MP YARG4, non newb LA RAND game. WL wins

[WraithLord]

Welcome to YARG4. The toughest and meanest dominions3 arena, where the vets beat each other senseless.
This is a RAND type game. As in Random Anonymous No Diplomacy game.
Diplomacy or any form of communication is not allowed.

The game is not strictly targeted for vets but it is certainly not for green newBs.
In all previous YARG games the playing level was superb and players fought with tenacity and honor.
So the most important thing is your mettle. We want tough sons of *****es who won't go AI or stale on the first sign of trouble .
So try the following quiz:
A. I just lost a major battle. That sucks. Should I turn AI or start staling?
B. I just got gang banged by X nations. That sucks. Should I turn AI or start staling?
C. I just got attacked by stupid player XYZ, doesn't he see that it's an awful stupid move. That sucks. Should I turn AI or start staling?

If you've answered yes to at least one of them, then please join another game. YARG is not for the feint of heart. Here wars or fought the very bitter end.

Let's recap YARG history. Three games took place: YARG1 (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=43461&page=9), YARG2 (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=45188&page=10) and YARG3 (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showpost.php?p=782419&postcount=1)

:party:
YARG HoF:
A titan towering above mere mortals. Shrewd and fierce. He has viscously crushed all opposition and put the world under his iron boot. All hail the glorious victor. I give you the YARG winners:
YARG1: Isokron. :first:
YARG2: Dimaz and Psycho. :first:
YARG3: Executor. :first:

These guys have made to the end. They've endured constant wars and heavy beatings. They were rushed, attacked, gang banged and took pretty much any form of abuse known in dominions universe but they did not succumb. They resisted defeat and extinction to the very end. They are the last shred of hope to their nations and should the iron grip of the winner ever loosen they will rise again to put up the fight. I give you YARG iron man:
YARG1: WingedDog, Raiel, Executor , TwoBits, Dimaz, WraithLord. :fire:
YARG2: Don Pablo, Agusti, Slobby, WingedDog, WraithLord. :fire:
YARG3: Two Bits/Calahan, don Pablo, Slobby, mockingbird , WraithLord, Curious Yellow. :fire:

This individual is wise and generous. His selflessness allows us to enjoy the game. He is there to make sure the game runs smoothly. We all owe a big thank you to our beloved admin.
YARG1: rdonj.
YARG2: rdonj.
YARG3: rdonj.
:party:

YARG4 description:
This is a RAND game. So no diplomacy whatsoever. No posting here your identity, your nation or giving clues as to what your ID is. Nations are assigned randomly.

I will maintain the game thread. I will create and end the game. However Amhazair will be our admin. He will also assign nations.
A big thank you for Amhazair for taking on this selfless task!!!

Please note that during the game I'll be stepping back and will be just another player. Don't PM me re. admin. stuff only PM Amhazair.

Some of the settings are open for discussion, the rest are fixed and will be marked by bold font.

Map: Orania MP (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showpost.php?p=782419&postcount=1)
Hosting Pace: First 15 turns every 24h, turns 15-30 48h, turn 30-45 72h, turn 45-60 96h, turn > 61 120h.
Considerate extension giving policy. Hosting is planned for busy ppl.
Mods: CBM 1.92 EDM summons cost increase (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showpost.php?p=807207&postcount=1)
Renaming: off
Research: difficult
Graphs: on
HoF: 15
Indies: 9
Disallowed exploits: copying Bogus' orders and overfilling enemy lab to prevent his own forge.
Killing own mages under Ankh or LaD to gain freebe mages and troops. It's ok in a battle but it's not ok to set it up on purpose (whoever likes to do it knows what I'm talking about). I'm no longer certain whether or not CBM1.84 has fixed this. If it didn't please don't abuse it.
Probing armies with scouts/commanders must be done in such a way so as not to block movement.
Era: LA
Nations: Ban LA Ermor & R'lyeh - 19 players
Victory condition: ~50% VPs == 9 VPs. Each capital has 1 VP visible on game map. Maybe less VPs to have reasonable exit condition.
Pretenders should be given nations name!


Players:
1. Slobby, Ruler of Arco. Defeated on turn 35.
2. WraithLord
3. tratorix, subbed by Curiousyellow. Ruler of Ulm.
4. ghoul31, Ruler of Marignon. Turned AI on turn 25.
5. Austen, Ruler of Jomon. Defeated on turn 28.
6. sansanjuan, Ruler of Agartha. Defeated on turn 36.
7. Larz, Ruler of Man. Defeated on turn 34.
8. Stagger Lee, Ruler of Atlantis. Defeated on turn 44.
9. danbo, Ruler of Gath.
10. GFSnl, Ruler of Midgard.
11. Korwin, Ruler of Mictlan. Defeated on turn 28.
12. Kungfoo, Ruler of TC. Turned AI on turn 18.
13. Frozen Lama, Ruler of Ctis.
14. KeithZ, Ruler of Patala. Defeated on turn 24.
15. Executor, Ruler of Pythium.
16. fungalreason, Ruler of Utgard.
17. Fantomen, Ruler of Abysia. Defeated on turn 32.
18. Bullock, Ruler of Pangaea.
19. Whollaborg, Ruler of Bogarus. Defeated on turn 39.

[tratorix]

In to make up for my terrible performance as TC last game.

[ghoul31]

I always do bad on this, because I always get a nation I hate.

But I will give it another try.

[Austen]

I'd love to give this a go!

[Slobby]

Oh I do have one settings request. No clue where Llama is on the next version of CBM with the increased req's for EDM summons, IF this gets ready to go and the new CBM isn't out yet can we do our own CBM EDM fix with the increased casting requirements?

[sansanjuan]

I'm in.
ssj

[Larz]

I would like to play.

[Stagger Lee]

I like the format, and would like to play again.

[danbo]

I'm in.

[WraithLord]

Oh I do have one settings request. No clue where Llama is on the next version of CBM with the increased req's for EDM summons, IF this gets ready to go and the new CBM isn't out yet can we do our own CBM EDM fix with the increased casting requirements?

Agree. Say 20% cost increase all around?
Only problem I'm not sure how to do it. A quick look at the .dm file didn't find me the cost set line.

[GFSnl]

You have to look at the line '#fatiguecost 700'
This one makes the spell cost 7 gems. Fatigue/100.

I'm in btw :).

[WraithLord]

ok. opened a dedicated thread (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?p=807207#post807207)for this.

[KeithZ]

I like non-diplo game and would love to join this one.

[WraithLord]

rejoice players for a player has stepped up to become our admin.
So a big round of :clap: for Amhazair.

Please note that he doesn't have all day accesses to the internet so he'll need up to a 24h heads up to do stuff. And if asked w/ short notification then you're running the risk of him not being able to react in time.

[Amhazair]

Note that the 24h above is just to be on the safe side. Just that I don't have internet at work, so under "normal" circumstances I can only check this thread and my messages in the evening. (I'm from Belgium, so European time for those who want to cut it close and risk dicing with Death. (Or Stales. :))

Do you want me to do nation assignment too WL, or is that covered already?

[WraithLord]

Nation assignment is so much fun. How can I take it from you? :)

Unless for some reason you don't want to. In that case I'll look for another generous player who'll agree to do it.

edit: 15 players is enough to have a good game. Let's wait the weekend for up to 4 more players then close recruitment and prepare the game.

P.S. Don't forget to use the CBM - EDM cost increase mode (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?p=807291#post807291)

[fungalreason]

Sounds fun; I'll join.

[Fantomen]

I'd like to play.

[Bullock]

I don't want to miss that, count me in ! :)

[WraithLord]

Last sweet spot remains :)

[Whollaborg]

Let me fill the last sweet spot.

[WraithLord]

Good. We're fully booked gentleman.

I take it next Amhazair will kindly see to the nation assignment.

I also assume we're all cool w/ the map.

[Slobby]

Good. We're fully booked gentleman.

I take it next Amhazair will kindly see to the nation assignment.

I also assume we're all cool w/ the map.

We're going to be using the modified one from Y3 right?

[WraithLord]

Yes. I'll add a link to the OP.

[Amhazair]

Nations have been assigned. Flood control will make me its *****, and I'm doing some other stuff too atm, so it might be a little while before everyone has their nations.

Wraithlord, will you set up the games with the settings you want?

[Amhazair]

Well, that went better than expected. Everyone should have received a PM with their nation. If you didn't get a PM just let me know. (I estimate there's roughly a 7,41% chance I missed someone in the flood control bull****.)

[WraithLord]

Nations have been assigned. Flood control will make me its *****, and I'm doing some other stuff too atm, so it might be a little while before everyone has their nations.

Wraithlord, will you set up the games with the settings you want?
Yes. Let's give everyone a week or so to prepare and then start

[WraithLord]

Don't forget to use the correct CBM mod for your pretenders (check OP)!

[Executor]

Amhazir, I believe you still owe me a nation.

[WraithLord]

Don't forget. Game start ETA - next Monday.
Use the time to perfect your builds :)

[Whollaborg]

Good luck everyone!

[Executor]

I assume this being a LA game magic site frequency is set to 35? Very important pretender design detail.

[PriestyMan]

Boy am i glad i double checked the settings. that indies 9 slipped past me up until now.

[Stagger Lee]

Don't forget difficult research, too!

[WraithLord]

Yes to all.

Game is up http://www.llamaserver.net/gameinfo.cgi?game=YARG4. Bring your pretenders on :)

[Fantomen]

This is a minor nitpick, and I'm not suggesting changing anything now for this game.

But in the future when a combined mod is compiled for a specific game, it is much more convenient for testing and file management if the mod is named after the game.

[WraithLord]

Well, at least one more game uses it.
Plus, I'll use it for all my games until CBM makes a permanent fix.

[Amhazair]

5 Players have still to submit their pretenders. We're talking Ulm, Midgard, T'ien Ch'i, Pythium and Abysia. PM'ed the players in question. (I suppose it's pretty obvious, but don't post any public appologies or the like. ;) )

[Amhazair]

Only one nation left now, and the player in question already let me know he'd submit tonight, so we/you should be off soon enough.

[WraithLord]

Game started. Many thanks to Amhazair!

Good luck all. Fight brave and brutal for the meanest dog will make it to the top ;)

[Amhazair]

Looks like the first turn went off without a hitch. Good luck & Have fun to everyone.

Anyone feeling the need to discuss anything about this game, feel free to pester me about it.

[Executor]

**** me, we should have really used pre-set start positions. It's going to make for some interesting wars but a very unbalanced game I think.

[Amhazair]

Fella's, I see there's been a couple of stales over the last few turns. While one stale isn't necessarily the end of the world, remember this is supposed to be a relaxed pace game, so if you think you're going to be busy or arent sure you'll be able to make the deadline, don't be afraid to ask for delays. (Preferably in advance so I'm sure to see it in time.)

[Amhazair]

72h added by player request. (That's quite a bit of time so I wanted to say something about it rather than just doing it. ;) )

[Amhazair]

The staling Ulm and T'ien Ch'i players have failed to respond to my messages, so I just had a look at their turns. T'ien Ch'i's position is entirely unsalvageable, so I'll just be setting them to AI.

Ulms isn't great either, (I don't think I'm giving anything away here, everyone can look at the graphs) but at least they're not at war (as far as I can tell) and probably still worth playing. I'll be looking for a sub for them. (Might have found one already actually, just have to confirm they want to take on this particular job.)

[Amhazair]

Just re-sent the Ulm turn to a friendly sub, and turned T'ien Ch'i AI, so the game should resume shortly.

[Amhazair]

I've got a request to change remainder e-mails to 24h. Anyone else would prefer it that way?

[Amhazair]

I'll be going on a trip early tomorrow till late on the 18th. I've discussed admining with WL, and he suggested that rather than looking for a temporary admin we'd change the hosting time to 4 days (=96h) to give everyone plenty of time to do their turns even if an emergency comes up. (And even if someone completely drops from the face of the earth they shouldn't stale more than once really.)

Added 12h to this turn already due to player request and will check tonight before going to bed for any last-minute requests, WL will then change hosting time for the next turn(s) till I'm back.

[WraithLord]

Enjoy your trip Amhazair :)

[Amhazair]

Just to let everyone know I'm back and can pester me again with any admin requests they may have. Changed hosting interval back to 48h as per the original schedule too.

WL: in case you want to edit the OP, T'ien Ch'i was played by Kungfoo.

[PriestyMan]

Mari is AI and Patala is defeated. Who were they?

[Amhazair]

Mari was played by Ghoul31 and Patala by KeithZ

[PriestyMan]

Jomon and Mictlan?

[Amhazair]

Looks like people are dropping like flies now. Jomon was played by Austen, Mictlan by Korwin.

[Fantomen]

I'm dead, was playing Abysia.

Good game everyone!

[Bullock]

There is few mistakes on the turn players have been defeated since we are playing trn 32 :)

1. Slobby
2. WraithLord
3. tratorix
4. ghoul31, Ruler of Marignon. Turned AI on turn 25.
5. Austen, Ruler of Jomon. Defeated on turn 38.
6. sansanjuan
7. Larz
8. Stagger Lee
9. danbo
10. GFSnl
11. Korwin, Ruler of Mictlan. Defeated on turn 38.
12. Kungfoo, Ruler of TC. Turned AI on turn 18.
13. Frozen Lama
14. KeithZ, Ruler of Patala. Defeated on turn 24.
15. Executor
16. fungalreason
17. Fantomen, Ruler of Abysia. Defeated on turn 42.
18. Bullock
19. Whollaborg

[WraithLord]

Fixed the +10 to turn # bug :)

Glad to know at least someone is paying attention ;)

[Amhazair]

Pfff. I only pay attention to things that concern me. If your OP is inaccurate I'm not bothered. :) (Except the part about contacting me for adminy stuff, but that's correct.)

[Larz]

I was Man. Good luck everyone!

[Amhazair]

Changed reminder e-mails to 24h after a frienly reminder from one of the players. Since we're at 72h I don't suppose there will be any objection. (But if there are let me know, can allways call an official vote or something.)

[Slobby]

Arco here
GG

[sansanjuan]

I was hapless Agartha. Though I was without "hap" I very much enjoyed the game. Looking forward to YARG5.
-ssj

[WraithLord]

Thank you guys for a great game.

Yes. I'll be looking fwd to seeing you all (hopefully) in YARG5 :)

[Amhazair]

Looks like Bogarus has been eliminated at some point. (Don't ask me when, only just noticed by checking the score graphs on the Llamaserver.) Was played by Whollaborg.

[Amhazair]

We've had 3 of the major players staling in the last few turns, and one player contacted me with a feeling there is no point in continuing due to Caelums overwhelming advantage.

In view of the situation I'd like every remaining player to PM me wether they feel like playing on (and Caelum is only 1 VP away from victory, so if his advantage is as big as I'm led to believe this shouldn't take too long) or want to throw the towel. DO NOT post any opinions in the thread.

And incidentally, Atlantis was played by StaggerLee. He notified me he was going AI last turn, and after review of his turn I agreed there was nothing much he could achieve by playing on.

[Amhazair]

I'm still waiting on one or two answers before I call it, will PM the players in question. Was about to extend the timer but I see WL beat me to it.

[Amhazair]

Well, I received the answers I was looking for, and looks like you are all in unanimous agreement to declare Caelum the winner. Congratulations Wraithlord. (Who will no doubt forgive me this grand unveiling. :p) I wasn't actually in the game to actually see how it all unfolded, but a game of this size being convincigly won by turn 45 looks pretty spectacular to me.

The other remaining players (in order of provinces held) were:

Pangaea: Bullock
Gath: Danbo
Pythium: Executor
Midgard: GFSnl
Utgard: Fungalreason
Ulm: Curiousyellow, who took over from Trattorix on turn 18. (With my thanks.)
C'tis: FrozenLama

Also, for all those thanking me for doing a good job as admin I can honestly reply that this was the easiest admin job I have ever held, with practically no intervention needed from my side, so than you for making it all so easy on me.

[sansanjuan]

Am,
Thanks for adminning! Any aars?

Ex
So you were my nemesis Pythium. Well played. I could not find the go switch for early game Agartha even in test games. I thought I might get lucky and have a run after seiging TC's cap but had no answer to those 8 ethereal hydras hitting my backside next turn. My only bright spot was later killing the 28 hydras during the siege of my cap. Curious why you didn't buff them again.
ssj

PS sign me up for yarg5..

[don_Pablo]

Congratulations!

I wasn't in a game but the score-graphs looks just amazing.
I hope WL will give his AAR at least (though archive of turns would be much more appreciated)
:)

[Curious Yellow]

Congrats WraithLord.

I subbed in around turn 15 as an Ulm that seemed pretty doomed already. Five provinces, one castle, big neighbours and not much of an army to write home about. I tried to attack my smallest neighbour, Atlantis, and hoped someone else would hit him from another side to give me a chance to keep some of his territory. That didn't happen and it became a stalemate, both of us winning a few major battles. In the end Atlantis was attacked by Utgard, and Caelum swooped in to take my capital at some point. I held on to the second fort until the end, because none of the big players saw it as worth their while to go after it.

Most annoying moment was losing my crone pretender to an assasin because I had taken away her two pearls for Returning that turn.

[Executor]

Congrats WL, well played.


Ex
So you were my nemesis Pythium. Well played. I could not find the go switch for early game Agartha even in test games. I thought I might get lucky and have a run after seiging TC's cap but had no answer to those 8 ethereal hydras hitting my backside next turn. My only bright spot was later killing the 28 hydras during the siege of my cap. Curious why you didn't buff them again.
ssj


I had everything planned to perfection and than TC screwed me and turned AI. The plan was to hit you while you were occupied with TC and to have TC take on a part of your army, weakening the both of you in the process.
However, what happened was I attacked you, and TC turned AI and attacked me. So instead of what I thought would be a 5 turn blitz turned into a painful 20 turn war...
By the time I had finished with you I was still dealing with the AI TC and had to try and figure out how to attack Caelum who clearly needed to be deal with.
No comment on the hydras however, that was just dumb on my part. Didn't expect you to actually meet my army.

Anyway, Danbo;
I'm not sure RAND games are for you. The turn I throw a weak arsed punch at Caelum after a few stales to try and stop him you decide it's a good time to attack me and practically ensure Caelum wins. Not that there was much chance of stopping WL at that point anyway but at least we could have tried.

[Executor]

Congrats WraithLord.
Most annoying moment was losing my crone pretender to an assasin because I had taken away her two pearls for Returning that turn.

:D
Sorry about that!
Tried to take advantage and grab your capital before Caelum showed up but that didn't go so well.:mad:

[fungalreason]

From Utgard's perspective:

This game didn't work out at all like I thought. Early on I realized that I was in a tough spot caught between two heavy bless nations, Mictlan and Atlantis. I likely had a poor build for Utgard, but had difficulty balancing wanting some diversity and finding something that could expand fast enough on Indies-9. Fortunately Atlantis was discovered early. Bogarus was to my north, and I would have much rather gone after them (lost SC god very early), but couldn't do so with the two threats to my sides. My entire early game plan was devoted to trying to rush Atlantis early on. They could sail directly to my cap from theirs, which had me very concerned. Just as I was about a turn away from attacking, Mictlan invaded from the other direction.

I was really caught by surprise by this. Midgard (who had a substantial lead at this point) bordered them on the other side, so it left them pretty vulnerable as long as I could defend my cap. I still had to delay a bit to finish getting skratti online. Incidentally I had the worst luck. Out of 15-20 recruited only a single W3 one :( As expected, Midgard swooped in, and Mictlan fell. I assumed I would be next in line for Midgard, so had to keep some forces on the western front to them honest, and potentially invade if it seemed that Gath or Caelum was likely to join in. I didn't see any indication of this, so finally resumed my scheme to jump on the now weakened Atlantis (they had been at a stalemate with Ulm all this time).

By the time I was finally able to move (this is why early wars usually are terrible for both parties), Caelum had already basically begun conquering the world, and I was too income starved to do much more than defend the VP. I don't understand why everyone waited so late to do something about the obvious threat. It seemed nation after nation was caught by complete surprise, and and/or staled at critical moments. This was my first YARG though, maybe that's just how it always plays out? At the very least Wraithlord deserves major props for striking at the most opportune moments.

Most amusing moment - tricking Bogarus into trying to seduce with 5 or so Sirin and losing them all. Biggest disaster - failed storming of Atlantis. I didn't account for the monolith, and simply couldn't quite take it down. I had a few ethereal x-bows, but they died to archers or something in the siege, and my decked out Skratti got caught behind it, and didn't retreat. I think Caelum struck the very next turn, and recovery was hopeless at this point.

[Bullock]

From Pangaea:

I did a poor game because i had no plan for late stage, and used badly my SC pretender which became pretty useless. Fortunately with a strong economy and the help of minotaurs i managed to slaughter a couple neighbors (3?) who hadn't much to repel my units. I was starting to have nice stuff and army (a bit splitted into my realm) and then caelum showed up... with 3 times the ressources of everybody and some really nice items.
Despair came with the few stales of Midgard who was the only other nation who could have helped me against Caelum.

But as i said i was lacking late game strategy so it would have been very hard anyway. So congratz WL !

@Ulm: I didn't attack you because you were already fighting valiantly against several nations, it would have been a shame for a couple more provinces.

[Stagger Lee]

Congrats WL!

[WraithLord]

Thank you all for this excellent & exciting game!
The playing level and competition were high despite the deceiving early victory.
I also want to extend a big thank you to Amhazair for admining this game and to Dimaz for assigning nations

This is my first ever win in a RAND type game and the earliest I've ever one.
I credit this to perfect luck. Almost every choice I made, every guess, was right on the spot and I absolutely don't expect this kind of luck to happen again. Not soon anyway.
It also helped a great deal that none jumped me when it was still possible to stop me. Only Pythium and later Pangaea attacked me but it was too little too late.

I played EA Caelum once, in the artifacts game, and put to play lessons hard learned. Mainly re. usefulness of crow tribe.
I also took to heart Executor's observation from last YARG that I play too cautiously and decided the hell w/ caution in this game :D

Caelum short AAR:

- My Pretender
Caelum, King of Kings, the Hidden One, the Divine Shepherd, Lord of this World,
Prince of Insects
Caelum, Late Era
Master Druid (Body 268, 10 hits)
Magic: Nature 4
Dominion 9
Scales: Order 3 Productivity 3 Cold 3 Growth 3 Misfortune 2 Drain 2
Awake

- game plan: make lot's of money. have good resources. Concentrate on building all flying super mobile armies.
Let awake Dragon deal w/ early expansion.
Then, scout like crazy. Find weak opponents. Jump one, or even two at a time. Make the kill. repeat.

I went almost straight for construction 8. Picked up and cast two globals on the way. Not strong but enough to give my plans a push.
I got weapons of sharpness and then forged all the artifacts I could.

This got me to 6 VPs I think and I knew my next move should trigger a global war vs. me so I had to plan well and pick up courage to give the "go" command.
I decided to strike at Midgard+Utgard 1st. Midgard b/c I noticed him massing armies on our border and Utgard b/c I thought I'd get two easy VPs from him (his + Atlantis). Attacking Migard was actually a defensive move: attack 1st and have him on the defense instead of the other way around.

The attack on Utgard failed to yield the expected result since Fungalreason has put up a spectacular defense of his VP. However, the attack on Midgard was more successful than expected and I ended up taking the 8th VP from him (Mictlan) and aiming for 9th+10th (Midgard+Atlantis).

My highlights and notes from this game
- Mobility rocks. All mobile armies are invaluable.
- I was shocked when my scouts reported an evil twin of my pretender - Midgard's green dragon.
- As it happens our dragons never faced off.
- Dust to Dust, Thaum. 2 (the highest I got), killing badass undead thugs. You gotta love (or hate) that spell.
- Utgard defense of his VP. I lost two major battles to him. Kudos man, that was a great show of resilience!
- Losing the Ankh to Utgard :(
- Thinking Midgard is Executor's and Pan GFSnl. Yeah, I suck at guessing.
- Going from no wars to a three fronted war in just one turn due to Pythium's unexpected weak arsed punch ;)
- And yeah, I noticed Gath attacking Pythium and thinking WTF. The guy probably has good reason to attack Pyth knowing that the game is about to be over.
- Predicting exactly when Pan will strike at me and preparing a sufficient counter offensive to break his charge. I actually attacked him on the exact same turn he attacked me.
- Raptor clan. I have a new measure of respect for this clan after this game. Esp. Raven guard and Harab elder.

Short PR:
I'll be soon starting two new game:
- House of Chains, non newb game, diplo allowed, WH mods + CBM1.94

- YARG5, EA RAND game.

PM me if you want to reserve a spot in one, or two of them.

[danbo]

Executor, I think you are not in the position to decide who fits these games and who doesn't. You along with Midgard let the Giant grow and began to stale when the time of great war has come. And now you blame me. And anyway couple of poor provinces I took from you didn't prevent you from trying to stop Caelum.

As for the Gath. First, I picked up Gath third time in a row in RAND games, it's a true miracle:) But the game itself was rather boring only due to my position. Tough neutrals around my capital made my expansion slow. Then I met Marignong in the battlefield and the victory was easy because Marignon didn't even had a chance against my blessed fire-resistant troops. Then I was only sitting on the fence watching graphs of Caelum grow and wondering when my only neighbours Pythium and Caelum will finally begin to oppose the obvious leader.

But I think nothing could be done as the strategy and tactics of our winner were truly brilliant. Congratulations, WL!

[Executor]

Seriously? I let the giant grow? I had no border with Caelum until he attacked Arco and that was not that many turns before I attack him. I'm pretty sure I wasn't in a position to *stop* him from getting too big.

I staled due to RL problems, I did ask Amhazir for extensions but I don't think he got them in time. Doesn't matter in the least.
I'm not blaming you for losing, like I said I doubt we could have stopped Caelum.

However,

As for those couple of poor provinces; I gave you at least several turns to *stop* attacking me before I gave up. I even let you take a fort with no opposition, but you didn't stop. Instead you kept going at me and massing troops on my border. So excuse me but how don't a fort down, several (8-10 I think) of my provinces gone and several hundreds troops on my border stop me from trying to stop Caelum? Don't answer that, it's a rhetorical question...

[danbo]

Executor, while I was in war with Marignon, Ctis and you decided it's a good idea to steal fruits of my victory from me and occupied some of Marignon lands. And in my terms such actions are translated as "I'm hostile towards you". Actually I was going to attack Ctis after Marignon but you cut me access with your hydras, killing lots of my men in the process, it was another casus belli.

And besides, I didn't know that you are going to attack Caelum, instead you have a couple of stales. I understand that you had reasons for that but it doesn't change much. When I became aware of the fact you're in war with Caelum, i didn't care much already, Midgard had series of stales and was already crushed, nothing could be done.

To sum up, my logic was to hope that Midgard would put up a better resistance and in the process attack passive nation that was somewhat hostile against me and didn't performed very well overall.

P.S. And Executor, I've just realised that I was in somewhat similar situation in YARG3. In that game it seemed that I was only person to detect your potential from the early on. But no one helped me and instead Shinuyama guy stabbed me in the back. I was very very much frustrated by this, but didn't accused Shinuyama leader of anything. It's beauty of the RAND games that we can have such dramatic and unpredictable situations. So, I'm looking forward to take part in such games it the future.

[Executor]

I didn't steal Marginon provinces, I took former C'tis provinces before Pangaea did. In the end I had maybe 2 or 3 Marginon provinces and probably 3 C'tis ones. You could have easily stopped with retaking Marg provinces if you wanted to. I made no attempts to stop you from retaking them.
As for my hostile actions, I never kept any troops next to your border and didn't move against Marginon until he turned AI and C'tis started attacking him too. If you consider that hostile, fine, I would too, maybe, if someone grabbed a few province from under my nose, but that's nothing anyone else wouldn't have done, probably including you too. And it's definitely not something worth making that nation your arch nemesis and forsaking the game cause of it as you seem to have done.

And how could you not see me moving to attack Caelum, because I moved every single unit and commander I had to the Caelum border when you attacked me, literately. You can clearly see my research graph at a standstill indicating that. You can also see me losing provinces to Caelum as soon as I attacked him. In fact, the first thing I did after my two stales was attack a single province (the only one I could at that time) to declare to all the other nation and especially Midgard that I'm going after Caelum. Caelums counteractions showed pretty clearly we were in war.

And by the time you noticed Midgard stale you didn't care anymore? Dude, that was at least 5 turns in. How could you not notice me being in war with Caelum for 5 turns. Midgards first stale was on turn 41! And it was a single stale at that point in no way indicating he had given up or anything.

You could have simply taken back what you considered yours (and I would have been fine with that) and let me try and deal with Caelum. Instead you took back former Marg provinces, and I didn't react, than you took C'tis provinces, and I didn't react, than you took a couple of mine provinces, with still no reaction from me, until you finally stormed one of my forts.
So if you though I was hostile I'm pretty sure I disproved that by letting you take all those provinces from me.

Danbo, what you did in YARG 3 didn't make much sense either to be honest.
You attacked me at about turn 15, as soon as I made a move against TC. So we ended up in a 30 turn war because we still had a turtled TC between the two of us. Than you proceeded and attacked whoever was sought from you too, Arco I think, and I have no idea why. By the time Shiny attacked you were already losing the war badly. The only effect Shiny had was to grab provinces from me.

I'm not judging you play-style but I find it somewhat erratic. I can't explain your action in this or the previous YARG. Not the behavior you'd expect in a no diplo game. What C'tis, Vanheim, Svarogia and Shiny did in YARG 3 is how people should play these types of games.

And for the record, I think there is a general consensus that whenever you see an AI nation that usually translates into attack on sight before other get a change to grab *free* provinces before you. So what I did is hardly a big deal. It's one of the downsides of people turning AI.

[Executor]

BTW, WL, you really need to do have fixed start next time. The random starts in this game were a disaster. A few nations had remarkably good starting position with not a single nation next to them anywhere near, and quite a few of us were clustered on top of each others. I had 3 neighbors by turn 3 and ran out of expansion space by turn 10, when I already met Atlantis, Agartha, TC, Midgard, Pangaea, Arco and Ulm, and Ulm TC and Agartha were all only two provinces away from my capital.:)

P.S. I guess I should keep my mouth shut and not tell you how to play, though I guess I make for a pretty good sensei!:D

[WraithLord]

I didn't steal Marginon provinces, I took former C'tis provinces before Pangaea did. In the end I had maybe 2 or 3 Marginon provinces and probably 3 C'tis ones. You could have easily stopped with retaking Marg provinces if you wanted to. I made no attempts to stop you from retaking them.
As for my hostile actions, I never kept any troops next to your border and didn't move against Marginon until he turned AI and C'tis started attacking him too. If you consider that hostile, fine, I would too, maybe, if someone grabbed a few province from under my nose, but that's nothing anyone else wouldn't have done, probably including you too. And it's definitely not something worth making that nation your arch nemesis and forsaking the game cause of it as you seem to have done.




Executor, in YARG3 (see link (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showpost.php?p=807127&postcount=250)) both me and Eriu would have attacked and maybe stopped you had it not been for a silly conflict like me taking one or two of his spoils of war.
In YARG games every action that can seem hostile must be taken with utmost care if you don't want to provoke war.
Pride and feelings have a lot to do with it. When I went after Eriu it was emotion only and I knew I'm handing you the game there and then.

[WraithLord]

BTW, WL, you really need to do have fixed start next time. The random starts in this game were a disaster. A few nations had remarkably good starting position with not a single nation next to them anywhere near, and quite a few of us were clustered on top of each others. I had 3 neighbors by turn 3 and ran out of expansion space by turn 10, when I already met Atlantis, Agartha, TC, Midgard, Pangaea, Arco and Ulm, and Ulm TC and Agartha were all only two provinces away from my capital.:)

P.S. I guess I should keep my mouth shut and not tell you how to play, though I guess I make for a pretty good sensei!:D

Point taken. Is there a fixed start Orania map you know of?

[Executor]

I didn't steal Marginon provinces, I took former C'tis provinces before Pangaea did. In the end I had maybe 2 or 3 Marginon provinces and probably 3 C'tis ones. You could have easily stopped with retaking Marg provinces if you wanted to. I made no attempts to stop you from retaking them.
As for my hostile actions, I never kept any troops next to your border and didn't move against Marginon until he turned AI and C'tis started attacking him too. If you consider that hostile, fine, I would too, maybe, if someone grabbed a few province from under my nose, but that's nothing anyone else wouldn't have done, probably including you too. And it's definitely not something worth making that nation your arch nemesis and forsaking the game cause of it as you seem to have done.




Executor, in YARG3 (see link (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showpost.php?p=807127&postcount=250)) both me and Eriu would have attacked and maybe stopped you had it not been for a silly conflict like me taking one or two of his spoils of war.
In YARG games every action that can seem hostile must be taken with utmost care if you don't want to provoke war.
Pride and feelings have a lot to do with it. When I went after Eriu it was emotion only and I knew I'm handing you the game there and then.

Of course, I completely agree. And forgive me since I don't intend to insult anyone, but that kind of behavior is kind of petty. If someone does something I consider worth revenge I'm not going to do it if it means forfeiting the game, and considerably lowering everyone else chances if not completely, unless I'm either already in war with everyone (like the situation in Garden of the Moon if you remember) or if it's a RP like game and I have thematic reasons.
Don't get me wrong, I love going on a rampage and getting my revenge for being backstabbed, etc, but nothing remotely dramatic happened here. I took a few provinces Pangae would have taken had I not. And I made no attempt to retaliate even when I lost more than twice as much in return.

Not that I have anything against what Danbo did, I just find it strange that he should chose to attack once I got back in the game and started attacking you. It's a bit of an overreaction especially as he was waiting for someone to stop you, namely and that being me.

Not sure about the map, but I can make one with fixed starts if you'd like, just as soon as you know the number of players in it.

[WraithLord]

I agree. Pettiness is unwanted, but sometimes it creeps on you and you let your self indulge in it. Not ideal, but there you have it.

Re. the sensible course of action. No argument here. It's just that my point is that in RAND kind of game you can't depend on the other player doing what you consider to be the sensible action.

Clearly from "sensible" PoV you did the right thing and Gath got in the way and his intervention seems completely irrational. But the deeper you dig into the matter the less clear cut things may seem.

Thank you for your generous offer to add fixed starts! If it's ok w/ you I'll take you on it when the times come.

[Executor]

I agree. Pettiness is unwanted, but sometimes it creeps on you and you let your self indulge in it. Not ideal, but there you have it.

Re. the sensible course of action. No argument here. It's just that my point is that in RAND kind of game you can't depend on the other player doing what you consider to be the sensible action.

Clearly from "sensible" PoV you did the right thing and Gath got in the way and his intervention seems completely irrational. But the deeper you dig into the matter the less clear cut things may seem.

Thank you for your generous offer to add fixed starts! If it's ok w/ you I'll take you on it when the times come.

Sure!

Sorry Danbo if I insulted you, WL summed it up pretty nice here. It is as he says, it seemed pretty irrational to me, but I'm sure it can be said about all of us at some point.

[danbo]

No offence taken, Executor. Actually I'm not offended if someone thinks my actions are irrational or just plain stupid. I only defended my right to take part in these type of games, which I love. That's all.

Cheers, I think in the next game I won't disappoint you:)

P.S. Yes, in the YARG3 I attacked another nation while alrealdy losing badly to you. It might seem irrational but it has simple explanation. I ran out of money and my troops started to desert. And it actually worked, I defeated that nation and improved my finances for some time.

[sansanjuan]

Ex
On a related note as far as what were they thinking..
I made a failed attempt to draw Midgard into your lands while you we're seiging my cap. I started raiding on both sides of the Midgard/ Pyth border hoping Midgard would drop the dragon on my reading party at the same time you hit it. With no diplomacy there was some (though small) chance of an "entanglement" misunderstandings near your cap. It came to naught but thought I'd bring it up.
ssj

[Executor]

Ex
On a related note as far as what were they thinking..
I made a failed attempt to draw Midgard into your lands while you we're seiging my cap. I started raiding on both sides of the Midgard/ Pyth border hoping Midgard would drop the dragon on my reading party at the same time you hit it. With no diplomacy there was some (though small) chance of an "entanglement" misunderstandings near your cap. It came to naught but thought I'd bring it up.
ssj

Heh, I'm quite familiar with what you tried to do. I did the same thing in some other no diplo game, where I managed to draw two more nations into conflict and there was no way I'd fall for it. :)
I let Midgard retake his and waited a few turns, I think, before I retook mine, just in case.

Danbo, yeah, I was a bit of an ars to say that. I was being sarcastic but to be honest not completly, sorry.
Regarding YARG 3, I'm glad it worked as I ended up with a couple of more provinces!:D