Tax Advice

[Balaskar]

I'm a mp noob and am trying to figure out the best taxing strategy for my provinces. Searched the forums but couldn't find any info. Anybody have any advice? Thanks!

[sansanjuan]

Early (1st couple turns )game many folks overtax and patrol their.cap. Early money leverages into faster expansion etc.. The rate depends on efficiency of the patrolling force. Caleum being best. Most around 140 if memory serves to balance unrest. Try a test game. Blood hunting has similar mechanics but you lower and/or patrol to offset that unrest.
ssj

[Torgon]

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/10701954/Taxing%20Calculations%20v2.xlsx


I put this together awhile back. Calculations for various tax rates, scales, patrolling, etc. Shows break even points, cumulative income etc.

It not specifically a strategy. But it can come in handy when considering a strategy.

However, the bottom line conclusion I draw from it is two fold. One, overtaxing is very powerful in that the break even point for cumulative gold is fairly late in the game. Depending on scales, admin, etc. often after turn 40 or 50. And gold early is always worth far more than gold late.

Two. Overtaxing is more or less powerful depending on the scales you have chosen. Because of the way income in calculated (basically everything is multiplied together), that when a high tax rate is multiplied by the already high income from good scales the effect is even more dramatic. Opposite with bad scales.

[Balaskar]

Wow! Thanks to both of you for the great advice... this helps a lot!

[Knai]

That covers most things, but there are also a few specific edge cases which need to be (re)emphasized. The most critical of these are temporarily occupied enemy provinces, which should probably be taxed at 200. Others are low population provinces with gold generating sites, in which killing all the population via overtaxing, patrolling, and similar measures then keeping it at 200 to milk the sites is beneficial. Provinces you expect to lose soon should also probably be taxed at 200, so as to get the most out of them.

[Soyweiser]

Check your manual for which units can patrol the best. And then you need to get a feeling for how much you can overtax and still not get unrest.

Btw, patrolling is a dice roll, so it might not catch all unrest. And overtaxation reduces population. Check the manual.

[JonBrave]

Two. Overtaxing is more or less powerful depending on the scales you have chosen. Because of the way income in calculated (basically everything is multiplied together), that when a high tax rate is multiplied by the already high income from good scales the effect is even more dramatic. Opposite with bad scales.

That one seems to me to depend on what you mean by "more dramatic". As you say, since most everything is multiplied together, you get more of an absolute number but equally you lose more in the long run --- it's just percentages. From the manual, the only thing I see which does "make a difference" is that patrolling kills a fixed 10 people per 1 point of unrest eliminated, and that will make much more difference to a small province than a large one.

[Bat/man]

Hmm. I'm pretty sure thats wrong.
it seems like killing 20 unrest is pretty reliably killing 700 people.

[Calahan]

Hmm. I'm pretty sure thats wrong.
it seems like killing 20 unrest is pretty reliably killing 700 people.
Wow, you're really getting your figures screwed up there aren't you. Are you by any chance confusing the pop loss from overtaxing with the pop loss from patrolling away unrest?

Because if patrolling away 20 unrest cost 700 population, then the often seen plan of patrolling (to keep unrest down) while blood hunting would be instantly ruinous to future slave production, but since it's seen all the time it's safe to say your figures are wrong.

(why don't people ever run quick and simple tests before posting such things)

[Amhazair]

Note that overtaxing itself also causes a population loss. (Don't know the rate offhand, so not sure if that can explain the population loss you experienced.) As far as I remember the formulas in the manual haven't been disproved though, so should be easy enough to check.

[JonBrave]

According to the manual, each 3% tax > 100% kills 0.1% population. (I wonder if that should be 5%, so that unrest +/-1 per 3% is symmetrical?)

But per my agument, that's just percentages anyway, when you figure the final income. The only "difference" remains the fixed 10 people per 1 unrest, assuming that is correct.

A gentler suggestion to @Bat/man is that 700 pop for 20 unrest would be way too high... Mind you... 200 dead to patrol away that leaves 500, at 200% tax above formula (assume 3%) would cost 3.3%, I make that 15,000-ish population to see 700 die on tax at 200% plus patrol 20 unrest down to 0... ?

[Bat/man]

Hmm. I'm pretty sure thats wrong.
it seems like killing 20 unrest is pretty reliably killing 700 people.
Wow, you're really getting your figures screwed up there aren't you. Are you by any chance confusing the pop loss from overtaxing with the pop loss from patrolling away unrest?

Because if patrolling away 20 unrest cost 700 population, then the often seen plan of patrolling (to keep unrest down) while blood hunting would be instantly ruinous to future slave production, but since it's seen all the time it's safe to say your figures are wrong.

(why don't people ever run quick and simple tests before posting such things)
What exactly is your beef? Taxing at 200 and patrolling in a starting population kills roughly 700.

[Soyweiser]

His beef is this.

Taxing at 200 and patrolling != killing 20 unrest

Note: != means, is not equal to.

Killing 20 unrest kills 200 people. Not 700.

[Bat/man]

Hrm. Sorry. Your previous comment was that over taxing killed a number of people that was in the manual.

On JonBrave's next comment he was saying it killed 1 for 10. I glossed that he was only talking about patrolling for unrest.

I was trying to give OP a measure of how much population he would lose per turn IF he overtaxed at 200 and IF he patrolled to control the unrest on a starting location. The topic is overtaxing.

OF course it varies on how many people are caught by patrolling and what your growth scale is (well, growth scale doesnt' affect number killed, but it does affect the net loss (Pop killed - pop grown due to growth scale).