"><img src="https://preview.ibb.co/mbBnQn/February_2018_Winter.png" alt="February_2018_Winter" border="0"></a>
<a href="https://ibb.co/g0xiy7"><img src="https://preview.ibb.co/eSMAd7/Heavies_1.png" alt="Heavies_1" border="0"></a>
<a href="https://ibb.co/gS2iy7"><img src="https://preview.ibb.co/fuRAd7/Heavies_2.png" alt="Heavies_2" border="0"></a>
<a href="https://ibb.co/kKHu5n"><img src="https://preview.ibb.co/dj25BS/Heavies_3.png" alt="Heavies_3" border="0"></a>
<a href="https://ibb.co/cjryWS"><img src="https://preview.ibb.co/h0CSQn/January_2018_Desert.png" alt="January_2018_Desert" border="0"></a>
<a href="https://ibb.co/fU9Vd7"><img src="https://preview.ibb.co/hebAd7/January_2018_Summer_2.png" alt="January_2018_Summer_2" border="0"></a>
<a href="https://ibb.co/jO6XrS"><img src="https://preview.ibb.co/mwh5BS/January_2018_Winter.png" alt="January_2018_Winter" border="0"></a>

[RecruitMonty]

Here are some screenshots of some old and new units:

As you can see, I've been quite busy incorporating Oragus' sterling work on US heavies into the mod, while taking a stab at two Soviet monsters, myself (the IS-7 and Obyekt 279). The Panthers also got a make-over: now OOB 44 is home to the lighter variant, whereas OOB 35 is where you will find the up-armoured variants.

Finally I made a whole host of lighter German vehicles (including winter and desert versions of the LARS, which I'd previously left unfinished). I cannot for the life of me remember who made the IS-3M, T10 (B and M) icons. Whoever you are, they are quite lovely. I took the liberty of creating winter camo for them. I hope you don't mind? Let me know who you are so I can give credit where it is due in the next release.

[Weasel]

This looks interesting, I am DLing it now. Is 1.1.16 still latest?

[MarkSheppard]

Lockheed L-130: Lockheed 1941 study for long range bombardment aircraft. GTOW of 250,000 lbs, top speed 380 MPH, 8000~ mile range.

Lockheed L-131: 1941 study for a two seat pursuit aircraft; top speed 416 MPH at 25,000 feet.

Lockheed L-134-3: Redesign of the Lockheed XP-58 Chain lightning. Led to a quite considerably different aircraft.

[RecruitMonty]

This looks interesting, I am DLing it now. Is 1.1.16 still latest?

Hi,

I'm glad you like the screens. 1.1.6P is indeed still the latest version of the mod. Sorry it took me so long to respond. I had trouble logging in to my account.

Here is some more eye-candy:

<a href="https://ibb.co/cCkZVn"><img src="https://preview.ibb.co/jWZTqn/Artillerieleichter.png" alt="Artillerieleichter" border="0"></a>
<a href="https://ibb.co/e7jiO7"><img src="https://preview.ibb.co/geKHi7/Landungsboote.png" alt="Landungsboote" border="0"></a>

Lockheed L-130: Lockheed 1941 study for long range bombardment aircraft. GTOW of 250,000 lbs, top speed 380 MPH, 8000~ mile range.

Lockheed L-131: 1941 study for a two seat pursuit aircraft; top speed 416 MPH at 25,000 feet.

Lockheed L-134-3: Redesign of the Lockheed XP-58 Chain lightning. Led to a quite considerably different aircraft.
11-02-18 21:23

Interesting designs. Could you provide me with some more reference material and maybe a bit of background about each prototype - like what their intended mission was etc.?

[scorpio_rocks]

New landungsboote look great ;)

[RecruitMonty]

New landungsboote look great ;)

Thanks! Could never have done it without a good solid foundation provided by yourself, of course :up:. I'll tell you it was hard finding good source material for the Bundeswehr's landing craft. In the end modelling sites came up trumps. You would have thought with all the manoeuvres during the Cold War that someone would have had the presence of mind to take a few snaps of the damn things, but what little there was, was never from the right angle.

I'm going to be play testing them to see if they work properly. I'm especially interested to see how the barges equipped with rocket launchers work out.

I've changed the main armament on the "MAL-Typ-II" and the "EL-Typ-AL-170" to a 150mm gun that was actually used by the Kriegsmarine: the 15cm Schiffskanone C/28. I think 150mm is also a more reasonable armament for a gunboat. I can't wait to use these babies either.

[MarkSheppard]

I recently handrolled a ballistics program from a 1983 Applesoft BASIC program I found in a 1983 Warships International issue; and converted it from BASIC to Python 3, and ran some quick tests after inputting the 5.56mm and 4.7mm DM11 data into the program:

In most Field Manuals, the M-16 is rated as being "Effective" against an area target at 800m.

The M-16 round has the following characteristics at 800m when fired from a height of 1.4m (average shoulder height) at a 1.2m target (average chest height):

Terminal Energy: 193.47 joules of KE. This is 2.28 times the minimum
energy (around 85 Joules) estimated as being necessary to seriously
incapacitate a human on the battlefield.

Terminal Penetration (Ballistic Gel): 16.72mm. This is 0.05x FBI req.

NOTE: The FBI standard for small arms is 304.8mm (12in) gel penetration. This represents the average human target, taking into account bones, organs, etc. This also represents law enforcement requirement to effectively incapacitate a target within moments of wounding. It's how they came up with 10mm Auto in the early 1990s -- to fulfill that requirement in a pistol.

The (in)famous 4.7x33mm Caseless (DM11) round has the following rating at 800m:

Terminal Energy: 255.73 joules of KE. This is 3.01 times the minimum
energy (around 85 Joules) estimated as being necessary to seriously
incapacitate a human on the battlefield.

Terminal Penetration (Ballistic Gel): 15.99mm. This is 0.05x FBI req.

The biggest difference is that at around 1600m; the rates change to:

5.56mm: 63.88J, 5.52mm gel penetration
4.7mm DM11: 73.38J, 4.59mm gel penetration

This matches with other statments I have found online:

Ballistics for the 4.7mm caseless was rather close to the 5.56mm round. However, terminal ballistics was very different as the 4.7mm did not tumble or fragment upon impact (hence the 4.7mm round was considered inferior to the 5.56mm in this regard). The G11 program was based on the idea of increased probability of hitting the intended target by using the salvo principle; to wit, multiple rounds hitting the target through high rpm burst and delayed recoil.

Biggest thing I noticed was that for the same distances; the 4.7mm DM11 required slightly less barrel elevation in degrees than the 5.56; so it was inherently more accurate.

The other big difference was that the G11 had a built in optical sight from the start, while the M-16/M-4 family didn't get a flat-rail ACOG until the 2000s.

So I would rate the G11 as having the same specications as US weapon 009 M16A4 ACOG:

ACC: 6
HEK: 3
Range: 9

The biggest difference would be in the Rifle Squad. While the typical US Rifle squad has 80 HE units of ammo for M16, this would be increased in a G11 squad to around 160-170 HE units of ammo, because 510 rounds of 4.7mm weighs the same as 240 rounds of 5.56mm.

In case you are also wondering:

9x19mm M882 Ball @ 0 elevation is 389.2 J to 82.267M, and 88.11mm penetration of ballistic gel.

5.7x28mm SS190 Ball @ 0 elevation is 238 J to 143.2M, and 21.6mm penetration of ballistic gel.

Basically, Five Seven pistols extend pistol range from 1 hex to 2 hexes, and within the context of pistol power (1 HEK basically), it's all a wash; because the difference between being shot with a 389J or 238J round is not fun.

[Mappo]

Hi RecruitMonty, any news about the release of the new version of the mod?
Thanks in advance

[RecruitMonty]

Hi,

There has been a slight set-back. I don't believe any of the old downloads can be accessed through my drop box at present. That has a little something to do with a snafu my end.

Damn Microsoft Edge had been causing me grief no end. Microsoft can go to hell with their "improverments". Progressive fruitcakes.

So in a bid to speed things up again - thinking it had something to do with disk space on the C Drive. I've "only" got 78 gigs worth at present. I moved my Dropbox ... tldr its all up the wazoo.

If you want a copy of the mod you'll have to use the mirrors that Mark has kindly provided for the time being. Post 411 in this thread is the latest of them, I believe.

Here it is again for anyone who does not want to go on a Schnitzel Jagd:

http://alternatewars.com/Games/SP/MBT/



WinMBT_DasReich1-0P.zip
WinMBT_DasReich1-1-6P.zip
WinMBT_DasReich1-1P.zip

All the important stuff is in there, I think

Never mind.

Everything my end is still there as it is just a dropbox snafu.

Which I may be able to fix after all. So watch this space. I'm doing a re-sync. right this minute and the old files magically started to re-appear.

So the next end-version you guys get from me will be another all-in-one file with everything that ever was Das Reich and more in it. Will take a while to put together though as I'm still figuring a few things out with the latest version of MBT and have been otherwise very busy.

I have something in the works for sure though. All the teasers you've seen will be in it and now, new Marder 1 APC variant icons are included as well. Old ones were always a little too short for a vehicle that in my OOB is supposed to sit ten Grenies.

It has been a busy year, I'm afraid.

[Akmatov]

"All the important stuff is in there, I think"

Before I launch into installation, which so often become 'interesting', will those three files result in an installation of Das Reich in winSPMBT?

[Aquila]

How do I install this mod?

[scorpio_rocks]

Can soebody help me, how do I install this mod?


Unzip the files and copy them into the relevant directories of a clean second copy of SP

[Aquila]

Unzip the files and copy them into the relevant directories of a clean second copy of SP
I did it but it didn´t work out well, I will have another try. Do you know what the difference is between these three 1-0P, 1-1P, and 1-6P versions?

[scorpio_rocks]

my understanding is that v1.1.6 (1-1-6P) is the latest version (approx 20 months old) and is compatible with WinSPMBT v10.


All info and installation instructions are contained in the readme files - unzip and copy the contents of each folder into the same named folder in your COPY of the 2016 version (V10) of WinSPMBT

[Aquila]

my understanding is that v1.1.6 (1-1-6P) is the latest version (approx 20 months old) and is compatible with WinSPMBT v10.


All info and installation instructions are contained in the readme files - unzip and copy the contents of each folder into the same named folder in your COPY of the 2016 version (V10) of WinSPMBT
I just bought the game and the download came as V11. Is there a way to get V10?

And from what I´ve figured this mod needs all three packages to be installed because otherwise some steps in the readme don´t make sense.

[Mappo]

I have seen that RecruitMonty has been missing from this site for over a year, so I have little hope, but it would be very nice if RecruitMonty or some of his friends could give us the last patch he was working on. Anyone have any news about it? Many thanks in advance

[scorpio_rocks]

Last I heard RecruitMonty was moving / changing job and had had computer issues. Other than him all anyone has is the last release version v1.1.6 (1-1-6P). The link to Mark's mirror still works I believe (see post #432).

We must await RecruitMonty's return as only he was working on the next release.

[RecruitMonty]

Good evening Fellow WinSPMBT Fans,

After a long hiatus, I am pleased to say that I am back.

I've moved countries, gotten married, bought a house, adopted a dog and done quite a few other things besides.

Somewhere along the way, I lost my login details. Recently, I found an old email address for Shrapnel Forums and was fortunate enough to be logged back in.

I have good news for you. There is a new version of the mod - compatible with Version 16 of Win SPMBT available.

When I have all the files together in a neat package and they are loaded up to Drop Box (link generated etc). I will post it up here along with some screenshots of what to expect in the latest version.

The installation process, I am afraid, will still be old school - read the readme and follow the drag and drop instructions. Take the good advice of the devs and create a copy of the vanilla game for the mod.

It will only work with Version 16. I am sure that there is a newer version of Win SPMBT out, but I've not had the time to update everything again and to be honest we are already maxed out as far as space is concerned for mod content.

I have a rudimentary Japanese OOB, which I am working on and I may create and Italian one at some point in the future.

The write up of all the changes and additions will take a while for me to put together but I should have something ready for you all in a month or so tops.

In the meantime, I am sorry that I've been away for so long.

Watch this space for new developments.

Best Regards,

RecruitMonty

[scorpio_rocks]

Congrats on the Lady, house and Doggo! - Good to have you back

[RecruitMonty]

It's good to be back.

As promised, I'm going to load up some screenshots.

First up, a look at the E-50, known in Das Reich as the Panther II

https://i.postimg.cc/FfKf6MXN/E-50-2024-07-06.png (https://postimg.cc/FfKf6MXN)

Here you see the whole series from Ausführung A through to E (in the light configuration, found in OOB 44). Note the changes to the later model turrets and the inclusion of obsolescent models, which have undergone a Kampfwertsteigerung (old chassis, old turret, but new gun, optics etc).

Next we have the Löwe Ausf. B1 and B2

https://i.postimg.cc/1ggCBvBX/L-we.png (https://postimg.cc/1ggCBvBX)

The Löwe is included in Das Reich as a lighter and cheaper alternative to the E-75. Less common, but still built in sufficient enough numbers to warrant upgrades into the late 60s. A variant will feature in one scenario, which will be made available with the mod.

Here we have the first three models of E-100 with the Henschel and Adler turrets

https://i.postimg.cc/nCx9FMQh/Kaiser-1-2024-07-06.png (https://postimg.cc/nCx9FMQh)

Known in Das Reich as Kaisertiger, they play the part of the mainstay of the Super Heavy tank class.

Here are the rest of them into the 21st century

https://i.postimg.cc/YhkcdBTP/Kaiser-2-2024-07-06.png (https://postimg.cc/YhkcdBTP)

https://i.postimg.cc/Yj8cDskq/Kaiser-3-2024-07-06.png (https://postimg.cc/Yj8cDskq)

Moving onto the sea, for a moment, here are some landing craft

https://i.postimg.cc/8svJhLVH/Landungsboote.png (https://postimg.cc/8svJhLVH)

Some gunboats and fire support for amphibious operations

https://i.postimg.cc/QVZcCjBV/Artillerieleichter.png (https://postimg.cc/QVZcCjBV)

Staying on the water, here is a screencap of the starting line for a force of marine infantry in an alternative Indochina scenario

https://i.postimg.cc/NLdZYCMJ/Marines-go-into-action-against-Viet-Minh-in-Indochina.png (https://postimg.cc/NLdZYCMJ)

These Marines are supported by Amphibienpanzer and Amphibienschützenpanzer.

Here is an example of an Amphibienpanzer IV's stats

https://i.postimg.cc/Mc8Qs8Cv/Amphibienpanzer-IV.png (https://postimg.cc/Mc8Qs8Cv)

The marine landing forces of the Reich in the mod are modelled on those of the French and American armies IRL.

Finally, for today, some Jagdpanzers

https://i.postimg.cc/pyd5pyWW/Jagdpanzer-1.png (https://postimg.cc/pyd5pyWW)

A glimpse of the Leopard StuG

https://i.postimg.cc/dhFqZS22/Jagdpanzer-2024-07-06.png (https://postimg.cc/dhFqZS22)

... and some E-100s

https://i.postimg.cc/BtvN4qRD/E-100-5-Screenshot-2024-07-06.png (https://postimg.cc/BtvN4qRD)

In the next few days, I will be posting more screencaps to show you all what has changed and what to expect from the new version of the mod.

When I have all my ducks in a row with the mod files, I will host a copy on DropBox and post the link in here.

In the meantime, enjoy the picture show.

[RecruitMonty]

Here are a few more screencaps.

From the in-game encyclopaedia (a great addition to the game, btw), a close up of the StuH Leopard

https://i.postimg.cc/0Kznj2NV/Encyclopedia-13-2024-07-06.png (https://postimg.cc/0Kznj2NV)

and one of my personal favourite units to have worked on, the StuG Leopard 1

https://i.postimg.cc/N9HLj3c1/Encyclopedia-5-2024-07-06.png (https://postimg.cc/N9HLj3c1)

Some colour for the Marines

https://i.postimg.cc/JG2tVNSw/Encyclopedia-11-2024-07-06.png (https://postimg.cc/JG2tVNSw)

[scorpio_rocks]

Looking Great!

[RecruitMonty]

Good evening, Gents.

As promised, some more screencaps.

Tonight, I want to showcase a scenario, which features a lot of armour, which will be published with the mod. As you can see there are a good mix of new German units as well as a surprise in the Soviet line up.

The scenario depicts an armoured clash between the Soviets and the Germans on the Caucasian Steppe, in the winter of 1962/63. Part of a series of Stalingrad 1962 - 1963 scenarios.

Why Stalingrad and why in the 1960s? Good questions.

I found that re-imagining existing scenarios from SPWW2 and porting them into SPMBT was the quickest way for me to deliver good and reliably playable scenarios to you guys without having to reinvent the wheel and possibly miss the mark entirely with a scenario that was broken.

The scenario here, is an exception of sorts, as it uses a pre-existing SPWW2 map, but is an example of my own scenario creation. Albeit inspired again, to some extent, from the very challenging Prokhorovka scenario.

https://i.postimg.cc/8JQ2skSS/Panzerkeil-1-2024-07-06.png (https://postimg.cc/8JQ2skSS) https://i.postimg.cc/Z0ZkSqHP/Panzerkeil-2-2024-07-06.png (https://postimg.cc/Z0ZkSqHP) https://i.postimg.cc/vcHp4Spc/Soviet-Armour-2-2024-07-06.png (https://postimg.cc/vcHp4Spc) https://i.postimg.cc/3WZsJHfs/Soviet-Armour-3-2024-07-06.png (https://postimg.cc/3WZsJHfs)

https://i.postimg.cc/QKjvk6CY/Soviet-Armour-2024-07-06.png (https://postimg.cc/QKjvk6CY)

Finally, for tonight, here is another scenario, which you might recognise - Totenkopf Attacks. Summer of 1963.

https://i.postimg.cc/xk7DKyVL/Totenkopf-Attacks-1963-2024-07-06.png (https://postimg.cc/xk7DKyVL)

Expect more screencaps soon.

Best Regards,

Recruit Monty

[lukerduker123]

Ugh, guess this means I need to get off my butt and finish the Foxhole mod. For real though, congratulations on all the changes in your life! And thank you for coming back after all these years. I can't wait to see this bad boy finally finished.

[RecruitMonty]

Good Evening Gentlemen,

Or should I say ... Guten Abend, meine sehr verehrten Herren ;)

https://images.gutefrage.net/media/fragen/bilder/was-ist-das-fuer-eine-fontschriftart-die-deutsche-wochenschau/0_full.webp?v=1517850022000

https://youtu.be/TVmTW0brkgc?feature=shared

Das Oberkommando der Wehrmacht gibt bekannt

Version 1.1.7P of WinSPMBT 𝔇𝔞𝔰 ℜ𝔢𝔦𝔠𝔥 is finally available for Download

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/c9wn9o06td0uez97m9wi5/AOl0-hMt2nSKBRODT_gEDes?rlkey=5qvxhabme28l7tn623hxex9e2&st=jwju6boq&dl=0

I Strongly advise you to create a copy of a vanilla version of WinSPMBT (Version 16) in order to install the mod correctly. It will not play on other versions.

Please read the Readme. It will tell you how to install the mod and answer many of your burning questions.

Please also report any bugs you may find in this thread.

Please let me know if the download link isn't working. It has been a while since I shared anything using Drop Box.

Happy War Gaming!

Recruit Monty

--- Update ----

It has been brought to my attention that the Game Data folder won't download in one go on Drop Box - too big, apparently.

I've found a way to get around this problem... just open the Game Data folder while in Drop Box (you get there by clicking on the link, anyway) and download the individual folders, one by one. It is laborious, but it works.

It's not perfect, but you get the files in the end.

[WilliamB]

I tried to download the game data and got the message "the folder is too large to download".

[troopie]

I tried to download the game data and got the message "the folder is too large to download".

So did I.

[RecruitMonty]

Too big huh? Well there is a Michael Scott moment if ever there was one.

Jokes aside, is this a problem anyone else has encountered?

I can have a look and see what the trouble might be. I am guessing it might be the .lbm files in Pictures? I hope it isn't the icon files in Graphics ... that would be much harder to fix.

Is there a size limit on Drop Box?

--- Update ----

Ok... I've found a way to get around this problem... just open the Game Data folder in Drop Box and download the individual folders, one by one. It is laborious, but it works.

I'll post this under the download too.

It's not perfect, but you get the files in the end.

Please feel free to post up screenshots, once your all set. I am sure the community would love to see them so as to get a feel for the mod.

[WilliamB]

This worked, thank you!

[RecruitMonty]

This worked, thank you!

Glad I could be of service. I'm sorry it wasn't working properly to begin with.

[RecruitMonty]

Good evening, Gents,

Well ... I guess I'd better get the ball rolling on what you could expect in the future.

At the moment, there is some limited scope for further refinement of the Japanese OOB - mostly tying up loose ends - and the prospect of some tentative work on an Italian OOB - recycling existing icons.

I am not sure whether I want to issue a patch to the current 1.1.7P download for the work to be done on the Japanese OOB or whether I want to be more ambitious and add some more new icons - so new units.

If I did the latter, with the current total number of Shape files available, this would lead to far more clashes than advisable for anyone who just wants to play a mod of a perfectly good game.

Should, however, Andy and Don have plans to add even more additional aircraft, turretless and regular AFV icon space, then I can add more mod content without breaking newer versions of the game.

To avoid breaks, should this not be in the cards, we'd remain in Version 16, albeit, with increasing capacity constraints there too.

Right now I am looking at the Japanese OOB - helicopters - and the German OOBS - helicopters again.

Chaps, please do put some screenshots up of you playing the mod. It makes the whole development process just that little bit sweeter to know someone is enjoying the end product. Do please also list bugs, should you encounter them.

Best Regards.

Recruit Monty

[Warhero]

Well I got everything else but Game Data d/l'ed... Any solution?

[Warhero]

How about using some other file sharing service (Mega, Badongo for example)?

[Warhero]

Sorry now I found how d/l Game Data:). Everything is OK now:).

[RecruitMonty]

Good evening, All.

I found this video on Youtube today.

https://youtu.be/qgY6hEuciTg?feature=shared

It is four years old.

Apparently someone downloaded an older version of the mod and made a video about it.

I have to say, I am chuffed :D.

Hopefully the content creator in question would like to have a go on the updated version, perhaps someone here could let them know that there is a new version.

Maybe they make another video. Especially since the install has been improved and that was a complaint in the last video.

Ideally we'd have an install wizard for the mod, but I wouldn't know how to make one and it is not the most straightforward mod to install.

Any way, I thought I would post it up for you all to see.

Have a great evening, everyone.

Recruit Monty

[RecruitMonty]

Good evening, Gentlemen,

I have a request for you, this evening. Are there any talented icon artists out there who fancy a stab at the attached?

https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Development-of-Mitsubishi-MH-2000-Helicopter-Kobayashi/3061be209d7a551e81007ff09626fb11c3ead869/figure/2
It is the Mitsubishi MH 2000. As part of my ongoing work on the Japanese OOB, I am trying to make a credible helicopter fleet.

In reality this machine was only used on the civilian market, but it does have a military application as a troop transport.

An icon in Japanese livery - preferably green, would do wonders. I've tried my hand at it but I am not pleased with my work.

Best Regards,

Recruit Monty

[DRG]

779, 780 or 782 in MBT is "close enough" and it uses a four blade rotor

https://i.imgur.com/tUwW0lR.png

Put a meatball (Hinomaru) on either side of the fuselage and you are good to go

[RecruitMonty]

779, 780 or 782 in MBT is "close enough" and it uses a four blade rotor

https://i.imgur.com/tUwW0lR.png

Put a meatball (Hinomaru) on either side of the fuselage and you are good to go

Good idea, I shall do so. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction.

[DRG]

The 2000 nose glass is right to the front and that's a simple edit if you want to go that far

[Mappo]

Hi RecruitMonty, First of all I want to give you my most sincere compliments for your mod. It's simply fantastic. I hope that one day you will be able to create the Italian oob too. For now I wanted to tell you that in the scenarios you attached some things are missing: the texts of scenarios 574 and 575 and the file 575.dat which makes this last scenario unplayable. Many thanks again for your considerable effort. Max from Florence, Italy

[RecruitMonty]

Hi RecruitMonty, First of all I want to give you my most sincere compliments for your mod. It's simply fantastic. I hope that one day you will be able to create the Italian oob too. For now I wanted to tell you that in the scenarios you attached some things are missing: the texts of scenarios 574 and 575 and the file 575.dat which makes this last scenario unplayable. Many thanks again for your considerable effort. Max from Florence, Italy

Dear Mappo,

Good afternoon.

Many thanks for bringing this to my attention. I shall take a look what went wrong with the upload and post here, first, when I've fixed it.

I am very pleased to hear that you are enjoying the mod.

[Wiking]

Never thought I would see this updated, I still play the original release from time to time. I just spent an evening setting up the 2024 version, thank you very much for your hard work in keeping this project alive. It's been a delight!

[RecruitMonty]

Good morning, Gentlemen,

I am very happy to report that a new chapter of the mod is in the offing.

I'll be sharing some screenshots on here in due course of what to expect.

Best Regards,

Monty

[iln82]

Have you thought about adding the new experimental US tanks in the US OOB rather than the Green one?

For us that play campaigns it is the ONLY way to face them.

I know that there is no space available in the US OOB but some lesser units could always be deleted...no?

[RecruitMonty]

Have you thought about adding the new experimental US tanks in the US OOB rather than the Green one?

For us that play campaigns it is the ONLY way to face them.

I know that there is no space available in the US OOB but some lesser units could always be deleted...no?

I had thought about it, but as you say, units from the original OOB would need deleting. Now that's quite far above my pay grade to decide what should go or not go.

Now, those of you, who like to play as the USA in campaign, could give it some thought yourselves, with some rationales for why this or that unit shouldn't be in the main US OOB and perhaps then it may prove doable, but it is a can of worms I personally don't want to open.

[RecruitMonty]

Good evening, Gentlemen,

As promised, some screenshots of what to expect in the next release of the mod:

Revised late model Tiger III
https://i.postimg.cc/p9bzXNDm/Bild-2025-02-11-211946519.png (https://postimg.cc/p9bzXNDm)

Revised "heavy" Leopard 1 - 1A4 with 120mm
https://i.postimg.cc/D0565Zr5/Bild-2025-02-11-212209333.png (https://postimages.org/)

A new Panzerjäger - based on the E50 chassis (SPH configuration)
https://i.postimg.cc/jW6DvLBX/Bild-2025-02-11-212454763.png (https://postimg.cc/jW6DvLBX)

The precursor to the Leopard 2 - The Keiler
https://i.postimg.cc/hhc526Qb/Bild-2025-02-11-212551647.png (https://postimg.cc/hhc526Qb)

Another Leopard 2 prototype (PT11)
https://i.postimg.cc/gnQrWfh1/Bild-2025-02-11-212813352.png (https://postimg.cc/gnQrWfh1)

The FlakPz. MATADOR
https://i.postimg.cc/f3tRg5kD/Bild-2025-02-11-213120922.png (https://postimg.cc/f3tRg5kD)

MBB 125B - one of many examples of how the helicopter fleet has been overhauled
https://i.postimg.cc/3Wm5fVBt/Bild-2025-02-11-213401624.png (https://postimg.cc/3Wm5fVBt)

Weserflug (VFW) 56
https://i.postimg.cc/rKKLqsCw/Bild-2025-02-11-214024739.png (https://postimg.cc/rKKLqsCw)

MB 212
https://i.postimg.cc/v4xxj5P7/Bild-2025-02-11-214159553.png (https://postimg.cc/v4xxj5P7)

Merckle M101-Kranhubschrauber - Merckle had a skeletal proposal for a crane helicopter, this is based on that
https://i.postimg.cc/qhfj582W/Bild-2025-02-11-221703246.png (https://postimg.cc/qhfj582W)

MBB VAK-191 (late)
https://i.postimg.cc/rdbSpWjg/Bild-2025-02-11-224854484.png (https://postimg.cc/rdbSpWjg)

MBB VAK-191 (early)
https://i.postimg.cc/YvCQCxcK/Bild-2025-02-11-225020219.png (https://postimg.cc/YvCQCxcK)

Kawasaki OH-1
https://i.postimg.cc/hhbGXpY3/Bild-2025-02-11-214505932.png (https://postimg.cc/hhbGXpY3)

Mitsubishi Heavy Industries (MH 2000) - a contribution made possible by Oragus and Don
https://i.postimg.cc/5Yz6KJnx/Bild-2025-02-11-214633676.png (https://postimg.cc/5Yz6KJnx)

IJA Paratroops worthy of the name
https://i.postimg.cc/0M77M7gd/Bild-2025-02-11-214903590.png (https://postimg.cc/0M77M7gd)

IJA Airmobile
https://i.postimg.cc/WDzv17kC/Bild-2025-02-11-215019620.png (https://postimg.cc/WDzv17kC)

Anything the army can do we can do better
https://i.postimg.cc/5Yqyw3sg/Bild-2025-02-11-215131612.png (https://postimg.cc/5Yqyw3sg)

That concludes, the show and tell portion of the preview.

To the above, I can add that new icons now exist for the FlakPz. Gepard, for almost all of the helicopters (including some new additions, which fill gaps) and Japan finally has finished paratroops (incl. airmobile units and not just for the IJA either).

Some rudimentary attack helicopters have been created for Japan, based on their lighter helicopters (not shown above).

Finally, as you know, I can't leave well enough alone, so I re-worked all of the German and Japanese tank cannons, which I have added, in order to bring them more credibly into line with those of their peers. This was accomplished through the aid of a spreadsheet containing all the pertinent data from the guns already in the game. I know, I should get out more :smirk:.

Best Regards,

Monty

[WilliamB]

DRG has mentioned in some of his posts that they are adding extension OOB's for the U.S. and Russia in the next update. Maybe you could put them in there.

[RecruitMonty]

DRG has mentioned in some of his posts that they are adding extension OOB's for the U.S. and Russia in the next update. Maybe you could put them in there.

Thanks for the info. I shall look into it closer to the time.

[RecruitMonty]

https://images.gutefrage.net/media/fragen/bilder/was-ist-das-fuer-eine-fontschriftart-die-deutsche-wochenschau/0_full.webp?v=1517850022000

𝕯𝖆𝖘 𝕺𝖇𝖊𝖗𝖐𝖔𝖒𝖒𝖆𝖓𝖉𝖔 𝖉𝖊𝖗 𝖂𝖊𝖍𝖗𝖒𝖆𝖈𝖍𝖙 𝖌𝖎𝖇𝖙 𝖇𝖊𝖐𝖆𝖓𝖓𝖙 ...

Version 1.1.8P of WinSP MBT: Das Reich is available for download in patch form, below

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/d49fk2xlgxtikexshmmw1/ACJz-2bFRNXYzeFps4RzqgU?rlkey=qfl03d83zlkc6ksp8rkahhhsj&st=w9akr6oq&dl=0

Happy war gaming!

RecruitMonty

[scorpio_rocks]

Great Job! Excellent work on the readme pdf and the quality of the whole project.

[RecruitMonty]

:usaMy Fellow Americans, it is with great pride that I present to you ...:usa

the USA Patch to Version 1.1.8P of the WinSPMBT 𝕯𝖆𝖘 𝕽𝖊𝖎𝖈𝖍 mod

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/p3we4vmmunlq5vvjxm6fg/AGmQz3j5X3btIk3aClz0Gyg?rlkey=c5lf48nzdkvt4bjpkrnz zis6t&st=5vkeoker&dl=0

<a href='https://postimages.org/' target='_blank'><img src='https://i.postimg.cc/wxDVQZgZ/Bild-2025-02-27-222612233.png' border='0' alt='Bild-2025-02-27-222612233'/></a>

The screencap above shows the new M103 icons (T43E1, M103, M103A1, M103A2 and the fictional M103A3 HEAT Schürzen upgrade package).

These are available in the Green (42) OOB. The standard versions of the M103 in OOBs 12 (US Army) and 13 (USMC) have, naturally, also been updated with the new icons. This rounds out the available US heavy tanks.

In the future, I may add one or two more models - T110E5 and T58. With the T110E5, perhaps bridging the gap between the US heavies and the early Abrams.

I have not yet made any changes to the core USMC and USA OOBs to allow for direct purchase of the US heavies because in either case, too much OOB deletion and therefore rejigging would be involved.

Happy Wargaming.

[RecruitMonty]

Good evening, Gentlemen,

Please see all of the US's "Kitty Killers".

<a href='https://postimg.cc/JyFZxhRR' target='_blank'><img src='https://i.postimg.cc/JyFZxhRR/Bild-2025-03-10-190454995.png' border='0' alt='Bild-2025-03-10-190454995'/></a>

Notice, at the very bottom, the new 155mm Gun Tank T58 (in-mod "M58" and "M58A1").

<a href='https://postimg.cc/0r5dvrN2' target='_blank'><img src='https://i.postimg.cc/0r5dvrN2/Bild-2025-03-10-191309459.png' border='0' alt='Bild-2025-03-10-191309459'/></a>

With the addition of these two vehicles, I have completed the US's heavy tank motorpool, thus far.

With the mid to late 70s models of M60s and the Abrams coming online in the 80s, I think the US would be looking to de-emphasise lumbering heavy tanks as they did IRL by ca. 1973 in favour of the aforementioned backed up by rockets and airpower.

Expect to see a download link soon.

RecruitMonty

[RecruitMonty]

Good evening, Gents,

After working on US heavies, I was inspired to take another look at the Soviet heavy tank park for Das Reich.

<a href='https://postimg.cc/BLMRhtCS' target='_blank'><img src='https://i.postimg.cc/BLMRhtCS/Bild-2025-03-26-192551860.png' border='0' alt='Bild-2025-03-26-192551860'/></a>

I have re-worked the USSR's heavy tanks from the ground up with new or improved icons for the IS-3M, T-10 thru T-10M and I have added in some new heavy tanks to help bridge the gap between the T-10 and Obiekt 229 (known as T-13 in the mod).

Data I had on the Soviet's 130mm guns was incorrect, so these underwent some fine tuning. I have also duplicated the line up in the Red OOB.

In the picture provided you will see the complete roster, from the IS-3M thru to the T-13. Top row includes the IS-3M, the T-10, T-10A, T-10B and T-10M. Bottom row includes the IS-7 (same icon will be used for the IS-7M), the T-11 (Obiekt 277), the T-12 (Obiekt 770) and finally the T-13 (Obiekt 229).

When work and life permit me, I will load up another patch, which will contain the last of the US heavies (see previous post) and these Soviet heavies.

Best Regards,

RecruitMonty

[RecruitMonty]

Good afternoon, Gentlemen

I am pleased to announce that the 1.1.8P USA and USSR Patch () is ready for download.

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/tkcd9xfqsloy16przn1my/AAuMC-zJTXYb0wK9aMqIIcg?rlkey=mo3kpte44weyl0e0abjn4jst9&st=fr76ismm&dl=0

Happy Wargaming!

RecruitMonty

[oragus]

Good afternoon to you Monty,

Those icons look great!!! I can now take those off my personal redo list. Thank you so much!

[RecruitMonty]

Good afternoon, Oragus,

You are most kind. I am honoured.

I have been thinking about publishing them as a standalone as well, in the Misc. Icons thread. What do you think?

I have a question for you regarding the American heavies - if you wanted to go about adding a US Army roundel to the front sides of the turrets, how would you go about doing so?

I've tried a variety of approaches thus far and each time they came out looking more like the tank was under a flock of seagulls at the wrong time than the classic roundel, if you catch my drift.

Best Regards,

Monty