Finnish OOB 8.0

[dmnt]

Have a nice holiday from the tiresome task of going thru OOBs and checking and checking. Here's something for the version 9.0 when the holiday is over. I try to put everything in place so that there's only minimal work required.

Unit 021 Leopard 2A6FIN

Units will be shipped from Netherlands during 2015-2019 and will thus have the equipment 2A6NL currently has:

MODIFY
Unit 021 Leopard 2A6FIN
Weapon1: 120mm L55 WG06 or WG01 (needs new weapon entry either way)
EW: 4

REMOVE
Unit 025 Leopard 2A5FIN
No upgrades planned to 2A4s as 2A6s were bought.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

I just was under the "impression" the Finns would continue with this nomenclature in naming their newly bought LEOPARDS. If this is incorrect that's on me, however, that does not change the fact that those tanks are the Dutch ones they just bought. That being said I believe those guns are correct. That was just a simple transfer to the Finnish OOB of the tanks that are in the Netherlands OOB for how many years now without issue. No plans have been announced for any upgrades on those tanks by Finland with the possible exception of changing out of the TI and maybe the FCS to a BAE Hauglands system. I'm tracking this issue currently. I cannot speak to the LEOPARD 2A5FIN except that the refs below do support your claim.
http://www.janes.com/article/31818/finland-negotiating-for-dutch-leopard-2a6-mbts
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/snow-leopards-dutch-sells-their-remaining-tanks-to-finland-020936/
http://www.kmweg.com/home/tracked-vehicles/main-battle-tanks/leopard-2-a6/product-specifications.html

Regards,
Pat

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Well that was the plan, see the Patch Page/or the MBT Thread. The wrong Netherlands unit was transferred over to the Finnish OOB. It should've been as requested; Dutch UNIT 037 which does have the correct 120mm/L55 on it. You are correct and I missed the "gun check" myself when I bounced my inputs off the Patch. :doh:

Regards,
Pat

[dmnt]

The minister of defence, Carl Haglund, accepted the proposal and the agreement was signed in the change of January-February.

As the Finnish government is looking for savings the FDF has had their share of budget cuts (thus ATACMS acquisition was cancelled) and FDF had estimated that the price of Leopard 2A4 upgrade is half of a price for a new Leopard 2A7 and it wouldn't make any sense to do such thing.

ref: http://www.talouselama.fi/uutiset/haglund+osti+sata+panssaria++samalla+rahalla+saisi +kaksi+havittajaa+puolikkaan+finnairista/a2226406 (in Finnish)
http://yle.fi/uutiset/puolustusministeri_kuvaa_hankintaa_kautensa_merkit tavimmaksi/7036200 (in Finnish)

translating the most important paragraph:
"According to the Minister of Defence Carl Haglund the Leopard 2A4 tanks currently in use have aged to the point where they need to be upgraded or replaced with new ones. New tanks would have cost approximately 10 million euros a piece and even the upgrade around 5 million euros per tank."

According to the latest Teknologia & Talous magazine, the batches of deliveries will span from 2015 to 2019. A big piece-by-piece scan here, translations maybe later: https://www.dropbox.com/s/mnmftx6phbrubie/TT.png

[dmnt]

The reality has just been updated. Itpsv 2010 Marksman SPAAG prototype never went into production and the defence forces stopped training new conscripts for the gun. However, it will be included in reserve "near the end of this decade", ie. 12/2020 or so.

REMOVE
Unit 322 Itpsv 2010 AA
A prototype upgrade, never continued.

http://www.puolustusvoimat.fi/wcm/erikoissivustot/ith22010/suomeksi/uutiset/1911marksmanampuuviimeisenkerran
"ITPSV 90 (Marksman) Ampumaharjoitukseen viimeistä kertaa ennen kalustoon siirtämistä varmuusvarastointiin."
"ITPSV 90 (Marksman) participating in a shooting drill for the last time before moving the equipment to reserve storage."

[dmnt]

ADD/MODIFY
Copy from Unit 149 - NH 90 TTH
Gatling guns 134D arrived, were accepted and people were trained. They will be taken into use this spring.
http://www.lentoposti.fi/uutiset/utin_nh90_koptereihin_m_134d_h_gatling_oviase
Start Date: 4/114
Weapon1: 7.62mm M134 Gat (needs new entry)
Weapon2: 7.62mm M134 Gat
Ammo/HE: 15?

My proposals from another thread after giving them a bit of thought how their abilities are best represented:

Add following Border Guard units. Border Guard will be assimilated to FDF in conflict situations.

ADD
Agusta 119AW
Class: 204 - Light Helicopter
Available: 1/2010 - 12/2020
Crew: 2
Size: 2
Carry: 7
Weight: 100
Speed: 97
Radio: 91
TI/GSR: 20
Icon: 782??
LBM: 27120?
No weapons
Armour: 6

http://www.raja.fi/vllv/vartiolentolaivueen_ilma-aluskalusto/aw_119_ke_koala
A one-engine version of Agusta 109 equipped with police/border/fdf radio and night vision equipment to replace AB-206s.

ADD / MODIFY
Bell 412 TI
In 2006-2007 Border Guard Bell 412, which is in the OOB as Unit 148 / Helicopter, had a TI camera and weather / search and rescue radar installed. ("lämpökamera", lit. "thermal camera" and "etsintätutka", lit. "search radar")
http://www.raja.fi/vllv/vartiolentolaivueen_ilma-aluskalusto/ab_b-412_helikopteri
Copy unit 148 and modify:
Vision: 50
Start date: 1/2007

Unit 148:
End Date: 12/2007

ADD
AB-206
In 1968 FDF got AB-206 for Air Transport Fleet. In 1979 it was transferred over to the Border Guard which operated multiple (apparently 3) of them until they were replaced by 119AW's (see link for 119AW). Sold off to Latvia Dec 22nd 2012
Unit class: 204 - Light Helicopter
Available: 1/1968-12/2012
Crew: 2
Size: 3
Carry: 3
Weight: 100
LBM: 53874
Speed: 70
Radio: 91 or 93
Vision: 0
No weapons
Armour: 6
Icon: 752?

ADD
AS-332L1 S.Puma
A search and rescue helicopter equipped with TI camera and search radar. Currently 3 helicopters.
Unit class: 53 - Helicopter
Available: 1/1987-12/2020
Crew: 2
Size: 3
Carry: 120
Weight: 100
LBM: 28917
Speed: 93
EW: 0
Radio: 91 or 93
Vision: 50
No weapons
Armour: 10
Icon: 916?

ADD
AS-332L1e SPuma
A search and rescue helicopter equipped with state of the art TI camera and search radar, ordered in 2013 to be delivered by the end of 2015 (2 helicopters).
http://www.lentoposti.fi/uutiset/rajavartiolaitos_ostaa_eurocopterilta_kaksi_as332l 1e_helikopteria
Unit class: 53 - Helicopter
Available: 1/2016-12/2020
Crew: 2
Size: 3
Carry: 120
Weight: 100
LBM: 28917
Speed: 93
EW: 0
Radio: 91 or 93
Vision: 50
No weapons
Armour: 10
Icon: 916?

ADD
DO-228 Dornier
A twin-engine patrol plane equipped with TI and SLAR (from 10/2011).
http://www.raja.fi/vllv/vartiolentolaivueen_ilma-aluskalusto/do-228_dornier
https://lta.cr.usgs.gov/SLAR
Unit class: 50 - Air OP Aircraft
Available: 10/2011-12/2020
Crew: 2
Size: 2
Carry: 0
Weight: 10
Speed: 2
EW: 0
Radio: 91 or 93
Vision: 50
No weapons
Armour: 4
Icon: 2726?

ADD
DO-228 Dornier
As above but without SLAR (up to 10/2011).
Change from above:
Available: 1/1995-10/2011
Vision: 40

ADD
SpecBrd Jaegers
Unit Class: 101 - Paratroop Scout
Date Available: 1/2005-12/2020
Crew: 3
Size: 0
Carry: 0
Weight: 0
Speed: 7
Swim: 1
Radio: 90
Vision: 40
Weapon1: 150 - 7.62 RK 95-op, HE:70
Weapon2: 20 - 66 KeS Orak, AP:2
Weapon3: 120 - Satchel Charge, HE:2
Weapon4: 22 - 8.6mm Tkiv 2000, HE:70

Alternative weaponry (another unit)
Weapon1: 150 - 7.62 RK 95-op, HE:70
Weapon2: 153 - Kylkimiina, AP:2
Weapon3: 240 - Viuhkamiina, HE:2
Weapon4: 22 - 8.6mm Tkiv 2000, HE:70

And finally, a possibility of a Human player to use the AMOS SP-mortar in dual mode, if the code supports it:

ADD/MODIFY
XA361 Dual AMOS
XA361 can engage both in direct fire (like assault gun) or indirect fire (like SP mortar). However the current game mechanics prohibit human player from doing so, as the mortar version has no Fire Control, Range Finder or Stabiliser set.
Create a dual-purpose AMOS for a human player to pick so he can change the purpose at will.
Copy unit 335 - XA361 AMV AMOS and 336 - XA361 AMV STRIX to new units and change the following:
Radio: 93 (prevent AI from using these as it probably can't)
Fire control: 35 (as in assault gun type version)
Range finder: 22 (ditto)
Stabiliser: 3 (ditto)

[dmnt]

Finnish Defence Forces Army has published their new "local defence model": http://www.puolustusvoimat.fi/wcm/0329428043cd0ee59223df028affb6da/Paikallispuolustusmalli+28042014_web.pdf?MOD=AJPER ES (pdf, 2.8 MB)

Here's some background work and in the end I try to intertwine it to SPMBT. Please try to bear with me for a while as I'll summarize the most important pages:

Page 3, Army wartime troops from 2015 on

Army 150 000 men

Operative troops 20%

FDF Rapid Deployment Brigades
Mechanized battle groups
Motorized battle groups
Special Jaeger Batallion
Helicopter Batallion
Detail units

Regional troops 60%

Infantry Brigades
Infantry Batallions and combat groups
Branch troops
Detail units

Local troops 20%

Local Batallions

Separately formed troops

AT Companies
Mortar Companies
FG and AA Batteries
Tank Companies
Other units




Operative troops should be represented as top of the notch companies and this categorization has already been seen in the reserve training where the emphasis is on important key strategic troops as opposed to, well, me. According to this public documentation, they'll be the best equipped bunch from these. So to map the current WinSPMBT companies and platoons, I propose it to be divided to (in parentheses their current exp/morale adjustment):


Operative troops 20%

Special Jaegers (+15 +15)
RDF Co/Pl (+10 +15)
Para Co/Pl/Co[A]/Pl[A] (+10 +10)
Coast Eng Pl (+8 +8)
Sissi Co/Pl (+5 +10)
Sissi Mortar Pl (+5 +10)
Sissi Lt Mortar (+5 +10)
Coast Jaeger Co/Pl (+5 +5)
Heavy Arty Bn/Bty (+5 +5
Artillery Bn/Bty (+5 +5)
Field Gun Bty/Pl (+5 +5)
SPA Bt/Bty/Sec (+0 +0)
MRV Inf Co/Pl (+0 +0)
MRV Support Pl (+0 +0)
BV Jaeger Co/Pl (+0 +0)
CV Jaeger Co/pl (+0 +0)
Mech AT Plt (+0 +0)
Bde TOW Co/Pl (+0 +0)
Helicopters (+0 +0)
AMOS Assault Pl (+0 +0)
TOW BV Pl (+0 +0)
Pioneer Tank (Pl) (+0 +0)

Regional troops 60%

Pz Jaeger Co/Pl (+0 +0)
Pz Pioneer Co/pl (+0 +0)
Scouts (+0 +0)
Ski Scouts (+0 +0)
Infanty Co (+0 +0)
Jaeger Co (+0 +0)
Sniper (Grp) (+0 +0)
Pioneer Plt/Det (+0 +0)
GL Section (+0 +0)
Infantry AT-Grp (+0 +0)
Apilas Plt (+0 +0)

Local troops 20%

Reserve Co/Pl (-5 -5)

Separately formed troops

Mineclearing Pl (+0 +0)
MBT (Co/Pl) (+0 +0)
Inf-SAM Sec/Det (+0 +0)
AAG/SPAAG/AAMG Bty/Pl (+0 +0)
The rest of generic (non-FG/SPA) ARTILLERY units (+0 +0)
All the things in MISC (+0 +0) except...
Tractors (-5 +0)
etc



Naturally the units in the game fall heavily on the A-list as nobody is interested in creating the small nuances between Ostrobothnian reservists vs. North Karelian reservists. I propose the following adjustments to be made as there is still plenty of space in the Finnish OOB:

Copy / Modify
Formations 285, 286, 287: MRV Inf Co/Pl to MRV Jaeger Co/Pl:
Difference between Infantry and Jaeger is the equipment, most importantly the XA-185/202 APCs which are missing from the infantry troops. They have trucks or if they're really out of luck then they have tractors.
End current formations to 12/2014 if you are worried about compatibility and replace the units 127 Infantry Sec with unit 113 Jaeger Section and start the new formation from 1/2015 with +3 / +3 morale/exp boost. Alternatively it could be renamed to "Motor Inf Co/Pl" and be given trucks instead. Or if that is the game developers' view, then drop it to the "60% regional troops" class and do nothing.

Modify
Unit 400: CV9030S: Change unit class to 120 Heavy APC or 127 Gun APC (Tracked)
CV and Pz Companies are overlapping as both are able to pick CV9030S or BMP-2 as they like. However they should represent totally differing types of troops: one driving a 1980's Lada and another driving 2000's Volvo :D.
Change unit class to either 120 or 127 (or another compatible if there are effects in the game mechanics from picking either one of these). The unit is already of movement type Tracked.

Modify
Give operative troops a bit of exp/morale improvement:
Formations 285*, 286*, 287*, 019, 032, 300*, 301*, 168, 141, 140, 013**, 014 : Bump up the morale and experience a notch (+3, +3)
MRV Jaeger Co/Pl, MRV Support Pl, BV Jaeger Co/Pl, CV Jaeger Co/Pl, Mech AT Plt, Bde TOW Co/Pl, AMOS Assault Pl, TOW BV Pl
Formations 146, 147, 152 : Bump up the morale to respective values of non-SP arty units (+5, +5)
SPA Bt/Bty/Sec
* Modifications proposed also in other parts of this post
** Modifications to affected units proposed earlier in this thread

Copy & Modify
Add the regional artillery (see page 4 of the PDF) by copying the existing arty formations, renaming them to "Res. Arty Bn/Bty" and "Res. FG Bn/Bty"
Formations 175, 176, 230, 233 : Copy units to new slots, remove the morale and experience bonus: (+0, +0) for Artillery Bn/Bty, Field Gun Bty/Pl

Modify
Add some AT weaponry to Reserve squads:
Formation 252 Reserve Platoon
Add a copy of a unit 046 - Orak Team available from 1/96 on and with class 161 - Reserve Sup't Squad which is unused in the OOB. In 12/95 HMG section goes away from the company and 66 KeS Orak (M72 LAW) becomes pretty low-tech as Apilas has been around for 9 years. This date trick allows the unit to replace the gap removal of HMG leaves them and some slight AT capability against IFVs and APCs. Alternatively it can be added as of 1/2015 to capture only the recent changes.
Add this unit to formation 252.

Copy & Modify
Add Reserve light mortar platoon for Reserve troops (see page 14, the structure of a "local company": Jääkärijoukkue = Jaegar platoon, Kevyt kranaatinheitinjoukkue = light mortar platoon)
Res. Mortar Pl
Copy formation 109 Mortar Pl(3) to new formation and rename it to "Res. Mortar Pl" and give it (-5, -5) modifiers.

After modifications the new modifiers will be (changed values in bold:

Operative troops 20%

Special Jaegers (+15 +15)
RDF Co/Pl (+10 +15)
Para Co/Pl/Co[A]/Pl[A] (+10 +10)
Coast Eng Pl (+8 +8)
Sissi Co/Pl (+5 +10)
Sissi Mortar Pl (+5 +10)
Sissi Lt Mortar (+5 +10)
Coast Jaeger Co/Pl (+5 +5)
Heavy Arty Bn/Bty (+5 +5
Artillery Bn/Bty (+5 +5)
Field Gun Bty/Pl (+5 +5)
SPA Bt/Bty/Sec (+5 +5)
MRV Jaeger Co/Pl (+3 +3)
MRV Support Pl (+3 +3)
BV Jaeger Co/Pl (+3 +3)
CV Jaeger Co/Pl (+3 +3)
Mech AT Plt (+3 +3)
Bde TOW Co/Pl (+3 +3)
AMOS Assault Pl (+3 +3)
TOW BV Pl (+3 +3)
Helicopters (+0 +0)
Pioneer Tank (Pl) (+0 +0)

Regional troops 60%

Pz Jaeger Co/Pl (+0 +0)
Pz Pioneer Co/Pl (+0 +0)
Scouts (+0 +0)
Ski Scouts (+0 +0)
Infanty Co (+0 +0)
Jaeger Co (+0 +0)
Sniper (Grp) (+0 +0)
Pioneer Plt/Det (+0 +0)
GL Section (+0 +0)
Infantry AT-Grp (+0 +0)
Apilas Plt (+0 +0)
Res. Arty Bn/Bty (+0 +0)
Res. FG Bty/Pl (+0 +0)

Local troops 20%

Reserve Co/Pl (-5 -5)
Res. Mortar Pl (-5 -5)

Separately formed troops

Mineclearing Pl (+0 +0)
MBT (Co/Pl) (+0 +0)
Inf-SAM Sec/Det (+0 +0)
AAG/SPAAG/AAMG Bty/Pl (+0 +0)
The rest of generic (non-FG/SPA) ARTILLERY units (+0 +0)
All the things in MISC (+0 +0) except...
Tractors (-5 +0)
etc

[DRG]

I covered the issue of OOB work like this in the note we included with the patch release and it was aimed exactly at posts like this. Apparently, you either didn't read it or figure it didn't apply to you but BELIEVE ME.......it does.

If you want these mods then do them yourself and post them to the mods folder with a detailed readme and MAYBE after we finally get the break we have desperately needed to take for at least 2 years, we will look at what's been done and *IF* we agree it's worthwhile we will consider using the mods in the official OOB.

I have no problem with someone pointing out an error here or there but we are done with lists like this and I thought we had already made that clear when we released the patch.

Don

[dmnt]

I covered the issue of OOB work like this in the note we included with the patch release and it was aimed exactly at posts like this. Apparently, you either didn't read it or figure it didn't apply to you but BELIEVE ME.......it does.

Sorry Don!
I was too excited to get back to the game after a long period of hospital stays, visits and checkups etc that I just did a cursory reading over the release notes before I fired up the game to fight my friend. That's why there was nothing from me to this forum during that time either, I was too busy concentrating on my family members' health.

I was thinking already while writing that message that I would add "I'm creating an unofficial OOB based on the changes I have listed in this thread." I hope it gets merged back to the main game, I try to be careful not to introduce any changes not specifically mentioned in this thread and extra careful not to break any backwards compatibility.

In the mean time, take a cup of strong coffee and enjoy the time away from this thread and enjoy the finer things in life.

[Warhero]

Well how about making new modified Finnish OOB,dmnt? And upload it into Mods forum (as other modified OOBs there)?

[DRG]

In the mean time, take a cup of strong coffee and enjoy the time away from this thread and enjoy the finer things in life.

It's would be nice if that was all there was to it but I'm dealing with some of the same issues you mentioned in your first sentence so it's not much a case of "enjoy the finer things in life". More like dealing with the harsher realities of life

Don

[dmnt]

Well how about making new modified Finnish OOB,dmnt? And upload it into Mods forum (as other modified OOBs there)?

Well, I have done and tested some of the changes I have done but I hope to get these changes done and test them properly before sharing them to others.

[dmnt]

In the mean time, take a cup of strong coffee and enjoy the time away from this thread and enjoy the finer things in life.

It's would be nice if that was all there was to it but I'm dealing with some of the same issues you mentioned in your first sentence so it's not much a case of "enjoy the finer things in life". More like dealing with the harsher realities of life


My condolences, I was under impression that it was already a thing in the past and all you needed was a bit of rest. I wish you and your family all the best.

[dmnt]

AMV XA361-AMOS (+STRIX) ammo loadout has been a big floating question mark for me for some time already. Until recently I thought somebody had done some deep research and found something I haven't but after spending some hours reading about this in reservists' forums I came to conclusion that the numbers are based on estimates, not actual ammo loads.

AMOS units have a total of 180 rounds (70+70 HE, 20+20 AP) while STRIX units have 90 (35+35 HE, 10+10 AP). Sheer weight of 180 projectiles would be 2.3 metric tons.

Unconfirmed sources state that there are 60+5 rounds in the vehicle in the format that looks like it's copy/paste from www.mil.fi but at least the current page states "Laukauksia vaunussa: 48 kpl", "Rounds in the vehicle: 48 pcs", not specifying if that is in addition to the rounds in the ammo loader or not (according to what I've read, loader takes 4 rounds, the "+5" earlier is one in the barrel included I guess).
XA-361 AMOS on www.mil.fi (http://www.puolustusvoimat.fi/portal/puolustusvoimat.fi/!ut/p/c5/vZHJjqNAEES_pT_AroJiPYIpdsqYHS4IaNxgjPHCYMPXt6WWZk 7jU8sZylMo8kmRIANPnYqp_SrGdjgVR5CAjMs1mhN0E1Li1nJk aGxtGPG2S21oBGKQQCb3D_PZWLrFO8AH8Q_bh2Pj-3Mhwd0jOBCbYGbxOziTroU-htDBPQUdkYrUHZYUpx5z_PG8lb2iafC1D6kfn0PYwkRjKM3dMN DwlVAMQh5pIfcyv_X4Hx_-ZyQIUpDx__IaRYRnPnBpzVMhtBgQ_GIbr1ncG1nsG1n8-1ib3_2XCbK27Nf3ql_DtSBSAidSrIA4RqAhDeImpYh_J7JilPk 8-TtmxWJZyuv6GFu7Ri1KXiNkpLPFtgK6QDm66q1MJ3KcW8Lk5Nc RsbyzHSdpp52K-Ho0y4JXJdV14i-NN2ooi3PQlQgpdmMXl6U_Cbk-7-9a5aJO726WGU1mypoGdWUsRn6UOKFEUhfN-WbFnFHZl9U03NjEyLyT681N5USfnpzKSFWG4uI5KLxbgg5bM3A DKW0Lb_GQ-ZmszpZMB1XTB38S8dbT0bJP3MhWK5eDox6ww6Ls7bEaaB6Z6eW yb9DAHjNpHzRlqTOS5t9CLvwARB_6Gpz76Yw9fUn-qpa-AV84IXc!/dl3/d3/L2dBISEvZ0FBIS9nQSEh/?pcid=ebf484804914d3f6a3f2eb30a8ea04e8)

Army-guide.com suggests rather high looking values 90 rounds in vehicle and 25 rds/min whereas FDF states the peak fire rate is 16 rds/min, sustained rate of 12 rds/min and the total round count is the earlier mentioned 48.
AMOS on army-guide.com (http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product1191.html)

Mobhack manual states:
"Howitzer & mortar loads are 5xROF for on-map pieces, and 10xROF for off-map items."
but i think it does not apply for self propelled units.

Therefore the ammo loadout and ROF values should in my humble opinion be:
ROF: 12 (as currently is)
HE: 18 + 18
AP: 6 + 6

This ammo loadout would be if not realistic at least playable. 6 rounds / 12 ROF means that you can empty the load on predesignated target and not have 1 round left annoying you. 18 HE means that you can continue the next round to empty the vehicle totally of HE ammo before going to ammo dump for reload.

Units affected:
335, 336, 348 (and 999, Nation:0)

[dmnt]

Continuing with XA-361, I have found no proof that Finland had any STRIX ammunition for AMOS or 120mm regular mortars. There are some Spanish made MAT-120 cluster munitions bought by Finland before their production was ceased and STRIX has been stated by FDF as compatible and as an option to be used. It is most probable that at an emerging conflict Finland would buy them from Sweden but currently there are no such ammunition in storage.

This also solves the problem of having a direct firing STRIX unit if dual purpose unit is created for human players.

XA-361-AMOS has currently the same armor values as Patria AMV even though the AMV is in IFV configuration and most probably way ahead of AMOS protection levels.
"Panssarointi ja nbc-suojaus suojaavat käsiaseilta ja kaasuilta" => "Armor and NBC protection protects (sic) from hand guns and gases"

By the sheer weight the AMOS without the tower is 2.5 metric tons lighter than AMV, most probably due to lighter armor.

http://www.puolustusvoimat.fi/wcm/Erikoissivustot/mvh2013/Suomeksi/Uutiset/amos

Remove unit 336.
Modify units 335, 348, (999)
Armor as in XA-203 or -185.

[DRG]

What part of if you want these changed do them yourself, document the change and post them to the mods section was unclear ??. This cannot just be a language issue. Refer to post #8 of this thread and the patch thread. I am not recording these "suggestions"