Legends - EA, no diplo, CBM 1.92, limited magic - Samhain/Fomoria wins!

[Valerius]

Do you love SCs and late game magic? Then this isn't the game for you. ;) But if you like moving your national armies around without fear of master enslave or rain of stones, if you like calling down thunderstrikes and gifts from heaven, if you like gearing out thugs and summoning monsters - in short if your favorite part of the game is the midgame then this might be just what you're looking for.

This is the latest in a series of games in which the central theme is to limit magic to midgame levels. The most recent, Faded Magic, is still running. Faded Magic was the first of these games to run under CBM 1.92 instead of 1.6. This game will be the first time one takes place in the EA instead of MA.


Game summary

* CBM 1.92 with magic limited to level 6 (with a few exceptions - see change log). Blood magic also nerfed (but still quite usable IMO).

* One exception to the level 6 max magic rule is that monsters (defined as creatures without full slots) also make the cut. Dragons have also been added as a summon.

* Limited changes made to nations/summons to reflect unusual settings (see change log).


Settings

Age: EA
Players: Approx. 8
Diplomacy: None
Banned nations: all water nations
Hosting: llamaserver
Hosting interval: 24 hours up to turn 20, 48 hours up to turn 40, 72 hours from then on
Mods: modified version of CBM 1.92 (attached to post)
Map: Plane of Rusty Nails with 9 fixed starts
HoF: 15
Research: Easy (this is an important one - while the hosting schedule is relaxed, we will be getting to the action very quickly)
All other settings default
Exploits: Don't use them.

Also: Please do not go AI! Lost all your forts and having nothing left but an indie commander and some militia? Please still play it to the end. Thanks!


Player Roster

ghoul31 - Hinnom
HoleyDooley - Ermor
KeithZ - Sauromatia
Ossa - Ulm
Samhain - Fomoria
shard - Lanka
shonuf/Larz (as of turn 24) - Caelum
tratorix - Abysia
Valerius - TNN


Change log

Nation changes
--------------

Hinnom:
Summon Se'irim - 42 slaves
Summon Shedim - 32 slaves
Acha do not have healing

Jotun:
skratti - +1 enc in werewolf form

Pan:
No maenad spawning; summon maenad spell (10/1 N gem)
No carrion centaur/lady/lord; national version of construct manikin (10/3 N gems)
Gorgon - removed
One of the free spawn nations, was initially banned and later allowed in with the changes above. I played them two games ago and chose a gorgon pretender who IMO is OP for these settings (I stopped using her midgame because of this) so she's out as well.

Lanka:
Summon Dakini - 100 slaves

Agartha:
No darkness on PD
Paths of the Deep 5 --> 7 gems

Eriu:
Sidhe Lord - no autoentangle

Van:
Vanjarl 240 --> 280 gold



Summons
-------

Zmey
Prot decreased by 4 points to 18 and misc slots from 3 to 2 (I know usually all three slots aren't used but the increased cost of the lychantropos' amulet may change this). Importantly, the zmey now has map move 2, not 3.

Ettin
Cost increased to 20 gems and level to 6.

Wendigo
Wendigo has fixed magic at W2D2 and autocasts soul vortex. Development speed is greatly increased: size 2 the first turn, size 3 (with 50 HP) the second turn, and final size of 4 (and 71 HP) the following turn.

Tartarian Monstrum
Two level two randoms and two misc slots (as well as a head slot) mean they provide the best magic diversity around. High HP and flight and the chance of A/S magic also means they can fulfill a raiding role. Don't have shattered soul or come with afflictions.

Dragons
Combat spellcasters and raiders. They have level 3 F/W/N magic, base MR of 20, and head + 2 misc slots. The fire dragon is the best offensively: with a reinvig item, skull of fire and phoenix power he's a falling fires machine. The frost dragon is amphibious and the forest dragon has recuperation.

Iron Dragon
Is now a commander summon (with 2 misc slots) and receives an additional claw attack. Many resistances out-of-the-box but still has horrible MR and limited (without buffs/gear) damage potential.



Spell changes
-------------

No globals
No reason to hoard gems. Provinces = power so use your gems to summon and forge so you can get more provinces.

Restore Soul - 10 gems
Normally this is for tarts - here it's basically to avoid umbral thugs being too cheap.

Darkness - D5 / 5 gems
Hard to cast normally, even harder to cast here.

Iron Bane - E5 / 5 gems
More difficult to cast and much more expensive

Leprosy - 8 --> 15 gems, MRN easily
Afflictions are serious business here without GoH, chalice or even faery queens.

Horror Mark - costs 1 gem
Don't like this spell and don't want people who go with SC pretenders to have them sidelined that easily.

Communion Master/Slave - increase fatigue 20-->30
No rain of stones makes life a lot safer for communions. Bit of an increase in fatigue to offset this.

Transformation - level 7 spell but stays in
A level 7 spell that I'm just keeping in for the fun of it.

Weapons Sharpness - level 7 spell but stays in with aoe 2
A powerful level 7 spell that I'm deliberately leaving in since I think it has an important role to play against thugs and monsters. AOE much smaller, though.

Everything below here is blood nerfs because I think it's a good idea (something to keep in mind is that given the limited research you won't have much of an opportunity cost for blood hunting - combine that with growth scales and blood will be a powerhouse even with some of these cost increases and spell eliminations).

Sabbath Master/Slave - fat 100, costs 1 slave

Rain of Toads - 20 slaves / level 6

Send Lesser Horror - 15 slaves

Bind Succubus - 66 --> 55 slaves (ok, this price is actually decreased as I don't know why this unit is that expensive)

Ritual of the Five Gates - 24 --> 30 slaves

Blood rite, blood rain, bloodletting, hellbind heart, bind ice devil, infernal disease - removed



Magic item changes
------------------

No unique items

Bane venom charm - 15 gems
Afflictions are serious business here without GoH, chalice or even faery queens.

Lychantropos' amulet - 10 gems
5N is too cheap when you consider the aggravation this causes with commanders picking it up. Also, this makes it less of a no-brainer for zmeys.

Soul contract and lifelong protection removed.



Misc changes
------------

Removed bugged ettin site


Note to anyone downloading the no indie Fivelands maps: the 5lands3.zip file has the same .map that is on the llamaserver. The earlier two zip files had an error in that province 65 was not marked as being NI.

[Austen]

I'm intrigued... and I've been wantnig to play with Valerius again... put me down for Helheim...

[Valerius]

Nice to play with you again! And I'm glad you stuck in there after feeling kind of down with how things went in Game of Dorian. Obviously things have started clicking since I see you're now winning games. Best of all, it appears you're a convert to the glamour nation fan club. :) Fun nations, aren't they (and strong as well in 1.92 - especially the bloodthirsty ones of Van/Hel)?

[Austen]

trying to play this mod as Niefel crashes when I go to recruitment saying it can't find worth heroes..

[Valerius]

Hold on, I'll take a look now. I think somehow I messed up some paths when building test mods and it looks like that carried over into this mod.

[Austen]

think I'm going to go to bed actually...will check it out tomorrow... thinking about switching off Helheim.. these changes make it feel more like a weaker TNN... need to dink around some more.. not sure my normal approach works as well anyway..

[Valerius]

Mod has been updated and should fix the missing graphic problem. Same filename but in the mod list it will have v2 at the end of the name rather than v1.

Does Helheim feel weaker because of the overall changes or just from the Vanjarl price increase? In any case, I'll keep you with Helheim for now (though I think Niefel will be a terror, skratti encumbrance increase or not).

[HoleyDooley]

I'm in..nation TBA.

HD

[Valerius]

Welcome!

[Valerius]

For anyone reading this and wondering WTF to make of these rules I thought I'd mention a few things.

First, evo. magic has done quite well in these games. Massed magma eruption is ... very good. Even with the bump in fatigue, communions still have huge potential - and without the risk of rain of stones you'd face in a normal game. Having said that, this is the first game to be played in the thug/SC rich EA and I expect those units will play a significant role here.

Second, keep in mind the unique attributes of your nation and how the limited magic affects their utility.

For instance, in Faded Magic I'm playing Caelum. Flight is, of course, a great advantage. And with these rules it synergizes really nicely with the large number of flying monster summons (zmey, rocs, monstrums, dragons). Slap some flying boots on a full slot thug or two and perhaps some particularly good indie mages and you've got an incredibly mobile army. And - this is the best part - you can't be nuked by flames from the sky or spammed with remote assassinations (they can hit you with some low level remote attacks but these are manageable).

Or let's take Pan. Their trademark is recuperation. And this is a game without GoH, the chalice or even faerie queens. Want to know one of the reasons I bumped up the price of bane venom charms? Because a couple of games ago I holed up in my forts, spamming maenads, while bane venom charms afflicted the besiegers. Call it C'tis lite. :p As an aside, while many would consider the removal of maenad free spawn a nerf, one upside is that it means you can sneak your Pans around without having them risk broadcasting their location.

Talking about blood for a moment, I obviously have some nerfs to blood magic in here but I think blood nations are still quite playable. And while the limited magic removes many endgame strategies blood sac nations still have the possibility of going for dom kills.

So think along those lines in terms of choosing a nation/strategy.

[ghoul31]

Hinnom

[shonuf]

Caelum please.

[Ossa]

I'd like to join - I'll choose a nation later this evening.

[Valerius]

Welcome everyone!

That brings us to 9 players. Guess I'll hold it open a bit longer to see if we can get an even 10, though that makes for a large game by my standards. ;)

[tratorix]

Kailasa please.

[Ossa]

I'll take Ulm

[Austen]

Ya.. think I will move into Nief.. will comment on Helheim thing later..

[Valerius]

Welcome, tratorix! Ossa and Austen, nation assignments have been updated.

I'll start searching for a map. Since we ended up with 10 players I'll be looking for something at the 12 prov/player end of the spectrum rather than 15. Map suggestions are of course welcome. Some water is nice to break up the map and let amphibious/sailing nations use those aspects of their nation but of course not too much.

[HoleyDooley]

Ermor thanks.

[Valerius]

Ok, all nations have been chosen. Of course if anyone wants to change that's no problem.

I'll have the game setup on the server tomorrow.

Just a reminder to select easy research when testing.

And of course if anyone thinks they've found a bug please let me know.

[Valerius]

The game is ready for pretenders. The average number of provinces/player is higher than I had in mind but I'm inclined to go with Plane of Rusty Nails (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=45271) for a map because Calahan recently created a version with 10 fixed land starts and 1 water start. Since we are all land nations the water start should just be ignored.

You can find the map (and elmokki's other maps) here (http://koti.kapsi.fi/~elmokki/dom3/maps/). Note that Calahan didn't post the .map file so the starts would be a surprise so when you download the map you won't see those start locations.

[Valerius]

And just a reminder that when creating your pretender you only want the game mod active - not CBM (since the game mod includes a modified version of CBM).

[shonuf]

Hey,

Just tried to submit my pretender but got this:


I received a pretender file from you, but unfortunately your pretender file is for Early Age Caelum, while the game 'Legends' is set in the Middle Age. Please try again with a pretender for the Middle Age.

Details of your e-mail:
Subject: Legends
Sent at: Tue, 4 Sep 2012 22:13:48 +0200
Attachment: early_caelum_8.2h

[Ossa]

same here

[Valerius]

Sorry about that; I guess I'm just used to playing all these low magic games in the MA. ;) Era has now been changed to EA.

[Austen]

OK.. I ended up rolling TC.. which is clearly going to end in disaster.. but there it is... I'm in now in any case..

Re: Helheim, I just think that with the disappearance of their lategame strengths, compounded with the blood and Van nerfs, there's not much reason to play them when TNN is in the game... they become pretty inferior in most ways..

Honestly, I can't think of a game setup that would be more in favor of TNN.. all of their strengths are kept completely intact (and many are accentuated by the easy research) while all their endgame deficiencies are washed away. Nerfing the midgame blood just makes it even more pronounced.

I explored Nief, but I have never played them and I couldn't make a build that emphasized the things I think are likely to be important and still have any sort of economy. In my tests, I just couldn't ever solve the money problems. Prob a me problem, but that I couldn't solve it..

[Valerius]

Honestly, I can't think of a game setup that would be more in favor of TNN.. all of their strengths are kept completely intact (and many are accentuated by the easy research) while all their endgame deficiencies are washed away.

I agree completely that TNN's time is the mid-game. All I can say is the game certainly wasn't designed to favor my nation. I've run several of these low magic games and played Eriu, Van, Pan, Caelum and now TNN which, if you're familiar with my nation choices, is actually less TNN/Eriu/glamour than is typical for me. ;)

Are you interested in playing TNN? If so, I could choose a different nation (probably Van, Hel or Pan).


I explored Nief, but I have never played them and I couldn't make a build that emphasized the things I think are likely to be important and still have any sort of economy. In my tests, I just couldn't ever solve the money problems. Prob a me problem, but that I couldn't solve it..

I think the strength of Niefel isn't the Niefel Jarls but blood magic and skratti. So in this game, demon troops and reverse communioned skratti to crush people with brute force. Scales with maybe a light bless for the Jarls?

[Austen]

[QUOTE=Valerius;810709
I agree completely that TNN's time is the mid-game. All I can say is the game certainly wasn't designed to favor my nation. I've run several of these low magic games and played Eriu, Van, Pan, Caelum and now TNN which, if you're familiar with my nation choices, is actually less TNN/Eriu/glamour than is typical for me. ;)

Are you interested in playing TNN? If so, I could choose a different nation (probably Van, Hel or Pan).[/QUOTE]

I wasn't trying to imply that you were putting in the fix and I know you love some TNN ;) By all means, you should play them..

I was just bringing these things up regarding making Helheim/Vanheim mostly superfluous... there's just no reason to play them instead of TNN in this setup...

[Valerius]

Hmm, well it may certainly be the case that under these settings TNN wins the battle for best glamour nation but looking at it in a larger sense are Van/Hel competitive under these settings? Because that's really what I'm aiming for - that every nation has a chance.

And I think the key question for those two is whether blood is a viable option. When I played Van the blood summon prices were *really* high (ex. 50 slaves for ritual of the five gates). But I was still able to get good mileage out of blood magic on the battlefield, in particular bloodletting (which I removed from the next game as being too much for these settings).

Here I've only bumped up ritual of the five gates and a few national summons in cost so considering there's little opportunity cost in lost research to blood hunting like crazy I think it should be quite possible to mass blood troop summons. And of course you can reverse communion thugs just like Niefel.

If there were something I'd change it would probably be the cost increase to Vanjarls since I was kind of on the fence about that anyway.

[tratorix]

Changed my nation pick to Abysia and submitted my pretender.

[Valerius]

Great, I heard back from Ossa as well and he'll have his pretender in tonight, which just leaves shard. I know he's interested in playing but I'm not sure if he's around the forum much so I'm still waiting to hear from him.


Darn it, Austen. I have this bad habit of switching my nation repeatedly before a game begins. This time around I was quite good as I had a TNN build I really wanted to play and I was sticking with it. But then you got me thinking about Helheim. I've never played them before and one reason (aside from the fact I don't like D magic much ;)) is that I really like the first round, no booster required, fog warriors casters the other glamour nations have. So, I'm more likely to play Helheim under these settings than otherwise.

In short, I'm switching to Helheim and TNN is available.

Which may be a good thing anyway since we seem a bit light on blood nations - perhaps because a lot of people feel they're overnerfed. I don't think they are but this way I'll get to see firsthand. :p

[KeithZ]

After some test yesterday, I want to switch to Sauro.
Valerius，could you help me delete the Yomi pretender I have submited?

[Austen]

Uhhh... I may move into TNN... maybe turn off autostart? I need to make/test a build.. will do it no later than tomorrow.

[Valerius]

After some test yesterday, I want to switch to Sauro.
Valerius，could you help me delete the Yomi pretender I have submited?

Sure, Yomi pretender is deleted.

Uhhh... I may move into TNN... maybe turn off autostart? I need to make/test a build.. will do it no later than tomorrow.

Ok, I'll go ahead and delete TC as well. If you decide to stick with them then just resend.

I already have autostart off in order to avoid false starts.

[shard]

Hi thanks for the direct e-mail valerius
Been travelling on a few continents too many and I forgot my login/pw - but managed to log in thanks to the link.

I'm going to try a few test builds and may have another look at my nation pick so please bear with me for a bit longer ><

[Valerius]

I'm going to try a few test builds and may have another look at my nation pick so please bear with me for a bit longer ><

Sure, no problem.


I sent in a pretender for Helheim but while it's nice being able to summon monstrums with my national mages I'm finding I miss those A3/4s for storm casting and thunderstriking. So, I'm thinking of switching to Van if shard doesn't want them (not sure which other nations he's considering) or back to TNN if Austen doesn't want them. But my main thing is I don't want to hold up the game so whatever Austen and shard decide on I'll work around that and take what's left of the glamour nations or Pan. So please send in whatever pretenders you decide on and I'll have four pretenders ready to go depending on what nations are left.


Those of you who have had your pretenders in for a while, thanks for your patience - we'll get this started soon! :)

[Austen]

OK.. uploaded TNN...

[Austen]

I hate to be the problem child here, but I think I am going to need to sit this game out. My wife is in the hospital and things aren't going well and I'm starting a new job and I don't think it makes much sense for me to start any new games right now.

I'm really sorry for being such a nuisance, but I didn't foresee these events when I signed up. I think it prob makes more sense for me to step down now before the game starts than to be a drag on the whole game.

Again, I'm really sorry :(

[Valerius]

No worries; RL always takes precedence. Best wishes to your wife, I hope she feels better soon (and good luck on the new job as well of course).

[Valerius]

Ok guys, I see Bullock uploaded a 9 fixed start location version of Plane of Rusty Nails for the Silence is Golden game. In order to get things started I'm going to go with this version of the map. You can see the start locations here (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=49056).

I'll have my TNN pretender uploaded shortly and start the game.

[parone]

god i wish i could get in on this. alas, im afraid i'd mess it all up. valerius, i hope you will put together a game like this this winter. i'd love to get in.

good luck all. i hate the late game!

[Valerius]

I'm not much of a fan of the late game myself, partly because of the micro (which these settings don't help with) and partly because I don't find SCs and late game magic as much fun as the midgame stuff.

I'm sure I'll admin more of these. Early winter sounds about right - unless I get knocked out of this early, then it will be much sooner. :p

[Valerius]

The game has begun! I hope everyone enjoys it. :)

Please remember that there is no diplomacy - either in game or out of it. So no NAPs, trading, etc. You'll have to decide the best course of action for your nation based on the graphs and your scouting reports.

Also, please fight it out to the end. And keep in mind that with the limited magic comebacks from bad situations are certainly possible. If, after being in a bad position, you claw your way back to be equal with another nation in gems/gold you won't find yourself facing an insurmountable research lead or a game winning global you can do nothing about. Sure, if your opponent has had it easier he'll have more forces, which will give him an initial advantage, but if you can pull off a win or two to equalize things then going forward you're on equal terms.

[Valerius]

*%$#@! I made a major mistake and didn't set the game to easy research. I just realized now when I was updating the player roster and saw the game settings. Really sorry about this, but unless everyone is ok with continuing I think we'll need to restart since I expect people chose their pretenders builds based on easy research.

Please let me know your opinions.

[Samhain]

I'm Ok either way. But, I agree we should restart with the settings everyone expected and planned for. And, certainly at this stage, it's no big deal.

[HoleyDooley]

Yeah a restart is no big problem at turn 1.

[shard]

Im good with it too; do we have to resend our pretenders?

[Valerius]

I agree with all of you that a restart is best. I'm going to go ahead and do that. I don't think (hope) we'll need to resend pretenders.

After this false start I also took a look at the start locations and I think a few of them are definitely better than others so I'm going to take a look at that and maybe switch them around a bit and also open recruitment again in case we can get a 10th person before I get around to switching the start locations.

[Valerius]

Ok, game is restarted and fortunately kept our pretenders.

I'm taking a look at the start locations now and have reopened recruitment in case we can get another player in the next few hours.

[HoleyDooley]

I have sent a PM to parone to join the game. Sad to see Austen have to pull out (he will resurface elsewhere in his Helheim disguise), but parone has already indicated he would like to join this game, only it would screw with the numbers.

Parone is always a hoot to play with.

HD

[Valerius]

That would be great! I misunderstood his post to mean he wanted to get more experience before trying an experimental game like this - if his only concern was messing with the number of players I would have encouraged him to join immediately since it would have brought us back up to 10.

I'll stop advertising for another player until we hear back from him.

[HoleyDooley]

Damn, maybe parone is too busy to get into another game right now.

[Valerius]

Maybe so. I'll wait another 12 hours and then I think we need to get started. I'll either use Bullock's 9 starts for Plane of Rusty Nails or the alternative starts shown in the JPEG attached to the first post (this JPEG also shows Bullock's starts [the numbers - not the red dots]). My concern was that start position 7, in particular, on Bullock's map has a large amount of uncontested territory. Any opinions on this?

[Valerius]

Ok, no word from parone so let's get this started with 9 players. I haven't heard any objections to the start locations I set so I'm going with my version of the map.

[Valerius]

I sent out a message on the server but wanted to also mention here that in order to avoid any mishaps please delete your .2h and .trn files from your savegame folder before saving your new turn file from the restart and working on your turn.

And thanks everyone for your patience!

[ghoul31]

just to remind people, this is a no diplomacy game

[Valerius]

Thanks, ghoul. I'll send out a reminder through the llamaserver as well since it seems someone (hopefully not more than one person) missed my comments in this thread.

[Samhain]

Valerius, it might be beneficial to some of us to describe exactly what you mean by "no diplomacy". To me that means no sending gold, magic items, gems, or blood slaves to other players; no NAPs with other players; and no providing in game information to other players. Others might have differing concepts of the term, though.

[Samhain]

Sorry. I just read the message from the admin. It looks like you covered it very well already.

[Valerius]

Samhain, you bring up a good point about sending items to other players. Of course there's no trading, but please also don't send gems/items/gold to another player as your last act before being eliminated. Use everything you've got to defeat your attacker(s).

If anyone has any questions about the no diplo aspect of the game please let me know.

[Ossa]

My fault, sorry, I saved the game file in the wrong folder.

I wont harrass anyone with words again when alone steel should speak.

[shard]

Hi im flying off again in a couple of hours and if the current turn 10 doesnt resolve yet I will likely need a 12 hr extension (depends on whether I can get internet at my transit hotel)

[shard]

Its fine, managed to get my turn in.
...Abysia on the other hand?

[Valerius]

Darn it. I noticed a minute before scheduled hosting that Aby's turn was missing and added some time to the clock. But it looks like tratorix staled anyway. He didn't mention being away for the weekend but I'm guessing he'll make the next turn. Regardless, I'll keep an eye on the server to make sure all turns are in.

[shard]

Racking up the airmiles again until next week; would like to request timer extension just in case!

[Valerius]

Sure, no problem. Next turn we'll be switching to 48 hour hosting anyway so I'll just go ahead and make the change now.

[Valerius]

Abysia has staled the past couple of turns and the last time tratorix logged in was a week ago. I don't know if/when he'll return so I'm going to see if I can find a sub.

[Valerius]

Ossa has volunteered to take on Aby's position since Ulm is almost finished. Is everyone ok with that?

If so, then I'll just look for someone to set Ulm AI, or maybe play this last turn, since based on province count at this point I think it's more important for Aby to have human leadership than Ulm.

[KeithZ]

I'm ok with that. Please let Ossa sub in and we can just continue

[Valerius]

We're having some bad luck here. Caelum staled last turn and looked to be on track for another stale and shonuf is staling in another game. So, I'll post for another sub... Sorry for the delays.

[Valerius]

Ok, we're back in business since Larz has agreed to take on leadership of Caelum.

Edit: I've added another 24 hours to the clock so he has a chance to familiarize himself with the position.

[shonuf]

Hi,

Just wanted to say I'm really sorry for dropping away like that. My laptop got drowned in beer, but I should have let you know I couldn't play. Sorry. And gl Lars.

[shard]

My turn file is 'corrupted'?
Tried getting a resent file but its still not working...

[Valerius]

I found a few threads on this (link (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=40777), link (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=44365) and link (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=43870)) but nothing definitive.

Maybe try deleting the savegame folder and then recreate it and download the turn again, try disabling all mods and quitting the game and then relaunching and trying to open the turn, and try resending the turn a couple more times, and maybe we'll switch to a different email address as well.

If none of that works then the only two options are to rollback or for you to stale (whomever you're at war with shouldn't take advantage of the stale and there should be essentially a one turn ceasefire) and hope one of those approaches fixes the problem. The first of those links indicated a rollback didn't solve the problem so I don't know if that will actually work (rollbacks do involve some risk since if people don't delete all their old files you can get all kinds of problems).

[Samhain]

Do you have another computer on which you can play Dominions3? If so, try and see if the problem is duplicated there. If you do not, try renaming the directories that your Dominions3 application files (and savedgame files if it is different) are in and re-install.

[shard]

Nothing has worked so far; I've tried loading up from a fresh install on another computer. Was there some update and I missed the memo..?

Its the only game I'm playing so it can't be the influence of a different game either. First time I've had this problem, other than the occasional 'Nagot git fel' crash. But this one I can't even load up the save game.

[Valerius]

Ok, let's try one other thing. Delete the game mod from your mods folder, make sure all mods are inactive, quit the game and download the game mod again. If that doesn't work then the next question is how do you feel about a rollback vs. a stale? If you'd like the rollback I'll need to get feedback from the other players. If you're ok with a stale then I'll message everyone asking them to basically ignore you this turn and not attack any of your provinces.

[Valerius]

Ok, shard has agreed to stale and hopefully next turn his, and everyone else's, turns will be ok. I just sent a message through the server but want to repeat here that anyone at war with Lanka should not launch attacks on them this turn since he can't respond. I will wait another 24 hours before hosting in case anyone needs to cancel attack orders.

[Valerius]

The game has (finally) hosted. Thanks everyone for your patience and especially thanks to shard for being willing to take a stale. Now I just really hope that you can open this turn file and it isn't corrupt...

[shard]

Just back from travelling again; I have managed to open the file ok.

However being deprived of knowing what happened last turn is a major blow; I am still trying to run the previous turn file since there were some pretty vital battles, sieges and troop movements where the intel will have a bearing on the rest of my game (youtube video anyone?)

[Samhain]

That's three stales in a row for Lanka.

[Larz]

I got the current turn in but won't be able to take another until Monday the 26th.

[Valerius]

That's three stales in a row for Lanka.

On the plus side, Sauro and I didn't stale, thus avoiding a triple triple stale. :p

More seriously, thanks for mentioning it. I'll update the "looking for a sub" thread now. This game has been kind of jinxed with needing so many subs.

Also, due to RL circumstances I have not been at all focused on Dom 3 and completely lost track of recent hosting times. If anyone is willing to be backup admin please let me know.


I got the current turn in but won't be able to take another until Monday the 26th.

No problem. Current turn will be delayed while we look for a sub and I'll add time as needed to the next turn.

[Valerius]

Thanks to Samhain for volunteering to be backup admin. I'll PM him the password now so either of us can handle any admin requests.

Unfortunately, we've had no luck yet in finding a sub for Lanka.

[Samhain]

Ok, we've reached 4 stales in a row from Lanka. I think it is safe to assume that Shard is not coming back. A sub seems unlikely as well. Is there any support or rejection to just setting that nation to AI?

Furthermore, I suggest we go ahead and set the hosting interval to 72 hours. It would just be a few turns ahead of schedule. And, if we can keep that pace, it will actually be quicker than what we've been doing. Perhaps getting back on a regular schedule will help TNN and Sauromatia, both commanded by players with a proven track record for finishing, get back in the game.

Please chime in with your yeas, nays, or whatever dudes.

[Valerius]

Thanks, Samhain. I think you're quite right about just setting the clock to 72 hours (I'll make the change now). And lets just let the game host on schedule unless someone actually asks for a delay.

And I *will* make sure to get my turns in on time. :p

As far as Lanka goes, should we set them AI or just force hosting when Lanka's is the only outstanding turn? Undoubtedly Lanka has a pile of gold, but we may be better off leaving shard's commands and formations in place rather than letting the AI kill itself off with poor decisions.

[Samhain]

I prefer AI to a leaderless myself, at least for a nation that still has forts and provinces to recruit new troops from.

I wouldn't count on any of the currently surviving units to have any useful scripting attached to them anyway.

[Valerius]

Ok, I'll change the sub request to an AI request and hopefully we'll get a volunteer.

[Valerius]

Thanks to AreaOfEffect for setting Lanka AI this turn. Also, and amazingly, my turn is in as well. I've PM'd KeithZ so hopefully he can get Sauro's turn in and we can get this game back on track.

[Larz]

I've got the current turn in but won't be able to take anther until January 1st. I hope everyone is having a good holiday (if you celebrate one).

[Valerius]

Yes, happy holidays all around. I just sent in my turn and the game hosted so I've postponed the next hosting to Jan. 2 to play it safe.

[Samhain]

Something seems to have gone terribly wrong with my turn file. The descriptions for my own provinces read like scouting reports. For example, I see "This province contains about three hostile units. The army consists of mainly Unmarked Champions..."

Worse still, the results of a major battle (in province 138) were reversed. While the battle shows my army quite victorious, the province is owned by my opponent and containing a large number of his units. My army, other than a handful of commanders who appeared in neighboring provinces, seems to have disappeared, however.

I have resent the turn and tried reading it on two separate computers. Does anyone have any experience with such an issue? I don't suppose there is anything that could be done to fix it.

[ghoul31]

Sometimes the replay doesn't show what really happened.

So you actually lost the battle.

[Samhain]

That's weird. I've never had that happen before. And, in my version, it was actually a pretty decisive victory.

Should I be concerned about my provinces descriptions reading like they are enemy provinces, or is that a known oddity as well?

[Larz]

Valerius has staled 3 of last 4 and about to stale again. Plus Sauro is about to stale for the 2nd time. Val mentioned some RL issues, do we need to find a sub?

[Samhain]

They've each got two hours. Fortunately, I'm in a position to monitor the turn this time. So, if either is about to stale I can add time to the clock.

But, I do feel if Valerius doesn't either get his turn in or request for a delay before the currently scheduled hosting we should advertise for a sub.

[Samhain]

Well, that's two stales in a row again for Tir Na N'Og. I emailed Valerius basically asking him if we could just sub his position out. The last time he staled twice in a row, 6 turns ago, I emailed him asking what his situation was. He didn't respond but managed to get the following two turns again before going AWOL again.

I'm not really good at handling these situations, in part because I have little tolerance for staling. This is why I don't normally admin. I only did in this case as a favor to Valerius.

I'm a busy guy myself but never let myself stale. I've managed to get turns in from a compound in the remote corner of South America over a pirated internet connection amidst rolling blackouts and a grueling work schedule. I bought the on-line distro once just to get my turn in on time using a borrowed computer. If I ever miss two turns in a row, I guarantee you that you should find a sub for me with no questions asked.

So, I guess I'm saying that I should not be the only arbiter in this case and needs some input from others, preferably others in the game and most preferably from Valerius, on how to proceed.

[Samhain]

I'm really not comfortable with making a unilateral decision at this point. So, as no one else is offering any suggestions, I guess we'll wait out the clock and see what happens. If we get another stale though for TNN, I will advertise the position.

[Larz]

Yeah, we need to fill the nation if Val is gone. It's too big to go AI or leave to stale out.

[Samhain]

A request for a sub for TNN has been posted.

[Samhain]

A sub has been found for TNN in Legends. Num will be taking over TNN. I think that it is appropriate to PM Num with any information that Valerius would have known to help him figure out his situation. Of course, that should be the limit of any discourse.

Also, now that Val is gone, we also lost our primary admin. If anyone else would like to share admin responsibilities, please PM me, and I will respond with the password. I see no problem with everyone being an admin if that is the result.

In the meantime, I'll add 72 hours to the clock to help Num get situated.

[Num]

Hey everyone,
It is a comeback from me, as I did not play Dom3 in the last two years.
I was looking for a new game in order to play Vanheim or TNN/Eriu, so your game is a good opportunity to follow a quite experienced player.
If anyone could summarize Legends history, especially what is concerning my nation, it would be great.
Anyhow I have just sent the turn 55 file...

[Num]

Hey all,
I have a technical problem : I cannot open the last turn because of the famous Nagot gick fel. First turn there is an edm sprite I guess.
I the mods folder I only have cbm 1.94, cbm 1.92legends and the cbm sprites with all the tga files in it (coming from the 1.94 if I remember right).
The Nagot gick fel message is exactly : Myloadmalloc: can't open ./mods/./diversity/zmey_3_0.tga
I have not such directory to get to the tga files
Some help would be very appreciated...

[Num]

Problem solved (well I hope so), this was only a question of directory folder, the 1.92legends need another folder for the edm sprites. It makes me me hate mods, but everything looks fine now.

[Larz]

I am probably not going to be able to get my next turn in on time. Can I get a 24 hour extension? Thanks.

[ghoul31]

It looks like this game is over. Does everyone agree?

[Num]

Well I do not know. I do not see the whole picture, I lack of scouts since I subbed Valerius. Graphs are not encouraging but frankly I do not know...

[Samhain]

I apologize to all the recent posters, but Larz in particular. I mistakenly thought that I had this thread set to be monitored but wasn't otherwise watching the forum.

But, I agree with ghoul31's sentiment, the outcome of this game seems certain at this point. Without diplomacy, it's very difficult to coordinate a halt on a major breakaway. Though, I'd like to hear from everyone, if that's possible.

[Larz]

Yeah, I don't think the result of this one is in doubt now. I'm OK with ending it.

[Ossa]

Ending is ok with me.

[Samhain]

Thanks for weighin in, Ossa. I've added 72 hours to the clock and PM'd KeithZ in case he filters out the messages from llamaserver. I don't want to act without a plurality, but certainly not without a vote from the player with second most proviinces.

I should say, while from my perspective it seems that the game is as well determined as any I've played, I don't know his position that well. And, if he would like to keep playing, I will fully support that decision. I have been, after all, having quite a bit of fun.

[Num]

I assume I cannot do anything enough powerful to counter the Fomors. Not enough scouts to see in the Caelum/Hinnom/Fomoria area, not enough gem to summon enough SC (I do not have any), not enough good troops, not enough kitted thugs...

I should have reacted faster when I come in around turn 55. Instead of that I lost valuable time to massive magic sites searching (I had very low gem income, and searching was only almost made for level 1-2 sites, with many virgin provinces).

I guess Valerius had just spend much time at intensive war before I take charge, so I lacked scouts, gems and SCs. I have some kitted thugs, not so many though. But I have many mages and many basic troops, not sure if it could be effective versus Fomoria.

Anyway I agree that the end is known.

[KeithZ]

Sorry for the delaying.

I'm ok to end this game as well. Congratulation, Samhain.

[Samhain]

Well, it's ended. I'll post a brief AAR with a couple of turn files and the final numbers from the score tables when I get the chance, possibly later today. If anyone else wants to post an AAR, I know I would appreciate it. It was quite a while before I found my first site with indie scouts. Coupled with no diplomacy, I was operating blind for much of the game.

[Num]

So congrats !

Edit : It would be nice to see some short aar from the beginning.

[Samhain]

Here's my AAR. Just to warn you, the turn numbers are in many cases just rough estimates.

Turns 46, 59, and 63 are attached - I think.

PRETENDER
Physical: Divine Serpent
Awakening: Imprisoned
Magic: F4E4N6
Dominion: 9
Scales: T3P3C1D1L3M1

While basically doubling the available magic paths this pretender provides a fantastic bless for both Unmarked and Kings. It's not so good for Morrigans. But, once I get Cons 6, a decent gem income and a competent team of forgers I plan to rely much more on my Kings. It's not like they'll be leading armies around to buff with Fog Warriors or support with Dance of the Morrigans in a limited magic game anyway.

As for scales, I always take Turmoil/Luck when I can. I just find it fun. Production 3 is nice as it gives a good boost to income, helps crank out more Unmarked to help with expansion, and lets me go lean later in the game then pump out large numbers of Firbolgs when and where I need them. Though, the latter advantage won't be as useful in a game without the high level battlefield buffs. Death should boost my death gem income and won't hurt my mages one bit.

Fomoria proved to be every bit the strong choice for the game conditions that I expected it to be. Recruitable SC's in a game without high end magic is a big plus. The map was big enough for Fomoria's mobility to be a factor but not so large for its capital dependency to be crippling. And, with neither a water nation nor Agartha on the map, I had a distinct advantage to taking the water. This advantage got a further boost as I happened to get one of the two caps bordering the larger of the two collections of water provinces.

TURN 12
Expansion goes well with a respectable but not too alarming 18 provinces with 3 forts either complete or nearly so. Unfortunately, in the second of two games I find myself bordering Lanka. And, as in the other game, I resolve to attack as soon as possible. Lanka is never an easy opponent. But, when I can, I prefer to get it started before it gets a blood economy going.

TURN 19
I see Caelum and Lanka, who is nearly at 30 provinces now, are already at war. I figure this presents me with an excellent opportunity to attack Lanka as well.

I also note that Lanka has entered the cluster of 8 water provinces. I've got Cons 4 and am researching Alt 3. Soon I'll kit out my first Fomorian King SC and send him under the waves. Hopefully he has better luck than my site searchers.

Meanwhile, Hinnom is gobbling up my neighbor to the East, Ulm. Hinnom is fielding an army of Melqarts, many already Hall of Famers, with an F4W4E10N6 bless. It's like having a biker gang move in next door. Yay.

I'd like to grab the fort Ulm put up two provinces from my cap, but don't really want to go start anything against Hinnom, not with that freakish army of Melqarts. Maybe someone else will take note that he has 25 provinces but only two forts and no research and start that one for me too.

TURN 20
Attacked Lanka.

TURN 30
Lanka is going down the tubes. Fortunately, he had a weak bless. In another 10 turns or so its over.

TURN 40
My armies don't rest. They march over the last of Lanka and right into Hinnom. At first, everything seems ok. At my cap, I start building an army of Morrigans and Nemedians while researching Alteration as quickly as possible. I have two Hero's with D4. So, either just needs a skull staff to cast Darkness, a real weakness for a Hinnom army without demon accompaniment.

TURN 42
Caelum's army doesn't take a break either. But, it travels right into Fomoria. That's just what I need, an opponent with a completely different profile to force me to go in two directions at the same time.

TURN 46
It's the big battle between my Forces of Darkness and the mass of Melqart's along with some assorted big, Hinnom backup troops. The replay shows a stunning Fomorian victory. The map and messages show a phenomenal defeat. Oh how I wish the replay was right and the evidence of my being massacred a bug rather than the other way around.

TURN 50+
I do my best to hold my ground, cloud trapezing Kings around trying to hold back both opponents where I can while I build a gang of SC's to counter Caelum and a new Army of Darkness to counter Hinnom. The latter will use kitted out Bane Lords this time as my Kings are too busy to hang around summoning Morrigans. Bane Lords also have the advantage of later getting shock protection gear for use against Caelum.

TURN 59
Two major victories. The best armies of both Caelum and Hinnom are defeated in the same turn. For Caelum, it had to have been crippling. For Hinnom, it was mortal. Dozens of kitted out Melqarts were dead.

TURN 60
With SC's coming out of my ears and loads of battle trophy gear, a period of rapid expansion over Caelum and Hinnom commences. I begin to consider opening a third front.

TURN 63
The game is over.

FINAL SCORE TABLES

Nation Provinces
Ermor 4
Ulm 0
Sauromatia 25
Abysia 1
Caelum 22
Tir na n'Og 24
Fomoria 65
Hinnom 11
Independents 3
Lanka 0

Nation Forts
Ermor 0
Ulm 0
Sauromatia 3
Abysia 2
Caelum 9
Tir na n'Og 6
Fomoria 13
Hinnom 1
Independents 0
Lanka 0

Nation Income
Ermor 82
Ulm 0
Sauromatia 1605
Abysia 13
Caelum 2016
Tir na n'Og 1840
Fomoria 3672
Hinnom 580
Independents 12
Lanka 0

Nation Gem Income
Ermor 5
Ulm 0
Sauromatia 43
Abysia 10
Caelum 60
Tir na n'Og 61
Fomoria 125
Hinnom 24
Independents 4
Lanka 0

Nation Research
Ermor 607
Ulm 618
Sauromatia 6675
Abysia 4091
Caelum 6330
Tir na n'Og 9228
Fomoria 4807
Hinnom 2528
Independents 0
Lanka 2168

Nation Dominion
Ermor 16
Ulm 0
Sauromatia 167
Abysia 213
Caelum 333
Tir na n'Og 488
Fomoria 850
Hinnom 233
Independents 0
Lanka 0

Nation Army Size
Ermor 45
Ulm 0
Sauromatia 1376
Abysia 116
Caelum 1248
Tir na n'Og 2018
Fomoria 1775
Hinnom 173
Independents 510
Lanka 0

[Valerius]

I'd like to apologize to the players in this game for disappearing. I take some pride in being a good admin and this was obviously the opposite of that. For RL reasons I did need to drop out of the game (my mind wasn't in the game and when I avoided staling I still ended up playing poorly) but I should of course have (at the very least) emailed Samhain and asked him to find a sub. Not that it was fair to saddle him with finding a sub and taking over admin duties after he'd kindly agreed to help out.

So, again, I apologize to the players in the game - especially to Samhain. Disappearing like that was unacceptable.

Also, thank you to Num for subbing in to a position that was a complete mess. I don't even recall what I was doing but one lowlight was the turn where I sent an army towards Sauro's cap and didn't bother providing an escape route if things went bad. Well, there went half the cap only mages I'd recruited thus far when that army was routed. I'm sure KeithZ was laughing at that turn. :p

Thanks everyone for playing in this experimental game and nice job Samhain - you were strong throughout the game. I also want to say good job HoleyDooley hanging in there for so long - it seemed like you were attacked by multiple nations but no one could finish you off.