Dominions 3 no longer available from Shrapnel?

[Larz]

I was going to recommend Dom 3 to someone and was going to point them to the page to buy the game but have noticed that is says it's not available. It says somthing about checking back on December 1st? Anyone know whats going on? Even the download version is not available.

[YellowCactus]

They were just running a 50% off sale. Maybe Dom3 is out of stock...

[Larz]

But even the download version is not available.

[Edi]

There will be more news regarding this issue in the near future. No need to panic or worry. However, it is not my place to publicly post information that I have not been given permission divulge.

[Edi]

And now that Illwinter has made a public announcement on their web page, I can elaborate somewhat.

Shrapnel Games no longer sells Dominions 3, but Illwinter has plans to publish the game on Desura after December 1st, 2012.

So keep your eyes peeled in that regard.

[Admiral_Aorta]

haha, finally the regime topples

[Fantomen]

This is great news!

So this should mean we can look forward to a primary forum where half the regular workhorses isn't banned? Funtional customer support? A distributor that actually likes and listens to it's customers? An end to the stupid pissing contest? An opening for Steam distribution further ahead? Reasonable pricing?

I'm so happy about this. Thank you Illwinter!

[Admiral_Aorta]

Desura seem to have automatic forums for each game so there will almost certainly be one over there.

[Redeyes]

Desura seem to have automatic forums for each game so there will almost certainly be one over there.Desura forums give me a headache and this place has a wealth of collected knowledge stuff.
I will miss you, Shrapnel forums!

But I assume this place isn't actually going away?

[Fantomen]

I too hope that Shrapnel will keep this forum open for reference, but I personally think it will die out as a hub for actual player interaction.

dom3mods is already more active than this forum, and without the distribution new players will no longer start out here. I suspect there will be a steadily growing desura forum operating side by side with SA and dom3mods, I think that will turn out much better than the current situation once the confusion ove migrating the community settles.

In any case it might be a good idea to do some kind of project to secure all the information stored here, just to be safe. Like backing up the entire strategy index on the dom3mods lords of war section. That also has the benefit that it could be reordered by validity to some extent.

And so on, in any case we should all try and help ease the migration and minimize the hassles. I know that not everyone likes it at dom3mods but even for those who don't I think it could be a very useful intermediary stable platform while the desura community matures.

[Soyweiser]

This is unexpected. Edi, could you ask shrapnel if we could get a warning if the dom3 part of the forum is suddenly closed? We would like some sort of archive of it. It still contains a lot of unique game information.

[Edi]

I don't expect much to change here. The Space Empires 4 forum is still active despite Shrapnel not having been selling that game for years now. Many other forums have simply been archived.

I know that not everyone here is a great fan of Shrapnel and some of their policies, but in this instance an instant shutdown of the forums would not be in their interest in any imaginable way.

[PsiSoldier]

Yeah the Dominions 3 Forum I am sure generates a lot of traffic for their Shrapnelgames website so it wouldn't make any sense to close a forum that attracts business..

[Soyweiser]

That totally depends on the conversion rate per unique visitor. I would not be surprised if they are running a loss for the dom3 forum.

[Gandalf Parker]

People who come to forum.shrapnelgames.com tend to do well for Shrapnel Games. People who have a link that takes them straight to one forum tend to have a different view of how busy, or effective, the site is. Seeing the full days activity on the entire site says things are going ok.

As Edi said, the standard has been to not take down a forum as long as no one is burning bridges. Some uncarried games still beat out Dom3 forum on the scoreboards. And they do generate sales now. A while back a forum format change made sure that some of the screen is ad space and news space even if people are skipping the sites main pages to jump directly into the forum. At the time it made a lot of people mad but its been a good move.

But I am with others in saying that I am not impressed so far with the 3 sites that Illwinter put their other game on. Possibly a fan site can help by providing something more comfortable.

[Edi]

But I am with others in saying that I am not impressed so far with the 3 sites that Illwinter put their other game on. Possibly a fan site can help by providing something more comfortable.

The Desura forum software has a very barebones functionality and it works for that. It's also fairly fast. It's not as feature rich as this forum or the basic phpbb boards or some others.

The main thing with the Desura forum is that it, like any other successful forum, needs an active management that is on the ball. Especially if the community is active.

Gamer's Gate doesn't seem to even have a forum and the Steam forum is, well, the Steam forum. Didn't like what I saw of it.

An alternative would be to set up their own forum or to use a fan made forum, whether that would be Proboards or Invision or wherever else.

Setting up a dedicated forum takes at the very least time and effort, both in the setup and maintenance, but it gives the most control. It's a question of resources and of how much free time and effort outsiders are willing to dedicate to make things happen if Illwinter cannot go beyond what there is due to their own time and resource limitations.

[Soyweiser]

People who come to forum.shrapnelgames.com tend to do well for Shrapnel Games. People who have a link that takes them straight to one forum tend to have a different view of how busy, or effective, the site is. Seeing the full days activity on the entire site says things are going ok.

Without information on the conversion rate of unique visitors. I don't really agree on this. Something that looks pretty busy can still be pretty expensive to maintain if it generates no sales.

And most of the forums here are dead or even stillborn. The mods hardly even reply to simple support question on the main shrapnel forum. (And it has stickies for vista beta testers and site conversion. All stuff that should have been just removed ages ago).

And nobody even replied to this post: http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showpost.php?p=809788&postcount=4. At least half the forums here only contains negative posts ("what happened to the development of this game?", or "why you no fix bug" posts).

I don't want shrapnel to go under or something. I just hope they get their act together and get with the times. But I fear this will not happen. Nor will we hear much from them. I expect it is because they live in the 90's world or due to some extensive "secrecy is important" military background stuff. (I assume the people behind shrapnel have a military background).

To me it just feels like they stopped caring years ago. And that is why I fear for the these old dom3 forums.

[Fantomen]

I believe you are right Soy.

Looking around the forums here feels like walking around a ghost town, it's almost eerie. Games with stickied threads and subforums but no actual posts in them, the occasional lone question or complaint echoing out unheard in a digital wasteland.

I have no idea how Shrapnel is doing finacially now that they lost dom3, but it's quite hard to understand how a business with a forum as barren as this could be stable and profitable. If the other games sell well then there should be at least a few users posting in those forums.

I hope I'm wrong, but i requested very politely in the general section that we'd be given some kind of assurance of the forums future or a backup dump of it. No response at all...

[Gandalf Parker]

Edi went abit more deeply but it seems we agree.
Hopefully someplace will be found with a friendly forum software to become the official forum, or we can continue to use this one. If not then a fan site will pick it up.

[momfreeek]

Something that looks pretty busy can still be pretty expensive to maintain if it generates no sales.
Wouldn't any sort of staff costs dwarf other costs considerably? I'm not surprised there is so little staff activity, I kind of assumed there weren't any.

dom3 is still unmatched, still being patched and deserves a place alongside modern titles. its good to see it move on.

[Excist]

Any chance this means that they'll finally have the money to fix their combat AI?

Just lost 2 gem intensive thugs because they decided to ignore Breath of Winter in favor of Blade Wind since they were worried about freezing each other. Apparently exhausting themselves was preferable.

I would much rather have an AI that erred on the side of messing up by following a script than one that erred on the side of messing up by going off script.

If they had followed the script they would both have had 100% cold resistance, but instead they had 100% fatigue.

[Olive]

It seems very unlikely...

[Man with No Name]

Just lost 2 gem intensive thugs because they decided to ignore Breath of Winter in favor of Blade Wind since they were worried about freezing each other. Apparently exhausting themselves was preferable.
That is simply player error. And a player blaming the casting AI for mages going off-script due to friendly fire concerns (or range, lack of tvalid target issues etc) is just that player looking for lame excuses so that he doesn't have to blame himself for his own mistakes and failings as a player.

Anyone who says this sort of thing is a game bug, casting AI bug, casting AI short-coming, or any other similar object of potential blame transference, needs to spend more time learning better scripting and positioning, and less time finding things to blame their playing mistakes on.

I would much rather have an AI that erred on the side of messing up by following a script than one that erred on the side of messing up by going off script.

And for every player who says the casting AI should err on the side of recklessness, you will find another player who says it should prefer caution instead. It's impossible to make both camps happy, and futile to even try. At the very least the code would need a massive re-write before progress cold even be started on making "both camps happy". There are far better things for Illwinter to be spending their time on if improving Dominions was the objective. And far better ways of improving the casting AI than your suggestion. (if improving the casting AI/playing AI was the aim)

If they had followed the script they would both have had 100% cold resistance, but instead they had 100% fatigue.
Maybe think about scripting Cold Resitance instead of BoW next time. Or Cold Resistance followed by BoW if you really need the BoW effect. Or Cold Resistance on the thug that appears higher up on the commander list, followed by BoW on the thug appearing lower down. As that way the first thug will be 100% CR by the time the second thug wants to cast BoW, preventing any friendly fire concerns (assuming no negative CR modifiers are being applied), and that way you will at least have BoW on one of the thugs.

[Edi]

Easy there. We'd prefer a slightly friendlier tone of voice, as it were.

I do think that it is more a matter of miscalculation on the part of the player in Excist's example and that more learning the ins and outs of the casting AI are in order.

Any significant AI rewrites, extensions and other alterations at this point are, to say the least, unlikely.

[Man with No Name]

Easy there. We'd prefer a slightly friendlier tone of voice, as it were.

I do think that it is more a matter of miscalculation on the part of the player in Excist's example and that more learning the ins and outs of the casting AI are in order.

Any significant AI rewrites, extensions and other alterations at this point are, to say the least, unlikely.
My apologies, didn't mean to come across as harshly as I did. Just that I have seen this type of player mis-calculation made many times, and players assuming the casting AI was the only cause of the problem. (so wanted to point out that the casting AI is not to blame on this one, on or similar such incidents)

Sorry again.

[Soyweiser]

... Calahan is back?

[Excist]

To No Name:

"That is simply player error. And a player blaming the casting AI for mages going off-script due to friendly fire concerns (or range, lack of tvalid target issues etc) is just that player looking for lame excuses so that he doesn't have to blame himself for his own mistakes and failings as a player."

Nope. Not knowing the AI's flawed thinking in advance is not "player error". That is like....well...calling a bug an undocumented feature.

"Anyone who says this sort of thing is a game bug, casting AI bug, casting AI short-coming, or any other similar object of potential blame transference, needs to spend more time learning better scripting and positioning, and less time finding things to blame their playing mistakes on."

Anybody that makes a comment like this is compensating for something :)


"And for every player who says the casting AI should err on the side of recklessness, you will find another player who says it should prefer caution instead."

That is a debating strategem called a false choice or false dilemma. The choice here isn't between erring on the side of recklessness or erring on the side of caution (since casting a high fatigue combat spell before wading into melee carries its own risks and recklessness). The choice is between following a script as close as possible or deviating from the script and substituting choices that do not take into account the overall script or strategy employed.

" It's impossible to make both camps happy, and futile to even try. At the very least the code would need a massive re-write before progress cold even be started on making "both camps happy"."

Again, you are assuming the false choice. This conversation in proper context (the one that I had written my patch request with in mind) could be very simply implemented - a) mages do nothing when their spell would have a (to the AI) "reckless" effect, b) mages skip that step and go onto the next scripted order, c) -this would require more than 2 lines of code, but the casting AI could look at the last order (attack melee or cast or retreat) before deciding whether to cast high fatigue spells or not.

"There are far better things for Illwinter to be spending their time on if improving Dominions was the objective."

I know of no other areas needing improvement that have caused people to quit the game. What areas fail the potential of this game more than the battle AI?

"And far better ways of improving the casting AI than your suggestion. (if improving the casting AI/playing AI was the aim)"

I was not too specific, but I'm sure they could use any advice you have. All I was voicing was a wish for a battle AI that will stick to the script a little bit more often. There are many ways that could be done that I would be satisified with.

"Maybe think about scripting Cold Resitance instead of BoW next time. Or Cold Resistance followed by BoW if you really need the BoW effect."

No point having the CR in that case without putting BoW into play for that battle. Scripting both CR and BoW adds additional fatigue and in some scenarios could take more lines of scripting than you have for buffing a thug. If I had known the AI had this particular poorly prioritized concern for the safety of their allies I would have forgone the group buff and positioned them seperately. As it is, I had no reason to suspect that PBAOE cold auras took into consideration friendly fire since Winter Wolves, and casters that have already cast BoW have no qualms about bunching up as close to as many of their unprotected allies as possible during combat. Not to mention, several casters that have cold or poison auras will cast stone skin or invulnerability respectively on themselves given half a chance. No indication at all before having scripted this, that the AI would behave that way.

" Or Cold Resistance on the thug that appears higher up on the commander list, followed by BoW on the thug appearing lower down. As that way the first thug will be 100% CR by the time the second thug wants to cast BoW, preventing any friendly fire concerns (assuming no negative CR modifiers are being applied), and that way you will at least have BoW on one of the thugs."

Yes, I am aware that if you know in advance that the AI is prone to one mistake or another there are sometimes work arounds to prevent them from exhibiting that particular brain fart, but it doesn't mean that the AI doesn't need improvement in order to "deserve a place alongside modern titles".

[JonBrave]

... Calahan is back?

Is there some (free) software out there, where you can give it some forum posts and it will analyze the style/syntax/vocabulary and indicate whether the posts come from the same person? :)

[JonBrave]

Any chance this means that they'll finally have the money to fix their combat AI?


(No offence intended, but) What makes you think that would have anything to do with money? :) I would wager money would not be the issue....

[Gandalf Parker]

There is such software. But Im not aware of any free ones.

Some crappy simple ones are scripts using wc, sort, uniq. They compare what words are used, how often, and the letter count on uncapitalized words. Not good enough for a conviction but good enough for a "who to watch" list.

Reminds me of one of the songs in the Dom3 Parodies thread joking about the possibility that some of the people in the games or posting here are actually devs or staff or infamous people from our past....
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showpost.php?p=669631&postcount=35

[JonBrave]

Setting up a dedicated forum takes at the very least time and effort, both in the setup and maintenance, but it gives the most control. It's a question of resources and of how much free time and effort outsiders are willing to dedicate to make things happen if Illwinter cannot go beyond what there is due to their own time and resource limitations.

I'd like to volunteer GP for this :)

[Gandalf Parker]

Heehee. You forgot to add the target to that statement. :target:
In any case, Been there Done that. :) Servers, generators, store, anything Dom3 needed. But its hard to justify the time now. The income is closed off. If it opens up later maybe.

Plus we have had an older crowd for over a decade. I am not sure if even I have the patience and diplomacy to offer support to the $5 horde. I dont know if anyone will.

[Valerius]

I'll be interested to see how the change in distributors (and presumably price point) plays out. What is the potential audience that either balked at the price or just had never heard of the game?

Sure, the game has been out for six years, but cutting edge graphics were never its selling point so players for whom that's key likely wouldn't have been interested in it at launch either. Other things that some TBS players would find deal-breakers (say, the lack of full tactical combat) were just as much the case when the game was released as now. In short, I think the game ages well (I've always viewed Dom as being like a really good board game that you go back to over a long period of time).

And I have to admit to some curiosity as to whether, if the game sells well, it will renew IWs interest in the game. Not so much because of the money involved but because an influx of new players combined with having taken a break from Dom for a few years to concentrate on CoE might leave them ready to focus on Dom for a while.

Regarding Shrapnel, I think they're in a difficult position. It seems to me that their advantage was in providing a distribution channel to indie developers who wouldn't have had a chance at getting retail shelf space. But with the migration of PC gaming to digital distribution it eliminates the need for a lot of the services they provide developers. No physical product means no printing manuals, burning CDs and fulfilling orders. Payment processing can be handled just as easily by a digital distributor. Shrapnel might be able to offer a better revenue share but would that outweigh the much greater audience a digital distributor would provide for a developer's games?

[Soyweiser]

... Calahan is back?

Is there some (free) software out there, where you can give it some forum posts and it will analyze the style/syntax/vocabulary and indicate whether the posts come from the same person? :)

Well looking at the style of writing, and the type of reactions it elicits (thanks Hishtagat, you are my filthy assistant) it can only be calahan.

Also:
[Sensori] Clint Eastwood was Cal(l)ahan.
[Sensori] Clint Eastwood was also the man with no name.

[momfreeek]

Yes, I am aware that if you know in advance that the AI is prone to one mistake or another there are sometimes work arounds to prevent them from exhibiting that particular brain fart, but it doesn't mean that the AI doesn't need improvement in order to "deserve a place alongside modern titles".To qualify my opinion:

I am a dom3 noob. I'm very happy with my purchase and that I've got my moneys worth from dom3 even if I never played it again.

Modern games have their shortcomings too and rarely do they interest me so much or hold my attention so long. The only other game I can think of that even has unit scripting is dragon-age-origins and thats not multiplayer (I'm sure there's plenty more examples.. i'd be interested to know).

[Valerius]

(No offence intended, but) What makes you think that would have anything to do with money? :) I would wager money would not be the issue....

Ok, you must be a Gand-alt, that's definitely one of Gandalf's themes. *Goes to check JonBrave's post history for the phrase "there's pros and cons to everything" in order to confirm suspicion* :p

[Gandalf Parker]

I'll be interested to see how the change in distributors (and presumably price point) plays out. What is the potential audience that either balked at the price or just had never heard of the game?
Illwinters other game reflects some of that. Even with no PR staff, steam does get a game noticed. Its definitely a workable option for those that want it.

And I have to admit to some curiosity as to whether, if the game sells well, it will renew IWs interest in the game. Not so much because of the money involved but because an influx of new players combined with having taken a break from Dom for a few years to concentrate on CoE might leave them ready to focus on Dom for a while.

Illwinter has tried many times to explain their position on this. Money was never a motive. More money is unlikely to change what they do and why. They have day jobs and they do this for their own fun. It is driven and guided more by player appreciation. Over the years they have tried many changes that "knowledgable" players have pushed with accompanying impact on the companys "income"

Shrapnel might be able to offer a better revenue share but would that outweigh the much greater audience a digital distributor would provide for a developer's games?
Everything has its pros and cons. That discussion is also in many threads here. But the support level for DD goes up tremendously. It is hard to fathom but any company can verify it. The big boy business plan tends to carry with it a requirement to want to be a big boy. More people for the support level unless you would rather just have the money and dump the support.

But its all just another option for those who want an option. As long as there are options out there, its just noisy to try and convince any of them to operate like the other. Its worth watching. But not worth arguing. IMHO

[Valerius]

Illwinter has tried many times to explain their position on this. Money was never a motive. More money is unlikely to change what they do and why. They have day jobs and they do this for their own fun.

And I made a point of saying it wouldn't be based on money.


Over the years they have tried many changes that "knowledgable" players have pushed with accompanying impact on the companys "income"

I have no idea what that means. Please clarify.


Everything has its pros and cons. That discussion is also in many threads here. But the support level for DD goes up tremendously. It is hard to fathom but any company can verify it. The big boy business plan tends to carry with it a requirement to want to be a big boy. More people for the support level unless you would rather just have the money and dump the support.

Do you mean in the sense that more sales equals more players and thus more support requests or are you saying that DD attracts a different (presumably less knowledgeable) audience that has a higher frequency of support requests?

[Gandalf Parker]

Over the years they have tried many changes that "knowledgable" players have pushed with accompanying impact on the companys "income"

I have no idea what that means. Please clarify.
I dont HAVE to be non-insulting anymore but I generally try anyway. Not YOU but others over the years have pushed the money aspect rudely while Illwinter has explained the joy and job satisfaction aspect. The two do not go hand in hand. by some methods, they can even be counter.


Everything has its pros and cons. That discussion is also in many threads here. But the support level for DD goes up tremendously. It is hard to fathom but any company can verify it. The big boy business plan tends to carry with it a requirement to want to be a big boy. More people for the support level unless you would rather just have the money and dump the support.

Do you mean in the sense that more sales equals more players and thus more support requests or are you saying that DD attracts a different (presumably less knowledgeable) audience that has a higher frequency of support requests?

I dont know. Not my area to study altho I have worked for companies that had people who did. The all important price break point that people feel has been missed involves more than just income. Many mention the phrase target demographics but dont seem to realize that the change in target demographics is also a change in the player community that is created.

[Admiral_Aorta]

I'll be interested to see how the change in distributors (and presumably price point) plays out. What is the potential audience that either balked at the price or just had never heard of the game?

Sure, the game has been out for six years, but cutting edge graphics were never its selling point so players for whom that's key likely wouldn't have been interested in it at launch either. Other things that some TBS players would find deal-breakers (say, the lack of full tactical combat) were just as much the case when the game was released as now. In short, I think the game ages well (I've always viewed Dom as being like a really good board game that you go back to over a long period of time).

And I have to admit to some curiosity as to whether, if the game sells well, it will renew IWs interest in the game. Not so much because of the money involved but because an influx of new players combined with having taken a break from Dom for a few years to concentrate on CoE might leave them ready to focus on Dom for a while.

Regarding Shrapnel, I think they're in a difficult position. It seems to me that their advantage was in providing a distribution channel to indie developers who wouldn't have had a chance at getting retail shelf space. But with the migration of PC gaming to digital distribution it eliminates the need for a lot of the services they provide developers. No physical product means no printing manuals, burning CDs and fulfilling orders. Payment processing can be handled just as easily by a digital distributor. Shrapnel might be able to offer a better revenue share but would that outweigh the much greater audience a digital distributor would provide for a developer's games?

Are you seriously that baffled as to why people don't want to pay 60 of your earth dollars for a six year old game? Of course it stops people who would otherwise be interested from buying it.

[Soyweiser]

I dont know. Not my area to study altho I have worked for companies that had people who did. The all important price break point that people feel has been missed involves more than just income. Many mention the phrase target demographics but dont seem to realize that the change in target demographics is also a change in the player community that is created.

What a bunch of elitist drivel. So people with less money are not good enough to play dom3?

Edit:
community management by pricing... that is the most retarded way of managing community ever. And guess what. It doesn't work. *******s also have money.

Edit2:
Proper community management is done in different ways. You want to manage the oldtimers. The way they interact influences how newbies interact. Old timers call others out on unwanted behaviour, and they way they post (or posted, as anybody can view the history) influences new behaviour.

Mods also influence a lot, but as they cannot edit every post that is made. They do not the only thing to blame if a forum goes sour.

[Gandalf Parker]

Yeah it sounds like crap. It gets done a lot, pricing for target demographic with no basis on the product. Everything from music to clothes and even foods. But its not something corporations own up to much. Even those that dont do it on purpose end up with the results apparently.

I dont think any corp cares who buys it and uses it.

[Valerius]

Are you seriously that baffled as to why people don't want to pay 60 of your earth dollars for a six year old game? Of course it stops people who would otherwise be interested from buying it.

Did I say I was baffled? The question is how much of an impediment has the price been. 20% of potential sales lost? 30%? More? I have no idea. So that's what will be interesting to see.* Though of course in addition to a (presumed) price drop the game will also get additional exposure (and at least some of those purchasers would have also bought the game at the old price point if they had known about it).

* Not that we'll be privy to sales numbers.

[Gandalf Parker]

Well what does "everybody knows" agree on?
Lower price equals many more players?
Download equals more online questions?
$50 crowd is a different demographic than $5 crowd? by age? by education? working force vs non-working?

Other than "making more money" what are the benefits of the $5 horde, and to who?
The support position is open.

[jBrereton]

As a European student, let me just say that if it wasn't for a very good Let's Play topic on the SomethingAwful site, I would have never considered paying $60 for it, especially with an extra cost to be able to download it for longer than about a week, and another from my bank for using a foreign currency. I don't regret my purchase, but if I had anyone other than myself to support, I wouldn't have bought it at that price.

The last real mainstream coverage I can recall for the game was about five years ago, when it got a relatively positive single page review in PC Gamer UK. The supply of grogs with $60 to spend on a game there's so little information about probably isn't exactly massive, especially when they're getting counterbilked by other devs making things like WORST JULY: SOMME. Manage the whole of the Somme, step by bloody step, shot by shot, 3ft hex by 3ft hex (features distressingly accurate pony damage model)'.

I doubt putting it out there for £25/30E/$40 is going to ruin IW.

As to the impact on the community - presumably if it gets released on Steam or whatever, there'll be forums for it there, so you can either ignore the povo scum/give new players some useful tips/recommend MA Marignon with a straight face, etc. etc.

[Valerius]

I dont HAVE to be non-insulting anymore but I generally try anyway. Not YOU but others over the years have pushed the money aspect rudely while Illwinter has explained the joy and job satisfaction aspect. The two do not go hand in hand. by some methods, they can even be counter.

As far as this goes, I've always liked the fact that IW was highly resistant to the "if you want to make more money you'll do what I say" approach. Which is why I mentioned that if there were an influx of players that could be motivation simply because you have more people who are enjoying and enthusiastic about the game (even if the increase in players was offset by a reduced price such that IW wasn't actually making more money).

That's pretty much the main potential benefit to me of selling more copies/having more players. Obviously I'm not getting a cut of the revenue so that doesn't matter to me. And even with the MP scene split among several forums there isn't really a problem filling games so I don't care overly much about that. And I'm not a competitive enough player to be much concerned with an increased pool of opponents to test myself against.

But probably more than anything it's just an academic interest in how the game will do with a different pricing/distribution model.

[Gandalf Parker]

It has been offered to Steam, GamersGate, and Desura. So far no responses.
Steam will automatically create a steam forum open to steam users.
GamersGate does not do forums.
Desura might likely become the "official" forum like Illwinters other game but the forum software does not thrill me.

Starting a forum is easy enough on sites like FreeBoards. Ive done so many times. Snag a domain name for $5 a year, use a site like FreeBoards to make a forum. Also for no money there are sites that will let you create a blog, a newletter, a guestbook, a chat room, a shop to sell things for the game. All can easily be grouped under that $5 domain name.
If anyone wants to do that I will gladly help them with it.

Positions still likely to be filled are Servers, and Wiki. Positions becoming available are Support, PR, Advertising, Newsletter Editor. Step on up folks.

[Valerius]

As a European student, let me just say that if it wasn't for a very good Let's Play topic on the SomethingAwful site, I would have never considered paying $60 for it, especially with an extra cost to be able to download it for longer than about a week, and another from my bank for using a foreign currency. I don't regret my purchase, but if I had anyone other than myself to support, I wouldn't have bought it at that price.

Out of curiosity, did you play the demo as well or were you sold from reading the LP? I will very rarely buy a game over $20 unless I can play a demo (the Dom 2 demo and Bruce Geryk's walkthrough sold me on Dom).

[Gandalf Parker]

As far as this goes, I've always liked the fact that IW was highly resistant to the "if you want to make more money you'll do what I say" approach. Which is why I mentioned that if there were an influx of players that could be motivation simply because you have more people who are enjoying and enthusiastic about the game (even if the increase in players was offset by a reduced price such that IW wasn't actually making more money).

That would be great. That would be wonderful. That could totally turn things around for the better. New players who could appreciate the game and ask for things would be fantastic.

As much as I have hoped for it I am afraid Ive been pushed into cynicism on our chances of that. But I would be thrilled to be proven wrong. If some people make an effort perhaps they could lead the way. Create an environment that would foster that.

[jBrereton]

As a European student, let me just say that if it wasn't for a very good Let's Play topic on the SomethingAwful site, I would have never considered paying $60 for it, especially with an extra cost to be able to download it for longer than about a week, and another from my bank for using a foreign currency. I don't regret my purchase, but if I had anyone other than myself to support, I wouldn't have bought it at that price.

Out of curiosity, did you play the demo as well or were you sold from reading the LP? I will very rarely buy a game over $20 unless I can play a demo (the Dom 2 demo and Bruce Geryk's walkthrough sold me on Dom).
I decided to just risk it for a biscuit. Worked out well.

[jBrereton]

As far as this goes, I've always liked the fact that IW was highly resistant to the "if you want to make more money you'll do what I say" approach. Which is why I mentioned that if there were an influx of players that could be motivation simply because you have more people who are enjoying and enthusiastic about the game (even if the increase in players was offset by a reduced price such that IW wasn't actually making more money).

That would be great. That would be wonderful. That could totally turn things around for the better. New players who could appreciate the game and ask for things would be fantastic.

As much as I have hoped for it I am afraid Ive been pushed into cynicism on our chances of that. But I would be thrilled to be proven wrong. If some people make an effort perhaps they could lead the way. Create an environment that would foster that.
I know this is a somewhat different case, but since a near-constant sale on the Company of Heroes series on Steam, the game's GameReplays.org site has never been busier, and there have been many, many tournaments, both from the fans and from the developers themselves, with cash prizes from the devs to keep it going.

Yeah, OK, there are new players who are piss poor at the game, but the increased player base has meant for much easier experimentation with the metagame. Which is nice.

[Soyweiser]

Well what does "everybody knows" agree on?
Lower price equals many more players?
Download equals more online questions?
$50 crowd is a different demographic than $5 crowd? by age? by education? working force vs non-working?

Other than "making more money" what are the benefits of the $5 horde, and to who?
The support position is open.

You are the only person making a problem of this. (literaly, I have never seen ANYBODY except you argue this. NOBODY execpt for you wants less dom3 players. (Even I somebody who used to chew people out on IRC for being stupid and not doing their homework want more dom3 players not less. Even if it bring more stupid questions. I rather have stupid questions than the recent silence).

Hell... I even welcome more piracy of dom3. So it has more players. I like the game so much that I do not even care if illwinter is paid. (And as illwinter does not care about the money, they should not care about this either).

[elmokki]

I wholeheartedly wish the new Dominions 3 price is under 20 usd (or eur thanks to price discrimination being so very easy). Preferably closer to 10 than 20 usd to be honest. I bet pricing like that would earn Illwinter more too, but supposedly they don't care about money. Well, yeah, there are two possible reasons that I find rational for stopping Shrapnel distribution: They want to sell more for more profit or they want to sell more so more people can enjoy the game. I bet that price elasticity of the demand for Dominions 3 is such that the optimal monopoly pricing is closer to $20 than to $30, but I can guarantee the game sells more with $20 than $50 price tag.

That said especially Steam but also Gamersgate and Desura will probabily give a hell of a lot more exposure to the game too than Shrapnel's obscure webshop.

The only single way that would make more players genuinely a bad thing is if you had to take newbies to multiplayer games due to servers being totally open - especially in very team play orientated games and public servers that is a real concern. However, in Dominions 3 you can choose who to play with should you feel like that.

More players means more players for multiplayer and also more user made content. That's just all good.

[elmokki]

I thought the "High price is actually better and Steam/Desura/Gamersgate are worse than Shrapnel" argument was extremely irrational, but apparently it was completely rational!

http://brokenforum.com/index.php?threads/dominions-3-finally-coming-to-steam.4042/

Pros and Cons. So far the sites that carry Illwinters other game havent thrilled me.
(Conquest of Elysium 3 on Desura, GamersGate, Steam for those interested)
But it does open positions for support and PR if anyone is interested. :)
Personally I want to snap up the PR if I can replace the referral income. The change shut down my income from my Dom3 shop.

No income from referring people to buy the game when it's on Steam/Gamersgate/Desura instead of Amazon etc! Personal gain does make all these arguments completely rational.

For most of the Dominions 3 community, potential players and even Illwinter Desura/Gamersgate/Steam and potentially (probably) lower pricing are just great. Obviously though people who profited from the old market price and distributor don't think so ;)

[Admiral_Aorta]

clearly dominions 3 should only be purchasable by people with a annual income of $400,000 or more, so as to keep out inferior players that we don't want to associate with. more money=better than after all.

[Edi]

One of the rationales for stopping distribution through Shrapnel that I can think of is retaining (or regaining, depending on what sort of contract they had) full control over aspects of the intellectual property.

All the past arguments about the pricing of Dominions 3 were based on the situation where Shrapnel Games was the exclusive distributor and controlled the price point. As Tim and Annette and Scott explained many times in many threads, for their business model, they found that the high price worked best. Not knowing any of the numbers regarding sales, all I can do is take their word for it.

The new situation with new distribution channels, once that becomes a reality, may well work very differently and we'll see. However, it is absolutely no use arguing about it here now, especially if the arguments are just warmed over rehashes of the earlier ones based on the previous setup, which no longer exists.

Personally, I regard anything that expands the community a good thing. As long as the people who join actually put some thought and effort into it, that is. Buying a game at any given price is absolutely zero indication of the potential caliber of the person to the community, as we have previously witnessed in the forms of the late, unlamented Lord Bob and numerous others of the same sort.

[Gandalf Parker]

but I can guarantee the game sells more with $20 than $50 price tag.
That has always been something everyone could agree on.

That said especially Steam but also Gamersgate and Desura will probabily give a hell of a lot more exposure to the game too than Shrapnel's obscure webshop.

Shrapnel has a PR person who did press releases for each version and delivered them to sites that rate games. As far as I could tell, it was pretty extensive. But as I said, it does make the PR position open for any fanboi who writes well. Search out the sites and make sure they know whats coming.

Steam does seem to have a large crowd who go there regularly and eagerly stays aware of any changes on that site. It will definitely have an impact. Many new players. There are many people here who pressed for the game to go to Steam and some of them said they wished it for the good of Illwinter, and the good of the game in general, not just a price break. Now can be their chance to step into it and be ready to catch that incoming flow of new players. Id love to see that happen.

The only single way that would make more players genuinely a bad thing is if you had to take newbies to multiplayer games due to servers being totally open
Well I have certainly done my part there. Ive pushed the server aspect in many forums and helped them get started. There are now easily half a dozen, and another dozen or so doing more private games.

That reminds me. I should scrape those threads.

[elmokki]

Shrapnel has a PR person who did press releases for each version and delivered them to sites that rate games. As far as I could tell, it was pretty extensive. But as I said, it does make the PR position open for any fanboi who writes well. Search out the sites and make sure they know whats coming.


Shrapnel press releases. Seriously? Does any media of any kind even make news based on those? Well, probably some niche internet sites might mention it. Just putting a -25% on the title and potentially getting it to Steam front page is probably hell of a lot more exposure than that.

That said best publicity for sales is probably just having it available easily (Steam etc), have a low enough price point for impulse buys and have friends who recommend it. First two Shrapnel did not have and the third is pretty much generated by the first two.

[Gandalf Parker]

Well they generated LPs which generated a lot of people. Whatever. Same thing, different words.

OK so if Steam is going to be the only PR then who is taking in the Steamers? I dont steam so I dont really know. Steam has forums doesnt it? And some sort of game server arrangement?
Problem solved?

[momfreeek]

With steam moving in the direction of linux support (http://steamforlinux.com/) dom3 could presumably have a more prominent standing in that market. Perhaps that exposure isn't significant next to the advantage of simply being available on steam for windows though.

[johan osterman]

Hell... I even welcome more piracy of dom3. So it has more players. I like the game so much that I do not even care if illwinter is paid. (And as illwinter does not care about the money, they should not care about this either).

Who has decided illwinter doesn't care about money? Just because they aren't money maximising homo economicus doesn't mean that they don't prefer to have more money than less money. That they mostly work on stuff because they enjoy it doesn't mean that they are saintly hermit developers that have turned their backs on the world and reject wordly goods. If they were utterly uninterested in monetary compensation they would obviously not bother with publishers at all. This is not a black and white issue where you either only work for money or only for fun.*

As an aside both JK and Kristoffer has for periods of time cut down on their day jobs, thus earning less in order to work on illwinter stuff. They aren't for the most part dependent on the money from sales, though I know JK at least would quit his day job if illwinter had ever generated enough to live comfortably of.

*I have some trouble expressing myself, but what I am trying to get at is that they make games for fun, and would probably do this or something similar wether people bought the games or not. But that if illwinter generated enough money to provide a comfortable living while still being fun they would prefer to live of that rather than punch the clock.

[johan osterman]

Positions still likely to be filled are Servers, and Wiki. Positions becoming available are Support, PR, Advertising, Newsletter Editor. Step on up folks.
I think you are vastly overestimating what sort of revenue illwinters sales generates.

[johan osterman]

Everything has its pros and cons. That discussion is also in many threads here. But the support level for DD goes up tremendously.
For the most part JK dosn't seemed to be swamped by the support requirements put up by COE's presence on Desura or steam, it seems to run relatively smoothly with modest interferance.

Edit: I might also add that COE3 sells decently without any active marketing, though obviously the 10usd pricetag is a factor in that.

[elmokki]

I wonder where the "Illwinter doesn't care about money" even came from, probably popped from a certain forum member during CoE3 development and features. Especially seeing how the games aren't freeware "money isn't the first priority" sounds so much more plausible.

[momfreeek]

Just the usual misunderstanding and exaggeration I'd have thought.
Illwinter has tried many times to explain their position on this. Money was never a motive. More money is unlikely to change what they do and why. They have day jobs and they do this for their own fun. It is driven and guided more by player appreciation.

[Gandalf Parker]

Positions still likely to be filled are Servers, and Wiki. Positions becoming available are Support, PR, Advertising, Newsletter Editor. Step on up folks.
I think you are vastly overestimating what sort of revenue illwinters sales generates.
OH I didnt mean PAID positions with Illwinter. Just that they could be filled if someone wanted to step up.

The complaints about how things were done in the past dont have to be JUST complaints now that people can step up and do them themselves. But thank you for showing up. I will gladly step back now.

[Gandalf Parker]

From a previous conversation about how more money might cause Illwinter to do a Dom4:

> And I am not sure Illwinter would dream and give enough love (and money)
to make it a reality

No, we dont dream of making a million sales dom4. Our funds are rather
limited and we both have full time jobs (teacher and computer engineer).
We arn't very interested in money, but we've earned a bit on dominions. We
make what we like and if others like it as well we are pleased. Currently
I'm more interested in making another game than working on a new version
of a game I have developed for 10 years. It gets boring, at least the less
creative parts such as interface etc.

I feel more gratified by positive feedback of a few people I like and
respect, than with vast sale numbers of a game I do not like, or haven't
made myself.


===================================

[quote]
Illwinters interest in these matters are to do stuff they enjoy and avoid
hassles, with the bonus of making a few bucks out of their hobby.

================================================== =======
[also Kristoffer O:]

About not knowing what to do applies to my normal salary as well. I sort
of dislike money and don't like to do much, apart from games that is. I'm
quite content with what I have.

=====================================
Disclaimer: This is from a large collection of quotes from Illwinter Devs, interns, and associates over the years. My only reference to money was in response to thoughts that more money was a reason to anything in the past, or might make major changes in the future. But of course, things change. I would greatly appreciate any new googlable articles and interviews especially if they shed new light on this subject.

[Valerius]

Gandalf, this seems to be a non-issue. No one is arguing that a "do this if you want to make money" approach is an effective way to make requests of IW. But that doesn't mean money is irrelevant to them. As Johan just pointed out, if it had no value there's nothing stopping them from releasing their games as freeware. This isn't a black and white thing were either money doesn't motivate you at all or it's your highest priority.

And I don't see any contradiction between what Johan just said and the comments you quoted. KO appears to tend more towards the ascetic and for all I know perhaps he'd also miss teaching. But JK is also a programmer in his day job and so while parts of game development may be boring I don't imagine all of the projects he works on day to day are that exciting either (and Johan has just said that if IW could make a living as a game developers JK at least would be interested in doing so). In short, making more money from developing games means that they might also be able to have more fun by giving up their day jobs to work on games full time.

So I'm really not sure what point you're trying to make. If it's that it's preferable to be courteous when requesting things from the developers, I think most people would agree with you. And I'd be surprised if IW feels alienated by the Dom community since I think the community has been appreciative both of the game they created and the continuing patches several years after the game was released. While a portion of the community doesn't like Shrapnel, I've never seen that spill over to IW. But appreciating what the developers have done doesn't mean the community can't make suggestions or offer constructive criticism. You give the impression that you think the game(s) are perfect as-is and any criticism or suggestions (regardless of whether the request is politely made or not) are an attack on the game/developers and needs to be countered or dismissed. I don't think that's a helpful approach.

[Gandalf Parker]

All I have ever asked is that people drop the expert opinions of "you will crash and burn if you dont", and replace it with please and thankyou.

Or at least, I used to. Pardon me for being trained over time to more cynicism and sarcasm. You defend well. Please, proceed.

[jBrereton]

Well they generated LPs which generated a lot of people. Whatever. Same thing, different words.

OK so if Steam is going to be the only PR then who is taking in the Steamers? I dont steam so I dont really know. Steam has forums doesnt it? And some sort of game server arrangement?
Problem solved?
Steam has forums, but they're generally not that heavily-used if and when there are alternatives, and tend to only flare up whenever every single server goes on fire or whatever, at which point they get dogpiled with helpful and completely unhelpful users Saying Words About How The Internet Is.

Steam itself is not so much a website (although I suppose it basically is a series of them) as an application which stores and promotes digitally distributed games, and also allows you to have a contact list you can message, and so on.

The kicker is that it has a completely massive base of users. Everyone who ever bought Half-Life 2 back in the day will have Steam (over 6.5 million, or roughly 15 Bristols). Many, many people who have no interest in HL2 but wanted access to the thousands of other games on there will have Steam.

I have no idea about how Valve cut deals on getting stuff on there, and they'll definitely want a commission. But the collection of games on there is extremely broad. I have a pretty alright, if not huge, array of games on there myself, which goes from the original Microprose X-COM series, to a game called AaAaAA!!, about throwing oneself off buildings for points, to Counter-Strike.

Regarding servers, it varies by game. Even if it provided its own for Dom3 (not massively likely), taking the P.W. Botha approach and saying 'those crazy steam youths with their jazz music and such can leave us alone, thankyewverymuch' is not the way to keep any game from becoming moribund, though.

[Ragnarok-X]

is user "johan ostermann" a relative to IW ?

[johan osterman]

I'm a relative to Kristoffer Osterman, who is half of illwinter. And I did some very minor work on various iterations of dominions, mainly writing fluff descriptions with a bit mechanics input.

[Ragnarok-X]

Ok, thanks. I was wondering how about how accurate your insight might me. If you know K or J, its probably valid. Thanks for answering.

[johan osterman]

I have been the brother of Kristoffer for 38 years and known JK for 18, so I should hope I know them better than people that perform internet exegetics on forum posts.

[Excist]

+15 bonus points for using exegetics in a sentence.

[Edi]

Indeed! I actually had to look that term up in a dictionary.

With regard to the English language and general online conversations, that usually happens about once or twice a year unless we dive into very specific areas that have their own professional vocabulary (such as medicine for one). This was the second time this year. The previous one was related to a specific type of pattern that appears on the fur of a specific breed of cat.

[Gandalf Parker]

JO would definitely be the freshest source of information we have had here for quite a while. It bodes well for the future that he has appeared.:cheers:
So on this forum, any questions would best be directed to him.

[brxbrx]

Are the invision forums no longer around, or something?

Also, a price drop means more players, which means a bigger, more active, community. Which means more mods, more demand for patching, and a greater motivation for patching. I'm not saying that Illwinter is suddenly going to plunge back into Dominions III, but as human beings, they may be more inclined to help out a more vibrant community than a stagnant one.
And, you know, more mods. Maybe some enterprising young coder will take an interest in the game's AI and release an unofficial patch. We can dream, right?

[Excist]

I think there actually are some mage AI mods out there, but I haven't seen any multiplayer games using them.

[Admiral_Aorta]

Are the invision forums no longer around, or something?

Also, a price drop means more players, which means a bigger, more active, community. Which means more mods, more demand for patching, and a greater motivation for patching. I'm not saying that Illwinter is suddenly going to plunge back into Dominions III, but as human beings, they may be more inclined to help out a more vibrant community than a stagnant one.
And, you know, more mods. Maybe some enterprising young coder will take an interest in the game's AI and release an unofficial patch. We can dream, right?

Dom3Mods is still active, more so than here in fact: http://z7.invisionfree.com/Dom3mods/index.php

Also I don't think a coder would be able to do anything with the AI no matter how enterprising, that stuff is all locked up in the game's exe file, there's no ini files or anything like that that can be edited. There have been a few attempts at improving the AI casting by making some spells less likely to be cast by unscripted mages through modding though.

[namad]

I am a raving lunatic.

Personally I am not a fan of desura, I've seen a lot of really jank stuff on their store, and I feel like sometimes well... desura is the wild west...buyer beware...

Steam though? yeah, I'm a steam fanboy.


It'd be awesome if illwinter would post dominions 3 for greenlight, I'm sure that fans would rally to support it. Many other popular games made it through the greenlight process quite quickly. If dominions 3 could get on steam before the xmas sale was over I bet they could move a metric fragle rock ton of units. dom3 could really move a lot of product on something like steam at like 20$ a pop. At least imo.


I'm starting to fully expect dominions 4 release in 2014 or 2015. I'm going to be wildly excited for no real reasons and run around my home screaming excitedly..brb

[Gandalf Parker]

HUZZAH!
It took a day and over-clocking my meds but I came up with a script to scrape a couple of years of my own threads off of Shrapnel forums (with any attached files). Just for safe keeping until we get some official responses.
http://dom3minions.boards.net/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1

[Pymous]

Some news about Dominions 3 on Desura?

[Edi]

Not at the moment. Johan had a trip abroad, not sure if he's back yet. The delay right now is at the Desura end, we'll see how it goes once Johan comes back and starts pushing them.

[Gandalf Parker]

He is back home. But Id still consider this to be the grace period for jet lag :)

[Edi]

Dominions 3 has now been published on Desura. The forums are not up yet, but they will be shortly.

In this instance "shortly" is to be taken that they will be put up tomorrow, as it's getting far too close to midnight here to effectively do anything today, but fortunately I have the day off tomorrow.

Meaning that I won't need to wonder about what to do...

[Cougar_DK]

Is it possible to activate Dom 3 on Desura?

[YellowCactus]

Was Norfleet a Developer? I just know he wasn't an honest player and had the game cracked.

[Gandalf Parker]

No not a developer.
Just a regular player according to history. But like many historical figures he has now achieved a mythological status. He appears in province names, and in dominions songs.

It is also rumored that he can still appear in games under an alias but of course thats not really likely. :)

[Edi]

Is it possible to activate Dom 3 on Desura?
If you mean the copy you purchased from Shrapnel, there is no news on that yet. As soon as there is, it will be posted.

[Dogboy]

I just ordered two downloadable copies from Desura. Haven't checked with gift recipients that it actually worked, but my card got charged $29.99

http://www.desura.com/games/dominions-3-the-awakening

[JonBrave]

I just ordered two downloadable copies from Desura. Haven't checked with gift recipients that it actually worked, but my card got charged $29.99

http://www.desura.com/games/dominions-3-the-awakening

Did you mean, $30 for the pair, or $30 each??

[Edi]

$30 each (meaning for each game key).

[JonBrave]

$30 each (meaning for each game key).

Yeah, but you read his post, I was making sure he wasn't getting 2 for 30 bucks. 'Coz over here we have an ancient currency so the price doesn't read the same.... :)

[Dogboy]

Yes, $30 / copy. Sorry to be confusing. Friends downloaded and are testing their pretenders now.

I just ordered two downloadable copies from Desura. Haven't checked with gift recipients that it actually worked, but my card got charged $29.99

http://www.desura.com/games/dominions-3-the-awakening

Did you mean, $30 for the pair, or $30 each??

[Gandalf Parker]

The 300 page Dom3 Manual is now available as a free PDF file from Illwinter.com

there is a new DEMO for Dom3 available from Illwinter.com
(eventually on Desura but that can take up to a week)

[JonBrave]

The 300 page Dom3 Manual is now available as a free PDF file from Illwinter.com


I always wanted that! I bought the hardcopy, and very happy with it, but searchable would be lovely. In the past it seemed very cloak & dagger if you wanted the pdf when you had not dowloaded, I never did understand quite why...