Effectiveness of TI (thermal imaging)

[EJ]

This is a general question open to ANY who want to reply. I recently played a pbem in which tanks had TI. I attempted to ambush a TI tank which was out in the open from behind while my tank was in cover(forest). It went bad....My unit did NOT even get a shot off before being killed in ONE shot...:doh: Is TI supposed to be THAT much of an advantage? I mean is it like a 360 degree "spidey" sense?

[Suhiir]

Any enemy unit within detection range (either the scenarios max or its own vision capability) may be detected.
Facing, smoke, cover, and many other factors come into play.

So it's not that TI is "spidey sense" but he got lucky (or you got unlucky) and he fired first.

[Imp]

Hard to say from the info given but generally no though they do see better to the rear than they should due to the way the game engine works.
What range
Was the enemy tank stationary or moving, its more likely to see you & get a shot off first the slower its moving.
How fast did you move, anything over 1 hex increases chances of being spotted by a fair bit.
Was any enemy infantry on the ground near the tank to act as extra eyes. This is the best protection vs a sneak attack it will most likely fail.
You can sometimes see this work clearly as a sort of ripple effect, nearby units react.
Any further activity in the area & the words out more units will react especially in a modern game with decent radios.

Probably infantry on the ground or he just got lucky if you only moved 1 hex.

[Miketee10022]

Any enemy unit within detection range (either the scenarios max or its own vision capability) may be detected.
Facing, smoke, cover, and many other factors come into play.

So it's not that TI is "spidey sense" but he got lucky (or you got unlucky) and he fired first.

Just a word of thanks! This reply was very helpful!

[Rosmarus]

As for realism. Usually tank commander is keeping an eye out with his periscope so that gives him 360 degrees of visibility (well not real 360 degrees, but you get the idea) while the gunner keeps an eye on the frontal sector of the tank with his imaging equipment.

[gingertanker]

IRL manny(most) tanks with TI dont have an independent TI viewer for commander...But this impossible to model in SPMBT. As for its effectiveness...In my prettey well educated opinion, TI gives you an amazing advantage. In my tank it ran all the time, day and night, even though it made an annoying sound. The biggest surprise to me when I first used TI was how helpful it is in broad day light. Targets that are hardly visible due to their colour or shape still have a heat signature. and with targets looking pretty damned small at ranges above 2000m, they are easier to spot in TI than by normal optics.

[EJ]

Thanks for EXPLAINING the significant advantage of TI. I never knew it was such a game changer in technology!

[Suhiir]

Night vision in general is a real game changer.

Think about Gulf War I.
Night attacks weren't made very often because visibility limited the attacker as much (or more) then the defender. But during Gulf I they were the attack of choice because Iraqi night vision gear (when they had any at all) was much inferior to ours.

[EJ]

Suhiir,

Do you pbem? We should get a game going sometime.....

[PPoS]

IRL manny(most) tanks with TI dont have an independent TI viewer for commander...But this impossible to model in SPMBT. As for its effectiveness...In my prettey well educated opinion, TI gives you an amazing advantage. In my tank it ran all the time, day and night, even though it made an annoying sound. The biggest surprise to me when I first used TI was how helpful it is in broad day light. Targets that are hardly visible due to their colour or shape still have a heat signature. and with targets looking pretty damned small at ranges above 2000m, they are easier to spot in TI than by normal optics.

I just thought about something. I don't know if you know this but; how does hot terrain interact with TI ? E.g. hot desert sand or heated asphalt. And I also don't know what generation of TI you have experience with, but how easy would you say it would've been to ID what type of tank you're looking at, etc ?

[Imp]

As far as I know degrades slightly but its really down to the TI system, if its kept cool enough it can still do its job.

[PPoS]

OK. I just thought that ground such as sand having been heated during the day should be warmer than a human. I mean, you can more or less burn your feet on sand.

[gingertanker]

The TI shows hotter objects as brighter, so if the temperature of the terrain is warmer than a human, the terrain will be brighter. but you would still see the human because of him being in a different shade than the terrain.

As far as IDing AFVs, I think for a trained gunner at decent contact ranges (1500-2000) telling western and eastern designs apart is quite easy. telling the exact variant can be very hard but than again telling the exact variant of tanks (for instance T-55 or T-62) at 2000 meters with the regular sights in broad day light is not that easy either....

[gingertanker]

Regarding AFV recognition with tank sights:
finally tracked down this photo...as far as identification goes:

2008, Lebanese Border:From the sight of my Merkava Mk2b, At a range of roughly 2300 meters, these two UN white painted(!) Leclercs are not so easy to tell apart from any other western tank. BTW they were impossible to see on thermal, which I still cant explain to this day.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/85681710/SANY0168.jpg

[Aeraaa]

Did they have IR coatings?

[gingertanker]

That is one explanation...But if you are painting a tank bright white why would you bother with thermal coating?

BTW just to make things clear we were only using their tank to practice fire drills(without shooting of course),we in way intended to shoot at them or harm them. Switches for main gun and coax were down. I just wanted to let my gunner get a feel for tank size targets after a few months without a decent gun range.

[gingertanker]

*in no way

[PPoS]

Thanks for the information, and for the cool image !