Niefelheim vs Hinnom

[mrlich]

Which one is stronger? I like using a few super soldiers in SP and thought about which would be better. Niefelheim has +3 Cold scales while Hinnom only gets a +2 Heat advantage. Nief giants get cold aura, Hinnom does not. Hinnom don't need to eat, but that's an afterthought after you consider the fact that they eat the local population down to nothing and make dissent skyrocket. Are the lords of civilization really worth it to spend so many blood slaves on just to get a slightly better soldier?

[Doo]

Depends if you like chariots or not.

[decourcy]

Niefel giants are the best recruitable in the game in my opinion.

[rdonj]

The lords of civilization are definitely better than you're giving them credit for.

[mrlich]

The lords of civilization are definitely better than you're giving them credit for.

Are they stronger than niefel jarls?

[Admiral_Aorta]

They're the most powerful summons in the game, outside of maybe the chayot. They're not just 'slightly' better giants.

[Soyweiser]

Nief is a lot better at bloodhunting. And their mages have better randoms.

While hinnoms troops are excellent (dawn guard), their pop eating mechanic seems to make them a bit harder to play.

Of course, I have a soft spot for skrattir.

I think the niefel giants are a trap. To expensive. The Jarls are nice when supported with other troops. But SC's are a bit fragile imho. (I think only air, water and astral don't have a easy way to entangle SC's or just deal with them)

[Shardphoenix]

air, water and astral don't have a easy way to entangle SC's or just deal with them I think, Astral is THE anti-SC path. Just stellar cascade all SC you see.

[decourcy]

I ran a three human, 7 AI game as Niefelheim and i rushed everyone to death with Niefels. E9, N6.

I think that almost always paying for a high end bless is a trap and not worth the hobbling of your nation to do it, but for Niefel, pfah, it works.

Mike

[Soyweiser]

I think that almost always paying for a high end bless is a trap and not worth the hobbling of your nation to do it, but for Niefel, pfah, it works.

Mike

Just because nobody spammed earth meld or life for a life in that game doesn't make it that great of a tactic. Also, nobody remote attacked your capital. (each turn it is locked down, is one less SC) Skelly spam under heat dominion. Etc. A nation build on a single trick is a nation easily defeated. With 150 a piece troops, and 600 a piece commanders, there isn't enough gold to properly do multiple tactics.

I think, Astral is THE anti-SC path. Just stellar cascade all SC you see.

Sure, but those need a few more mages. Which imho isn't the easy way. I was referring more to the simple hold fast spells. cascades is a battle winner if massed enough. But in theory you are right. Once the barrage begins, the SC is history.

[mrlich]

Do the lords of civilization have the same pop-eating mechanics as the recruitable Hinnom giants have?

[Admiral_Aorta]

maybe you should summon one and find out!

[Soyweiser]

Or use the wayback machine on the wiki or Edi's DB to check.

[mrlich]

Or use the wayback machine on the wiki or Edi's DB to check.

Didn't find them in Edi's DB. Did not find wayback machine. Do not have enough blood magic to summon. Wondering if they're worth it.

[Admiral_Aorta]

debug mods are cool

[rdonj]

We have already told you that they're worth it. So let's try again. They're worth it. Especially in MP. In SP they're just overkill. They are, in fact, so powerful that it should be almost literally impossible to lose one in SP. And if you do lose one, it's your fault, because you should not be capable of losing them to anything the AI can throw at you. But summon them and see. Also, I don't know what version of edi's database you're using, but I can find them clearly and easily listed under Grigori in the latest version.

[Doo]

Or use the wayback machine on the wiki or Edi's DB to check.

Didn't find them in Edi's DB. Did not find wayback machine. Do not have enough blood magic to summon. Wondering if they're worth it.

As I stated at the start, it all comes down to if you like chariots or not. Whipping those around you into a fury and then seeing where the ride takes you, nothing like chariots for a bit of fun.

[mrlich]

I'm finding Niefelheim with a good N8E9 bless strategy to be more effective than Hinnom. Basically, Hinnom does not let you mass any sacred troops or even high level sacred researchers without catastrophic population devouring effects. Even their only sacred non-commander devours population. Pretty soon the population in that province gets really upset and finally becomes extinct. That's pretty catastrophic for a nation with really expensive sacred troops on which you're supposed to rely. So you're left with leading your armies with cyclops pretender and one or two sacred giants, one of whom you prophet. Anymore and it becomes a micromanaging battle to keep your population alive. No more than 1 giant per province!

It's just too long a wait for Lords of Civilization, which is a really high blood summon. And since you picked N and E for bless, you have to empower all the way from 2-3 blood magic skill which takes forever, not to mention research blood magic to the high levels.

With Niefelheim, you can start massing the niefel giants and jarls from turn 2.

[Admiral_Aorta]

Hinnom are perfectly viable as a scales nation, you're not forced to use the sacreds.

[rdonj]

As admiral aorta said hinnom is perfectly viable as a scales nation. You have access to all magic paths except for water natively, so there's no need for a rainbow pretender. And growth 3 will help significantly with the eating everything problem and help power their blood hunting. There's also no strict *need* to recruit lots of their sacred researchers... kohen are a lot less useful magic-wise than ammi are, you should think of them more as thugs, although obviously they're better at this with a bless.

Further, there is no need to use the sacred troops of either nation. Niefel giants can be very powerful when massed together, but it's too expensive to buy them in numbers that way, and niefel jarls can do the job as well. A single jarl is enough to take most indy provinces, and two can take any but the most painful. So there's no need in the early game to build niefel giants. The same goes for hinnom giants for the most part, except that their troop sacred isn't as good. You *can* use them, and you may consider buying one on the first turn when you can't buy the commander version. But afterwards it's much more useful to buy the commanders instead.

The existence of the grigori is immaterial to all of this. Grigori are a late game summon, and they are stupidly powerful whether you have a strong bless for them or not. So no, you won't be using them for a while, and you can't design your nation solely around their existence. But when you can make them, they are 100% worth their cost. The recruitable SCs of either nation have nothing on the grigori. Just think of them as what they are - late game SCs.

Also why are you leading your armies with national commanders instead of indy commanders?

[Admiral_Aorta]

clearly the grigori should be recruitable because how else will hinnom face the might of blessed niefel giants?

[mrlich]

Also why are you leading your armies with national commanders instead of indy commanders?

Because I like the commander to contribute to the battle after he is done buffing. Prophets get divine blessing unlike most priests and prophet makes the unit free of upkeep. So you may as well pick the strongest, most expensive unit to be the prophet. I also noticed that big armies of strong units don't get chipped away at like they would if they had only a few troops.

[Redeyes]

Also why are you leading your armies with national commanders instead of indy commanders?

Because I like the commander to contribute to the battle after he is done buffing. Prophets get divine blessing unlike most priests and prophet makes the unit free of upkeep. So you may as well pick the strongest, most expensive unit to be the prophet. I also noticed that big armies of strong units don't get chipped away at like they would if they had only a few troops.If the Hinnom commander eats population you obviously shouldn't use it, but use an independent commander instead. It helps that using independent commander near universally is the better option.