I Would Be Sovereign - Newbie-intermediate game 8/8 - WINNER IMMACULATE(Mictlan)

[Tiavals]

NOTE TO APPLICANT: June 30th
We have one slot left. This will be done in a first come first serve basis.
At the present, we have a shadow Chelms player who has not said a thing, so he will be booted out to make you space. So if you want to join this game, post away and choose your nation!
If no one applies, we will start on the 1st of July(perhaps 2nd).
You must post on this thread before you can be considered a player, hence why Chelms is being evicted if he doesn't say anything. Thus, post here and say which nation you want, then we will see about you sending it to llamaserver(as it's technically full at the moment).

--------


Hello everyone. Having been away from Dom3 for quite a long time, I decided to host a multiplayer game(we'll be using Llamaserver) for newbies and intermediate players. I'm not sure where my skill level is, but I would guess it's in the intermediate area. I will probably play to the best of my skill, but use a somewhat thematic use of units and such, so this may be a somewhat ruthless game in a sense, especially with Machiavellian diplomacy. ;)

Technically anyone is free to join, but I would prefer that people who join are fairly committed to it, not disappearing suddenly, and aren't some sort of super-players that will sweep the floor with everyone else.


Game name: I Would Be Sovereign(or IWBS for short)
Era: Late
Map: Parganos(unless someone disagrees)
Turns: Slow(48h) - Also using Quickhost(turns will be hosted earlier if everyone has sent their turns already)
Number of Players: 8
Mods: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.92 - Ettin Fix
Diplomacy: Machiavelli

Special rules:
Ermor and R'lyeh aren't allowed. (For a more "relaxed" game)
Score graphs off.
8 VPs to win, VPs in capital, 8 VPs scattered across map.

Players:
Tiavals - Bogarus
Lumix19 - Pythium
Jolly Roger - Patala
Immaculate - Mictlan
Archmage - Midgard
dojango - Utgard
Ragnarok-X - Ulm
Anaconda - C'Tis

NOTE:
Please send your pretender gods to pretenders@llamaserver.net
Make sure the CBM 1.92 - wild ettin fix mod is active when you design your pretender god.

The email subject file must be like this: IWouldBeSovereign

I think this is how you do it?
Any and all rules can be modified if people so want. Post and explain why you want something to be different and we'll discuss about it.

As for magic site frequency and all that, it'll be set to default unless someone disagrees.

If you have questions, I'll try to answer them.

[Lumix19]

Hey, I'm interested in joining as Pythium. As I'm completely new to MP I just have to make sure I join properly first. What is the game name?

[Tiavals]

Good to have you on board.

The game name is "IWouldBeSovereign" on Llamaserver. Be sure to make your pretender with the CBM 1.92 Ettin Fix Mod turned on, it has some effect on the pretenders.

[fungalreason]

I haven't played in quite some time, so this seems like a good one for me. I'll take Jomon

[Tiavals]

Great.

No giant nations yet, how rare. ;)

[Jolly Roger]

Hi Juhani.

I choose PATALA

Cheers, Klaus

[Tiavals]

Glad you could join us herr Doktor. :)

[Immaculate]

Mictlan

[Tiavals]

Not a person of many words, I see. Welcome regardless!

[Archmage]

Newbie with one total game under my belt. I'd like to play Midgard.

[dojango]

Great.

No giant nations yet, how rare. ;)

I'll fix that. Utgard, please.

[Ragnarok-X]

Im in as Ulm, thanks.

[Tiavals]

Welcome everyone!

If you need help with llamaserver, do tell!

[Jolly Roger]

Hi Juhani.

Maybe you should allow more players to join in.

Cheers, Klaus

[fungalreason]

Oops, I forgot I would need to update Dominions. Will upload my pretender later tonight

[Tiavals]

Hi Juhani.

Maybe you should allow more players to join in.

Cheers, Klaus

How many players do you propose we take in?

We would have to change the map too since Parganos is too small for more than 8. What do you suggest?

[Jolly Roger]

I´d suggest 12-16.

[Ragnarok-X]

16 is too much. 12 !

[Immaculate]

lets just go with 8.... thats what you advertised. i was looking forward to a smaller game. there is nothing stopping people from starting another game with more players if thats what they want to play.

no offense to anyone... but it was very clear what this game was and i see no reason to change things now.

[dojango]

lets just go with 8.... thats what you advertised. i was looking forward to a smaller game. there is nothing stopping people from starting another game with more players if thats what they want to play.

no offense to anyone... but it was very clear what this game was and i see no reason to change things now.

I agree, smaller games don't get bogged down nearly as much.

[Immaculate]

Thank you Dojango.

[Tiavals]

Sorry there Klaus, we'll go with 8 since that's what the majority seems to be asking!

Settings will be unchanged.

[Tiavals]

I hope everything is okay. Everyone sent their correct pretenders and such. I see that instead of Ulm, there's Chelms for example. Oh well, we'll just restart if something is wrong.

[Immaculate]

Sorry to be a hassle but i got started on the island in the south-western sea. Can we get a restart?

[Tiavals]

Pretty crazy that such a place is even possible as a starting location.

What're the thoughts of everyone else?

Anyone have a suggestion for a better map if this has problems with the starting locations?

On the other hand, aren't you Mictlan? You get those atlantis toad people who can go under the sea so it isn't THAT bad of a place for you, right?

[fungalreason]

Yeah we need to restart. There's a way to mark certain places as not valid start locations through modding, but I'm not sure exactly how. I would just try again with the same map. That one spot is the only one that would be problematic, I think

[Lumix19]

I'm don't mind restarting if you got such a bad starting position. How would it work?

[Immaculate]

its a horrible start position. Those toads require resources. I will NEVER get more resources at my cap (barring a weird event).

[Immaculate]

i like the map and this is the one and only time i've ever seen this happen.

You should be able to generate a restart from the admin tools under the game in the llamaserver menu i do believe.

[dojango]

i like the map and this is the one and only time i've ever seen this happen.

You should be able to generate a restart from the admin tools under the game in the llamaserver menu i do believe.

Didn't it also happen in Valhallas Heroes? Someone started on that island and we had to restart (second time worked fine, but there's still a non-zero chance someone could get stuck, I suppose).

[Immaculate]

thats right- we did have to restart. i had not opened my first start position so i had hardly noticed but that does seem to ring a bell.

We should re-upload a new map with a 'no start' tag on that island.

[Tiavals]

I've restarted it. Hopefully no one is on an island now.

[Jolly Roger]

Sorry, but the starting place for Patala means a big disadvantage, as I´m on province 85 with only 3 neighbouring provinces.
I´d suggest to use another map or fixed starting positions.

Cheers, Klaus

[fungalreason]

I hate to be overly vocal here, but that's ridiculous. There's a big disparity between a land nation stuck on an island with NO neighbors, and your situation.

If people are going to be that picky, at least do the legwork of finding or creating a map with the required parameters rather than expecting others to figure it out for you.

[Immaculate]

i'm not sure whats wrong with only 3 provinces as neighbors either. Can you explain the problem? You won't get enough resources?

[Jolly Roger]

Fungalreason,

that´s not an appropriate style to talk to me. Obviously I´ll suffer from a lack of resources from the beginning. That means a decisive disadvantage.

However, I really dislike to be treated like that.
If you want to play that style, count me out.

Cheers, Klaus

[Tiavals]

Well now, no need for arguments.

This is supposed to be a friendly enough game. This means one of two things.

Either:
a) We take our time in choosing the right map so everyone will have a start they're satisfied with
or
b) Since it's not totally competitive(being a newbie friendly game) people will accept inferior starting positions. I know for a fact that Klaus is a good enough player that he'd do well enough compared to a total newbie with 5 neigboring provinces.

[Ragnarok-X]

What is this fuss about Ulm and Chelms.
Im in as Ulm, but i did not receive an email that the game has started.
How ulm is entirely gone ?
I think we should create a NEW game (name) entirely, with a proper map.

[fungalreason]

Some other person must have sent in a pretender for man in your place. Don't do that, whomever you are!

I'm going to join or host a different game. This doesn't appear to be exactly what I was looking for. Good luck to you all!

[Tiavals]

Okay, it seems that things are a bit confusing here, so I'll completely restart the game, so that everyone has to send their pretenders again. So, the mysterious Man pretender should post here if he wants to join, in case fungalreason decides to leave.

As for the map, does anyone have a suggestion for a map that's balanced enough for our purposes?

Sorry for the delays people.

[Jolly Roger]

How about World of Warhammer Vanilla or one of the maps the other running campaigns use ?

Cheers, Klaus

[Immaculate]

saddies... i hope this pulls through.

I don't understand the point of view of the patala player. If he can explain further, i would be much indebted.

I should mention that my one and only win was on this map with Patala and i was resource constrained. It meant i launched less Naga warriors and more monkeys (and elephants)...



Personally i love this map. It forces a new type of game-play because there are so many non-'empty' terrains. Everything is forest or swamp or mountain. It makes the 'survival' trait usable and important. it also reduces the income of your empire slightly, forcing a more lean and mean approach to, well, everything. In my Patala game i actually got to use the swamp survival trait to outmaneuver a mixed C'tis army that didn't (all) have swamp survival and that was pretty fun.

[Immaculate]

Okay, it seems that things are a bit confusing here, so I'll completely restart the game, so that everyone has to send their pretenders again. So, the mysterious Man pretender should post here if he wants to join, in case fungalreason decides to leave.

As for the map, does anyone have a suggestion for a map that's balanced enough for our purposes?

Sorry for the delays people.

Send him an e-mail via the llamaserver with a link to the forum in case he is not aware of this system.

i.

[Valerius]

I notice you're using Parganos. Llamabeast had a dead seas version of the map with 8 fixed starts that was used for many games. There was a problem a couple of years ago that resulted in many maps being deleted but I believe it has been reposted under the name "Parganos (Llama's Fix) Deadsea, 8 fixed land starts". Give that one a try.

Relying on the game to assign starts can be ... interesting. In a recent game I had three neighboring provinces, split by a mountain range. I wasn't happy about this so the next time the game put me on a peninsula with only two neighboring provinces. :p

[Immaculate]

that sounds great Valerius!

[Jolly Roger]

Good idea !

[Valerius]

Like Immaculate, I also like this map a lot and have played many games on it but please note that not every start is equal. One in particular is problematic. Personally I'm ok with rolling the dice on these kinds of things (and the one time I did start in the worst spot I actually ended up having a good game) but if that's an issue you could also look at some of elmokki's maps that have been assigned fixed starts.

If you were six players the symmetrical, wrap-around Six Lands would be a perfectly balanced option.

[Calahan]

A word of caution on that 8-fixed start Parganos map. The starts have some major balance issues last time I checked (if it's the one I'm thinking of). As half the starts are fairly tough, while the other half have large sections of ringfenced provinces which ensure they have uncontested access to around 6 extra provinces compared to the others (who have to fight fairly and in contest for all of their provinces).

If you want a 8-player land map then I have a 8-fixed start for The Desert Eye (108+17) I can upload to the server if you like. (it should be on there already, but can't seem to find it).

You can go with any map you like of course, but as I say I think you need to be wary of the starts if that Parganos map is the one I think it is. (I would check it out but the llama link seems to lead to this random post rather than the map http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showpost.php?p=39857)

Edit - Lol, semi-ninja'ed (semi as I think it's more than one dodgy start, and more like eight :))

[Valerius]

Edit - Lol, semi-ninja'ed (semi as I think it's more than one dodgy start, and more like eight :))

Lol, but you feel like you won a prize when you do get one of those corner starts. :p

Guys, Calahan is much better at map balance than me so if he's offering to help I suggest you take his advice (especially because there was already a bit of a controversy regarding start locations).

[Valerius]

Cal, here is the link (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=39857) to the map file (looks like they linked to the thread id rather than the post id). And it includes the .map file (at first llama didn't post this because he wanted them to be a surprise).

Edit: disregard that; the .map files there don't show start locations.

[Tiavals]

Okay, people, we need to decide if we use the fixed Parganos or fixed Desert Eye map.

Everyone post their opinion here.

[Immaculate]

fixed paragos. you roll the dice... if i get a bad start location then thats just what i get... there is lots of chance already in this game- a bit more isn't going to kill us.

My vote anyway.

[Calahan]

I'll upload my Desert Eye map in case you want to use it (and in case I'm not around to do it later if you decide to go with it). You don't need the .map file, only the image file, which you should all have already (as it's a map that comes with the game).

Just in case though I've attached the image file to this post (just unzip it into your Dominions3/map directory.)

[Archmage]

I'd like a balanced map and am in favor of trying out the Desert Eye map with fixed starts as supplied by Calahan.

[Lumix19]

I really don't mind what map we play on. <s>By the way, I checked llama server and we seem to be missing a character. Did someone drop out?</s>

Edit: Nevermind, fungalreason dropped out.

[Tiavals]

I really don't mind what map we play on. <s>By the way, I checked llama server and we seem to be missing a character. Did someone drop out?</s>

Edit: Nevermind, fungalreason dropped out.

Also, the mysterious Chelms player has upped his pretender again. Ulm on the other hand is missing his pretender.

[Ragnarok-X]

I didnt upload my Ulm pret yet, correct.
What happens if i upload him now ? Is Chelms in and i will Ulm / me be in ?

[Lumix19]

Chelms is in but since fungal dropped out there is one more space, so if you send in your pret now you will be in.

[Immaculate]

The Chelms player should none-the-less post and introduce themselves here. Please send him an admin message to that effect please.

[Tiavals]

Yup, both Chelms and Ulm are in. Unless Chelms doesn't post here and remains silent, then I'll have to remove him, since an unknown player isn't good reliability wise, and I'd prefer no one dropped prematurely.

Any other opinions on the maps?

[Immaculate]

May i recommend that you just make an executive decision and that we start?

[Tiavals]

I'd rather do this properly, since this game'll probably last for weeks if not months, so a few more days of waiting shouldn't be so bad.

If there's no answer from Chelms and no more opinions about the maps, I'll start the game in 36 hours.

[Lumix19]

If there's no answer from Chelms and no more opinions about the maps, I'll start the game in 36 hours.

Sounds good.

[Tiavals]

I put one slot open in case Chelms doesn't say anything. I'd like 8 active and reliable players. :)

So, the person to post here first gets the slot, if it's not Chelms, then Chelms will be booted unfortunately.

[Anaconda]

herehere... so, if you allow me in, I would like to play C'tis.

[Tiavals]

Approved.

Hope you aren't too experienced!

Send your pretender to the llamaserver game so we may begin.

What's your opinon on the map?(read the last page or two)

[Anaconda]

I am experienced - in a good way (cant use it to my advantage :doh: ).

The character is done. Sending it to the server in a little bit...

Desert Eye looks nice good, Pretender in!

[Anaconda]

We can start?

[Tiavals]

The game has begun. We have the Desert eye as the map. If anyone has issue, don't be afraid to post. We've already had a handful but we can handle more. :)

Oh, and should we use in-game messaging for diplomacy, and this thread, or emails and whatnot?

[Anaconda]

Well, its Machiavellian diplomacy so diplo can happen using what ever method suitable? Even with sword and spear, if you dont find the common tongue?

But one question: This game is about the capitals, so the one to conquer all 8 and keeping them at the beginning of any one turn is the winner?

[Tiavals]

What I implied was that if people want emails of the other people, it'd be easy to gather them to one place, if no one fears spam.
Of course, any methods as such are allowed. ;)

Actually, there are 8 VPs besides the capitals scattered around the map, and you need 8 to win, so you roughly need 4 capitals and 4 VPs or any combination thereof. At least if I understood it correctly myself. :)

So if anyone has the majority of the map(or uses cunning like long range summons if the VPs are defenceless) he'll likely have enough VPs to win. So it's a good plan to guard those VPs in case someone uses stealthy units or such to surprise attack and take them.

[Tiavals]

Given that we're on turn two and no one has said anything, I guess there's no complaints and everything is good to go. Great.

[Anaconda]

I was wondering about those VPs, looking at the map it seems there is a cluster of 5 in the "middle" while the VPs around "borderlands" are really scarce... So are they like active or how does VPs dictate the winner? Honor-based, third party declares a winner or what?

[Tiavals]

No clue. I assume it's the game that determines it, so when a turn arrives where someone holds 8 VPs, it says roughly "Player X won".

If not, we'll just decide it. This isn't a super-competitive serious business game, so I would hope that people can play along without rules carved in stone. :)

[Lumix19]

I assume it's the game that determines it, so when a turn arrives where someone holds 8 VPs, it says roughly "Player X won".

This I think.

[Anaconda]

So that was enabled with Llama when the game was created? Just wanting to make sure in order to adjust my aim and orient it for the game :typing:

[Tiavals]

Given that the VPs are on the map, I'm quite sure I didn't forget to put it on. :)

So, VPs should be one way to win. Of course, the normal ways apply too, like defeating everyone with dominion or military force.

[Anaconda]

Given that the VPs are on the map, I'm quite sure I didn't forget to put it on. :)

Well, some maps seem to have VPs even if they are not enabled?

But, I copy to the info shared herein. Cheers!

[Tiavals]

Official diplomacy start!

Dear dojango-Utgardt, should you enter my Bogarussian lands, be aware that I will counter with the full force of my army. However, should stay in your own lands, I have no quarrel with you, for now at least. The same, of course, applies to other nations as well, such as Ulm who lives some distance from my lands.

[Anaconda]

Will we get a new turn soon? I am submitting mine in a little bit!

[Tiavals]

Will we get a new turn soon? I am submitting mine in a little bit!

Who knows. You can see how the turns progress over here:
http://www.llamaserver.net/gameinfo.cgi?game=IWouldBeSovereign

[Anaconda]

Will we get a new turn soon? I am submitting mine in a little bit!

Who knows. You can see how the turns progress over here:
http://www.llamaserver.net/gameinfo.cgi?game=IWouldBeSovereign

Yes, I know, lol.

I was targeting Ragna and Immaculate, because they both were online. Now its only Mictlan who is missing.

[Immaculate]

From Mictlan to Pythium,

We offer a non aggression pact with three turn warning of break (NAP(3)). Basically you (and I) would be guaranteed (as much as possible depending on trust levels) not to be attacked by one another without first providing a three turn warning that you were going to do so. If you want to discuss this further, please activate your PM system or go to http://widget02.mibbit.com/?server=irc.synirc.net&channel=%23dom3goons&nick=dom3goon_%3F%3F%3F


From Mictlan to Midgard,

Your suggested division of lands does not seem acceptable. We require the two lands you suggested that are along our border. If you want to discuss this further, please activate your PM system or go to http://widget02.mibbit.com/?server=irc.synirc.net&channel=%23dom3goons&nick=dom3goon_%3F%3F%3F

[Tiavals]

From Bogarus to Pythium,

The Province of Glanis(37) has been claimed for Bogarus. If you want compensation for not being able to add it to your empire, we can discuss it, but I recommend that you not move to the province. We had best talk about our relative borders soon.

[Lumix19]

From Pythium to Bogarus

The province of Glanis belongs to you however please be aware that I am moving forces into the Yellow Mountains (51) this turn. Please also note that I wish to claim Druid Land (58) but may not be able to do so for a few turns. If this is unacceptable please notify me and we can discuss this at length.

Edit:

From Pythium to Mictlan

An in-game message has been sent to you, please read carefully. I will not be attacking you this turn. If there is a more efficient way for us to communicate please inform me and instruct me on how to use it and we can continue our negotiations.

[Archmage]

From Mictlan to Midgard,

Your suggested division of lands does not seem acceptable. We require the two lands you suggested that are along our border. If you want to discuss this further, please activate your PM system or go to http://widget02.mibbit.com/?server=irc.synirc.net&channel=%23dom3goons&nick=dom3goon_%3F%3F%3F

Midgard to Mictlan:

As of now, I have both activated my PM system and joined the aforementioned channel, though I will be away nearly the entire weekend and therefore idling. You can leave me messages and I'll read them at the earliest convenience, however.

[Tiavals]

From Pythium to Bogarus

The province of Glanis belongs to you however please be aware that I am moving forces into the Yellow Mountains (51) this turn. Please also note that I wish to claim Druid Land (58) but may not be able to do so for a few turns. If this is unacceptable please notify me and we can discuss this at length.



That is most acceptable. Let these be our official borders. There is also the matter of province 74 that might be of interest to you, see below.



From Bogarus to Ulm and Utgardt:


I wish to discuss the ownership of the forest between the three of us. That is, 67, 64, 52. I would be pleased if I could get 67 without any hostility from either of you. In fact, I propose each of us take one piece of the forest. If either of you feel strongly of this, let us discuss it.


I also claim the mountains next to the forest(62).

As for the province 74, the one above the mountains, does either Ulm or Pythium know whom it belongs to? I intend to conquer it as my own in time. I am willing to negotiate it's ownership and might refrain from taking it if a deal is made.

[Tiavals]

Attention WORLD!

Let it be known throughout the land that the Gods of Frost have decided upon a Non-Aggression pact. Until two winters have passed from now(twenty turns), Bogarus and Utgardt shall refrain from entering each others lands or performing any sort of hostile actions, be it spells or military espionage upon each other. Before the pact is about to end, a new agreement might be negotiated(3 turns before the end). Should either side wish to cancel the pact, they shall inform the other(3 turns before hostile actions are taken).

Should either betray the pact by hostile actions without informing the other before the pact is over, let the whole world know of their treachery so that they may re-think their pacts with the traitor, should they feel the need to.

May snow cover the lands!

-God of Bogarus

[Lumix19]

From Pythium to Bogarus, Ulm and anyone else it may concern

In regards to province 74. I am moving forces to capture it this turn. If this is unacceptable to anyone please notify me and I will redirect my army.

[Lumix19]

NAP(3) between Pythium and Mictlan

In spirit of Tiavals' announcement of his pact with Utgardt I shall inform you all that an non-aggression pact has been formed between Pythium and Mictlan. For an indeterminate amount of time both Pythium and Utgardt shall refrain from military action directed at each other. If either Pythium or Mictlan wish to break this pact then 3 turns notice shall be given etc. You guys get the gist.

[Anaconda]

There was some announcement of possible stals... I would say delay host, there shouldnt be need for stals if its only couple of days delay.

[Tiavals]

You are quite right.

Change of plans:

There will be no hosting between Thursday and Sunday, after that things will proceed normally. Thanks for your patience.

[Tiavals]

Game proceeds. Sorry for the delay again.

[Tiavals]

Seems like Anaconda is going to stale.

[Archmage]

Midgard is in the market for some fire gems, say 10 or so. We're prepared to offer air, earth, or water gems in exchange. We can also offer forging services and are willing to negotiate on prices.

[Anaconda]

Sry about that, missed the deadline with few hours - delayed was it?

[Tiavals]

Sry about that, missed the deadline with few hours - delayed was it?

Yeah, I delayed the deadline by some 5 hours, so you technically missed it by quite a few. :)

Next time try to announce that you'll stale so we can see about delaying for a bit longer. After all, you're the one that's probably the most annoyed by the stale. :)

[Ragnarok-X]

I need a 24 hour extension. Sorry.

[Tiavals]

So it shall be.

[Immaculate]

I'll be away from Sunday afternoon until Wednesday, can i get an extension for that time?

[Tiavals]

I'll be away from Sunday afternoon until Wednesday, can i get an extension for that time?

Sure, provided I remember to slow the hosting in a while.

[Ragnarok-X]

I would require a minor extension, 6 hours back. Just got home from playing PaintBall and wont be home tomorrow in time for the turn (12 AM now).
sorry again.

[Tiavals]

I would require a minor extension, 6 hours back. Just got home from playing PaintBall and wont be home tomorrow in time for the turn (12 AM now).
sorry again.

I postponed it just in case, although the regular hosting won't be tomorrow in any case, I believe. At the moment it says friday for me.

[Lumix19]

From Pythium to Everyone

I've already sent a message to all of you concerning this matter in-game but I thought I should post it here too. Pythium is breaking the NAP(3) between Pythium and Mictlan. After three turns starting from next turn (which is turn 23) Pythium's forces will be able to attack Mictlan without loss of honor. I hope this is correct.

[Immaculate]

@Lumix19:
How is that without loss of honor? A three on one is completely without honor. And honestly not fun.

Let me address this issue plainly and speak openly,

When you engage in a three on one,

you are robbing yourselves of much of the fun of the game. This is suppose to be a game of skill (amongst other things) and there is little skill involved in attacking a nation's rear while it is engaged elsewhere. You are likely to face mostly province defense and not the mind of the player controlling the target nation. If you want to fight PD then you should play a single-player offline game.

You rob yourself of much of the enjoyment.

.

secondly, the player playing the targeted empire faces an impossible struggle. At this stage in the game i (the target empire) am still viable though obviously not in any position to compete for leadership since i am already engaged in a two-on-one). I cannot hope to successfully fight a three on one. No matter how well I play I cannot hope to be victorious. It simply isn’t fun for me to play in a game where my skill and decisions will have no outcome on the result.

You rob the target of much of the enjoyment of the game.


I hope I don’t sound whiney- I don’t mean to. I just mean to outline my thoughts on this sort of play-style.

And for those of you who say its what I had it coming to me for not performing diplomacy better, you are right also and I won’t argue against that but at the same time, consider that Pythium is breaking a NAP to engage in this pile-up.

For Pythium and Midgard’s neighbors, consider that they are engaged in war with Mictlan currently and will make very quick gains because I cannot defend against them while also maintaining pressure on Patala. They will be strengthened disproportionally and will gain a dominant position in this game very quickly if you do not act to strike at their borders now. Join with Mictlan in turning these nations and showing them that they are not the only ones who can force an opponent to fight a multi-front war.

[dojango]

There's nothing inherently wrong with participating in a 3 v. 1. I seem to recall once being attacked by Atlantis, Marignon and Tien Chi while playing Patala in one game...

The main disadvantage, of course, is that a late-comer nation will usually receive the least amount of the spoils, and is the most likely to lose his gains to the other two once the war is over. In the situation I recall, Tien Chi and Atlantis then ganged up on Marignon, depriving him of his share of Patala. So it was probably a mistake for Marignon to join in the coalition, but he wouldn't have known that betrayal was coming going into the war (especially because the logical move would have been for Tien Chi and Marignon to gang up on Atlantis, who was by far and away the strongest power in that game).

The general rule of thumb is that you don't want to help strengthen someone who's stronger than you. Without knowing the details in this situation, I can't tell if anyone is making that cardinal mistake, but keep in mind that it is often better to let your strongest neighbor get bogged down in a long war than it is to help him to an easy victory.

[Ragnarok-X]

Logical decision for Pythium would be to attack Midgard with their shifter armies in the field...

[Immaculate]

Oh well... issue is sort of mute anyway- i misclicked my jaguar warriors stack and sent them in unblessed and without mage support.

But you are right Dojango. And if someone is going down fast then its best to get a piece of the pie before they are gone anyway.

[Lumix19]

@Lumix19:
How is that without loss of honor? A three on one is completely without honor. And honestly not fun.

Let me address this issue plainly and speak openly,

When you engage in a three on one,

you are robbing yourselves of much of the fun of the game. This is suppose to be a game of skill (amongst other things) and there is little skill involved in attacking a nation's rear while it is engaged elsewhere. You are likely to face mostly province defense and not the mind of the player controlling the target nation. If you want to fight PD then you should play a single-player offline game.

You rob yourself of much of the enjoyment.

.

secondly, the player playing the targeted empire faces an impossible struggle. At this stage in the game i (the target empire) am still viable though obviously not in any position to compete for leadership since i am already engaged in a two-on-one). I cannot hope to successfully fight a three on one. No matter how well I play I cannot hope to be victorious. It simply isn’t fun for me to play in a game where my skill and decisions will have no outcome on the result.

You rob the target of much of the enjoyment of the game.


I hope I don’t sound whiney- I don’t mean to. I just mean to outline my thoughts on this sort of play-style.

And for those of you who say its what I had it coming to me for not performing diplomacy better, you are right also and I won’t argue against that but at the same time, consider that Pythium is breaking a NAP to engage in this pile-up.

For Pythium and Midgard’s neighbors, consider that they are engaged in war with Mictlan currently and will make very quick gains because I cannot defend against them while also maintaining pressure on Patala. They will be strengthened disproportionally and will gain a dominant position in this game very quickly if you do not act to strike at their borders now. Join with Mictlan in turning these nations and showing them that they are not the only ones who can force an opponent to fight a multi-front war.

Participating in this war, I admit, is not what I would prefer to do but I don't want Midgard taking all you're territories and then becoming too powerful to stop, I felt it was in my best interests to give you notice of the dissolution of the NAP and then snag some territory with you distracted. Absolutely no honor in that decision, I know and I'm sorry, but this is a good way to expand.

By the way, I would have attacked Midgard but I don't border him and I didn't want to incite a war with Bogarus or Ulm

[Tiavals]

I would guess Midgard has it's own neighbors that may attack it while his armies are on the field.

As for Pythium, I think I(Bogarus) don't have a NAP with him, so it would be most unwise for him to move against Mictlan, since I don't have to give any warning to attack.
On the other hand, for a total sum of 1500 gold, I'm willing to sign a NAP with Pythium right away.

It's obviously to the interest of most of us players that Mictlan won't fall yet, since it'll shift the balance of power quite a bit.

[Archmage]

How delightfully mercenary of Bogarus to offer its guarantee to...maybe not attack Pythium. For the low, low price of 1500 gold. What with diplomacy not being binding and all. I would expect that if Pythium turns its back to Bogarus that it will find a dagger between its proverbial ribs.

[Lumix19]

As for Pythium, I think I(Bogarus) don't have a NAP with him, so it would be most unwise for him to move against Mictlan, since I don't have to give any warning to attack.
On the other hand, for a total sum of 1500 gold, I'm willing to sign a NAP with Pythium right away.


Pythium thanks you for the offer but I find your sum of 1500 gold to steep for our impoverished nation to afford.


It's obviously to the interest of most of us players that Mictlan won't fall yet, since it'll shift the balance of power quite a bit.

I expect it will but allowing Midgard to take all of Mictlan's territory would be dangerous for me. With Mictlan on the brink anyway it might be better for me to just snag some territory whilst I still can.

[Tiavals]

Well, Bogarus will do as Bogarus sees fit. If indeed someone has any sort of interest in the situation, I am open to secret dealings from anyone. Money, gems, anything can be used to nudge me to a direction of their choice.

[Archmage]

I expect it will but allowing Midgard to take all of Mictlan's territory would be dangerous for me. With Mictlan on the brink anyway it might be better for me to just snag some territory whilst I still can.
Mictlan is a scary neighbor.

[Ragnarok-X]

Oh well... issue is sort of mute anyway- i misclicked my jaguar warriors stack and sent them in unblessed and without mage support.

But you are right Dojango. And if someone is going down fast then its best to get a piece of the pie before they are gone anyway.


Yes, i saw the battle and was like WTF is he doing. My condolences.

[Jolly Roger]

Gentlemen,

I´ll be on holidays now.

JimboJones will replace me during my vacation.

Cheers, Klaus

[Lumix19]

Dear Patala

I apologise for my unintentional attack upon your forces, I didn't realise you were moving into that province. :D

From Pythium

[Immaculate]

Bogarus & Pythium & Patala & Midgard,

Any of you feel like signing a ceasefire?

C'tis?
whatcha up to?

Any chance you might want to smack Pythium or Bogarus around a bit while their armies are touring beautiful Mictlan?

[Tiavals]

Bogarus & Pythium & Patala & Midgard,

Any of you feel like signing a ceasefire?

C'tis?
whatcha up to?

Any chance you might want to smack Pythium or Bogarus around a bit while their armies are touring beautiful Mictlan?

I wouldn't mind a cease fire or even permanent peace. What do you offer?

[Immaculate]

Out of my lands and into Pythiums? I'm not offering any money or anything, just that i'll stop slaughtering your troops.

[Tiavals]

I suspect I'll gain a lot more by taking your lands. Sorry, no deal.

[Immaculate]

Well, vis-a-vis the four on one that has arisen,

I know that i had said earlier that there was no fun in a three-on-one because the result was a foregone conclusion... but i was wrong. Even with the knowledge that i cannot win this, i am quite enjoying myself.

*tips hat*

[Lumix19]

Ouch :eek: I really shouldn't have done that, don't really like waking up to a mass slaughter of Hydras...

[Immaculate]

I'm still willing to sign cease fires with any of the four aggressor powers.

[Lumix19]

I'm still willing to sign cease fires with any of the four aggressor powers.

The issue is that you have sirens now which makes me very nervous.

[Immaculate]

Well, they'll be busy with my three other enemies if you sign a cease fire with me.

If you are seriously interested in discussing a potential cease-fire, please lets continue this privately. You can PM me if you like. Or look me up on one of the dominion chat rooms- i'm in and out of those every now and again.

[Immaculate]

I require a 48 hour extension on next turn (turn 31).

[Tiavals]

Seems like you didn't after all?

[Immaculate]

Yes- i am leaving town now. I need an extension on this turn coming up please.

[Ragnarok-X]

It would be cool if you would write how much of an extension you need :D
np with me.

[Anaconda]

Its up there, lol.

[Immaculate]

48h- this turn.

[Tiavals]

Postponed. Turn will process on Sunday at sometime.

[Lumix19]

No offense Mictlan but I found the battle with the Moon Priest and the black hawks hilarious.

The Story of the Moon Priest and the Birds

First chapter, the Moon Priest casts Horror Mark and utters a prayer to his god as he prepares to call a horror, knowing full well it will mean his death but rejoicing in the fact that it will bring down an entire army.

Second chapter, Midgard's birds swoop in and kill him and his slaves.

THE END. :D

P.S In writing it's not so funny :o

[Immaculate]

Yeah.... that was pretty funny. Lots of funny jokes in that turn for me. :doh: Lots of funny jokes coming up next turn too. ;)

[Archmage]

Mictlan seems to have turned the tide against Midgard, and we find ourselves with a gigantic army of Mictlan's forces on our doorstep. Consequently, however, we are pretty sure that Mictlan's southern and eastern lands are relatively poorly-defended. Do what you will with this information, neighbors of Mictlan.

[Immaculate]

yeah.. because that worked great before...?

EDIT: I am so going to AAR this after its done (well, would if i wasn't so lazy)

EDIT 2: Feel the wrath of my slingers. Slingers AWAAAAAAYYYYY!!!!

[Archmage]

You really should. I'm not sure whether your ability to push back advances is a consequence of poor decisions on the part of Midgard or your own brilliance, but this has been a hell of a war. I'm impressed by the way things have gone so far.

[Immaculate]

you didn't play poorly i feel...

...for awhile i thought i was done for... like 2-3 turns from dead... when all four of you were gunning for me... i almost went AI.

[Ragnarok-X]

Hm.
Pythiu, we had a NAP 3. What is your reasoning for attacking without canceling it first ?

[Lumix19]

Hm.
Pythiu, we had a NAP 3. What is your reasoning for attacking without canceling it first ?

Wait I'm confused, when did we agree to an NAP (3)? :confused:

[Ragnarok-X]

Like 15 turns back when we first meet and i agreed to let you have the provinces in between the mountains from which you are now staging your assault ?

[Lumix19]

Like 15 turns back when we first meet and i agreed to let you have the provinces in between the mountains from which you are now staging your assault ?

The only message I got regarding the provinces between the mountains was this one through private messaging. I thought the message said we would form a border agreement in the future but there was no further communication between us. Regardless I'm withdrawing my forces and if I misinterpreted your message I apologize for this serious breach of the contract that was formed.

[Immaculate]

To Bogarus,

We're breaking our nap now... see you soon on the field of battle... :)

[Archmage]

Let it be known that Midgard is not going down without a fight.

[Ragnarok-X]

Yo Lumix. The message im refering to send ingame. I appreciate your efforts though. Do you want to break the NAP 3, if you value it, now ?

[Lumix19]

Yo Lumix. The message im refering to send ingame. I appreciate your efforts though. Do you want to break the NAP 3, if you value it, now ?

Looking through the archives I see you sent me a message about mutual borders. I'm sorry but I did not realise this meant an NAP and I should have clarified with you. In response to your question I am going to say no. The NAP (3) can stay unbroken. :)

[Anaconda]

Please postpone host 24H.

[Ragnarok-X]

I would need a 24h extension, please.

[Tiavals]

I postponed it already once. I assume you don't need a postponement in addition to Anaconda's? :)

turn is due 01:00 on Tuesday GMT. Some 25 hours from now I think. Should I postpone it another 24 so it's Wednesday?

[Ragnarok-X]

No, that works. I will play my turn tomorrow after work which is 18 or so hjours from now. I will send it in 3-4 hours before 01 AM Tuesday.

thank you.

[Anaconda]

Need another 24H, thank you. And sorry about this.

[Tiavals]

Postponed.

[Anaconda]

Thank you, and I only needed some 24 minutes thou...

[Ragnarok-X]

Wow. How ****in retarted. Who the **** decided on no graphs and victory points and stuff. What a damn waste of time. Never again.

[Immaculate]

I havn't seen the turn but i suspect i know what you are upset about.

If it is what i think it is, i am very sorry...

What specifically are you upset about?

[Anaconda]

Lol

[Anaconda]

Simply beautiful.

[Ragnarok-X]

Well, Anaconda, did you ever fight anyone besides Indis in this game :D

At least i humihilated Utgard and made an Arch Devil my prophet. It was fun while it did last.

Immac: Its not your fault, not at all.

[Immaculate]

So my shishi drop worked? I won?

If so thats the greatest comeback i have ever had. I thought i was dead. I opened a turn (don't remember which but its the one when bogarus and pythium forces were spilling across my border and i had a central fort under siege by skinshifters with no real answer to them- all while fighting patala in their homeland), went ai, thought about it- didn't submit, opened it again fresh and played it out... Thats how close i was.

[Tiavals]

Wow. How ****in retarted. Who the **** decided on no graphs and victory points and stuff. What a damn waste of time. Never again.

You have me to blame. Then again, you knew what you were entering when you signed up! :D

I suppose it was a misjudgement to have the victory points set so low. Usually a game is "over" when someone has enough VPs anyway. Guess this time was the exception.

Sorry and thanks to the people who participated.

Guess we can't continue the game anymore, or is there a method to play despite it being over?

[Ragnarok-X]

Nothing can be done about it.

Funny how you played your trump card, but it was trumped by another trump card. lol.

[Immaculate]

What do you mean by trump card?

i.

[Immaculate]

And does anyone want to give a brief and unoffocial AAR just to hear how things went, what their plans were etcetera?

[Tiavals]

For Bogarus, things were uneventful. I made NAPs with all of my neighbors, except Pythium. For much of the game, I intended to focus my attacks on Pythium. But as fate would have it, we became staunch allies. Then I decided to attack Ulm, when it seemed he was powerful, but we had a NAP with a most annoying clause of "will have to go on for 20 turns before can be cancelled", and I didn't realize it. So to pass the time I moved my armies to Mictlan, where they were promptly annihilated.
I realized I had to modernize, so I redoubled my research. By this time I had produced some 50 storm demons and had planned to have all my Starets cast Hellfire on the enemy, thinking that those forces combined would make short work of any foe. Then I intended to attack Ulm as I finally could. I took a handful of provinces, then it came to my attention that Mictlan was growing strong again and beat Midgard, so I tried to make peace with Ulm and planned with Pythium to attack Mictlan with all of our strength, I also tried to convince Ulm to do the same.
And then the game was over. :)

[Ragnarok-X]

Bogarus trump was obviously the Gift of Health he did cast this turn.

My Plan ?
Well, i was metagaming. Halberds kill Giants good and in addition i had ghoul guardians who could chop down wereskrattis.
Basicly, Utgard expanded too much into my direction and i was forced to attack him. I won 2 major battles and then i lost a major battle because i had a all my ranged troops on attack instead of fire.
I then got soul slay and a huge communion did take out loads of giants which is good, cuz i rather soul slay one size 4 giant than one size 2 human.

This turn, i had planned a blood communion with hellbind heart on a douzen skratti thugs and i they would have been mine. Then i would have conquered the sea above my capitol and attacked pythium together with ctis.
I had a couple devils under possesion (GoR) thugged out and one arch devil prophet.
My gem income was really, really bad despite more than average searchin imho.
But i had great research due to 3 quick forts and magic 3.

[Immaculate]

Well, i got to see the turn. I guess thats it.

Thank you all for a really great game. Sorry i whined about the 4v1.

Immac.

[Lumix19]

Hey all, thanks for a fun game. A surprising, and impressive, victory for Mictlan.

[Archmage]

Good game, everyone. I really thought I had Mictlan on the ropes--and then they come around and win everything!

[Immaculate]

you did have me on the ropes. i had no real good response to your shifters for a long time.

[Lumix19]

Umm guys? Why has this game not been declared over yet?

[Tiavals]

Didn't realize I had to do that.

Game has been declared over now.

Is there some weird thing I need to do in addition to this?

[Lumix19]

Don't think so but now Immaculate can get a big neon sign saying "I WON AN MP GAME. I'M NO LONGER A NEWBIE"
Congrats by the way.

BTW it may sound rude but it's not meant to be, I was just emphasising how important a win is in an MP game and how Immaculate should be proud of his achievement.

[Tiavals]

I suppose congratulations are in order, especially since he was in dire straits at one point and managed to pull through, and won using cunning even. :)

[Immaculate]

this is actually my second win- i got another while we were playing this as patala.

i took no offense

in this game i learnt,
1) defensive movement traps are the shiznit.
2) slingers are the counters to a) hydras, and b) skinshifters
3) horrors are not as good as i think they are.

[Tiavals]

this is actually my second win- i got another while we were playing this as patala.

i took no offense

in this game i learnt,
1) defensive movement traps are the shiznit.
2) slingers are the counters to a) hydras, and b) skinshifters
3) horrors are not as good as i think they are.

What do you mean by movement traps?

[Immaculate]

You set up a trap for the opponent's movement phase. If you know (or can guess) where the opponent will move to, you set up some PD to tie up the opponent while you put one or two mages in the back to actually kill the enemy. Its a very cost-effective way to kill opponent forces.

This is based on the idea that the defender always 'moves first'. Ie- reinforcements always arrive before the opponent attacks UNLESS he attacks during the magic movement phase.

As an example, Archmage sent a thug, a vanjarl with a golden shield and a firebrand (and maybe a luck amulet- i don't recall) scripted to bless, mistform, mirror image (and maybe air shield) via cloud trapeeze into one province. Thats a pretty hefty opponent in my back row when my main armies were elsewhere fighting his main armies of skinshifters, etc. So what i did was send 4 turkeys (1s2n) to two of the neighboring provinces (2 in each). each had 3 nature gems and was scriped to cast, "Swarm, Swarm, eagle eyes, Vine arrow, Vine arrow". And i bought about 5-11 PD in each of the provinces, maybe less. So when he moved, and he did, he thought he would be attacking mostly PD but ended up moving into a 'defensive movement trap' and losing a vanjarl and 20-25 gem worth of equipment to my four nature gems.

Thats what i meant.



EDIT: i think you need this tool i your toolbox to move from newbie to intermediate level play. my 2 cents.

[Tiavals]

Hmm, interesting.

I didn't know defenders moved first. But I will from now on, thanks. :)

[Lumix19]

So I realised I hadn't written a quick AAR yet and probably should.

My quick AAR

I choose a rainbow Serpent King (thematic reasons) god whom i hoped would forge all the boosters i needed for my low level mages. I used Hydras to expand as only a few of them can take on almost any independent with ease. Once I made two small armies of Hydras I began recruiting Comitatense and Palatines from my capital and used Serpent Priests for research. I researched thaumaturgy and conjuration for site searching spells and path boosting spells then went for construction for boosters. After that I went for evocation for Falling Fires. Once I knew who my neighbours were (C'tis = North, Ulm = East, Mictlan = West, Bogarus = South) I realised I had to assess the dangers they posed at various stages in the game and act accordingly.
I reasoned that Ulm is good early game because of their powerful infantry but their low magic resistance made them weak end game so I thought iron bane would be a useful spell against them as well as curse of stones.
Mictlan is dangerous right through the game because of their Jaguar Warriors and buffed Jaguar Warriors are even worse but Jaguar Warriors have low protection so if used archers and flaming arrows with a lucky Heliodromus that would be effective. Also high fire bless seems like the staple for Mictlan so my Solaris troops with their 50% fire res would be useful, especially boosted with fire fend or warriors of Muspelheim. Luckily those spells were in the same school.
C'tis is powerful end game because that's when they can start spawning armies of undead at once and backed with powerful battle magic I reckoned I would have difficulty dealing with them, I had researched thaumaturgy so I had dust to dust and evocation for Falling Fires to deal with the living troops and I got cleansing water as well for the undead.
Bogarus has excellent mages and exponential research so he would be a real threat in midgame when he had high level magic and I only had mid/low level magic but I didn't think if him as a threat for early game. I also felt I needed an ally so I befriended him.

Mictlan offered an NAP early on, presumably to secure his safety as he attacked Patala but i'm not sure and (though i didn't realise it due to my misunderstanding) Ulm offered an NAP too. I accepted and just sat around for a few turns with no real plan in mind but to create and extensive scouting network and research as much as possible. When it became clear Mictlan was on the ropes I decided to break our NAP in the hoped I would gain some valuable lands. Meanwhile I noted hat Ulm was defeating Utgard. I decided to use my Hydras and unfortunately they got slaughtered so with a huge army of Jaguar Warriors about to attack and no Hydras I made my peace with Mictlan and retreated. I decided to attack Ulm to secure Utgard's future and attacked unfortunately breaching the terms of our NAP and I retreated. Realising what a threat Mictlan was now he was knocking on Midgard's door I worked with Bogarus to take down Mictlan. I also knew C'tis was planning an attack on me so I was forced to split my forces. Then the game was over.

Things i've learned:
*Hydras are useful in expansion but need buffs to survive fighting against other nations.
*Poorly placed scouts can mean the difference between seeing an army of reinforcements and not seeing one.
*I need to communicate more with my neighbours, the only one I was taking with was Bogarus and sometimes Mictlan so I wasn't entirely sure whether C'tis was really planning an attack and I didn't know of Ulm's involvement.
*My choice of god and scales was bad compared to what it should have been, if I had gone with a Forge Lord and better scales to complement my resource hungry troops and my money hungry Maenads I would have been better off.
*Site searching spells aren't all that useful and because of that I lacked magic gems throughout most of the game. I should have sent out my god to do lots of site searching.
*Luck with enemy dominions (from what i've read) actually causes misfortune, I didn't have any luck but I think Bogarus did and his dominions started to encroach on my territory a bit (not that I'm blaming you for that Bogarus, it's not real,y in your control and I should have been managing my dominion better) so I had some bad luck. Also building temples with good scales is a good idea as it spreads your dominion and gives you greater income for more temples and troops.
*Serpent Priests were probably not the most cost efficient mage for research and I probably should have gone for the Renata.

Just some of the things I learnt, it was a great learning experience and lots of fun. Thanks everyone.

[Immaculate]

I love the serpent king- one of my favorite pretenders and definitely my favorite rainbow. nice write-up.

[Lumix19]

I love the serpent king- one of my favorite pretenders and definitely my favorite rainbow. nice write-up.

Thanks. The Serpent King was definitely a better choice then some of the others not only because it's thematic but because he demands a heat scale of 1 or 2 to prevent encumberance which nets some extra points and boosts the Heliodromus and Leo because of their fire power ability. But upon reflection I wanted to use my pretender for forging and without the Dwarven Hammer the Forge Lord was the best option for me to save those extra gems that I desperately needed.

[Immaculate]

I think a rainbow nets you more gems than the forge lord saves you. my 2cents.

[Lumix19]

I think a rainbow nets you more gems than the forge lord saves you. my 2cents.

Hmm possibly, depending on how fortunate you are with sites.

[Ragnarok-X]

Oh yeah, a word of Pretender Choice.
I did play LA Ulm and took a Blood Fountain, albeit without any Death on it. So i didnt play into Ulms greatest strength.
Doh.