Faded Magic - no diplo, CBM 1.92, limited magic - KeithZ/Pythium wins!

[Valerius]

This is the latest in a series of games in which the central theme is to limit magic to midgame levels. Each game has mixed in other aspects such as no indies, no research required, Assimilation mod, etc. This time around I'm going with a fairly straightforward approach:

* CBM 1.92 with magic limited to level 6 (with a few exceptions - see changelog)

* Also: Monsters! Here I'm defining a monster as a creature without full slots - in short, not an SC. That means tart monstrums, tarrasques and abominations make the cut.

* And Dragons! I've added Fire, Frost and Forest dragons as summons. I think they're usable, but not OP.

In previous iterations I based these games on CBM 1.6. It was what I was most familiar with and thus found easiest to balance. But it's time to move on. I can't make guarantees as to balance. I've done my best to take the limited magic and my experience with the previous games into account when making changes but I'm sure there will be some balance issues.

Basically the way it breaks down is you'll have tough, high HP non-humanoid monsters without full slots and physically weaker thugs that have full slots. Magic also plays a huge role; evocation magic can be especially devastating. If you think you might be interested download the attached mod and give it a try (play on easy research so you can quickly access all the spells).



Player Conduct

Just want to talk about this a bit before getting further into the game details.

Dominions is of course competitive but it is also, in a sense, cooperative. Sometimes things just go to hell: you get dogpiled early, expansion is a disaster, etc. But you keep playing and trying your best for the sake of the other players - and you hope that they'll return the favor in another game if they're the ones having a disastrous game.

So I ask that everyone play things through to the end (keep in mind that with these non-standard settings I may have a difficult time finding subs). And this doesn't have to be miserable. I view last stands as almost a mini-game: how long can I last with my limited resources.

Of course real life takes precedence and it may be that you are unable to continue. If you can PM me to let me know I'd appreciate it but really I only ask that you don't set yourself AI. This gives me the chance to look for a sub. Also, please do not password protect your pretenders so that a sub will be able to step in if needed.

Thanks!



Settings

Age: MA
Players: 5-8
Diplomacy: None
Banned nations: all water nations
Hosting: llamaserver
Hosting interval: 24 hours up to turn 20, 48 hours up to turn 40, 72 hours from then on
Mods: modified version of CBM 1.92 (attached to post)
Map: TBD
HoF: 15
All other settings default
Exploits: Don't use them.



Player roster

ghoul31 - Agartha
KeithZ - Pythium
Ragnarok-X - Jotunheim
Samhain - Ulm
shard - Shinuyama
tratorix - Arcoscephale
Valerius - Caelum



Changelog


Nation changes
--------------

Ashdod:
Adons & Talmai Elder - 3 --> 2 misc slots
Talmai Elder - 600 --> 500 gold
Dirge for the Dead - removed
Call Malakh - 12 gems
Summon Se'irim - 42 slaves
Summon Shedim - 32 slaves
Comments: What an irritating nation (though not as much as Hinnom). Was just going to remove the ridiculous extra slot on the adons and talmai elders and then saw that dirge for the dead spell and knocked that out as well. Then added in some blood nerfs as well. But hey, at I didn't ban them as I was tempted to - and I actually decreased the cost of the talmai elder.

Jotun:
skratti - +1 enc in werewolf form
Along with Ashdod, another giant nation banned in earlier games due to the problems of borderline SCs in a no-SC game. Skratti lovers will hate the boost to encumbrance but I hardly think it's crippling. If Jotun dominates then back to the drawing board.

Ulm:
National holy spells removed (elemental resist / halting spells / blessing of iron) - removed
Drain Magic - removed
Iron Angel - removed
Forge of Ulm - removed
Funny thing about Ulm. The old, weak, CBM 1.6 Ulm actually did fine in the earlier games. A couple dozen mages spamming magma eruption goes a long way under these settings. Despite the multiple nerfs they are still stronger than the previous version was and I'm convinced they'll be competitive.

Pan:
Carrion Woods - removed
No maenad spawning; summon maenad spells (10/1 N gem)
No carrion centaur/lady/lord; national version of construct manikin (10/3 N gems)
Gorgon - removed
One of the free spawn nations, they were initially banned and allowed in last game with the changes above. I played them last game and chose a gorgon pretender who IMO is OP for these settings (I stopped using her midgame because of this) so she's out as well.

Ermor:
No summon undead ability; have national version of pale riders (Ench. 0, D3, 3 gems, 20+ units)
Freespawn isn't as annoying as Pan's given the malus on defending forts but still was removed.

Bandar:
Summon Dakini - 100 slaves
Just a blood nerf (plenty more of those below).

Agartha:
Locus of the seal unit removed (no darkness on PD)
Avatar of Darkness is no longer a unit but a national version of Darkness spell (D3, 3 gems)
No darkness on PD and changed the summonable unit into a national version of the darkness spell. You'll need to get a D3 mage but once you do you'll have darkness much cheaper than anyone else.

Eriu:
Sidhe Lord - no autoentangle
AOE entangle weapons are cheap. If the thug can't land a hit he doesn't deserve to entangle the opponent.

Van:
Vanjarl 240 --> 280 gold
IMO the 50% B random on vanjarls is better than a dousing bonus would have been. Given that, I'm restoring their cost to the original 280 gold.



Summons
-------

Zmey
The feared zmey is still present, though one of the more expensive summons. Prot decreased by 2 points to 20 and misc slots from 3 to 2 (I know usually all three slots aren't used but the increased cost of the lychantropos' amulet may change this).

Ettin
The Rodney Dangerfield of EDM summons gets a chance to shine as the only size 6 unit with full slots (extra ones in fact). Given the context, cost increased to 20 gems and level to 6.

Wendigo
Wendigo moves into a thug role (though a very high powered thug) maxing out at size 4 and W3D3. This should be a very popular summon.

Tartarian Monstrum
You know how the great thing about tarts is the combination SC/magic diversity? Well, they pretty much fulfill the same role here, but in a diluted form. Just like with the ettin, the least of them gets a chance to shine. Two level two randoms and two misc slots (as well as a head slot) mean they provide the best magic diversity around. High HP and flight and the chance of A/S magic also means they can fulfill a raiding role. I expect we'll see a lot of these. Oh, and they don't have that annoying shattered soul or come with afflictions.

Dragons
That's right, dragons. They are basically combat spellcasters and raiders (though not as good in the latter role as a zmey or in the former role as a tart monstrum). They have level 3 F/W/N magic, base MR of 20, and head + 2 misc slots. The fire dragon is the best offensively: with a reinvig item, skull of fire and phoenix power he's a falling fires machine. The frost dragon is amphibious and the forest dragon has recuperation.



Spell changes
-------------

No globals
No reason to hoard gems. Provinces = power so use your gems to summon and forge so you can get more provinces.

Restore Soul - 10 gems
Normally this is for tarts - here it's basically to avoid umbral thugs being too cheap.

Darkness - D5 / 5 gems
Hard to cast normally, even harder to cast here.

Iron Bane - E5 / 5 gems
More difficult to cast and much more expensive

Leprosy - 8 --> 15 gems, MRN easily
Afflictions are serious business here without GoH, chalice or even faery queens.

Horror Mark - costs 1 gem
Don't like this spell and don't want people who go with SC pretenders to have them sidelined that easily.

Communion Master/Slave - increase fatigue 20-->30
No rain of stones makes life a lot safer for communions. Bit of an increase in fatigue to offset this.

Transformation - level 7 spell but stays in
A level 7 spell that I'm just keeping in for the fun of it.

Weapons Sharpness - level 7 spell but stays in with aoe 2
A powerful level 7 spell that I'm deliberately leaving in since I think it has an important role to play against thugs and monsters. AOE much smaller, though. Ulm will be able to maximize use of this better than anyone.

Everything below here is blood nerfs because I think it's a good idea (something to keep in mind is that given the limited research you won't have much of an opportunity cost for blood hunting - combine that with growth scales and blood will be a powerhouse even with some of these cost increases and spell eliminations).

Sabbath Master/Slave - fat 100, costs 1 slave

Rain of Toads - 20 slaves / level 6

Send Lesser Horror - 15 slaves

Bind Succubus - 66 --> 45 slaves (ok, this price is actually decreased as I don't know why this unit is that expensive)

Ritual of the Five Gates - 24 --> 35 slaves

Blood rite, blood rain, bloodletting, hellbind heart, bind ice devil, infernal disease - removed



Magic item changes
------------------

No unique items

Bane venom charm - 15 gems
Afflictions are serious business here without GoH, chalice or even faery queens.

Soul contract, jade knife, lifelong protection - removed
More blood nerfs.

Lychantropos' amulet to 10n
5N is too cheap when you consider the aggravation this causes with commanders picking it up. Also, this makes it less of a no-brainer for zmeys.



Misc changes
------------

Removed bugged ettin site



Tentative roster for Faded Magic 2
----------------------------------

KeithZ - Yomi
Samhain - Fomoria
shard - Lanka
Valerius - TNN

[KeithZ]

Shinuyama, please.
Can't wait to summon some dragons or Tartarian monsters.:)

PS: Sorry for the staling of the latest turn in Nation2, just forgot it:doh:, I'm almost dead but will keep playing to the end.

[KeithZ]

After some thoughts, I want swithch to Pythium.

[Valerius]

After some thoughts, I want swithch to Pythium.

Welcome! Pythium should be very strong. The battlefield is safer for communions and you even get the harbinger as thug summon.

Can't wait to summon some dragons or Tartarian monsters.:)

I hope everyone feels the same and the various monster summons get used and people don't just stick to thug summons with full slots. :)

The monstrum has always been my favorite tart but of course he can't compete with the other tarts that have full (or almost full) slots and more powerful magic. He may actually be too strong - those two misc slots will allow him to use a lot of boosters and with his built-in magic combined with some items he could also become a very strong thug. We'll see how it goes.

As far as the dragon goes, I really don't like OP things so didn't want to make them too strong (at the last minute I reduced MR from 22 to 20 because I was concerned about this). But if they don't get used then obviously I won't have made them good enough. ;)

PS: Sorry for the staling of the latest turn in Nation2, just forgot it:doh:, I'm almost dead but will keep playing to the end.

Oh, no problem. I wasn't around near hosting and didn't even realize you had staled (haven't even looked at my turn yet). Thanks for playing it out to the end! :)

[ghoul31]

agartha

[Valerius]

Welcome!

I was running a test game and realized of all things I forget to remove gem gens. Actually not too big deal but I'll go ahead and remove them since I also realized I forgot to increase the cost on leprosy from 8 to 15 gems and make it MR negates easily (same reasoning as for bane venom charms) so I'll need to upload a revised version anyway. But I'll wait a bit in case anything else pops up.

Edit: Also, darkness (not the Agarthan version - the regular one) should have a D5 casting requirement so that will be fixed as well (it does already cost 5 gems, though, as intended).

[Ragnarok-X]

Im in as Arco

[Valerius]

Welcome!

We still need a fifth person in any case but I plan on leaving recruitment open for a few more days. These experimental games don't have a large audience and some people may only check the forums occasionally.

Btw, the game is no diplo but discussion on the summons and settings during the game is ok. So feel free to say the fire dragon is a waste of gems and nobody would summon one instead of getting a zmey. ;) Though in the dragon's defense it is the only summon that guarantees you fire access - hidden in sand and monstrums have a chance but no guarantee. The frost and forest dragons I'm not as certain about (especially because there's a lot of other good uses for those gem types, especially N). I suppose forest has a niche in fighting C'tis if nothing else but I'm not sure being amphibious is enough of a selling point on the frost dragon (and unlike fire there's other summons with guaranteed W access).

[Ragnarok-X]

No changes for Arco ?
If you want, i can switch to a nation with changes for testing purposes.

[Valerius]

No, feel free to play whichever nation you prefer. Thanks for offering, though! :)

Ghoul played Arco in Nations but that turned out to be a difficult position since he was the only astral nation in the game. No indies (including removal of magic sites that allow mage recruitment) meant that it would be hard to protect against Arco's risk free mindhunts and the Assimilation mod, that allows recruitment of some units from a conquered opponent's cap, meant that Arco's cap was a huge prize since it allowed recruitment of mystics. So basically Arco ended up being a huge target. But here we have normal indie and magic site settings so I don't see Arco being a target more than anyone else (and we've already got more S nations signed up than in the Nations game).

[Samhain]

Ulm, please.

[shard]

I am winding down(ie getting stuffed) in a couple of games so I should be able to make this one. Will confirm soon and choose from whatever nations are left and/or is recommended

[Valerius]

Welcome to both of you! Samhain, nice to see another Nations player in the game. Shard, I hope you can make it as well - I'll mark you down as tentative.

Ragnarok-X and shard you both volunteered to try recommended nations. I mainly want everyone to play the nation they want but I will admit to some curiosity about Ulm, just chosen by Samhain, and Jotun. Ulm because they are so strong in the current CBM and at the same time performed well in previous games even though they were weaker and Jotun because this is the first time they've been allowed in and I'm curious as to how powerful they will be. But like I said, please don't feel pushed to play a certain nation.

[Ragnarok-X]

Ok, im in as Jotun. I offered it ;)

[Samhain]

I thought Ulm was considered one of the weaker nations of MA. If they are one of the more powerful options, that will kind of suck if/when I go down in flames in the first 20 turns or so. Is there a better choice of nation that is both not too micro-managey as well as weak enough to provide a good excuse for poor performance? I generally just play EA.

[tratorix]

In as T'ien Chi.

[Valerius]

Ok, im in as Jotun. I offered it ;)

Ok, I've switched you to the giants. Thanks for giving them a try! :)


I thought Ulm was considered one of the weaker nations of MA. If they are one of the more powerful options, that will kind of suck if/when I go down in flames in the first 20 turns or so. Is there a better choice of nation that is both not too micro-managey as well as weak enough to provide a good excuse for poor performance? I generally just play EA.

Under CBM 1.6, which we used in the previous game, it certainly was considered a weak nation but under 1.92 it's a different story. But I have nerfed them heavily and when you consider the presence of nations like Pythium, Jotun and Eriu (Eriu has a very strong midgame and fades late game - but here there is no traditional late game) I wouldn't at all say that Ulm stands out as stronger than the others.

As far as going down in flames in the first 20 turns, well there's no shame in that as even with strong nations luck can turn against you and you get dogpiled, etc.

In terms of low micro, I guess Ulm wouldn't be too bad from that perspective since at least they aren't into blood. And combat scripting shouldn't be too complicated since you'll be focused on buffing troops and pounding opponents with evo magic. But in the end if you do well you'll have to manage an increasing number of units and have to deal with an increasing amount of micro (this is a low magic game but unfortunately the micro won't be any better than a normal game).


In as T'ien Chi.

Welcome! I'll leave recruitment open until we hear from shard; perhaps we'll end up with a full complement of 8 players.

[Samhain]

Ok. I think I'll keep Ulm then. I already have a pretender chosen for Ulm with an RP back story. Man looked like another good choice for the same type of game play. I may try them next time.

My last game was with EA Abysia. That was nuts with micro-management. I swore if I ever played them again I would do so with little or no use of blood. That seemed less of a viable option with MA Abysia though.

The late game micro-managment of thug summoning and/or equipping is something I can usually deal in the rare situation that I make it that long.

[Valerius]

Ok. I think I'll keep Ulm then. I already have a pretender chosen for Ulm with an RP back story.

Nice! RP and in-character stuff is always fun. :)


Man looked like another good choice for the same type of game play. I may try them next time.

Olm did very well with Man last time (including some nice in-character posts) and, like Ulm, the 1.6 version was weaker than the current version of the nation.

Btw, how did you like Eriu? I know buzzsaw took over your position so you didn't get a chance to fully explore them, but they are actually also pretty good from a micro perspective (like you say equipping thugs and sending them out isn't bad). They are also another nation much stronger under the current CBM.


My last game was with EA Abysia. That was nuts with micro-management. I swore if I ever played them again I would do so with little or no use of blood. That seemed less of a viable option with MA Abysia though.

Definitely; playing MA Aby without use of those awesome warlocks would be a travesty. :p

[Samhain]

I'll try to post the bit of backstory by the time we start. I don't plan on doing any testing anyway, so I'll have the time. I tend to find testing does me more harm than good. I always get easy indies and awesome unexpected events then have the opposite luck when the real game starts. Since getting a taste of multiplayer, I no longer have any interest in single player regardless.

Once we get going, I can't make any promises about story updates, at least not before the final conclusion.

As for Eriu, along with its early age cousin and Last of the Tuatha in Dom2, there is probably no nation that I've played more. Though, I haven't played them otherwise in any forum game, just once I think in one of those dom3minions fast turn games where I got smeared. Pretty much all of that experience with them has been in single player.

I didn't worry much about strategy when I played single player and many of my games ended with the last dozen or so Sidhe Champion heroes marching off together for their final, tragic battle.

As you might guess from the name, I am kind of fond of Irish mythology. For the same reason, I've probably played Fomoria in more multi-player games than any other nation.

As for the Nations game, I was happy to let Buzzsaw keep my position as I've been trying to get him back into playing. We used to play with a couple of other co-workers. Since our desks are about five feet from each other, he let me see many of his turns so I could sort of keep playing vicariously through him. It was actually a lot of fun.

[Valerius]

I'll try to post the bit of backstory by the time we start... Once we get going, I can't make any promises about story updates, at least not before the final conclusion.

As much as I like in-character posts since this is a no-diplo game it would probably be better to have a starting in-character post and then wait until the end anyway.


I always get easy indies and awesome unexpected events then have the opposite luck when the real game starts.

Lol. I find that happens with my pretender builds. Literally every time I take rainbow that, combined with my national mages, can forge/summon anything I'd want, I find indie mages that could have done most of what I wanted my pretender to do. When I just go with scales/bless and limited diversity I don't find any good indie mages.


As for Eriu, along with its early age cousin and Last of the Tuatha in Dom2, there is probably no nation that I've played more.

You know, I never tried the LoT theme in Dom2 (only played SP in those days but, like you, now only play MP). Did they have Tuatha and/or Sidhe Lords with the same paths as now? Not that I would have thugged them out anyway as in those days I was troop focused and mainly went with something like F9W9 Vans or played Aby and spammed soul contracts.


As you might guess from the name, I am kind of fond of Irish mythology. For the same reason, I've probably played Fomoria in more multi-player games than any other nation.

Yes, I kind of figured that from the name and wanting to play Eriu in Nations. :) I don't know much about Irish mythology but I like the theme of the nations. Not as much as the theme of the heims but TNN/Eriu is pretty much a perfect fit for my preferred style of play so these days I play them more than Van. Giant nations are not my thing so I've never played Fomoria and only played Jotun once.


As for the Nations game, I was happy to let Buzzsaw keep my position as I've been trying to get him back into playing. We used to play with a couple of other co-workers. Since our desks are about five feet from each other, he let me see many of his turns so I could sort of keep playing vicariously through him. It was actually a lot of fun.

I got the impression he had a lot of fun with that game which of course I was glad about as my main goal when admining a game is that people enjoy themselves. Though I'm afraid I wasn't the most useful ally against Ulm and Man since I never recovered from losing my army outside the gates of Arco.

[Samhain]

I hadn't thought of the violation of the diplomacy part of RP posts. I think I'll just hold off then until the end and submit it as sort of an RP-AAR. That way too I don't have to worry about how much of my build is revealed in the story either.

As for Last of the Tuatha in Dom2, my recollection is that it is the spitting image of Tir Na N'Og in the early age of Dom3. I definitely remember Sidhe Champions, Sidhe Lords, and Ri with almost if not absolutely identical paths.

I wasn't too focused on that part of the game then, though. I tended to issue magical items based on merit for instance. One item per yellow star and a full suit for a red star. Other items issued based on valor in combat, that sort of thing. And, I never scripted at all until I played MP.

And, Buzzsaw definitely had fun in the Nations game. I thought I had a pretty good shot of getting him to join this game though at the cost of not being able to work on my turn during lunch hours. Unfortunately, he decided just this week he was taking a break from all kinds of gaming for a bit to get some things done. Perhaps he'll be in for the next one.

[shard]

Mmmm any chance I can play MA Jomon (Shatner's/Legowarrior's mod)?

If there are balance issues then I will go for Shinuyama. I am feeling oriental today...

[Valerius]

I hadn't thought of the violation of the diplomacy part of RP posts. I think I'll just hold off then until the end and submit it as sort of an RP-AAR. That way too I don't have to worry about how much of my build is revealed in the story either.

Ok, that makes sense. Looking forward to it. :)

I wasn't too focused on that part of the game then, though. I tended to issue magical items based on merit for instance. One item per yellow star and a full suit for a red star. Other items issued based on valor in combat, that sort of thing. And, I never scripted at all until I played MP.

Wow, your heroes had to work hard for their equipment. As far as the scripting goes, well, I guess that's one way to equalize things with AI. ;) Though it would make me sad to have a nice hero with full gear and have the AI suicide him because it just decides to cast spells rather than engage in melee.

And, Buzzsaw definitely had fun in the Nations game. I thought I had a pretty good shot of getting him to join this game though at the cost of not being able to work on my turn during lunch hours. Unfortunately, he decided just this week he was taking a break from all kinds of gaming for a bit to get some things done. Perhaps he'll be in for the next one.

Lol, I was hoping you might get him to join. But maybe we'll catch him next time around.


Mmmm any chance I can play MA Jomon (Shatner's/Legowarrior's mod)?

If there are balance issues then I will go for Shinuyama. I am feeling oriental today...

Welcome! I'd like to stick to base game nations so I'll sign you up for Shin.


I'll post an updated mod soon. In addition to removing gem gens and making darkness require D5 I'm making one significant change and removing the MR negates from Iron Bane (it will now require E5 and 5 gems). I was thinking about pretender builds and it occurred to me that high MR troops combined with an S bless or antimagic could basically become immune to iron bane. That means it would go from a spell that had the drawback of also harming your own troops to one that would largely only effect the enemy. That's definitely not what I was aiming for so I'm going back to my original plan of just making it more difficult and much more expensive to cast (making it MR negates was a last minute addition before I posted the mod and even then I wasn't sure it was a good idea).


One last thing: I'm thinking of switching my nation from Eriu to Caelum. I'd really like to use the various monster and thug summons but don't really trust myself not to keep using the glamoured thugs I like so much if I have them available. :p Playing Caelum will force me to use them as they don't have recruitable thugs. And it seems like there could be a nice synergy between flying monstrums and dragons and Caelian units. I'll miss the sleath aspect of Eriu but I also like mobility and Caelum has tons of that. I'll decide for sure by the time I post the updated mod.

[Ragnarok-X]

You should hurry up. The longer this is in stasis, the more players will leave.

[Valerius]

Done! Everyone please download the new mod file from the first post. The filename is the same so you can just replace the old one. You'll know you have the new one when you "v2" at the end of the name when looking at the list of mods in-game.

The game will be setup on the server shortly. Final player count is 7, so with a 12-15 prov/player average we're looking for a map of around 90 provinces. A little water would be nice to break up the terrain and provide a place to summon things like krakens but we don't want too much. I'll start looking around, suggestions also welcome.

[Valerius]

Oh, and I will be giving Caelum a try. Never played them before so this should be interesting (i.e. likely a disaster ;)).

[Valerius]

Game is ready for pretenders. Please remember you only need the game mod active when creating your pretender since it includes CBM.

[Valerius]

CORRECTION: Of course right after I uploaded the mod to the server I realized I forgot to make the changes to leprosy. I'll have to upload it again but that means I'll also need to change the file name. Please download FadedMagic3 from the first post and when looking in your list of mods you'll see "v3" at the end of the name of the version of the mod you'll want active when creating your pretender.

[Valerius]

A couple of map options:

Realm of Many Tomatoes (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=44379)

The Land of Ethereal Squirrels (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=44084)

There is a version of Ethereal Squirrels on the server that has 7 fixed starts. I don't know where those starts are placed but I figure they're almost certainly better than what the game would assign.

But I'm kind of curious to try Tomatoes since I've never played on this map before. If we went with this one I'd remove the outside ring of water provinces. We could either gamble on random start locations or decide on fixed start locations with the drawback that we'd know where all the caps were located.

[KeithZ]

Just a quick question, I think we still have the unique artifacts though magic is limited to 6, right?

I'm ok with both the maps (I don't have much MP experience, never played either of them), you can just decide.

[Valerius]

No, unique artifacts have been removed. I accidentally forgot to remove gem gens from the first version of the mod but they are now gone. Maybe next time I'll include some of the lower power items just for fun - but definitely not the most powerful items like the gate stone.

I'm glad you brought that up, though, since you may not have been the only one planning on forging unique items.

I'm also fine with both maps. If it seems like there's no preference for one over the other I'll just pick one.

[Ragnarok-X]

Im fine with either map, anyway. Though the first one with fixed, preset positions seems better in general to me.

[Samhain]

Both maps look good to me. No preference.

[Valerius]

Ok, I think I'll go with Ethereal Squirrels. The start locations are almost certainly better than what the AI would assign. The only risk is that it doesn't specify that all the start locations are land. So if one of the starts was a water start then the game would have to assign an additional land start location. Which probably still leaves us better off than we would be with the AI assigning all start locations. ;) Also, further up on the map list is another version of the map that specifies 7 land starts so I'm hoping this is an updated version of that map that just fixes some province connections.

[tratorix]

I'm switching to Arco since I remembered how much I hate MA Tien Chi.

[Valerius]

Well, that's a pretty good reason not to play them. ;) Nation list updated.

I've now got the correct map selected and set the game to start when all pretenders are in.

Still trying things out myself - first time playing Caelum and some of the pretenders they have available I've never checked out before.

[Valerius]

Thanks to everyone who already sent in their pretenders. It was a holiday weekend in the US and I didn't spend much time on Dominions the past few days but I'll have my pretender in soon. How about we try to have all pretenders in by tomorrow so we can get things started?

[Ragnarok-X]

How can the first turn take 2 days ?

[Ragnarok-X]

Beginning Friday morning (12 hours from now) will be on a weekend vacation and will return sunday evening.
A such, i would ask to put the game on manual turn resolve until im back.

[Valerius]

No problem; I will postpone hosting to make sure you don't stale.

[Valerius]

Hosting has been postponed until Monday.

[Ragnarok-X]

Im back and did the turn etc.
Thanks for your patience everyone.

[Valerius]

Tratorix needs some more time for this turn so hosting has been postponed 24 hours.

[Valerius]

We've reached turn 20 so the hosting interval has been changed to 48 hours.

[Valerius]

I was wondering about Jotun's odd attempt to break siege on their cap and see the explanation is they went AI. Just a reminder to please fight it out until the end. Thanks.

[Samhain]

I figured that out for the same reason. That was really disappointing. He had Alt 3. With all those Skratti and a couple of Gygja he could have handed out some gear to the Skratti (even bane and ice blades) and buffed them either using Gygja as for a reverse Sabbath or as Body Etheralizers and really given me a fight. Instead I got spammed with slime.

I don't understand it. I actually find spitefully fighting to the bitter end my favorite part of the game. It is nearly as fulfilling as winning (if not more so) and far more accessible situation.

[Valerius]

I agree with you, though I know a lot of people don't find last stands much fun. But it's particularly disappointing because I specifically asked people to fight it out to the end.

[Ragnarok-X]

I made a bad mistake. The turn before going AI, i had my researchers researching but my "army" on patrol. As such, my army was killed and the 15 mages alone couldnt do **** without a wall to back them up, regardless of skinshifting or using cold evocations.
In addition, i was lacking gear (no astral). I really do play to the end, which i did in this case i believe. In this particular game, i thinki had a rather bad placement w/ my capitol but i of course made plenty of mistakes.

I hope you guys do well.

[Hrum]

The turn before going AI, i had
...
I really do play to the end, which i did in this case i believe.

It seems to me that those two statements contradict each other.

The metagame aspect probably isn't the most important, but in case you weren't aware there are players who pay attention to details like which opponents are more likely to go AI and which aren't - the idea being that attacking someone likely to go AI is a surer path to victory for them. So setting yourself AI may make you more likely to be a target for early rushes in future games. Conversely, if you were to get a reputation for being an Outlaw Josey Wales* style player (and I know of at least one guy who thinks this way) that could potentially serve as a deterrent. All things being equal, a player evaluating which neighbor to attack in a close early game may opt for the easier target (the guy who goes AI).

*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yid-CW-O9Qw

Setting the metagame aspect of things aside though, a more important thing to consider is the other players in your game. You're done playing, and that's OK, but the other players aren't done. The wishes of the players remaining in the game should take precedence over your own with regards to your nation being AI vs being taken over by a sub. It doesn't matter if in your opinion the fight is over - if you're leaving the game your opinion about that is irrelevant. Let the admin and the other players decide.

And especially if you're in a game where the admin said something like:



Player Conduct

...I only ask that you don't set yourself AI.


If the admin goes out of his way to ask everyone not to go AI right from the beginning, then perhaps you shouldn't go AI. You knew that was what was expected when you joined the game didn't you?

[Ragnarok-X]

what the hell. Do you realize i did play until the last possible turn ? The last 4 turns i was basicly opening up the turn, rallying troops and send the turn. There was nothing i could with 150 ulms to the left, 150x2 pythium to the left and caelum to the top.

Unless im wrong, this game was a test game for the faded magic mod. a TEST game. I did test it until the last possible turn. Scripting the siege would have changed NOTHING, not with the research i had against 150 prot 20 ulm guys. Holy mow.

[Valerius]

Ragnarok-X, it was a test game in the sense that I changed a lot of settings and I can't vouch for this all being balanced. But it was a real game in that I very much expect people to play to win and to fight to the end. Hrum summed it up well. Yes, I understand that you basically had no chance and that if Ulm didn't kill you then Pythium would have. But what I was asking was that we all play to the last turn, inflicting as much damage as we can. I thought I had made this clear in the game description but I'll try to state it more clearly next time.

[Ragnarok-X]

Tell you what. Tell Ulm to suicide 30 of his high-res troops into pythiums army and be in awe, for balance is finally restored.
In all honesty, these 15 skratti and 2 gwyags would have done nothing with evo 2. Best think would have been self-buff quickness and shapeshift and melee in.

[shard]

In the middle of a business trip - I'd like to request a 6hr extension please!

[Valerius]

Good timing, I was just checking the forums. :) I'll add 12 hours to play it safe.

[Valerius]

Difficult turn - I really wasn't sure what action to take. We'll see how things turn out.

And I expect soon enough we'll see which summons people focus on. I am of course very interested to see how this develops.

Currently I find these low magic games more fun than normal games with late game magic. I think for the next one I'll try running one in the EA for the first time and I've begun working on the changes for that setting. Given the lack of humanoid SCs I expect having recruitable SCs will be an even bigger advantage than normal but given the number of EA nations that have such units combined with a smaller game there should be enough SC nations to go around if that's what people prefer. I can't possibly go two games in a row without a glamour nation so I'll go with TNN. ;) If any of you would like to play feel free to choose a nation already. The game won't begin for a few weeks yet and will, like this game, have a relaxed hosting schedule and make accommodations for vacations if needed.

Btw, I'm enjoying Caelum so far. In test games I found the old age on the mages annoying but manageable. With the exception of winter of year two, in which an absurd number of my mages got afflictions, it hasn't been too bad to deal with. And of course the mobility that flight provides is very nice.

[Valerius]

I also think next game I'll go with easy research, to get the action started more quickly. Take an awake rainbow pretender and you can have your expansion parties tossing around lightning bolts and fireballs. :p

[Valerius]

I'm going to need some more time for this turn so I've postponed hosting by 24 hours.

[shard]

Actually it would be great if I could have a further 12 hours as I have restricted (i.e. the family...) access to my DOM computer till get home (3day weekend here)


I am all for another game thats no/limited diplo!
Will probably try Lanka (not definite)

[Valerius]

Actually it would be great if I could have a further 12 hours as I have restricted (i.e. the family...) access to my DOM computer till get home (3day weekend here)

Sure, 12 hours has been added.


I am all for another game thats no/limited diplo!

Right, I forgot to mention that: it will definitely be no diplo. I'm sure at some point I'll play another game with diplo but right now I find I don't really have the time/patience for it.


Will probably try Lanka (not definite)

Glad to have you on board for the next game! I'll reserve Lanka for you but of course feel free to switch nations if you want. I'll try to get a first draft of the mod with change log posted this week. Things are of course getting very busy in this game and I'll make changes depending on the feedback we get here but I was planning on similar settings, including having the dragon summons.

[shard]

Sorry for the tardiness, will be submitting the turn in soon

[Valerius]

No problem - I'm sure you've got the most complicated situation to deal with of all of us.

Since there's just an hour until hosting I'll add some time to the clock to make sure you don't stale.

[shard]

The best laid plans of mice and men.... bleghhh


Just a heads up that I'll be travelling again this week til next so I might need some more liberal extensions ><

[Valerius]

The best laid plans of mice and men.... bleghhh

With no diplo games, it's always a guessing game how things will turn out. ;)

So, my unofficial goal this game has become to try out as many different thug/monster summons as possible. It's funny, while I've fought plenty of EDM summons since I play thug nations so often I think this is actually the first time I've used shishis and rocs myself. I like them and of course monstrums are quite fun for the completely random magic paths.

Just a heads up that I'll be travelling again this week til next so I might need some more liberal extensions ><

No problem. Actually, I may as well switch to 72 hour hosting one turn earlier than planned.

[Samhain]

Sorry, but I still have a lot of work to do on this turn and just found that I have to travel out of town tonight. Could I get 48 hours added to the clock, please?

[Valerius]

Sure, hosting has been postponed by 48 hours.

I also wanted to mention to everyone that I haven't forgotten at all about trying out these low magic settings in an EA game. I did get a bit sidetracked by joining another experimental game recently but I mainly wanted to give this one some time develop so we could incorporate the feedback into the next game. And yes, I know that thus far only shard has expressed an interest in the next game but there's no harm in advertising it. :)

[KeithZ]

I pretty like the low magic idea, there is not much pressure on the research race and you can send plenty of your mages into the front line much earlier. That's fun.

I would be happy to join your new game.

[Valerius]

I pretty like the low magic idea, there is not much pressure on the research race and you can send plenty of your mages into the front line much earlier. That's fun.

I agree and I think the same thing applies to gem usage. I tend to be a gem hoarder, saving them up for globals. Here there's no point in that and once you've completed your key research you're best off summoning and forging so you can increase your combat strength and get more territory.

And I plan on easy research next game so we'll get to the action even faster. :)


I would be happy to join your new game.

Great! Feel free to already choose a nation if you'd like (you can of course change it later if you change your mind). So far I'm going with TNN (surprise, surprise ;)) and shard is going with Lanka. I'm really liking Caelum and am tempted to try to them again but at least on paper I like MA Caelum better than EA. Eagle Kings make nice thugs but playing as much TNN/Eriu as I do I'm hard to impress on that front and to me recruit everywhere High Seraphs win out over cap only Eagle Kings.



I still have to finish going through EA nations in order to make changes to fit the game settings. I'll be using the same guidelines as here: adjusting prices on national blood summons along the same lines as I did here and making other changes to nations to fit the game settings.

I'm pretty happy with the monster summons in terms of utility but I'd appreciate feedback on prices. How do you all feel about the prices of monsters vs. the price of full slot thug options like the wendigo and ettin?

I also want to discuss a couple of EDM summons and some changes I had in mind for them.

First off, the wendigo. I like these guys, both in their normal SC form and in the thug role they have here. But because they take time to develop and I had other research priorities I haven't summoned any this game. But I've seen them around so I know they've seen action. For the next game I was planning on changing their magic from W3D3 to W2D2 and having them autocast soul vortex. They would start at size 2, move to size 3 the next turn and their final size 4 the following turn.

My idea was to focus them on being thugs rather than spellcasters. Reducing their magic to W2D2 would promote the kokythiad as the best way to reach D5 for monstrum summoning. Kokythiads and a variety of other summons would also be better ways to get high level W magic. When it comes to thugging the key D buff that is of use to them is soul vortex and this would give them access to that while not making them very good spellcasters. W2 is also enough for W based combat buffs. Having soul vortex autocast can be a bit of a drawback since there might be some situations where you don't want it; OTOH you get to cast it without incurring fatigue which has advantages. The quicker development I think just makes sense - in an easy research game I think the wendigo needs to be ready to go more quickly.

Just to be clear: I'm not intending this as a nerf to the wendigo but purely to promote it as a thug and other units as better WD spellcasters. But as I mentioned, I haven't had a chance to use them in this game and if you all feel it's a nerf let me know (but the one thing I think we definitely should go for is the quicker development time).

Then there's zmey. To review, I made the following zmey-focused changes for this game: prot 22 --> 20, misc slots 3 --> 2, and (the big one IMO) lychantropos' amulet 5 --> 10 N gems. These nerfs seem pretty light and I figured additional nerfs would likely be necessary. My plan was to reduce prot 2 more points, to 18, continuing with the line of thought that they zmey could dish out a lot of damage but was also vulnerable itself. There's plenty of other changes we could also make if needed (lower attack rating, map move 2, lower HP on each form, etc). Only thing ... I haven't seen a single zmey around. I certainly don't think the nerfs in this game were crippling to them so I assume it's just that people had other priorities. But this is a summon whose changes will depend on the feedback we get from this game.

[Samhain]

Thanks for you patience everyone. I should get my turn in tonight.

I really like the idea of trying this format in EA. It is hard to commit at the moment as its all I can do right now to keep up with the two games I am in. But, I would be very interested in playing Fomoria. It would be a great chance to try a new way to play them. And, without Fog Warriors or Dance of the Morrigans, it would be interesting. They may still need a bit more nerfing though as other nations may be affected much more. I don't know the game well enough to make those kind of judgements.

I agree with both the Wendigo and Zmey changes. Zmey's are just too overpowered for their cost in my opinion. And, the game doesn't need another high level DW mage. But, the Wendigo does make a colorful addition to the thug pantheon.

[Valerius]

Thanks for you patience everyone. I should get my turn in tonight.

No problem at all - you and ghoul are so quick getting your turns in I was a little concerned you'd get frustrated at the leisurely pace. In any case, you're certainly entitled to a postponement when needed (and you still got your turn in before shard and I, who win the slacker prizes for this game ;) ).


I really like the idea of trying this format in EA. It is hard to commit at the moment as its all I can do right now to keep up with the two games I am in. But, I would be very interested in playing Fomoria. It would be a great chance to try a new way to play them. And, without Fog Warriors or Dance of the Morrigans, it would be interesting. They may still need a bit more nerfing though as other nations may be affected much more. I don't know the game well enough to make those kind of judgements.

Glad to hear you're interested! With regard to Fomoria, as you noted Dance of the Morrigans will be out since it is too high a level but other than that the nation seems fine to me and I don't plan on any nation-specific nerfs for them.

In terms of balance decisions, I am of course using my best judgement as to game balance but there's no question that some of it is based on my personal likes/dislikes. For instance, I am of the opinion that generally speaking blood magic is underpriced and that's behind a lot of my changes in this area. That may be a minority viewpoint but I'm not he only one who feels that way. But my dislike of immortal units, especially blood based ones, is particular to me (as far as I know anyway) and removing vampires altogether isn't a choice many people would likely have made.

Aside from blood nerfs, the kind of thing that would catch my attention is something like Hinnom's Acha being able to heal. In a game where there's no GoH or chalice I have no intention of giving Hinnom risk-free mind hunts. Arco can have them - but Hinnom, no.

As regards timing, the next game will also have a relaxed pace and I view when we start in the same light. I'm glad we'll have several players from this game returning and if holding off on the start time until we get a bit further in this one helps in getting everyone on board I'm inclined to do that. And of course that will also give us better feedback for the next game.

I'll add a tentative roster for the next game to the bottom of the first post in the thread.

[Samhain]

Actually, considering my current position in this game I'll likely be ready for the next game at least as soon as everyone else is. Anyway, one of the things I happen to like about Fomoria is that it is decidedly low maintenance.

And, don't worry about the pace on my account. I like to get turns in quickly. But, my first submission is often a rough draft, something to submit in case an unexpected event prevents me from sending in a thoroughly vetted one. And, even once I am finished with a turn, I don't generally lack things to do while waiting for the next one.

On the other hand, I do get a bit irritated when I have to wait 48 hours for nearly every turn and we aren't even at turn 12 yet, but only because the player or players that set such a pace often tend to chronically stale or just plain go AWOL later. As long as that doesn't prove to be the case, I am content.

[KeithZ]

Count me in as Yomi in the next game please.

[Valerius]

I'm not sure if any of you noticed, but Mists of Deception has been removed from the spell list from this game but I didn't mention it in my game summary. I didn't mention because I'd completely forgotten about it as I copied and pasted the spell changes from one mod to another. :p

This goes back to the Threefort game when several players thought it would be OP considering the game settings (Threefort also had some different settings than this game). So my question is, do you want to keep this spell banned or try letting it in? Though I guess we're a bit of a biased audience since so far we have three air nations and a fourth that has good A access through summons. ;)

If we do ban it then I'll need opinions regarding TNN's Faerie Mists. Faerie Mists is based on the Howl spell only instead of summoning wolves it summons phantasmal sidhe warriors/lords, etc. Summons are generated for between 6-20 turns depending on the type of phantasm. MoD is different in that it keeps summoning phantasms through the entire course of the battle. According to the wiki it summons 1 * the level of the caster summons per turn.

I have to admit I really like Faerie Mists. Just like Howl it can mess up an opponent's scripting but I also just get a kick out of seeing those ghostly national units running around. :)

But if there's objections to TNN having Faerie Mists while MoD is removed, no problem we'll remove it as well.

[Valerius]

So, I've been quite eager to start this game and have known for a while the pretender build I wanted to try. What I wasn't as eager to do was actually put the mod together. :p

But I finally forced myself to do so and I'm about to start a new thread to open recruitment (of course everyone who has already signed up has their nations reserved).

Most of the settings are the same as this game.

Quick summary of changes:

* Zmey drops 2 more points to prot 18. Also made it map move 2 which I think will open up long range raiding to thugs with flying boots or the various monsters.

* Wendigo is now W2D2 fixed magic paths, starts at size 2/18 HP, then size 3/50 HP, and next turn finishes at size 4/71 HP. Also autocasts soul vortex.

* Iron Dragon - I decided I would try to make it useful. I could have just lowered the price but instead kept it at 25 E gems and made it a commander and added a claw attack.

Those are the highlights. Also some spell pricing adjustments and various nation changes (most significantly no darkness on PD for Agartha, no healing for Hinnom).

Please download the mod from the new thread and give it a try. And remember to test it with easy research!

[Valerius]

Thanks for fighting it out to the end, shard. Normally I would have been more cautious with that last fort but I obviously got distracted by new developments last turn and figured it was worth the risk to bring our war to a close.

I will remember two things in particular about this war:

Forts. Everywhere. Unending sieges. Caelum is good at sieges, but given limited resources it still took me a couple of turns on average to breach the walls of those high defense forts and then another to storm, all of which added up.

Bakemono Sorcerers. Every single scouting report seemed to be "there's about 20 units in the province, mainly bakemono sorcerers." WTF, those guys are 300 gold/each. How is he affording that on top of all those fort costs? Of course I know the answer: ultrascales. Still, it was really an insane number of mages.

[shard]

GG;

Im still in the middle of travelling and my poor netbook couldnt handle the graphics of that final battle - mind giving me a pm on what happened there i.e how much of a defense I actually managed to put up?

Ultrascales worked up to a point but I was hoping to find some good indy mages, especially air/astral but that just didn't happen. In the end I gambled on conquest to get my magical diversity and lost out :D
In hindsight a light bless for all those sorcerers might have been viable - if i could find a way to efficiently bless.

Will have more to say once its all done and dusted!

Good luck on the rest of the game!

[Valerius]

Im still in the middle of travelling and my poor netbook couldnt handle the graphics of that final battle - mind giving me a pm on what happened there i.e how much of a defense I actually managed to put up?

Sure, I'll PM you now.


Ultrascales worked up to a point but I was hoping to find some good indy mages, especially air/astral but that just didn't happen. In the end I gambled on conquest to get my magical diversity and lost out :D

I did notice that lack and was quite surprised when a while back you had some air spells scripted in one of our battles - I always forget about Shin's national summons with A magic.

I've always found that Murphy's law applies to magic diversity. Almost without exception when I take a rainbow pretender I end up finding (with my national mages, not my site searching pretender) great indie mages that, in combination with my national mages, could do almost everything I had in mind for the rainbow. When I take a bless or ultrascales pretender I don't find any top notch indies.

[Valerius]

I've been meaning to say that I'm really glad I finally moved on from CBM 1.6 with this low magic series of games. The EDM summons and the "monster" summons make the whole thing much more fun. And I really like monstrums as magic diversity but with limited slots.

Midgame fun all the way through. :) I'll be interested for everyone's feedback afterwards but I think the balance is pretty good.

[Valerius]

And so Ulm finally falls. Nice job, Samhain. You held out for a long time.

[KeithZ]

I was back from work very late today and just too tired for playing game... Valerius, could you please postpone the hosting by 24hr for this turn? Thanks!

[Valerius]

Sure, hosting has been postponed 24 hours.

[Valerius]

KeithZ needs another 24 hours so I've postponed hosting. He also requested switching to 96 hour hosting, which seems reasonable given the number of provinces he has to manage (and for all intents we're already on 96 hour hosting since I've typically been postponing 24 hours each turn anyway).

[ghoul31]

Well it looks like Valerius has stopped playing


So I'm just going to declare KeithZ the winner

[Valerius]

Apologies for the stale. I haven't stopped playing and will not stale this turn. Pythium is kicking my a** but that's another matter entirely.

[ghoul31]

Going AI, this game has been over for about 20 turns now

And these rules where SC's are cheap and super easy to cast is dumb

What the point of everyone having 100 monstrums and 100 frost dragons?

[Valerius]

I agree that Pythium has won. I think once it was down to three of us Agartha played kingmaker. Though if he'd attacked Pythium instead of me I'm still not sure that Agartha and Caelum together could have succeeded in taking down Pythium. Congrats KeithZ!

Thanks everyone for playing and apologies again for the recent stales.

[KeithZ]

Thanks everyone!

Thanks to Valerius for your mod. Although it became a little bit monotonous in the late game, I think I still like it. You don't need to think too much, just transfer all the resource into the summons and use them to fight. It's much more relaxed to play this one than a normal game, I was quite enjoying it. For MA, the balance is almost perfect, it may be a little advantage to have some national summons, but I think the best thugs are still the common ones, dragons, Zmey, monstrums, cheap and effective .