WinSPMBT and WinSPWW2 vs SP World At War

[Simicro]

Hi all,

First I want to present myself: I'm 43 from Paris and pretty new to wargaming. The only tactical turn based wargame I've played before is Flight Commander 2. I bought WinSPMBT and WinSPWW2 enhanced editions and at this stage I have read the manual and played the tutorial scenario.

The reason why I chose WinSPMBT and WinSPWW2 vs SP World At War:

:up: I find it amazing that 15+ years after the initial release, the game is still alive and supported by the developpers and the community

:up: The graphics (interface, maps, icons) looks better and are more classical than SP World At War which besides lack the hex grid

:up: Better compatibility with Windows 7

:up: The developers seems closer to the community

My question:

Why did you choose WinSPMBT/WinSPWW2 vs SP World At War by Matrix?

PS: thanks to the administrator/moderator who validated quickly my registration to this forum.

[glaude1955]

SPW@W is derived from SP3 which I did not like nor scale nor interface.
I bought SP3 just to start Sp2ww2 that required at the time to have the SSI disk.
Winspww2 is complete and accurate in various formations units.

SPW@W est issu de SP3 dont je n'aimais ni l'échelle ni l'interface.
J'avais acheté SP3 juste pour faire démarrer Sp2ww2 qui nécessitait à l'époque de posséder le disque SSI.
Winspww2 est plus complet et précis dans les diverses formations d'unités.

[Simicro]

Thanks for your answer glaude1955. By the way, as you speak french, are you aware of a french speaking community for WinSPMBT/WinSPWW2? I searched Google but did not find any.

PS: Ca fait plaisir de rencontrer un cht'i. Je suis moi même un ancien cht'i d'adoption ;)

[DRG]

Just as an aside, Cyberstratégie years ago used to regularly publish updates of the DOS version so I'm surprised there isn't some French speaking community on line for the game.

Don

[Simicro]

Right, I know the Cyberstratégie magazine but don't remember seeing it at the newspapers stands recently. And they don't seem to have a website... In case you are interested for your press releases, there is another french magazine dedicated to historical (war)games:

Vae Victis

It was founded the same year when Steel Panthers was released: 1995.

http://vaevictis.histoireetcollections.com/

[Imp]

I played SPWAW first & my main reasons for switching were

Better op fire routines
Realistic units, the speeds in SPWAW are wrong, especially vehicles.
This leads to no need for tactics as its quite possible to cover half the map in a turn meaning reinforcing is easy.

As a bonus its stable better looking has larger maps & just keeps getting better & better due to the dedication of the designers.

[JohnHale]

I also started with SP2WW2 - we're old, aren't we?

Tried WAW version too, but just didn't like the feel of it. And when the Camo Group started to expand the size of the maps - it was no contest!

[troopie]

I used to also play WAW. It doesn't work in Windows 7, even with the fixes, the artillery screen freezes up. So I deleted it.

troopie

[Simicro]

Thank you all for your feedback on the reasons why you chose WinSPMBT/WinSPWW2.

[Dion]

It was an easy choice for me. I just wanted to play Steel Panthes on my new computer, which ran on XP. Naturally I couldn't get my original version of Steel Panthers to work on my new computer, as the original version ran on DOS. I was going to get World at War and it just happened that MBT came out. I figured since MBT was newer it would be better, plus there was some features of MBT that I thought were better than World at War (plus it was cheaper). Bought the enhanced version, as it had even had more features. Then WW2 came out. Liked MBT so much I disided to by WW2 too.

[wulfir]

Why did you choose WinSPMBT/WinSPWW2 vs SP World At War by Matrix?


I made my choice long ago, even before SPWW2 was winSPWW2. :)

I played SP1 and SP2 back in the late 90s. Even played SP3 a fair bit. Stumbled across SP2WW2 and later both SPWW2 and SPWAW. I played SPWAW plenty back then along with Panzer Leo's H2H mod (that IMO improved the OOBs for the game and reduced some of the more gamey aspects).

Back then I thought that SPWAW had an advantage in game graphics and had a more active scenario producing community but was less advanced when it came to depth of the game when compared to SPWW2. OOBs, "long campaign", "historical feel" etc was always stronger in SPWW2. So I started experimenting with making maps and scenarios for SPWW2 and the new SPMBT. Back then there was a bit of a tug of war over what game was No 1.

I stuck with WW2/MBT because it had greater depth in nearly all areas and the game mechanics were less annoying - I also liked to play PBEM as minor nations, especially Poland, which was a lot more fun in SPWW2. Over time WW2/MBT kept evolving while WAW was abandoned. IIRC it had served its purpose as a cash cow for Matrix other projects or some such and was dropped, and now only a handful of loyal SPWAW players remain (tip of the hat to their efforts at improving the game - but it's not a contest anymore, SPWAW is inferior in every aspect to winSPWW2...).

[Double_Deuce]

Basically I ended up here with the same reasoning as what wulfir posted. I tried to split my time between both WWII versions but the continued development of SPMBT/SPWW2 is what sealed the deal.

Well, that and I like seeing Don/Andy smack people down on the forums saying something can't be done, never gonna happen and then a year later some of that stuff shows up in a patch. :D

[Simicro]

Well, that and I like seeing Don/Andy smack people down on the forums saying something can't be done, never gonna happen and then a year later some of that stuff shows up in a patch. :D

:D

And thank you all for your posts. I now have a clearer view on why you guys chose WinSPMBT/WinSPWW2 and I am happy that I made the right and best choice :)

[DRG]

Basically I ended up here with the same reasoning as what wulfir posted. I tried to split my time between both WWII versions but the continued development of SPMBT/SPWW2 is what sealed the deal.

Well, that and I like seeing Don/Andy smack people down on the forums saying something can't be done, never gonna happen and then a year later some of that stuff shows up in a patch. :D

Some things get done in a roundabout way. We DO NOT tell people something cannot be done then plan ways to do it.

Don ( Celebrating finally getting off dial-up..woo-hoo !! )

[Suhiir]

I've bought every variant of SP as it came out.
Can't say as I cared much for SP3 tho.

I was overjoyed when I came across WinSPMBT!
I still like to play SPWAW because of the Megacampaigns.

[Cross]

...and now only a handful of loyal SPWAW players remain (tip of the hat to their efforts at improving the game - but it's not a contest anymore, SPWAW is inferior in every aspect to winSPWW2...).

I recall debates from over 10 years ago - as I'm sure Wulfir does - on various forums, about SPWW2 vs. SPWaW. Back then it was more about which flavour you preferred, but Wulfir is right that there's no contest anymore.

Here's some of the data I dragged out of some of my old posts, which I've attempted to update a bit, but I know I'm missing plenty of features.

Windows compatible
SPWaW: Not Windows compatible
SPWW2: Full Windows compatibility

Screen size
SPWaW: 800x600 (full screen only)
SPWW2: Up to 1600x1200 or 1920x1080 (paid version)
SPWW2: Windowed or Full Screen

Map Size
SPWaW: 240x100 hexes (12x5 KM: 60sqKM)
SPWW2: 200x160 hexes (10x8 KM: 80sqKM)

Hill Levels
SPWaW: 3 hill levels
SPWW2: 15 hill levels

Zoom Levels (map magnification)
SPWaW: 5
SPWW2: 6

Maximum Units
That a player can deploy in a battle.
SPWAW: 400 units
SPWW2: 500 units

Maximum Formations
That a player can deploy in a battle.
SPWAW: 100 formations
SPWW2: 200 formations

Maximum Game Turns
SPWAW: 60
SPWW2: 90

Infantry Uniform Colours
SPWaW has 4 infantry uniform colours
SPWW2 has 5 infantry uniform colours (6 if you include snow camo mods)

Nations Available (OOB Breadth)
SPWaW: 27 OOB
SPWW2: 36 OOB

OOB Depth (unit choices)
SPWaW: German OOB: 260 units
SPWW2: German OOB: 980 units

Credit to Alby, Panzer Leo and others who have done some excellent OOB mods for SPWaW

Unit Classes
SPWaW: 113
SPWW2: 255

Sounds
SPWaW: 600
SPWW2: 150

This is one area where SPWaW is superior to SPWW2.
The SPWaW sound engine has better quality and a greater variety of sounds.

There is a SPWW2 sound mod which improves the quality of the SPWW2 sounds; and many of these sounds are better quality than the SPWaW sounds, but the mod is still only 150 sounds.

Artillery
SPWaW: Arty falls at end of own turn
SPWW2: Arty falls after opponent has moved

The artillery routine in SPWW2 is far less gamey.
SPWaW unrealistically allows you to adjust artillery onto fast moving vehicles.

Armour
SPWaW: mm
SPWW2: cm

SPWaW measures armour in mm instead of the cm used by SPWW2.
This really makes no difference to combat resolution results.
SPWaW models low penetration weapons (like Anti-Tank rifles) against light armour (5mm to 10mm) with more specificity.

Opportunity Fire
SPWW2: Unloading units attract ‘opportunity fire’
SPWW2: Opportunity fire filter (paid version)
SPWaW: Humans choose when/if to op-fire against AI

The SPWW2 ‘Opportunity fire filter' allows ATk guns (eg.) to choose target and range.
Although SPWaW players can choose when/if to op-fire against the AI, but some point out this gives human players an unfair advantage over the AI.

Misc Unique Features
SPWW2: PBEM Campaigns for 2 human players (paid version)
SPWW2: Shoot through smoke/ non-line of sight area fire
SPWW2: Paratroops draw ground fire while descending
SPWW2: Motorcycle troops can dismount and fight
SPWW2: Reversing Tanks
SPWW2: Infantry can attempt to take cover at end of move
SPWW2: Move points to load/unload infantry from vehicles, ends gamey relay tactics
SPWW2: Choose rally/retreat direction
SPWW2: Blast circle option
SPWW2: Timed objectives
SPWW2: Guns/vehicles parachute separately from crews
SPWW2: Company/formation identity numbers (paid version)
SPWW2: Snow camo for vehicles
SPWW2: Snowmobile movement class

SPWaW: Command Control (limits orders each turn)
SPWaW: Suspension damage
SPWaW: Weather (may restrict visibility and movement)
SPWaW: Time of Day (may restrict visibility)
SPWaW: * spidy sense (SPWaW weakness, fixed in SPWaW Enhanced)
SPWaW: Teleporting infiltrators (SPWaW weakness)
SPWaW: Numeric indication of number of men over squad/section
SPWaW: Reduced (not full strength) squads/sections option

Misc Superiority
SPWW2: Location specific map generation (SPWW2 is better)
SPWW2: AI sophistication (SPWW2 is better)
SPWW2: Ammo re-supply realism (SPWW2 is better)
SPWW2: PBEM security (SPWW2 has additional security level)



Cross

[jivemi]

Came a little late to the party, but nobody mentioned my pet peeve about SPWAW: Units that retreat or rout usually (always?) return to pin status when fired upon, unless they take casualties. Then they fire back.

Never made any sense to me. First of all it's illogical. Units retreat or rout in the first place because of suppression. Why should any further increase in suppression cause them to suddenly LOSE suppression and become pinned again?

Second, it's psychologically implausible. Soldiers quitting the fight are highly unlikely to change their minds if additional fire is directed their way. Rather, that would be an added incentive to get the heck out of there. So SPWW2 and MBT definitely get this right (along with a whole bunch of other stuff).