Nations 2 - MA, CBM 1.92, no diplo, no indies - Larz/Mictlan wins!

[Valerius]

Another experimental game. The theme this time is no indies. And I mean *no* indies:

* We will play on a no indie map

* Mercenary recruitment is not allowed

* All magic sites that allow commander/unit recruitment have been removed

* Well of Misery moved to Evo. 8

So you will have to rely on your national units and whatever you can summon. Obviously this will make it more difficult to compensate for your weaknesses; but it will also make it harder for others to counter your strengths. Also, keep in mind that if you want to actually have a scout network you'll need to devote fort recruitment turns to that (so, it's kind of like an EA game in that respect ;)).

Because tarts provide so much magic diversity late game I've moved WoM to Evo. 8 (and even aside from that issue I like having it not be in Conj. and have done that in previous games). But other than that I haven't made any other changes from base CBM 1.92.

I've attached a modified version of CBM to this post. This is the only mod you'll need active when creating your pretender. There's also a debug version of the mod that has a 1 gem version of Acashic Record for each path. Feel free to start a game with every nation starting with 9 provinces and then just start casting that. Please let me know if you come across any sites that I've missed (thought I had them all but I found another one today). It goes without saying that if you find one after the game has started you shouldn't use it.


Settings

Age: MA
Players: 6
Diplomacy: None
Banned nations: all water nations
Hosting: llamaserver
Hosting interval: 24 hours up to turn 25, 48 hours up to turn 50, 72 hours from then on
Mods: modified version of CBM 1.92
Map: No indie version of Realm of Rampaging Roaches (will attach to post when map is ready)
HoF: 15
All other settings default
Exploits: Don't use them of course. Also, if you do come across a site that allows recruitment don't use it.


Roster

C'tis - Slobby
Eriu - Valerius
Mictlan - Larz
Pangaea - ghoul31
Shinuyama - Reverend Zombie
Vanheim - KeithZ

[Larz]

This sounds fun, I'll take Mictlan.

[Valerius]

Welcome!

I think it will be interesting. The big change is really the no indies aspect since everyone won't have acccess to archers and N magic.

As far as removing magic sites, sometimes it's almost like they weren't in the game anyway. I've had some recent games where nobody found any first class indie mages (enchantresses, adepts, crystal mages, etc.). But this will make sure that people really have to get the most out of their national units.

[ghoul31]

Pangea

[Valerius]

Welcome, ghoul. Different than your usual style of nation - I think this is the first time I've seen you take a stealth focused nation.

[Slobby]

Ctis - by no indies do you mean no recruitable indies and 0 independent strength? Or just no recruitable indes?

[shard]

Will doing this lower the number of magic sites in total? Or will normal gem sites be increased in number to make up for it?

[Valerius]

Ctis - by no indies do you mean no recruitable indies and 0 independent strength? Or just no recruitable indes?

Welcome! It's just no recruitable indies, you'll still face opposition taking the province (this will be at the default setting of 5).


Will doing this lower the number of magic sites in total? Or will normal gem sites be increased in number to make up for it?

No, magic site setting will be at default level and you can expect a normal gem income. This will just remove some sites from being eligible to be placed on the map.

[Valerius]

If shard decides to play we'll be at 5 players. I figure I'll leave it open for recruitment through the weekend (these experimental games take more time to fill than default settings) and then we can choose a map based on the numbers of players we've got at that point (say 12-15 prov average).

[KeithZ]

The game sounds interesting.

I'd like to play and will decide a nation later, in servral hours I think.

[KeithZ]

Vanheim.

[Valerius]

Welcome! We've now got 5 players, enough for a game. I'll leave recruitment open another 24 hours and then we'll get things started.

[Reverend Zombie]

I'd like to join as Shinuyama, please.

[Valerius]

Welcome! Could just be a coincidence but I notice five of six nations have some N magic. Not sure if not having virtually guaranteed indie mage access to that path factored into people's nation choices. I think one of the things that makes that path less valuable is that it's typically so easy to access.

[shard]

I am very interested in the concept but I am in a couple of other games already so I won't be able to commit. Well unless I suffer unforeseen disasters in either of those games at least...

[Valerius]

That's a good call - taking on too many games turns them all into chores rather than fun. Maybe next time (assuming the concept is successful - sometimes these experimental games work, sometimes not).

[Valerius]

Here are some map possibilities. I'm also open to suggestions. 12-15 provinces/player would be good and it would be nice to have a few water provinces both to break up the terrain and provide a chance for nations with special abilities like sailing or amphibious to make use of them.

Sixlands (http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Six_Lands)
Balanced and well tested. An excellent map, the only drawbacks being that it doesn't look as nice as vfb's other map (Five Lands) and I've played about a million games on it.

Threelake (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=35952)
I really like the look of this map and the way it plays but starting in the center area of the map is a definite disadvantage.

Greenland (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=46770)
Blatant self-promotion. ;) I made this map a while back - like Sixlands but not as balanced. Not really sure how it would play.

Post Diluvium (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=47768)
One of the players made this for the Myth game and I think it plays really well. I'd just remove most of the water provinces for this game (it's actually a bad situation for a water nation anyway).

Realm of Rampaging Roaches (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=47463)
Elmokki has a lot of good maps but they tend to have a little more water than we're looking for. This map might work, though.

[Larz]

Of these choice I would probably prefer Roaches, but don't have a strong opinion.

[Valerius]

Ok, the game is setup on the server. I just have a placeholder map selected for now so the game doesn't start before we choose a map.

Unfortunately, I wasn't paying attention when I uploaded the mod and accidentally uploaded it as a nation mod. :doh: I'm going to ask llama to delete that version but I went ahead and uploaded it under a different name in order to get the game setup.

* So please download the revised mod from the first post. *

[Slobby]

2nd roaches

[Valerius]

Ok, I'll add my vote to your two votes so that's three votes in favor of Roaches and three abstentions so that's the map we'll go with.

I'll have a no indie version of the map ready by tomorrow. Feel free to already upload your pretenders and then I'll start the game once the map is done.

Also, at the risk of stating the obvious I just want to remind everyone to keep in mind what paths they'll need to access summons. I'm sometimes willing to roll the dice and gamble on indies supplementing what my national mages and pretender bring to the table but that won't be an option here.

[Valerius]

I've uploaded the no indies version of the map to the server and set the game to autostart once all pretenders are in.

Please download the map from the first post. And of course send in your pretenders so we can get things started. :)

[Larz]

Just want to reiterate the rules so there is no confusion.

- No diplomacy
- No recruiting Indies (including Mercenaries and any sites that may have slipped through your mod).

Also, are we going to have any victory conditions? Last one standing/consensus? Number of caps held?

I think I have my pretender ready, will be sending in soon.

[Valerius]

- No diplomacy
- No recruiting Indies (including Mercenaries and any sites that may have slipped through your mod).

Yes, that's right. Thanks for the reminder as I wanted to especially repeat the part about no mercenaries since many people are so used to using them they may recruit them without thinking. Once again: no mercs! :)


Also, are we going to have any victory conditions? Last one standing/consensus? Number of caps held?

I was planning on going with the last man standing/consensus approach. I haven't been too fond of the caps as VPs system we used in Myth. Seems like it just resulted in people taking turns getting dogpiled as they got too many caps. Also, if someone thinks they can pull off a long term strategy with relatively few provinces I'd like that option available rather than forcing them into war to stop someone else from getting caps.

[ghoul31]

which mod are we using? nations_2v2, nations 2v2 debug, or both?

[Slobby]

which mod are we using? nations_2v2, nations 2v2 debug, or both?

nations 2v2

[Valerius]

Good grief, it looks like I need to remind myself of the no mercs rule. I usually forget to even check the available mercs so of course this game I not only remember to check but recruit one. :doh: Luckily, I realized what I'd done a minute later and cancelled my bid.

Anyway, I hope everyone enjoys the game!

[Larz]

I'm going to need a 48 hour extension on the next turn. I got the current turn in, but not sure I can take another until Sunday morning (GMT). Thanks.

[Valerius]

Sure, no problem. 48 hours have been added.

[Valerius]

Actually, I postponed things a turn too early. The current turn has now been postponed until Sunday.

[KeithZ]

Something wrong happened and I can't open the latest turn.

Maybe I need the Worthy hero Mod?

[Valerius]

Worthy Heroes is included in CBM and that appears to be a missing sprite error. If you look in your mods folder do you see a Worthy_Heroes folder, and inside there the Loki_1.tga graphic?

[Larz]

Something wrong happened and I can't open the latest turn.

Maybe I need the Worthy hero Mod?

You need to install CBM 1.92. It contains all of the sprites you need. These were not included in the custom mod attached to this thread.

[KeithZ]

Problem solved.

I created an folder named "worthy_heroes", and moved the Loki.tga file into it. It works.:) It's strange that I have the file in my CBM folder but there is just no "worthy_heroes" folder.

[Valerius]

As per the game description, hosting interval has been changed to 48 hours.

[Valerius]

Reverend Zombie will be on vacation from 4/26 to 5/1 and has asked that the game be put on hold during that period. It's a short enough time that I don't think it worth looking for a temp sub.

[Larz]

I am going to need an extension on the next turn. I will be out of town and not able to take another turn until 5/29. Thanks.

[Valerius]

No problem, hosting postponed a couple of days.

[Valerius]

I just realized I forgot to change the hosting interval when we reached turn 50. We are now on 72 hour hosting.

[Valerius]

Question for all nations who are not Mictlan: do you think we have any chance? ;) I'm quite willing to keep fighting if there's a chance of victory but I suspect that's not the case. Shall we declare Mictlan the winner?

[KeithZ]

I agree to declare Mictlan the winner.

[Reverend Zombie]

And here I thought Eriu and Shinuyama were just getting on a roll...

[Valerius]

RZ, are you joking? If you're serious then by all means let's play on. I'm quite willing to fight against the odds but I don't want to waste everyone's time if the outcome isn't in doubt.

[Reverend Zombie]

I'd like to see one more turn before I throw in the towel.

[Valerius]

Absolutely! Let's play at least one more turn and see how things go.

[Valerius]

Sorry for the stale. I postponed hosting and the server log shows that request but the game still ended up hosting.

[KeithZ]

I think it's about time to end this game and claim mictlan the winner.
Really no reason to continue...

[Reverend Zombie]

Very well; I concede too!

[Reverend Zombie]

So:

All hail to Lars! Congratulations to you, sir.

I :bow: before the might of your Zmeys!

[Valerius]

Indeed, all hail Mictlan! My stale last turn was unfortunate but I don't think it made any difference. I don't know if everyone noticed but the earth blood deep well I used all my E gems to put up a few turns ago was casually dispelled just a turn later. :p

It looked to me like Mictlan was the front runner from fairly early on. It seemed like his war with Van was hard fought, with Van recovering from Mictlan's surprise attack before Mictlan finally won out.

When I opened my first turn I cursed myself for not doing fixed starts since I was on a peninsula with only two neighboring provinces. On top of that I lost my starting army in its first fight and Van soon appeared to my east and Pan to my west. It appeared Shin was off to a slow start as well so I was able to expand a bit to the south but I still finished expansion with only 6 provinces - not an auspicious start.

Soon after, Pan launched an attack with his E9 sacreds backed by an army of maenads. My cap walls were immediately breached and I just managed to fend him off. Then I had my one piece of luck this game when C'tis launched what seemed to be a suicide run, attacking Pan, Shin and even Van and myself. This provided a distraction to Pan and I was able to field a couple of thugs and some thunderstrikers and eventually besiege his cap and two other forts. I don't think I would have ever taken his cap if he hadn't tried to break my siege and lost most of his Pans when his forces were routed. Even with that, it took forever to make progress, what with hundreds of maenads already inside. Then I had to redirect those forces to his other two forts, which had their own maenad garrisons.

Mictlan was obviously running away with the game so once I finally finished off Pan I was going to prepare for a couple of turns and then launch an attack on Mictlan, hoping Shin would join in. I was dismayed when Shin attacked me before I could do this and tried to send a signal that I didn't want to fight by only defending and not launching any counterattacks. I don't know if this would have worked but it become a moot point when Mictlan launched a broad attack on Shin. I immediately attacked Mictlan since of course if Shin fell the game was over. But of course it turned out to be too late.

Btw, I have to say I wasn't too fond of my "absolutely no indies" settings this game. Maybe I'd feel differently if I had gotten off to a better start but I don't think so.

Thanks everyone for playing!

[Larz]

Short recap of the game:

45F gems a turn + Conj 30 site = drown the world in Zmey :)

Longer recap:

That was a good game, guys. It had a nice pace and everyone stuck out to the end. I really liked the no indies aspect as it reduced some of the micromanagement for me (remembering which province has that nice indy, which one has the scouts, etc). I think the no diplo aspect of the game probably helped me as it made it harder to coordinate ganging up on me when I started taking a lead in the graphs. I kept expecting to get ganged up on, but it never happened.

My strategy was to use a good bless (with bad scales) to do quick early expansion and then to break into blood, even though MA Mictlan is not really a blood nation. I was going to use my pretender to do this but got really lucky on the second turn and got a blood hero and a blood random Nahouli (2.5% chance). So, I was able to break into blood before my pretender even woke up.

With that early expansion I was able to put up more castles and started cranking out Nahouli. They only gave me 4RP (with the drain scale I took), but are pretty cheap at 110g. Once I was able to build up a large number of these, my research really took off. Finding the Conj 30 site was another huge lucky break. Actually I also found a Conj 20 site in the same province as the Conj 30 site. For a few seconds I thought I was going to get a 50% bonus, but alas, they do not stack:)

I was then able to crank out the nice Mictlan national summons to get some diversity and got the two Kings of elemental fire to become my Zmey factory.

I think maybe Zmey are a little OP. I know Llama has mentioned possibly nerfing them a little in the next CBM (maybe upping the path requirements, though that wouldn't have mattered in this game). Maybe making the Lycanth amulets more expensive may help a little. For 5N they turn Zmey into Kamikaze death machines.

Thanks again everyone for a good game.

[Valerius]

Short recap of the game:

45F gems a turn + Conj 30 site = drown the world in Zmey :)

Yikes. I thought you were running away with the game just looking at gem income. Finding out you had a Conj. 30 site on top of it makes me think we could have called the game 10 turns ago. ;)


I kept expecting to get ganged up on, but it never happened.

I was hoping to start a dogpile of you ASAP but it just took forever to take Pan's forts. In addition to needing them as bases I didn't want to have him at my back after I had begun fighting you so I felt I had to finish him first. Though I'm curious why Shin didn't help Van when it became clear you were getting the upper hand in that war.


I think maybe Zmey are a little OP. I know Llama has mentioned possibly nerfing them a little in the next CBM (maybe upping the path requirements, though that wouldn't have mattered in this game). Maybe making the Lycanth amulets more expensive may help a little. For 5N they turn Zmey into Kamikaze death machines.

Admittedly, I have an intense hatred of lychantropos' amulets, but I think making them more expensive would be helpful. They are pretty much a perfect fit for zmey - not only do you get regen at half the cost you'd otherwise pay but it removes morale as a weakness that can be targeted.

[Reverend Zombie]

Short recap of the game:

45F gems a turn + Conj 30 site = drown the world in Zmey :)

Yikes. I thought you were running away with the game just looking at gem income. Finding out you had a Conj. 30 site on top of it makes me think we could have called the game 10 turns ago. ;)


I kept expecting to get ganged up on, but it never happened.

I was hoping to start a dogpile of you ASAP but it just took forever to take Pan's forts. In addition to needing them as bases I didn't want to have him at my back after I had begun fighting you so I felt I had to finish him first. Though I'm curious why Shin didn't help Van when it became clear you were getting the upper hand in that war.


I was at "peace" with all my neighbors BUT Van--I chose them as my target pretty early on, and tried unsuccessfully to take their capital a couple of times.

I stepped aside when the Mictlan juggernaut came through, went looking for easier pickings. (Pangaea started a fight with me, too, at some point in there.)

I was pretty sure I didn't have what it took to take on Mictlan.

I was right.:)