Poland OOB [Archive] - .com.unity Forums

blazejos

November 18th, 2016, 08:56 PM

In this month (November 2016) to polish army were added new training/second class attack aircraft’s

Alenia Aermacchi M-346 Master polish codename "Bielik"
http://polska-zbrojna.pl/imageslibrary/GetImage/41018http://polska-zbrojna.pl/imageslibrary/GetImage/41018

Aircraft with polish markings on top of wings they were introduced in 2012 but were absent from 1944 (soviet WWII tradition) until 2012 when reintroduced on F-16 first time since 1939

official website (polish language)
http://www.m-346.com/

Movie with polish camo and insignias aircraft
http://www.m-346.com/dla-mediow/aktualnosci/122-z-bialo-czerwonymi-szachownicami-na-wloskim-niebie

That remind me that is possible to add in polish OOB COIN aircrafts formation.
In 1946-1959 were used Po-2 and polish license build CSS-13 especially in actions against post AK underground for attack with small bombs and liaison.
Then period 1957 to 1965 PZL TS-8 Bies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PZL_TS-8_Bies
number of yak-11 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakovlev_Yak-11
and yak-18 https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jak-18 used for pilots training only but in case of WWIII were consider as a last and worst reserve for light attacks

And after 1964 until now we have times of PZL TS-11 Iskra Poland was only Warsaw pact country which produced own jet trainer instead use chosen by USSR Czechoslovakian L-29 Albatros. They were also sold to Indian AF

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PZL_TS-11_Iskra

In SPMBT we have icons of Iskra in polish and indian painting already included in shp file and master icon list

In meantime were introduced new model PZL I-22 Iryda to replace Iskra's but has some faults+bad management of whole program 8 were completed and used 19 never fully finished on production line all retried in 1996
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PZL_I-22_Iryda

for basic training but with some elements of fighting has some 4 hard points for armament max 250kg all so can be used in COIN combat mission is used since 1992 PZL-130 Orlik https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/PZL-130_Orlik

So Iskra remain until now and will be replaced by this new Italian aircraft

Pibwl

October 10th, 2017, 04:23 PM

Poland to upgrade Leo 2A4 to Leo 2PL:
http://www.defence24.com/312490,leopard-2pl-programme-showcased-modernization-package-for-the-polish-main-battle-tanks
...

026 Leopard 2PL - of course, like most of Polish AFV upgrade programs, it remained in plans only as for now :(
However, since mid-2014 Poland operates regular ex-German Leopard 2A5 (what I indicated three years ago), with better armour, which should definitely replace Leopard 2PL (photo is correct). They also use Polish-made HE ammo, like unit 023.

023 Leopard 2A4P - it's a detail, but it has inexplicable big weight. 2A4P seems not real designation (it was possibly some planned upgrade), but it represents the tank with HE ammo.

037 Krab - first battery was about to be delivered only in 11/2012 (Polish article: http://www.altair.com.pl/news/view?news_id=8763&q=krab). Earlier there existed prototypes in a factory, so probably the first date should be changed. Same for 759 Krab Platoon.

Finally, by 8/2017 there was delivered a complete battalion (on new chassis) and orders speeded up, so this unit should be duplicated with an ordinary radio code from that date. It is also known as AHS Krab (''armato-haubica samobieżna'' - SP gun-howitzer), but it doesn't seem official designation

In July 2017 the first batch of 120mm SP-mortars Rak was delivered - http://www.army-technology.com/projects/rak-120mm-self-propelled-mortar-system/ (Rosomak chassis, something similar to Russian #595 2S23 Nona-SVK), other photos: http://iu.wp.mil.pl/userfiles/image/regi3.jpg

That's all with news as for now. We could add newest brainchild of our (suspected...) MoD, a OT infantry (territorial defence), being a bunch of weekend amateurs with newest MSBS Grot rifles, but I wouldn't bother... (http://www.defence24.com/664005,msbs-grot-rifle-a-new-generation-of-polish-weapons-analysis). Unless we'd just copy a standard infantry squad and platoon organization and give them much less experience, maybe a bit more morale. Maybe it should be added in the future, since it seems to be a lasting element of the Polish Army..

btw: weapon #07 wz.88 Tanta AR is a typo, should be Tantal AR.

misc: unit 958 Orlik has a jet icon, while it is a prop plane (upper view: http://mazuryairshow.pl/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/PZL_130_Orlik-scheme.png, http://i.iplsc.com/pzl-130-orlik-tc-ii-glass-cockpit/0003KBMFINPKR4B6-C322-F4.jpg). Might be replaced with something generic (the best: grey), since they are rather not important, and their COIN use is highly speculative.

Pibwl

October 13th, 2017, 06:57 PM

023 Leopard 2A4P - ... 2A4P seems not real designation (it was possibly some planned upgrade), but it represents the tank with HE ammo.

A look back explained, that it first was a speculative tank with missiles. Therefore it should be named just Leopard 2A4 (or A4+, like unit 022) (or other name to indicate HE ammo). BTW, HE ammo was accepted in 12/2012, and entered full-scale production from 2014, so this tank might need a half-year shift (now starts in 6/12).

Unfortunately, Polish Leopards have too good ammo in the game (sabot pen. 86). In fact they used only German old DM33A1 (in German oob penetration 70, if it is weapon #100 120mm L44 WG87).

Only from 2015 there has been delivered mysterious Polish Mesko-manufactured APFSDS-T (no name, sometimes credited as Pz.531). There is an information, that it offers at least 500 mm RHA penetration (http://promilitaria21.home.pl/autoinstalator/joomla/innowacje-i-biznes/item/970-podkalibrowy-pocisk-przeciwpancerny-apfsds-t-120-mm ).

The same ammo is used be Leo 2A5. However, there was also a mention in one article, that along with Leo 2A5 there arrived a small emergency batch of "modern" ammo...

--------

Mi-24 helicopters:

It appeared, that Polish Mi-24s run out of (obsolete) AT missiles by 2012 (article in Polish https://www.trojmiasto.pl/wiadomosci/Mi-24-nie-maja-kluczowej-broni-n106076.html).

So, units 124 Mi-24D and 125 Mi-24W should end at 12/12 at best (Mi-24D weren't withdrawn by then).
BTW, proper icon for 125 Mi-24W is 3494, used for all terrains.
Also 124 Mi-24D should use the same icon 3487 for all.

126 Mi-24D - should be available until some 2022 (they are still in use), icon 3487 for all (rocket-only armed camouflaged Mi-24D helicopters were used in Iraq in 2004-2008).

098 Mi-24W - it differs in a higher TI/GSR 40, but in fact none of Polish Mi-24 had modernized aiming systems, so I believe it should be standard 30.

At least since 2004, Mi-24 after refit are painted green (icon 3485), so I suggest to make this unit available from 2004, with green icon and no missiles.

photos of green ones: https://skrzydla.org/photos/2010-11-20/80605.jpg
http://pzdata.cdn.aikelo.com/pzdata2/Images/25498
http://s3.flog.pl/media/foto/1857256_mi-24-na-sam-widok-mozna.jpg

There should be also created a variant with two underwing 23mm GSh-23L guns (weapon #187) - they were probably used since beginning, but got more popular on photos only last times. So I suggest it should be based upon green Mi-24W, available since 2004. Although photos usually show them with two gun pods only, they probably can carry half of their 57mm rockets as well.

(photo http://www.defence24.pl/uploads/images/6491e9391a81ddafc6de16a64fb8afb9.jpg)

DRG

October 14th, 2017, 07:43 PM

In July 2017 the first batch of 120mm SP-mortars Rak was delivered - http://www.army-technology.com/projects/rak-120mm-self-propelled-mortar-system/ (Rosomak chassis, something similar to Russian #595 2S23 Nona-SVK), other photos: http://iu.wp.mil.pl/userfiles/image/regi3.jpg

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=14960&stc=1&d=1508071099

Pibwl

October 18th, 2017, 05:56 PM

Beautiful :up:

Poland to upgrade Leo 2A4 to Leo 2PL:
http://www.defence24.com/312490,leopard-2pl-programme-showcased-modernization-package-for-the-polish-main-battle-tanks

...

026 Leopard 2PL - of course, like most of Polish AFV upgrade programs, it remained in plans only as for now :(

I must admit, I haven't checked progress in Leopard 2PL program, since they aren't in service yet. However, they were already ordered and deliveries of pre-series tanks are expected from 6/18.

The turret armour is said to be better, than in 2A5. Some claim, that it is 2A7 level (Polish article: http://www.nowastrategia.org.pl/demonstrator-zmodernizowanego-czolgu-podstawowego-leopard-2pl/), but this article http://www.military-today.com/tanks/leopard_2pl.htm says "it offers higher protection than turret of the Leopard 2A5, however it can not match protection level of the Leopard 2A7".
Now turret front anti-HEAT is much worse than 2A5 (130 vs 185). Turret extra sides are thicker, than in A5, and might be A7 level indeed.
On the other hand, there is no information, that hull armour is to be modified, so it should stay on 2A4 level.

Fire control system is not to be upgraded in any substantial way, apart from newer and better TI cameras (which don't affect FC directly, I guess). (article in Polish: http://www.altair.com.pl/e-report/view?article_id=820). I think that FC should be max 50 (2A5 has 45, German early 2A6 has 50).

New ammo DM53 is expected to be used (I hope, that the politicians won't decide, that they have a modernized tank, so they could save on ammo...). Therefore it should have better gun, than others. It should be given also some HE ammo (DM11).

An icon might need to be changed in a future, because a turret shape is different, but there are no good upper views as for now. I thought Turkish 7527 could do, but it has an extra side hull armour (and a longer barrel - but should it?... ).

The best kind of upper views are here: http://www.nowastrategia.org.pl/demonstrator-zmodernizowanego-czolgu-podstawowego-leopard-2pl/

A photo is 2A5 now. There are photos of a prototype only as for now, most interesting is: http://zbiam.pl/artyku%C5%82y/pierwszy-programu-leopard-2pl/

Of course, apart from Leo 2PL, there should be regular Leopard 2A5 available since mid-2014.

Pibwl

October 22nd, 2017, 06:28 PM

There appeared some more information about PT-91 Twardy tanks, basically confirming my analysis from this thread http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=48222&page=2 , but some things might be improved.

In a meantime, there were first of all articles in Poligon 3/2013 and Nowa Technika Wojskowa (nTW) 9/2015, and a deep analysis of Erawa ERA, made by author of the latter article: http://dziennikzbrojny.pl/artykuly/art,5,23,8486,wojska-ladowe,wyposazenie,cudze-chwalicie-swego-nie-znacie-czyli-polskie-pancerze-reaktywne-erawa (in Polish)

Now we have:

010 PT-91 Twardy (1/95-12/95) - first model without TI (#129 gun D81T 75, sabot 43)

There was an information in nTW 11/1995, that the first series tanks delivered in 1995 were fitted with TI as well, but on the other hand, some articles say in general about tanks with TI and with passive night vision only (without details as for numbers or dates, though). Prototypes had no TI, but it might have been bought in time for production machines... I'd tend to fit this tank with TI (a difference between unit 018 would still be radio code).

018 PT-91 Twardy (1/96-12/98) - basic model with TI.

021 PT-91 Twardy (1/99-125) - #161 PO-99 gun (sabot 54) - because of a small quantity of Pronit sabot rounds available, it should have only a couple of sabot rounds (say 4), and the rest - regular AP (which exist in #161 gun, and has a penetration 43, like sabot of #129 gun)

711 PT-91MA1 (1/99-125) - strange variant with weaker armour, PO-99 gun, better stabilizer, 3 top ERA - apparently added after my changes (...unless I overlooked it when I researched Polish OOB in 2012).

The last tank is wrong and I don't know what it represents - it has weaker basic armour than other PT-91, and even T-72M1. All of these should have the same armour. Neither the stabiliser has been improved (not counting a stabiliser diagnostic system fitted in all PT-91, which rather does not improve it lousy work). PT-91MA1 is an official designation of T-72s modernized to PT-91 standard, but it is never used in practice, and all are just referred to as PT-91, without much practical differences (BTW designations are rather contradictory in available articles). So it should be replaced with something else.

Conclusions:

All PT-91 should have ERA top armour (at least 5) - almost 50% of upper surface is covered with ERA, and more tightly fitted, than in Soviet tanks (https://www.the-blueprints.com/blueprints-depot/tanks/tanks-n-p/pt-91-2.png)

Survivability of all tanks might be improved over T-72M1 (5 instead of 4), due to new Deugra firefighting system (Russian T-90 has 5).

Instead of 4 SD and 2 VIRSS it would be better to change to 3 SD, 3 VIRSS (the tanks have 12 SD tubes and 12 VIRSS tubes).

There was finally published an information, that part of Erawa-1 ERA was replaced with Erawa-2, made of two layers of explosive, two thin armoured steel sheets and a ceramic tile. It was revealed, that during tests it decreased efficiency of early APFSDS, like Russian 3BM15, by around 57%, and even in one case prevented German DM33A1 from penetrating a front plate. Maybe it should be treated as advanced ERA then?... It is not as effective against modern long core APFSDS, but it has been suggested, that their efficiency would be lowered by 7-10%. ERAWA-2 is mounted on hull front and turret front and sides. There are no dates given, but most probably it was connected with a new configuration of turret ERA (on vertical strips with 3 blocks instead of individual blocks), introduced between 1996 and 9/1997 (when I've first seen such tank on MSPO defence industry exhibition ;).

So, I suggest to introduce a new model with advanced ERA on front and turret sides, basing upon unit #018, available from some 6/97 to 125 (it might replace unit #711). A photo should be 32261 from unit 021, with new ERA strips (photo 29495 of unit 711 shows early tank).
Also, unit #021 with Pronit sabot could have its armour upgraded.

There's a hope, that PT-91s will eventually be modernized by 2020 (in a way suggested in numerous articles from 1998 to 2015...), following Leo 2 modernization. We could add such tank now, with better ammo (500-600 RHA), good stabilizer and improved gun accuracy (thanks to new Slovak or Ukrainian gun models)*. I understand that you don't like future tanks (and I don't like either), but I guess, that with such modest expectations, and a modernization plans closing to reality, it won't be too much wishful thinking.

------
* BTW: according to a quoted article in nTW 9/2015, 2A46 gun mounted in T-72 up to Russian model A/M1 (and in other older tanks) had mediocre accuracy, due to bigger backlash and asymmetric recuperators. Its accuracy was much improved in 2A46M model, mounted in T-72B, newer variants of T-80, T-90 and yet better 2A46M-5 mounted in T-72B3. All 125mm guns in the Russian OOB have accuracy 13, apart from the gun from Armata tank...

DRG

October 23rd, 2017, 10:07 AM

Instead of 4 SD and 2 VIRSS it would be better to change to 3 SD, 3 VIRSS (the tanks have 12 SD tubes and 12 VIRSS tubes).

If you ( or anyone else ) is going to make suggestions for OOB changes you better make sure you understand how the game works in regard to that change and in this case you clearly do not. There is NO code that gives 3 VIRSS and you should have checked that before posting

Pibwl

October 23rd, 2017, 05:20 PM

Sorry, Don. :doh:

SaS TrooP

January 13th, 2021, 12:51 PM

Just to mention, for like 3 years now Poland has its 5th main military component, which is Territorial Force (Wojska Obrony Terytorialnej). They resemble danish Hemsvaern.

I believe it is roughly the time to include them in the OOBs? Also it should be mentioned that they use - as standard rifle - the Radom MSBS Grot AR that is also in early stage of implementation in standard Polish Army. It closely resembles ACR Bushmaster and probably be quialified for starts roughly as CZ Bren.

So far there are variations of company structures, but they should operate in three platoons, three sections each, and with 12 men in each section, including PK/UKM machinegun. RPG-7s are also available, however I am not sure if in every section.
However, WOT has or will have its own logistical system and it is aquiring weapons as independent buyer, thus they do not receive army stocks.
For this reason, starting with late 2021 first Javelins should be avilable for WOT, just as should be Spikes.
What I recomment is adding those types of formations:
WOT Company (on foot)
WOT Company (Mot) - on standard medium trucks, 2-3 per platoon (WOT will not operate heavier gear)
WOT ATGM Platoon (it can accompany the company, too) - with 3 Javelin or Spike missiles

Typical armament should be: MSBS Grot AR, UKM-2000, GNPO launcher and RPG-7. Typical section size of 12 men, probably qualified as Reserve Infantry and/or Guards Infantry.
WOT is being motivated on historical and quasi political grounds, I recomment it to have -5 for EXP (weekend soldiers after all but trained by professionals) but +5 to morale given their very function.

Could it be done?

DRG

January 13th, 2021, 08:12 PM

I suppose we could but are they significantly different in organization from a standard rifle company or platoon?

SaS TrooP

January 13th, 2021, 09:11 PM

They do - bigger sections (12 so far compared to ~6 nominally, there is no Polish "rifle" section per se as no unit except WOT is footmobile), diffent support weapons, different main service rifle... well, National Guard gets own formations even though differences are little. Scandinavian territorial force is also added for a long time. WOT already has about 25 thousand troops with 54 thousand to be there by 2023.

DRG

January 13th, 2021, 10:50 PM

Build the units if need be and put them in formations then post it here and I will check them over and try to get it in. That's the simplest way. Save it as OB 98

blazejos

January 15th, 2021, 11:06 AM

Build the units if need be and put them in formations then post it here and I will check them over and try to get it in. That's the simplest way. Save it as OB 98

Here is what I found about WOT (Wojska Obrony Terytorialnej)

That's true they are 4th military component after Ground Forces&Navy&Air force

Schematic of base unit

https://www.defence24.pl/cache/img/1000_470_matched__ozrlyv_09a82cbb2dfdc34f27cab13cf 4e5d8f9.jpg

Their official webpage google translated to English
https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=pl&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fterytorialsi.wp.mil.pl%2F&sandbox=1

Presentation from WOT about their structure and tasks. in Slide 11 is a Structure of WOT Light infantry company
https://slideplayer.pl/slide/13775754/

https://i.imgur.com/v2yETJM.png

Here twitter about their MSBS Grot AR https://twitter.com/terytorialsi/status/1178574095996375040

As is possible to see on that https://i.iplsc.com/star-266m2-po-modernizacji-m-in-z-nowa-kabina/0009864LAR0M9C14-C122-F4.jpgphoto their main Truck is STAR-266M2 deep modernisation and rebuilding of original STAR266 from 1970
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_266M

They also receive new trucks Jelcz 442.32 "Bartek" introduced to army in 2013 they buy especially 500 just for WOT in 2017 https://www.defence24.pl/mon-kupuje-samochody-ciezarowe-jelcz-trafia-min-do-wot-aktualizacja
Here is nice model of this truck https://pwm.org.pl/viewtopic.php?p=1030098
http://www.truck-spotters.eu/attachments/70246_0a484d62bf51fae8a20a676805d6c8eb99b00e0e

https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jelcz_442.32

And here in polish wikipedia is list of all weapons of WOT
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wojska_Obrony_Terytorialnej

They have also LMP-2017 new mortar 60mm itroduced in 2019
https://www.milmag.pl/news/view?news_id=4111

https://pliki.wnp.pl/d/38/08/62/380862_r2_940.jpg

https://www.radiomaryja.pl/informacje/terytorialsi-z-podkarpacia-pierwsi-strzelali-z-mozdzierza-lmp-2017/
And better photos of new mortar http://www.polska-zbrojna.pl/home/articleshow/26304?t=Mozdzierz-dla-WOT-u-#

SaS TrooP

January 15th, 2021, 12:42 PM

Build the units if need be and put them in formations then post it here and I will check them over and try to get it in. That's the simplest way. Save it as OB 98

Here is what I found about WOT (Wojska Obrony Terytorialnej)

That's true they are 4th military component after Ground Forces&Navy&Air force

Schematic of base unit

https://www.defence24.pl/cache/img/1000_470_matched__ozrlyv_09a82cbb2dfdc34f27cab13cf 4e5d8f9.jpg

Their official webpage google translated to English
https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=pl&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fterytorialsi.wp.mil.pl%2F&sandbox=1

Here twitter about their MSBS Grot AR https://twitter.com/terytorialsi/status/1178574095996375040

As is possible to see on that https://i.iplsc.com/star-266m2-po-modernizacji-m-in-z-nowa-kabina/0009864LAR0M9C14-C122-F4.jpgphoto their main Truck is STAR-266M2 deep modernisation and rebuilding of original STAR266 from 1970

They also receive new trucks Jelcz 442.32 "Bartek" introduced to army in 2013 they buy especially 500 just for WOT
Here is nice model of this truck https://pwm.org.pl/viewtopic.php?p=1030098
http://www.truck-spotters.eu/attachments/70246_0a484d62bf51fae8a20a676805d6c8eb99b00e0e

https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jelcz_442.32

Trucks can simply be medium/light trucks - SP games seem not to differenciate trucks too much, which is also obviously a good choice.
What you posted is old structure from 2017 - it it still changing, even now, thus I consider it MOST LIKELY that still 12 men sections are being upheld. I would however not rely on this too much, before posting my request and I did some intel. I found nothing that can give 100% confirmed status, my friend who is serving there is away at this point, it will probably be the easiest to ask him :P
Sidenote: WOT is 5th branch, Army Special Forces are the 4th :P

DRG

January 15th, 2021, 02:30 PM

Błażej..... the simplest thing is YOU build the units and formations in an R+D folder and I will integrate them into the OOB. I have little enthusiasm for wading though translated information and then putting my interpretation on it only to find out I was wrong.

For example. That platoon *seems* to suggest at least 2 of the 12 members are sapper/engineers which IS unusual and would make for a unique platoon but I will leave that up to you and when you are done if I have any questions I will contact you

Mobhack

January 15th, 2021, 03:20 PM

Just 2 engineers in a platoon would not be worth bothering with a separate game engineer class element either, really.

DRG

January 15th, 2021, 03:49 PM

No but a 10 man Rifle Squad + a 2 man Sapper section could be for example four 10 man rifle sections and four 2 man sapper/engineers sections

OR

four 10 man rifle sections and one 8 man sapper/engineers section to make up the platoon. The smaller unit makes them more vulnerable but more flexible in deployment

I will wait for whatever Błażej comes up with then adjust to suit the game if necessary

Suhiir

January 15th, 2021, 06:13 PM

The other issue that needs to be considered is the number of slots available in formations.

Sometimes you find you have to cut or combine small units (i.e. two MG teams combined into a 2-gun section) or something similar.

3x 10-man rifle squads + 3x 2-man sapper sections is 6 of the 10 available slots, this only leaves 4 for MGs or AT weapons or whatever.

SaS TrooP

January 16th, 2021, 06:50 PM

blazejos

January 17th, 2021, 08:55 PM

Done

Hope that will be accurate propostion. I made asssumption that in first year 2017 WOT uses old AKM what is visible on photos. Then in 2018 start to adopt 5.56mm MSBS Grot AR but process of conversion take propably around one year. So after 2019 they are only with new rifles. Next assumption is that UKM-2000 is in every Sec. Also unique weapons which they have is 60mm LMP-2017 Moratar introduced in December 2019. That is why I think that they may have something like Moratar unit and also use them for support Plt together with RPG-7. I made other assumption that training sappers take some time so this units apear after 2018 isn't necessary to create Sappers with AKM. Now their main AT weapon is RPG-7 that is why I include RPG-7 team just from 2018. They may have small number of Spikes during waiting when Javelin's will be itroduced posible that somwhere in next year 2022. Sniper is just from normal units meby is not necessary create a speciall WOT sniper unit. I also added Jelcz 442.32 Bartek which is used by normal army but also WOT so that is why starts in 2014 the same with Ford Ranger which is designed as a sucessor of standard utility car Tarpan Honker in regular units. Quads are also used by regular army.

https://i.imgur.com/LkaoPBf.png
I used free slots for new units formations and weapons so will be easy copy this to polish OOB without changings postions. There is also [obat002 WOT inside polish OOB.zip] where you can test how this units fit inside polish OOB already included. There inside Polish OOB exists formation Mech Militia Pl slot 390 which represents OTK [Obrona terytorialna Kraju] During Polish People Republic that was an militia army moustly disolved in 1989 but last units after many reforms lasts until 2008 when army was fully profesionalised and such secound line forces were disolved. So I propose to short this formation to 2008 then is gap until 2017 and WOT were again created as a answer to this what happens in Ukraine in 2014.

DRG

January 17th, 2021, 11:00 PM

OK thanks. I will take a look at all this tomorrow

DRG

January 18th, 2021, 02:53 PM

All in now. The only change I made was to the unitclass of the AT teams. Now UC212.

Thanks.

Don

SaS TrooP

January 19th, 2021, 01:48 PM

blazejos

January 23rd, 2021, 03:43 PM

Poland after WW2 never has a big enough aircraft industry to build their own military fighters or bombers aircraft's but rather was an license builder for aircraft's and helicopters which Soviet Union consider esential but not the high-tech at the times and need them manufature somwhere but not delay manufacturing of more esential aircraft's. Except this license production in Poland were designed some jet trainers like in Czechoslovakia. We lost competition for Jet Trainer for whole Warsaw Pact which became Aero L-29 Delfin but Poland became only country in bloc which have their own trainer TS-11 Iskra.

There is also icon of of ill fated I-22 Iryda which were own equivalent of AlphaJet. And TS-16 Grot which was an supersonic trainer. Program closed by soviet commrades because propably only a trainer with some stirke cability but to close to manufacturing serious fighter-bombers.
https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/pzl-ts-16.htm

https://i.imgur.com/ZRP9gga.pnghttps://i.imgur.com/wWepimO.pnghttps://i.imgur.com/saQ34KW.png

I will upload this in a while together with shp file and some propsition for OOB

DRG

January 23rd, 2021, 05:25 PM

Just FYI I am not interested in "what-if" projects or training aircraft for MBT so feel free to post it but I'm not interested for the master game unless they were actually used by active units

blazejos

February 12th, 2021, 08:06 PM

Just d'like to add description what are WOT units and why the were created for game if you retain slots files are named correctly. In every txt file is the same text.

blazejos

February 19th, 2021, 11:03 AM

Hope that this will be usefully I made a lot of new icons for aircrafts Su-17/20/22 to cover swep wings ability like in F-14 for attack with two different speeds. Yak-11 because is direct descadent of Yak piston fighters meaby used for training but also usefully as coin aircraft. Iryda,Bies,Grot mentioned earlier polish coin aircrafts. Whole familly of Yak-12& Wilga AOP so no more Cesna and Piper Cub capitalistic icons in Warsaw Pact country's. Orlik is also there modern polish light trainer and COIN atacker. When I repainted Alenia Aermacchi M-346 I found thatYak-130 is exactly the same aircraft with slight differences so he was also redone with corect camo's. And best is on the end Agricultural machinery pesant's aircraft's Kruk, Dromader & Belphengor to be used in forgoten wars as fly technicals. You may laught from this slow rural aircraft's but as I read they have secound darker usage than cropsdusting which is not covered by game. Agricultural aircraft were intended to be used as a doomsday devices in case of full total Word War. Simple in the same way like pesticites the can spray poisonous chemicals
and deadly plages from military labs. In Poland are rumor's that in 1970's M-15 Belphengor which was radiculus from economical point of view (jet cropduster) was build with this secound role in mind as [Ultima ratio regum]

I also add OOb with covers export of Polish (Mig) Lim to different coutry's. Usage of An-2 (which is also agricutural) in different fogotten wars from vietnam to Bosnia. As ersatz bomber
but also as simple Gunship. Here I also d'like to propose Po-2 with one gun as primitive gunship. I read many stories that during fight with post AK underground in Poland Po-2 was used to spot and attack them continosly so I supouse that this was typical usage in internal wars in Estern Europe and Asia especially against week oppostion and internal enemies of comunistic states. Propably this role meaby after 1960 was taken by An-2 proposed in this oob also as erzatz gunship. There is also M346 for Poland and Israel and Mi6 which I know was only in small number in Poland exactly 3 pices but will be nice to have hevy helicopter I found great photo of this helicopter. There is also TS-11 Iskra icons alredy in game which was a trainer but also basic coin attacker with different variants of weapons for Poland and India. Iryda iskra replacemnt which wasn't only prototype but in small number was in use in 90's in polish army and also orlik which is trainer but also small coin attacker in three variants, also all variants of Yak-12 AOP I know there is no space for this small aircrafts in rusian OOB but may fit to Red OOB to represets their evolution of utility aviation. Cropdusters if you found them usefully may find thir way to red or green OOB to represents this makeshift bombers used on small wars.

// Icon0191.shp - H
{19100, -1}, //8482 Su-17M2/20/22 wings in fast flight postion (silver)
{19101, -1}, //8483 Su-17M2/20/22 wings in slow flight postion (silver)
{19102, -1}, //8484 Su-17 soviet wings in fast flight postion (silver)
{19103, -1}, //8485 Su-17 soviet wings in fast flight postion (green-brown-sand camo)
{19104, -1}, //8486 Su-17M2 SEAD with Kh-25 soviet wings in slow flight postion with (green-brown-sand camo)
{19105, -1}, //8487 Su-17M2 SEAD with Kh-25 soviet wings in fast flight postion with (green-brown-sand camo)
{19106, -1}, //8488 Su-17M2 bombs soviet wings in fast flight postion (green-brown-sand camo)
{19107, -1}, //8489 Su-22 unguided rockets wings in slow flight postion (green-black-red brick camo)
{19108, -1}, //8490 Su-22 SEAD with Kh-25 rockets wings in fast flight postion with (green-black-red brick camo)
{19109, -1}, //8491 Su-22 bombs wings in slow flight postion (green-brown-red brick camo)
{19110, -1}, //8492 Su-22 SEAD with Kh-25 rockets bombs wings in fast flight postion (green-brown-red brick camo)
{19111, -1}, //8493 Su-22 SEAD with Kh-25 rockets wings in slow flight postion (green-brown-desert camo)
{19112, -1}, //8494 Su-22 with bombs wings in fast flight postion (green-brown-desert camo)
{19113, -1}, //8495 Su-22 Czechoslovakia with bombs wings in slow flight postion (green-brown camo)
{19114, -1}, //8496 Su-22 Czechoslovakia SEAD with Kh-25 rockets wings in slow flight postion (green-brown camo)
{19115, -1}, //8497 Su-22 Czechoslovakia SEAD with Kh-25 rockets wings in fast flight postion (green-brown camo)
{19116, -1}, //8498 Su-22 DDR with bombs wings in fast flight postion (green-brown-sand camo)
{19117, -1}, //8499 Su-22 Luftwaffe after german unification in slow flight postion (green-brown-sand camo)
{19118, -1}, //8500 Su-22 Poland after 2012 SEAD with Kh-25 rockets wings in slow flight postion (greay-blue-gray camo)
{19119, -1}, //8501 Su-22 Poland after 2012 with bombs wings in fast flight postion (greay-blue-gray camo)
{19120, -1}, //8502 Yak-11 (silver)
{19121, -1}, //8503 Yak-11 (green)
{19122, -1}, //8504 Yak-11 (desert)
{19123, -1}, //8505 Yak-11 (desert-brown)
{19124, -1}, //8506 Yak-11 Soviet (silver)
{19125, -1}, //8507 Yak-11 Soviet (green)
{19126, -1}, //8508 Yak-11 North-Korea (silver)
{19127, -1}, //8509 Yak-11 North-Korea improvised ground atack (green)
{19128, -1}, //8510 Yak-11 Polish (silver)
{19129, -1}, //8511 Yak-11 North-Vietnam (green)
{19130, -1}, //8512 Yak-11 China PRC (silver)
{19131, -1}, //8513 Yak-11 Czechoslovakia (silver)
{19132, -1}, //8514 Yak-11 Eastern Germany DDR (silver)
{19133, -1}, //8515 Yak-11 Austria (silver)
{19134, -1}, //8516 Yak-11 Algeria (desert)
{19135, -1}, //8517 Yak-11 Egypt (silver)
{19136, -1}, //8518 Yak-11 Egypt (desert-brown)
{19137, -1}, //8519 Yak-11 Yemen (desert-green)
{19138, -1}, //8520 PZL I-22 Iryda Polish (grey)
{19139, -1}, //8521 PZL I-22 Iryda Polish (grey-green-desert camo)
{19140, -1}, //8522 TS-8 Bies Polish (silver)
{19141, -1}, //8523 TS-8 Bies Indonesia (silver)
{19142, -1}, //8524 TS-16A Grot (polish x-plane from 60's hypersonic fighter-bomber)
{19143, -1}, //8525 TS-16B Grot (polish x-plane from 60's hypersonic trainer-fighter bomber)
{19144, -1}, //8526 LWD Junak (green)
{19145, -1}, //8527 Yak-10 soviet (green)
{19146, -1}, //8528 Yak-12 (green)
{19147, -1}, //8529 Yak-12 (desert)
{19148, -1}, //8530 Yak-12 (silver)
{19149, -1}, //8531 Yak-12 soviet (green)
{19150, -1}, //8532 Shenyang type 5 [licensed Yak-12] China PRC (green)
{19151, -1}, //8533 Yak-12A (silver)
{19152, -1}, //8534 Yak-12A (green)
{19153, -1}, //8535 Yak-12A (desert)
{19154, -1}, //8536 Yak-12M (green)
{19155, -1}, //8537 Yak-12M (desert)
{19156, -1}, //8538 Yak-12M (silver)
{19157, -1}, //8539 Yak-12M soviet (green)
{19158, -1}, //8540 PZL-101 Gawron (green)
{19159, -1}, //8541 PZL-101 Gawron (desert)
{19160, -1}, //8542 PZL-104 Wilga (green)
{19161, -1}, //8543 PZL-104 Wilga (desert)
{19162, -1}, //8544 PZL-104 Wilga (silver)
{19163, -1}, //8545 PZL-104 Wilga (green-white winter)
{19164, -1}, //8546 PZL-104 Wilga (green-dark green camo Polish)
{19165, -1}, //8547 PZL-104 Wilga (grey Polish)
{19166, -1}, //8548 PZL-104 Gelatik (jungle camo Indonesia license build)
{19167, -1}, //8549 PZL-104 Wilga (desert-green Egypt)
{19168, -1}, //8550 PZL-104 Wilga (grey-green Yugoslavia before civil war)
{19169, -1}, //8551 PZL-104 Wilga (green-dark brown-sand Republika Srpska Air Force of the fraction in Bosnian civil war)
{19170, -1}, //8552 PZL-104 Wilga (Hungary Peoples Republic)
{19171, -1}, //8553 PZL-104 Wilga (Polish Border Guard)
{19172, -1}, //8554 PZL-104 Wilga (Estonian)
{19173, -1}, //8555 PZL-104 Wilga (Latvian)
{19174, -1}, //8556 PZL-104 Wilga (Lithuanian)
{19175, -1}, //8557 PZL-104 Wilga (Moldova)
{19176, -1}, //8558 PZL-130 Orlik
{19177, -1}, //8559 PZL-130TB Orlik (Polish gray before 2012)
{19178, -1}, //8560 PZL-130TC Orlik (Polish gray after 2012)
{19179, -1}, //8561 PZL-130TC-2 Orlik (Polish gray-light gray)
{19180, -1}, //8562 Alenia Aermacchi M-346
{19181, -1}, //8563 Alenia Aermacchi M-346 (Italy)
{19182, -1}, //8564 Alenia Aermacchi M-346 Lavi (Israel)
{19183, -1}, //8565 Alenia Aermacchi M-346 Bielik (Poland)
{19184, -1}, //8566 Yak-130 (dark grey)
{19185, -1}, //8567 Yak-130 (green)
{19186, -1}, //8568 Yak-130 (desert)
{19187, -1}, //8569 Yak-130 (Rusian gray-blue-dark blue camo)
{19188, -1}, //8570 Yak-130 (Algerian desert-brown camo)
{19189, -1}, //8571 Yak-130 (Belorusian green-dark green-grey camo)
{19190, -1}, //8572 Yak-130 (Laos green-desert-bright green camo)
{19191, -1}, //8573 Yak-130 (Bangladesh grey-dark grey camo)
{19192, -1}, //8574 PZL-106 Kruk (agritractor livery)
{19193, -1}, //8575 PZL-106 Turbo Kruk (agritractor livery)
{19194, -1}, //8576 PZL M-18 Dromader (agritractor livery)
{19195, -1}, //8577 PZL M-18 Dromader (sand-brown-green Croatia ersatz bomber war in yougoslavia)
{19196, -1}, //8578 PZL M-15 Belphengor (agritractor green camo)
{19197, -1}, //8579 PZL-230 Skorpion (polish x-plane from 90's cheap small battle support plane)

blazejos

March 9th, 2021, 06:29 AM

There are photos of Leopard 2PL on their first field deploy by army on Training Ground in Orzysz Feb 2021 in nice winter Camo. Is possible that this is actually an standard winter painting for all polish tanks.

https://www.defence24.pl/upload/2021-02-18/qoqbsu_1wbpancleopard2pl8.jpg
https://radioolsztyn.pl/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Fot.-WBP-5-1320x744.jpg

More photos
https://www.defence24.pl/leopardy-2pl-na-poligonie-w-orzyszu-foto
https://radioolsztyn.pl/leopardy-na-poligonie-w-orzyszu-zmodernizowane-czolgi-przeszly-chrzest-bojowy/01555752

And here polish tanks from WW2 t-34 on Pomerania Wall 1945 and Topas 50's/60's use quite similar pattern so not so many changes since WW2

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/nKLsuTKSaUmleuuDGv_OGf6hnQD5d4ThqweN8QA1Bcs=w481-h553-no

blazejos

June 17th, 2021, 08:58 AM

All in now. The only change I made was to the unit class of the AT teams. Now UC212.

Just do like to mention that Javelin ver.F was today [17 June 2021] first time used by WOT on proving ground. Poland ordered FGM-148F JAVELIN in number of 180 launchers for WOT.

Here article and also photo of WOT soldiers with Javelin :D
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=pl&tl=en&u=https://www.wojsko-polskie.pl/articles/tym-zyjemy-v/2021-06-17d-system-javelin-trafia-do-wojsk-obrony-terytorialnej/

blazejos

August 4th, 2021, 04:38 PM

Just prepared new icon for Krab

But I must explain long story of AHS Krab self-propelled artillery

Firs polish government buy license for build AS-90 towers from UK in 1999 then "Huta Stalowa Wola" build UPG-NG chassis for that tower in 2001. UPG-NG is build on modified SUM-Kalina minelayer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPG_Kalina In 2001 first prototype was build and until 2011 three prototypes were build only. Around 2010 BAE Systems stop to build Gun barrels for AS90 so for next series 8 vehicles build in 2011 French Nexter 52 155mm guns were chosen. In 2014-2016 16 vehicles were build and barrels were again changed this time to Rhainmetal build on license in HSW. In 2015 because problems with UPG-NG chasis cracks. Chassis from South Korean K9 Thunder were chosen and since then full scale production starts with K9PL chassis build in Poland and that is now main version of Krab 155mmm. So as you see Krab is like a military Lego set tower from UK chasis domestic then from South Korea and gun British then French then German and Polish equipmment inside etc.

Early small scale production chassis UPG-NG Krab after 2016 this earlier variant chassis were scraped and towers put on K9 so became K9PL
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f8/%C5%9Awi%C4%99to_Wojsk_Rakietowych_i_Artylerii_201 2._ASH_Krab_1.jpg

K9PL Krab variant build after 2016 with Rheinmetal 155mm gun now main production variant of Krab
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/66/Warszawa_%E2%80%93_defilada_%E2%80%9ESilni_w_sojus zach%E2%80%9D_%285%29.JPG

As for now OOB represent this small scale production UPG-NG and icon also
which only 16 were build. So I d'like propose after 2016 this new version K9PL Krab which is now build 72 vehicles and full contract is for 120
Here icon for this new version
https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=16485&stc=1&d=1628108908

blazejos

October 2nd, 2021, 05:25 AM

Just on the beginning of this Year Leopard 2PL was introduced into units and start to be used. But Polish industry prepared new modernized variant called Leopard 2PLM1
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ZqSUZXY29B4/YTjfZf4FMQI/AAAAAAABZiA/I_WkNO4QbF8_jcsu3PB0_SziPVrKnPzvQCLcBGAsYHQ/w640-h480/13.jpg

here what is modernised according to this source https://thedeaddistrict.blogspot.com/2021/09/poland-unveiled-for-first-time-leopard.html
Additionally, the Leopard 2PL MI version includes: implementation PIX function, introduction function selection the last or first echo the laser range, introduction automatic system extinguishing fire fighting in compartment APU, Introduction system cold start to the engine without restart electronics devices, micro charging battery in battle tank during storage, electronics compartment active cooling, preparation electrical installation for identification Friend or Foe.

Pibwl

December 7th, 2021, 06:02 PM

ZU-23-2 AA guns

An issue of ZU-23-3 gun mutations is vague, because Polish Army doesn't bother to inform citizens which versions and with what sights they use, but for Wikipedia purpose I researched the subject from several articles in military press about sights development for these guns.

088 ZU-23-2 AA-Gun (basic Soviet variant FC=5) - Poland didn't buy a license to manufacture ZAP-23 opto-mechanical vector sights, only basic optical sights, so it might have had worse FC, than Soviet version (now all have 5). On the other hand, maybe ZU-23-2 guns with ZAP-23 sights should have better FC, than weak 5? (worse than WWII 37mm gun or 40mm Bofors, which have 10)..
Here's Bulgarian manufacturer's description: https://arconpartners.net/anti-aircraft-automatic-sight-zap-23/

I don't know however (and maybe nobody knows) how rich were versions sold to numerous African or Asian countries - while we can assume, that Warsaw Pact (except for Poland) had standard ZAP-23 sights, which is mentioned in Russian publications as standard equipment. Poland wanted to develop own sights instead - what took 20 years...

79 ZUR-23-2S Jod (Polish ZU-23 combined with Strela missiles and new sights GP-1R of 1988, FC=15) - vision should be 0 (15), just like basic ZU-23 (no night sights at all).

619 ZU-23-2E (improved AA gun with new CKE-1 sights of 2002, FC=20) - name should be ZU-23-2K in fact (E was a proposal with central battery fire control, while K have new individual collimator sights).
Now it has vision 40, while it should have 0 from the start, and 30 only from 2004 (CKE-1N sights with passive night vision). Vision 40 was obtained only in 2016 (CKE-1T sights with TI). These versions might be added.

Icon should be 1979 (ordinary ZU-23, without missiles)

BTW: thanks to CKE sights and new Polish APDS ammo, efficient range grew to 5500 m, but I don't know if it matters.

95 ZUR23-2KG Jodek (Polish ZU-23 with Grom missiles of 2002) - FC should be 20 (now 15), like unit 619 of the same year with the same family sights CKE-2 (it can engage targets flying 500 m/s, comparing to 300 m/s in case of ZAP-23).
Vision should be 0, and 30 only from 2004 (CKE-2N sights, as above)

169 ZUR23-2KG Jodek - it might represent version with more advanced CP-1 sights with laser RF, but it has no TI, only passive night channel (now: vision 40).
It was introduced in 2007 (or more safely: 2008) (now: 106).

I would suggest to improve FC to 25 (now 20) - CP-1 programmable sights are told to be big improvement, able to fight guided bombs and drones.

Pibwl

December 7th, 2021, 06:41 PM

SAMs and MANPADS

85 Aster 30 - well, seems that for 5 years we should already have Aster SAM... of course there aren't any and there are no such plans anymore.

611 Loara SP-SAM - with Crotale - pure fiction

201 Grom Team - basic version was delivered from 2002 according to newest publications (now 101).
Picture is Strela - photos are eg. https://wml.wat.edu.pl/index.php/historia-zkr/pzrgrom-zkr.html , https://www.mesko.com.pl/zestawy-przeciwpancerne-przeciwlotnicze-i-rakiety/zestawy-przeciwlotnicze.html

205 Grom Team - initial version, ending date should be extended at least until 2001 (see above), or rather until some 2005. Better name is Grom-I Team to differentiate from Grom. Picture is Strela

weapon #126 Grom-I SAM - kill statistisc should be the same as #127 Grom - there is no information, that the warhead changed (now they are like old Strela-2). On the other hand, it seems, that warhead size of both should be 4, not 5, like Igla and most MANPADS (it has 1.27 kg - French Mistral with warhead 5 has 2,95 kg).
Accuracy probably should be lower - homing head was basing upon Russian export (simpler) Igla, so it should probably be 118 at best (like basic Russian Igla), maybe even 110-115 (now 120).
In #127 Grom the homing head was much improved by the Polish and it is 130 (justified).

The weapon is also used by Georgia (the same issue with Strela picture, unit 351 Grom SAM)

There appeared recently new modern Piorun SAM - a development of Grom (formerly Grom-M), delivered from 2019. It is said, that accuracy and target detection have been much improved, to world's best level - although Grom has already accuracy 130, and I don't know if any MANPADS in the game is better than 130. Range was enhanced to 400-6500 m. The launcher is fitted with TI sights.

612 Poprad, 614 Zubr P - it is the same Poprad SAM system in fact, but 612 is prototype on Iveco truck, and 614 is final vehicle on ligtly armoured Zubr chassis, and it is the only one that should be taken into account - with Poprad name. However, icon 76 of 612 Poprad is better.
Two vehicles of trial series (on Zubr chassis) were tested by the Army in 2014, but series vehicled were commissioned only from 2018.
One vehicle should be armed with #126 Grom (not Grom-I), and another with Piorun SAM, first fired from 2020. There are 8 missiles carried.
There should be no machine gun, especially ancient DsHK.
It has TI head and laser RF. But it can't swim.
The launcher itself is not armoured, so maybe it should not have armour all around.
Size 3 would be more appropriate for mid-size truck (now 2) (same for unit 726 Zubr scout vehicle)

BTW, from 11/07 Indonesia uses a small number of Poprad systems with Grom missiles on unarmoured 6x6 Land Rover chassis, and ZUR23-2KG-I AA guns, also with Groms (Polish 169) - https://www.armyrecognition.com/indo_defence_2010_news_pictures_video_actualites/bumar_at_indodefence_2010_with_kobra_short-range_modular_air_defence_system_820.51_kb_polish_ poland.html

Polish export name is Kobra, reportedly they are named Aster in Indonesia, but I can't confirm it. As far as I know, only 8 vehicles were delivered in two batches by 2010.

blazejos

December 8th, 2021, 03:51 PM

Here best photos of Żubr MRAP vehicle which I found on AMZ Kutno official page ZubrP is AA version http://amz.pl/pojazdy-wojskowe/opancerzone/zubr-p/

And here only drawings of this vehicle found primitive but best what we have

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50957042998_30050a495d_c.jpg

DRG

December 9th, 2021, 06:53 AM

http://www.military-today.com/apc/zubr_mrap.htm

blazejos

December 9th, 2021, 07:19 AM

So according to AMZ Kutno website and wikipedia https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMZ_%C5%BBubr they are now two versions

and also this article https://milmag.pl/mspo-2021-system-obrony-przeciwlotniczej-bliskiego-zasiegu-od-pit-radwar/

Żubr P Poprad (AA version)
- with Grom rockets (older variant)
- new Piorun AA rockets (new production vehicles)
Don't know if all were modernised all two version existing together probably this second and all will be modernised to Piorun when older rockets will be used
- variant with radar Soła & Bystra
- WG-35 FOO vehicle for battery of Poprad

Żubr WD (command variant)

Żubr MMSR (with radio-location device N-26A/MMSR)

Here how Poprad unit my looks like in organisation
https://milmag.pl/2021/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/PIT_01-1340x804.jpg

Pibwl

December 11th, 2021, 07:35 PM

Misc.

66 Heavy Truck - typical US truck picture, strange-looking for Poland, should be replaced eg. with 29168 (Zil-131) or better 29388 (modern Polish Jelcz)

77 HMMWV Trynka AT - there are no variants with Spike and 12.7mm MG. There are used M1045 with Spike only, named Tumak-5, not Trynka https://modelwork.pl/topic/11777-hmmwv-w-wojsku-polskim/
Possibly uncovered 98 UKM-2000 CMG could be mounted in need, although there is no such mention...

580, 583 HMMWV Trynka - Trynka was only proposed 12.7mm MG variant. It should be renamed Tumak with 98 UKM-2000 CMG

921 HMMWV [utility vehicle] - utility variant is not armed (especially old SGM MG is not used).

158,159,951 F-16c Jastrzab - F-16C Jastrzab would be better and consistent.

191 Hibneryt-P SPAA - its ZU-23-2 gun should be updated according to 619 ZU-23-2E(K) standard (FC=20, RF=10), with night vision. Used already from around 10/07 (now 1/08)

Ordinary unarmoured 200 Hibneryt also used better ZU-23-2K guns when they were available, but I think that Hibneryt-P would be enough.

581 Irbis - not accepted, sole prototype.

545 Light Truck - picture looks strange for Poland. In fact there were no 4x4 light trucks for 12 men used in Poland (only jeeps or medium trucks). Anyway, since it is used among others to tow Vasilek mortars in the game, the photo could be changed to GAZ-66 32174, used in a small number, and made available from 1/84.

584 Dzik 2 - (class Gun APC Wheeled) - it isn't used in infantry recce units, but exclusively as APC for Military Gendarmerie Special Units (Oddziały Specjalne Żandarmerii Wojskowej), created around the same time. Carry capacity is up to 8. Better photo with ZW markings might be Pm29528. It seems they were used only until around 2015. Nicknamed Dzik-2 'Gucio'. Could be class 23 APC Wheel, which is free in this period.

There could be created such special unit (class Police?), named eg. OS ZW Squad or SpecZW Squad (or section). They were used among others in some peacekeeping duties in Africa. I guess the squad should be around 6 men, armament is mostly #026 wz.96 Beryl SMG and MP-5. I don't know if LMGs are used as a standard.
Photos are eg https://d-art.ppstatic.pl/kadry/k/r/64/c4/4c8f3067ed36b_o_large.jpg https://zbrojni.blob.core.windows.net/pzdata2/Images/18756
https://zoom.mon.gov.pl/static/zdjecia/IMG_8026.jpg
https://static.polityka.pl/_resource/res/path/b9/c9/b9c97678-e5f5-4ee5-a90e-be8f8b91319e_f1400x900
Picture 29238 of Grom special unit could fit eventually

From 2016 they use Plasan SandCat, named Szop in Poland (carry 8) https://www.defence24.pl/plasan-sandcat-4x4-czyli-szop-nowy-samochod-zandarmerii-wojskowej

Also heavy M1151 HMMWV with FRAG armour were used by OS ZW from 2009, with UKM-2000 CMG.
https://modelwork.pl/topic/11777-hmmwv-w-wojsku-polskim/

Such HMMWV with FRAG kit were also used as a scout vehicle in Iraq, but I don't know since when (some 2007?)

699 GAZ-46 MAW - SMG MG was never mounted upon GAZ-46, in any country. It had no mountings for any MG.

703 BAV-485 6x6 - as a rule it wasn't armed (there could be the second entry). Polish name was BAW (number wasn't used, and 6x6 is redundant) (btw, number is redundant also in other countries, because its Russian army name was BAV, and factory name ZiL-485)

723 Tarpan Rys - in fact Honker Rys - it was experimental proposal of armed utility car with very limited use in Poland. It's better to replace it with Honker Skorpion, keeping the same similar picture - used in Iraq from 10/04, lightly armoured (sides, maybe lower front, gunner's front), armed with 98 UKM-2000 CMG

726 Zubr - not accepted yet as a scout vehicle. Command vehicle Zubr-WD has been proposed for several years, but I don't know how is its status - few are used at best, and rather unarmed. May be preserved for future use.

752 ODS-LST (landing ship) - armament was #96 30 mm gun, not 14.5mm MG.

843 BTR-60PB - in Poland they were not numerous, and used only by the Police - in case of mobilization they could be used by the Police (#178 class). It concerns only formation 390. They would not be used by the army, especially contemporary WOT light infantry. Only few survived in police service by now.

920 Tarpan Honker [utility vehicle] - name should be just Honker. Picture is Mercedes - could be 29331, 29380, 29386.
It should not be armed apart from special patrol vehicles (see Skorpion above).

--
From 2005 there was adopted 12.7mm Tor sniper rifle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WKW_Wilk

That's all as for now.

blazejos

December 20th, 2021, 09:18 AM

Misc.

[B]77 HMMWV Trynka AT

Pibwl mentioned about about different variants of HMMWV in Polish army so I made some research and forged this into proposition of add-on to Polish OOB.

So what is proposed here

I proposing put this in slots 841 to 869 they are free in spob002

Tarpan Skorpion - polish very light armoured car used as a utility and patrol car especially in Iraq after 2003 and now inside Poland
Lbms Pm29660.lbm&Pm29660.lbm

Tarpan Honker - new lbm Pm29662.lbm

PWA Aero - New polish car for paratroopers first in Polish army which can land with use of transport palette which can be throw from transport aircraft's

LPU Zmija - variant of PWA aero for ground forces used as a patrol car

GAZ-69&UAZ-469&Tarpan Honker used by paratroopers since 1960 they can't land on parachute but were indented to be delivered by helicopters or transport planes.

M-ATV -MRAP from USA in use in Poland

Cougar HEV 4x4&Cougar MRAP&MaxxPro 4x4 they were on loan in Afghanistan equipped in polish weapons used by Polish contingent there after 2014 returned to US army.

HMMWV-MMG(+) also used in Afghanistan until 2009

HMMWV Tumak in different variants used in Poland now usually by Para force but also in other ground units and special forces.

Dana M2 modernised variant of Dana which now starts to be used.

Regina AWD FO - command vehicle for Krab unit

Rosomak AWD command variant also used in Afghanistan

Rosomak MMG simplifier variant with open MG also used in Afghanistan

K9PL Krab - New variant of Krab icon proposed in previous posts

Piorun Team - with nice lbm Pm29687.lbm

Also d'like to propose aircraft's in slots 924 to 949

F-35A JSF - Poland plan to buy them in 2024
Po-2 Kukuruznik - old slow biplane used as ersatz bomber and gunship during fights with post AK underground in 1950's
Yak-11&Yak18
TS-8 Bies - first polish modern coin aircraft build in local factories used for training and in case of war as ersatz AOP and ground atack
TS-11 Iskra - polish main coin small jet used for training and in case of war as a simple fighter-bomber equivalent of L-29 Delfin in rest of Warsaw Pact
PZL I-22 Iryda - ill fated successor of Iskra
M346 Bielik - Modern coin Jet in Polish army
PZL-130 Orlik - simple modern coin aircraft all variants TB TC TC2
PZL-230 Skorpion & TS-16B Grot two most advanced prototypes for indigenous coin fighter-bomber
Mi-6 - also used in Polish army but in small number 3x

Pibwl

January 7th, 2022, 05:53 PM

I know this is rather not important, but for a sake of precision, an autocorrection according to more detailed article:

619 ZU-23-2E (improved AA gun with new CKE-1 sights of 2002, FC=20) - name should be ZU-23-2K in fact (E was a proposal with central battery fire control, while K have new individual collimator sights).
Now it has vision 40, while it should have 0 from the start, and 30 only from <strike>2004</strike> 2005(CKE-1N sights with passive night vision). Vision 40 was obtained only in 2016 (CKE-1T sights with TI). These versions might be added.

95 ZUR23-2KG Jodek (Polish ZU-23 with Grom missiles of 2002) - FC should be 20 (now 15), like unit 619 of the same year with the same family sights CKE-2 (it can engage targets flying 500 m/s, comparing to 300 m/s in case of ZAP-23).
Vision should be 0, and 30 only from <strike>2004</strike> 2005 (CKE-2N sights, as above)

584 Dzik 2 - (class Gun APC Wheeled) - it isn't used in infantry recce units, but exclusively as APC for Military Gendarmerie Special Units (Oddziały Specjalne Żandarmerii Wojskowej), created around the same time...

There could be created such special unit (class Police?), named eg. OS ZW Squad or SpecZW Squad (or section). They were used among others in some peacekeeping duties in Africa. I guess the squad should be around <strike>6 men</strike>, armament is mostly #026 wz.96 Beryl SMG and MP-5. ...

From 2016 they use Plasan SandCat, named Szop in Poland (carry 8) </strike>

I asked at Zandarmeria Wojskowa fb page, and a section has 8 man, currently armed with MP-5 and HK416.
Szop (SandCat) vehicles are armed with Mk 17 GL or 7.62mm minigun (some generic light MRV icon might be used, like 680 or 7718)

Pibwl

January 7th, 2022, 07:05 PM

I've found great article about ATGM in Polish service until 1989, for the first time making wider usage of archives ("Nowa Technika Wojskowa" 2/2021) - some dates, which I tried to figure out years ago from partial sources, might be corrected:

30 BRDM Trzmiel - in 1962 there were only few launchers delivered for training, and they appeared in units from mid-63 (now 1/62). Withdrawn from service already by 12/78 (now 89) (stored until 1985, but not included in mobilization plans).

Would need a change in 082 SP-ATGM Platoon, as the first unit.

433 GAZ-69 Trzmiel - same as above, but delivered to units only in 1965. Rare vehicle, used only in airborne division.

24 BRDM-2 Malutka2 - delivered only on 1974 (now 73).
Wrong name - it's not Malutka-2, but Malutka-P (could be BRDM2 Malutka-P, just Malutka-P, or 9P133 Malutka-P)

33 BRDM Malutka (Malutka-M) - most probably only two launchers were used for training (other documents indicate 12 vehicles, but it is less reliable, and in 1971 only two are mentioned)

34 BRDM-2 Konkurs - used in units only from 1985 (now 84).
Probably withdrawn by now, but I have no precise info.

73 Fagot ATGM - appeared in units already in 1977 (now 79)

481 Para Fagot ATGM - not used by airborne forces at all at that time (I don't know how about later 490-491 units)

638 Metis Para ATGM - already withdrawn (around 2010?, after an advent of Spike)

794 WOT JavelinTeam - may be available even earlier [now 1/22] - in 6/21 first batch of operators completed training and first ones were fired.

blazejos

January 11th, 2022, 09:36 AM

Found interesting information

Rosomak APC without tower with small rotational MMG which I proposed earlier as a addition to Polish OOB is know in army as Rosomak M-3
https://zbiam.pl/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/45167317104_058b511b1a_b.jpg They were used in Afganistan and Chad and after that returned to Poland. Here were put in storages and now are rebuild to new variant

Rosomak-S which is transporter for two Spike-LR sets. Visible is that small tower will be removed and probably many changes inside
https://zbiam.pl/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/15274050428_f70dc848ae_b.jpg

source about Rosomak M-3 https://zbiam.pl/wojsko-chce-kolejne-rosomaki-m-3/
source about rebuilding to Rosomak S https://zbiam.pl/przekazanie-kto-rosomak-s/

in December 2021 was mentioned that all ordered vehicles are already rebuild to version which is know by nickname "SpikeBus"
https://zbiam.pl/artykuly/nowe-rosomaki-s-juz-w-wojsku/

Here also photo of Polish airborne PWA Aero with mortar mentioned earlier which is in use by Polish paratroopers icon proposed in earlier post

https://zbiam.pl/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/PWA-AERO1.jpg

DRG

January 11th, 2022, 10:55 AM

Found interesting information

Rosomak APC without tower with small rotational MMG which I proposed earlier as a addition to Polish OOB is know in army as Rosomak M-3

There has been a Rosomak APC named M3 with just an MMG in the OOB's for over a decade.

Just when exactly did you "propose" it's addition??

As for the Rosomak-S.......it would be nice to know if it's just a dedicated SP-ATGM vehicle or an APC with standard CC that just happens to have two Spike launchers......

OR

is it as the other article suggest it's just a APC modified slightly to accommodate 2 Spike teams

38 armored personnel carriers for the transport of anti-tank teams of Spike-LR missile sets, i.e. Rosomak-S. They were delivered to several units of the Polish Army

if it has mounted launchers it's an SP-ATGM but this is a translation issue and it was designed to accommodate 2 spike teams then it's just an APC for use by 2 ATGM teams.

According to info I have found it is........
Rosomak-S - Armored personnel carrier variant [B]for two anti-tank teams armed with Spike anti-tank guided missile.

FASTBOAT TOUGH

January 11th, 2022, 01:51 PM

To the ROSOMAK-S yes, 2 SPIKE-LR teams.

However there just under 350 ROSOMAK armed with the Oto Melara 30 mm Hitfist-30P turret and it is my understanding those turrets will be modified to carry a 2xSPIKE-LR launcher. This was discussed as early as 2015 along with a new unmanned turret. Due to time constraints can't verify back fit status of the HITFIST turrets, unless I come across something while writing this.
https://defence24.com/rosomak-with-spike-missiles-matter-of-the-upcoming-months

The new ZSSW turret just completed testing this a remote operated turret that I gather could see production next year. I would expect TI/GSR 45 or maybe better.
https://defence24.com/armed-forces/land/zssw-30-turret-for-rosomak-passes-the-test-programme
https://defence24.com/armed-forces/land-forces/rosomak-apc-and-zssw-turret-what-are-the-specifics

Just is just overall good data...
Under Production and Variants of the next...
"...with the M3 APCs equipped with additional armor. In 2008 one Rosomak was attacked by the Taliban and thanks to its add-on armour it survived a frontal hit by a RPG-7 rocket, and fired back, the returned to base safely."
https://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/modern/Poland/KTO-Rosomak.php

A VERY CLOSE READING of the following paras could prove "enlightening" from the next ref. they are Paras 4 - 7 this will simply act as a system of "checks and balances" to for manning levels, weapons and most importantly current game protection levels against the refs supplied.
http://www.military-today.com/apc/rosomak.htm

I got other important things to do before work (Late Post today, TG.) so I gotta go!!! Hope this helps, if any further assistance is needed let me know but, I'll need a day or two.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Pibwl

January 12th, 2022, 12:36 PM

I was going to deal with Rosomaks in detail next week after gathering some more info, but since they have been invoked... ;)

To the ROSOMAK-S yes, 2 SPIKE-LR teams.

However there just under 350 ROSOMAK armed with the Oto Melara 30 mm Hitfist-30P turret and it is my understanding those turrets will be modified to carry a 2xSPIKE-LR launcher. This was discussed as early as 2015 along with a new unmanned turret.

Rosomak-S is just unarmed transport vehicle for 2 Spike crews. However, I haven't figured out yet in which formations it is used.

There were plans to merge Hitfist manned turret with Spike from the beginning, but somehow it hasn't been done and lately there are no talks on this subject anymore, especially, that Hitfist is already ageing design, and needing Italian parts.
But indeed, new ZSSW-30 Polish unmanned turred was developed in a meantime, with newest 30 mm Bushmaster (with an option for programable ammo), UKM-2000 CMG and two Spike launchers. Recently I've read, that it might enter production in 2023.

Therefore, units 679,680 Rosomak 2 should represent the vehicle used (hopefully) from 2023. No other changes are needed (unless we want to create newest generation TI). They have 4 Spikes - I don't know if there will be reloads. The name "Rosomak 2" will be most probably wrong, but might stay as for now.

Both as for basic 207 Rosomak and uparmoured 681 Rosomak 1M, an interesting detail is, that they should have no desert camo in the beginning - there should be plain green 3541 icon and maybe winter camo. Only at the end of 2009 the main staff allowed to repaint Rosomaks used in Afghanistan in sand brown camo ;)

<strike>Also, multicolor camo 3543 was introduced on all Rosomaks during their service, but I haven't figured yet when so far (say, 2010 as well).</strike> Correction: after research, basic Rosomaks had multicolor camo from the beginning, only uparmoured ones were green.

<strike>So I propose to change desert icon of 207 Rosomak to green 3541 and make it available until 12/09, then add the second one with 3543/3544/3542 camo.</strike>

Same for 681 Rosomak M1 - I suggest to create one unit with green 3541 camo, and another with 3543/3544/3542 from around 1/10.

667 Rosomak-Rak - name should be just Rak (or SMK-120 Rak). Rak (lobster) is the vehicles's name.

blazejos

January 17th, 2022, 06:10 PM

I just try insert all info from different sources and also include PIBWL sugestions about rosomak different versions into OOB so here is proposition of changes inside polish OOB.

I checked version's of rosomak with small MG towers there existing three variants. So Don has right they are but has not nice pictures which I added propably need also new icons which my prepare in not so long time.

M2 early variant used in Chad 2008 only with ukm2000
M3 only with ukm2000 / with 40mm Mk19 GL and ukm2000 / 12.7mm WKM-B & ukm2000 the same with version M3M

there are also different FO vehicles variants etc. I prepared this in OOB98 but can be easy copied to Polish OOB02 I looked to put this in free slots. I also add diffrent class for Rosomak S to be only transporter for spike teams snd add diffrent class for Rosomak 2 with ZSSW tower and spikes because read article that when they will be introduced in 2024 this new vehicles will go one peer platoon of older rosomak propably so I used class 220 Heavy MRV APC

Pibwl

January 23rd, 2022, 02:46 PM

To finnish with Rosomaks:

681 Rosomak M1 - might actually start at 7/07 (now 8/07) - first uparmoured vehicles entered action in Afghanistan in late July already.

Formations: Rosomak IFV

I've found information about platoon structure and it needs an adjustment, to lower its manpower. The info is taken from one article in Polish "Raport" magazine in 2013 and the other in MOD magazine "Przeglad Sil Zbrojnych" (Armed Forces Reviev) 4/2014, written by a battalion commander (Lt Col).

Current unit 337 Mech Rifle Sec has 8 men - unfortunately, Polish sections carried in Rosomaks have only up to 6 men. It could be 7 only if we artificially split platoon HQ (4). Weapons are correct: UKM-2000 LMG, Pallad GL, RPG-7.

(In fact, the section has 6 or even 5 men, which we should disregard as some abberation ;) The 2013 article says about 5 men, but the battalion commander says "5 or 6", and complains, that the section is "tragically weak" comparing to US one, in terms of riflemen not manning team weapons).

These sections are carried also on BWP-1 (BMP-1), but according to other article in Armed Forces Review 1/2015, sections on BMP are the same. I don't know unfortunately, when 6-men sections were adopted, so 1/100 should remain.

Owing to smaller sections, in Afghanistan Rosomaks were used with only 6 seats to make more room, but I believe we don't need that.

Form. 344 MRV IFV Pl (-) consists of 4 Rosomaks and 4 sections 337. It should be 3 sections and a support section.
The support section consists of:
- 60 mm mortar section (with two men and one mortar #30 - needs new unit)
- 40mm MK19 AGL (unit 097)
I have no idea though, what was used before an advent of Mk19s, which was the first weapon of such class in Poland (they first appeared in 11/07, but for vehicle armament at first, and I also don't know when they were distributed to mechanized infantry).

The article on BMP-1 says, that in a support section it carries five men with 60 mm mortar and 40 mm grenade launcher (presumably rifle-mounted Pallad), so maybe it was the same - and unit 339 Scouts will do? So, there should be earlier Rosomak platoon, until, say 2008, with 60 mm mortar and scouts?

Also from Armed Forces Reviev one might learn, that for "several years", for unknown strange reasons, there are no snipers anymore in mechanized platoons...

BTW: good photos of Polish 60 mm LM-60D mortar are https://www.konflikty.pl/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/mo%C5%BAdzierz.jpg, https://cdn-legacy.defence24.pl/defence24.pl/cache/img/1000_470_matched__ozrmmn_7b217dbaa712d2e765b70d578 bee09eeccec13ce.png (concerning also unit 508 60mm Mortar Sec)

Form. 339 MRV IFV Pl (+) - similar, but differing in Spike section. In fact, Spike missiles are not used on platoon level in Poland - only in battalion's support company (http://dziennikzbrojny.pl/artykuly/art,2,4,11465,armie-swiata,wojsko-polskie,rosomak-i-spike-potrzebny-system-a-nie-tylko-zestaw, https://www.jednostki-wojskowe.pl/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=771:przeciwpancerny-pocisk-kierowany-spike&catid=16 )
Therefore, this platoon is redundant (as a result we don't need "(-)" in 344 MRV IFV Pl (-), but on the other hand, there should be some difference in name between mechanized infantry platoon and sole Rosomak platoon 329)

Form. 336 MRV IFV Co is correct (three platoons, no extras).
The first article linked above says, that usually AT section with Rosomak-S and two Spikes is attached to the company, but it belongs to support company structure.
BTW, the photo there shows, that Rosomak-S really has no even a pintle MG... (icon and photo like unit 448 Rosomak CC - the photo is the same btw).

Formations: Rosomak APC
Concerning 217 MRV APC class units: 208,672,673- Rosomak M3, 669,670,671 Rosomak M3M.

[deleted - I'll re-edit this section to make it simpler]

Pibwl

January 24th, 2022, 05:33 PM

Both as for basic 207 Rosomak and uparmoured 681 Rosomak 1M, an interesting detail is, that they should have no desert camo in the beginning - there should be plain green 3541 icon and maybe winter camo. Only at the end of 2009 the main staff allowed to repaint Rosomaks used in Afghanistan in sand brown camo ;)
...

Same for 681 Rosomak M1 - I suggest to create one unit with green 3541 camo, and another with 3543/3544/3542 from around 1/10.

Rosomak icons

I've found an article in "Nowa Technika Wojskowa" 4/2010, which claims, that green vehicles already in Afghanistan are not repainted, but only new vehicles will be painted sand. It coincides with introduction of RPG nets (M1M and M3M variants), so there is no need to create new M1 and M3 units with sand desert camo and please disregard my earlier suggestion. M1 may remain green, M1M may be just sand, however there are photos of green vehicles equipped with new sand RPG nets as well.

So, unit 681 Rosomak M1 should just receive green icon 3541 for desert.

Units 208, 672, 673 Rosomak M3 should have green 3567 icon both as standard and desert one (they are not supposed to be used in Europe, so they received standard green camo, used for Chad and Afghanistan missions)

On the other hand, basic unit 207 Rosomak should have standard multicolor icon 3543 and green desert icon 3541

Unit 679 Rosomak 2 also should have standard multicolor icon 3550.

Rosomak armour:

There is also new information about armour. It is confirmed in newest articles, that uparmoured Rosomaks M1, M1M, M3 and M3M have composite multilayer additional front plate proof against RPG-7. Polish author Jarosław Wolski, specializing in armour issues, claims even that it is equivalent to 500 mm RHA given its inclination ("Nowa Technika Wojskowa" 8/21). The same will be for hypothetical uparmoured unit 680 Rosomak 2M.
Against AP ammo, it is said to be proof against 30mm 2A42, so it might be 9 instead of 8. On the other hand, front turret was not uparmoured, only sides and rear, bringing protection to Stanag level IV (front: level III+, see below).

Variants with RPG screens (M1M, M3M) have also screened part of rear hull (without doors).

On the other hand, armour of ordinary 207 Rosomak should be a bit weaker.
Hull front is Stanag level IV (5 seems correct), but hull and turret sides are level III (against 7.62mm AP, so 4 is too much). Turret front is level III+ (against 12.7 mm, so 5 is too much).
The same hull armour should have other vehicles on this chassis: 448 Rosomak CC, 579 Rosomak Ammo, 667 Rosomak-Rak, 679 Rosomak 2.

Pibwl

January 24th, 2022, 07:35 PM

Formations: Rosomak APC (continued)
Concerning class 217 MRV APC units:
208,672,673 Rosomak M3,
669,670,671 Rosomak M3M.

First of all, it should be noted, that Rosomak M3 were not conceived as APC, but were only a stop-gap measure to supplement Rosomak IFVs on foreign missions, mostly as transport and logistics vehicles. Initially Polish Army planned APC variant Rosomak-1, but couldn't choose an unmanned turret, so the program was cancelled and the Army remained with over 100 produced chassis, waiting for further decisions. It was decided to arm a number with provisional open mountings and sent to Chad and Afghanistan mssions. Initially these units in the game were meant to be Rosomak-1 APC (changed in 2012 https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=48222&page=9 ), and apparently inherited its formations.

Units 208, 672, 673 Rosomak M3 (uparmoured) should start in "late 2008" [now 6/08], according to newly found detailed article - only then problems with heavy armoured gun ring OSS-D were solved. These gun rings should have Stanag III armour only (against 7.62mm AP), so now it's much too much (same for Rosomak M3M units).

Already from 6/08 there were used vehicles with ordinary armour and lighter OSS-M gun ring, for Chad peacekeeping mission, so they could be added (12.7mm version would be enough). They aren't named, but possibly the name Rosomak M2, mentioned in several places, applies to them (otherwise Rosomak OSS-M). The color was plain green, and they were used until end of 2009.

As for Rosomak M3, I suggest to end them with an advent of M3M, introducing anti-Heat nets (7/10).

As for M3M, I suggest to end these MRV APC units totally by mid-2014, when the mission in Afghanistan ended. They are not used by regular units in Poland and I assume they are stored, awaiting conversion with 30 mm ZZSW-30 turrets or to other specialized variants. There is little probability, that new foreign mission will emerge, with a need to send provisionally armed patrol vehicles.

(edited: in 2020 it was ordered to modify three M3 to some unspecified role, probably connected with command vehicles https://milmag.pl/dodatkowe-rosomaki-m3-pod-zabudowe-specjalistyczna/ . However, it is not clear, if they are meant to remain M3, or rather be rebuilt to some other variant. Anyway, I think we don't need M3 after 2014, even if there would be some accidental usage. Alternatively, we could remove combat platoons with infantry by that date, and leave only formations with sole vehicles.)

(BTW, as for units 670, 673 with 40mm AGL - additional UKM-2000 is not CMG, but ordinary MMG on improvised pintle mount, if it matters - a field modification, known from photographs. It may even supersede a variant with sole 40mm AGL, and eg. 672 Rosomak M3 might be converted to M2 mentioned above)

Formations using class MRV APC:
252 Mec Bn Spt MRV - Available: 06/108-12/125
343 MRV ATGM Pl - Available: 06/108-12/125
345 MRV ATGM Sec - Available: 06/108-12/125
- ATGMs should be carried by unarmed Rosomak-S. But 4-launcher formation 252 seems redundant: primary formation is 2-launcher section (345), and we have also a whole AT platoon with 6 launchers (343).

330 MRV APC Pl - Available: 06/108-12/125
332 MRV APC - Available: 06/108-12/125
- correct formations of sole APC (however, in case of 330, it might be worthy to mix MG and AGL armed vehicles, for one period of time at least)

334 MRV Company (+) - Available: 06/108-12/125
335 MRV Company - Available: 06/108-12/125
340 MRV Platoon - Available: 06/108-12/125
- MRV companies are redundant, because these vehicles were not supposed to be used in companies.
As for MRV Platoon, I suggest to create a mixed Afghanistan patrol platoon, with two Rosomak M1 IFV and two Rosomak M3. It might be called eg. MRV ISAF Plt - so one could choose all-IFV platton or such mixed platoon for Afghanistan ISAF scenarios. As with IFV above, there are three sections and a support section of 60mm mortar and 40 mm AGL.
Again, we could mix two kinds of Rosomak M3 in a template (optimally, two platoons for different periods, the second with Rosomak M3M).

341 MRV Bn Spt Pkg - Available: 06/108-12/125
359 98mm MRV Mtr - Available: 06/108-12/125
- 98 mm mortars are towed by trucks only, not Rosomaks, and we have a formation with mortars towed by utiliy vehicles.

One last thing: photos of Rosomak M3 an M3M don't show these variants, which should have big open armoured gun ring.
M3 is here: https://modelwork.pl/uploads/monthly_2018_11/19.jpg.5e80bb98d67eb39c7d65f4e0bccf2884.jpg , https://modelwork.pl/uploads/monthly_2018_11/20.thumb.jpg.5ccc7c18b6f76a68d7dcff01e2bbcdc5.jpg , https://www.rosomaksa.pl/kto-rosomak-z-obrotnica.html, https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:PKW_Afganistan_27.jpg
I will have to scan M3M photos, because they are not in the net.

To finnish with Rosomaks:
Rosomak S should be created for Spike sections, using 448 Rosomak CC as a template (with corrected basic armour). Class 23 APC (wheel) is free at that time. Date should be around 6/108 (like formations 252, 343, 345 - date more/less correct). It can swim. (It has popular nickname "Spike-o-bus" ;) )

BTW: Rosomaks with basic armour can swim 10 km/h, so speed:2 might be too low.

448 Rosomak CC - FO vehicle. There exists such vehicle Rosomak AWR, for Rak mortars - hopefully, introduced in 2022. It will be armed in #98 UKM-2000 CMG,

(597 Rosomak Ammo - there are no Rosomak ammo carriers, and there are no such plans)

667 Rosomak-Rak - it has no machine gun, especially CMG. It has laser RF. There is no mention, if it can swim, but photos don't show screws...
(I've already written, that the name should be Rak or M120K Rak or SMK-120 Rak)

679, 680 Rosomak 2/2M - ammunition of ZSSW-30 turret is going to be 400 (20+20 - now 18+18).

I hope that's all.

Pibwl

January 31st, 2022, 04:03 PM

Accidentally, I found detailed articles about Czechoslovak RPGs in Polish Army - and there are some inaccuracies, also in their performance:

Czech P-27 RPG was used in Poland from 6/53 until mid-1960s (say, 1963), in 2600 pieces - a forgotten weapon in Poland nevertheless, replaced by Soviet RPG-2. I'm attaching Polish photo.

There is already weapon #27, but its range should be 150 m [now: 2] (according to Polish trials it was "very accurate especially up to 125 m").
On the other hand, penetration (tested) was only 150-170 mm (now 25). It also concerns other users, especially Czechoslovakia (weapon #15 P27 Pancerovka).

Unit 312 Scouts using P-27 should be available from 6/53 at the earliest (now 1/052) - earlier unit 303 needs extending.

---
372 RPG-2 Team - used only from late 1957 (say 6/57) [now 6/54] according to article in "Poligon" 6/2013

A couple of other units using RPG-2 needs correcting as well:
291 - Special Forces - Available 06/054 (unit 290 should be extended then)
310 - Rifle Section - Available 01/055 (earlier infantry overlaps this period)
316 - Rifle Section - Available 01/055
317 - Rifle Section - Available 01/055
318 - Scouts - Available 01/055 (unit 312 should be extended then)
386 - Naval Infantry - Available 01/054
451 - Ski Scouts - Available 01/055 (unit 450 should be extended then)
461 - Ski Riflemen - Available 01/055
768 - SMG Section - Available 01/053
782 - Motorcycle Sec - Available 01/052 (unit 781 should be extended then)
783 - Motorcycle Sec - Available 01/055

---
Surprisedly, Czech T-21 Tarasnice RCL was also available from 6/55 until early 1960s (say, 1961) - totally unknown weapon in Poland, although quite a number (410) were bought and kept in reserve for tank hunters ("Poligon" 3/2014). The same class I think, but radio must be 3. I'm attaching Polish pictures.

There might be copied Czech unit 366 T-21 Team, but there should be no HE ammo (also for Czechoslovakia)!

Czech weapon #158 82mm Tarasnice has range 6, but its maximum aimed range was in fact 600 m (with dispersion up to 0.8m on this range). It concerns also Egyptian weapon #159.

(Czech unit 375 T21 RCL HE and weapon #157 82mm T21 RCL HE with range 56 raise doubts - despite maximum range of the grenade was 2800 m http://www.csla.cz/zbrane/pancerovky/t21.htm , but I haven't found any info, that it was useful on any range above 600 m. It was direct fire weapon with no sights to shoot in ballistic way (both iron and optical sights were scaled up to 600 m) and used HEAT ammo with only some HE effect. According to "Poligon" article, HE ammunition was envisaged, but there is no info if it ever entered production)

---
BTW, pictures for Special Forces are messed - I'm attaching proper propositions:
289,293 Special Forces - picture is AKSU-74, not PM-84 SMG

290 Special Forces - photo is hard to identify, not PPS SMG (and not special forces, judging from field caps)

292 Special Forces - picture is PPSh, not PPS SMG

292 Special Forces - picture is PPSh, not PM-63 SMG

294,297 Special Forces - picture is AKSU-74, not Beryl SMG

I'm also attaching the only good photo of Rosomak M3M that I have found, and photo of unit 129 Yak 9P (also the only good ones)

DRG

February 1st, 2022, 11:57 AM

Save yourself the time and trouble of making LBM's. There is no easy way to say how unusable they are for the most part

Pibwl

February 3rd, 2022, 02:52 PM

To end with Poland, misc comments:

AFV:

402 T-72M1 - it's pretty lame "modernization", but from late 2019 (say 1/20) there are introduced modified T-72M1R with TI vision. Sadly, fire control and all the rest are the same. (I'm leaving aside the gun, which in fact on all Polish T-72s should remain on late 1980s level..).

541 Wz.77 Dana - better name is just Dana. "Wz.77" alone doesn't make much sense (it is: "armatohaubica wz. 1977" - "gun-howitzer 1977 pattern"), but this official designation is rarely used.
In last years they were modernized to Dana-T, fitted to modern artillery command and control (C3ISTAR) system Topaz, but I'm not sure if it has any impact on single unit's stats.

578 BRDM-2 Szakal - armour should be the same as basic version - only difference was armament, sand camouflage and air conditioning for Iraqi mission...
It might have better survivability, than ordinary BRDM-2 [3], because it has auxiliary wheels removed and side doors added (the same for units 570-572, 576-577)

610 Osa-AKM-P1 - I don't know if it matters in case of SP-SAM, but it also has laser RF

202 ZSU-23-MP Biala - it was rare vehicle at first - only one prototype was used in the army from 2005 [1/05], next two were modified in mid-2006, 3 in 2007... I'm afraid a significant number appeared around 2010 or later.

Guns

91,92 122mm Field Gun - of course it is pure Field Howitzer

174 122mm Gun Sec - photo is not used in Poland post-war cannon. Poland used only wartime A-19 (later modified with pneumatic wheels). There is original A-19 photo 41091 (Finnish).

204, 206 98mm Mortar - delivered only in a course of 2004 (say, 10/04) (now 10/03)

551 85mm AT-gun - photo is 100mm gun, should be 29428

564 S-125 Newa-SC,
669 SA-3 Neva SC - names should be unified. I can't verify dates at the moment, but according to one article from 1996, the first one should rather be S-125 Newa-S (self-propelled), and only the second one S-125 Newa-SC ("cyfrowy" = digital).

For a sake of consistency, 048 S-125 Neva and 041 S-125 Neva M might be renamed Polish name "Newa" and "Newa-M".

I haven't browsed all units, but that's more than enough...

DRG

February 28th, 2022, 04:14 PM

Poland in May signed a deal to purchase 24 landmark Bayraktar TB2 armed unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) from Turkish drone magnate Baykar

......I'm sure there is at least 2 people willing to tell me if these will be armed and if so, with what

blazejos

February 28th, 2022, 07:35 PM

DRG

February 28th, 2022, 08:33 PM

You're getting one MAM to cover both types.....weapon slots getting low

blazejos

February 28th, 2022, 10:23 PM

I just thinking about something related I wrote about SPWWIII as a joke but after all that may be quite usefully idea.

Many politics in Poland says that this war on Ukraine is an Historical Event (in good and in bad sense) and will shape history of Europe & (West in broad sense) for years to come. So I just think meaby will be worth to consider release in some future new game in series and for example close SPMBT years coverage in 2021. That is 71 years covered in OOB's much more than 15 years in case SPWWII.

That new game meaby named SPWWIII (in relation to Pope Francis words from 2014) or SPPMBT (Steel Panthers Post Modern Battle Tanks) or whatever name we will found better. On the beginning that may be just SPMBT code and just different coverage from 2022-2025 that will free OOB's from WW2 50's 60's equipment and weapons so will be many slots for new units and weapons. And then after some time additions like fighting in Chernobyl area with radioctive dust behind tanks or Hybrid war in some way implemented inside code. Just starts to dreaming :) btw. this video in my opinion shows where this war on Ukraine may bring us all in funny way in near future
https://twitter.com/iam_Farjan/status/1497992506847293444?s=20&t=qw5FYZQlMbH-iZE_xp8iTg

Pibwl

March 1st, 2022, 12:37 PM

Looking of this article https://zbiam-pl.translate.goog/artykuly/bezzalogowe-bayraktary-tb2-dla-sil-zbrojnych-rp/?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=pl&_x_tr_pto=wapp I will said that are laser guided bombs Roketsan MAM-L i MAM-C of Turkish production. I spouse the same was buy by Ukraine meaby?

As for now this is the only weapon carried by Bayraktar, so there's no much choice - surprisingly effective, judging from films ;)
I've read an article, that it can carry two MAM-L, plus optionally two small MAM-C.

DRG

March 1st, 2022, 01:38 PM

Honestly....... I DON'T CARE..... if you do build your own OOB and post it to the MODS section

Pibwl

March 2nd, 2022, 06:25 PM

I've read an article, that it can carry two MAM-L, plus optionally two small MAM-C.

Correction: with less endurance it can take four bigger MAM-L. Which are pretty lightweight (22 kg), but can blow a vehicle anyway.
There is Ukrainian song recently ;) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGVZHLOV60E

blazejos

March 4th, 2022, 11:48 AM

Here is a working version of "Byraktar song" [english subtitles] about Bayraktar TB2. Probably best advertisement for manufacturing company.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zii0G9lr6rQ

DRG

March 6th, 2022, 10:18 AM

To finish with Rosomaks:

In my dreams......

There is a slight chance I might make adjustments to these formations but only slight

First off there are no spare empty mortar unit classes except Para mortar team which is a normal infantry unit that can be dropped but it is not an indirect mortar formation. It's used for direct fire only

Maybe the manpower has been cut back so they are tiny units and maybe that might change.

http://www.military-today.com/apc/rosomak.htm

says it will hold 2 crew and 10 passengers

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KTO_Rosomak

says commander, driver, gunner and 8 passengers

and I know as sure as the sun rises and sets whatever I do to try to make that work will be nitpicked because it cannot be made to exactly match "reality"

......so EXPECT to be "disappointed"

Pibwl

March 6th, 2022, 03:02 PM

http://www.military-today.com/apc/rosomak.htm

says it will hold 2 crew and 10 passengers

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KTO_Rosomak

says commander, driver, gunner and 8 passengers

The latter is theoretical capacity coming from number of seats. The former is... I don't know, there aren't as many seats (I've seen it myself) ;) - possibly planned APC variant with one-man turet.

Thank you for you efforts and dedication anyway.

DRG

March 9th, 2022, 01:23 PM

Here is a working version of "Byraktar song" [english subtitles] about Bayraktar TB2. Probably best advertisement for manufacturing company.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zii0G9lr6rQ

If nothing else comes from this at least now I can pronounce 'Bayraktar' with a convincing Ukrainian Accent and a new earworm that keeps popping into my head:)

DRG

March 12th, 2022, 01:22 PM

The support section consists of:
- 60 mm mortar section (with two men and one mortar #30 - needs new unit)
- 40mm MK19 AGL (unit 097)
I have no idea though, what was used before an advent of Mk19s, which was the first weapon of such class in Poland (they first appeared in 11/07, but for vehicle armament at first, and I also don't know when they were distributed to mechanized infantry).

I can make this work only if it has a start date of 1/2009 so that's when it starts with the 40mm GL and 60mm Mort

Pibwl

March 20th, 2022, 05:35 PM

SaS TrooP

March 23rd, 2022, 07:33 AM

Pibwl, as far as I know - and I just asked a friend serving there :P - they do train combat with 6 dismounted men, but in administrative practice 6th guy should be coming from NSZ (Narodowe Siły Rezerwowe - like quasi National Guard) assets.

Don't ask me why, but theoretically dismounts could be 6 or 7 men, as Squad Leader may elect to dismount with his troops instead of manning the Rosomak command.

SaS TrooP

March 23rd, 2022, 08:12 AM

Meanwhile, random topic change from Ukraine matters - let's head back to the '80s

PART 1/2

I have recently stumbled at this very decent T-55 upgrades article by people who clearly know how it all works:
http://opisybroni.pl/t-55am-merida/

I am not sure if Google Translate will do, so let me roughly translate fragments that are of meaning to me (and honestly, I should have translate it all!):

In order to increase protection, the T-55AM tank was given a passive additional up-armouring in the upper hull, sides and bottom.
(...)
Additional armor weighting 800 kg (...) consisted of: welded additional plate of actual 30mm thickness, behind which there were four 5mm thick steel plates, placed inbeetwen from each other every 23mm. The spaces between them were filled with polyurethane providing an additional armour structure. The angle placement of main plate of 30mm thickness resulted in doubling its effective armor capacity against direct hits. Angle placement of further 5mm plates increased protection for each to 15mm.
(...)
Such placement resulted in such an effect, that in case of direct frontal hit the armour penetrator - after making way through 30mm plate was meeting further plates of further 45mm thickness.
(...)
Thus, against kinetic penetrator munitions (monoblocks 100mm, SABOT, APFSDS etc.) the armor of the upgraded area has improved from 200mm to circa 305mm of steel armor. In case of a HEAT round hit, thanks to several layers as well as filling between those responsible for disrupting shaped charge effect reached the effective protection of 450mm equivalent of steel armor.
(...)
Real thickness of the additional armor was 150mm, what summed up with real thickness of original armor let to the increase of real armor from 100mm to 250mm - and effective one from 200mm to about 500mm.

Additional up-armoring of the turret was designed comparably. (...)
Placing and shapes of external up-armoring, its structure and the main armor of the turret (the latter one of effective armor of 235mm). In the areas up-armored the addons and base frontal armor provided a total effective armor efficiency of 400mm - against kinetic rounds - and circa 450-460mm against shaped charges.

However, in the frontal areas of the turret right by the gun sleeve and PKT co-axial machinegun window the total efficiency was diminished to about 305mm of steel armor efficiency against all sorts of rounds.

For the better protection of the sides, the T-55AM was supplied with side skirt rubber armor of 10mm thickness. Field testing proved that thanks to said upgrade there was a reduction of penetrating effect on the main armor - depending on the type of shaped charge round - starting from 27% (artillery round 3BK5M, 100mm calibre) to 48% (PG-7VM RPG round)

Actually it is worth to note what the authors write at the end - where they compare the armor protection to western weapons of the ERA, still falsely assuling that TOW penetration capability was at 600mm which we today know - is false:

A similar situation regarded the shaped charge munitions, which by the time the modernization was underway reached a penetration of 600mm, resulting in obsolescence of the urmor upgrades against such threats, as the protection against such threats allowed protection of only up to 450mm.

Summary:
- Effective protection of T-55AM - including polish T-55 "Merida" upgrade - should be actually higher than it currently is;
- One needs to think what to do with a gun sleeve area that was an obvious weak spot in protection;
- Current T-55 Merida in-game effective protection is:
Steel hull: 28cm
Steel turret: 33cm
Anti-HEAT hull: 33cm
Anti-HEAT turret: 35cm

Thus, probably should be:
Steel hull: 30cm
Steel turret: 35cm (this includes the weakspot, otherwise about 40cm)
Anti-HEAT hull: 45cm
Anti-HEAT turret: 45cm or about 40cm (including the weak spot?)

- What could be done with side armor? Increase anti-HEAT to about ~17cm to increase the work of angled shots with those rubber skirts?
- Said update was quite universal - it should probably be applied not only to Merida, but all other T-55AM upgrades, mostly the DDR one and Czech Kladivo program;
- The general idea is that it seems upgraded T-55s had the possibility to actually fend off TOW strikes (mean standard TOW, not I-TOW or TOW-2). I believe it should be reflected in the game, but not without taking the weakspot into account;
- Note on the side: about 650 polish T-55s were brought up to this standard, but formally only three divisions were listed with this tank. In other words, even in 1989 the T-55M and T-55U should technically still be available for Poland as line tanks, not just reserve ones as they are now;

SaS TrooP

March 23rd, 2022, 08:26 AM

PART 2/2

Now, the same articles I mentioned in the previous post also does touch the idea of ammunition used in polish T-55 upgrade:

Compared to T-55AM tanks modernized and used in the Soviet Army, the tanks in Polish service were not provided with most modern types of ammunition - both kinetic as well as shaped charge one (HEAT).

For example, the Polish "licensee" was not provided with 3UBM11 SABOT rounds as well as 3BM25 fin stabilized rounds, able to penetrate 280mm from 2000 metres and 300mm armor from 100 metres (angle 90). Polish-operated 3UBM8 rounds with 3BM20 munitions penetrating ability was lower by about 40mm from the same angle and distance.

[so 24cm on 2000m and 26cm on 1000m]

Same applied to HEAT rounds. Polish tanks were supplied with 3UBK4M rounds with 3BK5M munitions with about 390mm penetration which were used in the Soviet Army from 1962, while Soviet Tanks stocks were long upgraded with 3UBK9 and 3UBK9M with corresponging 3BK17 and 3BK17M munitions with greater penetrating ability. Polish tanks were not integrated with 9M117 barrel launched ATGMs at all.

- Many tanks in the game are armed with "100mm D10TG 79" weapon, that seems to be comparable and proper choice for this set of rounds
- More modern Soviet rounds relied on better flight stabilization rather than increased penetration. Thus perhaps if you wished to include such a change, the gun accuracy should be improved, but not penetration data

Pibwl

March 23rd, 2022, 06:33 PM

As for T-55AM Merida you're probably right, I didn't want to research details there...

There appeared recently new modern Piorun SAM - a development of Grom (formerly Grom-M), delivered from 2019. It is said, that accuracy and target detection have been much improved, to world's best level - although Grom has already accuracy 130, and I don't know if any MANPADS in the game is better than 130. Range was enhanced to 400-6500 m. The launcher is fitted with TI sights.

Many good words were recently said about Piorun, concerning its usage in Ukraine. There is an opinion among experts (Polish ones though), that it might be the most advanced MANPADS at the moment, with effective homing head algorithms and advanced decoy selection. There are pre-programed modes, optimized for aircraft, UAV and misiles, and for weather conditions. Reportedly no other MANPAD have proximity fuze, which Piorun has. During trials it destroyed 57 mm S-5 rockets.

DRG

March 27th, 2022, 06:34 AM

One more confirmation of Rosomak squad - a picture that was posted recently on one fb group about Polish military. There was also posted an information, that squads really have 5 men, with an option for 6th man from reserve forces... :( Of course, we should stick with a bigger number.
(Just to explain, the first vehicle has 7 men, with platoon commander and radio operator. "Załoga" is a crew.)

There are no snipers in a platoon indeed, they can be assigned from company level.

So....... 5 men... maybe 6 but 7 in the first vehicle :doh:

so maybe 22 --- maybe 25 ( maybe )

What is in my OOB now, and that is a formation with 3 Rosomaks and one BWP that includes a 60mm mortar and 40mm AGL for the BWP is ( excluding the vehicle crews ) a troop count of 26 in all four vehicles.

Be happy with that. If not, use MOBHack to adjust your OOB however you like once the update is released ( whenever that might be )

Pibwl

March 30th, 2022, 01:42 PM

So....... 5 men... maybe 6 but 7 in the first vehicle :doh:

I'd go just with 6 men in each.

DRG

March 30th, 2022, 03:16 PM

You're getting what I said your getting in #77

DRG

April 11th, 2022, 01:15 PM

http://www.the-monitor.org/en-gb/reports/2020/poland/cluster-munition-ban-policy.aspx

The Republic of Poland has not acceded to the Convention on Cluster Munitions.

Poland’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs has regularly responded to Cluster Munition Monitor’s request for updated information since 2009. In its most recent response, provided in April 2017, Poland states that it is “currently not in a position to join the convention,” but “recognizes the humanitarian problems caused by [cluster munitions]” and expresses its “support for the humanitarian cause.” Poland repeats its position that the “adoption of the CCM’s [Convention on Cluster Munition’s] obligations would mean a serious weakening of [the country’s] defence capabilities, which is not acceptable in the light of the deteriorated security environment.”

we recognize the right of states to use modern, highly reliable cluster munitions for defence purposes.”

There are no Hvy Cluster arty or air in the Polish OOB past 2010. ( there still is 98mm mortar cluster )

This has now been "corrected" Hvy arty Cluster and air is now back to 2025 end date

Aeraaa

April 11th, 2022, 02:04 PM

A reminder on which countries have signed the convention on cluster munitions:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_on_Cluster_Munitions#/media/File:Cluster_Munitions_Convention.svg

DRG

April 11th, 2022, 02:08 PM

Yep and Poland and Ukraine are not on the list

blazejos

July 28th, 2022, 07:29 AM

Interesting story about Cougar HEV 4x4 in Polish army.

They were in years 2009-2014 in use by polish units in Afghanistan then returned to US army and now they coming back ...

Poland buy around 300 in version 4x4 to be used in eastern border as patrol vehicle and as utility car better than Tarpan Honker.
https://defbrief.com/2022/06/22/poland-welcomes-first-batch-of-cougar-mrap-vehicles-from-the-us/

Tarpan Honker armoured
https://www.skyscrapercity.com/cdn-cgi/image/format=auto,onerror=redirect,width=1920,height=192 0,fit=scale-down/https://www.skyscrapercity.com/attachments/840_472_matched__r2ie45_51675572455adebed8fd3k-jpg.2352787/

Coguar in "European camo"
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FYlZZNHWYAE7qfo?format=jpg&name=large

Probably these used vehicles are interim solution until better suitable for european roads will be available in bigger number. Polish future MRAP is probably HSW-Tatra Jelcz 4x4

https://www.skyscrapercity.com/cdn-cgi/image/format=auto,onerror=redirect,width=1920,height=192 0,fit=scale-down/https://www.skyscrapercity.com/attachments/hsw-tatra-4x4-fot-hsw-jpg.2353066/

Also variant with Brimstone rockets is planed to replace old BRDM2 rockets versions in AT mobile units.

https://www.hsw.pl/aktualnosci/konsorcjum-pgz-ottokar-zawarlo-umowe-ramowa-na-dostawe-niszczycieli-czolgow/

https://www.hsw.pl/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/koncepcja_NISZCZYCIEL.png

blazejos

July 28th, 2022, 07:52 AM

Have some proposition how is possible to put this again available Cougar in Polish OOB without use of additionally slots. Meaby is possible to extend unit years 2009-2025 and do years 2014- April 2022 unviable by remove formation so player will can't buy them .

I'm just also curious if is possible place in game units for this vehicle or meaby as a off map artillery?

BAOBAB-K Scatterable Mine-laying vehicle
https://militaryleak.com/2022/07/25/baobab-k-scatterable-mine-laying-system-to-enter-mass-production-phase/

https://i0.wp.com/militaryleak.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/huta-stalowa-wola-unveils-baobab-k-truck-mounted-scatterable-mine-laying-system-3.jpg?w=600&ssl=1

miq

September 29th, 2022, 03:00 PM

The Spike ATGM platoon in MRV Company+ (334) is only available until 2021. Should it be later?

DRG

September 30th, 2022, 07:37 AM

The Spike ATGM platoon in MRV Company+ (334) is only available until 2021. Should it be later?

343 ends 11/ 2021 and 348, which has the same structure starts up 12/ 2021 then runs to 12/25 but 348 is not used by any formation and when I get time I will dig into it...... it ran to 2025 the previous release and 338 did not exist. There may have been a formation structure adjustment that was WIP

miq

October 1st, 2022, 03:29 AM

Also, I could not find any difference between infantry units 268 and 269 except for LBM and 'available from'. They appear as options for Rifle Company (006).

blazejos

October 21st, 2022, 07:15 AM

Bayraktar TB2 unit 693 in Polish OOB were introduced in 9/2022 in reality they are aviable since 10/2022 so very close the date were deducted last year :)

Polish introduced also K2 and K9A1 in this year propablly 11/2022 into units. first tanks are already in European camo

https://zbiam.pl/prezentacja-pierwszych-polskich-czolgow-k2-i-armatohaubic-k9a1/

https://zbiam.pl/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/K1.jpg

Also K239 Chunmoo will be introduced in next year don't know when build on polish Jelcz chasis here is visualisation of this vehicle https://www.altair.com.pl/news/view?news_id=38267

BWP AS21 is also tested in Poland already nice photo in european camo https://www.altair.com.pl/news/view?news_id=38277

DRG

October 21st, 2022, 10:01 AM

OK...........

1/will the K2PL be using the gun-fired missile?

2/What's the difference that would change anything in the game between the K9A1 and unit 37?

FASTBOAT TOUGH

October 22nd, 2022, 02:41 AM

Well, I see there were no takers out here to answer the questions so I guess that leaves me just when I thought I could go to bed!?! :rolleyes:

1. I've reviewed my files on the deal w/Poland and conducted a further web search geared toward the KASTAM-II which is the current version in use by the South Korean Army.

The search was unsuccessful and personally I feel unlikely to happen given the technologies involved. The KASTAM-II sort of reminds me of the STRIX in its mode of deployment and operations.
https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/modern/South_Korea/k2-black-panther.php
(Go to FIREPOWER it gives the best description on KASTAM.)

The K2 is capable of firing any NATO standard tank ammo. It should be noted which is why...
"Nammo has secured an agreement to develop new and modern 120mm ammunition for Hyundai Rotem Companies’ K2 Black Panther main battle tank (MBT)."
This is to support the European operators of the K2 tank.
https://militaryleak.com/2022/10/07/nammo-to-develop-120mm-ammunition-for-south-korean-k2-main-battle-tank/
(From Oct 8th.)

This furthers my case that it appears South Korea like Japan is wanting to hold on to their secrets when it comes to ammo and armor.

2. Overall it's much more accurate the CEP will be much smaller due to the fact that the K9A1 has added an Inertial Navigation System (INS) coupled to the existing GPS that the K9 carried. Also has a new Auto. FCS. The ref breaks it down very easily.

Both share protection against 155mm shrapnel and 14.5mm AP.
https://www.hanwha-defense.co.kr/eng/products/firearms-system-k9.do#:~:text=The%20K9A1%20is%20a%20variant%20of%2 0the%20K9,driver%20night%20vision%20periscopes%20a nd%20auxiliary%20power%20units.
https://www.hanwha-defense.co.kr/eng/products/firearms-system-k10.do
Might need some of these as well.

And for people like me who seek a deeper meaning of things at times I give you the following with NAMMO mentioned again :p ...
https://www.emerald.com/insight/content/doi/10.1108/JDAL-05-2019-0011/full/html

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

DRG

October 22nd, 2022, 05:35 AM

The K2 is capable of firing any NATO standard tank ammo. It should be noted which is why...
"Nammo has secured an agreement to develop new and modern 120mm ammunition for Hyundai Rotem Companies’ K2 Black Panther main battle tank (MBT)."
This is to support the European operators of the K2 tank.
https://militaryleak.com/2022/10/07/nammo-to-develop-120mm-ammunition-for-south-korean-k2-main-battle-tank/
(From Oct 8th.)

This furthers my case that it appears South Korea like Japan is wanting to hold on to their secrets when it comes to ammo and armor.

Most of what we do is based on the info we can find and the info we can find is always "old news". Sometimes I have to guesstimate.... sometimes that actually works

For now I am giving the K2PL Mesko.........for now. I don't think (?)this deal involves ammo from Korea

The search was unsuccessful and personally I feel unlikely to happen given the technologies involved. The KASTAM-II sort of reminds me of the STRIX in its mode of deployment and operations.
https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/moder...ck-panther.php
(Go to FIREPOWER it gives the best description on KASTAM.)

Exports: The Altay

"The Altay is intended to enter in service in 2018".
ROTFLMAO.......

Like I said "old news"

EDIT

The "Altay issue" is compounded by.......

The lone analogy in today’s international system to what just happened between Britain’s politics and markets is in Turkey, where President Recep Tayyip Erdogan has been obstructing monetary policy, prattling the economic gibberish that higher interest rates fan inflation. The result of this reckless imposition is 83% inflation, 10% unemployment and a 51% plunge in the lira’s value over the past 12 months alone.
https://www.jpost.com/international/article-720204

blazejos

October 25th, 2022, 08:56 AM

Well, I see there were no takers out here to answer the questions so I guess that leaves me just when I thought I could go to bed!?! :rolleyes:

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Pat thank you for this fast answer you have right about real tankers there :( but I try a little bit late but this what I know.

I'm also rather certain that this KASTAM-II will not be used simple is not mentioned anywhere. Also K2PL is a little bit different to standard South Korean K2 Black Panther. Has according to this article https://tech.wp.pl/polskie-czolgi-wyjechaly-z-fabryki-sa-w-drodze-na-wschodnia-flanke,6824691892239296a

Improved construction of armour shell (so probably better than original version but how much ???)
Hull is longer a little bit if you ask how much is mentioned that additional 7th wheel was added

Also are there two MG I my spouse that they may be a polish origin one 12.7mm and one 7.62mm

That all my suggest that New icon may be needed with a little bit longer hull and new polish camo.

https://i.redd.it/v6jqlst43i591.jpg

DRG

October 25th, 2022, 10:52 AM

So the K2PL looks like a Leo 2A5/6 but with square grills over the engine and cage armour around the engine
.
That simplifies Icon creation........

That said that is NOT how it looks in the photos provided so far and note this photo showing the Polish Flag is a six-wheel vehicle

https://zbiam.pl/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/K1.jpg

So MAYBE we should wait until one rolls off the boat..........

DRG

October 25th, 2022, 02:39 PM

For giggles......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hx_fbmsSXlk

Note the vehicle .04 seconds in DOES have 7 roadwheels but it's also flying a Turkish flag and .21 seconds and 32 seconds in there is another one but it has six and at 1:02 were back to 7.

At 3:03 they mention adding a 7th road wheel and increasing the weight to over 60 tons with added armour

Let me know when they roll off the boat and we'll see how close this is........
https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=16798&stc=1&d=1666725009

blazejos

October 25th, 2022, 03:19 PM

Now I'm also confused but when I look precisely on K2 photo from South Korean roll of ceremony looks more like ordinary K2 Black Panther but in polish camo. Maeaby they are ordinary one version and K2PL will be build in Poland in this version somewhere around 2024/2025. Modern tanks were necessary for yesterday so that is why this hurry?

Hurray :) I found answer on Official government page https://www-gov-pl.translate.goog/web/obrona-narodowa/czolgi-k2?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=pl&_x_tr_hl=pl&_x_tr_pto=wapp

First 180 build in Korea scheduled for 2022-2025 are original K2 Black Panther
Next 820 tanks build in Poland in years 2026 -? in K2PL configuration
First 180 starting in year 2026 will be rebuild also to K2PL standard.
So lets assume that after 2028/29 all the tanks will be in K2PL version :)

BTW Greet icon meaby used also to Norwegian future tank K2NO :)

DRG

October 25th, 2022, 03:54 PM

https://www.armyrecognition.com/images/stories/news/2021/november/K2NO_Main_Battle_Tank_proposal_from_South_Korea_Hy undai_Rotem_for_Norwegian_army_925_001.jpg

https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=16799&stc=1&d=1666728501

blazejos

October 25th, 2022, 04:16 PM

Thank you Don
Icons are great and my regards for that you done them so fast :)

When I look on official polish government site mentioned earlier I also found informations that meaby usefully to polish OOB:

48 vehicles K9A1 deliveries in years 2022 to 2023 (they are Korean version with their gun only communication system is Polish)
K9PL new variant will be based on K9A2 will be delivered in 2024 and production in Poland starts in 2026. Also older first K9A1 will be rebuild then to K9PL standard

DRG

October 25th, 2022, 04:28 PM

Thank you Don
Icons are great and my regards for that you done them so fast :)

24 years of experience teaches a thing or two.........

https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=16800&stc=1&d=1666729878

FASTBOAT TOUGH

October 27th, 2022, 03:48 AM

With all due respect, I actually feel the K2PL armor levels will fall somewhere either at the level of the current K1A1/K1A2 (With the K1A2 electronic system upgrades.) or at best between both the K1A1/K1A2 and K2.

Though we are not dealing with DU Armor issues here, we are certainly dealing with classified industrial secrets related in how the armor "came about" (R&D) and manufactured etc. etc.

I've already covered this ground which facilitated us to develop a plausible model for foreign sales M1A2C (SEP 3) tanks as entered in the game with the last patch.

S. Korea is well aware of the "courtship" between China and Russia and both are aligned with N. Korea. The last thing S. Korea wants to see is their version of the K2 being towed, transported or driven off a European battlefield that they have no interest in fighting at themselves.

Also, the same goes for the KASTAM munition which was never mentioned as part of this tank deal.

I have read articles to further this point, quoting U.S. ARMY officers that have no firm data concerning the TYPE 10 tank from Japan about its armor and latest ammo.

Foreign sale tanks come with options that we along with any major tank producing countries offer to foreign countries from armor, electronics etc. etc.

We did the same several years ago when the Ukraine developed the OPLOT-M (T) for Thailand.

Take a look for yourselves, we put together a very capable foreign sales M1A2C that can compete with anything out there.

It's just not an American M1A2C for all the reasons stated above and more not mentioned.

And to clarify and as I have already stated elsewhere, I absolutely can see if the Ukraine should ever get those LEOPARD 2A5 tanks, game wise, they should be the latest version they (Germany) had in service before they retired them.

I hope you see the difference in this last versus the above for a countries most advanced fielded tank.

Regards,
Pat
:capt: