Rock and a Hard Place - LA game - finished - Abysia wins

[vargr]

Game Link: http://www.llamaserver.net/gameinfo.cgi?game=Rock_and_a_Hard_Place

I'm setting up a small LA game to test the new CBM, looking for experienced players. You don't have to be a hard core vet but for balance reasons, this shoudn't be among your first games either.

Mod: CBM 1.94
Era: LA
Map: Land of Ethereal Squirrels with fixed starts for eight players
Banned nations: Ermor and R'lyeh
Diplomacy: not binding, item and gem trades are
Players: 8
Magic sites: 45
HoF: 15
Renaming: on
Graphs: on
Otherwise default settings

Hosting: 24 h for the first 25 turns, then 48 h. 72 h after turn 50 or so

Victory condition: consensus among the survivors

Don't use the exploits

I will grant reasonable extensions for RL reasons if asked in time. However, if you already know you'll have regular and frequent difficulties with the above hosting schedule in the future, please don't join. Also, if you get into that kind of situation or just can't or don't want to continue playing let me know as soon as possible. I'll try to find a sub. Above all, never go AI without permission - even staling will hurt the game less. I would, however, strongly encourage people to fight untill the end and have a 'playing to win' mindset even if victory doesn't seem realistic. Simply to ensure the game stays interesting and fun untill there's a consesus that it's really over.

Players:

vargr – Abysia
Ossa - Marignon
dojango - Bogarus
Reverend Zombie - Mictlan
Immaculate - Atlantis
Jolly Roger - Gath
odeoderok - T'ien Ch'i
YellowCactus - Ulm


12002

12003

NOTE: Mod changed to CBM 1.94. Pretenders created with 1.93 should be ok.

[Immaculate]

max number of players?

[vargr]

max number of players?

To reduce the end game micro, I'd keep it 8 players max.

[Ossa]

Marignon please.

[vargr]

Welcome Ossa.

Btw, we'll hopefully see the varius buffs to the elemental royalty in action, as well as the new zmey power level. Not a requirement, but I'm sure a public feedback on these is appreciated!

[dojango]

Bogarus. General Winter rides again!

[Reverend Zombie]

Mictlan, please.

[Immaculate]

vanheim

[vargr]

Welcome all.

If you have a strong opinion on the map, let us know. I would insist on a wrap around though.

[Jolly Roger]

GATH

Regards, Klaus

[vargr]

Welcome Jolly Roger.

I haven't played with you yet and your account is rather new so I ask it bluntly: what's your experience level?

Please don't take offence, I just want to make sure everyone is comfortable enough with the basics so the game will be enjoyable. If you can expand reliably, have a game plan for the late turns as well, and have survived to late game before that's enough.

[Jolly Roger]

I´ve taken part in several MP games, know how to expand and I have an interesting plan for GATH for all game phases.

So far I´ve survived only two games to the late game phase
due to the competitive community.

However, I´m definetely not a champion compared to the other participants.

Hope that´s OK with you, but I won´t complain in case you prefer to replace me.

Regards, Klaus

[vargr]

I´ve taken part in several MP games, know how to expand and I have an interesting plan for GATH for all game phases.

So far I´ve survived only two games to the late game phase
due to the competitive community.

However, I´m definetely not a champion compared to the other participants.

Hope that´s OK with you, but I won´t complain in case you prefer to replace me.

Regards, Klaus

Sounds good, welcome aboard!

Edit: we now have the minimum number of players I had in mind. With 6 I'm thinkin Streamlands as a map. I'll wait untill tomorrow before closing, still room for 2 more!
Also I remember llama mentioning a bugfix for the weekend, so might be worth waiting for that before starting unless it gets postponed too much

[Immaculate]

I'm gonna change my pick to atlantis i think.

[vargr]

OP updated.

I'll set up the game on llamaserver Monday morning GMT when we know our final player setup. So start planning on your pretenders, hopefully we could start soon after that. We can start with the current 6 players but there's still room for 2 more!

We may get a hotfix for CBM in time but so far I haven't come across anything game breaking. LA Man seems to get free Bean Sidhes but as of now they've not even been picked. Anyway, if you do find something that's obviously a bug, report it but don't exploit it.

And if anyone is wondering about the xp-requirements, hopefully I didn't sound too exclusive about it. There are certainly some competent players already signed in but the main point was to ensure the aforementioned basics. So if you meet them, welcome in!

[odeoderok]

T'ien C'hi please!

[vargr]

Welcome odeoderok.

Still room for one more!

[YellowCactus]

LA Ulm for me if there's still room!

[vargr]

Welcome YellowCactus.

We're full with 8 players. I'll set up the game as soon as we are decided on the map. There's a version of the Ethereal Squirrels that has 7 and 8 fixed starts on the llamaserver. It's a bit tight for 8 but still ok I guess, especially when Atlantis and Mictlan can go in the water straight away. Both should be rapid on the land as well though.

If we want a larger map, then I would suggest Land of Legends. Still just under 20 provs / player (19,1). Not a wrap but plays much like one.

What do you think?

[YellowCactus]

It SuX to be in the middle of non-wrapping maps, but I'm happy to play Dominions with you guys. Thanks for setting up the game!

[Immaculate]

either is fine with me.

[vargr]

It SuX to be in the middle of non-wrapping maps, but I'm happy to play Dominions with you guys. Thanks for setting up the game!

I agree. However, in the version I had in mind, the central island is disabled as starting location, furthermore, some of the worst starts (2 neighbour provs mainly) have been disabled. I think it's mainly question of size here.

I had a small game in mind when I started but as I've played several tight maps recently, and gotten into very early wars I didn't like, I'm leaning more and more towards a bigger map here. Even when the said wars went ok for me, I felt they hurt my end game. Maybe I'm just a hopeless turtle :)

But I want to emphasize that I'm certainly ok with Squirrels with 8 as well, if that's what folks want. I did propose it originally after all.

Edit: asked around about the Squirrels map with 8 starts, it was used in the Momentum game and seems some of the starts were very close each other. So maybe we shoud use another version, if we use that map

[Immaculate]

If you could get one of the vets to set the start positions on the one with the disabled center, i think that would be very interesting. I know in the past i've gone on ICQ and asked vets to do that and they've been very generous with their time. I feel it might be necessary to avoid start positions that are either low on resources or in otherwise bad sites.

Your call.

[dojango]

Nothing wrong with close starts, the ol' phonebooth knifefight can be entertaining, although it would favor nations like Mictlan and Atlantis.

As far as designing pretenders go, have pretenders been tweaked a lot for 1.93, or can we simply use the ones in 1.92 ettin fix?

[vargr]

Seems that balancing the Lands of Legends for 8 LA nations is quite hard - if you want to have roughly even spacing, No of neighbours over 3 and the access to the limited harbors. In addition, Mictlan and Atlantis will have a definitive advantage for the island provinces as they can reach it much more easily.

In order to allow people to plan accordingly I've decided on the Ethereal Squirrels map. Take a look athe thumbnail at:
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=46129&highlight=momentum&page=5

I would keep these starts but move 73 one tick east to 74. This way everyone should have a mimimum of 3 provinces between eachother. I don't think you can get 4 prov spread for everyone when it's this crowded.

Not at home atm but I'll set up the game tomorrow with the updated map. Try to have your pretender ready soon!

[Jolly Roger]

Great map.

Pretender designed ( CBM 1.92 ettin fix)

Ready to go.

Regards, Klaus

[Jolly Roger]

Installed CBM 1.93 meanwhile and designed a new pretender.
Ready to go.

Regards, Klaus

[vargr]

The game is created on llamaserver, ready to accept pretenders!

http://www.llamaserver.net/gameinfo.cgi?game=Rock_and_a_Hard_Place

OP updated with the fixed starts map

[vargr]

We are almost ready, still need the Marignon pretender.

[vargr]

PM:ed Ossa and asked how much time he still needs. If we don't hear from him I'm inclined to start the game with 7 players tomorrow.

Another thing: CBM194 is out and fixes some of the bugs, especially concerning EDM. Looking at the changelog, there's no changes to pretenders. Best to my knowledge this means we could use it without the hassle of resending the pretenders, anyone disagree?

[vargr]

Asked llama about this and there should indeed be no problems with pretenders created with 1.93. So I will be changing the mod to 1.94

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?p=810999#post810999

Otherwise we go as planned. We'll wait for Ossa atleast until tomorror, and if need be, start the game with 7 players. We'll then use the same map but with 7 fixed starts instead (there's a separate version in llamaserver already, seems to be used in the game 'Faded Magic').

[vargr]

Game is on, good luck!

[Immaculate]

I need a 56h extension. Sorry- work related meetings and a house move.

[vargr]

Postponed by 56 h.

[vargr]

Hmm, judging from the graphs, there seems to be some action already..

Heads up everyone, I'll be going on a short trip this weekend. I'll play tomorrow but have to postpone over Fri-Sun. I think I'll be able to play Sun evening GMT again - Monday the latest.

Sorry in advance for the delay!

[Immaculate]

Hi,

I'm in Philly on business without access to my gaming computer- can i get a 36-48h extension please?

i.

[vargr]

Hosting postponed by 48h.

[Jolly Roger]

Gentlemen,

I´ll be on a trip to the beautiful city of Dresden from Thursday to Saturday evening. Gonna have no internet access until Sunday
morning ( GMT +1).

A break for this period would be much appreciated.

Thanks, Klaus

[vargr]

I'll postpone hosting untill Sunday evening. Will add to the next turn in case you have time to play the current turn.

[Jolly Roger]

Thank you.

That´s much appreciated.

Cheers, Klaus

[vargr]

Bogarus, I noticed that you had a stale turn. Please let us know if you need a delay.

I'll increase the timer to 48 h after the next hosting anyway, as was planned.

[vargr]

I've postponed hosting by 24 h as Bogarus is yet to submit the turn with only 90 min to DL. Waiting on Mictlan as well.

Will start looking for a sub tomorrow if we don't hear anything form dojango.

[vargr]

Bullock has kindly agreed to sub in for Bogarus. Thanks Bullock!

Note that hosting interval will be 48h after the next hosting.

[Bullock]

Yeah thx for the hot welcome:
I'm already being invaded and my other neighbor is breaking nap lol

So i guess i won't stay long ^^

[vargr]

Well, judging from our struggles in previous games I'm convinced that you'll make your aggressors pay dearly. :D

I had no idea how the diplo would actually play out here but seems you got the raw deal.. Anyway, again geat many thanks for subbing. I for one appreciate this kind of helpfulness alot in the community! I know I haven't been too active on this regard.

[Immaculate]

Atlantis is looking to buy a thistle mace and can pay in death or water gems.

[Immaculate]

Sorry Mictlan... obviously you were not my target.

[vargr]

I postponed the hosting considerably when the llamaserver was down. It's now back and I set the hosting closer to the original again, but seems that the game status hasn't been updated yet. You'll have some extra time anyway:

"Hosting postponed for Rock_and_a_Hard_Place by -48 hours. The game will now host at 18:43 GMT on Thursday November 8th."

[Immaculate]

I will be gone from Nov 16 to Nov 26. I need to try and find a sub.

[vargr]

OK. Much appreciated if we can get a sub.

[Immaculate]

Fantomen will be subbing for me. I will provide her e-mail address on the 15th or 16th.

[vargr]

Great! Thanks Immaculate for arranging and thanks Fantomen for subbing!

[Ossa]

Holey, stealing a minor province without land connection in the turn the NAP is accepted and then renouncing me after *you* convinced me to attack Pan (and staying off the war yourself) is reason enough to attack you. Especially after your demanding and absolutly unfitting message the turn after.

I didnt break a NAP since... 2010?

[Immaculate]

Drunk?

[Immaculate]

Vagr- you should have Fantomen's e-mail address; i PMed you.

Say something if you don't.

i.

[vargr]

Fantomen, you should receive turn 46 for Atlantis soon.

[Immaculate]

thanks.

and Ossa- our babies seem to be just fine after all... despite your alpha strike.

[vargr]

Odeoderok needs a postponement, 24 h added to the timer.

[Fantomen]

I've recieved the turn and should have time to update myself tonight. I should be ok with the timer but an extra day just to make sure wouldn't hurt. Immac has updated me on the wars I'm in etc.

[Ossa]

@Immaculate :
It might be the case that I underestimated your thugs by some degree;)

[vargr]

I've postponed the hosting by 24h just in case.

[Fantomen]

So turn is finally in. Now I'll be up to speed.

[Immaculate]

I am back. Fanto- we should talk tonight.

[vargr]

Ok, send me your email and I'll change it back. I've added 24 h to the timer, say if you need more.

Fantomen, thanks for subbing!

[vargr]

You should have the turn any minute now. I've postponed by 48 h as requested.

[Immaculate]

Ossa, Odeorock,

We need to talk. And we need to stop fighting among ourselves (this is more for Ossa than Odeorock obviously) and turn our attention on Abysia.

Can we meet on gamesurge chat?

Follow this link:
https://gamesurge.net/chat/

and type "/join #dominions"
without the quotation marks.

Then look for me and write my name. It will make a 'bing' sound for me and i will know you are available to coordinate with.

Thanks... we can't let abysia run away with this. That would be very poor sportsmanship of us indeed. He is very near the point where we will be able to resist him but ultimately not stop him. There is a certain point where if we work together we can still stop him. Beyond that point its a mopping up operation. Lets make him earn this and give him a sound thrashing.

See you on the 'chat'.

I.

[vargr]

Marignon, your people are known as the Conquerors of the Sea. It is your destiny to triumph over Atlantis and establish successful fish soup companies in the process. We promised support and kept that promise.

T'ien Ch'i, you basically wrote the book on the Art of War. So please don't let yourself be fooled by the sweet talks of the fishlords. You've seen what they are capable of and you know where the increase in our magic resources came from. And without our intervention, where would the balance of strength be now?

At all; let it be known that Abysia is not greedy. At this point we are only interested in the lands of Ulm and the process of annexing them is almost over. It is in Atlantis' interests to portray Abysia as the run away empire but if that was accurate we would not bother negotiating. As it is, this 'sound thrashing' seems an overkill and makes one wonder who will benefit the most of it?

[YellowCactus]

Help! We're being Oppressed!

(Ulm)

[Immaculate]

The Abysian diplomat speaks falsehoods- already they have moved beyond the lands that were historically Ulmish into the heart of the Atlantean nation. Their words are falsehoods. Except these:

It is in Atlantis' interests to portray Abysia as the run away empire but if that was accurate we would not bother negotiating. As it is, this 'sound thrashing' seems an overkill and makes one wonder who will benefit the most of it?

I do not believe they have reached that point where they can no longer be stopped. They have not tilted the balance in favor of 'run away empire' quite yet. They are very nearly there and if you sit idly by they will be but at the moment they can still be stopped. If you strive for godhood you must act against them now.

[Ossa]

The high lord of Marignon have looked into our holy fires and divined that the Abysian diplomat speaks the truth. We shall put the fishmen in their place (our oven in this case) - especially as it was a threat from Atlantis that started this war!

[vargr]

The Abysian diplomat speaks falsehoods- already they have moved beyond the lands that were historically Ulmish into the heart of the Atlantean nation. Their words are falsehoods. Except these:


Hmm.. Are you sure? I could have sworn that 77 and the provinces immediately north - east of it were Ulm's originally. Perhaps I'm mistaken. Not saying it would have changed the plans, the original ownership was beside the point really. Just wanted to localise my goal for the Atlantian expedition.

[Immaculate]

I won't be able to play this game after December 15th. I am currently looking for a sub.

[vargr]

Sorry to hear that. RL of course takes priority. I hope everything is ok!

[Immaculate]

I havn't found a sub; do you want me to go AI? If not, please feel free to change the e-mail address of the turn to someone else.

[vargr]

Let's see if we can get a sub still. Marignon and you should be able judge the position most accurately but I take it you have large armies of good quality and plenty of the Angakok-thugs left.

Can you get the current turn in? And don't worry about it, we'll sort it out somehow. You've done an exemplary job of taking care of you own play breaks/ sub findings.

[Immaculate]

I may be able to get my current turn in. I won't set myself to AI if i do.

And thank-you.

[vargr]

Heads up everyone. I've delayed the hosting until Atlantis is resolved. I've got couple of possible sub candidates so don't lose hope!

[Ragnarok-X]

Howdi.
Im playing Atlantis now. If someone could tell me about the relationship between Aby and Atlantis and TC and Atlantis, that would be great.
In addition, i need some gems. Does anyone feel like trading with me in general ?

[vargr]

Thanks Ragnarok-X!

I've PMed you my view of the situation. You could try contacting Immaculate as well. As I said it's been somewhat like a Marignon-Abysia vs Atlantis-TC recently. I've got my hands full with TC and should not bother you but will defend the borders naturally.


Againg thanks for subbing and let us know if you need more time for the turn.

[vargr]

My war with TC has turned heavily in my favor, they've lost most of the troops and mages. I've also built up armies and thug squads similar to those now in TC at Marignon's and Atlantis' borders.

I've heard both Marignon and TC and it seems that people are willing to concede. So what do you think? A last push from all of you or shall we call it a game?

[Ragnarok-X]

That is interesting. Marignon did actually agree to forfeiting the game, is that correct ?

[Immaculate]

If the game gets called i would like to hear about Vagr's game. What was with your army graph for example? What were your research goals and in what order? Expansion policy?

[Ossa]

I'd agree to concede this game to Abyssia. I wouldnt stand a fighting chance either.

[vargr]

Ok. So I assume that we can finish the game then. I'll close it tomorrow unless there's a last minute change of heart.

Thanks everyone for the game! All in all a very easy game for the admin, subs were found quickly and not too much staling etc.

If the game gets called i would like to hear about Vagr's game. What was with your army graph for example? What were your research goals and in what order? Expansion policy?

I'll try to answer this with a short recap later. Also some feedback on the elemental royalties.

[Ragnarok-X]

Hm. I only played like 4 or 5 turns. Damn.

[odeoderok]

Yeah, good game, thanks to everyone. I read in a strategy guide that sloth 3 could be good for LA T'ien C'hi. Well, it wasn't. Less than 100 resources in the capital with holys costing 31 res each was not good. It also didn't help that my first expansion army was killed by indies.

So considering all that, I did better than I expected, although I never had a snowball's chance in hell against vargr. Thanks for the game!

[Immaculate]

I think Marrignon decided the game by not attacking Abysia. Am i wrong?

[vargr]

I guess most of the advantage in teaming up was already lost. The majority of my forces in TC were released from that war and now ready to move on and support those dedicated for Marignon. Only few turns away from Marignon heart lands.

Odeoderok, I agree completely. You rallied admirably after a miserable start and then went on to beat Mictlan and grow into a contender for the late game. It was inspiring to watch!

[vargr]

As requested, here's a summary of my game:

My pretender was Conqueror Worm, the Green Dragon. Dom 9, growth scales. Dragon for fast expansion, year one rush deterrent and to free money for research and early forts. High dominion for spreading the joy of warm weather to my enemies and advantage on the battlefield. I didn't aim for a domkill victory but I did quite a lot of blood sac anyway, and unless I'm mistaken, Ulm was technically domkilled. Nature dragon to diversify into high level nature and later air magic. As for scales, I still can't play any game without G3. The 0.3% / tick is just that good. Doubly so with a blood nation and then there's the old age thing.

Early reasearch was basic Evoc, Blood and Conj (battle magic, Smoulderghosts). Thau 4 (Prison of Fire) quite early as well. Then Const 6 (boosters) and I squeezed Ench 6 (Eternal Pyre) and Blood 6-7 soon after. Few turns to Conj 6 (Zmeys, Spectres), then switched to Const 8 and back again for Conj 8. Normally I would put priority on Blood but as I said in the OP, I wanted to test the new elemental uniques. So Blood 8-9 came late, but I got Gorilon the heliophagus (for vampires) on the first try and actually all the Demon Lords in the end. Pazuzu gave me the Air Queens so I didn't need much of the Faerie Courts. For the end game, Evoc 7 (Fire Storm), Alt 7-8 (Fog Warriors, Will of the Fates, Disintegrate), Conj 9 (Ember Lords) and Ench 8.

Throughout the game, the bulk of my troops was mixed squads of Smoulderghosts and Light Abysian Infantries. Both relatively cheap, easy to mass, FR100 and map move 2. The tower shield / ethereal is nice and the Smoulderghosts buff overall morale. Indy crossbowmen and heavy cavalry were used as well. Later on I had several hundred vampires. I used them as patrollers and counter riders in own dominion. I like vampires, especially the lords: immortal, Life for a Life, Disintegrate, stealthy, flying.. I had some sea troll courts, living statues, dark vines etc as well but those in smaller numbers. Decoys and such.

I summoned the following elemental royalty: Pyriphlogos, Rhuax, Antrax, Nephele, Thuella and Pedoseidon. At least in this game the CBM buffs worked well. Pyriphlogos is awesome with the F8 battlemagic, Rhuax with automatic Heat from Hell especially for Abysia. Mists of Deception (Nephele) and obviously auto-Storm (Aella) should work well for air nations. Didn’t get to use Thuella’s thunder weapon or fight against the Earth Kings/Water Queens.

Zmeys continue to be very good. They do ask for a reinvig item in prolonged fights now but other than that, pretty badass summons still.

Early expansion went well as expected. My neighbors were Bogarus, Ulm and TC. I feared Bogarus the most for their good diversity and research so I decided to attack them while I was still bigger. Marignon actually raided some of my coastal provinces around that time (damn sailors!) but that was resolved with the courage of my infantry and the silver tongue of my diplomats. I got them as an ally in the end but still had to bear the brunt of Bogarus forces. Special mention to Bullock who nearly trampled me with a 30+ mage communion. The decisive battle was actually fought at my capital!

TC fought Mictlan and Marignon attacked Atlantis. I used the opportunity to invade Ulm but I did promise support for Marignon and kept that promise to consolidate good relations later. Atlantis suggested I attack Marignon instead. While I agree on Immac’s assesment of Marignon's late game power, I think I made the right decision: I didn't want to be in the finals with a water nation, I didn’t want to deal with the possible Burden of Time, and I estimated that with this setup both Marignon and Atlantis would be locked in an exhausting war longer than me. Of course Ulm with the freespawn hordes was a pain to root out and I spent far too much time sieging their cap, but as I hoped, the Atlantis-Marignon and TC-Mictlan wars lasted long enough for me to be ready for the next war.

By the time TC declared war, Marignon was still busy with Atlantis and I was more than ready to attack TC anyway. In the end I had about 200 blood slaves / turn without pushing it or hurting gold income (did I say growth is good), ability to summon and kit a Zmey / Ember Lord per/turn while still accumulating F gems and access to many of the high level A/N/E/S buffs for several armies. TC fought well but I just had way too much of everything. So yes, in retrospect, maybe I should have been ganked earlier but I didn't honestly realize this myself either until in the very last couple of turns.

Again, thanks everyone for the game! I hope you enjoyed it and looking forward to seeing you in other games.

[Immaculate]

How did you establish your death gem income for the smoulderghosts, site-searching?

[vargr]

As soon as a D2 Anathemant was hired, I put him to manual site search duty indefinitely. And when I had some initial income I did pretty thorough remote searches in all paths available. My D income was actually quite good early on, that must have influenced my troop strategy as well. Much worse luck with astral, earth and nature.

[Immaculate]

You broke into earth?

[vargr]

The Warlocks have a earth random. I got the Pebble Skin Suit, then Bloodstone and lucked into a E2 Spectre. Later on I had Belphegor and Pedoseidon.

But there just weren't many earth sites in my lands so I never did much else than some minor forging. Girdles, Crystal Shields etc.

Gem diversity of course improved with conquest. :) In the end I had enough air as well for battles, items and domes.